1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: George was pretty much my brother. I mean, if I 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: was ever going to have anybody I considered brother, it 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: would have been him. How would you describe him? Hard working, 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: down to hers boy, do anything in the world for anybody. 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: If I was broke down three states over at two 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, I could call him. He's about 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: the only one that I miss is George Trump. I'm sorry. 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: So how did George get wrapped up into this? Well, 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: since they was young, they was beat into his head 10 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: that he always had to take care of his little brother, 11 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: no matter what. Can't let nobody heard his little brother 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: always had to take his little brother's side, no matter what. 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: And I think I'd had something to do with it. 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: This is the Piketon Massacre. Returned to Pike County season three, 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: episode five, One Eyed Wolf. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Ledeger and Jeff Shane. 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: George Wagner is a waiting trial in Pike County for 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: his involvement in the murders of the Roden family. He's 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty after two seasons of reporting details of 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: what allegedly went down on the night of April twenty first, 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen have slowly come into focus, but we still 22 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: know little about the eldest son of the Wagner clan, 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: George Wagner. In this episode, we talked to the people 24 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: who knew George the best and delve into why many 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: are still trying to comprehend his potential involvement in the 26 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: piked of Nassacre. In May of twenty seventeen, thirteen months 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: after the murders, investigators sent a swat team to the 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Wagner's property to search for evidence. Around that time, George 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: changed his social media profile picture and an online group 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: picked it up immediately, screenshot at it and posted it. 31 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: Here's an anonymous Wagner and Roden family source. It's crazy. 32 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what all is out. It's not out. 33 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: But when all this went down, he had posted what 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: is it called your profile picture of a wolf that 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: had a chart in one eye. And if you get 36 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: on there and read that Angela is on there and 37 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: tell him he needs to delete it, you know you 38 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing that. And then everybody in this group 39 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: that I'm in was like, oh, that's like pointing to 40 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: him having shot Kenny, and Angela commented on it really 41 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: questioned you Mark. Everybody in his Facebook group was like, 42 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, he's the one who shot Kenny. Kenneth Roden, 43 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: brother of patriarch Chris Roden Senior, was the eighth and 44 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: final victim to be discovered. This was five hours after 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: Bobby Joe Manley discovered the first bodies and called nine 46 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: one one, I need it's been about to close to 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: seven nine nine. Okay. This is family member Donald Stone 48 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: calling from Kenneth's home, seven miles away from the other 49 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: crime scenes all this stuff. It's going to news. I 50 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: just found just found Martezans was again shot and I 51 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: don't know what his address is. Hanting out of the house. 52 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: I'm out of the house right now. Is just winning 53 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: or nighting Stone found Kenneth lying in his bed, face up, 54 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: covered in blood. He had dollar bills strewn over the 55 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: lower half of his body. He was the only victim 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: killed with a single gunshot wound to the head, specifically 57 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: through his right eye. This is like the picture of 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: the wolf and George's profile that piqued people's interest online. 59 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie and Jeff. It came to our attention that 60 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: in October of twenty eighteen, about a month before the 61 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: Wagners were arrested, George Wagner changed his profile picture to 62 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: a cartoon wolf that has a scar over its right eye, 63 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: and on that picture, his mother, Angela Wagner, commented, really, 64 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: we can only assume this picture represents Kenneth Roden, who 65 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: was shot in the right eye, and that George Wagner 66 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: was somehow bragging or making a callback to the way 67 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Kenneth Rodan was murdered. We do also know that Kenneth 68 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: Roden was really the only victim who was shot just 69 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: once in their right eye, and the significance of that 70 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: might be tied to this photo. It feels like a 71 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: stretch a little bit, to be honest. So he posted 72 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: this on October fourth, twenty eighteen, and a few weeks 73 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: prior to that, on September nineteenth, twenty eighteen, is when 74 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: the autopsy notes were released and everyone found out that 75 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: Kenneth was shot in the right eye. And so it 76 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: seems like a bit of a coincidence that we as 77 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: the public, find out that Kenneth Roden was shot in 78 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: