Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by b Dratty. It
Speaker 1: is the holiday season. Amazing, it's here again. I can't
Speaker 1: believe how quick this year went. But we have a
Speaker 1: fully stocked pro shop, thanks in many part to be Dratty.
Speaker 1: We have some of our favorite items in the shop
Speaker 1: available for purchase for you and your loved ones this
Speaker 1: this holiday season, or your friends that love the frieda Egg.
Speaker 1: You know, get them, get them, get that keeps giving merchandise.
Speaker 1: So a few of our favorite items that we have
Speaker 1: in there. I love the Liam Polo that's my uh,
Speaker 1: that's my jam. I like the pocket I think it
Speaker 1: looks really good. The Peruvian cotton is just unbelievable, so soft,
Speaker 1: so comfortable styling too. It look good if you got
Speaker 1: to go to like Bronch aft you play golf, you
Speaker 1: do want to be the guy wearing like the you know,
Speaker 1: heavy performance gear when you go meet your wife for
Speaker 1: Brounch after golf. But anyway, also, you know another item
Speaker 1: I love, especially this time of year, is the Russell
Speaker 1: quarter zip. Thing is like your favorite sweatshirt turned into
Speaker 1: something that's acceptable to wear. Everywhere, so you know, you
Speaker 1: can wear this thing to work, you can wear it
Speaker 1: on your couch on Sunday. It's so comfortable you feel
Speaker 1: like you're wearing just like a regular sweatshirt.
Speaker 2: So recommend that one.
Speaker 1: They're both available in the shop as well as we
Speaker 1: have a bunch of Fairway and Green Gear, pullovers, vests, polos, and.
Speaker 2: Also have a bunch of zer Gear.
Speaker 1: So we got some pullovers and some vests, some jackets
Speaker 1: even and that all with a Friday logo.
Speaker 2: Check it out.
Speaker 1: We've got the photoprints up there too, and we're going
Speaker 1: to extend the Cyber Monday deal just because this POD's
Speaker 1: dropping now till Wednesday, So if you get on and
Speaker 1: use the code cyber Monday Junior, you'll get twenty percent
Speaker 1: off order. What a great deal. Andrew supporting, supporting the pod,
Speaker 1: supporting the website. Today's guest is Keith reb Keith was
Speaker 1: one of the first guests in Fridagg history. It was
Speaker 1: when we had a lot worse audio quality. I didn't
Speaker 1: really know what I was doing then, and Keith was
Speaker 1: gracious enough to join me. I was in his hometown
Speaker 1: winter park for a quick afternoon. We actually recorded this
Speaker 1: right outside the golf course. We were just sitting there
Speaker 1: watching people tee off pac golf course, and we talked
Speaker 1: a lot about what's been going on with Keith. The
Speaker 1: smashing success of winter Park, even more success than the
Speaker 1: last time we had talked, his new project of forest
Speaker 1: Dunes with Riley John's and then as well as his
Speaker 1: restoration work at Rolling Green, and then kind of life
Speaker 1: balancing between being a shaper for Corn Crunshaw and building
Speaker 1: out his own design business. So, without further ado, here
Speaker 1: is Keith rep I miss a green.
Speaker 3: For example, I'm already upset when I find my ball
Speaker 3: in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 4: And when I find my ball in a bright egg
Speaker 4: Frida eggad Frida egg Frida egg bride egg lie.
Speaker 3: I'm about ready to run off the the.
Speaker 2: Keith, you're back early podcast.
Speaker 4: Yeah, impromptu podcast at winter Park.
Speaker 2: So we're literally enjoying the park or just sitting here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a a it's a beautiful day. It's
Speaker 4: good to see that you survive the possum attack. I
Speaker 4: don't see any signs of rabies or anything here, so
Speaker 4: so that's good. No no wounds.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm city fulk I'm a new new member of
Speaker 1: the suburbs. So the possum it's a frightening thing to
Speaker 1: be walking around during the day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they do have vicious teeth, they can.
Speaker 2: I was doing it mostly for my dog.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there we go.
Speaker 2: People. People have been giving me a lot of crap.
Speaker 4: It was pretty funny, I would have to say. I laughed.
Speaker 4: I laughed quite a while about that one. That was
Speaker 4: a good That was some good internet content there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my wife likes to follow me around and whenever
Speaker 1: I'm doing anything remotely interesting, film it just in case.
Speaker 2: It looked ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It's uh so what's uh, what's the new? You've been
Speaker 1: so we you were probably like I think our fourth
Speaker 1: or fifth podcast ever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, Lisa, uh went uphill from there. I guess
Speaker 4: after that point. You know, you you upgraded your equipment,
Speaker 4: and now you've upgraded a lot of things the company
Speaker 4: and we.
Speaker 2: Have significantly improve the audio quality.
Speaker 4: That is spot on. Yeah, you know, and uh you know,
Speaker 4: I remember I also remember seeing a couple of your
Speaker 4: early drone footages. I think when you took it might
Speaker 4: be your first the winter park. Yeah, first uh drone footage.
Speaker 4: I had to put it in a photoshop to actually
Speaker 4: uh make the photo even I think it was like
Speaker 4: off by like maybe eight or nine percent or so.
Speaker 1: It's possible that footage is still on the internet and
Speaker 1: it was. It was it was basically like the camera.
Speaker 1: It was diagonal. But a lot's changed here. Yeah at
Speaker 1: winter Park since uh since that footage.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's yeah, it's I mean they are. They keep
Speaker 4: on breaking their records every every year. So it's it's
Speaker 4: been exciting and the city's still investing in it. Invested
Speaker 4: ninety dollars in it last year. We did some upgrades
Speaker 4: and they're getting ready to do another investment next year
Speaker 4: on this whole patio area that we're sitting on them
Speaker 4: and has some lounge chairs, a couple of TVs and
Speaker 4: just kind of make it more of a hang HEREM
Speaker 4: so excited about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the it's amazing because you go to I visit
Speaker 1: public courses and it's Thursday afternoon and just a constant
Speaker 1: cycle down the first d the course is back. You're
Speaker 1: driving up and there's people on every hall and it's
Speaker 1: just a completely different site than than most American golf
Speaker 1: courses and especially municipal golf courses, where you know, Thursday
Speaker 1: Thursday at this time is is kind of a.
Speaker 4: Closing the doors, locking up and heading home because no
Speaker 4: one's showing up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun. I like to go because non base around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can zip around. But uh, the so what I
Speaker 1: guess when you think about it now that you're a
Speaker 1: resident of winter Park too, that's the news.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I live back here in winter Park, about
Speaker 4: ten minutes away from the golf course. So it's uh,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, we we tried to go somewhere
Speaker 4: else for a while and then realize that a lot
Speaker 4: of the things that we enjoyed about this area we
Speaker 4: kind of missed. So we're we're back here. That's great.
Speaker 1: When you built this place, I'm sure you thought it
Speaker 1: could be something like this, but did you ever envision
Speaker 1: it being this successful?
Speaker 4: Not at all? And it was you know, I mean
Speaker 4: to say that, like to think that would be a
Speaker 4: goal for it to be this successful. I mean, of
Speaker 4: course it would be. You know, we want this to
Speaker 4: be successful, but you know, we just really wanted to
Speaker 4: build a cool course for the residents of Winter Park
Speaker 4: in this area and never thought that it would kind
Speaker 4: of become a little bit of a you know, kind
Speaker 4: of a role model to other municipal golf courses of
Speaker 4: what they could be. So it's been very exciting to
Speaker 4: see the success of this and the effort that is
Speaker 4: Superintendent and his crew and all the people here are
Speaker 4: working at winter Park or put their blood, sweat and
Speaker 4: tears into this place to make it successful too. It's
Speaker 4: it's not just us building something here, but it's also
Speaker 4: the people that take care of it after you leave,
Speaker 4: and and they take a lot of pride in this place.
Speaker 4: And and I mean you can see it here every day,
Speaker 4: the people working in the pro shop and you know
Speaker 4: the name, they know the names of all the members
Speaker 4: and the people that play here all the time, and
Speaker 4: it's just, uh, it's it's uh, it's community, you know.
Speaker 1: And talk a little bit about from the maintenance standpoint, obviously,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a different golf course to maintain than
Speaker 1: it used to be.
