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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Trump has frozen one billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in food aid given to local schools and food banks

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Speaker 1: to help low income families. We have such a great

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Speaker 1: show for you today. On the tapes, Dan Nathan stops

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Speaker 1: by to talk to us about the stock markets very

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Speaker 1: very very bad reaction to Donald Trump's policies.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Molly, we also have an extra special bonus from

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Speaker 2: our YouTube channel where we talk to Harvard professor Lawrence

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Speaker 2: Lessig about his thoughts on how the Democrats can make

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Speaker 2: a doge that actually works well in the future. Then

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Speaker 2: we'll talk to the New York Times David Enrich about

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Speaker 2: his new book, The Murder of Truth, Fear the First

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Speaker 2: Amendment in a secret campaign to protect the powerful.

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Speaker 3: But first the news.

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Speaker 2: So, Molly, Elon Musk has officially become part of Maggo

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Speaker 2: because he's always saying the quiet part out loud, and

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Speaker 2: he has done just that about social security. Let's listen

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Speaker 2: to him say the truth about how it feels about it.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean the Waste report in entitlement spending, which

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Speaker 4: is all of the most of the federal spendings entitlements.

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Speaker 4: So that's that's like the big one to eliminate is

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Speaker 4: that's the sort of half trillion, maybe six seven hundred

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Speaker 4: billion a year.

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Speaker 1: Waste fraud and abuse. But it's not actually waste, fraud

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Speaker 1: and abuse. It's just things Elon doesn't like. So here's

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Speaker 1: the thing I want to talk about when it comes

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Speaker 1: to what Elon is doing. We saw this Republican House

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Speaker 1: pass a reconciliation bill which had an eight hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty billion dollar cut to medicaid over ten years. We

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Speaker 1: don't need to hear Elon say it. The Congress has

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Speaker 1: said it. They are going after Medicaid and Medicare, and

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Speaker 1: just because they know it's unpopular and they don't want

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Speaker 1: to say it out loud. One of the very few

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Speaker 1: good things to come from Elon Musk's stint in the

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Speaker 1: ruling us like a god king has been that he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have the energy to lie, so he just I mean,

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Speaker 1: he still lies, but he is slightly addicted to telling

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Speaker 1: us what he's what he's actually going to do, and

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Speaker 1: in this case, he's actually going to try They're going

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Speaker 1: to try to cut medicaid and we saw this coming.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're cutting the Oceanic, the national They're doing

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Speaker 1: everything they said they were going to do in Project

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. And you're going to be shocked to

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Speaker 1: hear that even though Trump said he wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: do it, He's actually going to do it. It's shocking.

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Speaker 1: And Musk has got a lot of lies going. You know,

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Speaker 1: why are there twenty million people who are definitely dead

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Speaker 1: marked as alive in the Social Security database? This has

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Speaker 1: been debunked a bunch of times. The way the code

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Speaker 1: is written, it makes people seem older than they are

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Speaker 1: because of the way of the old fashioned code which adds,

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Speaker 1: you know whatever.

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Speaker 3: Forty years or fifty years to your birthday.

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Speaker 1: So it's actually people over eighty seven or ninety seven

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Speaker 1: or one hundred and seven, but not over two hundred,

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Speaker 1: you know, over one hundred and forty.

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Speaker 3: So the numbers actually.

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Speaker 1: This is just a continued debunk lie, just like when

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Speaker 1: we interview David Fahrenhold and he talks about how DOGE

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Speaker 1: is using a lot of debunked lies to make what

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Speaker 1: they're doing seem more legitimate.

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Speaker 2: Weight. You can watch on our YouTube on Wednesday afternoon.

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Speaker 1: Yes, fast Politics. Go into YouTube search fast Politics with

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Speaker 1: Molly John Fast. You won't regret it, or maybe you will,

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Speaker 1: but it will be too late.

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Speaker 2: So when Elon Musk is an erasing the government buying

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Speaker 2: Tesla's from and all his bs, Elon is losing lots

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Speaker 2: of money in the stock market, and Trump is now

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Speaker 2: crying tears for him.

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Speaker 1: So it turns out that one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: I see don't go into the federal government and cut

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Speaker 1: things when they're not elected is because it makes.

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Speaker 3: People not want to buy their products.

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Speaker 1: Right, Elon has espoused all these very very very right wing,

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Speaker 1: very very very controversial views on Twitter. He has sort

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Speaker 1: of gone to war with diversity, equity and inclusion. He

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Speaker 1: has done a lot of very controversial things, and perhaps

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Speaker 1: he should not be surprised.

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Speaker 3: That now people don't want to buy his cars.

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Speaker 1: Look, capitalism is about a free market, and this happened

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Speaker 1: in Donald Trump one point zero two, where he would

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Speaker 1: get really mad if people wouldn't buy things that were

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Speaker 1: right wing.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So remember when he had those goiabans that he had,

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Speaker 1: they were he was celebrating goiabins because they were Trump donors,

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Speaker 1: or they were they supported.

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Speaker 3: Some aspect of trump Ism.

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Speaker 1: You know, Trump gets very mad about protests, and he

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Speaker 1: gets very mad about boys. But the thing is, like

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Speaker 1: capitalism is based on the idea that you is a

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Speaker 1: free market, so you can buy what you want to buy.

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Speaker 3: Now, Donald Trump considers himself to be a king.

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Speaker 1: So this is very problematic for him, right because he

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Speaker 1: doesn't totally understand it. So as the Tesla stock falls,

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump realizes that the biggest donor to Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: re election campaign ended up being Elon mush so he

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Speaker 1: really needs that Tesla stock to stay up there, and

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Speaker 1: it's lost quite a lot of value. Remember when Trump

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Speaker 1: got into office, Elon stock went up by a huge

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Speaker 1: magnitude on the thinking that Elon would be able to

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Speaker 1: practice prony capitalism, which Donald Trump also hoped. But Elon

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Speaker 1: has just been so incredibly strident and loud about his

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Speaker 1: views he has alienated potential buyers. And remember, Tesla's are

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Speaker 1: electric cars, so the people who tend to buy electric

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Speaker 1: cars are people who believe in climate change, and the

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Speaker 1: people who believe in climate change tend to not want

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Speaker 1: to support someone who espouses far right wing views and

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Speaker 1: does things like these straight arms salute you will remember.

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Speaker 1: This has gotten Trump very upset. He truthed on truth

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Speaker 1: social we're using truth with scare quotes that radical left lunatics,

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Speaker 1: as they often do, are trying to illegally and collusively

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Speaker 1: boycott Tesla, one of the world's great automakers and Elon's baby,

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Speaker 1: in order to By the way, not buying things is

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Speaker 1: not illegal, at least not yet.

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Speaker 2: I don't know he wants to make not advertising on

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Speaker 2: Twitter illegal.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm going to buy a brand new Tesla

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Speaker 1: tomorrow morning as a show of confidence and support for

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk, a truly great American President, Trump said, why

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Speaker 1: should he be punished for putting his tremendous skills in

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Speaker 1: order to help make America great again?

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Speaker 5: Why?

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Speaker 1: Indeed, Trump and must have taken the unprecedented control of

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Speaker 1: the federal government's tripping Congress.

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Speaker 3: Of almost all of its power.

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Speaker 1: But you know it's all our fault for not buying

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Speaker 1: Tesla's The power couple has tried to support their actions

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Speaker 1: by pushing a steady stream of misinformation about waste and fraud.

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Speaker 1: We now know that fraud is anything Elon doesn't like,

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Speaker 1: and waste is anything that doesn't go to him. There is,

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Speaker 1: of course no evidence that liberal agitators have anything to

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Speaker 1: do with Tesla's punging share price. It is, of course

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Speaker 1: a consumer based business. I don't think it's illegal to

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Speaker 1: boycott that.