the right eye, and then George Wagner posts this photo 79 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: of a wolf scar over its right eye, and that 80 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: maybe wouldn't be connected. But then if it wasn't, why 81 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: would Angela make that comment? Because if it's just a 82 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: picture of a wolf, like, what does his mom care 83 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: what he posts on Facebook? And it doesn't have this 84 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,119 Speaker 1: kind of deeper meaning. So much has been made about 85 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 1: this online and in various different Facebook groups. It could 86 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: really just be a complete coincidence. It could, but we 87 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: can only assume what the Wagners did. I think it's 88 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: fair to scrutinize all of their behavior prior to the 89 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: arrests and following the murders. What would be the significance 90 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: of that. Either he's bragging or is he giving a 91 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: signal to someone else? What is the connective tissue there? 92 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: The way I read into it is that he's bragging 93 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: about the murders. Why would he do that? We do 94 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: know they get arrested one month later. Many people in 95 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: the area were saying that the Wagoners were expecting to 96 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: be arrested at any moment, And it really does make 97 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: you wonder why they were so busy on social media 98 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: in the first place. If you feared that you were 99 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: going to be arrested, why would you possibly go on 100 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: social media? Period. The way it was presented to me 101 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: was that it was more of a matter of fact 102 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: that the police think we're tied up in this, we're 103 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: going to get arrested, but we're going to get out 104 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: because we're innocent. It's just a formality. And so the 105 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: way I think, at least they were portraying themselves to 106 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: their friends and family was that they were very confident 107 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: about their innocence and all of this, and that they 108 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: would not be roped into it too much. Jake was 109 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: the one that literally said he shot five people or 110 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: killed five people in shot six and I don't know, 111 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: I mean, who was the other person? Well anything, I 112 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: think Billy, you know, would have been the crazy one 113 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: to do something, because Billy has always come up with 114 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: these crazy schemes. Billy I would not put past to 115 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: do anything. I feel like he would be at a 116 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: gas station and shoot somebody. I probably George would throw 117 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: up if he shot somebody, but I don't know. I 118 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: don't know. Last season, it seems like the only thing 119 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: we heard about George Wagner was that he was an 120 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: abusive husband and all around a pretty bad guy. But 121 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: as the court proceedings have kind of continued, we've talked 122 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: to more and more people who were close with George 123 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: Wagner and have kind of told us the opposite of 124 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: what we've always heard. Everyone we've spoken to as of 125 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: late has said nothing but nice things about him, basically 126 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: that he was this great guy and they are shocked 127 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: that he was involved in this murder. No one seems 128 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: to have a hard time imagining that Billy, Jake, or 129 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: even Angela could have planned, murdered and covered up crime. 130 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: But people have a really hard time wrapping their head 131 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: around George Wagner being involved, which is surprising to me 132 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: because we did hear about how terribly he treated his 133 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: wife when they all lived with his mother, Angela Wagner, 134 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: and the whole accused family mistreated her. This season, yeah, 135 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: we've heard quite the opposite. All we really have so 136 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: far is Jake's plea deal, where he has testified that 137 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: that George was only their last minute and really was 138 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: only there to protect Jake from their father, which you know, 139 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: we're still trying to unpack what that actually means. So 140 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: let's play that out really quickly. Just this scenario, as 141 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: we maybe know it right now, according to all of 142 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: these plea agreements, Jake, who has admitted to five killings, 143 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: and Dad Billy Wagner they were the ones that were 144 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: going to go out and do all of the killings. 145 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: So that's five that Jake was going to do or 146 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: has admitted to, leaving the remaining three maybe done by Billy. 