Speaker 2: Were there any anything that when you were kind of.
Speaker 1: Early years of of the new golf course where you
Speaker 1: had to kind of hone in and and and work
Speaker 1: with you know, either on the architecture or on the
Speaker 1: on the maintenance practices.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you know, with the Bermuda grass, you know,
Speaker 4: it takes it takes some time to just establish over
Speaker 4: the years, so you know, I mean it's it's started,
Speaker 4: it started to get to that point where it's really
Speaker 4: established and it's rooted down and it's it's it can
Speaker 4: take the wear and tear. And I mean some of
Speaker 4: the things that we've seen too, is a lot of
Speaker 4: the shade issues with some of the trees in the
Speaker 4: in the around the course that need to be trimmed up,
Speaker 4: and a few needed to be removed mainly because of
Speaker 4: tree health too, that they just deteriorated and it's time
Speaker 4: for the tree to go. And now that just has
Speaker 4: helped the turf immensely, so you know, and just uh,
Speaker 4: I mean, the one thing we're seeing is just so
Speaker 4: many people out here playing that we we now need
Speaker 4: to look back at some of these teas that we
Speaker 4: built and we need to build bigger teas just to
Speaker 4: handle the wear and tear.
Speaker 1: So I remember Bill talking about that with the sandbox
Speaker 1: versus the preserve, how he didn't realize how popular the
Speaker 1: preserve would be and how much more tea space he needed.
Speaker 1: And you know with the sandboxy that was one of
Speaker 1: the big stresses is how much T space you need.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so I mean over even so in May
Speaker 4: next year we this whole, like I said, this whole
Speaker 4: first tea area is gonna all get redone too, and
Speaker 4: we're gonna we're going to established get some more T
Speaker 4: space here on the first first tea and make a
Speaker 4: new putting putting green area and just kind of shift
Speaker 4: a few these areas around. We got plans to add
Speaker 4: more tea space and a little bit of a different
Speaker 4: angle on number seven and and also on whole number eight.
Speaker 4: So and then this year we added more T space
Speaker 4: on whole number five too.
Speaker 1: So it's just you're you're tweaking things like Jack tweaks
Speaker 1: Memorial every day every year. You know, You're you're like
Speaker 1: the the Winter Parks, Jack Nicholas, just making tweaks.
Speaker 2: Every year after the after the FGA show.
Speaker 1: So you've been busy, Yeah, but you've been doing a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. You've been in uh been in uh
Speaker 1: Abandon at the Sheet Branch, You've been in Hawaii Capalua.
Speaker 1: You you and Riley are got designed number two under
Speaker 1: you know, grassed and and sleeping right now with winter,
Speaker 1: but it'll be ready to be open next year at
Speaker 1: Forest Duds a short course up there. Uh, tell tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about uh the second solo gig
Speaker 1: with you and Riley and and kind of uh that
Speaker 1: opportunity and I know it came together pretty quick.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a phone call that
Speaker 4: Riley and I got. We were sitting in San Francisco
Speaker 4: at that time. We landed and I got this message
Speaker 4: on my phone and I called Lou back and and man,
Speaker 4: he's just you know, hey, I'd like you guys to
Speaker 4: come out and you know, build a short course for me.
Speaker 4: And we were like, well, we're kind of busy right now.
Speaker 4: We're trying to figure out how we can. You know,
Speaker 4: we were almost like kind of almost turning it down
Speaker 4: because we had commitments with other people and we didn't
Speaker 4: want to, you know, bail out on them. So and uh,
Speaker 4: once I got out there to to Forest Dunes and
Speaker 4: took a look at the site that that Lou was
Speaker 4: wanting to build on, and yeah, I just you know,
Speaker 4: and there was there was an opportunity something pretty cool there.
Speaker 4: So and yeah, it really did happen fast. I mean
Speaker 4: it was basically eighty one days from like start to
Speaker 4: start to finish. Basically and grasped out and that in
Speaker 4: that time and tree clearing, shaping and grass and I
Speaker 4: mean irrigation everything. So it was, uh, you know, Lou
Speaker 4: had everything keyed up and and then ready to go.
Speaker 4: And Mark Loots, the the GM there, he just helped,
Speaker 4: you know, kind of just whatever we needed he got,
Speaker 4: he got it done for us. So and it was
Speaker 4: it was great working with all the apt there and
Speaker 4: everybody that helped out in the course, and it was
Speaker 4: part of the reason it was successful because everyone collaborated
Speaker 4: and worked together.
Speaker 1: So it's that's got to be a tough thing with
Speaker 1: being a you know, younger architect where you're you're trying
Speaker 1: to make sure you have somewhere to work, but then
Speaker 1: you have opportunities to come up, and you know, when
Speaker 1: you make commitments, you obviously got.
Speaker 2: To honor most of them.
Speaker 1: So you talk a little bit about over the years
Speaker 1: becoming you know, more of a name and architecture and
Speaker 1: and some of the you know, deciding where to go
Speaker 1: and why to go.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's it is a balancing act and
Speaker 4: you never want to bail out on someone and and
Speaker 4: and also you know with I also work with core
Speaker 4: Crunshaw too, so that that that puts in a whole nother,
Speaker 4: a whole other layer of making sure you balance your
Speaker 4: time and you're not, you know, best dealing on someone
Speaker 4: where you say, well this is a better course, I'd
Speaker 4: be better here and leave that. So it's, uh, it's
Speaker 4: it's one thing I find is a big challenge once
Speaker 4: you get those phone calls and and but you just
Speaker 4: have to be upfront with them and say, you know,
Speaker 4: this is the time that we can do this, and
Speaker 4: if you want to commit to that time, then then
Speaker 4: let's go forward. But if if there's not, then we
Speaker 4: have to you know, hold the hold to our commitments.
Speaker 4: And and it does help that with Riley and I,
Speaker 4: with being two of us, that we can kind of
Speaker 4: balance a lot of these things too. And I see
Speaker 4: that as a huge asset of going into this too.
Speaker 1: So I imagine since both of you guys are are so
Speaker 1: well versed in the field, having both worked a ton
Speaker 1: in the field, that it's nice that you know, it's
Speaker 1: a partnership where if one of you can't be there,
Speaker 1: you got full trust in the other one to be
Speaker 1: able to get the field work done and build it
Speaker 1: to the you know, the standard you guys have Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's uh, yeah, that that really helps, just to
Speaker 4: have someone to collaborate with and bounce ideas off of,
Speaker 4: and and also have someone that challenges you and things too.
Speaker 4: You know, if if you have an idea and it's
Speaker 4: a little different from the other person, you have to
Speaker 4: kind of you know, go to go to bat for
Speaker 4: your idea and then then it's either it happens or don't.
Speaker 4: But it's never one of those things where we walk
Speaker 4: away from angry at each other.
Speaker 1: What's an example of, say, maybe one of your ideas
Speaker 1: that you guys worked with, you know, you maybe that
Speaker 1: adapted thanks to the collaboration between you guys.
Speaker 4: I would I would say one of the examples is, uh,
Speaker 4: out here at Winter Park is a whole number six,
Speaker 4: you know, the lion's mouth, Yeah, the lion's mouth. You know,
Speaker 4: we're we're trying to get an idea of how we
Speaker 4: wanted it to be more of a punch bowl feel
Speaker 4: to it. But if it had too much of a
Speaker 4: punch bowl, then then it's not gonna have positive drainage
Speaker 4: out of that, and it could cause you know, turf
Speaker 4: issues and decline and stuff. So we're trying to find
Speaker 4: that right balance of having something really neat but yet
Speaker 4: not making it to where it's going to be a
Speaker 4: challenge for the supernility. Yes, yeah, I mean if you
Speaker 4: build something really cool and it can't survive and then
Speaker 4: it's gonna look it's not gonna look good, and then
Speaker 4: then people take notice of that.
Speaker 2: So you got the question is that super cool?
Speaker 4: If it if it? If it doesn't. So so I
Speaker 4: think that was something that we both were looking at,
Speaker 4: and you know, we both came with both of our concerns,
Speaker 4: and I think, you know, at the end, it it's uh,
Speaker 4: you know, I think it's what Ed says is probably
Speaker 4: one of his best greens out here with quality turf,
Speaker 4: and and it's it's a fun hole to play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think definitely one of the most memorable ones
Speaker 1: that I think most people remember.