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Speaker 2: So another bad news for you. On A US judge

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Speaker 2: says his doge must release records on operations run in secrecy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we are fifty one days into the

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Speaker 1: Trump presidency. So when you listen to this, god willing

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Speaker 1: will be fifty two days into the Trump presidency. We

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Speaker 1: still don't know what Elon is doing in Doge besides

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Speaker 1: having fun and wandering around with his kids. So a

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Speaker 1: federal judge on Monday ordered the government downsizing team, created

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Speaker 1: by Donald Trump and spearheaded by the richest man in

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Speaker 1: the world, to make public records concerning its operations. Because technically,

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Speaker 1: when you work for the government, you're supposed to be transparent. Now,

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Speaker 1: when you're running transparency and efficiency, Andre Elin Musk, you

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Speaker 1: do everything in secret because of transparency Ergo Maga. US

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Speaker 1: District Judge Christopher Cooper and Washington sided with the government

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Speaker 1: watchshop groups Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington and

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Speaker 1: finding that the Department of Government Efficiency was likely an

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Speaker 1: agency subject to the Freedom of Information Act. For this ruling,

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Speaker 1: the first of a kind, marks an early victory for

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Speaker 1: advocates seeking to have some accountability for the fucking government. Look,

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Speaker 1: this is how government works in this country. We are

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Speaker 1: not a Banana republic. We should have accountability.

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Speaker 3: Look. I don't know what happens. I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 3: if Elon.

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Speaker 1: Declares whatever, But what he's doing right now is legal.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: He is not a cabinet appointee. He is not cleared

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Speaker 1: to cut things in the federal government. You know, it

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Speaker 1: would be like if Biden brought in George Soros to

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Speaker 1: run his government. It's the same thing, right, Like, this

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Speaker 1: is not how any of this works.

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Speaker 2: So, speaking of notn how any of this works, Trump

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Speaker 2: is trying to see how hard he can push his deportations.

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Speaker 2: With the deportation of an activist named Mahmood Khalil. That

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Speaker 2: seems pretty unlawful. And I know this is a hotbed

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Speaker 2: subject because some people don't like what he was a

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Speaker 2: part of. But the rule of law is the rule

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Speaker 2: of law, Am I right, Molly or yeah?

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Speaker 1: Look, a lot of us didn't like the protests, even

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Speaker 1: though we protect your right to protest.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: This is the fundamental rule of American democracy, right, the

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Speaker 1: First Amendment. We may not agree with them, but you

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Speaker 1: have the right to protest. Here is a man who,

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Speaker 1: first of all, is in the country legally, is married

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Speaker 1: to an American citizen who is eight and a half

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Speaker 1: months pregnant. He had a green card. He was the

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Speaker 1: negotiator for the students who are protesting with the faculty.

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Speaker 1: The faculty, that was how the Trump administration knew about him.

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Speaker 1: He is now he has been sent to a jail

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Speaker 1: in Louisiana because the Trump administration thinks that this Louisiana

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Speaker 1: jail will be more favorable to whatever they want to

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Speaker 1: do to this person. This is the opening of the

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Speaker 1: door of something real bad. Okay, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: like these protests, you don't have to like Palestinian activists,

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Speaker 1: you don't even have to like anything. But you have

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Speaker 1: to know that when the government starts deporting people who

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Speaker 1: are in this country legally because they don't like what

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Speaker 1: they're saying, this is the beginning of a real bad stuff.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I had this grandfather, Howard Fast. I've

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Speaker 1: talked about him at nauseum. Right, he was jailed by

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Speaker 1: the House of an American Activities for his refusal to

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Speaker 1: name names in the Communist Party, which he was a member.

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Speaker 3: He went to jail. He would then was denied a passport.

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Speaker 3: This is that, right.

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Speaker 1: This is the idea that you can target people for

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Speaker 1: their beliefs, that you can if you don't like what

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Speaker 1: someone believes, if you don't like their ideology, you can

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Speaker 1: kick them out of the country. This is not how

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Speaker 1: any of this works. And you are opening the door

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Speaker 1: here we are fifty two days into Donald Trump's presidency.

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Speaker 1: You start opening the door to deporting people because you

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Speaker 1: don't like their views. This is going to be very, very,

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Speaker 1: very problematic four years and hopefully I mean and this

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Speaker 1: is just AOC is completely right, tyrannical and on American.

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Speaker 1: This is if you look in the dictionary, this is

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Speaker 1: the definition of un American. You cannot depour people because

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Speaker 1: you don't.

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Speaker 3: Like what they believe.

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Speaker 1: Dan Nathan is the host of the On the Tape

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Speaker 1: podcast and as c NBC Fast Money contributor.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Hello, Dan Nathan.

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Speaker 5: Hey Molly, how are you great to be back on

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Speaker 5: Fast at Politics.

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Speaker 3: I am delighted to have you. And what a moment,

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Speaker 3: what a moment.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, politics has moved its way into the economy,

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Speaker 5: into the markets, and in a very quick way. When

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Speaker 5: you think about one of the reasons why, you know,

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump was elected a second time, it was about

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Speaker 5: his acumen as it relates to economic sort of issues.

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Speaker 5: He was going to bring inflation down, he was going

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Speaker 5: to bring a pro growth agenda.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 5: Back to America, nine.

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Speaker 1: Out of ten voters said they were voting for Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump on the economy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, here, here's one thing that I've been talking about

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Speaker 5: this a little bit on CNBC. They did this kind

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Speaker 5: of ass backwards if you go back to Trump one

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Speaker 5: dot oh, you know, Gary Cohene went in there. They

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Speaker 5: really wanted to get these tax cuts down. What did

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Speaker 5: they want to do. They wanted to get corporate tax

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Speaker 5: down and then for very wealthy sort of folks, and

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Speaker 5: they went after it and they got it. They got

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Speaker 5: one and a half trillion dollars of tax cuts, which

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Speaker 5: juiced the economy, it juiced the stock market. And then

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Speaker 5: in twenty and eighteen, then they went after trade and

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Speaker 5: tariffs and the like here and so they had a

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Speaker 5: bit of a buffer. So now they come in and

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Speaker 5: rather than focusing on the sorts of things that you

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Speaker 5: would think would help bring down prices to bring down inflation,

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Speaker 5: which is the promises made, supposedly promises kept, they actually

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Speaker 5: did it the other way around. And so now you know,

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Speaker 5: you have a market that is reacting to the potential

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Speaker 5: of a recession that was not really priced in if

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Speaker 5: you think about it three to six months ago. And

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Speaker 5: so that's one of the reasons why we've just basically

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Speaker 5: had this downward volatility in the markets. And you know,

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Speaker 5: when you have markets heading lower, that actually weighs on

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Speaker 5: consumer confidence, right, and so consumer confidence if it starts

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Speaker 5: to get worse, then consumers start pulling back from making purchases.

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Speaker 5: And though that's one of the things that I think

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Speaker 5: is happening right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I want to pause, because the reason that

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Speaker 1: this downturn was not priced in was because this downturn

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Speaker 1: did not need to happen, right. This downturn is a

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Speaker 1: direct result of trade wars being good and easy to win.

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Speaker 3: But they're actually not good and easy to win, are they.

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Speaker 5: Well. I think part of it is is that you know,

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Speaker 5: you go back to the playbook from the first administration, right,

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Speaker 5: and we saw how he kept on going back and forth,

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Speaker 5: back and forth.

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Speaker 1: So what I think about when I think about these

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Speaker 1: trade wars was the last time he did tariffs, it

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Speaker 1: actually worked out. And a lot of those tariffs not

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Speaker 1: a lot of them, but some of them were kept

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Speaker 1: on by Biden, Right, like the China tariffs.

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Speaker 3: Certain parts of the tariffs were smart.

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Speaker 1: The sense I'm getting now from what I read and

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Speaker 1: what I understand in Trump world is that Trump things

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Speaker 1: he can use tariffs the way that Biden world used

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Speaker 1: chips right to boost the manufacturing sector. But I'm not

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Speaker 1: convinced that you'll get there if you're going to kick

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Speaker 1: the American economy into a recession before you even.