147 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: Yet at the very last minute, George, the oldest brother, 148 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: to protect his younger brother, decides to go along with them, 149 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: even though he's been a part of the planning, he 150 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: wasn't intending ongoing And now, according to Angela Wagner, she 151 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: stayed behind to babysit. So now George tags along. What 152 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: does that mean? Is he equally responsible? Is he not 153 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: responsible at all? He was a part of all the planning, 154 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: so maybe he wasn't one of the trigger pullers. But 155 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: it also speaks to the larger question of why would 156 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: George Wagner think their father was going to kill or 157 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: harm Jake Wagner. It's certainly a good question, and I 158 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: wonder if George's defense will bring that up, because I 159 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: think in the eyes of the law, if you plan 160 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: a murder and you're at the murder, you're pretty culpable 161 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: in the crime, and so whether you're there to protect 162 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: someone else or not, we'll see if that matters and 163 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: how much that will play out in his upcoming trial. 164 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: If we're just going to play along with this version 165 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: of a tale, if George Wagner was just tagging along 166 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: to protect Jake Wagner from their father, Billy Wagner, go 167 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: with me here for one quick second, that would imply 168 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: that Billy Wagner dad was allegedly going to kill or 169 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: harm Jake Wagner. Why would he do that? Like, why 170 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: would George have to protect Jake from their dad? And 171 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: I guess the only thing that would sort of make 172 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: sense is because maybe Billy Wagner was going to kill 173 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner just so there was nobody left to tournament. Yeah, 174 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: there would have been one less witness. And as we 175 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: know the kind of how the dynamics of the family were, 176 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: Jake and Angela Wagner were very close, and Billy and 177 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: George Wagner were very close. So perhaps George felt that 178 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: if he went he could maybe talk some sense for 179 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: lack of a better term, into his dad and protect 180 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: Jake at the same time. It's certainly complicated. It's important 181 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: to note that both George and Billy Wagner have pleaded 182 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: not guilty on all counts and have not yet had 183 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: their day in court. So everything we're talking about is 184 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: just Jake and Angela Wagner's version of events. Otherwise the 185 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: prosecution would not allow their version of events to be, frankly, 186 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: the foundation of their upcoming trials. Yeah, certainly the prosecution 187 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: believes Jake and Angela's version of how things went down 188 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: that night. But it's just important to note that Billy 189 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: and George are disputing all this, and it's not just 190 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: us stuff who are trying to unpack this. The people 191 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: who were close with the Wagner family are still kind 192 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: of wrapping their head around all of this, particularly Chris Newcome, who, 193 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: as we know as Angela Wagner's half brother, was very 194 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: close with George and in talking to him numerous times. 195 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: He's still really grappling with this whole situation and still 196 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: trying to come to terms with George Wagner's possible involvement. 197 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: And it's been six years since this whole thing happened. 198 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: Chris was born when his older half sister, Angela was 199 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: twenty the age gap kept the two from growing close, 200 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: but Chris was drawn to her boys, specifically to George. 201 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: I mean, help me in my nephews. We grew up 202 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: more like brothers than we did in huncle and nephews. 203 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: I'm two and a half years older than Jake, in 204 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: a year and a half older than George. I was 205 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: always closer to George than I was with Jake. Man George, 206 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: we'd always go hunting, fishing, camping. He always wanted to 207 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: have his own hunting show. Do you know you wanted 208 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: to go on TV Hunti's monster deer and turkey and 209 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: elk and stuff like it. I mean he loved hunting 210 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: that much. Sammy Joe spoke with us earlier in the 211 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: season about both the Rodin and Wagner families. She dated 212 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: Frankie Rodin from seventh to ninth grade and was involved 213 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: with Jake Wagner at times, but she also had a 214 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: crush on George. I probably shouldn't say this, but Jake 215 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: we pretty much stopped talking because I think Angela thought 216 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: I was trying to get Jake to break up with Hannah, 217 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: and that's not what it was. Because I didn't want Jake. 218 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: I wanted George. What did you like A bad George? 219 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: Just his goofiness. Honestly, George, he's a big teddy bear. Really. 220 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: I remember a time I got a hold of George 221 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: and I told him I was like, I can't afford Christmas. 