Speaker 2: Obviously.
Speaker 1: It's it's just such a distinct and unique green and
Speaker 1: uh fun one because you can play it so many
Speaker 1: different ways and with so many different shots. It's so
Speaker 1: with with Forrest Dun you know, you're designing resort with
Speaker 1: two other golf courses and uh, how's the you know,
Speaker 1: what are the characteristics of the short course that will
Speaker 1: be unique to the to the resort other than it
Speaker 1: being short.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think I think a lot of
Speaker 4: the greens are going to be very receptive the shots
Speaker 4: and kind of almost like a catcher's mint a bit,
Speaker 4: you know. I mean, when you play at the Loop,
Speaker 4: it's it's a lot of fun, but you got to
Speaker 4: make sure you're hitting the right shot into those greens
Speaker 4: or you're gonna get rejected, you know. So I think
Speaker 4: it's uh, I think, you know, I think one thing
Speaker 4: with Riley and I like we like to do too
Speaker 4: is kind of like get an idea who the people
Speaker 4: are playing the course. And that's one thing that we
Speaker 4: did here at Winna Park is kind of just almost
Speaker 4: sit here and watch the people that played the course,
Speaker 4: and we could see the people that were coming to
Speaker 4: visit Forest Dunes and and even the members that are
Speaker 4: members there and watching them and seeing them. They needed
Speaker 4: something like in the evenings to go hit some shots
Speaker 4: and go have some have a few drinks with buddies
Speaker 4: and just bet and just forget about score and just
Speaker 4: just laid laid back golf and and and then also
Speaker 4: just a place too for where the kids can go
Speaker 4: kick around a couple of shots too, and and and
Speaker 4: and and enjoy just going out there on their own.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's in a part of the
Speaker 1: country that's not but golf could be like a wonderful
Speaker 1: activity for so many people around there. You know, I've
Speaker 1: I've went up to Ross Common when I was a
Speaker 1: kid doing you know, some projects with like some work projects,
Speaker 1: work camp projects, and it's a it's a beautiful part
Speaker 1: of the country and you know, definitely could be a
Speaker 1: great thing for the community, more so than you know,
Speaker 1: the big golf courses.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's you know, a way to enter
Speaker 4: into the game there. And you know, I think it
Speaker 4: would be cool to kind of get the the community
Speaker 4: to come out. Maybe the kids have a tournament there
Speaker 4: that's just local tournament that that are ten and under
Speaker 4: or something like that, hit shots around the short course.
Speaker 1: Do you do you know, if they're going to do
Speaker 1: any sort of community uh deal with with the short course.
Speaker 4: Or you know, I think I think there's still there's
Speaker 4: some there's some some ideas kicking around about something like that,
Speaker 4: maybe even a little tournament or something like that that
Speaker 4: could be played up there. And and uh, yeah, you
Speaker 4: know it was it was cool when we were building
Speaker 4: it that, you know, lose one of his biggest things
Speaker 4: that what he said why he wanted to do to
Speaker 4: the short course was to have a place for his
Speaker 4: grandkids to come out and play with him. And and
Speaker 4: and we had the his grandkids were out there playing,
Speaker 4: and then Janelle had his step kids out there, and
Speaker 4: and uh, we were out there. They were out there
Speaker 4: hitting shots and playing in dirt golf, you know, and
Speaker 4: and it was just cool to see them and them
Speaker 4: picking different places where they wanted a t uf from
Speaker 4: and and hit the ball from, and just and just
Speaker 4: seeing that joy of of not worrying about anything but
Speaker 4: just having fun with friends and not worrying about, hey,
Speaker 4: what was your last score on this hole or something
Speaker 4: like that, and I want to lose a jagger. He uh,
Speaker 4: he hit a shot on whole number seven and he
Speaker 4: he hit the flagstick. So we basically said, like in
Speaker 4: dirt golf, if you hit the flag stick, like that's
Speaker 4: a hole in one. So you know, so he's got
Speaker 4: the first one one on the short course out there,
Speaker 4: So that's awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, dirt golf, you gotta have a little bit different
Speaker 1: roles in regular golf.
Speaker 4: I mean, he just he flew that and he just
Speaker 4: hit right on the flagstick. I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 4: I'm like, we got to go and make this. I
Speaker 4: thought we were making this maybe too hard, and now
Speaker 4: we gotta make a little more hard for them.
Speaker 1: So this, I think that's well. Winter Park is in
Speaker 1: a short course. A short course. It's a nine hole
Speaker 1: golf course. Yeah, you know, there's part five, there's part four,
Speaker 1: but it's shorter. The thing that it does is it
Speaker 1: makes it keeps people together and it allows generations of
Speaker 1: people to spend less time apart on the course.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: You know, you're with a shorter hole, You're if if
Speaker 1: you hit it one hundred and fifty yards and somebody
Speaker 1: else hits a three hundred, you're still playing from the
Speaker 1: about the same place and walking together. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that's I mean, the huge benefit to it. It's
Speaker 1: just so much more of a social game when when
Speaker 1: the courses are smaller.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's I mean I see it all the
Speaker 4: time just driving by the course and just seeing the
Speaker 4: different groups and just people having conversations and you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's it's uh. I think I think anybody could
Speaker 4: drive by here right now and just see how pack
Speaker 4: this place is, and uh, and and and and think, man,
Speaker 4: we need to have this and why isn't my local
Speaker 4: municipal course this packed? I mean.
Speaker 1: And the thing that this is doing, too, I think,
Speaker 1: in the bigger scale of it eventually, is is that
Speaker 1: it's not you're not spending money on golf. You're improving
Speaker 1: an asset that in this case is making the community money.
Speaker 1: You know, it is not most people look at golf
Speaker 1: as a well, we're losing money, but we're providing a service.
Speaker 1: And here you're providing a service and the and it's
Speaker 1: making money for the community.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and and and then they're reinvesting in that back
Speaker 4: in the golf course. And it just you know, I
Speaker 4: mean the putting course is a perfect example of that,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean it was it was so packed
Speaker 4: that we had to double the size of the putting
Speaker 4: course for the for the kids. And and that's free
Speaker 4: to the whole community. You'll you can be you can
Speaker 4: go over there right now and you'll see people just
Speaker 4: walking up with their putter and three balls and just
Speaker 4: throw down and just put around for a little while.
Speaker 4: You'll see families there and and that's that's uh, that's
Speaker 4: just really neat to see and yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 4: it's it's also helped the city as they look at
Speaker 4: going on to do other project in the city to
Speaker 4: show that, hey, look how successful this has been. I
Speaker 4: think they've rebranded their tennis courts, you know, kind of
Speaker 4: seen the same things that that Winter Park's done here
Speaker 4: with a few of the the rebrand you know, the
Speaker 4: logos and stuff, and they've taken that to some of
Speaker 4: the other projects. So they've seen a hey, this has
Speaker 4: been successful, the taxpayers trust us, and now it makes
Speaker 4: it easier, it makes it easier for us to move
Speaker 4: forward on other projects.
Speaker 1: So it's yeah, I think, I mean, the the big
Speaker 1: thing with with this community is that they they took
Speaker 1: a chance and did something different than what the status
Speaker 1: quo for golf at a municipal at municipal level it was.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that I admire most is in
Speaker 1: a way they're innovators and they're reaping the rewards of
Speaker 1: being the first mover in a you know, a marketplace
Speaker 1: that doesn't really move and and more communities can do it.
Speaker 1: It's it's just a matter of having somebody that has
Speaker 1: the vision to push it that way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's uh, that is a yeah, that's that's
Speaker 4: that's the biggest thing right there is is people wanting
Speaker 4: to getting scared to not make a move, and then
Speaker 4: then their course just uh you know, slowly disintegrates, and
Speaker 4: and then everyone's like, well, look, golf is dying. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and then like, oh, well, here's the developer that comes
Speaker 4: along like, hey, this is this land here, why why
Speaker 4: don't you just go ahead and sell this to us?
Speaker 4: You know, it's we can, we can, we can bring
Speaker 4: more tax base and more tax money in for it.
