1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Today's episode of What Future with Joshua Topolski is a 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: re release. It's a really interesting listen. We will be 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: back next week with an all new episode. 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm 5 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 2: your host, Joshua Topolski, and We've got a great episode 6 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: today because I have been wanting to talk to our 7 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: guests for a long time, and in fact, the guest 8 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: of today's show I had on my old podcast a long, 9 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 2: long time ago, and it was one of the greatest 10 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: conversations I've ever had in my entire life. And frankly, 11 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: I've spent a lot of years in therapy dealing with 12 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: the fact that not every conversation could be as good 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: as that one. Of course, talking about my conversation with 14 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: Bartunde Thurston, who is a podcaster and a writer and 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: a TV personality, I think he's done a Ted talk. 16 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: I believe he is maybe an astronaut. He's doing many things, 17 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 2: and he has a fascinating guy he Currently he's writing 18 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: for Puck News, which you may have heard of, is 19 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: one of my favorite new websites, and he's been writing 20 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 2: about social media and technology and one of the things 21 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: that he talks about a lot, and I know thinks 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: about a lot is sort of the way we get 23 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: information and what's in our diet, how we get the 24 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: news of the day, how we process it, how we 25 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 2: think about it, how generationally we're thinking about these things, 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: And that to me is a fascinating topic because I 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: feel like we have this information crisis in the world 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: right now. I mean, I really believe the root of 29 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: most of our problems in society. Okay, that's pretty broad, 30 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: but I think the one of the main causes of 31 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: the pain that we experience in modern life is the 32 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: fact that it's become so impossible to get and understand information. 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: There is so much noise, so much misinformation, so much 34 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 2: that is wrong that you have access to. Right when 35 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: we thought of the Internet, you know, me and the 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: think tank that created the Internet that I worked on, 37 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: when we envisioned the Internet, or when we thought about 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: it in its earliest days, this idea that it could 39 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: give you access to all the world's knowledge, that you 40 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 2: could have every book and every library, every encyclopedia, every 41 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: piece of information available, felt like this superpower that we 42 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: would all have, that this is like the beginning of 43 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: a new era. Of understanding and education and information and 44 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: humanity coming together and people solving their problems, and we're 45 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: all going to communicate and share and explore together in 46 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: cyber space. And look at all this access that we 47 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: now have to edify ourselves to become smarter, to become 48 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: better citizens of the world. 49 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 3: And what nobody. 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 2: Seemed to think of, and myself included, is that the 51 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: inverse of all of the world's information is true, is 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 2: that all of the world's disinformation can also exist there. 53 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: And in fact, it turns out disinformation and misinformation is 54 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 2: louder and faster and sexier and more interesting and more 55 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: exciting than the real stuff, And it's easier to share, 56 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 2: and it's easier to scan people with, and it's easier 57 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: to convince people of For whatever reason, we are drawn 58 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: as human beings to the more dramatic stories, and the 59 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: more dramatic stories are often the lies. And so the 60 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: Internet has become as much as it is a tool 61 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: for humanity to explore the world's knowledge and to explore 62 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: all of the fascinating aspects of humanity itself, it's also 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: become this massive and horrible tool for disrupting in the 64 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: worst way possible with the most negative connotations, possible, disrupting 65 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: how our brains work and disrupting what we know and 66 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 2: what we believe is true and what we agree on 67 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 2: is scientific, and whether or not the Earth is flat, Like, 68 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: these are now things that are up for debate in 69 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: a lot of circles. And I say, in a lot 70 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 2: of circles. On the internet, it feels like a lot 71 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: of circles, but in reality, maybe it's only a few circles. 72 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: But those circles are growing, and the pools inside the 73 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: circles are deepening, and we're being sucked down to the 74 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: bottom of the sea. And now I'm imagining like a 75 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: cylinder filled with water and we're all in it. 76 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 3: At any rate. This is my roundabout way of saying. 77 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: I thought, who better to talk about the Internet and 78 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: information and the future of humanity as we know it. 79 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: Who better to have a conversation with about those topics 80 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: than Baritunde Thurston. And he agreed to come on the show. 81 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: He's here with us right now. Okay, I'm very happier here. 82 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 83 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: I had you on my show in twenty fifteen, Yeah, 84 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 2: which is like kind of amazing. I went back and 85 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: listened to a little bit of it. We were both drinking. 86 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: First off, you were having a gigantic glass of whiskey 87 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: and I was having vodka. We got into a long 88 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: conversation about the iguanas whole foods. Which do you don't 89 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: live in New York anymore? 90 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: Do you? You live in LA? 91 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 4: I live in LA. I left New York foty years ago. 92 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: Now that's smart, that's so smart. I'm jealous of you, 93 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: all right, So let's talk about you for a second. Now, Yeah, 94 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously we now know where you're located. That's important. 95 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: So I've been reading you a lot because you're writing 96 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 2: for Puck Puck News. 97 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 3: Is that what we call it. 98 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 4: We call it puck. We called the website is puck 99 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 4: dot news, but the name is just Puck. 100 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: I like Puck a lot. I gotta tell you, I'm 101 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 2: a big fan. I'm a subscriber. I have been reading 102 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: and following along. But your stuff is really interesting lately, 103 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: especially because you're always interesting. But you've been talking a 104 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: lot about social media. I mean, you just wrote a 105 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 2: thing about TikTok that I thought was super interesting. You've 106 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: been obviously talking about Elon Musk and the Twitter situation. 107 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 3: You made a passing comment. 108 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: Obviously that's been a topic of great interest to me 109 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 2: because because it's your fault, because I personally am responsible 110 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: for Elon Musk's behavior. 111 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 4: You laid the path I did. 112 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 3: Why did I do that? 113 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: Why did I Why did they make him act in 114 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 2: that way? But you made this kind of pass you 115 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: mentioned You're like, yeah, Twitter as we know it is 116 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: basically dead or something like that. 117 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: I'm paraphrasing. Do you really believe that? Is it over? 118 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 4: I think so. What I added in that comment was 119 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 4: that you know, I was referring to Twitter in the 120 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 4: past tense because I think of Twitter, it is code, 121 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 4: but it is also culture, and it is the unique 122 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 4: combination of code and culture that created the environment that 123 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 4: we knew as Twitter. Same goes for cities like New 124 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 4: York is a different place than when I lived there 125 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 4: four years ago, I think, especially if a place goes 126 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 4: through a major tragedy, it is substantively different. You know, 127 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 4: after if you lived in New York before nine to 128 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 4: eleven and never lived there after, you don't really know 129 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 4: New York anymore. Like the character of the place has shifted, 130 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 4: even though it's still in New York. It's kind of 131 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 4: an existential question of a or metaphysical one too. If 132 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 4: like all my cells have changed, am I still me? 133 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 4: But in this case, I think what Elon has done 134 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 4: at Twitter is so violently abrupt in terms of driving 135 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 4: out staff and also users of a certain kind, that 136 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 4: he has shifted the nature and culture of the place. 137 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 4: He has signaled really obviously and sort of boneheadedly what 138 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 4: type of speech he wants to be free, just his 139 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 4: right wing buddies, and what type he will police, which 140 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 4: is anything critical of him or any jokes he doesn't understand. 