222 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. And he goes meet 223 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: me at the gas station. He gave me money to 224 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: pay my electric bill and bought my daughter present. Wow, 225 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: so he was like your Santa Claus. Yeah, Like you 226 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: broke my heart when I found out he was married 227 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: the first time. And did you ever confess to George 228 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: that you kind of liked him? Nope, Now he'll never know. 229 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: He was just a nice guy, good to be around, 230 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, didn't really talk too much, but he was 231 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: definitely a nice person. Howard grew up with the Wagners 232 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: and lived near them in both Ohio and Alaska. I 233 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: just remember my sister. I'll keep her name out of him, 234 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: but she kind of had a crush on George and 235 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: she would always talking to him on Facebook and things 236 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: like that. It's very funny because you're the second person 237 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: today who has made mention of a family member, specifically 238 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: his sister who kind of loved George. From a distance 239 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: and still have the nicest, kindest things to say of him. 240 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: If I had a daughter and he were hurried, that's 241 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: who I would want my daughter nating. He was just 242 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: a great guy. He was super nice, like very friendly. 243 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: Jake cab the other hair was kind of secluded, kind 244 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: of recluse, but George was just nice, like all around 245 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: a nice guy. We've been able to speak with a 246 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,479 Speaker 1: whole host of new family members and friends this season. Patricia, 247 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: you may recall, is one of them. I think God 248 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: was no longer with them. Patricia is the mother of 249 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: George's ex wife, Tabitha. Tabitha was bullied into relinquishing control 250 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: of her child with George by Angela Wagner. The situation 251 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: was eerily similar to the custody battle between Hanname Rodin 252 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner that was happening before the massacre. I 253 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: think the only reason that save taps Us from going 254 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: through this same thing was the fact that she didn't 255 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: fight for custody of honor. They had him already, so 256 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: cause him harm to Dabby with them done him any good. 257 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: Patricia claims Angela pulled all the strings within the Wagner 258 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: clan I know the demeanor of Angelis. She tries to 259 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: be the loving, cheering mother. But if you've seen the 260 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: side of Angelis that I've seen, and the way she 261 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: holds your demeanor around me, you could tell that she 262 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: was all fake. Dabby wasn't afraid of George, Danna wasn't 263 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: afraid of Jake. They were only afraid of Angelas Sammy 264 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: Joe saw firsthand how Angela exerted control over her. She 265 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: was just really intimidating. Normally growing up, I was always 266 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: with Jake, and then as I got older, the contact 267 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: changed from Jake to George because Jake became a struck up. 268 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of nice, not so hateful words, 269 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: but he became Angela. Angela took over Tabitha's life as well. 270 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: For two years, she lived with them and was not 271 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: allowed to have any contact with me once whoever, because 272 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: Angela didn't want her to. They even went as far 273 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: as taken tabtha cell phone from her because she was 274 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: texting me. Angela knows that Tabeth has always been close 275 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: to every one of her sisters, and every one of 276 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: them could have talked to her out it. Every one 277 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: of them could have talked Tabbie out of there, and 278 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: Angela knew that we're going to take a break. We'll 279 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. Six years after the murderers, 280 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: Chris Nukeam still finds George's potential involvement in the piked 281 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: and massacre very hard to grasp. I mean, I'd have 282 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: trusted Georgia was my life and that's the guy's down 283 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: the streets on the matter. So how do you wrap 284 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: your head around that feeling like someone who you trust 285 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: your life with is allegedly being a part of something 286 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: where eight people are dad. So you ask me how 287 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 1: I deal with it? I guess yeah, I get up, 288 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: I do my Chorge, I'll do the work I gotta do. 289 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: I spend time with my family, and I go to bed. 290 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: I get up the next day and do it again. 291 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: I mean I fought for him. I would have never 292 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: in a million years believe they'd ever done anything like it, 293 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 1: And when it came out, I mean I just they 294 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: made me look like the biggest damn fool were ever 295 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: up there. I kid you not, I don't see him 296 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: doing anything of the sort like, but of course I 297 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: was not there. I don't know what happened. Sammy Joe 298 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: spent time with George after the murders. I asked him. 299 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: I was like, I can't believe this happened. But George 300 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: like shut me out, like he goes, how could we 301 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: do it? There's just something wrong, like he tully shut 302 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: me out, Like I knew sometime was wrong that day 303 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: when we were talking about it, like our Frision trip 304 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: was going good and it got wrong real fuck. We 305 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: spoke to a close friend of George's, who, after the 306 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: interview was done, decided it hit a little too close 307 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: to home and requested their voice not be used at all. 308 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie and Jeff recounting the conversation. This young woman, 309 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: who was very close with the Wagner family, recounted to 310 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: us that the morning of November twenty eighteen, the day 311 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: all of the Wagners were arrested, she had actually been 312 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: communicating with both George and Angela, and to her, the 313 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: conversations were rather mundane. They were talking about how their 314 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: days were going, what kind of errands they were running. 