1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: I guess I should go ahead and directly ask you, like, 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: do you want kids? 3 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 2: No? 4 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: And how long have you known you don't want kids? 5 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: I would say I've always known, either subconsciously or consciously, 6 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: I don't want that. But it took me a very, very, 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 2: very long time to actually trust that, you know, to 8 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 2: allow myself to not want that. 9 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, what did like gaining that trust? Feel? 10 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: Like? 11 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: How did you start to trust it more and more? 12 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: It happened in the last few months. Oh my god, 13 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 2: I'm forty one, so I'm qualities for anyone who's still 14 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: figuring it out. 15 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: As women, people are always telling us who we should 16 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: be and what we should do, especially when it comes 17 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: to having kids. It can be disorienting trying to figure 18 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: out what you want and what society wants for you. Today, 19 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: we have a story about someone who gave up everything 20 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: to stay true to what she wants. I'm Hopewitdard and 21 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: welcome to Boys Over a space where we're learning and 22 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: on learning all the myths we're taught about love and relationships. Helena, 23 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you, thank you for 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: coming on. Helena Degrut is a Belgian audio producer and 25 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: storyteller who lives in Brooklyn. Last summer, she came into 26 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: our studio to tell us a story she was still 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: working through. It's a deeply personal one about love, marriage, 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: and whether or not to have kids. It's a huge 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: decision that I think about a lot as a twenty 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: nine year old woman considering her future, and I was 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: fascinated to hear about her experience. Today, we're talking about 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: your journey in this world, what it's like to think 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: about having kids or not want them. So I'm sure 34 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: you get a lot of questioning yes all the time, yes, 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you get that questioning in both 36 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: the States and in Belgium, what does that sound like 37 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: and feel like? 38 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: The question like what do they say, are you sure? Oh? Yeah, 39 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: you know, Well they don't even say are you sure? 40 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: They straight out say you're making a mistake. Yeah. And 41 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: the argument that they always had was this is the 42 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: biggest love that you'll ever experience, and I love love, 43 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: you know. So that was one of those things that 44 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: made me wonder, am I making a mistake? Like I 45 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: know I don't want this, but maybe that's wrong. You know. 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: There's a lot of other things that I'm wrong about what. 47 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: Do you say to people when they push back on you? 48 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: Do you just sort of go ha. 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: When it's someone close to me, like my closest friend, 50 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: the one that when I lived in bedium and I 51 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: was in my early twenties, I would have the most 52 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 2: conversations about this when she pushed back. It wasn't her 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: being normative or whatever. It wasn't like, here's this little 54 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: box that we've made because society ghosted in it and 55 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: I would close the lid. It wasn't like that. It 56 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: was just like, she loves me, She's curious about me, 57 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: She's interested in like why you know. She was also 58 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 2: trying to see like are there certain misconceptions that you 59 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: might Oh, well, this was before she had a kid, 60 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 2: so eiy of us knew she was just curious. 61 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I feel like maybe, but in like a 62 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: trusted female friendship, that pushback is necessary and so helpful. 63 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: It maybe gets you closer to your why. Yes, I 64 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: want to know if you have like a specific answer 65 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: to that, like what is your why for not having kids? 66 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: It took me such a long time because people always 67 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: ask right and sort of depending on the day, I 68 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: had a different answer but I think in the end 69 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: it really wasn't like reasons why, or it wasn't reasons 70 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: why not. It was like I could never find the desire, 71 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: and it seems weird to do something you don't have 72 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: any desire to do right. And finally enough I was 73 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: pregnant at some point what three years ago. 74 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: Helena did not keep the baby, but it wasn't as 75 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: simple a decision as you'd think for someone who's always 76 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: known they don't want kids. It was wrapped up in 77 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,239 Speaker 1: a long, heart wrenching story of her marriage, which ended 78 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: just a few years ago. 79 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: We met on Okay Cuban again. I'm dating myself sculately. 80 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: He had all these pictures of him in like a 81 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: wet suit next to a surfboard, and I was like, wow, 82 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: that is you don't have those in Bedgium, you know. 83 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 2: Like he was in Europe for a few months and 84 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: I was looking for something. I came out of a 85 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: bad relationship. I wanted something very casual. He was just 86 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: traveling through, so I thought perfect. So we met. We 87 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 2: had this great one night stand. It was really so wonderful, wonderful. 