Speaker 4: Just put condos and then you know, just wipe away
Speaker 4: all this green space and all these cities and and
Speaker 4: and that's what could have happened here. I mean the
Speaker 4: city only owned uh, whole number one and whole number nine.
Speaker 4: And the year that we did went to do the
Speaker 4: construction was the year that they actually paid off the
Speaker 4: loan to from to the family, so they owned all
Speaker 4: the course. So it could have been easy at that
Speaker 4: point to them to just sell off the rest of
Speaker 4: the rest of the golf course. I mean, this land
Speaker 4: is you know, quite valuable. Yeah, and there's now there's
Speaker 4: now condos going up to the right of number seven.
Speaker 4: Now and those places are going for like two point
Speaker 4: five to three point I mean million dollars now. And
Speaker 4: the developer that's doing those condos actually bought a church
Speaker 4: that was there, gave them enough money to rebuild their
Speaker 4: church back further to the property, and now they're putting
Speaker 4: more condos in right next to seven.
Speaker 1: So that was the thing I when I was doing
Speaker 1: research for a about the golf course in my hometown
Speaker 1: that was thinking about closing, is I found there's statistics
Speaker 1: about proximity to golf courses and the value of your home,
Speaker 1: like that alone should entice communities to invest in the
Speaker 1: golf course, because the if you're within a mile of
Speaker 1: a of a golf course, it's something like twenty five
Speaker 1: thousand dollars added value.
Speaker 4: To your home.
Speaker 1: And and from that standpoint, it's just crazy to think, like,
Speaker 1: you know, that alone should be enough to keep a
Speaker 1: lot of golf courses because of the the's just the
Speaker 1: value of the property. And for imagine like the service
Speaker 1: of being able to just walk down the street with
Speaker 1: a putter and they're being a great putting courses. Is
Speaker 1: I mean, what a great little activity to have to
Speaker 1: be able to do for free.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and then you know, and then in the
Speaker 4: evenings when when no one's out here golfing, you can
Speaker 4: see people just walking through the fairways of winter Park
Speaker 4: and just enjoying the walk. And you know, as long
Speaker 4: as the people will clean up after their dogs, they
Speaker 4: can have their dogs out here and run around too.
Speaker 4: You just have to be responsible dog.
Speaker 2: That's good. I'm bringing the dog out next time.
Speaker 4: The So.
Speaker 1: Speaking of you know, what have you now that you've
Speaker 1: been doing solo projects. What have you taken from solo
Speaker 1: work that's made your work as an associate for Corn Crunshaw.
Speaker 4: Oh, that's yeah, that's a good question. Andy. I think
Speaker 4: it's you know, making sure that that that you have
Speaker 4: that you have enough time on site, you know, I
Speaker 4: mean that's the biggest thing. You don't want to be
Speaker 4: pulled to other things to think about that one a
Speaker 4: little bit. But yeah, I mean it's I think it's
Speaker 4: just still attention to detail and it just makes you
Speaker 4: appreciate more the relationships you have with the clubs and
Speaker 4: things like that and building those trusts from the start
Speaker 4: and you kind of see that going into the golf
Speaker 4: course as you start building it. Yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 4: of things I mean, it's still learning every day, you know,
Speaker 4: I mean being out here and working and learning from
Speaker 4: Ryan and learning from different projects, and and I think
Speaker 4: that's I think that's the funnest thing. You never never
Speaker 4: gonna just gonna master the gulf of what's the texture
Speaker 4: that you still learn every day.
Speaker 1: So what's something that you picked up from, say, your
Speaker 1: time at bandon the building the Sheep Ranch.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, with I think the one thing
Speaker 4: I picked up there was just I mean just more
Speaker 4: watching when Bill first approached that site and seeing a
Speaker 4: raw piece of land like that, but also seeing that
Speaker 4: someone's already done something to it, but not having the
Speaker 4: tendency to try to erase what's been done before and
Speaker 4: then try to do your own thing. Seeing him look
Speaker 4: at that piece of property, knowing that someone else did
Speaker 4: work on it, but say this is really good, Like,
Speaker 4: how are we going to work around this stuff and
Speaker 4: utilize these contours and show respect to the other people
Speaker 4: that have been here and worked on it and build
Speaker 4: something cool and neat from there. I think that was
Speaker 4: a really cool thing there, And just I know, it's
Speaker 4: nice there when it's you know, it's nice for me
Speaker 4: to kind of just take the to just go back
Speaker 4: to being creative. I mean not have to think about
Speaker 4: any of the other things that like, oh well, now
Speaker 4: I need to you know, what do I need to
Speaker 4: communicate to the membership or something like that, or or
Speaker 4: things like that, or what do I need to coordinate,
Speaker 4: what do we need to order. I can just be Okay,
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna think about shaping the screen and that's that's. Uh,
Speaker 4: that's nice to kind of just turn your brain off
Speaker 4: and just get creative.
Speaker 1: So that's an interesting thought because in terms of the
Speaker 1: progression of your career, you go and you're gonna continue,
Speaker 1: you know, to get more and more solo projects. But
Speaker 1: in a way, working as an associate in a place
Speaker 1: could actually spur more creativity and your future of work.
Speaker 2: If you, if you say.
Speaker 1: Took, if you did, you know, a couple of months
Speaker 1: as associate every year, you might be a better hour
Speaker 1: architect in the long run.
Speaker 4: Exactly. Yeah, I mean it's I guess I can express
Speaker 4: how much I appreciate, you know, the way Bill and
Speaker 4: Ben allow me to to move in and out of
Speaker 4: core Crnshaw and then when I communicate what you know,
Speaker 4: the hey this is going on, and Bill will be like, hey,
Speaker 4: go get it, you know, go go for it. And
Speaker 4: and that freedom of always having a home with them
Speaker 4: and working with them, it's I mean, I that doesn't
Speaker 4: happen very often. And then I think that's just something
Speaker 4: I can't explain enough about how appreciative I am towards
Speaker 4: Bill and Ben for that opportunity to for them to say, well, hey, well,
Speaker 4: if you're going out on your own, you know, good luck,
Speaker 4: we'll see you later, you know, type.
Speaker 1: Of thing like hey, you're a competitor now, yeah, don't
Speaker 1: let the door.
Speaker 2: Hey yeah.
Speaker 4: Mentality, it's a it's it's something that's it's really cool
Speaker 4: for them to do that, and I think that's I
Speaker 4: think it helps me be a you know, a better
Speaker 4: person just working with Bill and Ben and being around
Speaker 4: them more. The more you can take that time and
Speaker 4: being around them, but I just also just learning, learning
Speaker 4: more and being a sponge from them and taking everything
Speaker 4: in and and see how they approach different things in
Speaker 4: different projects.
Speaker 1: So so something I've been excited to talk to you
Speaker 1: a little bit about because I've listened to you and
Speaker 1: Bill wax poetic about Old Town Club and I hadn't
Speaker 1: been there, and I finally went Wow, And I've just
Speaker 1: I've been you know, working on that project and it
Speaker 1: being such a big part of Bill's you know, kind
Speaker 1: of development into being an architect. What did you pick
Speaker 1: up from Old Town that you kind of see most
Speaker 1: in Bill's work?
Speaker 4: I would say, first of all, I think if you
Speaker 4: go kind of that's when the light bulb kind of
Speaker 4: went on for me and getting more interested and curious
Speaker 4: about architecture and getting you know, and maybe looking at you.
Speaker 2: Know, how long have you been with the corn Crunch
Speaker 2: Eye at that point?