141 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 4: Twitter's culture is now Elon's limitations. And he's just scaled himself, right, 142 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 4: He's like implemented his predilections and personality into the code, right, 143 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 4: And and he has the right to do that. That's 144 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 4: what billions of dollars and debt and other people's money 145 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 4: can help you do. But it is not the Twitter 146 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 4: that we commonly refer to anymore because a lot of 147 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 4: the people who made that place what it was aren't 148 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 4: spending time there. Yeah, and I include myself in that. 149 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 4: And I'm late to the exodus by some measures, even 150 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 4: though I've substantively like downgraded my time there years ago, 151 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 4: before Elon even came on the scene. He just accelerated 152 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 4: a path outward and made it easier for me to 153 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 4: spend time elsewhere. 154 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: I mean that point is like I get it so 155 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 2: well because I feel the same way like this. Yeah, 156 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 2: you know, there definitely was a point, you know, I 157 00:08:58,240 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: don't know when I was just like now I'm not 158 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 2: can't do this anymore, but it has to end, right 159 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 2: like he Can's not financially sustainable in its current state, 160 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: don't you know? 161 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 4: It isn't. And I think there's cultural death, there's technological 162 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 4: or kind of operational death, and there's financial death, and 163 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 4: all of these are on the table, and I think 164 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: they probably move in that order. Certainly, the cultural one, 165 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 4: I think has already very much begun. When you start 166 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 4: like banning journalists who criticize you as if you were 167 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 4: Saudi Arabia itself. It's one thing to take their money. 168 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 4: It's another to adopt their stance on you know, freedom 169 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 4: of expression and free press in your public square business 170 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 4: with no sense of irony about it, like legit just 171 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 4: doing that. So when people like me and you and others, 172 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 4: a lot of the black Twitter folk, even some of 173 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 4: the crypto kids, Like there's a whole community that's just like, 174 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 4: I'm not here for this. It's exhausting. The town square 175 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 4: shouldn't be the subject of discussion of the town square, right, 176 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 4: But I don't. 177 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: Gather the town's creditly be like, Wow, I look at this. 178 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: I love the what they've with the stones here or whatever. 179 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, like they gather to talk about other stuff right 180 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 4: about like the janitor, you know. 181 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks like one of those things like when 182 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: the story is just about right and it's like it's 183 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 2: like when you've made it about you or whatever. 184 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're a point about the money, you know. 185 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 4: My colleague at Puck, William Cohen, has written much more 186 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 4: incisively on this angle because he's a former banker and 187 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 4: understand some of the Wall streetness of how Elon put 188 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 4: this deal together and what's required and when payments are due, 189 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: and he's gonna owe some significant amount of money on 190 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 4: the debt he took out to pay for this thing. 191 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 4: He can afford it, right, But with every drop in 192 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 4: the share price at Tesla, it's going to sting a 193 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 4: little more. With every increase in the FED rate, it's 194 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 4: gonna sting a little more. Yeah, and with every dollar 195 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 4: of revenue that brands aren't spending in his toxic environment 196 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 4: because they don't want to be adjacent to a white 197 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 4: supremacy and Nazis and fake news, it's going to sting 198 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 4: a little more. And at some point he's gonna have 199 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 4: to do something even more radical than what he's already 200 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 4: done just to keep the lights on, which he had 201 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 4: decided so far to handle by not paying his rent, right, 202 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 4: which is so very trumpy of another brilliant, genius billionaire 203 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 4: over it. 204 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: Like not paying your rent is one of those things 205 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: where like if you're a regular human being, it's such 206 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 2: a great demonstration of like the difference in class in 207 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 2: like what the billionaire class or the very rich or 208 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: capable of that we are not. And by the way, 209 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: the rent on Twitter spaces is not like thirty eight 210 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 2: hundred dollars a month or something. I mean, it's not 211 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: like a one bedroom apartment in like Bushwick or something. 212 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: It's like I don't even know what the rent would be. 213 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: It's probably way more than that right now. 214 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 4: It's ad zeros. 215 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, but like he's just like I'm not going to 216 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: pay the rent, and everybody's like, well, Okay, I guess, 217 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: like what do we do. We can't do anything to 218 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: Elon Musk or like to the company, but like if 219 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 2: you don't pay your rent, or if I don't pay 220 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like if a normal person, 221 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: And maybe we're not perfectly normal, but no, I'm. 222 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 4: Definitely above normal at this point. 223 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 2: But in general, a person who does not pay their 224 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 2: rent the air consequences gonna get fucking victed, Like we're 225 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 2: gonna take you to court, and like none of that 226 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 2: should happens. And it's like to me, like, what's more 227 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: going than like him going, I'm not gonna pay it 228 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: is that nobody does anything. 229 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: It's like everybody sits there. 230 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 4: Look, we're raised, Josh in this world where when someone 231 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 4: like Elon, of his gender, of his race, of his 232 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 4: inherited wealth decides to transgress, we tend to celebrate it 233 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 4: right until it's too late, you know. 234 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 3: White. 235 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, he I mean, he's like just like Heisenberg was 236 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 4: way cooler than this guy. 237 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: His drugs aren't as good, but his blue math is 238 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: like I don't know, fucking the blue teck mark. 239 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, but he can afford to call our bluff as 240 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 4: a society. He can afford to wade us out. And 241 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 4: us I don't mean like me and you specifically, but 242 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 4: just society at large. You know, people who need money 243 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 4: to live, money that they get pay on a weekly, buy, weekly, 244 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 4: or monthly basis. He can take the hit longer because 245 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 4: he's got a big old cushion to fall back on, 246 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 4: and so he can just like he knows he'll get 247 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: sued for how he treated the employees when he first 248 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 4: came in. And he's just gonna see, like will they 249 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 4: go through their trouble of hiring lawyers or will it 250 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 4: burn so much of their time because they can't afford 251 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 4: to spend it on that, and I can just weep 252 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 4: them out. It's the Trump move, you know. It's like 253 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 4: I'm gonna break this law. Let's see if the government 254 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 4: bothers to prosecute I'm going to not pay these vendors. 255 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 4: Let's see if they bother to send lawyers after me, 256 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 4: or will I just settle for pennies on the dollar 257 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 4: and it's a deal. I'm won the deal of the century. 258 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 4: But you're also just it's also criminality, that's another word 259 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 4: for it, right, and dishonor you know, at best, the 260 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 4: most charitable interpretation is he's a meanie and he's not honorable. 261 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: The thing that I find so and I've talked about 262 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: this a bunch, but like you know, I don't want 263 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 2: to belabor it, and I'm sure you're all talked out 264 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: over Twitter, but like, what's so incredible to me is 265 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: I never was like, Elon Musk is clearly the smartest 266 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: man in the world or anything. But there was a 267 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: period where I was like, this guy's interesting. Yes, way 268 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: before he was whatever his Twitter persona was, there was 269 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: a period of years where Elon Musk was like you 270 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: didn't hear that much about him on a personal level, 271 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: but you heard a lot about the things he was doing, 272 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: and the things he was doing were really fucking interesting 273 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: and really seemed to be working right, Like once he 274 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: was like involved in Tesla, the SpaceX stuff, some of 275 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: his like big ideas that he would talk about, but 276 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: you never really eadn't go like way into detail on it. 277 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: It's so strange to me to see the evolution or 278 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: de evolution of his like character, of his personality like 279 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: to whoever he plays in public. Yeah, it's like he's 280 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: hearing these cheers from whoever wherever it is. 281 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 4: A different section of the stands. He's playing to that 282 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 4: part of the room. Yes, so I share a big 283 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 4: part of that, Josh. And I think I went from 284 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 4: we're talking a decade ago, you know, not really knowing 285 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 4: anything about this guy, heard about Tesla a little bit. 286 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 4: Oh the roadster looks kind of cool. I'll never have 287 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 4: one of those anyway, to twenty eighteen, maybe twenty seventeen, 288 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 4: getting serious about wanting to get a car in New 289 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 4: York because my wife came from California. She's like, I 290 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 4: can't do this subway thing all the time because the 291 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 4: grocery stores is how do you live? Like this isn't 292 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 4: a life we call this. I agree with her, and 293 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 4: I was like, cool, cool, cool, but we're not getting 294 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 4: a combustion engine car, Like that's my line. Her her 295 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 4: line was I need car. Mine line was not gas car. 296 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 4: And there was one option, yeah, you know, which was 297 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 4: Tesla Model three. Okay, so I start paying more attention. 