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Speaker 6: Get there, right.

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Speaker 5: And again, so I think your point is a great

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Speaker 5: one about the Chinese tariffs going back to twenty and eighteen, right,

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Speaker 5: and so we had a lot of reasons why those

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Speaker 5: made a lot of sense. And you just mentioned what

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Speaker 5: Biden did with chips. Okay, so this is really an

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Speaker 5: export band to China, so they don't have access to

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Speaker 5: our best technology. Okay. Taking another step here in twenty

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Speaker 5: and twenty twenty five, rather than starting with China, they

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Speaker 5: went after our biggest trading partners, which is the EU,

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Speaker 5: it's Mexico and it's Canada, and so not only are

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Speaker 5: their biggest trading partners, there are also three of our

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Speaker 5: best allies if you're thinking of the EU as a

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Speaker 5: block here. So there's another issue of just going asked

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Speaker 5: backwards about this rather than focusing on China. And really,

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Speaker 5: you know, again, from a technology standpoint, this has been

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Speaker 5: going on for you know, decades. Actually, this kind of

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Speaker 5: forced technology transfer that the Chinese were doing on US

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Speaker 5: companies who wanted access to it, But to kind of

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Speaker 5: pick fights with our biggest trading partners who are also

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Speaker 5: our allies, doesn't make a lot of sense. The other

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Speaker 5: thing I'll just say is they're becoming more emboldened. And

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Speaker 5: it's not just from an economic standpoint. If you think

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Speaker 5: about just kind of some of the threats about annexing

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Speaker 5: Canada and you know, the stuff about Mexico, and then

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Speaker 5: the EU just kind of not kind of leaning into

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Speaker 5: the responsibilities that we have relating to NATO and kind

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Speaker 5: of pulling back from Ukraine and the like. So if

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Speaker 5: the our allies are starting to see US as a

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Speaker 5: less reliable partner on multiple facets, then they have to

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Speaker 5: get emboldened and they have to figure out how to

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Speaker 5: do some of this alone. And when you think about

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Speaker 5: the Canadian elections, you know, the new prime minister is

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Speaker 5: a former central banker, you know. So if there's anyone

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Speaker 5: you know, really set up to kind of deal with

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Speaker 5: this sort of trade war with a partner like the UA, yes,

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Speaker 5: I think it's there. So again, I think you're going

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Speaker 5: to continue to see if you know, our allies in Bolden,

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Speaker 5: I think they also have a playbook from the first time.

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Speaker 5: They also know that if the markets keep going lower,

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Speaker 5: then Trump's going to have to pivot a bit on this,

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Speaker 5: and then it just gives less teeth to the threats

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Speaker 5: of tariffs.

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Speaker 1: But I would also add, like the whole point of tariffs,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure Trump totally understands the whole point of tariffs,

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Speaker 1: but the whole point of tariffs are to either punish right,

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Speaker 1: to punish China, or to create a world where American

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Speaker 1: goods are cheaper, which means raising the price of Chinese

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Speaker 1: goods with tariffs. It makes a lot of sense, right,

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Speaker 1: China is really as close as America has to an

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Speaker 1: adversary at this moment. Right, they have not respected a

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Speaker 1: lot of the patent stuff they have our country completely hooked.

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Speaker 3: On to talk.

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Speaker 1: You know, there is quite a reason if you were

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Speaker 1: going to go and teariff them, it makes sense Canada

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Speaker 1: and Mexico do not have that, right. This is mostly

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Speaker 1: Trump's own anxieties about Canada and Mexico and his own

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Speaker 1: obsession with the border, right, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean the fentanyl.

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Speaker 1: You know, you had Kevin Hassett saying that Canadians were

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Speaker 1: sneaking Fenton. You know, the fentanyl largely is coming from

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Speaker 1: China more than it is from our two biggest allies

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Speaker 1: in North America.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's interesting someone mentioned to me the other

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Speaker 5: night on Fox News. I certainly don't watch it that.

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Speaker 5: You know, they're they're calling this a drug war, not

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Speaker 5: a trade war. Right, So they're kind of squarely focused

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Speaker 5: on fentanyl. And to your point, most of it does

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Speaker 5: come from China, but we hear more about it on

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Speaker 5: our borders. You know. The other thing I think is

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Speaker 5: kind of interesting. I heard this. You know, they're saying

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Speaker 5: that like terrafs are interesting to a guy like Trump

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Speaker 5: because he operates like a mob boss. Right, And if

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Speaker 5: you think about how you know, all of these companies

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Speaker 5: or these industries are going to come to him and

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Speaker 5: they're going to grovel for some sort of carve out

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Speaker 5: of their products. And he really likes that, right, So

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Speaker 5: he loves to be able to say, Okay, Tim Cook

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Speaker 5: came to me and they want exclusion of iPhones you know,

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Speaker 5: coming into the US, that sort of thing, and.

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Speaker 3: So which happened at one point, Oh.

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Speaker 5: And it did, right. And so when you think about it,

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Speaker 5: and this goes back to and I don't think you

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Speaker 5: and I have talked about this at least on a podcast,

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Speaker 5: is that when you think about how all of these

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Speaker 5: major tech CEOs gave to the inauguration, they were all

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Speaker 5: there on the dais at the inauguration, right, and all

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Speaker 5: these folks are just jockeying for access to his ear.

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Speaker 5: A lot of it I think has to do with

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Speaker 5: trepidation about how close Elon Musk is to the president.

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Speaker 5: But they are thinking about their own prospects. They're thinking

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Speaker 5: about their own products and their own services and how

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Speaker 5: you know, essentially what's the sort of leeway they're going

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Speaker 5: to have. But to be very frank, most of those

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Speaker 5: companies don't do business in China. If you think about it,

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Speaker 5: our digital companies, right, they're not going to be doing

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Speaker 5: business in China, and the one that actually has most

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Speaker 5: at stake is actually Elon Musk with Tesla. Right, So,

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Speaker 5: China remains like a huge issue for us because obviously

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Speaker 5: our digital companies are not there for the most part.

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Speaker 5: Are hardware companies are there, and a lot of the

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Speaker 5: manufacturing goes on there, which actually creates lots of conflict

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Speaker 5: of interest. And I know you've spent a lot of

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Speaker 5: time talking about that as relates to Elon Musk.

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Speaker 1: I would love you to explain to us what's happening

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Speaker 1: right now with the Tesla stock because obviously the market

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Speaker 1: is very validile there's a lot of losses, especially in tech.

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Speaker 1: But just sort of talk us through what's happening there.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, you know, Tesla for the last few years,

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Speaker 5: going back to twenty twenty two, has been in a

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Speaker 5: price war with basically Detroit, which you know, GM and

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Speaker 5: Ford we're moving into evs for instance. They were losing

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Speaker 5: a lot of money on it, but like that was

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Speaker 5: putting pressure to some degree on Tesla and their margins.

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Speaker 5: But Tesla also you know, makes about half of their

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Speaker 5: cars in Shanghai. The cars that they don't sell in China,

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Speaker 5: they go to the EU. Well, the EU has had

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Speaker 5: big tariffs on Chinese ev So if you are a

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Speaker 5: US auto manufacturer and you are making the cars in

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Speaker 5: China but selling them to the U, you're going to

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Speaker 5: be subject to those tariffs. So they've been in a

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Speaker 5: price war. The stock had been going down since the

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Speaker 5: highs in two thouy and twenty one to the lows.

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Speaker 5: Just last year it was down nearly forty some percent. Now,

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Speaker 5: after the election, because of Musk helping the president get

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Speaker 5: electioned his proximity to the president, the stock doubled. It

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Speaker 5: literally went from three quarters of a trillion dollars in

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Speaker 5: market capitalization to one and a half trillion. But since

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Speaker 5: late December the stock has given all of that back.

