WEBVTT - One Eyed Wolf 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.120 George was pretty much my brother. I mean, if I 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.000 was ever going to have anybody I considered brother, it 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:10.520 would have been him. How would you describe him? Hard working, 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.720 down to hers boy, do anything in the world for anybody. 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.080 If I was broke down three states over at two 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.400 o'clock in the morning, I could call him. He's about 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.320 the only one that I miss is George Trump. I'm sorry. 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.000 So how did George get wrapped up into this? Well, 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.880 since they was young, they was beat into his head 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:32.720 that he always had to take care of his little brother, 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.560 no matter what. Can't let nobody heard his little brother 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.680 always had to take his little brother's side, no matter what. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:40.680 And I think I'd had something to do with it. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:51.479 This is the Piketon Massacre. Returned to Pike County season three, 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:58.320 episode five, One Eyed Wolf. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.200 producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Ledeger and Jeff Shane. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.399 George Wagner is a waiting trial in Pike County for 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.800 his involvement in the murders of the Roden family. He's 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.920 pleaded not guilty after two seasons of reporting details of 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.640 what allegedly went down on the night of April twenty first, 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:20.800 twenty sixteen have slowly come into focus, but we still 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.240 know little about the eldest son of the Wagner clan, 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.960 George Wagner. In this episode, we talked to the people 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.880 who knew George the best and delve into why many 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.440 are still trying to comprehend his potential involvement in the 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:39.000 piked of Nassacre. In May of twenty seventeen, thirteen months 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.880 after the murders, investigators sent a swat team to the 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.800 Wagner's property to search for evidence. Around that time, George 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.640 changed his social media profile picture and an online group 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.200 picked it up immediately, screenshot at it and posted it. 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:58.360 Here's an anonymous Wagner and Roden family source. It's crazy. 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.560 I don't know what all is out. It's not out. 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.560 But when all this went down, he had posted what 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:05.960 is it called your profile picture of a wolf that 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:10.880 had a chart in one eye. And if you get 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.840 on there and read that Angela is on there and 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.240 tell him he needs to delete it, you know you 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.680 shouldn't be doing that. And then everybody in this group 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.600 that I'm in was like, oh, that's like pointing to 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:27.560 him having shot Kenny, and Angela commented on it really 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.040 questioned you Mark. Everybody in his Facebook group was like, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.840 oh my gosh, he's the one who shot Kenny. Kenneth Roden, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.480 brother of patriarch Chris Roden Senior, was the eighth and 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.120 final victim to be discovered. This was five hours after 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.280 Bobby Joe Manley discovered the first bodies and called nine 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:50.040 one one, I need it's been about to close to 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.720 seven nine nine. Okay. This is family member Donald Stone 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.160 calling from Kenneth's home, seven miles away from the other 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.519 crime scenes all this stuff. It's going to news. I 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.400 just found just found Martezans was again shot and I 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.320 don't know what his address is. Hanting out of the house. 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:11.799 I'm out of the house right now. Is just winning 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.560 or nighting Stone found Kenneth lying in his bed, face up, 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.120 covered in blood. He had dollar bills strewn over the 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.040 lower half of his body. He was the only victim 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.600 killed with a single gunshot wound to the head, specifically 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.720 through his right eye. This is like the picture of 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:35.440 the wolf and George's profile that piqued people's interest online. 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.560 Here's Stephanie and Jeff. It came to our attention that 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.160 in October of twenty eighteen, about a month before the 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.560 Wagners were arrested, George Wagner changed his profile picture to 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.480 a cartoon wolf that has a scar over its right eye, 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:58.000 and on that picture, his mother, Angela Wagner, commented, really, 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:02.920 we can only assume this picture represents Kenneth Roden, who 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.960 was shot in the right eye, and that George Wagner 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:10.560 was somehow bragging or making a callback to the way 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:19.080 Kenneth Rodan was murdered. We do also know that Kenneth 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.120 Roden was really the only victim who was shot just 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.839 once in their right eye, and the significance of that 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.039 might be tied to this photo. It feels like a 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:36.320 stretch a little bit, to be honest. So he posted 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.159 this on October fourth, twenty eighteen, and a few weeks 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.040 prior to that, on September nineteenth, twenty eighteen, is when 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.560 the autopsy notes were released and everyone found out that 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.960 Kenneth was shot in the right eye. And so it 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.840 seems like a bit of a coincidence that we as 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:54.880 the public, find out that Kenneth Roden was shot in 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:59.080 the right eye, and then George Wagner posts this photo 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.680 of a wolf scar over its right eye, and that 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.880 maybe wouldn't be connected. But then if it wasn't, why 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.000 would Angela make that comment? Because if it's just a 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.159 picture of a wolf, like, what does his mom care 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.320 what he posts on Facebook? And it doesn't have this 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:18.119 kind of deeper meaning. So much has been made about 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:23.559 this online and in various different Facebook groups. It could 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.880 really just be a complete coincidence. It could, but we 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.600 can only assume what the Wagners did. I think it's 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:33.039 fair to scrutinize all of their behavior prior to the 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.640 arrests and following the murders. What would be the significance 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:40.359 of that. Either he's bragging or is he giving a 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:44.599 signal to someone else? What is the connective tissue there? 