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Speaker 1: When they are ready, they'll let us know, very simple,

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Speaker 1: ready to do whatever, doesn't make any difference, whatever they

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Speaker 1: want to do. I'm ready. That's the President talking about Iran.

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Speaker 1: And we said to ourselves, we said, we need to

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Speaker 1: talk to somebody who knows a lot about that part

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Speaker 1: of the world, about what could be going on with us.

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Speaker 1: And Ran indeed a lot of strong statements, a lot

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Speaker 1: of talking heads who don't have half an idea what

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Speaker 1: they're talking about. And then you have Ambassador face allil

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Speaker 1: Estra Body, who's the former Iraq Ambassador to the u

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Speaker 1: N one of the authors of that country's constitution and

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Speaker 1: director for the center of Something behind Sean's head. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: the Study of the Middle East at Indiana University. My apologies,

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Speaker 1: Ambassador Alistra Body. How are you, sir? I'm very well,

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Speaker 1: thank you, delighted to be with you again. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's been too long. So why don't we begin with

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Speaker 1: uh Iran and their their recent actions, their motivations, what's

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Speaker 1: their game, what are their goals? Well, I think that

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Speaker 1: a couple of things. One, as is always the case,

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Speaker 1: regime survival is the number one priority. And there are

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Speaker 1: people in the US administration that have given conflicting signals

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Speaker 1: about that. John Bolton, the National Security Advisor, very famously

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Speaker 1: wants regime change in Iran. Now it's interesting because the

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Speaker 1: President has said that he is not interested in regime change.

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Speaker 1: He only wants uh, he only wants UM to ensure

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Speaker 1: that Iran doesn't obtain a nuclear weapon. Now, the problem

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Speaker 1: with that is that the United States is actually transferring

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Speaker 1: nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia as we speak UM, and

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Speaker 1: so Iran will be looking back across the Gulf and saying,

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Speaker 1: uh uh, this doesn't look good for us. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: they were um, actually complying with the terms of the

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Speaker 1: so called Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, which is what

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Speaker 1: the President calls a nuclear deal, and very there is

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Speaker 1: zero evidence that they were not in compliance with those terms.

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Speaker 1: It's the United States which went out of compliance and

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Speaker 1: withdrew unilaterally, couldn't even bring the UH European allies aboard.

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Speaker 1: And so the Uranians are looking at this and saying,

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Speaker 1: what's our incentive for negotiating. We negotiated, we came to

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Speaker 1: an agreement, we abided by an agreement UM, and the

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Speaker 1: other side violated it. So what assurances do we have

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Speaker 1: that if we negotiate again, we won't be in the

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Speaker 1: same position a year, two years, three years down the road. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's uh. It's one thing to renegotiate, it's another to

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Speaker 1: withdraw and reinstitute sanctions without a justification under the original

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Speaker 1: agreement at least um and then expect the other side

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Speaker 1: to negotiate again. It's it's a very tricky situation. The

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Speaker 1: President has put the US in um and the Iranians

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Speaker 1: aren't playing his game. Well, maybe that was the problem

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Speaker 1: with the agreement. I was watching Senator Mark Rubio make

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Speaker 1: a point yesterday that while they were in a compliance

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Speaker 1: with the agreement, as you just said, with the specifics

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Speaker 1: that we discussed, they were not in compliance with the

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Speaker 1: spirit of the agreement, and that they were continuing to

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Speaker 1: be the world's number one exporter of terror and be

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Speaker 1: involved in a bunch of things that we don't like. So,

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Speaker 1: how do you how do we do with that? Well,

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Speaker 1: the you deal with that as such? You don't that made.

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Speaker 1: First of all, there's no such thing as a spirit

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Speaker 1: of an agreement. There's there's an agreement, and there are

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Speaker 1: terms of an agreement. And Senator Rubio knows that UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, you would be hard if if you had

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Speaker 1: made every payment on your on your mortgage on time

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Speaker 1: and in the proper amount. UM. You would feel mightily

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Speaker 1: put upon if your mortgage company foreclosed on your house

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Speaker 1: because it felt you were not in compliance with the

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Speaker 1: spirit of the mortgage agreement. There there are terms of

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Speaker 1: a mortgage agreement, and if you're either comply or you don't.

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Speaker 1: This is an international agreement that is sanctioned by UM

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Speaker 1: six countries seven if you include Iran, but five some

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Speaker 1: of America's closest allies, and the United Nations Security Council,

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Speaker 1: on which the United States sits, where it along with

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Speaker 1: four other powers, has a veto. You have never had

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Speaker 1: a guest on your show more critical of the Iranian

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Speaker 1: government and of its actions in the Middle East than I.