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Speaker 5: As you and I are talking right now, the stock

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Speaker 5: is trading at two hundred and twenty six dollars. It

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Speaker 5: was trading as high as four hundred and ninety dollars

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Speaker 5: a month and a half ago. So what's going on there? Well,

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Speaker 5: the fundamentals of this company are total crap. So the

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Speaker 5: competition that they have in China is really bad. The

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Speaker 5: price war that they have here in the US, they

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Speaker 5: just keep going lower and lower. You obviously have the

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Speaker 5: pushback of a lot of consumers here in the US,

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Speaker 5: but also nationalistic tendencies in China, nationalistic tendencies in the EU,

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Speaker 5: in France and Germany. The our sales last month were

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Speaker 5: down fifty percent. Just think of that, right, And here's

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Speaker 5: the other point here in the US. I think this

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Speaker 5: is almost a hilarious headline that Donald Trump said when

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Speaker 5: he's out of office, he's going to buy a Tesla

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Speaker 5: to support Elon Musk. Let me tell you another thing

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Speaker 5: about MAGA voters. They don't believe in climate change. They're

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Speaker 5: less inclined to buy electric vehicles. And I think all

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Speaker 5: of this is kind of weighing on the brand of

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Speaker 5: Elon Musk, the brand of Tesla, and basically the fundamentals

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Speaker 5: the company are really shit.

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Speaker 1: Right now, you know, he would have been better off

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Speaker 1: going with Harris because those voters believe in climate change.

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Speaker 5: But you know what, though, this is an own goal.

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Speaker 3: I mean, obviously Harris would never have gone along with this.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but this is an own goal. Going back to

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Speaker 5: early in the Biden administration, remember they held this kind

439
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 5: of ev confab at the White House, and GM was there,

440
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 5: Ford was there. There's a couple others there, Tesla was

441
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 5: not invited. This is kind of ground zero for Elon Musk,

442
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 5: kind of being red pilled. Throw in a bunch of

443
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 5: the stuff from the pandemic, throw in the woke mind

444
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 5: virus that he can't stand and everything like that. And

445
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 5: you can see the through line to this and it

446
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 5: really did start there. And you know, we think about

447
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 5: this sort of stuff all the time. I mean, like,

448
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 5: how do we be inclusive in an economy like this?

449
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 5: How do we take a guy who's obviously a very

450
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 5: excellent entrepreneur and make him feel welcome and bring him

451
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 5: into the fold because he's always been treated like an

452
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 5: outsider and now he's kind of flexing a little bit.

453
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 5: Now your question about Tesla. Here's a guy who is

454
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 5: not particularly liquid. He has a big steak in SpaceX

455
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,719
Speaker 5: that is a private company. He has a big steak

456
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 5: in x Twitter and XAI. It's not particularly liquid, right,

457
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 5: So the more that Tesla goes lower the potential that

458
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 5: he has to actually have to sell stock. Because he

459
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 5: lends the stock out to banks like Goldman Sachs and

460
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 5: Morgan Stanley as collateral for capital that they give him.

461
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 5: Right so, at some point if the stock continues to

462
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 5: go lower, he will have margin calls and the banks

463
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 5: will have to sell his stock. So again, who knows

464
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 5: if we're close to that, But at the end of

465
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 5: the day, he's going to have a fallout sooner or later.

466
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 5: With Trump. Trump wants to kill EV tax credits. The

467
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 5: most profitable business that Elon Musk has at Tesla is

468
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 5: selling tax credits to his competitors, right, and that's pure margin, right,

469
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 5: So if you get rid of the EV tax credits,

470
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 5: that's a huge problem for him. And there's a whole

471
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 5: host of other things that like basically the government wants

472
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 5: to do. They want to kill these charging stations. That

473
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 5: would be very bad. If you're a new buyer, one

474
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 5: of the issues that you have is charging anxiety. You

475
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,959
Speaker 5: have to figure out how to kind of go and

476
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 5: just adopt this new behavior with an EV after you know, decades,

477
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 5: if you're someone like me of using a car that

478
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 5: you fill up with gas. So there's a whole host

479
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 5: of issues that are really massive headwinds to his business.

480
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 3: Right now, would it ultimately be a short squeeze.

481
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 5: Then well, it actually could be the other way around

482
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 5: rather than a short squeeze. So if he has to

483
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 5: basically put up more collateral with the stock, and the

484
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 5: stock continues to go down based on fundamentals, based on

485
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 5: his political activities. I mean, they could be a self

486
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 5: fulfilling prophecy, right, And so who are the net buyers

487
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 5: of the stock? If you think about all the bros

488
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 5: that bought the stock, you know, starting the day after

489
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 5: the election, you know, somewhere around two hundred and fifty dollars,

490
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 5: and they were buying it all the way up to

491
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 5: basically four hundred and ninety dollars. With the stock down

492
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 5: here at two twenty seven, every single person who has

493
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 5: bought this stock since the election has lost money. And

494
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 5: the same goes for all the grift that went on

495
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 5: with the Trump coins and all that sort of stuff.

496
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: Then would trump coin well, I.

497
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 5: Mean they basically were the same sort of trade in

498
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 5: a way, like you were basically buying into something that

499
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 5: you thought had proximity to, you know, the administration that

500
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 5: would be as far as the crypto is concerned, and

501
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 5: the ones that were specifically kind of tied to the

502
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 5: Trump family. I mean, the idea was that you were

503
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 5: going to have the benefit of these things being attached

504
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 5: to the folks Ultimately, when it comes to money, when

505
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 5: it comes to investing, you know, gravity wins out. It's

506
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 5: just that simple. If you can't demonstrate the utility or

507
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 5: the value for an asset, it could be a stock,

508
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 5: it could be a crypto currency or something like that,

509
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 5: ultimately it will fail. And all you have to do

510
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 5: is look at the DJT. They're losing tens of millions

511
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 5: of dollars on a few million dollars in revenue, and

512
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 5: there's no reason for that thing to go up. It

513
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 5: is not a going concern as a business.

514
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: But crypto itself is down since Trump took office, even

515
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: though he was meant to be the crypto president.

516
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 3: Explain that.

517
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, so all of these sorts of trades, like bitcoin,

518
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 5: they were called the Trump trades, right. The US dollar

519
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 5: rallied a lot after the election. Banks, you know, the

520
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 5: idea that you would get deregulation after four years, you

521
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 5: know what I mean, even like the big tech stocks

522
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 5: which have been investigated by the DOJ and the FTC

523
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 5: you know for years now under the Bide administration, all

524
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 5: of these things rallied a great deal. So Bitcoin in particular,

525
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 5: the whole idea that the un and this is what

526
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 5: was floated was going to set up a strategic reserve

527
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 5: to buy bitcoin and hold it, and a lot of

528
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 5: folks thought that would be very good for the price. Ultimately,

529
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 5: because there is a finite amount of bitcoin, Well, basically

530
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 5: they're not going to do that, all right, and then

531
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 5: regulation is going to continue to be a bit opaque.

532
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 5: So investors are folks that bought it because of all

533
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 5: that have been selling out. So essentially you've seen a

534
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 5: round trip of a lot of these trades that were

535
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 5: meant to be pro growth because of this administration, or

536
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 5: it was going to be pro regulation where there was

537
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 5: going to be better to find regulation and these risk

538
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 5: assets should go higher. So a lot of those things

539
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 5: have come unwound over the last month or two.

540
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 3: So my last question for you is this.

541
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: It seems like the markets were very excited about Trump,

542
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: but ultimately it feels like, and I say this because

543
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: the market's lost two percent this week and five percent total,

544
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: it seems like the markets are very disappointed with Trump.

545
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 5: So why Yeah, So it goes back to a trade war.

546
00:27:59,760 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: Right.

547
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 5: So, if you are a company, if you are a CEO,

548
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 5: and part of your business or part of your agenda

549
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 5: is to grow your business right is to find new markets.

550
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 5: Has come up with that our products and services. To

551
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 5: do that, you need to invest in the company, You

552
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 5: need to hire, You need to spend on capital expenditures.