Speaker 4: Well, so I was working with them in two thousand
Speaker 4: and five, but I was with Core, I was with Landscapes,
Speaker 4: I was helping them with at Caraile Golf Club. I
Speaker 4: wasn't with associate, and I started with them trying to
Speaker 4: kind of lose a track of time, but sugar Loaf
Speaker 4: Mountain and then went from sugar Loaf Mountain to help
Speaker 4: at Dormy Club for a while, and then this is
Speaker 4: a little long Hair song. Well then I went to
Speaker 4: Lost Farm Barn Bugle stream Song, and then I went
Speaker 4: to Old Town and then I went to Cabot Cliffs.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it was that's kind of that point where
Speaker 4: I'm like, you know, looking at the history, looking at
Speaker 4: Perry Maxwell, looking at the aha moments of Okay, this
Speaker 4: is why we do these certain things. Is on the
Speaker 4: course is or why Bill would route something, or why
Speaker 4: he would utilize this contour, or why he would give
Speaker 4: you this run up, or or maybe this contour in
Speaker 4: the green has kind of got the It was at
Speaker 4: that moment I'm like, Okay, well, now now I see
Speaker 4: where where the you know, part of the influences of
Speaker 4: what how how much Old Old Town had to effect
Speaker 4: on Bill in his architecture, And and it was just
Speaker 4: it was for me too, the point where I was like,
Speaker 4: you know, looking at the old plans, looking at the
Speaker 4: old aerials, doing the research that done LOMP and looking
Speaker 4: at all the all the research that Dunelp had done
Speaker 4: prior to the work that we started there, and and
Speaker 4: that was that was cool because I mean a lot
Speaker 4: of times you're just on a project where it's a
Speaker 4: new build, you don't have the tipy toe around anything.
Speaker 4: You're just building golf, and this is something where you
Speaker 4: got to, you know, do a little research, and and
Speaker 4: that that got me kind of yeah, like I said,
Speaker 4: the light bulb kind of turned on for me. Personally
Speaker 4: too to get more curious about the architecture side of
Speaker 4: things too.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, that that place is just incredible because you
Speaker 1: look at the routing and what I kind of took
Speaker 1: away was the way I don't know many architects that
Speaker 1: would have routed it the way he routed it over
Speaker 1: those severe landforms, you know a lot of them, I
Speaker 1: feel like would have looked for a way around him,
Speaker 1: and he was just going right over him. And then
Speaker 1: obviously the greens are incredible, but that routing is just unbelievable.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean I think I don't know how
Speaker 4: many acres that you know, they they gave him the
Speaker 4: opportunity to look. It wasn't just like here's where you're
Speaker 4: building this golf.
Speaker 2: Course, like a thousand acres available.
Speaker 4: Thousand acres of like what do you think? You know?
Speaker 4: And you know this is going to go off on
Speaker 4: a little bit of tangent here, But we were trying
Speaker 4: to think about, Okay, so when was Perry Maxwell and
Speaker 4: like in the Philadelphia and he might have been in Philadelphia,
Speaker 4: and we kind of look at like maybe he was
Speaker 4: influenced on some of the courses in Philly, maybe even
Speaker 4: Rolling Green, you know, looking at how William Flynn routed
Speaker 4: and all those guys are kind of talking. It's like,
Speaker 4: did he get influenced a little bit? I mean, that's
Speaker 4: like someone's got to do a little bit, a big,
Speaker 4: bigger dig on on the history there. But you know,
Speaker 4: maybe he went to Rolling Green when in.
Speaker 1: That golf course in uh in Philly. Uh what's it called.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what it is, what the name of
Speaker 1: it is. It's driving, But he was in the area. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was there.
Speaker 2: He designed a course with it.
Speaker 1: They say it's Mackenzie Maxwell, but it's mostly Maxwell. It's
Speaker 1: a you know, public golf course. It's still some of
Speaker 1: it remains. But I agree. The only person that I
Speaker 1: could compare Maxwell in the terms of the way he
Speaker 1: routes courses would be Flynn. Like how natural they were
Speaker 1: and how unafraid they were to use heavy cone, abrupt contours.
Speaker 4: I mean, you look at some of you know, those
Speaker 4: greens at Rolling Green or just yeah, I mean, oh
Speaker 4: well we're going up here, you know, and it's like
Speaker 4: and then the side slopes of the fairways, the canter
Speaker 4: of the fairways, you know, it's like that's what I
Speaker 4: think is so interesting. It's like most people would be like, oh,
Speaker 4: we need to level these fairways out, and he's like, no,
Speaker 4: we're sticking this fairway right on this slope. And you
Speaker 4: got to think about how where you hit your ball
Speaker 4: here and where it's going to run out to is
Speaker 4: the best and just utilizing the land. And I think
Speaker 4: that those are the things that Bill was just like, man,
Speaker 4: he's just taken in and he was saying that there's
Speaker 4: a spot I think it's on number twelve there where
Speaker 4: there's a little building there and there was a gate
Speaker 4: right there, and that's where Bill would sneak through that
Speaker 4: gate right there, and then he would play the course
Speaker 4: through pays i think dollar to play the course and
Speaker 4: then go on. But it's just cool to see, like,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, I guess this might get a
Speaker 4: little kind of like out there, but you know, in life,
Speaker 4: those lord here, yeah, those yeah, those those things in
Speaker 4: life that you don't know the pass that you're taking
Speaker 4: on it and then you're going down this path and
Speaker 4: then knowing how much those little things will influence, you know,
Speaker 4: things down the road. I mean him Bill choosing Wake
Speaker 4: Forest to go there and then having a Perry Maxwell.
Speaker 4: I mean, just look at those things that like, look
Speaker 4: where we're at now, you know, I mean with with
Speaker 4: Bill's designs. I mean it's just.
Speaker 1: That well, I mean you're kind of the same boat
Speaker 1: because you were doing construction work road like road construction,
Speaker 1: doing concrete work.
Speaker 4: But you know, those little things with concrete work and
Speaker 4: and those things I learned from that and running equipment
Speaker 4: then kind of you know, went right into to kind
Speaker 4: of building golf. You know, it's it's a lot easier
Speaker 4: to shape dearth than it is concrete.
Speaker 1: So and you didn't know really anything about golf when
Speaker 1: you started working at Sutton Bay, right, No, No, I
Speaker 1: was I had no.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I barely play, you know, I had
Speaker 4: no introduction into it wasn't a path that I was
Speaker 4: heading down. And and and then just just having the
Speaker 4: opportunity to go work at Sutton Bay and just look
Speaker 4: out at the beauty of the course and and seeing
Speaker 4: it being built and and seeing what goes into it,
Speaker 4: I was just like, Okay, well, I know what I
Speaker 4: want to do now. You know. It's like I just
Speaker 4: want to build golf and and have fun and do
Speaker 4: this and and and and and to be able to
Speaker 4: now sit here and at Winter Park with you and discuss.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's I can't tell you how much I'm
Speaker 4: just appreciative of all the people that have helped me
Speaker 4: through and and inspired me to be here where I
Speaker 4: am now. I mean, it's it is, it's it's pretty cool.
Speaker 4: I mean just to sit here right now and see
Speaker 4: like five people on the putting green putting around right now,
Speaker 4: someone's teeing off, and seeing this place packed, you know.
Speaker 1: That's got to never get all the seeing people playing
Speaker 1: the course that you've built.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's it is a it is a it
Speaker 4: is a cool thing and and it's the one thing
Speaker 4: while I'm glad, I'm glad I'm back here in winter
Speaker 4: Park to be so close to here and and to
Speaker 4: continue just to see this place grow and it's it's exciting.
Speaker 1: So yeah, with you know, I uh, back to you know,
Speaker 1: old town for a second. The one thing, do you
Speaker 1: do you see a lot from those greens that remind
Speaker 1: you of greens that you've you've watched Bill build over
Speaker 1: the year?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. I was like that's
Speaker 4: that was the first things I'm like, okay, well, this
Speaker 4: little kind of Perry Maxwell roll here, you know, like Okay, well,
Speaker 4: this is this is something I've seen before and built
Speaker 4: and and and in some of the tier greens and
Speaker 4: stuff like that, and and the run ups and the
Speaker 4: false fronts, and I mean it was it was it
Speaker 4: was a cool, cool thing to see. And and then
Speaker 4: the bunker style, I mean you know, I mean you
Speaker 4: know when we first got there, those bunkers have been
Speaker 4: I mean they were perfect circles. I mean, there was
Speaker 4: no character. It was. It was it was like, oh, well,
Speaker 4: we need to make this easy to maintenance, for maintenance
Speaker 4: and maintaining it, which is understandable. You don't want to
Speaker 4: have something that's unmaintainable. And then as a stressor. But
Speaker 4: when you go so far on the spectrum to where
Speaker 4: it's zero maintenance bunker, it just wipes all the character
Speaker 4: out of what was there before and and and scratching
Speaker 4: back that that creativity and bringing that back in. I
Speaker 4: mean you could just look at where Old Town was
Speaker 4: before the renovation. I mean they were way off the
Speaker 4: list of top one hundred classic courses, I think, and
Speaker 4: I think they've like jumped up to like what forty
Speaker 4: five or thirty seven or something like that.