298 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 4: I'm building spreadsheets to analyze what the best car, and 299 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 4: the Nero is coming out but it's not available yet 300 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 4: from Kia and Hyundai. And I'm also keen on the 301 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 4: Space thing, and I'm like starting to look into what's 302 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 4: up with SpaceX, and the YouTube algorithm is great for me. 303 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 4: I have never really been fed Nazis and sort of disinformation. 304 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 4: I've been fed like how to make great cocktails, how 305 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 4: to composts, you know, and like what electric cars should 306 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 4: you buy? Like my YouTube is dope? And YouTube got 307 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: a whiff that I was interested in space again because 308 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 4: I was a space kid, and so I watched his 309 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 4: announcements around the Mars launcher and the reusable rockets, and 310 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 4: I just admired his systematic thought. He has like thought 311 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 4: through all these parts, and he was laying it out 312 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 4: very logically, very engineering oriented, and over promising stuff that 313 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 4: would eventually happen definitely wouldn't happen when he said it 314 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: would definitely. That's the one thing you know is true 315 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 4: is that he's not telling the truth about the ready date. 316 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 4: But beyond that, added up multiplanetary species climate change evis Yes, 317 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 4: sign me up. So came to Cali, got the Tesla. 318 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 4: At least the three real excited yeah, had friends that 319 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 4: SpaceX almost visited. SpaceX never made it over to visit there, 320 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 4: but just at admiration for these two pieces of the puzzle. 321 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 4: Boring company I don't know, flamethrowers. That's kind of weird. 322 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 4: That's exactly when it started to go the moment. That's 323 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 4: a moment. 324 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like he was getting high on his 325 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: own supply, Like that's the fucking reality. People were like, 326 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: you're so cool on He's like, yeah, I'll put a 327 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: flamethrower out. 328 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 3: And that was it. 329 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 4: To explain part of the transition, You explain what happens 330 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 4: to a lot of young men who get radicalized by 331 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 4: the Internet. In this case young maybe a political but 332 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 4: ultimately hyper conservative, largely white men who fall into the 333 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 4: rabbit holes of you know the thing about feminism, right, 334 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 4: they want to cut your balls off. Wait, is that's 335 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 4: not going to be a man anymore? 336 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 3: God, is there a video? 337 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 4: You know the thing about black people, They want to 338 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 4: take everything you ever worded hard for and rub it 339 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 4: in your face. You know the thing about indigenous people, 340 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 4: you know, to think about climate shait and it just 341 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 4: becomes this like low appeal to people's deep insecurities. And 342 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 4: that was modeled for him by the former president very well, 343 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 4: very effectively, by Fox News and by people in an 344 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 4: atmosphere online where he spent a lot of time you 345 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 4: know he loves memes. I mean, so much of this 346 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 4: stuff was born out of meme culture with pet bat 347 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 4: of Frog and gamer Gate, you know, that was all 348 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,719 Speaker 4: meme warfare early on. And he's he's a Reddit kind 349 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 4: of guy. You know, he's a he's a hashtag kind 350 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 4: of dude. And is he a four chain kind of guy. 351 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 4: He's a four chang crely and he you know this 352 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 4: if he plays with with Q. You know my pronouns 353 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 4: are was it prosecute fauci? I mean, that's that's some 354 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 4: cute stuff, right, but it's actually very explicable if you've 355 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 4: as you have spent time on the part of the Internet. 356 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 4: That's not just about cloud services and profits going up 357 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 4: into the right, but that's about emotion and culture and 358 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 4: disaffected young men, which are usually the source of most 359 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 4: societal collapses. Is like young men with too much time 360 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 4: on their hands. I guess I agree, and and not 361 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 4: productively put to use. And Elon, who as CEO of 362 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 4: four companies, should have had plenty to. 363 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 3: Do, well, that's my thing. 364 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: This is as you're saying this, all I can think is, 365 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: and I've said this so many times, but like if 366 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: I were the world's richest man. Do you know what 367 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: I would not do is I would not fucking tweet. 368 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: I would not go on Twitter. I would not need 369 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: to go on. 370 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 4: Like he's that you and him are different. 371 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 2: I feel like there's so many things to do in 372 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 2: the world that you could be doing that isn't tweeting. 373 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: And I think you probably identify with this. We're very 374 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: online people and we've probably spent like a pretty good 375 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 2: amount of our career like building our whoever we are, 376 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: like our persona. Like it's like on Twitter, on Instagram 377 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: or whatever, like we're communicating, but we're also and I'm 378 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 2: not saying I did this consciously, but it becomes a 379 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: thing where you're like that's your platform, Like that's where 380 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: you talk to people. That's like where you need to 381 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 2: kind of be doing what you're doing, Like you do 382 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 2: it there, right, h But like to build an electric car, 383 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: you don't do it on Twitter, Like you don't need 384 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: to do it on Twitter. Like to go to space, 385 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: you don't do that on Twitter. It's not part of 386 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 2: the like doesn't need to be part of his birth. 387 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: Like Tim Cook doesn't fucking tweet, you know, Tim cooks 388 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 2: like has he tells like his fourth assistant to get 389 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: his social media person to tend to tweet about the 390 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 2: new watch or whatever. 391 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 4: Tim Cook has something that Elon's missing. He's got a 392 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 4: whole sense of himself. Yeah, he has self affirmation that 393 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 4: doesn't require thousands of strangers every day to affirm him instead. Right, 394 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 4: he's got self love in a way that is satisfied 395 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 4: and quiet moments as opposed to having to make noise 396 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 4: to prove that he still exists. Yeah, and so it's 397 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 4: not that mysterious. You know, we're not inside of Elon specifically, 398 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 4: but no, I know what it feels like to like 399 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 4: picture or it didn't happen right like I And I'm 400 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 4: I think objectively more balanced, you know than Elon. Even 401 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 4: though I have way less money, I have more of 402 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 4: what I need. 403 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 3: Ye, what's right, You're not the world here. You are 404 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 3: acting normal, so unusual. 405 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 4: We get to watch somebody, you know, with an unmet 406 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 4: need act out in public. And we've seen it with Kanye, 407 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 4: and we've seen it with Trump, and we've seen it 408 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 4: with a lot of folks, with all kinds of people 409 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 4: thrust into public life who don't have their own private 410 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 4: lives sorted out, and so in that sense. There's no mystery, 411 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 4: it's not intriguing, it's not novel. It's just so much 412 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 4: more in our face because he forces us to watch. 413 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 4: Because when he. 414 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: Literally bought the thing, yeah that we all were communicating, 415 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: like he bought like the phone company, you know, he 416 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 2: was like, no, I own the lines now, So you're 417 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 2: gonna hear me a lot. I'm just gonna kind of 418 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: like here, you guys, what's going on? Like you're like, dude, 419 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 2: I didn't. You're not in this call. He's just popping up. 420 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 2: But okay, But it's interesting you mentioned Kanye, and obviously 421 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 2: Trump like Kanye is very I mean, I assume he's 422 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: still pretty rich, but has been at times very rich 423 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: and very powerful, very much like in the public eye 424 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: and very much in control of like the public sort 425 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: of conversation, not where Elon is, like, he's not the 426 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: world's richest man. And yet they both have access to 427 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 2: presumably in Trump as well, to kind of any information 428 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: they want or need. And yet they all all from 429 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: very different backgrounds, all from very different doing very different things, 430 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 2: seem to gravitate towards him publicly, gravitate towards this weird 431 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 2: conspiratorial thinking that I don't know. I don't want to 432 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 2: give anybody too much credit. I think that all of 433 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 2: them incline voting Trump, I hate to say it, are 434 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 2: intelligent in some way. 435 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it's not a stretch, that's yes, easy. 436 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: But like the shit they gravitate towards is kind of 437 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 2: the lowest, like the bottom of the barrel, like conspiracy shit. 438 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 2: Yeah right, Like it's not like, oh, I didn't hear 439 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 2: this one before. It's not like, oh wow, like I 440 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: hadn't considered that angle. 