88 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: Tell me for all the reasons that one eyed stands 89 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: are wonderful. Plus it was very funny and ki okay, amazing, amazing, 90 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: and the contum broke hmmm, yeah, were you on no nothing, no, 91 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: and I freaked out. He was like, are you okay? 92 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: You know? 93 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: And I said yeah, I mean I'm you know, I'm fine, 94 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: Like we'll deal with it. So we hadn't met like 95 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: four hours before, and he said, just so you know, 96 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: I never sleep with anyone that I couldn't imagine having 97 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: a kid with. I don't. He was like sort of 98 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: the first American that I kind of knew. So I 99 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: was like, that is is that just how they are? 100 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, it's fine, Like I don't 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: want kids anyway, so you know, implication I would have 102 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: it or I think I said that, like, oh I 103 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: would have an abortion. I don't want kids everyway. So 104 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: he knew literally from the day we met, and then 105 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: the day before we got married, I repeated that. I 106 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: was like, you know this, right, don't marry me if 107 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: you want to have a kid. I was like thirty 108 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: two at the time. 109 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: What would he say to you when you would tell 110 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: him that, When you would be like, I don't want one, 111 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: don't marry me for this? How are those conversations. 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: I mean, when we were about to get married, he 113 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: was like, I totally understand I'd rather be with you 114 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: than have a child. And I took his word for it. 115 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: And I wish that he had taken my word for it, 116 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: you know, but he hadn't. I mean, And also, like 117 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: people around him I learned this much later, would tell 118 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: him like, oh, I didn't want to have a kid 119 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: at her age, she'll change her mind. You know. 120 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: Everyone was saying you would change her mind. Yeah. How 121 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: long had y'all dated before you got married? Sorry, oh no, it's. 122 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: A good question, which I've been sort of skirting over 123 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: because I don't not long. 124 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: How long? 125 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: So we knew we should have for four years, but 126 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: we weren't dating. He was in California, I was in Belgium, 127 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: right Like we had that one night stand. He spent 128 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: two more weeks in Belgium with me, during which time 129 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: we got to know each other in the biblical way. 130 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: I would say, but that was it, you know, we 131 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: didn't talk that much, you know. And also like he 132 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: worked in tech, I was this art girl, Like we 133 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: didn't everybody was that much tessed with you. 134 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: Okay, So really only had that two weeks. Yes, and 135 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: then what you moved to California on a whim? 136 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: No. Then I went and visited a friend in Seattle, Okay, 137 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: And I was like, huh, I'll be in the US. 138 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: This is the first time that I'll be that close 139 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: to him again. You know, I'll be on the correct coast. 140 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: You know, maybe we could hang out. So I emailed 141 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: him and again like I wasn't looking for anything, like no, 142 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: you know, it was just like a sort of more 143 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: extended one eyed stands totally. And then, uh, it kind 144 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: of got out of hand a little bit because at 145 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: the end of our two week trip together we got married. 146 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: No way, which I'm not that into marriage. It was 147 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: just like, if I want to move to the US, 148 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: we're gonna bring the pitah. 149 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: Okay, yay. 150 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: So there was no white dress, there was no nothing, 151 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: no party. 152 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: Wow. 153 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 154 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: Did you ever expect you would be like a person 155 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: who got married after two weeks? 156 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: No? I mean I thought I would never get married. 157 00:07:58,520 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 158 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: And I would I imagine myself in a relationship, you know, 159 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: I committed relationship all that, but no marriage. 160 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: I need to know what pushed you over the edge, Like, 161 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: what about those two weeks. Listen, my parents got married 162 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: after six months of each other, So I get it, 163 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: like in love, Yes, what pushed you over the edge though, 164 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: to be like I've got to do this? 165 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was this bookish, nerdy girl. Okay, So I 166 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: didn't really know pop music because I grew up in 167 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: this funny bubble with just classical music. Both my parents 168 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: were musicians. I read a lot of sad books about history. 169 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 2: I was sort of an introvert, you know, and I 170 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: was very much a city person. And he was this 171 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 2: like open to life, spontaneous optimistic. He had this like 172 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: American optimism, which was very new to me. 173 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: Would you call him a golden retriever. 