553
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 5: You need to spend on R and D. So if

554
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 5: you are a company that is going to face headwinds

555
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 5: from a trade war, right, increase input prices, whether you're

556
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 5: a manufacturer, a whole host of different things, then you

557
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 5: all of a sudden now have to take a step back, right,

558
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 5: You have to kind of weigh what's going to happen

559
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 5: to the economy. Just this week, we have seen Delta

560
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 5: and American Airlines cut their earnings forecasts dramatically. We've seen

561
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 5: this by a bunch of retailers over the last couple weeks, Walmart, costc.

562
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 5: These are companies that are supposed to do well in

563
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 5: high inflationary periods because you have consumers trading down to

564
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 5: the lowest priced Retailers are not doing nearly as well

565
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 5: as they were a year ago. So we're starting to

566
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 5: see some pressure waning on consumers. So again, if if

567
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 5: you were a company and you are not spending right

568
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 5: to grow your business, then ultimately that is going to

569
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 5: put downward pressure on the economy. The stock market is

570
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 5: meant to sniff that out ahead of time, right, It's

571
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 5: meant to take all the available data that we have,

572
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 5: whether it be economic data, whether it be messaging from companies'

573
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 5: earnings and the like here, and it's basically meant to

574
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 5: process that, right and so right now, I guess the

575
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 5: takeaway is that the uncertainty caused by a trade war

576
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 5: is likely to weigh on the US economy. And the

577
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 5: last thing I'll just say about this is that you know,

578
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 5: the Trump administration, by doing things asked backwards relative to

579
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 5: the way they did it in seventeen and eighteen, they're

580
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 5: really playing chicken with the US economy and then ultimately

581
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 5: the global economy. And oftentimes when you see this sort

582
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 5: of behavior when it relates to a massive economy like this,

583
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 5: that is literally the tail wagging the dog. In one way,

584
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 5: shape or form, is that you can't change things on

585
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 5: a dime. If companies start to slow down spending, if

586
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 5: countries stop trading with each other because of these sorts

587
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 5: of impediments, to turn that back on is really hard,

588
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 5: So you could face the potential of a recession. And

589
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 5: what happens during recession, people get fired. People stop buying things, right,

590
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 5: They stop investing in the stock market, they're not buying

591
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 5: new homes, they're not actually upgrading, you know, like making

592
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 5: additions to their home and that sort of thing, and

593
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 5: all of this activity slows down. And then you have

594
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 5: a situation where what does the government do to restimulate demand.

595
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 5: They have the lower interest rates, they have to do

596
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 5: more fiscal spending. And that's the very stuff over the

597
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 5: last few years that caused inflation. So one of the

598
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 5: issues right now is that you have slower growth, but

599
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 5: you have inflation that sticks around, and that's something they

600
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 5: call stagflation. You and I have talked about that before.

601
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 5: And in that environment, prices of risk assets and homes

602
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 5: will not do particularly well. Hiring will not do particularly

603
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 5: well either.

604
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: Yes, stagulation is the night Meer scenario. Thank you, Thank you,

605
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: Dan Nathan.

606
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 5: Thanks Molli. Thanks for having me.

607
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: David is an investigative reporter at The New York Times

608
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: and the author of Murder the Truth Fear, the first

609
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: of it, an s secret campaign to protect the powerful.

610
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, David.

611
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,239
Speaker 7: Thanks for having me.

612
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 3: I'm excited to have you.

613
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: I think We've had you on for every book you've

614
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: done because we did the Deutsche Bank too, or every

615
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: book you've done since we've existed, But this book murdered

616
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: the truth.

617
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: Tell us how did you get to this book?

618
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 7: I managed a small team of investigative reporters at The

619
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 7: New York Times and is it back in maybe twenty

620
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 7: twenty two. I got the feeling that every time we

621
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 7: were writing a piece or investigating a piece about a

622
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 7: powerful person or a rich person, we were getting inundated

623
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 7: with threatening letters from lawyers and odd curious Not a

624
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 7: great feeling, but you know, The Times has, for all

625
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 7: its flaws, which they're plenty, one of the many amazing

626
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 7: things here is that we have a great team of

627
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 7: in house lawyers. We're really experienced dealing with these things

628
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 7: and it's okay, we deal with it. It got me

629
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 7: thinking that what this would be like to be on

630
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 7: the receiving end of letters like this and trits like

631
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 7: this if I worked at a smaller news outlet, or

632
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 7: if I was an independent publisher.

633
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 3: Let me rephrase it anywhere else?

634
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, truly, I mean there's a small handful of places

635
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 7: that I think are pretty well equipped to deal all

636
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 7: this kind of stuff, but it's a very small handful.

637
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: It's two or maybe three.

638
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you're quite kind

639
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 7: of it, but in any case, it's a very very small, select,

640
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 7: kind of privileged group. So I sort of fanning out

641
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 7: to just journalists all over the country at anything from

642
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 7: like community newspapers or local newspapers, to independent bloggers or

643
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 7: people with a substack, or podcast hosts and things like that,

644
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 7: and I just started hearing these horror stories about how

645
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 7: and it ranged from people who were writing pieces about

646
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 7: Russian oligarchs and trying to expose their secrets to much

647
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 7: kind of more prosaic things like writing a piece about

648
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 7: a local real estate developer who is doing something kind

649
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 7: of sketchy, or even like a local politician or a

650
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 7: local business owner. And the threats sometimes we're just letters,

651
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 7: other times they were actually litigation. In some cases people

652
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 7: were encountered physical threats, and the situation really it became

653
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 7: really clear to me that this was casting a pall

654
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 7: over the entire journalism industry in the US in ways

655
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 7: that was leading many many journalists to either censor themselves

656
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 7: and avoid kind of sensitive controversial topics or writing about

657
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 7: religious people, or they were not censoring themselves and were

658
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 7: with some frequency encountering ruinous litigation and really serious threats

659
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 7: that were taking a severe business toll or psychological toll.

660
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 7: And I also realized that some of the same people

661
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 7: who were making these threats and filing these lawsuits, the

662
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 7: lawyers behind this, were some of the same lawyers who

663
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 7: on a national level were becoming increasingly outspoken advocating to

664
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 7: overturn decades of Supreme Court president that basically protected journalists

665
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 7: and others from this type of weaponized lawsuit. And that's Soliman, Yeah,

666
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 7: that's New York Times versus Sullivan. One of the things

667
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 7: that I found really interesting in reporting this book, by

668
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 7: the way, is that like New York Times versus Sullivan

669
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 7: in I guess maybe constitutional law, NERD Circles is like

670
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 7: really famous, but virtually no one else knows about it.

671
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 7: It's not like one of those decisions like Roe v.

672
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 7: Wade or something browny Board that is famous. So the

673
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 7: short version of this is that in nineteen sixty supporters

674
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 7: of Martin Luther King ran a full page ad in

675
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 7: the New York Times. The ad list it kind of

676
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 7: rattled off a whole list of nasty things that Southern

677
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 7: officials were doing to preserve white supremacy, and there were

678
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 7: a couple of facts frown. The gist was completely right,

679
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 7: but some of the facts were they're wrong or exaggerated.

680
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 7: And the guy who was in charge of the Montgomery,

681
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 7: Alabama Police Department sued The New York Times for defamation,

682
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 7: even though he wasn't even named in the ad, the

683
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 7: ad did say some things about the Montgomery police force.