441 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 4: Oh the Jews. Really the Jews, that's your hot intelligent 442 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 4: take the thousand year old conspiracy. 443 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: It's like the protocols of the Elders of Zion or 444 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 2: whatever is the new conspiracy that you're you that you've 445 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 2: now been been in clued into. But it's funny. It's 446 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: like Ian Elon shares the same shit. It's like the 447 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: Fauci conspiracy stuff. Yeah, and it's like the stuff that 448 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: is really designed for for people who don't have better 449 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 2: access to information. 450 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 4: Right, So a lot of what you've said applies to 451 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 4: many of us. You could take someone from the early 452 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: nineteen hundreds and they could make that speech about anyone 453 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 4: live after you know, nineteen ninety after two thousand and said, like, 454 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 4: you have access to incredible information, right, I thought drinking 455 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 4: mercury on a daily basis would improve my humors, you know, 456 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 4: and like you know better, Wait it doesn't, right, And 457 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 4: you have you know, Healthline and Wikipedia and doctors like 458 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 4: you have, you have science, and yet you still engage 459 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 4: in superstition and conspiracy and unproven things. So it's so 460 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 4: tempting and very easy. And I'll often be like, what's 461 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 4: wrong with those people? Right? But it's like, Okay, we're 462 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 4: all people. Something's wrong with all of us. They have 463 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 4: a bigger stage on which that's That's what I'm. 464 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: Saying is so yeah, I feel like I can understand 465 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: when you don't have access to. 466 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 4: So access doesn't mean anything. You know, people who enslaved 467 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 4: other people had access to the idea of human rights 468 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 4: right right, Like it wasn't like a secret, you know, 469 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 4: it wasn't like that, oh my god, people could just 470 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 4: own themselves what that's madness. They weren't waiting for you know, 471 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 4: King to say it out loud right right, It was no, 472 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 4: it was knowable, Yeah, And yet there were incentives set 473 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 4: up and benefits set up to encourage millions of people 474 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 4: to go along with something we now say is like 475 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 4: absolutely insane and dehumanizing and terrible. Right, that's a long 476 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 4: way of getting to like what the incentive for people 477 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 4: with presumably a lot of power and access to resources 478 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 4: and better information than us to engage in the opposite 479 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 4: transgression is a hell of a drug. And if you 480 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 4: can be self perceived as like, yo, I'm so punk rock, 481 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 4: you know, I find the real truth? Like it goes 482 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 4: back to X Files. Man, we're old enough to remember, 483 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 4: like the truth is out there, which planet a seed? 484 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 4: Not that show specifically, but it was of a moment 485 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 4: where we can't trust anything. Yeah, like two plus two 486 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 4: is for maybe prove it? Yeah, well okay, but what 487 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 4: kind of numbers are you and what system of math 488 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 4: are you basing that on? What assumption? 489 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 3: Right? 490 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 4: You can think yourself into not thinking, you're thinking when 491 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 4: you're just viewing nonsense. And there's a lot of nonsense 492 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 4: that passes for intelligence and thought these days. That's just 493 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 4: counterintuitive bullshit. Right. But it's packaged up as Andrew Tate, 494 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 4: you know, wow, it's packaged up as Ben Shapiro, And 495 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 4: he sounds like a nerd, so he must be smart. 496 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 4: I love Ben right, not that everything he says is bullshit, 497 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 4: but so much is so much, And so I think 498 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 4: people like a Kanye or an Elon or parts of us, 499 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 4: it's like, all right, I know you told me that COVID, 500 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 4: you know we'd have to do these things. But I 501 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 4: know the government's been wrong about this stuff before. Look, 502 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 4: the black person in me, not specifically me, but ancestrally, 503 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 4: who was experimented on in Tuskegee by government health experiments, 504 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 4: understand skepticism about government health mandates that might hurt people. 505 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 4: So the anti vax thing is not even like, you're 506 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 4: so dumb, why don't you believe science? Well, fucking science 507 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 4: is always changing, right, and sometimes science is abused. When 508 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 4: you have no trust or very low trust in the environment, 509 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 4: then you can take good faith nuance and weaponize it 510 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 4: as faith in nothing, and it becomes nihilism, and it 511 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 4: becomes ship posting, and it becomes pretend intelligence when you're 512 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 4: just peddling noise and nonsense. And I think Elon crossed 513 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 4: that line so much. As a business owner, he was 514 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 4: frustrated at California's mandates to keep people safe, right, and 515 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 4: he took it to the extreme and is now pedling 516 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 4: conspiracy theories about one guy who's spent most of his 517 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 4: life literally trying to save millions and millions of people, right, Like, 518 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 4: there's many people who could and should be vilified. Anthony 519 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 4: Fauci ain't one of them. He's made mistakes. I would 520 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 4: acknowledge that some of the messaging wasn't always clear, but 521 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 4: prosecution those are working out here trump a bit. Yeah, 522 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 4: it's like metal, you know, not like firing lines. I 523 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 4: don't know, man, Well I know some of the answer 524 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 4: and it gets exhausting sometimes. But then this is also like, okay, 525 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 4: what's the what's the lesson or the opportunity here besides 526 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 4: spinning up media cycles? Talking about the guy who's powered 527 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 4: by media cycles? Right? And I mean, I think the 528 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 4: deeper thing that we're playing around with here, which is like, Okay, 529 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 4: what's the motivation, what's the incentive? How do we try 530 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 4: to like protect against this because he's not alone, he's loud. 531 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 4: But I just I think there's something about being perceived 532 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 4: as brave and clever, and there is a value to 533 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: victimhood which anyone in power loves to wrap themselves in. 534 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 4: That flag. The greatest deflection against criticism of your own 535 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: power is to claim to be the victim. 536 00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: You know. 537 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: It's it's just so crazy too. You're like, I don't 538 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: think you're the guy who's had the hard time. 539 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. 540 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 2: The thing you said about the X Files, which I 541 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 2: think about all the time, is like, you know, when 542 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 2: I was a kid, you know, or whatever, young adult, 543 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: I guess when it was on. There's a lot of 544 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 2: stuff on that show that circles of friends of mine 545 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: we were like, yeah, what is up with not like 546 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: the things like there's aliens or whatever. Yeah, but there 547 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: were books that now form the basis for like some 548 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: of the craziest, most fringe conspiracy theories that were like 549 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: these books like Behold a Pale Horse in like these 550 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 2: like old school like the Robert Anton Wilson books like 551 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: the Illuminatus trilogy and stuff that were like, oh, yeah, 552 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: the Knights Templar and the Vatican and there's all this 553 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: like cover up and whatever, and you're kind of like, yeah, 554 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: I kind of believe that because the Vatican seems sort 555 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: of fucked up and who knows what's really. 556 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 3: Going on there? 557 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: All the people I knew it was all like the 558 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: fascist state, the government man is like covering it up 559 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: or whatever. 560 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 3: And now it's like weirdly flipped. 561 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the right wing now has like somehow adopted these 562 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 2: things that I felt like were these really like almost 563 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: like hippieish sort of conspiracies. 564 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 4: If you think of conspiracy theories as a virus capable 565 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 4: of spreading morally neutral in terms of the hosts, it 566 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 4: will attach itself to yeah, and it has variants, and 567 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 4: it will mutate, and it will find new ways to 568 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 4: increase the mortality rate, but not so much that it 569 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 4: decreases the are not in the spread, Like all this 570 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 4: stuff we should know, but we know now because of COVIDR. 571 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 4: We're all a little epidemiologists. Now I just dropped. Are 572 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 4: not in a casual conversation. So because I read a 573 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 4: white paper, you know, or five in the past three years. 