174 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 2: Oh, that's exactly the type. 175 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: Yes, And so that was it, Like you were just 176 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: like obsessed with that energy and he was like bringing 177 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: you up for a while. Yes, And you were also 178 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: adding something to his life. That's it. 179 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: I just felt like with him, I will no longer 180 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: be scared of living, so I'm going to do this 181 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: very scary thing. Yeah, that was also it. You know, 182 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: like I can be a spontaneous person, I can be 183 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: someone who just caution into the wind. And it was 184 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: already part of the program that I hadn't sort of 185 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 2: started for myself. 186 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: How did you feel afterwards, like a year, after two 187 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: years after where were you like this was the right 188 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: choice or were you filled with regret? 189 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: I don't know. Well, so green card stuff takes a 190 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 2: very long time, like less than to more than a 191 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: year and a half, and during a time you can't 192 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: work right. So I had to just walk around feeling 193 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: useless in San Francisco because that's where he had a job, 194 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: where everyone makes either oodles of money or is homeless. 195 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: I mean I felt so dystopian, and so very soon 196 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: I started saying I can't live here, like I didn't 197 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: move across the ocean to be in this place. You know, 198 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: can be pleased move somewhere else? Yeah, And also like 199 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: to me, the idea was like you move to the 200 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: place where you want to move and then you look 201 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: for a job there. 202 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 203 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: That was not how he saw things, and he of 204 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: course felt the responsibility of taking care of both of us, 205 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: so he was like, no, my job is here, we 206 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: have to stay anyway. So after a year of that, 207 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, fine, then I'll leave you and 208 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: I go to La because I didn't have new York 209 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: money and La was I felt like not blowing up 210 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: my marriage yet It's like, it's still California if you 211 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: want to see me, but it's right there. 212 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 213 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: So that's when my green card finally came in. I 214 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: start working at this restaurant, and after six more months, 215 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: he finally decided, yeah, I want you back. So he 216 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: gave up his job and moved to La Okay, and 217 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: we lived there for two more years, and those years 218 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: were really beautiful, and then we moved to New York 219 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: and I was so happy that. I also thought our 220 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: relationship was great, you know, because he was so fun 221 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: to be around. He's still like one of the funniest 222 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: people that I know. 223 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: That will make you marry someone after two weeks, and 224 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: they can make you laugh, especially if you're depressed. 225 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: You're like, ah, this is amazing, Like sex is good 226 00:10:59,080 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: and make you laugh. 227 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, what else do you need? Well, you need 228 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: to be aligned, I guess. It turns out a few 229 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: more things. 230 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: We'd had over the course of our marriage two fights, 231 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: kid or no kid, California or New York. And we 232 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: had started out in California when I moved to the US, 233 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: and after three years, I was so done with the place. 234 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: I needed seasons. I needed to walk everywhere. I need 235 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: a public transportation like Also, I hadn't really found my 236 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: way back to radio. I worked in radio in Belgium, 237 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 2: so moved to New York. I found my way back 238 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: into radio like this. It was just miraculous. Everything lined 239 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 2: up perfectly. So I had the job I loved, I 240 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: had friends I loved, you know, I could walk everywhere. 241 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: I was so happy, and he was not. 242 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: Was it about New York that he couldn't handle? 243 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: My friend said it so beautifully. He's like, David is 244 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 2: really ecological. He's like a creature in an environment. You 245 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: change the environment, creature doesn't really do that well, you know, 246 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: and like some people are more movable or whatever. But 247 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: he needed to be in that California soil. I don't 248 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: know if he could live anywhere else in the world. 249 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 2: You know. 250 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: So you're loving life, yes, but he is maybe not 251 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: keeping up. Maybe he's not used to you having so 252 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: much success and independence. That was probably a new dynamic 253 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: to y'all's relationship. Do you think he was incredibly proud? 254 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm so proud to give you a silly example. 255 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: I'm an introvert. I do not love parties. So when 256 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: the first season of the Parashrieview podcast that I worked 257 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: on came out, there was this big party with these 258 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: like famous writers and there was all this hoopla and 259 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: it was in this big event space, and you know, 260 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: you had to wear a fancy dress and stuff, and 261 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: I was so terrified. I was like shaking going there. 