684
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 7: He won his lawsuit. It was tried in a courtroom

685
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 7: by another white supremacist, a judge who happened to be

686
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 7: a pedophile. The Times appealed. They lost their appeal to

687
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 7: state Supreme Court, and so their final effort was to

688
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 7: appear to the US Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court

689
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 7: in nineteen sixty four heard the case, and their decision

690
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 7: became really important because what they ruled was that the

691
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 7: way Alabama's court system had interpreted the First Amendment as

692
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 7: allowing libel lawsits like this to go forward was it

693
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 7: basically meant that news outlets were not going to be

694
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 7: able to cover the civil rights movement, which by the way,

695
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 7: was by design. That was the entire purpose of this lawsuit,

696
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court established a standard that's become known as

697
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 7: the actual Male standard, but said that if you're a

698
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 7: journalist or a member of the public writing about a

699
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 7: public official or a public figure and you get a

700
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 7: fact wrong, as long as you aren't lying, like deliberately

701
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 7: gaining the fact wrong, or as long as you are

702
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 7: not acting with reckless disregard for the accuracy of the statement,

703
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 7: you cannot be successfully sued for damages. And so the

704
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 7: idea was basically that journalists and others need breathing room

705
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 7: to be able to kind of have Vetero's discourse about

706
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 7: people that wield a lot of power in society. And

707
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 7: if there's ruinous litigation hanging over your head every time

708
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 7: you do that, you're going to self sense. And so

709
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 7: the standard that is created basically ushered in a golden

710
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 7: era of journalism.

711
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: So the difference between say, tweeting that someone is a

712
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: pedophile and making a mistake in an article so like

713
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: it gives you a little room for a mistake versus maligning.

714
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, And with the pedophile thing, I mean, it depends

715
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 7: if the person is a pedophile or not. If the

716
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 7: person is a pedophile, that's fine. If you have reason

717
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 7: to believe the person is a pedophile, that's fine, but

718
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 7: it's really I mean, the way that this has become

719
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 7: i think essential to modern day journalism and modern day

720
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 7: just public advocacy in public speaking is that if you

721
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 7: have reason to believe something, and you've done a little

722
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 7: bit of due diligence and you believe that what you're

723
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 7: writing is okay, and this is a public figure or

724
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 7: a public official that you're writing about, you cannot be

725
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 7: sued for defamation. And this is a standard that it

726
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 7: protects people across the political spectrum and has four decades

727
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 7: and until really quite recently, there's a very broad bipartisan

728
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 7: consensus that these were important safeguards the protected free speech

729
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 7: and the freedom of the press.

730
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 6: Right.

731
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: So what happened Trump.

732
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 7: Is so explained in twenty sixteen, Trump, when as his

733
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 7: candidacy was gaining momentum, obviously kind of the parts of

734
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,959
Speaker 7: his platform was bashing the media in really incendiary, ambitious

735
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 7: personal terms. And one of the things he started talking

736
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 7: about was opening up the libel laws. And that was

737
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 7: kind of nonsense. It was pretty easy to dismiss because

738
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 7: it's not up to a president or even Congress to

739
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 7: open up the libel laws a question of the Supreme

740
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 7: Court's interpretation of the First Amendment. But he kept going

741
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 7: on and on and on about this, and it really

742
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 7: took hold, and I think it inspired a lot of

743
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 7: right wing activists and lawyers and judges to take it

744
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 7: kind of a closer look at the ways that Sullivan

745
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 7: and some subsequent cases were allowing the modern day media

746
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 7: to vigorously report about him. And his rhetoric also kind

747
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 7: of inspired legions of copycats all over the country who

748
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 7: were filing lawsuits or threatening to file lawsuits against media

749
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 7: outlets and journalists large and small. And that, by the way,

750
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 7: is the trend that I was picking up on several

751
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 7: years later when I started working on this book. And

752
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 7: Trump's rhetoric and his allies rhetoric coincided with a couple

753
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 7: of very successful lawsuits against major media outlets, most notably

754
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 7: the one against Gawker. It was financed by Peter Teel

755
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 7: that literally destroyed Gawker. And so that the accommindation of

756
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 7: a lawsuit that took down a media outlet, plus Trump

757
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 7: on the campaign trail kind of successfully bashing the media

758
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 7: and arguing that the media was so reckless and so

759
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 7: irresponsible that we need to be able to sue them

760
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 7: more easily. That it really created a movement in essence,

761
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 7: and all of a sudden you had some very prominent lawyers, activists,

762
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 7: and judges leaping on this Trump bandwagon with the very

763
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 7: clear stated goal that they want to make it easier

764
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 7: to sue the media because they view the media as

765
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 7: biased against Republicans and conservatives, and therefore the solution to

766
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 7: that is to subject them to waves of litigation that

767
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 7: will either make them no longer exist or it'll make

768
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 7: them think twice before deeply investigating or criticizing powerful people.

769
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: I see this as something that we see a lot

770
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: in Trump world, where Trump cooks up an idea and

771
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: it sort of keeps going, Like we've seen him sort

772
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: of shop stuff like this before and then create cottage industries.

773
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: He doesn't create the cottage industries. The cottage industries sort

774
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: of rise up around him. Can you think of other

775
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: situations where he's sort of floated an idea and the

776
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: kind of brain trust has continued.

777
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: On with it.

778
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well, I mean this is just a classic example

779
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 7: of that, right, because he says something on the campaign

780
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 7: drill that just doesn't make sense and it's not logical.

781
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 7: It's not up to the president to make the decision

782
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 7: to open up the libel laws. But then a bunch

783
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 7: of people who are very smart and savvy and importantly

784
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 7: have a lot of money behind them kind of I

785
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 7: guess like professionalize that idea essentially and turn it into

786
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 7: something that, while you might disagree with it strongly, is

787
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 7: not insane and has a plausible kind of path to

788
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 7: being realized. So in this case, that took a few

789
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 7: different forms, and this coincided with the rise of this

790
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 7: cottage industry of small law firms, small but well financed

791
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 7: law firms that whose entire business revolved around suing media

792
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 7: companies and threatening media companies and journalists. And a couple

793
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 7: of those lawyers, as they were successful in a small

794
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 7: number of these cases, developed a national profile. I mean

795
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 7: that the most obvious one to me is a lawyer

796
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 7: named Libby Locke. What a great name, and she became

797
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 7: a favorite of Tucker Carlson and Fox News. And so

798
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 7: basically every time the media was accused of doing something

799
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 7: wrong that's a slight excentation. Often when the media did

800
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 7: something wrong, she was called on to Tucker Carlson, and

801
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 7: she would use that platform to advocate for not just

802
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 7: the media behaving better or being held accountable, but for

803
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 7: basically loosing, well not loose. Every time she was on TV,

804
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 7: she would say things like we need to overturn new

805
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 7: conference Slivan and that sort of kept to God. And

806
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 7: the more she said that, and the more other people

807
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 7: like her said that, activists at groups like the Heritage

808
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 7: Foundation and the Claremont Institute and the Federalist Society started

809
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 7: organizing conferences around this idea, and so they kind of

810
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 7: got the bringing juices of the conservative legal movement flowing.

811
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 7: And by twenty nineteen, Clarence Thomas had jumped on this

812
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 7: bandwagon in an opinion where he called for overturning Sullivan,

813
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 7: and that in some way was kind of the most

814
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 7: important moment.

815
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 3: And you knew they had the vote, or at least

816
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: some of the votes.

817
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 7: Right, well, they had one vote, right, but having Thomas,

818
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 7: who is in conservative legal circles, one of the if

819
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 7: not the most influential thinker, and he's a folk hero

820
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 7: on the right, so a having him kind of take

821
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 7: up this mantle was a huge breakthrough, and it immediately

822
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 7: inspired other federal judges to take up this mantle and

823
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 7: take up this argument. And one of Thomas his closest

824
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 7: friends and longest allies, was a federal judge on the

825
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 7: DC Appeals Court, which is kind of the second most

826
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 7: powerful court in the country. And this is a guy

827
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 7: who had known Thomas, had been friends with Thomas back

828
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 7: dating back to before he was a judge, back when

829
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 7: he was at the EEOC in Washington. And his name

830
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 7: is Larry Silverman, and he issued a year after Thomas

831
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 7: initially made this argument, he issued a scathing opinion that

832
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 7: said Sullivan should be overturned. And the entirety of his

833
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 7: argument was that it should be overturned because the media

834
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 7: is supposedly liberal and therefore should be punished. It was

835
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 7: really an extraordinary argument. It was. Look, obviously, that is

836
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 7: a large part of what the First Amendment is meant

837
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 7: to protect, not having judges or other government officials discriminating

838
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 7: against people's ability to speak based on their viewpoints. But

839
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 7: really that was the moment that it has really started

840
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 7: getting tremendous momentum, and it has not stopped since then.

