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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, have you been ordering stuff online a lot lately. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, like everyone, I've been clicking on websites rather

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Speaker 1: than visiting stores. Yeah, you don't need a mass when

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Speaker 1: you click. I guess it is pretty amazing how inexpensive

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Speaker 1: it is these days to get stuff sent to your

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Speaker 1: house from around the world. Even if it comes from

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Speaker 1: the other side of the planet. It can just be

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Speaker 1: like a few cents per gram to ship it to

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Speaker 1: your house. Yeah, you know, I wonder when we can

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Speaker 1: start ordering stuff from even further away. I've been trying

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Speaker 1: to order some moon rocks. I wonder how much is

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Speaker 1: the shipping on those things. Well, I heard NASA spent

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Speaker 1: about three hundred thousand dollars per gram to get some

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Speaker 1: moon rocks. But you know, I think it's cheaper if

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Speaker 1: you have prime. You know, Jeff Bezos is starting his

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Speaker 1: own rocket company, so he's probably gonna link that up

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Speaker 1: and make it super cheap. Yeah. Why visit other planets

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Speaker 1: when you can just order a little bit of him online? Hi,

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Speaker 1: am or Hey, I'm a cartoonist and the creator of

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Speaker 1: PhD Comics. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and I

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Speaker 1: would love to have a little bit of Jupiter delivered

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Speaker 1: to my house. Really, isn't Jupiter mostly gas? So you

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Speaker 1: just wanted like a canister or just to like release

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Speaker 1: it in your home, to know that you breathe it

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Speaker 1: in a little bit of Jupiter. Well, you know, Jupiter

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Speaker 1: is mostly gas, but some of that gas is in

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Speaker 1: a really weird state, like metallic hydrogen. And that makes

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Speaker 1: me really curious. I really want to see what metallic

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Speaker 1: hydrogen looks like. It doesn't need to be like super

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Speaker 1: under pressure. Hey, these are all engineering details. I just

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Speaker 1: want the metallic hydrogen or to my house. I'm just

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Speaker 1: clicking and waiting. I want a little bit of that

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Speaker 1: gas from the red eye of Jupiter, like it is

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Speaker 1: the gas. Also read what's going on there? I think

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Speaker 1: we did a whole podcast episode on that one, like

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Speaker 1: I should listen to it. But welcome to said podcast.

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Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio in which we let you stay at home

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Speaker 1: and order in information about the whole universe delivered to

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Speaker 1: your ears without any effort on your part. We talk

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Speaker 1: about things in the universe that are super far away.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the tiny particles that are swimming inside

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Speaker 1: your body. We talk about everything and anything, and we

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Speaker 1: try to explain all of it to you. That's right.

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Speaker 1: We try to bring the universe and the cosmos and

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Speaker 1: everything in between to your brain free of charge, because

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Speaker 1: wondering belongs to everybody, and the questions that you have

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Speaker 1: about space and physics and the universe are the questions

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Speaker 1: that everybody has, and the same questions that scientists want

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Speaker 1: answers to, because we're all still learning about the universe,

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Speaker 1: and part of that learning is exploring, is going out

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Speaker 1: into the cosmos, into other planets, into the stars, and

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Speaker 1: figuring out what's going on and what is there for

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Speaker 1: us to discover. And sometimes it's so depressing to think

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Speaker 1: that we've explored such a tiny little fraction of our universe.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've barely gotten off this planet to explore

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Speaker 1: the Moon, to land a few rovers on Mars. It's incredible,

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Speaker 1: what a tiny little dot of the universe we have

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Speaker 1: been able to explore so far. But what a dot

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Speaker 1: it is. It's a pretty cool dot, and we're lucky

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Speaker 1: that there is something to explore. I mean, right in

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Speaker 1: our neighborhood, right next door, there's an amazing planet, Mars,

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Speaker 1: that really has a lot of tantalizing and fascinating scientific question. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Mars is awesome, and so we'd like to know a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about what is there on Mars. I

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Speaker 1: mean we can see it, but so far we haven't

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Speaker 1: been able to really, I don't know, study it up close.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty hard because it's so far away. And all

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Speaker 1: we've been able to do so far is send our

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Speaker 1: robots there and have them do science. But that's sort

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Speaker 1: of like trying to do science with a ten foot

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Speaker 1: poll or a ten million mile long pole, and that's

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Speaker 1: not easy to do. That's kind of a philosophical question,

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Speaker 1: isn't it, Daniel, Like if you send a robot out

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Speaker 1: to explore something, have you explored it technically? Like if

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Speaker 1: the robot touches Mars, did you touch Mars? That humans

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Speaker 1: touch Mars? Yeah, I mean if you have a robotic hand,

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Speaker 1: you consider it part of yourself. If you touch something

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Speaker 1: with that hand, then it's part of you. And so

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Speaker 1: this is just like a spatially disconnected prosthetic, right, think

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Speaker 1: about the rovers as part of your body. Then. Yeah, philosophically,

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Speaker 1: I've been on Mars. I wonder if the Mars were

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Speaker 1: over would disagree. When he gets to the point that

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Speaker 1: it can disagree, it's no longer part of your body.

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Speaker 1: It has its own Twitter account. Do you know that

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Speaker 1: the Mars rover has its own Twitter account? It has

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Speaker 1: more followers than I do. Yeah, but did get off

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Speaker 1: its couch, Daniel, And actually, you know went somewhere. It

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Speaker 1: has accomplished more in its life than I ever will.