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.480 The way I read into it is that he's bragging 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:53.359 about the murders. Why would he do that? We do 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.320 know they get arrested one month later. Many people in 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.760 the area were saying that the Wagoners were expecting to 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:05.240 be arrested at any moment, And it really does make 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.000 you wonder why they were so busy on social media 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.120 in the first place. If you feared that you were 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.520 going to be arrested, why would you possibly go on 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:22.720 social media? Period. The way it was presented to me 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:24.640 was that it was more of a matter of fact 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:27.640 that the police think we're tied up in this, we're 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.160 going to get arrested, but we're going to get out 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.279 because we're innocent. It's just a formality. And so the 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:35.200 way I think, at least they were portraying themselves to 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.880 their friends and family was that they were very confident 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.360 about their innocence and all of this, and that they 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:51.359 would not be roped into it too much. Jake was 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.839 the one that literally said he shot five people or 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.960 killed five people in shot six and I don't know, 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.040 I mean, who was the other person? Well anything, I 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.160 think Billy, you know, would have been the crazy one 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.080 to do something, because Billy has always come up with 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:10.200 these crazy schemes. Billy I would not put past to 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.680 do anything. I feel like he would be at a 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.600 gas station and shoot somebody. I probably George would throw 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.720 up if he shot somebody, but I don't know. I 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:26.080 don't know. Last season, it seems like the only thing 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.760 we heard about George Wagner was that he was an 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.600 abusive husband and all around a pretty bad guy. But 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:37.480 as the court proceedings have kind of continued, we've talked 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.600 to more and more people who were close with George 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.400 Wagner and have kind of told us the opposite of 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.760 what we've always heard. Everyone we've spoken to as of 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.160 late has said nothing but nice things about him, basically 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.360 that he was this great guy and they are shocked 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.920 that he was involved in this murder. No one seems 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.760 to have a hard time imagining that Billy, Jake, or 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.520 even Angela could have planned, murdered and covered up crime. 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.520 But people have a really hard time wrapping their head 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:09.400 around George Wagner being involved, which is surprising to me 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.400 because we did hear about how terribly he treated his 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.560 wife when they all lived with his mother, Angela Wagner, 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.720 and the whole accused family mistreated her. This season, yeah, 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.840 we've heard quite the opposite. All we really have so 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.520 far is Jake's plea deal, where he has testified that 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:31.040 that George was only their last minute and really was 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.280 only there to protect Jake from their father, which you know, 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.560 we're still trying to unpack what that actually means. So 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.880 let's play that out really quickly. Just this scenario, as 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.880 we maybe know it right now, according to all of 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.400 these plea agreements, Jake, who has admitted to five killings, 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.760 and Dad Billy Wagner they were the ones that were 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.160 going to go out and do all of the killings. 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.240 So that's five that Jake was going to do or 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.520 has admitted to, leaving the remaining three maybe done by Billy. 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.800 Yet at the very last minute, George, the oldest brother, 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.920 to protect his younger brother, decides to go along with them, 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.120 even though he's been a part of the planning, he 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:19.040 wasn't intending ongoing And now, according to Angela Wagner, she 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:25.120 stayed behind to babysit. So now George tags along. What 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.440 does that mean? Is he equally responsible? Is he not 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.720 responsible at all? He was a part of all the planning, 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.760 so maybe he wasn't one of the trigger pullers. But 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:39.439 it also speaks to the larger question of why would 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:43.760 George Wagner think their father was going to kill or 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:49.440 harm Jake Wagner. It's certainly a good question, and I 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.520 wonder if George's defense will bring that up, because I 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.960 think in the eyes of the law, if you plan 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.880 a murder and you're at the murder, you're pretty culpable 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.920 in the crime, and so whether you're there to protect 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.280 someone else or not, we'll see if that matters and 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.520 how much that will play out in his upcoming trial. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.960 If we're just going to play along with this version 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.360 of a tale, if George Wagner was just tagging along 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.880 to protect Jake Wagner from their father, Billy Wagner, go 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.480 with me here for one quick second, that would imply 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:25.360 that Billy Wagner dad was allegedly going to kill or 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.559 harm Jake Wagner. Why would he do that? Like, why 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.560 would George have to protect Jake from their dad? And 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.480 I guess the only thing that would sort of make 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.480 sense is because maybe Billy Wagner was going to kill 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:48.559 Jake Wagner just so there was nobody left to tournament. Yeah, 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.840 there would have been one less witness. And as we 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.320 know the kind of how the dynamics of the family were, 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.480 Jake and Angela Wagner were very close, and Billy and 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:59.840 George Wagner were very close. So perhaps George felt that 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.760 if he went he could maybe talk some sense for 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.080 lack of a better term, into his dad and protect 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.880 Jake at the same time. It's certainly complicated. It's important 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.920 to note that both George and Billy Wagner have pleaded 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.160 not guilty on all counts and have not yet had 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.800 their day in court. So everything we're talking about is 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.720 just Jake and Angela Wagner's version of events. Otherwise the 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.640 prosecution would not allow their version of events to be, frankly, 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.800 the foundation of their upcoming trials. Yeah, certainly the prosecution 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.520 believes Jake and Angela's version of how things went down 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.480 that night. But it's just important to note that Billy 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:45.520 and George are disputing all this, and it's not just 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.080 us stuff who are trying to unpack this. The people 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.400 who were close with the Wagner family are still kind 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.120 of wrapping their head around all of this, particularly Chris Newcome, who, 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.079 as we know as Angela Wagner's half brother, was very 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.000 close with George and in talking to him numerous times. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.880 He's still really grappling with this whole situation and still 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.360 trying to come to terms with George Wagner's possible involvement. 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.480 And it's been six years since this whole thing happened. 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.599 Chris was born when his older half sister, Angela was 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.080 twenty the age gap kept the two from growing close, 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.880 but Chris was drawn to her boys, specifically to George. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.040 I mean, help me in my nephews. We grew up 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.000 more like brothers than we did in huncle and nephews. 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.400 I'm two and a half years older than Jake, in 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.600 a year and a half older than George. I was 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.520 always closer to George than I was with Jake. Man George, 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:37.719 we'd always go hunting, fishing, camping. He always wanted to 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:39.440 have his own hunting show. Do you know you wanted 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:44.000 to go on TV Hunti's monster deer and turkey and 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.080 elk and stuff like it. I mean he loved hunting 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.120 that much. Sammy Joe spoke with us earlier in the 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.319 season about both the Rodin and Wagner families. She dated 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.760 Frankie Rodin from seventh to ninth grade and was involved 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.959 with Jake Wagner at times, but she also had a 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.240 crush on George. I probably shouldn't say this, but Jake 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:11.000 we pretty much stopped talking because I think Angela thought 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.680 I was trying to get Jake to break up with Hannah, 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.560 and that's not what it was. Because I didn't want Jake. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.800 I wanted George. What did you like A bad George? 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:27.120 Just his goofiness. Honestly, George, he's a big teddy bear. Really. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.439 I remember a time I got a hold of George 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.680 and I told him I was like, I can't afford Christmas. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:33.640 I don't know what to do. And he goes meet 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.960 me at the gas station. He gave me money to 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.960 pay my electric bill and bought my daughter present. Wow, 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.280 so he was like your Santa Claus. Yeah, Like you 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.520 broke my heart when I found out he was married 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.920 the first time. And did you ever confess to George 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:53.160 that you kind of liked him? Nope, Now he'll never know. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.640 He was just a nice guy, good to be around, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.480 you know, didn't really talk too much, but he was 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.880 definitely a nice person. Howard grew up with the Wagners 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.880 and lived near them in both Ohio and Alaska. I 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.560 just remember my sister. I'll keep her name out of him, 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.240 but she kind of had a crush on George and 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.200 she would always talking to him on Facebook and things 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.520 like that. It's very funny because you're the second person 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:21.040 today who has made mention of a family member, specifically 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.520 his sister who kind of loved George. From a distance 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.200 and still have the nicest, kindest things to say of him. 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.480 If I had a daughter and he were hurried, that's 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:32.240 who I would want my daughter nating. He was just 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.040 a great guy. He was super nice, like very friendly. 