841
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: Is there sort of a historical precedent for a member

842
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: of the Supreme Court being involved in an idea that

843
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: then goes to the Supreme Court.

844
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure I know

845
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 7: the answer to that. That's very much what happened here.

846
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that seems kind of shocking to me.

847
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously Thomas is so in it that it's

848
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: not surprising, but it is a little bit shocking, isn't it.

849
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, well it is. And one of the things that

850
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 7: I really enjoyed doing in this book was kind of

851
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 7: tracing the evolution of Thomas's thinking on this and trying

852
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 7: to understand the reasons. And he's back in nineteen ninety

853
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 7: one during his confirmation hearings. You know, most of his

854
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 7: confirmation hearings were spent with him doing what most judicial

855
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 7: nominees do, which is basically doing the best not to

856
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 7: answer clearly senator's questions about what they think about particular cases.

857
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 7: And on the fifth and final day, Thomas was asked

858
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 7: about the Sullivan decision and actually gave what was probably

859
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 7: the most direct answer he'd given during the entirety of

860
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 7: its hearings, and he was very supportive of Sulivan and

861
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 7: he said that even though it's uncomfortable for public officials

862
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 7: like him to be in the media spotlight. It's really

863
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 7: important that we have those rates, and it's important for

864
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 7: democracy and it's important for accountability. And that was the

865
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 7: day before the Anita Hill allegations surface, where Thomas was

866
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 7: obviously and rightfully dragged through this uncomfortable spotlight, and his

867
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 7: views on the media at that point really started to

868
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 7: shift radically. I narrated this in the book, but he

869
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 7: basically had complete mental health breakdown at that time and

870
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 7: was really incapacitated for a while because he was so

871
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 7: upset about this, and I think he came to view

872
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 7: the media as the cause of his suffering, not his

873
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 7: own actions. That began this period where over the next

874
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 7: twenty or thirty years where Thomas clearly stopped thinking about

875
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 7: First amend of Protections for Journalists being important to democracy

876
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 7: and started feeling that First Ament of Protections for journalists

877
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 7: were basically enabling the media fair to him, right, yeah,

878
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 7: unfair to him and to like pursue of INNDBTA against him.

879
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 7: You can kind of understand that, right for someone like him,

880
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 7: And certainly by the time twenty nineteen rolls around and

881
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 7: Trump is in the office, his hatred towards the media

882
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 7: was really it was kind of overflowing, and he has

883
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 7: had some allies not just activists and politicians, but judges

884
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 7: as well who were It was like this has been

885
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 7: kind of festering for a long time and finally.

886
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 3: Exploded, I mean completely insane.

887
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: Talk me through where we are now with this, because

888
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: this will go to the core.

889
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 7: Well, we'll see there are at least two justices who

890
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 7: have signaled their willingness to overturn self and Thomas and

891
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 7: Justice Gorsic.

892
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always the two you most expect, though I

893
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: actually would have thought Alito would be.

894
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 7: Alita is interesting on this, and I don't quite know

895
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 7: where he stands. I mean, he actually historically had been

896
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 7: pretty good on First Amendment. It is he also obviously

897
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,959
Speaker 7: has like a real issue with the media right now

898
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 7: and has shown a willingness to really seemingly happily align

899
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 7: himself with people like Thomas and Trump part warming. Yeah,

900
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 7: so I heave a bit of a wild card to me,

901
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 7: But it's unclear to me whether there are enough votes

902
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 7: on the super Court to outright overturned Sullivan. I think

903
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 7: what's probably more likely to happen, and I Shad caveat

904
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 7: this by saying, I have a terrible track record making right.

905
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: No, I thought Aris would win.

906
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 7: Well, my track record of bad predictions goes back way

907
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 7: further than that. So at the risk of like making

908
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 7: a fool of myself, I mean, I think what is

909
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 7: more likely than Sullivan being overturned out rays there are

910
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 7: a bunch of kind of subsequent cases that basically prevented

911
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 7: lower rungs of public figures from suing the media, So

912
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 7: like you're like run of the mill billionaire, for example,

913
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 7: And I think it's more likely that the Supreme Court

914
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 7: would kind of ship away or maybe reverse some of

915
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 7: those subsequent precedents, which, by the way, would have a

916
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 7: huge impact, and it would mean that it was all

917
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 7: of a sudden, like a real risk to write critical

918
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 7: things or investigate like the richest person in your town

919
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 7: or your city, or someone like Elon Musk potentially before

920
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 7: he was in the government.

921
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: Though is he in the government? We're not sure, right,

922
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: he might he might not be.

923
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 7: Well, I've seen he has a government email address. Yes, yes,

924
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 7: but he is maybe not even they will be he is,

925
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 7: So I mean, he's the richest person in the world.

926
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 7: He obviously is playing a very influential role in the

927
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 7: White Ash. But there are thousands and thousands of people

928
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 7: in the US and all over the world who are

929
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 7: not nearly as rich or powerful Asim, but are still

930
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 7: really rich and powerful. And the means to pursue basically

931
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 7: infinite means for all intents and purposes to litigate against

932
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 7: the media and threaten the media. And by the way,

933
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 7: if not just the mainstream media, or this is something

934
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 7: that's already happening even with Sullivan still in place. It's

935
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 7: having across the country and creating hazardous conditions for anyone,

936
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 7: whether it is someone with a subsec newsletter or someone

937
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 7: who wants to leave a nasty restaurant review online or

938
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 7: start a petition about something in their community. All of

939
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 7: that type of activity is protected by SELIV and these

940
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 7: subsequent decisions and all of those things are already those

941
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 7: types of actions can face and do face litigation and

942
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 7: legal threats that are deliberately designed to get people to

943
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 7: shut up. And I think, obviously, if these Supreme Court

944
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 7: presidents that we can, we're going to see a whole

945
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 7: lot more of that.

946
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, Thank you, David, thank you, thank you, thank you.

947
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 3: I was much are present enough, so this is perfect.

948
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 5: Well, you're welcome.

949
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: Lawrence Lussig is a Harvard professor and a former presidential candidate.

950
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 6: Welcome Lawrence him Molly, great to see you.

951
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: Great to see you. I was so so you have

952
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: a really interesting piece that you wrote a medium that

953
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: I want to talk about. But first I want to

954
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: start by talking about how because I think it's important

955
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: that this is couched in all the work you've done

956
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: in the legal world, in the academic world about regulation,

957
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: your legal scholar.

958
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 3: Very brilliant future Princeton.

959
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: You've done lots of models for what the future should

960
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: look like with some regulation.

961
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: Is that fair?

962
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 6: Everything except the Princeton part. I wish I had t I.

963
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: Mean Harvard, Sorry, Harvard at Harvard, Princeton's on my brain,

964
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: but anyway, but yes, Harvard. But you've spent a lot

965
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: of time thinking about what regulation could look like in

966
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: this sort of ideal world where we have capitalism, but

967
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: we have a kind of capitalism that has some constraints.

968
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 6: Right.

969
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 7: Is that fair?

970
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 6: That's totally fair? Right? And that's what we should be

971
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 6: thinking about. How to build a capitalism that's regulated in

972
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 6: a way that makes it so the capitalism doesn't control regulation.

973
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 6: This is the like. On the right, they call this

974
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 6: crony capitalism. On the left, I think we just call

975
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 6: this corruption. But the most striking feature of the world

976
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 6: we've found ourselves in right now is that it's an

977
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 6: overwhelmingly corrupt system of government. And it's kind of astonishing.

978
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 6: We got here, but we've got to find a way out.