262 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: And he was like, I'll come with you, and I'll 263 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 2: be with you as you find like people to chat with, 264 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: and when I see you're good, I'll just quietly walk away. 265 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: So he was a good part y'all were like he 266 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: was supportive, Yes, he was intuitive. During this period when 267 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: Helena was thriving in New York City is when she 268 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: accidentally got pregnant. Even though she was sure she never 269 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: wanted to have kids, the decision of whether or not 270 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: to keep the baby was a complicated one. 271 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 2: So I found out I was pregnant. At first I thought, 272 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna tell him. I'm just going to get 273 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: this taken care of so that I don't have to 274 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: hurt him immediately. 275 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: That makes me emotional, Like that sounds like such a 276 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: difficult place to be in, Like, because I so understand 277 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: that like wanting to protect. Yeah, okay, so you realize 278 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: you say, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna take care of it. 279 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 2: Because we had been fighting over this for seven years. 280 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: Seven years. 281 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And he knew from the day we met twelve years, 282 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: you know, before that day that I was pregnant, that 283 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: I didn't want kids. So it was not a surprise, 284 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: but he, you know, he was just hoping that I 285 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: changed my mind. So for seven years we fought, and 286 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: then I found out I was pregnant. I thought, I 287 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: know he wants this. It's cruel to have an abortion 288 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: tell him about it. So I thought, I'm just gonna 289 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: do it and not tell him about it. 290 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, which I understand that thought process completely. Yeah. Yeah. 291 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: And I thought that was a good idea for like 292 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: ten seconds, and then I thought that will be like 293 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: the wedge that for like the big secret that will 294 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: weigh on my heart and that will drive us apart. 295 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: I can't do that. Yeah, So I told him, and 296 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: we were sitting in the kitchen and he held a 297 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: hand in front of his face like oh, and he 298 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: was like saying all the right things, the modern man things, 299 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: you know, like your body or choice. He literally said that. 300 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: He literally used those words very cute. 301 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: How is he looking? Oh my god, what he was 302 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: saying and how he looked were they That's it. 303 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: He was a glow. I'd never seen him that happy, 304 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: you know, he was just beaming and I could even 305 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: see it like with you know, his hand in front 306 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: of his mouth, and I just I don't know, I 307 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: just like, I don't know. In that moment, I was 308 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: just like, fuck it, let's do it. Wow, because like, Okay, 309 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: I don't want this, but I also am in a 310 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: sort of appreciator of life being weird yep, you know, 311 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: and things happen and life takes you places and then 312 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: you go along with it. And I thought, this is 313 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 2: just one of those things, you know, like I don't 314 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: really believe in God, but it's like fate is bigger 315 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: than I am. And the same day that I found 316 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: out I was pregnant, his sister died. 317 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: Hmmm. 318 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: She had been ill for a very long time. Wow, 319 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: this was not a surprise, but you know, it's still 320 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: a shock. And it added this layer to everything, you know, 321 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: like one life ending and another starting. So we went 322 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: to California for like the funeral, and I was also 323 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: like the drugs that hormones. 324 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: Are are wild. 325 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: I was so. I mean, I know what everyone has 326 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: like a different experience with them, but for me, they 327 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: made me so calm, like chill. I am not a 328 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: chill person. You know, I'm a little high strung. 329 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: Okay, I wouldn't have guessed, I should say I wouldn't 330 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: have guessed. 331 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: So you tricked me that, Okay, Yeah, so. 332 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: Pregnancy had you sort of like chilling. 333 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: Yes, which was amazing, Like I've never been on antidepressants 334 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: as good, Like if I could just have that every 335 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: day of the air. 336 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: Yes, Okay. So you're at this funeral, you're weirdly probably glowing. Well. 337 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: I think it was mostly it felt like a really 338 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: strong bond between me and my husband. Of course, you know, 339 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: it really felt like there's all the sadness around us, 340 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: and underneath is this current of joy. And joy has 341 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: an element of sadness of course, right because joy is 342 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: like it has this edge where you know that it 343 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: won't last. You know that life is short and that's 344 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: why you feel joy now and you you're not going 345 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: to feel it forever. So there was that it just 346 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 2: put everything in such sharp relief. You know, it made 347 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 2: everything more powerful. 348 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: It's like every piece of life is like happening inside 349 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 1: and around you. Yes, what happens after that? 350 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we stayed in California for a little bit, 351 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: and we stayed with David's mom, who is not my 352 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: favorite person. 