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:36.880 Jake cab the other hair was kind of secluded, kind 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.360 of recluse, but George was just nice, like all around 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.920 a nice guy. We've been able to speak with a 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.479 whole host of new family members and friends this season. Patricia, 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.400 you may recall, is one of them. I think God 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.360 was no longer with them. Patricia is the mother of 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:01.040 George's ex wife, Tabitha. Tabitha was bullied into relinquishing control 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.920 of her child with George by Angela Wagner. The situation 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.400 was eerily similar to the custody battle between Hanname Rodin 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:15.520 and Jake Wagner that was happening before the massacre. I 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.080 think the only reason that save taps Us from going 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.640 through this same thing was the fact that she didn't 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.640 fight for custody of honor. They had him already, so 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.480 cause him harm to Dabby with them done him any good. 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.160 Patricia claims Angela pulled all the strings within the Wagner 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.360 clan I know the demeanor of Angelis. She tries to 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.880 be the loving, cheering mother. But if you've seen the 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.800 side of Angelis that I've seen, and the way she 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.000 holds your demeanor around me, you could tell that she 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:51.240 was all fake. Dabby wasn't afraid of George, Danna wasn't 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:56.480 afraid of Jake. They were only afraid of Angelas Sammy 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.960 Joe saw firsthand how Angela exerted control over her. She 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:05.640 was just really intimidating. Normally growing up, I was always 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:10.800 with Jake, and then as I got older, the contact 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:16.320 changed from Jake to George because Jake became a struck up. 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:21.120 I'm trying to think of nice, not so hateful words, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:27.880 but he became Angela. Angela took over Tabitha's life as well. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.440 For two years, she lived with them and was not 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.680 allowed to have any contact with me once whoever, because 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.600 Angela didn't want her to. They even went as far 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.720 as taken tabtha cell phone from her because she was 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.320 texting me. Angela knows that Tabeth has always been close 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:47.160 to every one of her sisters, and every one of 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.280 them could have talked to her out it. Every one 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.720 of them could have talked Tabbie out of there, and 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:58.520 Angela knew that we're going to take a break. We'll 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:07.439 be back in a moment. Six years after the murderers, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.000 Chris Nukeam still finds George's potential involvement in the piked 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.480 and massacre very hard to grasp. I mean, I'd have 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:16.440 trusted Georgia was my life and that's the guy's down 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.600 the streets on the matter. So how do you wrap 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.840 your head around that feeling like someone who you trust 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.840 your life with is allegedly being a part of something 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.919 where eight people are dad. So you ask me how 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.360 I deal with it? I guess yeah, I get up, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.639 I do my Chorge, I'll do the work I gotta do. 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:36.920 I spend time with my family, and I go to bed. 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:38.680 I get up the next day and do it again. 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:41.920 I mean I fought for him. I would have never 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:43.920 in a million years believe they'd ever done anything like it, 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:45.959 And when it came out, I mean I just they 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:47.919 made me look like the biggest damn fool were ever 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:52.880 up there. I kid you not, I don't see him 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:58.040 doing anything of the sort like, but of course I 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:04.840 was not there. I don't know what happened. Sammy Joe 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.480 spent time with George after the murders. I asked him. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:13.120 I was like, I can't believe this happened. But George 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.240 like shut me out, like he goes, how could we 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:20.800 do it? There's just something wrong, like he tully shut 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.960 me out, Like I knew sometime was wrong that day 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.000 when we were talking about it, like our Frision trip 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:31.640 was going good and it got wrong real fuck. We 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.720 spoke to a close friend of George's, who, after the 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.359 interview was done, decided it hit a little too close 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.440 to home and requested their voice not be used at all. 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:46.200 Here's Stephanie and Jeff recounting the conversation. This young woman, 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.720 who was very close with the Wagner family, recounted to 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.600 us that the morning of November twenty eighteen, the day 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.679 all of the Wagners were arrested, she had actually been 0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.919 communicating with both George and Angela, and to her, the 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.919 conversations were rather mundane. They were talking about how their 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.160 days were going, what kind of errands they were running. 