1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. My wife likes to say 2 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: that she loves love. Now. I think that all of 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: us have this kind of romanticized view of what it 4 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: means to love somebody. But for some, I guess their 5 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: perception of love or the way love is expressed, is 6 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: in a different atmosphere from many of us. I've never 7 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: thought of integrating the term knife play into an expression 8 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: that even remotely resembles romantic love. But the case I'm 9 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: going to lay on you today is beyond anything I've covered. Really, 10 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't occur here in the US. It's actually in 11 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,639 Speaker 1: Great Britain, England specifically, which I've traveled too many times 12 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: and that I have an incredible affection for. But what 13 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: happened in this little town, in this space is absolutely 14 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: beyond the pale. Today I'm going to talk about the 15 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: murder of Frankie Fitzgerald and his girlfriend that perpetrated this crime, 16 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: Shak Robes. I am Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 17 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: Body Bags. Dave mac my good buddy, is a senior 18 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: crime reporter for Crime on Want. I want to apologize 19 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: to you in advance for springing this case on you. 20 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: There's no saying. In the South, some people say you 21 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: get something in your mind that's so horrible, they'll actually say, well, thanks, 22 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to slaughter a hog get that 23 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: image out of my mind. And in this particular case, 24 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: I got to tell you it ranks right up there 25 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: all the stuff that we cover on body bags. I 26 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: need some more reorientation here. Perhaps maybe you can offer 27 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: that up, Dave. I don't know. 28 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: I don't think I have a degree in psychology or 29 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: sociology that could help break this down, Joe. But I 30 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: will tell you this. There's an old saying pretty is 31 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: as pretty does, and this twenty seven year old Shay 32 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: Groves is physically attractive on the outside. When you get 33 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: down to the nitty gritty of who that individual is 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: not very pretty. Matter of fact, it's pretty disgusting, and 35 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: Shay Groves is kind of the definition of that. When 36 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: we were looking at this story, big big story in 37 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: Great Britain, not so much here. He did get some 38 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: play in the US, but huge in Great Britain. And 39 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: it goes back to the all the photos. Young people 40 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: now live their lives online and that means a lot 41 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: of pictures, a lot of stories and things like that. 42 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: Oftentimes we can see somebody over the years either devolve 43 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: or evolve in their thinking and how they look at 44 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 2: themselves in the world. But in her case, just just 45 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: throw it out there. Shay Grows even buy our best 46 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: day estimation from her friends, was always a bit of 47 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 2: a weirdo even as a child. Shay groves when she 48 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: was younger, how little girls dress up in colorful outfits 49 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: and things. She didn't go full on goth look at 50 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: five years old, but she was bending that way. But 51 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: the thing that really catches the attention for this case 52 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: in particular is the fact that she is quote unquote 53 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: obsessed with serial killers. I don't know how you go 54 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: past it when somebody is obsessed with serial killers and 55 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: has pictures of them framed in their home. I'm going 56 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: to tell you what, Joe, If you're that person and 57 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: somebody in your world dies a violent death, who do 58 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: you think the cops you're looking at? 59 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: First, there's this finn line that is easy to cross, 60 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: perhaps where there's this fascination with the morbid, and certainly 61 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: we explore many of these horrible events that have occurred 62 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: and try to put some sense to it. If you will. 63 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: From a scientific standpoint, I don't know that there's a 64 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: necessarily a way you can take the measure of it 65 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: day in and day out. And what is it in 66 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: your life to get you to the point where you're 67 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: going to frame a picture of Ted Bundy and hang 68 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: it on your wall, and so that every day when 69 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: you get up to start your day, maybe to have 70 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: a cup of coffee or as the Brits say, have 71 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: a cup of tea to get the day rolling. There 72 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: you are eye to eye with a person that's arguably 73 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: a monster. I've seen the pictures of her apartment. If 74 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: you're looking at Ted, you look to the left. Oh 75 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: my gosh, there's Richard Ramiz, the nightstalker who does this. 76 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: There's even a charcoal of Jeffrey Dahmer hanging on the 77 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: wall of this home. Say what you will about the 78 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: Impressionists went about reproductions, But if I had a choice, 79 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: I think I'd much rather look at lily pads by Monet, 80 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: you know, to be created with, to sip, to sit 81 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: my morning, my morning off you with and meditate on things. 