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Speaker 1: There may be others who hold it in the same

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Speaker 1: lower regard the government of Iran as I do, but

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Speaker 1: you've never had one that has holds it in lower

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Speaker 1: regard than I do. UM. But this isn't a game

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Speaker 1: of monopoly. This this is you know, playing at at

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Speaker 1: the highest level in the international community. And there's ways

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Speaker 1: of doing things. And what the President did in unilaterally

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Speaker 1: withdrawing US generally, is not it, particularly because I can't

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Speaker 1: tell what the strategy behind the United States actions is.

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Speaker 1: I know what the steps they're taking are, but sanctions

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Speaker 1: are not a policy. What's the policy. I happen to

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Speaker 1: agree with the President's point of view on the previous agreement,

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Speaker 1: but walking away from it is an enormous gamble, by

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Speaker 1: the way, Donald Trump, candidate Donald Trump, agreed with that. Yeah. Look,

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Speaker 1: Jim Mattis general matters of former Secretary of Defense was

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Speaker 1: against the agreement, he thought, and he was out of

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Speaker 1: government at the time, of course, and he thought the

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Speaker 1: agreement that the Obama administration entered into was it was

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Speaker 1: a mistake. But he also thought withdraw and testified in

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Speaker 1: Congress when he was still Secretary of Defense that it

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Speaker 1: was it would be a strategic mistake for the United

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Speaker 1: States to withdraw. And the problem and Trump said that

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Speaker 1: as well. Well. What he said, he said it differently

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Speaker 1: when he was a candidate. What he said was it's

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Speaker 1: an international agreement. It involves our allies, and you can't

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Speaker 1: just walk away from an international agreement. He's right about that.

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Speaker 1: But if you do walk away, you would have thought

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Speaker 1: you would do it in a way that would bring

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Speaker 1: the allies on board, so there would be international support

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Speaker 1: other than Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the United Air Emirates.

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Speaker 1: The United States has no support for what for what

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Speaker 1: it did in walking away from the agreement, and therefore

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Speaker 1: no way. You know, the United States maybe the sort

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Speaker 1: of eight hundred pound guerrilla in international affairs. But as

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Speaker 1: as Vietnam proved, I think two generations ago, our generation ago, um,

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Speaker 1: the United States still can't do it alone. It's it's

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Speaker 1: not strong enough to take on the entire world. Um,

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Speaker 1: it needs allies to get its strategic objections objectives. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: it's strategic objectives accomplished. And here I don't even think

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Speaker 1: we know what those objectives are. How about we start

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Speaker 1: at the at the well at the top of this discussion,

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Speaker 1: which would be Iran getting a nuclear weapon. Is that

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Speaker 1: something we should you hold them in low and low regard.

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Speaker 1: Is that something we should just not allow, no matter

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Speaker 1: what the price is to pay, We just cannot let

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Speaker 1: Iran have a nuclear weapon. Well, believe me as someone

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Speaker 1: as you know, in your introduction you played out I

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Speaker 1: was an ambassador from Iran's from the country that shares

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Speaker 1: a thousand mile border with Iran. I am the last

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Speaker 1: one that wants to see Iran with a nuclear weapon,

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Speaker 1: but to to get us to that state, it would

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Speaker 1: help if the United States weren't transferring nuclear arms technology

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Speaker 1: to Saudi Arabia, Iran's chief rival in the region, and

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Speaker 1: we're also transferring nuclear technology. United States is transferring technology

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Speaker 1: to the United Arab Emirates as well, um another rival,

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Speaker 1: although a much relatively minor arrival compared to Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 1: Quick question about that if forgive me for interjecting, but

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Speaker 1: is the hatred, the fear between Iran and Saudi Arabia

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Speaker 1: primarily theological? The political? Sonny are So it's it's just

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Speaker 1: your good old yeah. So you had to say it's

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Speaker 1: it's geopolitics. A lot of the talking heads you were

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Speaker 1: talking about it when you were introducing the topic. You can't,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can't think about the Middle East without

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Speaker 1: thinking about religion. It's politics. When the Shah was was

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Speaker 1: was running Iran back until nine when the Middlers came

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Speaker 1: to power, you had the same tensions between him and

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Speaker 1: the other states, and he was as secular as you

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Speaker 1: I could hope for um. But so it's uh. But

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Speaker 1: by the way, if you want to know who started

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Speaker 1: the Iranian nuclear program, it would be a minor, little

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Speaker 1: country you might have heard of called the United States

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Speaker 1: of America. Well, I've made mistakes through my life too,

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Speaker 1: I understand that. So whenever I hear about the nuclear

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Speaker 1: transfers we're doing the Saudi Arabia always sort of in

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Speaker 1: the back of my mind think what could go wrong?

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Speaker 1: Ambassador facilel Istra, body is on the line from Iraq

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Speaker 1: ambassador to the U N Obviously we haven't mentioned a

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Speaker 1: little country there by the Dead Sea Israel. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: certainly have a voice in the region and have made

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Speaker 1: it utterly clear that they're not gonna wait till there's

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Speaker 1: a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv. They're going to strike Iran.