353 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 354 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: She's a very wealthy white lady who's never wanted for 355 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 2: anything and votes Republican. Okay, and I just, you know, 356 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: I just she was also very superficial. I'm not interested 357 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 2: in anyone else whatever. Okay. So we spent another week 358 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 2: in that place, and by the end of that week, 359 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, she would be the grandmother. You know. 360 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: We would have to come here and hang out with 361 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 2: her and see her and she would like put her 362 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 2: poison ideas into this kid's head and just like the 363 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: idea of being tied to her in a more substantial 364 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: way than I was now. You know, it just horrified me. 365 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: Your ex husband or husband at the time, did he 366 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: have an awareness of her energy? 367 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: I wish there was more, but he was like an 368 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: only child. He had a sister, but it was from 369 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,719 Speaker 2: a different mother. Yeah, he felt really responsible for her 370 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: because she was sort of what's the word, did see? 371 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: That's the word? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so you know, Okay, 372 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: that was that, but like he knew that we weren't 373 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: close and never would be, and that was fine for him, 374 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: but he was so protective of her and wouldn't allow critique. 375 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So there are a couple pieces to this puzzle 376 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: of y'all's relationship, because yeah, when you don't have like 377 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: allyship and your husband when it comes to their mother, 378 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: like I have seen so many relationships just like be 379 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: derailed completely because of that. Okay, so what step did 380 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: y'all take next? 381 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I was in California, I was like, okay, 382 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 2: let's not have this kid. Okay, So I told David like, 383 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, I can't do this. Also, the fun 384 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 2: hormones had kind of run their course and I was 385 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: getting really nauseous. That might have I mean that sounds 386 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: super superficial. 387 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: No, I feel like I mean, obviously I've never been pregnant, yeah, 388 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: but I feel like it is this sort of like 389 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: crazy rollercoaster. 390 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just feeling physically ill. Plus the mother. I 391 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 2: was just like, I do not want. 392 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: I can't do this. 393 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: So I booked an appointment at Plant Parenthood New York, 394 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 2: which was like the first one was two weeks out, 395 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: and yeah, I got on a plane and I just 396 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 2: told David, like, I'm I'm really sorry, but I have 397 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 2: to do this. 398 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: What did he say, Like, what did he do? 399 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 2: He he didn't get angry, He didn't try to convince me. 400 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 2: He was just really sad. And he held me and 401 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: I held him, and I felt guilty and also not 402 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: because like, this is not a thing that you should 403 00:19:51,040 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 2: do when you don't want to. I went home. I 404 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 2: went to New York and uh, when I was there, 405 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: it was summer, the weather was beautiful. I went for 406 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: a stroll in the neighborhood and there's this playground around 407 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: the corner from us, and you know, I was full 408 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: of kids and they're like shooting each other with water 409 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: guns and so that, you know, the parents are like 410 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: chatting on the benches or like dozing. It looked very cozy, 411 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: and it also looked very doable, like, oh, you can 412 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 2: raise a kid in a city that would be totally 413 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: different kids. 414 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: You know, the mother in law's in California. Exactly, this 415 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: is Brooklyn, Yes, exactly. It could be doable. 416 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 2: It could be doable. And like I lived near the 417 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 2: library and the museum and the park, and you know, 418 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: I love those little New York kids who are like 419 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 2: savvy about the subway, like they kind of know they know. 420 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: To see a New York kid, I love to be like, 421 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: you are just born different. 422 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so I could imagine it. I felt that, 423 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: you know, I could. I could do that. 424 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: So, in a last ditch effort to save her marriage, 425 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: Helena gave David an ultimatum moved to New York to 426 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: raise their kid there or go through with the abortion. 427 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: You say, if you move back to New York with me, 428 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: I will keep it, yes, And what does he say? 429 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: Well, so my appointment was two weeks out right, So 430 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 2: for two weeks, every night after his work day, we 431 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: would talk on the phone about this, and he was like, oh, okay, 432 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: so okay in New York, how many months a year 433 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: would be spending California, you know? And like I'm thinking 434 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: of like school vacations, I'm thinking of I also want 435 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: to go and see my family in Belgium, you know. 436 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 2: So I was like, I don't know, like two months maybe, 437 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: and he was like, I'm going to need at least 438 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: four four Where am I going to get four months again? 439 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: You know? And then he was like, Okay, well maybe 440 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: we can take a year and like live on a houseboat. 