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Speaker 1: That's true. But yeah, we'd love to know more about

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Speaker 1: Mars and whether or not it had life on it,

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Speaker 1: like bacteria or who knows what else we could discover

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Speaker 1: that Mars had, but it's really hard to do it

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Speaker 1: from here, and even to do it through robots. It

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Speaker 1: is challenging, and it's amazing to me how open this

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Speaker 1: question remains. You know, through history we thought, oh, maybe

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Speaker 1: Mars has life on it. Then we took a closer look,

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Speaker 1: where like, actually it looks pretty dry. They're like, wait, no,

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Speaker 1: there is water on there. Maybe there are microbes, and

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Speaker 1: so keep going up and down, and it's fascinating to

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Speaker 1: me that this planet, this one that the closest to us.

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Speaker 1: We still don't know the answer. If there is life

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Speaker 1: on Mars, is it's similar to Earth? Did it come

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Speaker 1: to Earth from Mars, or to Mars from Earth, or

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Speaker 1: to both planets from somewhere else. It's an incredibly important question,

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Speaker 1: and it's right there, it's so accessible. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: huge question, right, But they're not Life on Earth actually

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Speaker 1: started on Mars. Because it's possible that there was life

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Speaker 1: on Mars and then got knocked off on an asteroid

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Speaker 1: and then flew here and landed on Earth, and that's

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Speaker 1: how life started Earth. That's a theory, right, That is

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Speaker 1: a theory, and it's not just the plot of a

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Speaker 1: science fiction novel. It's potentially actually plausible, and it's a

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Speaker 1: kind of question that we could answer if we had

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Speaker 1: deeper access to rocks on Mars. Right, we could all

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Speaker 1: be Martians. Martians could all be Earthlings. Who knows, we

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Speaker 1: could all be Jovians. Yeah, but it'd be great to

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Speaker 1: answer that question. And I think the only way we're

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Speaker 1: going to answer that question is to actually go there

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Speaker 1: and take a close look at the rocks and the

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Speaker 1: soil and to like actually like take a super microscope

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Speaker 1: to it and see if we see any little critters

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Speaker 1: in there. That's right, But sending scientists to Mars is

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Speaker 1: unfortunately still many many years away, decades probably if ever.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard, but we've done it with some things

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Speaker 1: in space, like for example, we've gone to the Moon

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Speaker 1: and gone and rock from the Moon and brought them

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Speaker 1: back to Earth. I think you can order them online, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't think you can order them online. No, you can. Can.

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Speaker 1: You get on eBay and like a bid on a

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Speaker 1: piece of moon rock. I think anything you buy on

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Speaker 1: eBay is not going to be actually moon rocks, so

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Speaker 1: please don't waste your money. But we did actually bring

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Speaker 1: rocks back from the Moon, and those rocks have been

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Speaker 1: an incredible treasure trove of science. Were like still thinking

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Speaker 1: of new things to do to those rocks, to learn things,

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Speaker 1: to figure out answers to new questions about the science

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Speaker 1: of the Moon. So it's incredibly valuable to have here

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Speaker 1: in our Earth laboratories a sample from the Moon or

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Speaker 1: from somewhere else. Yeah. I have actually held in moon rock.

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Speaker 1: I was at JPO of visiting ones and they let

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Speaker 1: me hold a little bit of moon dust, And did

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Speaker 1: you feel transported? I accidentally breedd them in and sneeze

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Speaker 1: had to go in there for a second. That sounds

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Speaker 1: like the opening scene of a terrible science fiction novel.

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Speaker 1: Or he gets infected by a Moon based pathoge and

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Speaker 1: that's why I have superpowers. You gained the Moon's proportional

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Speaker 1: strength again, the ambility to moon people. You cause tides. Right,

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Speaker 1: you'd be a some sort of lunar superhuman. That's right.

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Speaker 1: I'm like the villain in the next Appman movie. That's right,

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Speaker 1: You're like the DC version of Magneto. Right, you insulted

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Speaker 1: me twice over there. You just confuse the DC character

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Speaker 1: with the Marvel character. No, I'm trying to bring one

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Speaker 1: from the other, right, Like Magneto controls medals, and so

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Speaker 1: lunar Jorge controls tides right in the DC universe. But anyways,

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Speaker 1: so the question is, can we just go to Mars,

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Speaker 1: pick up some rocks and bring them back and then

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Speaker 1: study them, and then we would know if life potentially

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Speaker 1: came from another planet. That would be incredible. And so

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Speaker 1: to be on the program, we'll be asking the question,

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Speaker 1: can we bring rocks back from Mars? Or more optimistically,

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Speaker 1: how can we bring rocks back from Mars? Oh, so

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Speaker 1: you're feeling good. You feel like it's not an if question,

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Speaker 1: it's not a physics question, right, there's nothing in physics

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Speaker 1: that prevents us from moving rocks from Mars to Earth.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely an engineering question, and as you'll hear, it's

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Speaker 1: a tricky one. So, as usually, we were wondering how

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Speaker 1: many people out there had thought about this question or

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Speaker 1: wonder whether or not it's possible to bring something back

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Speaker 1: from Mars. So Daniel and out there into the wilds

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Speaker 1: of the Internet to ask people how can we retrieve