574 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 3: You're staying in formed, you know what's going on. 575 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 4: And again overwhelming my brain with things that I like 576 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 4: specialists to actually specialize. Right, So you know, being liberal 577 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 4: is not an inoculation against conspiracy. Right, And the same 578 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 4: doubt of systems, you know, is available to liberal and 579 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 4: conservative and it's the basis for americanness. To begin with, 580 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 4: like we don't trust the king. We started with distrust. 581 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 4: That's a good point. We should overthrow the government. Actually, yeah, 582 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 4: So it's like whether you're like a black panther who 583 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 4: doesn't trust the government, or like some libertarian pharm owner 584 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 4: who doesn't trust the government. Like we share something. We like, 585 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 4: what's up with this government? And even though one may 586 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 4: vote for Democrats and the other. 587 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: For Republicans, with this government, I think that's a that's 588 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: a great. 589 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 4: Question, is a super good question. But I also like 590 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 4: I used to indulge in conspiracy theory. I'm gonna I 591 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 4: can't believe I'm about to say before everybody else did. 592 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: Josh, Wow, Oh you're like the the indie rock guy. 593 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I'm that guy. I'm that guy that like 594 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 4: I was there at the at the indie club, you know, 595 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 4: like in the base. 596 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 3: Like losing my edge. 597 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: This is the LCD sounds lose to my edge, you Like, 598 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 2: I was there when it happened. 599 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 4: And now that everybody's into them, they're not cool anymore. 600 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 3: You were the original infoce. 601 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 4: Theories are not cool when the richest guy in the 602 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 4: world loudly embraces them, right, they lose their heads cutly 603 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 4: not fun. It is no longer transgressive or countercultural when 604 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 4: the ruling class rules by conspiracy theory. 605 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. 606 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,239 Speaker 4: Right, So when the President of the United States is like, 607 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 4: you know what's true, lizard people like fuck, I guess 608 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 4: I can't be engaged in that. 609 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 3: It actually says him, but lizard people didn't. I mean, 610 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: he's got so. 611 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 4: It's not cool, and I think it's it's more but 612 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 4: it's more dangerous. There's something about indulging, like with highly 613 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 4: processed foods or dessert, right, a little bit has value. 614 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 4: It can add balance, it can add an interesting, rich flavor. 615 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 4: But if you just eat that, if you only eat Twizzlers, yeah, 616 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 4: you're gonna die a horrible depth sooner. 617 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 2: Than it's actually a sponsor of this episode, so sort 618 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: of disappointing to hear that you're not a fan, but. 619 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 4: It's too popular. They need to stay punk, you know, 620 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 4: punk can ever be mainstream. 621 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: Twizzler is the most punk candy of all time as well. Know, 622 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: it's funny that you mentioned that you were into conspiracy 623 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: when it was cool or whatever, but. 624 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 4: Like ham Radio times, you know what I'm saying, Like, 625 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 4: as a whole different level of commitment. 626 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: Well, I used to. 627 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 2: I used to love Coast to Coast, you know, the 628 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: Art Bell Show, which is like people calling and they'd 629 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: be like, you know, I was haunted by a spirit 630 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: or whatever. Or he'd have people on who had had 631 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 2: like UFO sightings. And actually Alex Jones comes from his show, 632 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: like he became a regular or something on the show, 633 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: which was like, you know, it was like a naturally 634 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: syndicated like yeah, he was on at midnight and it 635 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 2: would be like people talking about conspiracy or talking about 636 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: ghosts or talking about whatever. And it was fun because 637 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 2: it was like, be crazy if that were real, you know, 638 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: to your point, like when the president is like it's real, 639 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: it's like okay, like you know what, Yeah, that loses 640 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 2: a little bit of its novelty factor. 641 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think a little bit of like high sodium, 642 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 4: high fructose corn cere like beef jerky whatever the thing is, 643 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 4: like a beef jerky food cans, you know, like, oh, 644 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 4: that's that's cool. If you're traveling to space, it shouldn't 645 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 4: be your whole diet. 646 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: I don't know what tun to diversify outside the cave, 647 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: and it's a little bit of conspiracy theory. 648 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 4: It probably does a body good, right, a whole system 649 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,479 Speaker 4: built on it. Then the whole system falls down because 650 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 4: we actually do need to believe in something. Yeah, non 651 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 4: belief isn't enough. And if you start doubting everything, you 652 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 4: don't have anything left to stand on. You find yourself 653 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 4: alone in the universe, which is pretty existentially terrifying, which 654 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 4: is Elon Musk almost. It's where he's headed. 655 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: That's why he's like trying to like fly out to Mars, 656 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 2: like be literally alone in the universe. 657 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 4: But the cost of his indulgence is a lot of 658 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 4: the rest of us, you know. 659 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 2: No, I mean, we're all just the shrapnel flying at 660 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 2: everybody from his like own weird like midlife crisis that 661 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: he's experiencing that he has to like talk about on Twitter. 662 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 2: Adjacent to Twitter, you just wrote this piece about TikTok, 663 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 2: about America trying to shut down TikTok Get Out of TikTok. 664 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 4: Which people can read at puck dot News, Puck dot News, 665 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 4: buy my page. TikTok on the Clock or something like that. 666 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 3: Is the title, hold on, I'm I tell you it is. 667 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 3: The headline is TikTok on the Clock. 668 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 2: I have it up here what happens to the creator 669 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 2: economy If the world's most important new social platform is 670 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 2: banned in the United States, we may be amount to 671 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 2: find out, says Caratonde. Uh okay, but like it's not 672 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: gonna be banned, is it? They're gonna band You said 673 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: that like gen Z would. 674 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 4: And Gen Alpha would unite form Voltron from gen. 675 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 3: I don't have any Whether they don't have any power. 676 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 4: We all have more power than we know. And I 677 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 4: think if these kids stopped signing up from military duty, 678 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 4: if they stopped paying for their parents and grandparents social 679 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 4: Security checks, because we're in this page you go system, 680 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 4: they could they could shut some shit down. 681 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 3: Do you think TikTok is that important? You don't think 682 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 3: they'd just be like, well. 683 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 4: You know, I nodded to the idea that something so 684 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 4: culturally enmeshed and with such deep daily habits, you know 685 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 4: it's some high person. Is there some stats I left 686 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 4: out of this piece as far as like the number 687 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 4: of people under nineteen that represent the core usage of 688 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 4: TikTok It it seems impossible. I don't think it is. 689 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 4: It seems impossible that one day that would just disappear. 690 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 3: I think you say the average time daily is like. 691 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 4: Ninety minutes a day is the average TikTok craze and 692 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 4: they have a billion monthly active user. 693 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 2: Well, I say that's crazy, But then I'm like, how 694 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 2: much time did previous generations spend watching TV? And it's 695 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 2: way more than ninety minutes a day. 696 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like four hours a day or more. 697 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 4: I remember finding these stats in the early two thousands. 698 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 2: So we're like all blown away by that, but like, 699 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 2: actually it's much close to do because in TikTok is 700 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: in some way like you're kind of flipping through channels, 701 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 2: so it is actually closer to a TV experience than 702 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: maybe any other social. 703 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 4: App and the end, and it's higher for our high 704 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 4: usage people, right, you know, it's like that's the average user, 705 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 4: and then the ones who over index are going to 706 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 4: be two hours a day, three hours a day and 707 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 4: just living in the palmitter hand. So I think you'd 708 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 4: be based on the combination of concerns about TikTok. You've 709 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 4: got people concerned about data and privacy. You've got people 710 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 4: concerned about youth mental health, and that's like a catchy 711 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 4: thing to suddenly give a shit about. You've got folks 712 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 4: concerned about China, some for good reasons, some for racist reasons, 713 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 4: but their reasons don't matter. They're on the same team 714 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,959 Speaker 4: when it comes to like skepticism toward anything that comes 715 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 4: from that nation. 716 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 2: It's like that meme with the with the meme with 717 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 2: the arms locked together. You know I'm talking about it 718 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 2: looks like two guys like arm wrestling, but it's like, 719 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: is it like a black arm and a white arm 720 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: and they're like locked together? 721 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 3: Am I crazy? 