82 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: So this is what you're filling your mind with day 83 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: in and day out. And people make light of this. 84 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: There's any number of memes out there, little clips that 85 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: are floating about on social media, you know, where they'll 86 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: say what my husband thinks I'm listening to as opposed 87 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: to what I'm actually listening to. And then you hear 88 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: this narrator's voice that says, this person murdered her husband 89 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. And it's quite comical. But now 90 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: you kind of have a touch of reality with this 91 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: when you enter the space. This is her private space, 92 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: this is her home, and yet it is festooned with 93 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: all manner of these images that are quite chilling. And 94 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: if you take the totality of what each one of 95 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: these monsters has done, and you were to kind of 96 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: calculate that and pilot up and you think about all 97 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: of the sorrow and the misery and the horror that's 98 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: associated with each one of these people that hangs on 99 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: her wall. It's quite staggering to think that an individual 100 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: could in fact become this obsessed with these individuals who 101 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: are arguably some of the most evil people that have 102 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: ever entered Armand's eye. 103 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 2: You know, I'm glad you pointed out what these pictures 104 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 2: represented inside the home. You actually alluded to Monette and 105 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: Lily's Other Fields, which is a beautiful painting. It has 106 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: sold many times over from multiple millions of dollars. So 107 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: you've got your choice. Do I get a reproduction of that? 108 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: Or do I frame photos of the nice stocker, Ted 109 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: Bundy and others. On top of all that, remember this 110 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: just Scott Morgan. Shae Groves has a daughter. So as 111 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: you're trying to raise a child, do you think it's 112 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 2: in the child's best interest for you to surround that 113 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 2: child with happy, wonderful, colorful pictures of beautiful things and 114 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: love or of the most evil, darkest things you can find. 115 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: Because what we're seeing in the life of Shad Groves 116 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: is that after having her daughter, her life did not 117 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: around and start becoming more focused on happy thoughts and 118 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: a happy place, but actually continued to go deeper and 119 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: deeper and darker and darker. To set this table very quickly, 120 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: Shay Groves and Frankie Fitzgerald were in a romantic relationship 121 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: for about six months on and off, is what it says. 122 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: But in six months time to have a relationship, there 123 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: are going to be a few ups and downs, but 124 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: that's really the limit here. I thought they'd been together 125 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: much longer. According to her friend, Shay Groves was a 126 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: very controlling person. She had very few friends, but the 127 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: friends she did have, she was able to control them, 128 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: manipulate them. She had power over them. And one of 129 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: the things that did come up about Shay Groves is 130 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: even as a little girl, she loved the Chucky doll, 131 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: that crazy redheaded killer Chucky that spawned a number of movies. 132 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 2: She loved Chucky. Look, it's one thing for a doll 133 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: to be kind of funny. You know, a horror movie 134 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: with a doll named Chucky. It's funny. Fine, But she 135 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: started referring to some of her friends as Chucky. That 136 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: was like her thing. She was always limited to a 137 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: small group of friends, although she was close to them, 138 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: and she would manipulate them and their situations. And she 139 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: and Frankie Fitzgerald for about six months, on and off, 140 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: they had a very sexual relationship. I say that because 141 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: everything about what we found out in this case it 142 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: seemed to be centered on their sex life. She was 143 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: obsessed with her sex life with Frankie Fitzgerald and even 144 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: used his prowess in the bedroom against him. Later on, 145 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: as the police were zeroing in because one has to remember, 146 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 2: if somebody you're close to dies and the police come 147 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: to talk to you and they find pretty much a 148 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: museum for the worst criminal killers of all time in 149 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: your house, you're going to be a suspect. Here we 150 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: go back to back. The Shae Grove story starts with 151 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:59,359 Speaker 2: her and Frankie Fitzgerald in a very active sexual relationship. 152 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: She has videos that she is sending to friends to 153 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: try to set it up that she's a victim Joe 154 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: actually saying that he was raping her, he was abusing her. 155 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: But even her best friend at the time saw these 156 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: videos she was using to try to manipulate her friends 157 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: and said, this is a really bad editing job. She 158 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: tried to edit it to make it look like he 159 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: was raping her, when in fact it was all a stage. 160 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: The whole thing was a big setup. 