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Speaker 1: rocks from Mars to study them on Earth. So these

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Speaker 1: are the answers I got from random folks on the

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Speaker 1: Internet who were willing to speculate baselessly without any googling

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Speaker 1: about the questions. I asked them, if you'd like to

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Speaker 1: participate and hear your voice on the podcast at some

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Speaker 1: point in the future, please write to us two questions

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Speaker 1: at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Here's what people had

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Speaker 1: to say. I think that we should send a rocket

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Speaker 1: to Mars, and then maybe the Mars wherever the acrono

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Speaker 1: Mars should take the rock samples and put them inside

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Speaker 1: the rocket, and then we could somehow program the rocket

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Speaker 1: to fly back on its own. Perseverance is on his

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Speaker 1: way there right now, and hopefully the next generation of

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Speaker 1: Perseverances will be able to bring them back to study.

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Speaker 1: I thought that that was part of the upcoming Mars mission,

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Speaker 1: or maybe for the next mission to have some sort

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Speaker 1: of return capsule. It's really difficult to get things back

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Speaker 1: from Mars, so I imagine that probably have to send

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Speaker 1: some sort of probe there that would then have to

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Speaker 1: do a lot of the analysis they're on Mars. I

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Speaker 1: think the new Perseverance wherever you can actually collect unstored

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Speaker 1: Mars rocks for a future mission to achieve and bring

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Speaker 1: back to Earth. I'm envisioning maybe we send something to

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Speaker 1: like enter into Mars's orbit that can maybe send down

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Speaker 1: an explosive heads the surface, sends out a bunch of particulates.

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Speaker 1: The probe gathers these particulates and then breaks out of

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Speaker 1: the orbit goes back to Earth. We can gather samples

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Speaker 1: from Mars for study on Earth, kind of how we

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Speaker 1: went to the Moon, except all robotically right, and instead

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Speaker 1: of a lamb, we have a mam. Well, I know

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Speaker 1: we already have a mission going there, and I believe

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Speaker 1: what they're going to do is h do little core

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Speaker 1: samples and then somehow package them and leave them for

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Speaker 1: a recovery mission. Al Right, a lot of excitement about

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Speaker 1: this idea. I feel, yeah, a lot of excitement. People

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Speaker 1: are like, I don't know, but it sounds cool. Somebody

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Speaker 1: out there is like, let's just nuke Mars, and I

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Speaker 1: have the feeling they were just waiting for the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Is that a fellow physicist? I feel like that sounds

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Speaker 1: like an efficient solution to a physicist. You don't think

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Speaker 1: an engineer would be like, let's just shoot a string

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Speaker 1: of nuclear weapons at this thing to guide it back

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Speaker 1: to Earth. I think you mean a freshman engineer would

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Speaker 1: be like, maybe there's a better way, that's right, and

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Speaker 1: also would probably destroy the samples and pollute them with radiation,

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Speaker 1: so it might undermine the very science that we're trying

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Speaker 1: to do. Right, that's probably a huge part of it, right,

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Speaker 1: like not contaminating. Oh yeah, that's a big deal. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: let's dig into this topic. Let's get some samples of

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Speaker 1: it and retreat it and bring it to Earth. So Daniel,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I guess talk about why we would

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Speaker 1: want to get rocks from Mars. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: that it would be great to study them, but you know,

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Speaker 1: why can't we just study them there. Well, we can

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Speaker 1: do a lot of studying on the surface of Mars,

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Speaker 1: and we have rovers that do that, but it's tricky.

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Speaker 1: You want to do some science on a rover, you

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Speaker 1: have to pick an instrument which can survive like launch

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Speaker 1: and transit and landing on Mars, and then can get

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Speaker 1: set up automatically without any like a grad students tinkering

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Speaker 1: with it. You know, every cutting edge lab that I'm

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Speaker 1: aware of here on Earth, the most powerful instruments are

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Speaker 1: delicate instruments, and they require like experts tweaking them and

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Speaker 1: massaging them to make them work and to calibrate them.

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Speaker 1: So for something to work on a rover has to

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Speaker 1: be really robust, and that really limits the kinds of

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Speaker 1: signs that you can do. Yeah, I guess you need

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Speaker 1: a lab. And it's tricky to handle these samples and

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Speaker 1: to do the the signs, right, that's right. If you

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Speaker 1: had your hands on Martian samples like right now, there's

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Speaker 1: like a hundred things you would want to do to

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Speaker 1: it right away, but only a few of those ever

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Speaker 1: make it onto a rover, so you're really limited. And

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Speaker 1: then you get the answers back, you're like, oh, look

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Speaker 1: it has this weird thing in it. Now I want

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Speaker 1: to check with my other funky instrument. But you can't

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Speaker 1: do that kind of thing all in advance. When you

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Speaker 1: send your rover over, you have to plan very far

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Speaker 1: in advance exactly what you're gonna do to every sample.