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Speaker 1: Do you take them at the word? Um? Not really

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Speaker 1: for a technical reason. Um, they don't have the hardware

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Speaker 1: to do what would be necessary to do to take

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Speaker 1: out a any Iran any restarted Irani and nuclear program.

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Speaker 1: Um they there are they They were able to take

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Speaker 1: out the Iraqi program back in the eighty two. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember now because uh, well, the Iranians learned from

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Speaker 1: the lesson that Iraq, the mistakes Iraq made, Um, they

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Speaker 1: would need to First of all, they don't have a

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Speaker 1: refueling ability, they don't have the heavy bombers. They don't

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Speaker 1: have the heavy bombs. Um. It's the basically the only

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Speaker 1: country that can do this as a United States. Which

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Speaker 1: is why I ne who's been trying to get the

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Speaker 1: US to do it for for for years. He's been

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Speaker 1: saying for more than a decade that Iran is a

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Speaker 1: year away from a nuclear bomb. Which is the odd

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Speaker 1: thing about withdrawing from the deal because the deal, for

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Speaker 1: all all its flaws, and I agree with you, it's

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Speaker 1: a it was a very flawed deal. Um. George W.

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Speaker 1: Bush walked away in two thousand and four. I think

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Speaker 1: it was from a much stronger deal. He refused to

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Speaker 1: sort of pull the trigger and make an agreement with

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Speaker 1: the Iranians, and the Iranians just kept working, and by

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Speaker 1: the time Obama made his deal in two thousand fifteen,

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Speaker 1: the terms of the deal were much less in the

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Speaker 1: favor of the United States than if the United States

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Speaker 1: had made an agreement with Iran in two thousand four.

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Speaker 1: But that's the that's the hand uh we were dealt UM.

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Speaker 1: I agree with strengthening the deal. I think there was

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Speaker 1: a way to try to make the deal a little

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Speaker 1: more permanent or more permanent or permanent, and to bring

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Speaker 1: Iran within compliance with what's called the Additional Protocol Hall

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Speaker 1: of the Non Proliferation Treaty. But a unilateral withdrawal without

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Speaker 1: the support even of the European Allies, much less Russia

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Speaker 1: and China as permanent members of the Security Council, I

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Speaker 1: don't think was the way to do it. So I've

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Speaker 1: been reading a lot about the leader of the uh

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Speaker 1: Airb Emirates m S what's mb zz and and his

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Speaker 1: and his role in the Middle East, and now he

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Speaker 1: and MBS with Saudi Arabia are working together to try

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Speaker 1: to eliminate a Ran. So, uh this is a really

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Speaker 1: high stakes game, isn't it. It's an extremely high stakes game,

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Speaker 1: and it's unfortunately one that the US is getting drawn into.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think there's a happy outcome for the

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Speaker 1: United States to be involved in these sorts of regional

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Speaker 1: regional disputes. The Crown Prince of the U a E

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Speaker 1: Is mb Z Mohammed bin zayat Um, and he is

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Speaker 1: sort of rumored to be kind of the mentor of

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Speaker 1: the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. They're both, they both

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Speaker 1: have the titles of Crown Prince, and they both run

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Speaker 1: their respective countries for a variety of reasons. UM. And

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Speaker 1: they are indeed taking on Iran. Keep in mind, they

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Speaker 1: have been trying to take on the whole sees of

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Speaker 1: Yemen for what is it for or five years now.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly when the bombing started. I think

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Speaker 1: it was two thousand and fourteen, it might have been fifteen, UM.

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Speaker 1: And they haven't been able to take on a rebel

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Speaker 1: group in a little country like Yemen, which they regard

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Speaker 1: that little rebel group as one of Iran's proxies. If

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Speaker 1: they can't take them on effectively, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: they're going to take Iran effectively. And one of my

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Speaker 1: real fears. And keep in mind, I know you introduced

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Speaker 1: me as an Iraqi ambassador, and I was, but I'm

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Speaker 1: also a natural born citizen of the United States. I'm

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Speaker 1: a natural born citizen of both countries. So as an

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Speaker 1: American citizen born in the United States, I'm really concerned

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Speaker 1: that that that one or two regional powers in the

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Speaker 1: Middle East have a real interest in trying to draw

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Speaker 1: the United States into an armed conflict with Iran, and

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Speaker 1: I see no uh no United States national security interest

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Speaker 1: in getting into a shooting war with Iran, though improving

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Speaker 1: the deal with Iran is certainly in the American interest

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Speaker 1: if it can be done through diplomacy. Facil Istrobody, former

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Speaker 1: Rock Ambassador to the u N Director to the Center

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Speaker 1: for the Study of the Middle East at Indiana University, Sir,

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Speaker 1: it's always enlightening. We sure appreciate the time. Thanks a million.

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Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure. I enjoy it very much. Thank you. Okay,

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Speaker 1: follow up discussion, cetera. To come stay with us.