161 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: If you're an investigator and you walk into this environment 162 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: and you're trying to take the measure of it relative 163 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: to what's going on, Because as investigators, we walk in 164 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: to a location where a death has occurred, and we 165 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: come in cold. There's a high probability that you've never 166 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: met the person that you're about to look into their life. 167 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: Unless you're in a very small location, you're not going 168 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: to know the victim. Most of the time, you're not 169 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: going to know the perpetrator. Every now and then you'll 170 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: have police that have particularly uniform police officers that will 171 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: have gone out to a scene where there is domestic 172 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: instability and they'll have to calm things down. I've had 173 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: this happen a number of times where I'll arrive at 174 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: a homicide scene and There'll be a young patrol officer 175 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: there and I'll go up and talk to them. Do 176 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: you come to this address very frequent? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 177 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: I've been here several times. They love to break glass 178 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: and bust furniture and yell at one another. There's been 179 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: a couple of punches thrown over the years, but we 180 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: could get them settled down. Or there's a domestic violence 181 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: issue that has come up. They've both gone to chord 182 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: on it. Once had restraining orders, but yet the other 183 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: one chose to move back with the individual, and you'll 184 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: get this kind of long serial history that goes along 185 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: with it. But for investigators, when you show up the scene, 186 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: there's a high probability you're not going to know either one. 187 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: So first impressions, right, you walk in to a location, 188 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: and trust me, if you're an investigator, you've been to 189 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: enough seminars over the years, even if you don't follow 190 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: a true crime. The stuff that we learn about, the 191 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: things that we read, the old cases that we review 192 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: to try to understand how an earlier generation of investigators 193 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: worked the case. You're gonna be familiar with some of 194 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: these images hanging on the wall, and I hate to 195 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: use the word iconic, but you begin to think about 196 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: you can't go anywhere without seeing a picture of Dahmer 197 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: or John way Gacy or hillside stranglers or even the nightstalker. 198 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: They're gonna be there. In your mind, you're gonna see that. 199 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: But then when you walk into this kind of domestic 200 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: situation and you've got these images hanging all about, and 201 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: you're thinking, what what does this say about the individual 202 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: that lives in this environment, that exist within this environment? 203 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: It kind of denotes that their mind is focused in 204 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: one particular area. And then when it comes to these 205 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: two you had mentioned the manipulation of the video, how 206 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: do you do that? Well? She had a camera that 207 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: was set up in her bedroom where she would tape 208 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: all of her sex acts with Fitzgerald, and for whatever reason, 209 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: she'd go back and review them. The sex life that 210 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: they had had a level of violence to it. They 211 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: were into bondage, they were into sado masochism, and maybe retrospectively, 212 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: they would go back take a look at the videos 213 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: and it would sexually excite them or arouse them, or 214 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: whatever the case might be. So she apparently had whole catalog. 215 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: You'd mentioned a relationship that had taken place over six 216 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: month period. Just think about this for a second. You're 217 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: with someone for let's face it, a very short period 218 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: of time, six months, and your situation has evolved or 219 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: devolved to the point where you're engaged in dangerous behavior 220 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: in the bedroom. I'd mentioned earlier she was famously into 221 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: knife play. Now what does that mean. Well, knife play 222 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: generally is where individuals will high an individual up, and 223 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: after they've tied them up, they'll take out an edged weapon, perhaps, 224 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: and while they're in the midst of having sex, the 225 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: blade is placed against the throat, or maybe it's placed 226 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: just adjacent to the eye in a threatening manner, and 227 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: this causes arousal. So this is being taped over and 228 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: over and over again. And you really wonder, Dave, You 229 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: really wonder what was it that, of all the times, 230 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: out of all the times that they've engaged in this 231 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: behavior over a six month period, what actually led her 232 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: to cut his throat? 