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Speaker 1: You can't respond to what you've learned with new ideas,

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Speaker 1: whereas if you bring the rocks back, then you can

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Speaker 1: keep coming up with new ideas. And also you have

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Speaker 1: access to future instruments. Right, cool techniques we're going to

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Speaker 1: develop in ten years or in twenty years that we

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Speaker 1: haven't even thought of. Now we have the rocks here,

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Speaker 1: rather than sending the machines there, then we can use

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Speaker 1: new machines on old rocks, right, Because I guess it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's really hard to take stuff to Mars, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like every gram cost like a million dollars

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Speaker 1: or something, and these lab equipment machines are really big.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they are really big, and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: engineering challenges of building a rover or how to miniaturize, right,

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Speaker 1: how to make these things really small. It's got to

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Speaker 1: be like the size of a shoe box and fit

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Speaker 1: on the edge of a stick and be totally robust,

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Speaker 1: Like you have to just be able to send it

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Speaker 1: one command and it boots up and starts up. It's

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Speaker 1: gonna have a little bit of AI in there to

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Speaker 1: get itself going. Right. You can't just like crawl out

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Speaker 1: there with your screw driver and fix it right once

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Speaker 1: you send it, it's gone. You can't just call I

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Speaker 1: T to fix it, and they'll say, have you tried

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Speaker 1: turning it off and turning it on again? Did you

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Speaker 1: update your Windows installation like I can. It's on Mars.

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Speaker 1: I can't even turn it on enough. No, And you

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Speaker 1: can't even like drive something on Mars. Remember these rovers

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Speaker 1: operate semi autonomously because Mars is so far away that

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Speaker 1: it takes light minutes to get there. So you can't

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Speaker 1: have the kind of feedback loop you need to real

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Speaker 1: time drive something on Mars. It's like you drive forward,

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Speaker 1: you stop, you take a picture, you send it back

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Speaker 1: to the folks in NASA. They figure out what to

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Speaker 1: do next. And so having it be so far away

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Speaker 1: makes it really limited. It has to survive a trip

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Speaker 1: to Like launching from the Earth into space is not easy, right,

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Speaker 1: Like there's huge forces and you know you're basically strapped

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Speaker 1: onto a giant explosion. It has to survive that. And

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Speaker 1: also the landing on Mars, which can be pretty tough,

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Speaker 1: like sometimes they just fall into the ground and bounce around,

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Speaker 1: and it has to survive that. That's the landing strategy.

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Speaker 1: That's the design strategy, right. I mean, remember all those

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Speaker 1: movies about astronaut training, Like they put those folks through

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Speaker 1: some tough stuff. They spin around, they shake them a lot. Basically,

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Speaker 1: take your most sensitive science instruments and put them through

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Speaker 1: astronaut training to see if they have the right stuff.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time, it's just gonna fall apart. Like

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Speaker 1: you go into a random geology or microbiology lab here

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Speaker 1: on Earth. Most of those instruments are very delicate. They

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Speaker 1: don't let people in there poking and products. So you're right,

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Speaker 1: surviving all the shaking and the landing and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy. So this whole categories of instruments, nobody

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Speaker 1: has figured out how to miniaturize and make robust enough

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Speaker 1: to send to Mars. Okay, so it would be a

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Speaker 1: lot better for science if we could bring some Mars

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Speaker 1: rocks back so we can study them, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you can do a whole bunch more tescent. You could

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Speaker 1: on a robot in Mars, but it's really hard and

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Speaker 1: apparently it can't just study meteors from Mars. Like that's

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Speaker 1: another possibility, but it's not, as I guess. Fresh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the amazing thing is that we actually already have Mars rocks, right,

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Speaker 1: like what yeah, what you were talking about sort of

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Speaker 1: as a joke, actually happens. Sometimes big rocks hit the

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Speaker 1: surface of Mars right impact creators and stuff gets thrown

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Speaker 1: out into space. You know, this can be really big

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Speaker 1: impacts and some of those rocks get tossed out into

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Speaker 1: space and eventually a small fraction of them hit the

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Speaker 1: surface of the Earth and then are recovered. And how

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Speaker 1: do we know they're from Mars? So they had like

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Speaker 1: a maide in Mars tag or well they went through customs, right,

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Speaker 1: and so we can tell they just look at the

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Speaker 1: forms they I mean, can you tell, like does it

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Speaker 1: have a special like queue of red or something? You

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Speaker 1: can tell because of the geology, every object in the

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Speaker 1: Solar System has a different history and a different composition

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Speaker 1: and that tells you where it comes from. And so

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Speaker 1: when you get a meteor from outer space, when you've

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Speaker 1: got a chunk of space rock. First of all, you

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Speaker 1: can tell it the space rock because of what it's

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Speaker 1: made out of. It's made of stuff you don't find

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Speaker 1: on Earth. And then you can tell roughly where it

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Speaker 1: came from based on the details of what's in it.

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Speaker 1: And so most of the rocks that land on Earth come,

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Speaker 1: for example, from the asteroid Belt, and we can tell

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Speaker 1: based on the blend of metals and also the organization

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Speaker 1: of the metals in them that tells you something about

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Speaker 1: its history, like when it was last melted and how

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Speaker 1: long it's been frozen for. And some of these things

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Speaker 1: have composition and geology that's only consistent with the surface

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Speaker 1: of Mars. Interesting. So, yeah, we have like dozens of

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Speaker 1: these objects that have landed on the Earth from Mars,

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Speaker 1: which is fascinating and incredible and wonderful opportunities to do science.

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Speaker 1: But it's not good enough, right, Yeah, you need like

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Speaker 1: fresh rocks, Like those asteroids are kind of stale. They've

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Speaker 1: been floating around face and who knows where they came from.