441 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: And what and what I'm wondering is like, what was 442 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: his motivation about wanting a kid so badly? What was 443 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: he because he's willing to like live in California for 444 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: four months and then go back and forth between New 445 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: York and get a house boat, Like what is that desperation? 446 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: But not that adjustment? You know? 447 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: I know, I know, I know. It's hard for me 448 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: to say I'm not in his mind. I don't know, 449 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: just as I can't say, what are the reasons that 450 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: I don't want to have a kid? I think he 451 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 2: and most people can't give the reason that they won't 452 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: to have a kid, you know. I think it's just 453 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: a feeling. But the stubbornness. Look, I don't know, because 454 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: like that was it for me too, right, It was like, wait, 455 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: you kept You've been telling me for years that there's 456 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: nothing in the world that you want more than having 457 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: a kid. Well it turns out there is living in California. 458 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: So the day before my appointment, I told him like, look, 459 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: if you still haven't told me that, you can imagine 460 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: living in Brooklyn. And I don't really want a kid, 461 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: like we shouldn't do this, you know. So I yeah, 462 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 2: I said, I'm gonna go there tomorrow and have the abortion. 463 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: How far along were you in your pregnancy? 464 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: Eight weeks? 465 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: Does he give you his blessing? He's like, okay, I 466 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: understand now, He's like no, no, he's not till the 467 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: very end. 468 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: Not fighting, but he's just very sad and he's not 469 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: saying no because he's not like that, you know, like 470 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: he's not aggressive, if anything, very mushy you know which 471 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: again I say that with tenderness in my heart. Yeah, 472 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: like the planet needs more mushy people. Yeah. So I 473 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 2: go to plant parenthood and what I didn't know then 474 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: because I put my phone away after I had the procedure, 475 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 2: I saw that he had like blown up my phone 476 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 2: and really wanted to change his mind. 477 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, how did you feel? Yeah? 478 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: To be honest, I ignored them like I was just 479 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 2: feeling like you, I don't know, like your feelings are 480 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: not really what I want to be thinking about right now. 481 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you move through that day? How did 482 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: you take care of yourself that day? Like? Did you 483 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: feel sadly? Like? How did you feel like regardless of him. 484 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: How did you feel like in your body on that day? 485 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 2: I mean, I hope you're ready for the hate that 486 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: you're going to get. But it was one of the 487 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: most beautiful days of my life. Okay, Plant parents Wood, 488 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: these people are miraculous. I went there, and you have 489 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: to go through this whole thing, like I don't know. 490 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: I saw maybe five or six different nurses sort of 491 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,239 Speaker 2: want to ask you the other day, and they were 492 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: asking me all kinds of very personal questions. You know, 493 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: what protection do you use, what kind of relationship are 494 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 2: you in? Do you want to have kids? Like all 495 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 2: these questions. So I was like, well a, I'm an 496 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 2: interviewer and you're asking me questions, so let me So 497 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 2: I asked them and they were wonderful, like so forthcoming, 498 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: and their answercially really different. You know. One of them 499 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I want kids, but I don't know 500 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 2: if this guy that I'm with is like the right guy. 501 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: Another woman was like, I have two kids, loved them 502 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: to death, but I had the first one when I 503 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: was fourteen, and I want to make sure that nobody 504 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 2: has to go through what I went through. H You know, 505 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: there was another woman who was like, I also don't 506 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: want kids, and they were just so caring and so 507 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: kind and firm. They had the strength, each and every one. 508 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: Of them, and there's like so much solidarity. Yes, in 509 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: that moment, that's what it felt like. Okay, I'm happy 510 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: to hear you had a good day. It was that 511 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: you felt confident in like stable and your decision. Yes, okay, 512 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: So how did you two move forward? You split apart? 513 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: Did it happen quickly? Slowly? 514 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: I think we weren't really good at half conversations in 515 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: a good way, Like he made me laugh so much. 516 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 2: We had this amazing banter. There was like a lot 517 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: of chemistry between us, but like really hard conversations in 518 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 2: a productive way. We didn't know how to do that. 519 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 2: He didn't talk about his feelings, so I didn't really 520 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 2: probe too much, and especially after that abortion, I was like, 521 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 2: I'm kind of sick of this. Yeah, I didn't want 522 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 2: to hear his feelings, and maybe I felt some guilt, 523 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 2: you know, like I kind of didn't want to hear 524 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 2: that he was sad and he didn't offer. So it 525 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 2: was maybe like nine more months or something. 