233 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: Dave? 234 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: When I smell bleach, I guess I could think of 235 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: our laundry room here at home. But one of the 236 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: things I always think of is the time that I 237 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: spent working in the morgue. For all of those years, 238 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: Bleach was central to what I would use in order 239 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: to clean with. And that's after I'd applied a detergent 240 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: to the surrounding area to scrub things down, and then 241 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: as a final kind of exclamation point on the morgue 242 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: and kind of the finishing touches, I would wipe everything 243 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: down with bleach. And that smell lingers, doesn't it. Can 244 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: you imagine when the police show up at a scene 245 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: and you have someone that is deceased, that smell of 246 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: bleach hits you full force in the face. I would 247 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: think that you would begin to wonder what has occurred 248 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: in here. 249 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: I'm telling you this is a freaky story that I've 250 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: had trouble just getting past. But you said something a 251 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: minute ago and it kind of caught my attention and 252 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: throwing this out here for you because it is body 253 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I wonder if Shay Groves 254 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: actually determined she was going to commit this murder before 255 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: she ever met Frankie Fitzgerald. And the reason I say 256 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: that is in six months time she went from meeting 257 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 2: in a pub to putting him in the ground. And 258 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: we have her best friend saying that Shay Groves used 259 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: these videotapes of sex in previous relationships. She used these 260 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: videos of her having sex with boyfriends as a way 261 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: to manipulate them. She used it for blackmail of previous boyfriends. 262 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: So she was actively filming her sex acts for many months, 263 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: maybe years, before she ever met Frankie Fitzgerald. Then brings 264 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: him in and immediately they're down the sadomasochism path that 265 00:15:53,360 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: included in writing that he Frankie was allowed to wake 266 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: Shay up with violent sex. This is in writing in 267 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: their contract. Okay, the pre planning that went in it 268 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: was to actually be able to videotape this act taking 269 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: place and then use it against him later on saying 270 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: it was rape again. I'm going back to this pre planning. 271 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: Here did she actually find her victim after she decided 272 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: I need these things, because again we've got a woman 273 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: obsessed with serial killers, obsessed with murder, obsessed with the 274 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: idea of killing somebody than she did. So you mentioned 275 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: bleach that cover up as much a part of the 276 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: murder as any part of the crime, because she knew 277 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: she would be the suspect. 278 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: Maybe you're right, Dave, Maybe she had thought about these 279 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: things for so long where she had contemplated doing this, 280 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: had kind of toyed around with it. As it turns out, 281 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: she was thinking about how to get away with crimes 282 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: based upon things that she had seen in true crime 283 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: that she could certainly have videography, and as you had mentioned, 284 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: the fact that she presented as a piece of evidence 285 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: if you will. There's no shame here, by the way, either. 286 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: See look at this video that I've created, and you 287 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: can see him clearly here being aggressive towards me sexually. 288 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: He's attempting to rape me. I was in fear of 289 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: my life and all of this sort of thing. So 290 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: that takes some bit of planning to do, and not 291 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: just the planning, but the execution of just that bit there. 292 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: She had also considered the idea that maybe after she 293 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: perpetrates this horrible crime against mister Fitzgerald, that she's going 294 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: to need bleach to clean up afterwards. You think about 295 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: that just for a second. What did she absorb from 296 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: watching true crime documentaries perhaps or reading about the exploits 297 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: of serial killers that, by the way, many of these 298 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: individuals had gotten away with crimes for protracted period of 299 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: time before they were ever caught. And here's one more 300 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 1: I'll throw at you if you like that one. What 301 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: if this was just going to be an attempt at 302 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: killing for the first time, with maybe thoughts extending out 303 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: into the future. If I can do it one time, 304 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: maybe I can do it again. And she's got a 305 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: child living in the house with her. Think about that. 306 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: When you consider what this place is populated with, it's 307 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: absolutely in totally pure evil. Day investigators walk into an 308 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: environments that I've often made comments about, we're always have 309 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: to understand the abnormal in the context of the normal. 310 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: And when I say this, this is not a battlefield, 311 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: this is not a slaughterhouse. This is a home. Think 312 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: about what home means, and then you look at what 313 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: has occurred in this home and what occurs in so 314 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: many other places that you're having to take the measure 315 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: of as an investigator and trying to make sense of 316 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: it all. When you see a young man whose life 317 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: has just been drained out of him, literally, and you 318 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: think about what has to occur, What was it that 319 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: brought them to this point that such violence would be 320 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: exacted upon someone like Frankie Fitzgerald. 