315 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: And we know that Jake and George were together at 316 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: the time of their arrests, and they were in their 317 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: truck running errands and that Angela Wagner was dropping her 318 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: grandkids off at school. They also talked about things like Thanksgiving, 319 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: which was coming up in a couple of weeks, and 320 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: within minutes on ending the conversations, this young woman saw 321 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: the news of the arrests, and after the shock of 322 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: the news, her first thoughts were, it had to have 323 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: been Billy and Jake. Angela and George must have been 324 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: covering for them. And again that doesn't make it a 325 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: matter of fact, but she was incredibly surprised and steadfast 326 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: that George and Angela must have been covering for Billy 327 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: and Jake. Yeah, it paints a picture of what that 328 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: day was like, which is very bizarre because you see 329 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: the news footage of Billy getting caught and the bodycam 330 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: footage minutes before that. They were just living their lives, 331 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: helping to get away with murder. Or they were just 332 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: expecting to go through the formality of being arrested, being booked, 333 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: being released on bail, and that this would all go away. 334 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: I think that's what they really believed at this point. 335 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: It doesn't explain why they came back though, So they 336 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: came back to care for Billy, Wagner's ailing father. But 337 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: they didn't really move back. They just came back and 338 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: we're staying in that small house that we ultimately saw recently. 339 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: But they weren't settled in. Were they just coming back 340 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: with the understanding that they were going to get arrested 341 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: and that would blow over really quickly and then they 342 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: could pick up life and go back to normal. According 343 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: to everyone who knew them, that seemed to be their 344 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: frame of mind. Court just wrapped up in Pike County. 345 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: Michelle was there as George Wagner the fourth made an appearance. 346 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: He's been covering the Pike County massacres since it happened 347 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. This spring, George Wagner appeared in court 348 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: as part of his pre child hearings. He walked into 349 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: the courtroom unrestrained and dressed in civilian clothes. He's tall, 350 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: so he had to bow his head to hear the 351 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: hush direction of his lawyers before he's at for the hearing. 352 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: So like what happened in court today, Chris, this was 353 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: a revealing day here in the Pike County Courthouse. Captain 354 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: Seth Hegeman, now with the Westchester Police Department, was a 355 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: special agent with the Bureau of Criminal Investigations back in 356 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, and he was one of the lead investigators 357 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: on the Pike County murders. Now Hegeman spent about two 358 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: and a half hours on the stand testifying. Here's the 359 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: police captain's interpretation of a tattoo that George Wagner got 360 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: just a few months after the murders. Obviously, a skulls 361 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: often used to be associated with death immortality, and then 362 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: eight balls is sometimes thought it a symbol of chance. 363 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: But there also should be noted there were eight victims 364 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: in the Roden homicides, and then he had tattoos of 365 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: aces and eights that are commonly considered the dead man's 366 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: hand and represent death and murder. Here again is Stephanie 367 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: and Jeff. So let's break this down a bit. And 368 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: it's a bit confusing because we were not able to 369 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: obtain the entire hearing courtroom footage and instead have to 370 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: fall back on reporting. And different sources have said different 371 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: things about when George Wagner got this tattoo. Some news 372 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: sources have said it was before the murders and some 373 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: have said after, So it's not totally clear to us, 374 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: which is true. What we do know is that at 375 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: some point George Wagner got a tattoo of a dead 376 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: man's hand. And for those of you who are not 377 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: familiar with poker, a dead man's hand is composed of 378 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: eights and aces. It's called the dead man's hand because 379 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: it's rumored to be the