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Speaker 1: It's not just that you need fresh rocks, it's that

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Speaker 1: you need to know where they came from, Like it's

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Speaker 1: just a random sample. You don't know where on Mars

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Speaker 1: it came from, so you can't really like fit it

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Speaker 1: into your science picture of what's going on on Mars.

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Speaker 1: Which you'd like is to have a rover travel around

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Speaker 1: and make judicious decisions and say, I'm gonna get a

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Speaker 1: little bit of this kind of rock, and I see

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Speaker 1: where it is. It's on the downflow of a slope.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get that piece of rock over there, and

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Speaker 1: I know the scientific context. It's sort of just like

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Speaker 1: getting a piece of pottery and having no idea where

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Speaker 1: it was dug up from. It's much less valuable scientifically.

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Speaker 1: It's also kind of like when you go to a

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Speaker 1: Las Vegas bouffet. You know you want judiciously pick a

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Speaker 1: little bit from everything and know where you got it from,

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Speaker 1: so you can go back and get the stuff you liked.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and so you know what made you throw

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Speaker 1: up and what you yeah, yeah, alright. So it sounds

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Speaker 1: like it would be a lot better if we can

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Speaker 1: get go to Mars, get some rocks, bring them back,

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Speaker 1: and then study the heck out of him to answer

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Speaker 1: these big questions about life in the Solar System and

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Speaker 1: about Mars and the history of Mars. But it's a

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Speaker 1: tough problem, and so let's talk about how we would

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Speaker 1: actually do that and what has been and is being

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Speaker 1: done to do it. But first let's take a quick break,

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Speaker 1: all right, Daniel, we are souvenir shopping in the Solar System.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to get some original, authentic rocks from Mars.

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Speaker 1: But it's a tough problem because Mars is really far away,

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Speaker 1: and you don't just have to get the rocks. You

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Speaker 1: have to come back with them. You've got to come

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Speaker 1: back with the rocks. Right, Like we've done the one

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Speaker 1: way thing. We've sent something to Mars and it's dug

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Speaker 1: up rocks and studied them, but they're still on the

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Speaker 1: surface of Mars, and so now we need to do

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Speaker 1: the second bit, the round trip, to come home and

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Speaker 1: deliver them to scientists in a pristine condition, so that

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Speaker 1: we can finally answer some of these incredible, longstanding science questions. Right,

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Speaker 1: And I feel like the problem is it's not just double,

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Speaker 1: it's like squared, because you know, it's hard enough to

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Speaker 1: take off from a planet and land on another planet,

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Speaker 1: but now you're gonna do it again, take off from

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Speaker 1: there and land here. But it still has to be

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Speaker 1: the same machine that you send out, like the same

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Speaker 1: machine you send out has to do both of those things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's complicated, and it's not just squared as you're gonna hear.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of moving parts. It's more like to

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Speaker 1: the ninth power or something. It's pretty ridiculous little dance

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Speaker 1: of machines that we have to get working all together

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Speaker 1: to get those rocks back from Mars. And you know

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Speaker 1: what you just said, Nobody has ever done that before.

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Speaker 1: We've never successfully launched a rocket from the surface of

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Speaker 1: another planet. Right, Well, we've done it for the Moon,

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Speaker 1: but the Moon is kind of easy to take off from.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The Moon is pretty low gravity, and it's

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Speaker 1: not a planet, and it's not remote, right, there's somebody

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Speaker 1: in there driving that thing. So now we have to

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Speaker 1: remotely launch from the service of another planet. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's hard enough to do from Earth. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a big challenge. Luckily you volunteered to go tomorrows right now.

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Speaker 1: I volunteered to press the big red button. When the

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Speaker 1: time comes, Oh yeah, first to take off, to take

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Speaker 1: a button or the Abordan whatever. Man just put a

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Speaker 1: big red button in front of me and I will

411
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Speaker 1: hit it. That's my job. That's how these podcasts get started.

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Speaker 1: You hit a big red button. Hey, you don't get

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Speaker 1: to live your dream if you don't ask for it.

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Speaker 1: So this is my official request to get invited to

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Speaker 1: press the big red button NASA button pusher. All right,

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00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: but you've actually tried before, Like, this is not a

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Speaker 1: crazy idea that you and I just came up with

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Speaker 1: here on the podcast. The US the Soviets have been

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Speaker 1: trying to do this for really like fifty years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they've been trying and failing. But the failures have

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Speaker 1: been political and financial. It's not like we've sent a

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Speaker 1: mission that's attempted to do this and then not succeeded.

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Speaker 1: The mission has been thought up and planned and organized

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Speaker 1: and then canceled many times in the past. The Soviets

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Speaker 1: thought about in the seventies, but they couldn't get their

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Speaker 1: rockets to work. NASA had a plan in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: nine that was canceled because it was too complicated. And

428
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: then recently NASA and the European Space Agency had a

429
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 1: plan that was in twenty twelve that people thought was

430
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: going to happen, but then it was aborted again because

431
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 1: it was too complicated and too expensive. This cancel culture

432
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 1: is out of hand. Daniel, Yeah, and I think that

433
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: especially was really traumatic for the sort of Mars science community.

434
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 1: People really believed that that one was going to be

435
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: the one. It was finally going to come to fruition.

436
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: So when that was canceled it was a bit like

437
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: the super Conducting super Collider was for particle physics. It

438
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: left a bit of like PTSD on the community. There

439
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: a little bit more cynicism than there was before. So

440
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: it sounds like people get excited about it, they start

441
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: the program, but then they realize it's too hard, so

442
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: they cancel. It is that, and it's happened over and over.