321 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: You mentioned a couple of things during the course of 322 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: the program today, and one of those was knife play. 323 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: We know that Jay Grose was obsessed with serial killers murder. 324 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: She had gone down a path of darkness on the outside. 325 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 2: The image she projected to the outside world was of 326 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: a tatted up young woman with a lot of piercings, 327 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: and they were not happy hollygo lightly type of piercings 328 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: and tattoos. These were really dark. I'm really curious here 329 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: because you mentioned knife play and the fact that Shay 330 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: Groves actually killed Frankie Fitzgerald, her boyfriend air quotes in 331 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 2: bed and everything I'm seeing is that she sliced his 332 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 2: throat and stabbed him multiple times, like what twenty five 333 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 2: to forty times? But there are multiple different knives here 334 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: at play four specific types of knives, but one was 335 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 2: referred to as a dagger. Others were referred to as 336 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: bladed cutlery. I'm looking at this going okay, help me understand, 337 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, what we're actually dealing with here in 338 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: terms of the knives and the actual act of slicing 339 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: or punging. 340 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: When you throw up the word dagger, it has a 341 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: very Shakespearean ring to it because daggers were carried by 342 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: people for their utility. It wasn't just merely an implement 343 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: that was used to protect yourself with. The Romans used 344 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: them famously to open oysters. They loved oysters, and they 345 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: were used through time for any number of things. You 346 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: could carve a meal with them. But what sets a 347 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: dagger apart from say, other edged weapons, is that it's 348 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: a double edged weapon. So it's not like you have 349 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: this blunt spine. Think of any kind of knife that 350 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: you take out of your drawer at home. Most knives 351 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: that you have in a home are going to have 352 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: this kind of blunt spine that runs away from the 353 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: hilt and goes out to the tip and then tip 354 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: curves back down onto the bladed surface. So you've got 355 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: a sharp surface and you've got kind of a blunted surface. 356 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: When you look at a single edged knife wound compared 357 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:10,479 Speaker 1: to a double edged wound, it is completely different. Some 358 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: people refer to it as the winking eye. A single 359 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: edged weapon, when you take a look at it, at first, 360 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: it has a sharp edge or point. It comes to 361 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: a very acute point on one side, and then the 362 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: other side is kind of blunted looking. When you look 363 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: at it close enough, you begin to see an eye. Conversely, 364 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: when you take a look at a double edged weapon, 365 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: such as a dagger, it's going to have two distinct 366 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: acute points on either side of it. How these things 367 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: are going to appear is going to be dependent upon 368 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: where you are stabbed. We have contour lines that run 369 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: all over the course of our skin throughout our body. 370 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, when physicians learn how to 371 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: conduct even minor surgery, they're taught about something called the 372 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: lines of languor. And lines of Langer are these contour 373 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,239 Speaker 1: lines that run throughout our body, and they have to 374 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: do with the tension of the skin and how we're 375 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: kind of constructed. And if you go opposing to the 376 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: lines of Langer, you get these really nasty looking cuts 377 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: that are open and gaping. It doesn't mean the weapon 378 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: was any larger than say, where they're not as gaping. 379 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: It's just that you've gone across the grain, if you will, 380 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: and so it opens up. So with surgeons, when they 381 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: make an incision into someone, they follow the line of Langer, 382 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: and if they do this, then you're not going to 383 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: have as nasty a scar. If they go against the grain, 384 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: that opens up in this very horrific kind of way. 385 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: When you're reading these wounds, you have to be very 386 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: very careful. Actually in the more one of the things 387 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: that we'll do sometimes is you've heard of us doing 388 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: tape lifts, where we're lifting fragile evidence, trace evidence, this 389 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing. What we will do many times is 390 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: we've got one of these big gaping wounds, we'll actually 391 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: take scotch tape after we've cleaned the wound, and will 392 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: place the scotch tape over both sides of the wound 393 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: and draw it together so that we can get an 394 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: idea of the orientation of the wound, because if it's 395 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: gone across the grain, you might not be able to 396 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: appreciate it as it had insulted the body initially, so 397 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: you have to be mindful of that. When you're in 398 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: the morgue. You take a look at all of these 399 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: things and it gives you ideas to the orientation. Now, 400 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: what we have here in this case with Frankie Fitzgerald 401 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: is that his throat was in fact cut. And I 402 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: find it interesting their language is a bit different than ours. 403 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: In the court documents when you begin to read about 404 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: this case, they state that he had a catastrophic loss 405 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: of blood. That's such a very British thing to say. 406 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: Here in the US we would say, well, he bled 407 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: to death. They're saying it was a catastrophic loss of blood, 408 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: and in medical terminology we would say that he ex sanguinated, 409 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: which means the volume of blood that he loss was 410 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: incompatible with life. That's what it came down to. 411 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: Is that because of the throat slash, meaning the other 412 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 2: stab wounds. 