Speaker 1: It's it's just that Golf Week one. I think they're
Speaker 1: almost up at twenty ors.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's uh, it's it's deserved. And
Speaker 4: but I mean there's also stuff before we got there
Speaker 4: that they were doing such a good job on, is
Speaker 4: you know, the tree removal. So I mean when you
Speaker 4: look at you know, I always say that with if
Speaker 4: you want a great tree removal success story to look at,
Speaker 4: you know, look at what Old Town did and what
Speaker 4: Dunlop did there with with removing tons of trees, but
Speaker 4: you would never know that there was you know, it
Speaker 4: was done respectfully and done right, and in the in
Speaker 4: the courses, the views of that place is just unreal
Speaker 4: looking at you know, from some of the te's and
Speaker 4: looking out over that property to imagine that there was
Speaker 4: like thousands of more trees everywhere. Everything was choked off.
Speaker 4: And so you're you're.
Speaker 1: Doing restoration work at Rolling Green, which I from I
Speaker 1: hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it, but from
Speaker 1: a property standpoint, really kind of pretty similar to Old
Speaker 1: Town in the in the just the bold the massive
Speaker 1: landforms that that the course is routed over, but like
Speaker 1: you know, very corridored off where almost each holds its
Speaker 1: own room. And now they just approved a tree removal project.
Speaker 4: And you know, I think it's done for the right reasons.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it's it's really has to be.
Speaker 4: It's the right tree in the right place. And and
Speaker 4: there weren't trees there and a lot of responts before
Speaker 4: tons of them got planted, and you got to look
Speaker 4: at you know, the health of the turf, the health
Speaker 4: of the greens, and you know, frost delays. I mean,
Speaker 4: there's so many things that kind of go into that
Speaker 4: are just going to open the door to in the
Speaker 4: in the views. But but first of all, the condition
Speaker 4: of the golf course. I mean it's going to be
Speaker 4: a huge effect on that golf course, opening up those corridors.
Speaker 4: And excited to see that, I'm gonna be. I'm heading
Speaker 4: back up there here this next week, so I'm going
Speaker 4: to take a look at how things are progressing with
Speaker 4: the with the tree removal plan. And and you know,
Speaker 4: we're not just taking them all, We're we're picking the
Speaker 4: right tree.
Speaker 2: And that's something that's misconceived.
Speaker 1: And you know, I got it, as people think I
Speaker 1: am just cut down every tree. It's like, no, expose
Speaker 1: the trees that are the great trees or the property,
Speaker 1: and if you get the stuff away from it around it,
Speaker 1: the tree is just so beautiful and it's actually allowed
Speaker 1: to be healthy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's kind of what's happened there at
Speaker 4: Rolling Green. A lot of these trees are so choked
Speaker 4: off that one overcompetes and then it grows into the
Speaker 4: other one, and then it gets the diseased. And then
Speaker 4: well once you lose that one, well now you've got
Speaker 4: to get rid of four trees just because one, you know,
Speaker 4: one's got to come out. So I think that's one thing,
Speaker 4: and I think two. I think for here at Winter
Speaker 4: Park is a perfect example too. I mean, we've actually
Speaker 4: planted back more trees than we've taken down, but they're
Speaker 4: in the right spots. We've we've been able to plant them.
Speaker 4: We've been able to get the invasive trees that needed
Speaker 4: to come out, and then we've replaced them with pines.
Speaker 4: I mean, right now you look at three beautiful pines
Speaker 4: that are planted over here behind nine. And then the
Speaker 4: tree trimming and stuff like that that's happened around the
Speaker 4: course too. It just helps the turf thrive. So it
Speaker 4: is you know, everyone says, oh, just cut down all
Speaker 4: the trees. But it's it's really it does go back
Speaker 4: to just the right tree in the right place and and.
Speaker 1: And that's the other thing trees can do when you
Speaker 1: expose trees more is that they can act as like
Speaker 1: optical illusion and deception. They can mess with sight lines
Speaker 1: and and you know distance, like the way you interpret
Speaker 1: distances and how far you think things are.
Speaker 4: Everything. Yeah, so it's I think, uh, yeah, I'm excited
Speaker 4: to see the progression of the plan with Rolling Green,
Speaker 4: with the tree removal and and see the excitement of everyone,
Speaker 4: you know next year when they see it, and I
Speaker 4: know will probably happen. It will be like, so we
Speaker 4: took out trees, you know, and no one remembers, you know,
Speaker 4: when when it's already, when it's been done, they they
Speaker 4: don't miss them. So and a lot of those trees too,
Speaker 4: there's a disease and a lot of the trees that
Speaker 4: they needed. I mean, Rolling Green has done it. Like
Speaker 4: they went and had to arborist go through. They marked
Speaker 4: every tree on the site. I mean there's some trees
Speaker 4: that I walked up to and I can believe that
Speaker 4: they have a marker on. But they went through every tree,
Speaker 4: checked every health of every tree that was on the site,
Speaker 4: and then it gives you a list, you know, and
Speaker 4: Brian's got a tablet that has them all in and
Speaker 4: you can click on every tree and he knows what
Speaker 4: the health is and you know, then you make a
Speaker 4: choice either going to spend thousands of dollars to treat
Speaker 4: this tree or remove it and replace it with a
Speaker 4: tree that can thrive. So that just gives you I
Speaker 4: really commend them for going that route. They've they've done
Speaker 4: their research and the asset of having that information has
Speaker 4: been huge for all of us to look at.
Speaker 1: So with restoration work, obviously, I imagine you learned a
Speaker 1: ton of stuff when you building new courses. How what's
Speaker 1: the is the stuff you learn and the way you're
Speaker 1: kind of thinking of of architecture is that the way
Speaker 1: it progresses when you're doing restoration work is it different
Speaker 1: than the way it does when you're doing a new build.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean the biggest thing is you hear it
Speaker 4: a hundred times, you know, you get ready to do
Speaker 4: a restoration or something or going that aspect and you're like,
Speaker 4: so we're going to move this bunker closer to the
Speaker 4: t's and we're going to put this back to where
Speaker 4: it was, you know, and they and then it comes
Speaker 4: into the whole technology is it is it going to
Speaker 4: be relevant? You know if we move this bunker, we
Speaker 4: do things, and then you're thinking about then then the
Speaker 4: technology is start steering the restoration. And then it's like
Speaker 4: it's that balance of oh, you're going to make the
Speaker 4: course too easy. And I think we were kind of
Speaker 4: hearing at really weren't hearing that, but it was it
Speaker 4: was a concern that like even at old Town, or
Speaker 4: we're to make it too easy that Old Town. We
Speaker 4: went and we had some bunkers in certain spots to
Speaker 4: kind of help with the technology. Maybe we had a
Speaker 4: bunker behind another bunker where you don't really see it,
Speaker 4: but it comes in play for the big hitter. So
Speaker 4: now and then you got to kind of turn that
Speaker 4: kind of thought into it about is that bunker meant
Speaker 4: to be a visual cue or is it plays in
Speaker 4: the strategy. And especially like with Flynn, like once you
Speaker 4: kind of think you figured out what Flynn's gonna do,
Speaker 4: he'll do something completely kind of like throws you off
Speaker 4: in a whole different aspect of things, and you and
Speaker 4: once you think you got it, you're like, okay, well
Speaker 4: then why this one doesn't make any sense? Why'd you
Speaker 4: put this bunker here? So I think that's that's one
Speaker 4: thing we're working with Rolling Green right now is when
Speaker 4: we first went and looked at it, we were we
Speaker 4: were taking that thing back to nineteen twenty six. Like
Speaker 4: we found we went in a deep dive. We found
Speaker 4: a plan that had been sitting in an engineer's office
Speaker 4: for like ninety like ninety two years, was just sitting
Speaker 4: rolled up and it was like the linen plan that's
Speaker 4: like looks like a treasure map and you you know,
Speaker 4: fold this thing open and it's got the pencil marks
Speaker 4: of where, you know, even where Flynn was thinking about
Speaker 4: maybe the fifteenth Green being in a different place, and
Speaker 4: you know, and you start doing research about different plans
Speaker 4: that were drawn in that he had he'd put up,
Speaker 4: and then you start seeing the little differences of where
Speaker 4: things have shifted, and then you have to figure out, well,
Speaker 4: why did he shift that? And you got to kind
Speaker 4: of put your you know, kind of thinking outside the
Speaker 4: box and why that might happen. So I think with
Speaker 4: with with Rolling Green in that aspect is just it
Speaker 4: was just so much fun to do the deep dive
Speaker 4: and find out the history and where we've now found
Speaker 4: We've we found the baseline. We're like, okay, this is
Speaker 4: exactly where we could basically say this is what it
Speaker 4: was when it opened up in nineteen twenty six, and
Speaker 4: then now we can take that information and now we
Speaker 4: can move forward without doing something that would damage the
Speaker 4: course and be something that would not go that would
Speaker 4: go against kind of Flynn's principles on those things.