hand of a man named 380 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: wild Bill Hickcock who was holding it when he was 381 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: shot in the back by arrival and because of that 382 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: the hand is now cursed forever. Which again we don't 383 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: know the link. But if we're going to analyze all 384 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: of the behavior of the Wagner's pre and post murder, 385 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: it certainly seems like it's possible that George Wagner knows 386 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: this folklore story and decided to get a tattoo because 387 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: he himself shot the Rodents. Much has been made online 388 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: about their various tattoos and Facebook postings, and yes, you 389 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: can read into them for sure. For example, it's speculated 390 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: that the eight ball connects the eight members of the 391 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: Rodent family. That's possible, it also could be a big stretch. 392 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: George Wagner's trial is tentatively set to begin two months 393 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: from now, based on a recent hearing, the prosecution's case 394 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: is pushing forward with the fundamental argument that the murders 395 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: were a family affair, with George being complicit in the crimes. 396 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: They functioned as one unit at all times. Like I said, 397 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: they worked together, they homeschooled together. This is demonstrated by factors, 398 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: including that limited two that are residing together in a varying, 399 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: insular manner in their entire lives, even while married as adults. 400 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: It establishes this conspiracy, It establishes the enterprise. The all 401 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: of this information goes together to show the they were 402 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: again that group think, the group action. Not one of 403 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: them turned back from these crimes. They all knew what 404 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: was going to happen that night. They all had their 405 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: own roles. The possible depths of George's allegiance to his 406 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: family was on full display. On April twenty eight, twenty sixteen, 407 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: on a warm day in South Shore, Kentucky. We received 408 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: a picture from a listener that was used in the 409 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: Cincinnati Enquirer, and while we can't be a hundred percent cer, 410 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: it appears to have Billy, George and Jake Wagner in it. 411 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: It was taken at the funeral of Gary Rowden. Also, 412 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting, Jeff that we actually were 413 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: tipped off to this photograph by a listener. We hadn't 414 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: seen it before, And when you look at it, it's 415 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: pretty staggering because it's all three Wagner accused men, and 416 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: you can't really see their expressions too too closely, but 417 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: you can just see they're clearly speaking to somebody, and 418 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: it just makes you wonder what could they possibly be 419 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: talking about, what could possibly be going on in their heads. Collectively, 420 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: they also have to look the people in the eye, 421 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: and the family members in the eye of the people 422 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: that they allegedly murdered. You know, everyone is there grieving. 423 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: The whole town is there grieving, and you know full 424 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: well that you're at the exact same place that you 425 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: caused all of that pain for everyone. Yeah. What's so 426 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: striking to me that is, if indeed these are the 427 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: Wagner men attending Gary Roden's funeral, just how performative the 428 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: whole thing must have been. They went there as this 429 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: grieving family supporting their friends and sort of in laws. 430 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the Wagners and the Rodents were sort of 431 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: in laws to one another, and so to have to 432 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: go there and put on this show of a grieving 433 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: family is pretty hard to wrap your head around. Kind 434 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: of relevant here too. George Wagner's whole defense is that 435 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: he had nothing to do with this. Yet here we 436 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: see the family as they stand together at the funeral 437 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: of a man that was allegedly murdered by at least 438 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: some of them. So George was in the mix, and 439 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: we've heard some very checkered things about him, certainly how 440 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: he handled his own ex wife and the custody of 441 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: their child. But this season we also started to hear 442 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: things that are also quite different. That he was really 443 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: loving and kind, and that he could never pull this off. 444 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: And then you look at a picture like this, and 445 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: it does make you wonder. My sister always kept him 446 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: on a short lease. I mean she wouldn't let him 447 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: do anything, wouldn't let him get away from anybody, you know. 448 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: I mean that she just kept him on a short lease. 