413 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: Perhaps that's a good point. It is a cataclysmic event 414 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: from a physiological standpoint, when you've got this knife being 415 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: plunged into him. Now he's obviously in a very submissive 416 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: position when this has occurred. You have to imagine that 417 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: she's on top of him. The question you would want 418 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: to ask is how do you perpetrate this many insults 419 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: to his body? Was he restrained in some way or 420 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: was he drugged? Or how did he get into this 421 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 1: position where he could not fend her off? That's an 422 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: important question here, I think, and it goes to the 423 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: lifestyle that they were engaging in. You have submissives and 424 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: you have dominance. They lived by this ethos of bondage 425 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: and sado masochism and these sorts of things. So was 426 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: he in a submissive position? Did he see this on 427 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: his horizon? Was he submitting to her when this happened. 428 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: When you go back and you look at the injuries, 429 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: in order to assess these injuries, you would have to 430 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: take each one one by one and consider the location anatomically. 431 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: Are they in the middle line of the chest or 432 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: in the side of the chest? Also, are any of 433 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: these post mortem? And that's a big factor here, Dave, 434 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: because if she's into knife play and she's into serial killers. 435 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: Some of the hallmarks of serial killers, not every one 436 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: of them obviously, but many of them is what will 437 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: they do with bodies after they're deceased? Well, sometimes there's 438 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: a further attempt to disfigure the body or to abuse 439 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: a body. So you would want to take the measure 440 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: of that to try to understand is there hemorrhage in 441 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: all of these wounds? Are all of these in the 442 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: throes of death what we refer to the Perry mortem state. 443 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,719 Speaker 1: You have this initial area where he was attacked. How 444 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: much blood was associated with this? We'd mentioned the throat 445 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: being cut, So if you're bleeding out through this insult 446 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: to the throat, which most of these that you see 447 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: are wide and gaping, and again that goes to these 448 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: contour lines that i'd mentioned in the body. If you're 449 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: cutting across the grain, the throat will open up significantly, 450 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: because people can have their throat cut without it being fatal. 451 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: But if you get into the area where you're down 452 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: into these vessels where you're thinking about, particularly the carotids, 453 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: you're down that deep, which is a couple of centimeters 454 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: below the surface of the skin, and then you go 455 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: across the trachea, which, for lack of a better term, 456 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: is the wind pipe. There's things that we can look for, say, 457 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: for instance, in the lungs, well, if the throat is cut, 458 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: you're still breathing, perhaps or attempting to breathe, you're gasping. 459 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,479 Speaker 1: Guess what you're going to find down in the airway. 460 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: You're gonna find blood, and sometimes you will find blood 461 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: within the lungs, depending upon how long the individual. And 462 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,239 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about where we have what's referred to 463 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: as plural effusion, where the chest cavity is filled with 464 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: blood and the lungs are floating in it. That's not 465 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I'm talking about when there's an insult 466 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: to the airway and people actually aspirate blood where they 467 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: draw it in when they're taking in their breath and 468 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: it just kind of goes back into the lungs and 469 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: you can find it when the lungs are dissected. That's 470 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating too. And all of this goes to time, 471 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: doesn't it. You begin to think about how much time 472 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: did this take? How much time did she spend with him? 473 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: Was it a torture event? Because knives have been used 474 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: over the ages to torment and to terrorize people. Think 475 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: back to what our initial premise was with her, where 476 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: she has stated openly that they engaged in quote unquote 477 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: knife play. Was she ultimately living out a fantasy here 478 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: that of course wound up in the death of Frankie Fitzgerald. 479 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.