722 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 4: I just like to make it feel crazy. You're not 723 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 4: fun to watch. You try to paint a picture with 724 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 4: one got a name? I don't know. Let's leave it 725 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 4: to a listener. This will be the Easter egg. The 726 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 4: first listener to find me on Mastadon and tell. 727 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: Me it's called epic handshake. Okay, you know what I'm 728 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 2: talking about, right. 729 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 4: I probably know what you're talking about, but not by that. 730 00:37:58,719 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 3: Damn it. 731 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: Hold on, I'm just gonna say you this meme template 732 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 2: right now. I'm going to put in the chat here. 733 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 2: Oh you were saying that, like, yeah, the people who 734 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 2: are like racists, Yeah, it's a coalition people who have 735 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 2: good reasons to worry about China. 736 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 3: It's like this meme. 737 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 4: It's like, it's like mental health advocates, racists, national security people. Right, 738 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 4: the Van diagram is very diverse here, that's the illustration 739 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 4: we should have done. 740 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: I like that, Actually is could this be the thing 741 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 2: that brings us all together? 742 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 4: Yes? 743 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 3: I mean I do think a common enemy. 744 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 4: I thought that before COVID. I was like, oh, COVID 745 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 4: is the alien invasion. It's as close as we're going 746 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 4: to get. And it ripped the country apart in the 747 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 4: world too. 748 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 2: So No, it's funny because I thought the same thing 749 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 2: about when Russia invaded Ukraine. I was like, Okay, now America, 750 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 2: we're classically against us. You don't like Russia historically like 751 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: we are, And and Matt gets is like, actually, no, 752 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: it's crazy, right, it's fucking bizarre. These Republicans are like, actually, 753 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 2: you know, Putin's got a good point. It's like, dude, 754 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: does he like is that where we're at? Is that 755 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: where you're part? 756 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 3: Aready? Anyhow? 757 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 2: Sorry, not not to fucking lose it, but let's take 758 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 2: some deep breaths together. Josh is TikTok dangerous? Yeah, this 759 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 2: sounds like the most bullshit sorry like CNN question of 760 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 2: all time. 761 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 3: Bear Tunde. Is TikTok dangerous for the youth? 762 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 4: No? 763 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 3: I mean, like what is your take on it? 764 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 2: Like do you actually think there's real concern Like at 765 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 2: the privacy thing I get, I get snooping shit, but like. 766 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 4: I think there's real concern in that is super addictive 767 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 4: and it's become back to this world of low and 768 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 4: no trust. TikTok the place people go to get real 769 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 4: questions answered. It's like chat GPT, but like way larger scale, 770 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 4: and sometimes the results you get back are as non 771 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 4: factual as that bot. Oh yeah, but they present as 772 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 4: like this is what you should do to heal this thing, 773 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 4: this is what you should do in terms of how 774 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 4: you vote. 775 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 3: No misinfo on TikTok is crazy. 776 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So it's it's a risky vector for misinformation. 777 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 4: It's risky in terms of the black box of how 778 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 4: it operates and semi public square media ecosystem without checks 779 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,399 Speaker 4: and balances, and that's always been that was the case 780 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 4: with Facebook, that's the case with But it's just transfers 781 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 4: to whatever the hot thing is, right, and TikTok for 782 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 4: me is more fascinating and potentially more dangerous because it's 783 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 4: a social network that like you don't have to bring 784 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 4: friends to experience it. You just trust, like the algorithm 785 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 4: is the one friend you need. Whether you're a creator 786 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 4: or I'm more of a passive consumer. In terms of 787 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 4: your experience on there, you like a few things, you 788 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 4: linger a half second longer on this thing versus that thing, 789 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 4: And they just dialed you in quick and they put 790 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 4: you in a little box and like you are this 791 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 4: type of user for four to six dash B seven 792 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 4: and you get that stuff in your feed. And it's 793 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 4: like if a pharmaceutical company could like build a highly 794 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 4: addictive drug just for you within ten minutes of knowing you. 795 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 2: That sounds great, unless yet that's what I want. Okay, 796 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 2: you got a little bit high from this, Like what 797 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 2: if we kind of juice that. 798 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's for the personalized drugs. Yeah, it's actually it's 799 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 4: the promise of your actual. 800 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 2: Personal sound attractive and exciting to me? Is that a 801 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 2: problem for me personally? As you've been describing TikTok just 802 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 2: in this last thirty seconds or forty five seconds, I 803 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: have been in the back of my head, I'm like, 804 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 2: maybe I should be looking at TikTok more often, like 805 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 2: almost very sick man. I'm doing dry January, so it 806 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 2: could be I'm just looking for something like addictive, a 807 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,399 Speaker 2: new fix, you know, but. 808 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 3: Like I get it. I've been there, I do. 809 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: I'll open TikTok occasionally and I'm like, you know, you'll 810 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 2: start looking at shit. It is like the pringles, you know, 811 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 2: like once you pop, you can't stop or whatever. 812 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 4: It's also and what I didn't put in the puck 813 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,399 Speaker 4: piece because I can never put everything in one thing. 814 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 4: So we copy and paste, like we are a meme 815 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 4: driven society, even before we use that word the way 816 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 4: Hollywood does a copy and paste on types of movies. 817 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 4: You know, one thing hits and everybody's doing the thing right. 818 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 4: Everybody wants a Marvel cinematic universe, and everybody needs big 819 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 4: ip and like leverage a book or a superstar or 820 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 4: preferably both, so the risk is lower and we can 821 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 4: just spend a fuck ton of money on this and 822 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 4: make a fuck ton of money after that and not 823 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 4: be original. Right. That also happens in business and tech 824 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 4: and social media. Facebook just copies and paste. So the 825 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 4: more successful TikTok is, the more everything else looks like TikTok. Right, 826 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 4: our Instagram isn't Instagram anymore. 827 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 2: It's just TikTok. Yeah, but a failed TikTok, like a 828 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 2: bad TikTok. So if I'm on a reel and I 829 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 2: accidentally go to the next reel, I'm like, I'm immediately 830 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 2: turned off and always like how do I get out 831 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 2: of this? Which they don't make very easy. Of course 832 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 2: they don't. It's entrap mean, but you can't get out 833 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 2: of the reels once you're in there. I've quit the 834 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 2: app on multiple occasions. 835 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 4: They're not your friendly neighborhood drug dealer. They're not cal 836 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 4: or Doug or Jena, whoever you're a dealer with. They 837 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 4: are big pharma of social media. 838 00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 3: I have a medical marijuana lize, so I get it 839 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 3: from the state. 840 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 4: When it jumped the shark a bit for me, I'm 841 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 4: on Instagram. Like you had Twitter with text. You like reading, 842 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 4: you know, you like writing, but not too much. That's 843 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 4: Twitter for you. You want to write too much, that's medium 844 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 4: for you. There's blog Spot or something to date myself 845 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 4: if you want. If you want still photos and like 846 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 4: cool photos with stories associated with them in captions, then 847 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 4: you go to Instagram. You want short form video that 848 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 4: kind of moves at the speed of freaking meth. Then 849 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 4: you go to TikTok. But now everything is everybody just 850 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 4: has to be in everybody else's shit, and nobody can 851 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 4: just be who they are. So there's no fixed identities 852 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 4: in this world. So everybody just wants to be what 853 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 4: the cool kid is at the time. So Facebook is TikTok, 854 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 4: Instagram is TikTok. Twitter is just whatever. It's dead. But 855 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 4: I think when I'm on Instagram and I see I 856 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 4: see a still photo, but it's actually a video because 857 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 4: the algorithm and the incentive structure forced a normal human 858 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 4: being to use a weird app to turn their photo 859 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,840 Speaker 4: into a looping, thirteen second video. Not a gift. Gifts 860 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,360 Speaker 4: are a whole thing. That's a whole different type of 861 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 4: media format. Totally had a place for that too. Nope, 862 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,919 Speaker 4: so we're just gonna We're gonna contort your natural abilities 863 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 4: and sensibilities into this other thing because we don't know 864 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 4: how to make our own shit work, so we're just 865 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 4: going to copy theirs and make you TikTok. So even 866 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,879 Speaker 4: people who are on Instagram, I hate TikTok. No you don't, 867 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 4: because you're in it, right now you're living in TikTok's 868 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 4: great shadow. 