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.600 And we know that Jake and George were together at 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.280 the time of their arrests, and they were in their 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:17.400 truck running errands and that Angela Wagner was dropping her 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.679 grandkids off at school. They also talked about things like Thanksgiving, 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.000 which was coming up in a couple of weeks, and 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.679 within minutes on ending the conversations, this young woman saw 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.320 the news of the arrests, and after the shock of 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.080 the news, her first thoughts were, it had to have 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:40.800 been Billy and Jake. Angela and George must have been 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.040 covering for them. And again that doesn't make it a 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:47.960 matter of fact, but she was incredibly surprised and steadfast 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:52.680 that George and Angela must have been covering for Billy 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.600 and Jake. Yeah, it paints a picture of what that 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.560 day was like, which is very bizarre because you see 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.360 the news footage of Billy getting caught and the bodycam 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.080 footage minutes before that. They were just living their lives, 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:10.119 helping to get away with murder. Or they were just 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:14.400 expecting to go through the formality of being arrested, being booked, 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.080 being released on bail, and that this would all go away. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.159 I think that's what they really believed at this point. 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:23.679 It doesn't explain why they came back though, So they 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:28.080 came back to care for Billy, Wagner's ailing father. But 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.600 they didn't really move back. They just came back and 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.840 we're staying in that small house that we ultimately saw recently. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.600 But they weren't settled in. Were they just coming back 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.000 with the understanding that they were going to get arrested 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.639 and that would blow over really quickly and then they 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.360 could pick up life and go back to normal. According 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.840 to everyone who knew them, that seemed to be their 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:55.480 frame of mind. Court just wrapped up in Pike County. 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.040 Michelle was there as George Wagner the fourth made an appearance. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.960 He's been covering the Pike County massacres since it happened 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.520 in twenty sixteen. This spring, George Wagner appeared in court 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.800 as part of his pre child hearings. He walked into 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.160 the courtroom unrestrained and dressed in civilian clothes. He's tall, 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:14.960 so he had to bow his head to hear the 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.320 hush direction of his lawyers before he's at for the hearing. 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.840 So like what happened in court today, Chris, this was 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.840 a revealing day here in the Pike County Courthouse. Captain 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:31.080 Seth Hegeman, now with the Westchester Police Department, was a 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.000 special agent with the Bureau of Criminal Investigations back in 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.600 twenty sixteen, and he was one of the lead investigators 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.720 on the Pike County murders. Now Hegeman spent about two 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.840 and a half hours on the stand testifying. Here's the 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.960 police captain's interpretation of a tattoo that George Wagner got 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.919 just a few months after the murders. Obviously, a skulls 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.920 often used to be associated with death immortality, and then 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.920 eight balls is sometimes thought it a symbol of chance. 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.199 But there also should be noted there were eight victims 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:06.520 in the Roden homicides, and then he had tattoos of 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.280 aces and eights that are commonly considered the dead man's 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:15.760 hand and represent death and murder. Here again is Stephanie 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.240 and Jeff. So let's break this down a bit. And 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.439 it's a bit confusing because we were not able to 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:25.359 obtain the entire hearing courtroom footage and instead have to 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.520 fall back on reporting. And different sources have said different 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:33.160 things about when George Wagner got this tattoo. Some news 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.280 sources have said it was before the murders and some 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.840 have said after, So it's not totally clear to us, 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:40.560 which is true. What we do know is that at 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.440 some point George Wagner got a tattoo of a dead 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.600 man's hand. And for those of you who are not 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:50.760 familiar with poker, a dead man's hand is composed of 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.200 eights and aces. It's called the dead man's hand because 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:55.960 it's rumored to be the hand of a man named 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.399 wild Bill Hickcock who was holding it when he was 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.440 shot in the back by arrival and because of that 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.760 the hand is now cursed forever. Which again we don't 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.719 know the link. But if we're going to analyze all 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.760 of the behavior of the Wagner's pre and post murder, 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:16.320 it certainly seems like it's possible that George Wagner knows 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:20.760 this folklore story and decided to get a tattoo because 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:27.960 he himself shot the Rodents. Much has been made online 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:33.639 about their various tattoos and Facebook postings, and yes, you 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:37.120 can read into them for sure. For example, it's speculated 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.359 that the eight ball connects the eight members of the 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:45.400 Rodent family. That's possible, it also could be a big stretch. 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.200 George Wagner's trial is tentatively set to begin two months 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:52.960 from now, based on a recent hearing, the prosecution's case 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.240 is pushing forward with the fundamental argument that the murders 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.600 were a family affair, with George being complicit in the crimes. 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:05.720 They functioned as one unit at all times. Like I said, 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:10.760 they worked together, they homeschooled together. This is demonstrated by factors, 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.600 including that limited two that are residing together in a varying, 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:16.840 insular manner in their entire lives, even while married as adults. 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:23.400 It establishes this conspiracy, It establishes the enterprise. The all 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:27.160