449 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: They had to stay there, had to take care of 450 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: the family. George wanted to leave. He wanted his own place, 451 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: but never got it. If you're raised your entire life 452 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: a certain way, it's hard to change. If you've had 453 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: something pounding like they was homeschooled all their life. I 454 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: think it was just the fact that he was, like 455 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: I said, had a pounding in his head that you 456 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: always have to take care of the family, always help 457 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: the family, whatever they do. You got to be a 458 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: part of the help or whatever. And I think it 459 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: just pounded in his head so much that he started 460 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: believing it because I know that he was raised up 461 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: to always take care of Jake always, no matter what, 462 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: he has to protect Jack. Don't matter if Jake does 463 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: wrong to somebody else and they want to pay back 464 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: on it, don't matter. You've got to take care of 465 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: your brother. And so what Angela is like this Hannah 466 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: a girl in his trouble, she's trying to take away 467 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: Jake's daughter. What's he gonna do protect his brother? Yeah, 468 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: that's the way he was raised up. After Jake confessed 469 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: it or whatever he did, he I just said, Hey, 470 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,239 Speaker 1: I ain't got metham for him anymore. I defended him 471 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: tooth and nail to everybody that had anything bad to 472 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: say about him. I defended because I had thought to 473 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: myself there said, there's no way my family could have 474 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: had anything doing this. I said, I've known George and Jake. 475 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: You know all their life. I said, there's no way 476 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: possible that they could have done this. I've always been 477 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: so curious to know more about life behind bars. For 478 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: the individual Wagner family members, we know that they've been 479 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: separated and haven't seen each other since their arrests. We've 480 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: been in contact with one of Angela Wagner's cell mates. 481 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: We know that George Wagner requested solitary confinement in the Bible, 482 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: and that he was originally in Ross County Jail but 483 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: is currently in the Montgomery County Jail in Ohio. And 484 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: that's for angel and Billy Wagner. They have both been 485 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: in the same jails since they were arrested. Billy is 486 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: in Hamilton, Ohio, and Angela Wagner is in Delaware County. 487 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: The youngest Wagner's son, Jake, is currently being held in 488 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: the Franklin County Jail in Columbus, Ohio. And all of 489 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: these jails aren't about one hundred and seventy five mile 490 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: radius of each other. In a little under three hours, 491 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: but for a family who will probably never see each 492 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: other again except for when they're testifying against each other 493 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: in court, those three hours probably feel like a lifetime 494 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: and stuff. You know a little bit more about Jake's 495 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: time in jail, right. Somebody who has access to Jake 496 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: Wagner on a daily basis came and saw us at 497 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: a work event and said that Jake is very busy 498 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: working on a manifesto. So whether that's something he's putting 499 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: together as a book or as a final statement, don't know. 500 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: You hear the term manifesto a lot when it comes 501 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: to shooters. Often people who go and shoot public places 502 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: write these manifestos prior to their murders. I hate to 503 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: say this out loud, but what a shake up that 504 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: would be to the remaining trials. Let's stop here for 505 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: another break. George's ties to his family will be put 506 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: to the test at this trial. In light of Jake's 507 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: admission of guilt and Angela's plea, the eldest son of 508 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: the Wagner clan is in a tight spot. Was George's 509 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: a legend involvement in the murders as a passive participant 510 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: or could he be a cold blooded killer? Here again, 511 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: Sammy Joe, the family for the Romans cannot have closure 512 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: until they know the truth. They'll never know the truth. 513 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: If we keep doing a pre trial trial, we're going 514 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: to move it, so on, so forth. The way I feel, 515 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: if you have all the evidence to say you have 516 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: move on, move on so people can have closure and 517 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: move on with their life. But again they're just going 518 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: to drag their feet and eventually the truth will come 519 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: out and then the people that's the way it's so 520 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: long to find the truth is no longer going to 521 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: be here, and then they never had closure in our life. 522 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: More on that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes 523 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: and Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy and Love. 524 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: New episodes there every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts. 525 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram 526 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and Massacre is produced 527 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong. 528 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston. 529 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre is a production of Kati Studios 530 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 531 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.