979
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: Yes, now we got here.

980
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: What I think is so interesting about your writing it,

981
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: and I think it's correct, and I think that on

982
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: the liberal side we're not attuned enough to this. The

983
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: reason why Trump was able to successfully and I might

984
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: add bafflingly running for president and win twice, was populism.

985
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think that we mistake what populism is.

986
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 6: People think about populism as either on the right of

987
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 6: the left. It's actually the inside versus the outside. And

988
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 6: what he could do for weird, bizarre reasons, but he

989
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 6: could convince people that he was on the outside ends,

990
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 6: that he was taking on this deeply corrupted, broken government,

991
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 6: he was going to shake it up and make it

992
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 6: work for ordinary people. And so at the surface level,

993
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 6: what he says is quite attractive. If you're like an

994
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 6: average American recognizing just how screwed you are. You know,

995
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 6: we've been now celebrating fifty years where the average income

996
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 6: for ordinary workers has not gone up at all, literally

997
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 6: not at all, and so you can imagine in that

998
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 6: world the frustration that leads people to say, just break

999
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 6: it down and let's start all over again. And he

1000
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 6: appear to that. Now, you know, the reality is it's

1001
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 6: just a con game and its actual strategy is to

1002
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 6: empower entrench the wealthiest, and that's in fact what he's

1003
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 6: executing on right now. And so the only question is

1004
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 6: whether that eventually breaks through people realize the populism that

1005
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 6: they are celebrating that I celebrate. I totally idea. I

1006
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 6: totally identify with the populist message here, but it's got

1007
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 6: to be a populist message. It's actually helping ordinary people

1008
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 6: as opposed to just more help for the billionaires.

1009
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 1: Right, And this is why what you wrote about Doge

1010
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: is so important. So Doge what it really is, we're

1011
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: not even going to talk about right now. But the

1012
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: idea of it was to sort of embra to give

1013
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 1: a sort of populist vein to government.

1014
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 3: Correct.

1015
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, and it's it's a great idea Let's make

1016
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 6: government efficient. Let's make it deliver its services at the

1017
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 6: same or better services at the same or lower cost.

1018
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 6: That's what efficiency is, and who could be against it?

1019
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 6: And that should be its measure. You know, I think

1020
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 6: that Reagan like famously said in nineteen eighty four, not

1021
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 6: that you would remember, Molly, but in nineteen eighty four

1022
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 6: Reagan said, are you better off today? I mean nineteen

1023
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 6: eighties that are you better off than you were four

1024
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 6: years ago? I think we should start saying is your

1025
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 6: government working better today than it was four years ago?

1026
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 6: Because what's absolutely clear is that this Doge strategy of

1027
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 6: taking a chainsaw to everything is going to break government.

1028
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 6: Government is not going to be able to function. So

1029
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 6: the clearest thing that's going to come out of all

1030
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 6: of this is like, no real savings and just make

1031
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 6: the government so it doesn't work anymore. And like nobody

1032
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 6: can celebrate that. Nobody should celebrate that except the crazy

1033
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 6: libertarian Peter Thiel types who just want to get rid

1034
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 6: of government and just live in their little I rand

1035
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 6: island somewhere and do whatever else they do.

1036
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: During the summer, spent all all this time interviewing really

1037
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: smart academics talking about what Project twenty twenty five would

1038
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: look like, wildly unpopular. Donald Trump disavowed it, so mainstream

1039
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: media was like, well, obviously he's not going to do

1040
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: it because he said he wasn't going to do it,

1041
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: which of course obviously he was totally going to do it.

1042
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: And the ethos of it is the sort of dream

1043
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: of all Republican donors, right strip the government to the

1044
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 1: studs and all the FDR stuff and all the Carter

1045
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: stuff go in there and just you know, have taxes

1046
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: and that's pretty much it, you know what I mean,

1047
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: like ultimately, and so as we watch that happen, there

1048
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: are definitely a percentage of Trump's people who are just

1049
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: delighted to see the organization fail.

1050
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 6: Yes, they want to see government fail because it just

1051
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 6: doubles down their argument that we can't rely on government

1052
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 6: to do anything. So let's just dismantle more and more

1053
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 6: of it, Like why are you paying taxes to a

1054
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 6: system that doesn't work? The game is like just a

1055
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 6: numbers game here though, because yes, there's a certain number

1056
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 6: of Trump's supporters who are wealthy enough to live with

1057
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 6: out the support of the state. But the rest of us,

1058
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 6: you know, we depend upon like services, security, infrastructure, all

1059
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 6: the things that makes it possible to function. So the

1060
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 6: point is like to the extent those people's lives become

1061
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 6: worse because of this chaos, they'll begin to wake up

1062
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 6: to it. And I think that's the question. That's the opportunity. Well,

1063
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 6: I mean, that's the chat, that's the that's the opportunity

1064
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 6: that we've got to find a way to act on.

1065
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 6: We've got to find a way to channel people's attention

1066
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 6: to not this perpetual anti Trump rheteric, right, but the

1067
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 6: but the rhetoric around populism, like let's celebrate the idea

1068
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 6: of a government that actually is efficient and working for

1069
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 6: people and delivering you know, and that terrible ad that

1070
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,240
Speaker 6: they did where they're trashing the trans support that Harris

1071
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 6: did and that ends with she's for they them, he's

1072
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 6: for you. Well, okay, who is who's the you in

1073
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 6: that statement? Like it turns out it's just the super

1074
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 6: wealthy and it's again any he plays this game and

1075
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 6: again and again it gets away with it. We finally

1076
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 6: got away got to get away to like focus people

1077
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 6: enough so that they can see it, because they're gonna

1078
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 6: feel I mean, unlike the first Trump administration, Like you know,

1079
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 6: he came in and he promised the same tax cut,

1080
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 6: saying like middle class task cut. And of course by

1081
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 6: the time the dealing was done, all the middle class

1082
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 6: stuff was taken out. It was only a tax cut

1083
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 6: for the super wealthy and corporations. The same thing's gonna

1084
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 6: happen this time, but that wasn't as noticeable to ordinary

1085
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 6: people as this breaking government will be. Like when the

1086
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 6: government's just broken, people are gonna be like, what shiites

1087
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 6: this ridiculous. I don't get my chat, my my social

1088
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 6: Security check or Medicare is being cut or whatever.

1089
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: You keep our social Security for your social Security number

1090
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 1: for your baby in mace right the right, like the root. Yeah,

1091
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: that was reporting I saw today. I mean again, maybe it's.

1092
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 2: To hear the rest of the interview. Head over to

1093
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 2: YouTube and search from Fast Politics with Molly Jung Fast.

1094
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 3: No Full Jesse Cannon mollye.

1095
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 2: So you know what I think of who I want

1096
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: in a senior advisor to the State Department nineteen years old,

1097
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 2: maybe a nickname like big Balls and somebody who previously

1098
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 2: leaked confidential information to a competitor. That sounds like a

1099
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 2: great resume to me.

1100
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Big Balls.

1101
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: You'll remember Big Balls as a guy you want as

1102
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: a senior advisor in the State Department. Again, these are

1103
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:31,479
Speaker 1: yet another member of Elon Mush's cabinet of deplorables. They

1104
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 1: are young, they are intach and they are running your

1105
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: federal government right now. He is a minion.

1106
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 3: He has the broccoli haircut. He is in it al

1107
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 3: paca bro.

1108
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 2: That the preferred term, Molly.

1109
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a paca bro. Big Ball's significant role in

1110
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: the State Department. It makes sense because he's really smart.

1111
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: He's a senior advisor in the Bureau of Diplomatic Technology.

1112
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: The Washington Reports is a data hub that serves in

1113
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: an IT. I mean, you know this guy, We're so fucked.

1114
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: I mean, this is my moment of fuckery and Jesus,

1115
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: it's bad.

1116
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:11,399
Speaker 3: That's it for.

1117
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 1: This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

1118
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

1119
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

1120
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1121
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.