869 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 2: But I think that people on Instagram do legitimately hate it, 870 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 2: and I believe strongly that the only reason why reels, 871 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 2: if it's successful at all, it's because it's being like 872 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 2: forcibly pushed on the users in a way that it's 873 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 2: like really uncomfortable and they don't like. 874 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 4: And here that was the great Facebook pivot to video 875 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 4: that accelerated the overinvestment of so many newsrooms. And it 876 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,240 Speaker 4: was like years later, like, well, actually we were counting 877 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 4: three second video starts. Well, okay, actually we added a 878 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 4: zero to all the video plays across the network. 879 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,240 Speaker 2: Now, if listeners may not know, there was a period 880 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 2: where on the Internet when there was like a news 881 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 2: company or whatever, they would just publish like texts. Sometimes 882 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 2: they'd do like a long form video, there'd be some images, 883 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,240 Speaker 2: they would do a gallery. And then one day Facebook 884 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 2: was like, video is going to be the next big 885 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 2: thing for our platform. Everybody should really make video. And 886 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 2: then it literally many large news organizations that were well 887 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 2: funded where like we're firing the people who write and 888 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 2: we're gonna make video yep. 889 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 3: And then it was a huge failure. Nobody watching any 890 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 3: of the video. 891 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 2: Nobody gave a shit, and then a bunch of those 892 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 2: companies went out of business, like a crazy amount of 893 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 2: companies now don't exist because of the pivot to video. 894 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 2: And then Facebook was like, oh, we'd like completely miscounted 895 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 2: the numbers. Also, like those views we said you were getting, 896 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,279 Speaker 2: like we're not real at all, Like we didn't have 897 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 2: any real clue about what we were doing there, or 898 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 2: we lied. 899 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,840 Speaker 4: And on top of that, you cannot trust the outlet 900 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 4: with an incentive to inflate its numbers to tell you 901 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 4: what's going on. And part of what happened is Facebook 902 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 4: shifted its algorithm to prioritize video, you know, right, to 903 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 4: make sure it went more viral, got more views and 904 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 4: ranked higher than stills or texts. And then they publicly 905 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 4: said we're seeing a shift toward video amongst our users. 906 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 3: Right, They're like, they're like, it's weird. 907 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,719 Speaker 2: We put video now on their feed and they seem 908 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 2: to be watching it because there's nothing else. 909 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:46,720 Speaker 3: I mean, it's true. 910 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,439 Speaker 4: That's like you know, Shi Jinping saying, you know, we're 911 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 4: just seeing a high degree of loyalty among other people 912 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 4: of China. Right for me, people want me to rule forever, 913 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 4: said the man holding a gun to his people. 914 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 2: We should be so, we should be so lucky to 915 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,439 Speaker 2: have such an opportunity to just completely railroad people like left, 916 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,320 Speaker 2: right and center and just just forcing this shit on them. 917 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 2: It's a bleak picture, but I have a thought listening 918 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 2: to you describe what's going on with the tiktokification of 919 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,920 Speaker 2: all the social networks, which is like, to me, it 920 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 2: almost feels like the Netflix effect, which I think we've 921 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,319 Speaker 2: seen now kind of start to crumble a bit, which 922 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 2: is like Netflix is like, we're Netflix. We're doing our thing. Now, 923 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 2: we're making original stuff. Okay, now that's fucking killing. Now 924 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 2: everybody is scrambling like to play catch up to the 925 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,760 Speaker 2: streaming Netflix to be Netflix, right, and you've got HBO 926 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 2: doing it, and you've got fucking Paramount doing it whoever, 927 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 2: And and it turns out there's like a limit to 928 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 2: how much of that shit that we want and that 929 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 2: will tolerate, and frankly, like there's a fatigue that will 930 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 2: set in after a while, right where you're just like 931 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 2: this may be the best shit in the world. I 932 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 2: may have one hundred of the best shows to watch, 933 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 2: but like I don't really have the time or the 934 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 2: attention span or the interest at this point, because like 935 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 2: my doobamine has. 936 00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 3: Left my brain. I'm fucking like tapped out. 937 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 2: Is it possible that this is the final breath or 938 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 2: the near final breath of like social media as we 939 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 2: know it, that it's collapsing in upon itself, like they've 940 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 2: run out of ideas, they've run out of attention. I 941 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 2: do think this is just me riffing now, but like 942 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,720 Speaker 2: I do think we are entering a phase, not post pandemic, 943 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 2: because they're still like a pandemic happening, but post the worst, 944 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 2: most intense part of it that we experienced where we 945 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 2: were all alone inside online all day for a long time. 946 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 2: I feel like there's a little bit of like people 947 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,479 Speaker 2: going like I don't know if that's what I want 948 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 2: to be now, Like I want to be like that. 949 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,360 Speaker 2: So is it possible there's these like all these forces 950 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 2: coming together. This is just my weird wishful thinking that 951 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:48,280 Speaker 2: like people don't want TikTok everywhere, they don't even maybe 952 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 2: want to be on social media that much anymore. Maybe 953 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 2: TikTok is just this like super pronounced last gasp of 954 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 2: social media as we know it any any Does that 955 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:03,760 Speaker 2: sound like possible? 956 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 4: I think, I think that's a beautiful sentiment. I want 957 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 4: that world. I still believe that world as possible. I 958 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 4: remember I loved clubhouse, and then I went outside clubhouse. 959 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 3: God, I forgot about clubhouse. Right. 960 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,480 Speaker 4: It was very simple. I couldn't socialize, I couldn't host things, 961 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 4: and that was a wonderful substitute. And then I left 962 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 4: my house right, and I went and filmed my TV 963 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 4: series America Outdoors on PBS. Check it out in the 964 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,360 Speaker 4: PBS apps, great very Smith Clugg. And I was like, 965 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I'm not spending all my time 966 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 4: talking to strangers on a party line. I'm just like 967 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 4: at a restaurant. Again. Well, I love restaurants, you know what. 968 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,279 Speaker 4: I love strangers on the street. I love random people 969 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,759 Speaker 4: at the coffee shop. Taken too long to order? Give 970 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 4: me a DMV line. Yes, And it was all superior 971 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 4: to that novel interesting but unsustainable blip in the in 972 00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 4: the grand sweep of all the social technologies. It was 973 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,840 Speaker 4: like a Poe blip. And so I was wrong about 974 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 4: the sustainability of that. And more to the point, so 975 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,200 Speaker 4: where the people who devoted so much more of their 976 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 4: time to it with social media, I am excited for 977 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 4: us to escape the phase that we've been in the 978 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 4: centralization the feed based Like even the word feed just 979 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,600 Speaker 4: makes me feel like livestock, right, just like, oh, I'm 980 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,240 Speaker 4: going to go to the feed. I'm going to feed. 981 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 4: I'm freaking the memes and the data. And then some 982 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 4: they're just fattening me up to shove ads into the 983 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,799 Speaker 4: feed to take stuff from me so I can buy things. 984 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,160 Speaker 3: I don't need to monetize you. 985 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so we will always tend toward that because 986 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,400 Speaker 4: of capitalism, which won't let a diverse ecosystem prevail. That 987 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 4: will tend toward monoculture in food, in entertainment, in technology platforms, 988 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 4: because people want more and more and more, and shareholders 989 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 4: want more and more and more, and that means everybody's 990 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 4: got to taste the same. Damn rabbit. But the gen 991 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 4: Z and the Alphas in particular, you know, they grew 992 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 4: up in the ashes of the financial crisis, and they 993 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,959 Speaker 4: bear the brunt of the trillion dollars of college debt. 994 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,000 Speaker 4: You know, they're older siblings, especially, so like, I don't 995 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,280 Speaker 4: know so much about this, And then the planet's reminding 996 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 4: us like, Hey, this whole feed based system, infinite feeding, 997 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,439 Speaker 4: you'll eat your home planet and won't have anywhere to live. 998 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,359 Speaker 4: That's not sustainable either. So more of us, I don't 999 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 4: know if the whole system will totally change, but more 1000 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,600 Speaker 4: of us will seek this alternative universe you're talking about. 1001 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 4: It excites me, and so I joke about Mastodon. I 1002 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 4: think it's like a hint that we can create other environments. 