443
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a political problem though, because

444
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 1: it's one of these projects that takes years or decades

445
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 1: to pull off. So even if you're committed to spending

446
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 1: a lot of money over many years, you need all

447
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 1: the people who are in charge after you to stay

448
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: committed to not have their priorities changed, and so it

449
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: takes consistent support over many, many years for this kind

450
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: of thing to actually happen. All right, So there was

451
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: a big program at NASA that got canceled in twelve

452
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: but now now it's sort of been revived. Right now,

453
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: there is some activity at NASA to actually do this.

454
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: That's right, it has been revived. There's a new plan,

455
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: and it's a pretty reasonable plan in comparison with the

456
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: other crazy plans, although I think you'll still find it

457
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 1: fairly absurd and amazing. This is the level headed conservative

458
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: This is the least ridiculous plan that we have going.

459
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: So how they pitched it to to Congress. We have

460
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: a new, less ridiculous plan. You guys are gonna love

461
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 1: it now, less crazy. And the most exciting part is

462
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: that the first part of it has already launched. Like

463
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: the first element of this multi stage plan to bring

464
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 1: rocks back from the service of Mars is already on

465
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: its way to the red plan. Wait, what is this

466
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: is already happening. It's already happening. They have a new

467
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: clever strategy, which is they break it up into pieces

468
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: and so they're easier to sell. And the first piece

469
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: works no matter what, Like, the first piece is something

470
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: you want to do, even if you're not going to

471
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 1: bring the rocks back. Oh, I see they're cleverer now

472
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: about the mission planning. Yeah, they're a little bit more cynical,

473
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: I guess you could say, or more experienced. And so

474
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 1: this first piece is a rover that launched on July's

475
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: the Perseverance Rover here, and it's a this year, yeah,

476
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago, and it's on the way

477
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: to Mars now. And it's an awesome piece of technology.

478
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: You may have heard about it. It's going to be

479
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: the heaviest rover ever landed on Mars. It's going to

480
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: have a little helicopter on the top of it that

481
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: can fly up the first helicopter operate on the surface

482
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: of Mars. That is so sci fi. Yeah, it's gonna

483
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: be really cool. It's have a little laser on it.

484
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: But most importantly, it's going to have a device that

485
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: can drill into the surface of Mars and extract cores,

486
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: which it can then store in a little sample container.

487
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: I feel like now we're getting to really transform or territory,

488
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, like we're sending a box and then when

489
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: the box lands, it's gonna transform into a drilling machine

490
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: with lasers and a helicopter. That's right, it's Optimist Prime.

491
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: That's what they should have called it. That's right. Forget

492
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: Perseverance or something inspiring. Just go with optimist prime. Yeah,

493
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: So this thing is going to have a year's long

494
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: mission and it's going to drive around and it's going

495
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: to collect like rock course from maybe thirty nine in

496
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: different locations. And each one is pretty small, you know,

497
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: they're like a centimeter wide and a few centimeters long.

498
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: But that's gold for scientists down here. To have a

499
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: few cubic centimeters of rock from several dozen locations around Mars,

500
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: it's incredibly valuable. So it is a rover like the

501
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: ones we've sent before, and it's going to run around

502
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: and collect samples and then keep them keep them in

503
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: like a box. So it's got its own science mission.

504
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: It's a good idea anyway, even if mar sample return

505
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. But then it's going to collect these rocks

506
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: and it's going to put them in a little sample

507
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: container and then it's going to leave them on the

508
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 1: surface of Mars for the next stage to come and retrieve.

509
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: Wait what it's going to be littering. It's going to

510
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: be preparing a gift for us. Man, it's not trash,

511
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: but why not collect them? But it's gonna really leave

512
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: them out where it would find them. Yeah, it's going

513
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: to steal up in tubes and then it's going to

514
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 1: leave it out where the next mission can come and

515
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: collect it. But why not bring them all together so

516
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: that it's easier to pick up. No, it's going to

517
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: collect them all into one container. Oh, I see, and

518
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: then leaves the container there, sees it all nice, and

519
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: then the next stage is going to come and pick

520
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: it up. And so if you're keeping track, there's three

521
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: major stages to this mission. Stage one is perseverance. Go

522
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: and create the samples, pack them up in the container,

523
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: leave it on the surface. It's also going to study them,

524
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: but also going to leave them there. Okay. The next

525
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: stage is to get it off the surface of Mars,

526
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: all right, And each of these is like a different mission.

527
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: It's kind of I think that's when you're saying, like,

528
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: don't put it all in one mission that could fail,

529
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: but do one mission and if that one succeeds, then

530
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: do the next mission, and that one succeeds to the

531
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: next mission. Yes, So there's three separate launches from Earth,

532
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: Like we're sending three different devices from Earth. They're all

533
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: going to work together to make this happen. Three different transformers.

534
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: The first one lands on the service and makes these samples.