526 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: Hello, yes, I know, let's just say eight. Okay, let's 527 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: not be all symbolic about this. 528 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 2: But yeah, he sort of shrunk. He like was losing 529 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 2: weight a lot. 530 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: Wow. 531 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was just he'd lost sort of the 532 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: lust for life. He really had this huge lust for 533 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: life that was like what I was attracted to. Yeah, 534 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 2: and that was just like diminishing in the minute. And 535 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: it was really awful to see. And I, again, I'm 536 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: not proud of this, but I just sort of ignored 537 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 2: it because I knew it was my fault. 538 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: It's not your fault. 539 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: Well, hello, Like he. 540 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: Could have just moved to fucking Brooklyn, Like it's what 541 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: you said. It's like he didn't want to make any 542 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: compromise for you, and you were making one of the 543 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: biggest compromises of your life that would impact you for 544 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: the rest of your life for him. So anyways, what 545 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: was the breaking point? Like, how did it come to 546 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: a head? 547 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: So we went for a walk in the Botanic Garden 548 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: and ahead of us was this couple and the dad 549 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 2: had a baby in his arms and was sort of 550 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: shaking the baby, I guess to burpen, you know. And 551 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 2: the baby was wearing the cutest little black and white 552 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 2: stripe thing. You know, it was so adorable and the 553 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 2: dad was like, you know, singing songs to a baby, 554 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: and so they were like wow, looking in front of us. 555 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 2: Anither of us said anything, but I could feel it. 556 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 2: I could feel this tension, you know. And anyway, we 557 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 2: went about our day. We didn't talk about this, and 558 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: we came home that night and he started talking about it. 559 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 2: He said, you know, this morning in the botanic garden, 560 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: and I knew exactly what he was talking about. He 561 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: didn't even have to like complete the sentence. I knew 562 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: that he meant that image. And he said, this is 563 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: really something I have to try. I have to go 564 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: do that. Yeah. 565 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: Wow. 566 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 2: So he left the next morning. 567 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: Oh my god, how did that feel? 568 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: Oh awful? 569 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: Ah? 570 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I could not stop crying. I was also like 571 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: so busy with work. I had like a huge project 572 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: that I had to finish, and thank god actually because 573 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: I had something to focus on. Yeah, but the moment 574 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: I would walk away from my computer, I would just 575 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: start crying again. 576 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: The initial shock of a breakup is like. 577 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I also felt this verse, you know, like I 578 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: had moved to this country for him. He had been 579 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 2: with me in this country. He was my family. I 580 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: have no family, and I just felt like and so 581 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: much what am I doing here? 582 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: How long had y'all been together? Eight years? Eight years? 583 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: So yeah, eight years from the time we got married. 584 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: What are like your takeaways? Where has it left you now? 585 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: I think David was the person I needed when I 586 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 2: met him, you know, And he taught me so much 587 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: about optimism and about living you know, sort of heart 588 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: forward and doing things spontaneously and sort of saying yes 589 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: and figuring out the consequences later. And I'm so happy 590 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: that he taught me that. And he also like he 591 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,479 Speaker 2: really opened my eyes to sort of the beauty that 592 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: is in the actual physical world, you know, not just 593 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: in books, and like, I'm so good now at like 594 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: just walking down the street and just seeing like beautiful 595 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: flower or like a funny graffiti on the wall and 596 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 2: just being like elated, you know. And he really taught 597 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: me that. And I think the last few years have 598 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: really been a process of Okay, I know who I'm not. 599 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 2: I'm not a person who is going to have kids. 600 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: I want to know who I am then, and so 601 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 2: I've been trying to be really honest with like what 602 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: do I need, what do I want? Desire has become 603 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: like a really big thing. 604 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: Do you feel like a sense of freedom. 605 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm learning freedom, you know, like I've 606 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: just left the training wheels behind and I'm very wobbly 607 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 2: on my bike. Now. That is how I am with freedom, 608 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: Like it's an effort each time to do it. 609 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: Wow. But something I'm thinking about was you said, like really, 610 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: not until the last couple of months had you accepted 611 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 1: fully that you didn't want kids. Do you remember the moment? 612 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: What was like the Eureka moment? 