Speaker 1: So you and Riley did something unique with the you
Speaker 1: know when you guys got the job at Rolling Green
Speaker 1: where you did a massive flint tour. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean you saw what twenty something, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: We went everywhere we were just we wanted to get
Speaker 4: those uh those you start seeing like patterns of things
Speaker 4: and then you can kind of take that back to
Speaker 4: where you're and then back to Rolling Green or or
Speaker 4: you know, maybe that's something that you know that he
Speaker 4: would do here, so you I don't know, it was.
Speaker 4: It was really kind of cool to see, you know,
Speaker 4: how things how maybe some assumptions that maybe made about
Speaker 4: what it was or what It's kind of hard to explain,
Speaker 4: but like kind of know how far to take things.
Speaker 4: I guess what.
Speaker 1: Were some of your biggest takeaways that you know, or
Speaker 1: things that after seeing Rolling Green that the tour might
Speaker 1: have changed your perception of Flynn or something that maybe
Speaker 1: even something that you take away from Flynn and and
Speaker 1: really look at, you know, hopefully using in your future work.
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's I think it's the I think
Speaker 4: to seeing his designs is how almost he was ahead
Speaker 4: of his time, I think. And you know in the
Speaker 4: clubs that they were using at that time and in
Speaker 4: some of the shots on some of these courses that
Speaker 4: he was asking you to make, and you're like, you know,
Speaker 4: even with the modern technology, this isn't an easy shot.
Speaker 4: You know, these guys are got you know, I don't know,
Speaker 4: got hickories and they're just you know, hitting this ball
Speaker 4: into the into into some of these greens and and
Speaker 4: just some of the you know, not afraid to put
Speaker 4: you know, fairways on on side slopes and things and
Speaker 4: and how and you got to think about how you're
Speaker 4: placing the ball in the fairway and and where it's
Speaker 4: going to run out to and the strategy. And I
Speaker 4: think too, when you look at there's a few times
Speaker 4: where people are like, oh, we're the most authentic Flynn
Speaker 4: and then you start kind of digging back and you
Speaker 4: got these photos and you start looking and you're like, well,
Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't know what happened here, but
Speaker 4: that doesn't look like what it was.
Speaker 1: I guess of the Finns that you saw outside outside
Speaker 1: of Rolling Green, which one would the one that you
Speaker 1: kind of took the way it took away the most.
Speaker 1: And if there was one that was particularly you you
Speaker 1: didn't expect to get as much out of, what were
Speaker 1: the courses that kind of resonated and stuck with you
Speaker 1: the most?
Speaker 4: I think the one that, like just recently, I was
Speaker 4: up in Cleveland and I went to the Cleveland country
Speaker 4: Club there and and that one is like it's it's
Speaker 4: the bones are still there. It just you know it.
Speaker 4: It could use the bunker restoration and things like that,
Speaker 4: but man, it's got it's got just some cool character
Speaker 4: to it. And that's one that I I really saw
Speaker 4: as like what one had the most potential if it
Speaker 4: was put back or had some work done on it.
Speaker 2: And country club, Yeah, contract that place is really cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's there's just that funky kind of
Speaker 4: just the land that he picks and it's like, I
Speaker 4: don't know if you had like a standard where he said, well,
Speaker 4: if you don't have a creek running through your project
Speaker 4: or or you don't have this you know, random you know,
Speaker 4: hills or things like that, then I'm just not interested
Speaker 4: in it. But because that's one thing that he starts seeing,
Speaker 4: you know, some of the things that he would route
Speaker 4: it over a over a stream or something like that.
Speaker 4: And I mean there's some of the ones right around
Speaker 4: you know, Philly that you know, like Huntington, you know,
Speaker 4: and seeing some of the you know, him using that
Speaker 4: raw land and then a compact piece of property too.
Speaker 4: But then you getting the best out of it is
Speaker 4: something I really really noticed. He liked that outside inside
Speaker 4: right rout Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's he's gonna
Speaker 4: take you on a on a a little bit of
Speaker 4: a journey through different parts of the prompt breath in,
Speaker 4: and and that's what's that's what's really cool that he
Speaker 4: definitely gets the best out of it.
Speaker 1: How how's so here at winter Park? You you didn't
Speaker 1: really reroute anything, right, No.
Speaker 4: I mean when we first, you know, we we first
Speaker 4: tried to take everything look at everything with a with
Speaker 4: a blank slate. But I mean, you got everything's surrounded
Speaker 4: by students, and I mean the only thing that we
Speaker 4: looked at is like could we do something with like five,
Speaker 4: six and seven over there and do something a little
Speaker 4: bit different, But it.
Speaker 1: Just nothing with with for students with the opportunity. What
Speaker 1: was what was routing for the first time?
Speaker 4: Like, oh, it was you know, it was it was cool.
Speaker 4: I mean it was basically that one day walk in it.
Speaker 4: I mean you just let you just let your you know,
Speaker 4: feet kind of help you with you know, how would
Speaker 4: I walk this property if I was just gonna go
Speaker 4: on on a bit of a journey here. And that's
Speaker 4: what was fun when I first got there, when I
Speaker 4: first saw the property, I did a routing on my own,
Speaker 4: and then you know, Riley came in the next time
Speaker 4: and then we both then then he was able to
Speaker 4: put his layer on it. And then that's kind of
Speaker 4: like that's what's fun. Is that that collaboration, like, oh
Speaker 4: well that's something I didn't think about and that's cool,
Speaker 4: and it's just that added uh, those those added things
Speaker 4: were neat, you know, and.
Speaker 1: So so the way it worked, you you went first,
Speaker 1: you you put together a routing. Yeah, had Riley went
Speaker 1: had he seen your routing before he got there? Ah?
Speaker 4: No, I didn't show him. Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean we all knew where we were starting from.
Speaker 4: I mean it was obvious where we were starting out,
Speaker 4: the pavilion right there, and you know, I had the
Speaker 4: routing and we went we walked through it, and then
Speaker 4: he's like, well, you know, I really feel like if
Speaker 4: I got to this point, I kind of want to
Speaker 4: know what was happening this way. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 4: well let's look at that. And I'm like, yeah, perfect, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I didn't think about that. That's cool, it's a cool
Speaker 4: way to go and and and it's cool, but it's
Speaker 4: a better hole for that for that area. And then
Speaker 4: we both think about how we can make it work.
Speaker 4: But you know, sometimes when you have a cool idea
Speaker 4: and something changes there, then it has a ripple effect
Speaker 4: through the rest of the course. And and and that
Speaker 4: really there weren't many things that on the routing that
Speaker 4: we both looked at that changed that much. The thing
Speaker 4: that that probably changed the most on the routing is
Speaker 4: when when Riley got there, was we finished on the
Speaker 4: ninth and we got to the ninth green, and it's
Speaker 4: it would have been a bit of a way from
Speaker 4: from the pavilion, and Riley is like, well, we got
Speaker 4: to figure out a way to play back to the pavilion,
Speaker 4: you know. And I'm like, I'm a play back I'm
Speaker 4: gona figure out a way to play back to the
Speaker 4: pavilion no matter what, you know. And I was like, okay, well,
Speaker 4: how is this going to work? Riley? We And that's
Speaker 4: where it was that, well, can we have the putting green.