535
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: The next one is I think maybe the craziest, and

536
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: it's the one that's going to land on the surface

537
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: of Mars and then it's going to deploy a mini rover,

538
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: like a little rover that just runs out, picks up

539
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: the sample container, comes back, loads that into a rocket

540
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: that it has landed on the surface of Mars, wraps

541
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: out all up, and then launches from the surface of Mars,

542
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: sends the sample container up into space. So on a

543
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: rocket will be sending another rocket and a launching pad,

544
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: and a launching pad and a little tiny retriever robot

545
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: and a mini rover. Yeah, exactly. So the job of

546
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: this thing is to land there, pick up the sample

547
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: container and it has a robotic arm that will take

548
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: it from the rover and put it into the rocket

549
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: and then yeah, remote launch from the surface of another planet.

550
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: Maybe the most valuable sample ever to be collected. This

551
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: feels kind of comical to me, like, you know, like

552
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: this giant machine lands, opens up up, there's another rocket

553
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: in there. This little robot comes out, picks up something,

554
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: runs back, sticks it in the rocket, and then just

555
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: launches back somehow that it feels comedic, something like something

556
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: out of a cartoon. It does seem a little Looney Tunes. Yeah,

557
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: you're right, and if this thing works, it definitely needs

558
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: that sort of like comedic music in the background to inspire.

559
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: You know, it'll be pretty funny. But this is not

560
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: set to go for another five years or so, So

561
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about launching this next bit in six So wait,

562
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: so there must be working on it now, like it's

563
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: being built right now. It's being built right now, So

564
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: Perseverance will have years on the surface of Mars to

565
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: collect these samples. And also we'll have an idea like

566
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: how did that go right, how well are things going?

567
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: We could change our plan based on where Perseverance is

568
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: or how things go for Perseverance, or what it learns,

569
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: or how the sample container looks um and so that's

570
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: another part of it. You build in these delays so

571
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: you can change your plans as things develop. So, yeah,

572
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: they're working on that now and they will launch it

573
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,959
Speaker 1: in and the ideas they would arrive on the surface

574
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: of Mars in twenty twenty eight. Remember it's a two

575
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: year trip, and then grab it and launch it out

576
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: into space. But it only has the power to get

577
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: it into orbit around Mars. It can't bring all the

578
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: way back to Earth. Oh, that's still just phase two.

579
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 1: That's just phase two, right, The actual looney Tunes crazy

580
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: comedic value comes in the next day. All right, let's say,

581
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: let's phase three. So phase three as we launch a

582
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: third rocket from Earth and this one at the same

583
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: time as we're launching the second one, but this one

584
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: just stays in orbit around Mars. This is called the

585
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: Earth return orbiter. So this one is a concurrent, like

586
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: we're not gonna wait for the second one to finish.

587
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna send two and three. It's like filming the

588
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: sequels at the same time. Yeah, exactly. So the third

589
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 1: one hangs at in orbit and it helps communicate and

590
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: do a bunch of stuff. And then it's most important

591
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: job is to catch the sample container. Because the surface

592
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,479
Speaker 1: rocket is going to launch from the surface of Mars

593
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: and get out near orbit. Right, it can't go all

594
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: the way out actually out into space, and the one

595
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: that's in orbit has to lower itself down to lower orbit.

596
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: And then they're going to pass the sample container from

597
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: one rocket to the orbiter. Robots are going to do this.

598
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: Robots are going to do this in space, you know,

599
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: Sending Daniel is starting to seem a lot easier, I know.

600
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: And the sample container it has no like radio beacon,

601
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: has no tracker on it has no transmitter, has no thrusters,

602
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: is just an inert white ball and the orbiter just

603
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: has to catch it. Doesn't have like a GPS on

604
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: it even or it's just white. They're like, let's make

605
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: it white then you can see it in space. Right. Wow,

606
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: that is audacious to say the least. But I guess

607
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: my question is why can't the rocket just go straight

608
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: into orbit? You can't put in a fuel on it

609
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: or something or what. That definitely takes a lot more

610
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: power to get all the way into orbit. And so yeah,

611
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: I mean you have to launch this thing from Earth

612
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: and then send it to Mars. And so there's a

613
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: lot of risks and costs here that they're trying to balance.

614
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: And this was what they decided was the least crazy plan.

615
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: I guess it would be a lot to like land

616
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: a rocket that can make it all the way back

617
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: to Earth. I guess this is smartyr to like, you know,

618
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: make this rocket smaller and then save the spaceship part

619
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: of it for another phase. Yeah, and now the part

620
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: the orbiter only ever has to live in space. It

621
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: doesn't have to go down to the surface. So you

622
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: have one thing that's dedicated to going down to the surface,

623
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: it's good at that, and another thing that's dedicated at

624
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: orbiting Mars, catching this soccer ball with the most valuable

625
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: cargo humans have ever created, and then flying on its

626
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: own all the way back to Earth. It sounds like,

627
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like a whole bunch of robots

628
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: that together make one big robot. Yeah, it's a bit

629
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: of a Rube Goldberg machine. Right. They should have called

630
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: this the Rube Goldberg Mars Mission. It's pretty hilarious. All right. Well,

631
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: let's get into what happens next phase three, but first

632
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. All right, Daniel, we are

633
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: talking about transformers in Mars and robots that we're gonna

634
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: send there and work together on their own to land

635
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: on Mars, get some rocks, shoot them back up into space,

636
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: hand it off, and then bring it back. So that's

637
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: phase three, is bringing the samples from Mars. Fact, that's right,

638
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: that's phase three. So it has to catch this soccer

639
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: ball in orbit around Mars. Right, it like opens a

640
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: door on the side of the ship and the ball

641
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: just like drifts in because remember the ball is not powered,

642
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: so it just has to like match it in orbital

643
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: speed and get in front of it and then slow

644
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: down a little bit and just sort of like mate

645
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: with this thing. Yeah, it's gonna catch it. It's gonna

646
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: catch it, and it has to then keep it somehow sterile.