613 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, So David left and one of the first things 614 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: I thought was I paid a heavy price for this 615 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: desire not to have a kid. Why was this so 616 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 2: important for me that I would choose that over this 617 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: man I loved. So I started recording everything, you know, 618 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 2: all my conversations with friends, just me talking like journaling basically, 619 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: but out loud, and I started working on this narrative 620 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 2: show about it. And one of the things that I 621 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: did for this show, I've been talking to this guy 622 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: that I met a few years ago, actually did the 623 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: first few months that I was in New York, I 624 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 2: met this guy who said that he had a kid 625 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 2: and regretted it. And so when I started recording this show, 626 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: I was like, can I talk to you? And so 627 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: we've been talking every few months ever since. So it's 628 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: been like two years or so. And that new person 629 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: really threw me because he was a city. He lives 630 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: in New York, right around the corner for me. He's 631 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: also an audio person. We read each other story like 632 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 2: he loves literature, you know, like it's just we have 633 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: all this stuff that we like to do together. And 634 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: I grew up in a household of musicians. He has 635 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 2: like a ton of musical instruments. It's constantly like playing 636 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 2: around with stuff. And I could just imagine how beautiful 637 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: that would be to bring a kid into you know, 638 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: like he we make such a world together that I 639 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: was like, what a nice Like the world out there is, 640 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: you know, pretty fucked up, but this little world would 641 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: be beautiful, you know, And I could for the first time, 642 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 2: I could like, oh, that's why people want to have kids, 643 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: you know, you love someone so much and you can 644 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: just see it, like we could create some someone beautiful together. 645 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: And I got really really confused. I was already working 646 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: on my show, right my show about my decision not 647 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: to have my whole identity. 648 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: Was sometimes well by. 649 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: But then I talked to him and he I asked him, 650 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: actually straight up in one of our conversations, should I 651 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: have a kid or not? And because he regretted it, 652 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: I thought that he was going to say it all, 653 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: do it it sucks, you know. He did not say that. 654 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: He asked me a lot of questions and then it's 655 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: he was like, you know, either you're gonna have a 656 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: kid and wonder what it's like to not have a kid, 657 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 2: or you're gonna have no kid and wonders like that 658 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: is how life is. 659 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: Right. 660 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: There is no such thing as the right or wrong decision. 661 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: And it was so liberating because I kept feeling these 662 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 2: little like pinpricks of doubt, you know, like, but what 663 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: does it mean that with this new person, I understand 664 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 2: the desire. Does it mean that I should have a kid? 665 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 2: Does it mean And talking to him, I was like, Oh, 666 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that. It actually means make a decision 667 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: which I wanted is and I'm gonna go with no 668 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: because that's the most consistent thing that I've wanted, you know, 669 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 2: And will it ever be the complete right decision? No, 670 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: because that's not how anything works. You know, You'll always wonder, 671 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: There always be moments when you get sad and I realized, like, oh, 672 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: all this is is grief. That's okay. You know, you 673 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: can live with grief. I thought that this little hint 674 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 2: of like feeling meant that I was doing the wrong thing, 675 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: But now I'm like, no, that little hint of feeling 676 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: is what it feels. 677 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: To be alive. Right to women who hear your story 678 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: and who relate to you and who don't want kids, 679 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: or maybe who do want kids, or who are going 680 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: through a moment of doubt, do you have just like 681 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: one piece of advice for anyone listening to your story. 682 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I think my only piece of advice is 683 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 2: to not listen to anyone's advice. You know, people don't 684 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 2: know you. They think they do, but they don't. You 685 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: know you. You might think you don't, but you do, 686 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: And it's okay. It's okay. Whatever you do, it's okay, 687 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 2: You're okay. 688 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: Since we last spoke, Helena finished her narrative project about 689 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: her decision not to have children. It's called Creation Myth 690 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: and it's an eight part series you can listen to 691 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: on the podcast personally, So subscribe to Personally wherever you 692 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Thank you so much to Helena 693 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: for sharing this story with us. I'm going to be 694 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: thinking about it for a while. Thanks everyone for listening, 695 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: and I'll talk to y'all next week. Boy Sover is 696 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. Our 697 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising 698 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: producer is Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau. 699 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: Engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar. 700 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and 701 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 1: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boy Sober 702 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get 703 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.