1003 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,880 Speaker 4: In my podcast How the Citizen, the most recent season 1004 00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,799 Speaker 4: is exploring how we use technology to help us show 1005 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 4: up as active citizens and members of society and not 1006 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 4: just be fed to an economic engine that we didn't 1007 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 4: build and that we generally don't benefit from. And I 1008 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 4: just learned a lot talking to people who've done different 1009 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,120 Speaker 4: things with tech, the folks that knew public who were 1010 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 4: designing digital public spaces differently, as for Alshafe over in 1011 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 4: the Middle East, who's created this social media network that 1012 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 4: operates very differently from all the noise we've been talking 1013 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,439 Speaker 4: about and just doesn't give people infinite powers on day 1014 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 4: zero to fuck around and find out how much damage 1015 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,359 Speaker 4: they can cause the society. It respectfully onboards people into 1016 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,800 Speaker 4: actual communities first. It doesn't have vcs, which makes it possible. 1017 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 4: I love that, and because the incentives, like if you 1018 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,759 Speaker 4: start with venture capital money, and so it's rich people 1019 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,560 Speaker 4: who need to get richer. So this is already just 1020 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:41,000 Speaker 4: like disposable, but they drive everything you pursue downstream from that. 1021 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,719 Speaker 4: All your user research, all your UX design, all your 1022 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 4: growth marketing tactics are so that a millionaire can get 1023 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,879 Speaker 4: to be a billionaire. Then whose need are you really 1024 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 4: meeting with that feed and so to really have TikTok 1025 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,439 Speaker 4: be the last gasp, we need different funding mechanisms which 1026 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 4: are available but not wide scale, and we need people 1027 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:07,880 Speaker 4: designing these spaces who are more than just bored engineers. Yeah, 1028 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 4: we need people who actually know how to design spaces, 1029 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:16,799 Speaker 4: you know, like designers, interior designers, cultural programmers, artists. We 1030 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 4: need folks who understand people to build spaces for people. 1031 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,799 Speaker 4: And many of those folks have not been included. They've 1032 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 4: been subjected to the visions and imaginations of a very 1033 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:32,000 Speaker 4: small group of folk who don't have the broadest human experience. 1034 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 3: And who are incentivized to make money. 1035 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, above all, it might talk about like community and ship, but. 1036 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,319 Speaker 4: You don't have to take a vow of poverty but 1037 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,240 Speaker 4: if your premise is returning ten x and getting valued 1038 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,719 Speaker 4: at a billion dollars and being a unicorn, then you've 1039 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 4: already You've already I wouldn't even say corrupted. You have 1040 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 4: vastly limited the possibilities for what you create under those conditions, 1041 00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 4: and so we need fewer limits. 1042 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 3: First, of your vision. This vision you're just paying is 1043 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 3: very beautiful. I feel like that. 1044 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 4: I think I think we you know, we did that 1045 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 4: a little bit together. I'll take it. 1046 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 3: I will take some credit. 1047 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,239 Speaker 4: You can have fifteen percent of the vision at a 1048 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,440 Speaker 4: pre money valuation, generous call it thirty million. 1049 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,120 Speaker 3: Thank you. That sounds good. 1050 00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,520 Speaker 2: I'll fine, I'll take that. I like that, all right. 1051 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 2: So okay, I think that's a great place to leave it. 1052 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,080 Speaker 2: But you have a ton of stuff going on. You 1053 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,840 Speaker 2: mentioned a couple of things now before we end. I 1054 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,399 Speaker 2: want you to tell me then, and by proxy tell 1055 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,759 Speaker 2: everybody listening. Obviously you're writing for pop You've got a 1056 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:31,440 Speaker 2: PBS show you just mentioned. 1057 00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called America Outdoors. When can I see that? 1058 00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 4: Where can I see that? You can see it now? 1059 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,360 Speaker 4: It's re airing on you know. Find your local PBS affiliate. 1060 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,760 Speaker 4: You can go to PBS dot org slash America Outdoors. 1061 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,440 Speaker 4: They have a great streaming app that doesn't strip your 1062 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,160 Speaker 4: identity and sell it back to you. Just the PBS 1063 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,680 Speaker 4: digital app PBS Passport. If you pay, Oh yeah, I 1064 00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:52,440 Speaker 4: subscribe to that. 1065 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,800 Speaker 2: It's great. It's it's money well spent. It's like I 1066 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,759 Speaker 2: think it's cheap too. It's like a yearly thing, it's 1067 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:57,319 Speaker 2: like forty bucks. 1068 00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's great, and you're supporting your local PBS station, 1069 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,239 Speaker 4: which in some communities is the only local news available 1070 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,360 Speaker 4: and local media available. So I've become an even bigger 1071 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,600 Speaker 4: fan of PBS working with them and not just watching 1072 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,440 Speaker 4: some of their stuff. So check out America Outdoors. It's 1073 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,680 Speaker 4: not a wildlife show. It's a human show about our 1074 00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,840 Speaker 4: relationship with nature's and it's people we don't typically see. 1075 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,000 Speaker 4: A couple of examples. I spent time with formally incarcerated 1076 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,880 Speaker 4: folk who learned how to fight forest fires in prison 1077 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 4: and now do it as free people and understand some 1078 00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,560 Speaker 4: of their journey. I spend time with multiple indigenous communities 1079 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 4: in what we call Idaho and Minnesota and California and 1080 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 4: learned many of their traditions with respect to the land 1081 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 4: that they're on I go crabbing with the most conservative 1082 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,400 Speaker 4: person I've ever knowingly been around in my life in 1083 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,439 Speaker 4: the chest today, and I go hiking with refugee kids 1084 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,239 Speaker 4: in Idaho, like it's surfing and horseback riding and just 1085 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,759 Speaker 4: beautiful people. When it helped me remember how much we 1086 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 4: still have in common, which includes, at the basis level, 1087 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 4: our planet. So check out America outdoors, check out Puck, 1088 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,240 Speaker 4: pay for it, It's worth it. And how the Citizen 1089 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 4: is my podcast where we take Citizen to be a verb. 1090 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:16,440 Speaker 3: And you're in season three. 1091 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 4: We are at season four now, we're we're about to 1092 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,840 Speaker 4: drop season four. We launched in twenty twenty, got some awards, 1093 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,759 Speaker 4: had some really dope conversations, and the show is all 1094 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:30,640 Speaker 4: about sharing new ways to show up in society and 1095 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,080 Speaker 4: exercise our power. Sometimes that's voting, most of the time 1096 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:37,600 Speaker 4: it's a total new bag. It's business stuff, it's tech stuff, 1097 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 4: it's culture stuff. And I tend to interview one person 1098 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,520 Speaker 4: at a time about their thing, and then we give 1099 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 4: listeners in each episode a way to make it your 1100 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 4: thing and actions you can take in your life to 1101 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 4: just practice these muscles that have aturo feed so much 1102 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 4: because the only thing we've been told to do is. 1103 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,640 Speaker 3: Shopkeehit, which is guy. 1104 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,319 Speaker 2: You gotta admit it's pretty fun though, like it's super fun. 1105 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,800 Speaker 4: Hot in fact, Yeah, they've gamified resource loss. 1106 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:04,680 Speaker 3: It's so true. 1107 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,719 Speaker 4: So Josh, it's a great reunion. Yeah, thank you for 1108 00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,520 Speaker 4: having me on here. Thank you so much for doing this. 1109 00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,040 Speaker 4: You got to come back do it some more, talk 1110 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,319 Speaker 4: about some new things. I'm sure you'll have like ten 1111 00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 4: new things next time. We talked to each other. Happy 1112 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:18,280 Speaker 4: to come back. 1113 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 2: Well, that conversation was amazing and also went kind of long, 1114 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,680 Speaker 2: so I don't have a lot of time. They're telling 1115 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 2: me I have to wrap it up now, they're telling me. 1116 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,360 Speaker 2: There's several people are motioning towards me. Look, they're doing 1117 00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 2: that thing where they pointing to their watch and then 1118 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,080 Speaker 2: like making their hand go in a circle like wrap 1119 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,560 Speaker 2: it up. So I'm feeling a lot of pressure right now. 1120 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:43,640 Speaker 2: So that is our show for this week, and we'll 1121 00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,160 Speaker 2: be back next week with more What Future And I 1122 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,040 Speaker 2: should say before I go that. What Future is an 1123 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,920 Speaker 2: iHeartMedia podcast. It's executive produced by Lyras Smith, Adam Wand 1124 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,280 Speaker 2: is our editor, and Jenna Caagel Am I saying that 1125 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 2: right Kegel, just like Bagel right, is our supervising producer. 1126 00:57:58,920 --> 00:57:59,520 Speaker 3: She's mad at me. 1127 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,920 Speaker 2: Now, I hope you're all happy, and if you would 1128 00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:03,480 Speaker 2: like to, and you don't have to know, one's going 1129 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 2: to afford to you, but it would be great for me. 1130 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 2: I could finally hold my head up proudly at family dinners. 1131 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,400 Speaker 2: If you would just go on iTunes or Apple podcasts 1132 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,120 Speaker 2: or any place where you can add a star rating 1133 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 2: to this podcast and give it five or six stars, 1134 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 2: that would be great because my family doesn't respect me, 1135 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:23,120 Speaker 2: and I think if you do that, they'll start to 1136 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 2: come around to the idea that I'm worth respecting. 1137 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,120 Speaker 3: So I really appreciate that