Speaker 4: We're gonna put another green here, and we're gonna have
Speaker 4: crossing holes. And that's that was that was a thing
Speaker 4: where Riley's one of his ideas was out of the
Speaker 4: box on making the crossing holes. So and when you're there.
Speaker 2: Riley's got a lot of out of the box idea.
Speaker 4: But I mean that's that that type of like shaking
Speaker 4: the excess, you know, the shaking the box and seeing
Speaker 4: what comes out. You know, it's like just you get
Speaker 4: sometimes in the norm of just thinking one way, but
Speaker 4: then you got someone that just like, you know, kind
Speaker 4: of just you know, like, hey, look at this a
Speaker 4: little differently, and.
Speaker 1: You well, I think that's such a valuable thing in
Speaker 1: the design world because once you get kind of locked
Speaker 1: in you also the way you view something in anything
Speaker 1: of life, like you have your everybody has their own
Speaker 1: biases and the way they look at things, and and
Speaker 1: it can be great for so many ways, but that
Speaker 1: that collaboration often yields even better because it's you could
Speaker 1: take the two the things that you do best, and
Speaker 1: somebody else might just enhance it.
Speaker 2: A little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's really having that you know, no ego
Speaker 4: and and yeah, it's just it's just taking a step
Speaker 4: back sometimes and sometimes in your mind you'll fight it
Speaker 4: a little bit, you know, be like, oh, I mean
Speaker 4: this is I kind of like this, you know, but
Speaker 4: then you start thinking about it, and then when you're done,
Speaker 4: you're like, why would I have ever had that idea
Speaker 4: of trying to like, uh, be locked in into something
Speaker 4: like this. So that's it's something that I saw that
Speaker 4: I see with when we're working with Bill and Ben
Speaker 4: all the time, and I'm like, man, that works. And
Speaker 4: when you have someone like Riley where it's so much
Speaker 4: fun to be around and joke around with and and
Speaker 4: and have those outside the box things, but like yeah,
Speaker 4: just the yeah, we're gonna do a crossing hole here
Speaker 4: one in ten are going to cross and and when
Speaker 4: you're there, everyone's like, oh, well, how is this gonna work?
Speaker 4: You know, And when you're there, there's a big tree
Speaker 4: that blocks and forces you that way, and you just
Speaker 4: gotta have golf etiquette and and you know, it's it's
Speaker 4: a place to have fun. And if you're gonna get
Speaker 4: upset because of speeds of play or something like that,
Speaker 4: like then just go back to your cottage.
Speaker 5: And it has to be like a it's almost like
Speaker 5: a coincidence where people are at the exact same point
Speaker 5: at the exact same time.
Speaker 4: Well, I think, yeah, yeah, when you think about it,
Speaker 4: I think it's also gonna be fun because you're gonna
Speaker 4: have the people shout and be like, you know, cheering
Speaker 4: on the person that they hit their shot on there.
Speaker 4: The people on the tee on ten are gonna be
Speaker 4: watching the people hitt into one. It's just gonna create
Speaker 4: this buzz around that pavilion. And then you got people,
Speaker 4: you know, if they hit a hole in one, you
Speaker 4: know there's gonna be people. We built the green on
Speaker 4: ten so you have a really good view of sitting
Speaker 4: at the pavilion of the full green surface. So and
Speaker 4: we built a bunker that kind of hides a bit
Speaker 4: of the green, so the ball will kind of hit
Speaker 4: up on a slope and then kind of trickle down
Speaker 4: into the It could be a whole one. You got
Speaker 4: the whole pavilion jumping up. People are excited, and and
Speaker 4: then you got the guy you know, running down the
Speaker 4: fairway there. I mean, it's just it's going to create
Speaker 4: a buzz that I think, I think we need more
Speaker 4: in in golf. Is just that excitement and fun factor.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean Part three is the best spot
Speaker 1: because everybody has a has a chance on the part
Speaker 1: of a Part three. You know, you could, you know,
Speaker 1: even if it's just for one shot, you can beat
Speaker 1: the best player, you know. Yeah, and that's the beauty.
Speaker 1: And there's a few things more thrilling than a whole one.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you know, we will be looking for next year,
Speaker 1: next June ju Jun ye.
Speaker 2: And then I'll have to get up there definitely.
Speaker 4: Yeah be uh yeah, we we I think we tried to.
Speaker 4: We try to get you up there for some rock
Speaker 4: picking this year, but it didn't didn't see you show up.
Speaker 2: I was had a busy summer.
Speaker 4: We had a place for you to stay, had had
Speaker 4: everything all set up, had had everything and you just
Speaker 4: just didn't show up.
Speaker 1: I I mean it wasn't confirmed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was always a tentative.
Speaker 4: I wanted to go everybody. Everybody wants to come pick rocks.
Speaker 2: I would love picking rock.
Speaker 4: Surprisingly well, the next project, we're gonna we're gonna put
Speaker 4: you on a dozer. Now you don't see and see
Speaker 4: what you can do, you know, I mean I've seen
Speaker 4: the the you know, the skills you have to scare possums,
Speaker 4: and I wonder if you can like channel something with
Speaker 4: that to like maybe pull it into golf design or
Speaker 4: something like that with building or something.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think I'm gonna be very useful.
Speaker 1: I've never been you know the uh, but.
Speaker 2: I'll give it a try.
Speaker 4: You know, one thing Andy is.
Speaker 2: Those who can't do right Yeah, we'll say is.
Speaker 4: That, you know, the years of watching the Frida Egg
Speaker 4: and listening to you on the podcast and in the
Speaker 4: work that you've been doing, I'm very appreciative of of
Speaker 4: of the of what you've been doing and pushing and
Speaker 4: uh firing some shots out there and and and making
Speaker 4: people question what they're doing and and how they're going
Speaker 4: about things. I think you've made some big impacts on it,
Speaker 4: and making on a few things that have happened in
Speaker 4: the in the industry of making people question why are
Speaker 4: we going down this path? And and and can we
Speaker 4: do things better? And and I appreciate that, uh honesty
Speaker 4: that you have to people and and and I look
Speaker 4: forward to more of that and uh and and.
Speaker 2: I just hope I don't let you down like when
Speaker 2: you wanted me to come pick rocks.
Speaker 4: No, you you've redeemed yourself. So's I still will remember
Speaker 4: that that you're gonna have to You're gonna have extra
Speaker 4: rock picking duties on the next project.
Speaker 1: You know, you gotta just you gotta get send me
Speaker 1: a formal invite. I gotta get it on the calendar.
Speaker 1: And that's uh.
Speaker 4: And I'll put in I'll have a tenerary for you
Speaker 4: in the Google Maps, like to get you a zacht
Speaker 4: to the place that you need to go.
Speaker 1: If you talk to missus Friday, you know you'll find.
Speaker 4: That time management and and and and I kind of
Speaker 4: trusting the Google Google Maps and things like that is uh,
Speaker 4: probably something they shouldn't do.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm a self sabotager, Isn't it?
Speaker 4: Isn't it? Also because like Chicago is all graded out,
Speaker 4: you know? Is that why when when you when you
Speaker 4: work off a grid system on roads where you kind
Speaker 4: of know where you need to be, and then you
Speaker 4: get in these other cities that don't have a grid
Speaker 4: system and you just get lost. And I get you
Speaker 4: end up like trying to get the winter Park, but
Speaker 4: you like end up in Mam Millennia somewhere on like
Speaker 4: I four and like five twenty eight, which is like
Speaker 4: an hour and like well like two hours from Orlando.
Speaker 2: Now I get lost, you know, I wake up lost.
Speaker 4: So it's well, you found you found winter Park, which
Speaker 4: was a good thing, and you're actually on time.
Speaker 1: I've been here like three times. I know, you know,
Speaker 1: I get lost just in general with life. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure I probably you know, my there are a
Speaker 1: lot of skills that I don't have.
Speaker 4: But we're all we're all learning, and uh that's that's
Speaker 4: that's good.
Speaker 1: So thanks for coming on, and uh, well next time,
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll be talking after your next uh your your
Speaker 1: eighteen first eighteen hall.
Speaker 4: Hopefully of course. Yeah, so thanks Franks, Andy