647
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: It can't like let the sample contain or anything that

648
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: was on it infect the rest of the ship. Oh

649
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: I see. It had to catch it and isolated, catch

650
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: it and isolated fly it all the way back to Earth. Right,

651
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: that's not that big a deal. You just had sort

652
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: of point in the right direction and have enough power left.

653
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: And then it has to drop it off on Earth. Wow,

654
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna drop it off or it's gonna land.

655
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: It's not gonna land here on Earth. It's just going

656
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: to drop it off, and the sample container is essentially

657
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: just gonna fall to the surface. They were like, should

658
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: we add parachutes or something to slow it down? But

659
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: that seemed too complicated. They're like, no, can't you just

660
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: call like uber to pick it up or build a

661
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: huge catcher's mit or something. Well, why not build another

662
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: robot to go up there and catch it? Why not? Well,

663
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: they thought this was simplest, and you know, they already

664
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: used up their quota of crazy robots on this mission.

665
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: So they're just gonna toss it into what the ocean. No,

666
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: it's gonna land on the surface and land around ninety

667
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: miles per hour on the surface, and it's not going

668
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: to explode or vaporize. It's not going to vaporize that.

669
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: It should be able to survive that. And you know,

670
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: the samples themselves shouldn't be that delicate, right, It's not

671
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: like they're glass containers or you know, anything that's gonna break.

672
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: It's just rocks were bringing back. I thought they were

673
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: going to be on like, you know, test tubes, but

674
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: I guess you want something would have been more sturdy. Yeah,

675
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: But the question is like can we keep it safe

676
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: and contained? We're basically shipping a chunk of mars onto

677
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: the surface of the Earth, and we want to isolate

678
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: it so that we can study it for well a

679
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: couple of reasons. One is like who knows what's in

680
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: that thing? And if there really is like weird life

681
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: on Mars. The last thing we want to do is

682
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: like eradicate all life on Earth because we imported some pathogen.

683
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: Didn't wrap it into plastic bag. First, I've seen that movie.

684
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: It's pretty good unless you're living it. But the other

685
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: thing is we want to keep it sterile so that

686
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: if we do, like find weird bugs in it that

687
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: are similar to bugs on Earth, we want to know

688
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: they came from Mars and not from like the Utah

689
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: Desert where it landed. Wow. Well, this seems like a

690
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: super audacious and amazing and incredible plan. And Daniel, you

691
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: actually got to talk to somebody who works on this

692
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: so ready from NASA. Yeah, there's incredible excitement in the

693
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: community for this project. People are hoping beyond hope that

694
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: they'll get that get their hands on some of these rocks.

695
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: So I reached out to Dr Nina Lanza. She's a

696
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: Mars rover instrument scientist. She built some of the things

697
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,919
Speaker 1: that are going on Perseverance right now, and I asked

698
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: her a bunch of fun questions about this project. Yeah,

699
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: it's a great interview, so we'll play that for you

700
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: right now. So here's Daniel talking to Dr Nina Lanzon

701
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: Mars Rover instrument scientist. So it's my pleasure to be

702
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: talking to Dr Nina Lanza Um. Would you introduce yourself

703
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: for our listeners. Sure, I'm Nina lanza I work at

704
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: Los Alamos National Laboratory and I'm a planetary scientist. Awesome,

705
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: And so our question today are mostly about getting your

706
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: hands on samples from Mars or the signs you can

707
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: do with stuff on Mars. So my first question has

708
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: to do with the rovers that we have over there

709
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: and that we're sending over there. What do you think

710
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: of the most important scientific stens that those instruments on

711
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: the rovers are asking? Well, it's important to remember that

712
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: each of these missions had a different goal and they

713
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: would they build on each other. Right, So, when we

714
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: first started sending rovers to Mars um and and even Landers,

715
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: you know, we didn't know a lot. We know a

716
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: lot more after all the missions we've done. So initial

717
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: missions were just to figure out, you know, what's on Mars,

718
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: what's it like? And subsequent missions have been trying to

719
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: find out the details of that. What has the history

720
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: of Mars been like, you know, in terms of climate,

721
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: in terms of geology. Now we're asking questions about habitability,

722
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 1: is or was the Martian environment habitable in a way

723
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: that we understand. So habitability is not looking for life,

724
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: but rather places where life as we understand it, could exist.

725
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: And so now after our most recent missions, you know,

726
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: we feel really confident that Mars was absolutely a habitable

727
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: place in the past, and it's kind of habitable now

728
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: for certain arestrial microbes um and so our next goal

729
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: is to find out whether or not life ever existed

730
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: in the past on Mars, and so that's really exciting.

731
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: So I think it's not that one of those questions

732
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: is more or less important. It's really that they are

733
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: building upon each other, and so are the questions that

734
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: are being asked by these rovers or instruments designed for

735
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 1: these rovers that are inspired specifically by things you learned

736
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: on previous generations, like we saw this and now we

737
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: have a follow up question. Oh certainly, gosh, And there's

738
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: so many examples of that. I mean, there are some

739
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: big questions. For example, we've seen from remote sensing these

740
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: huge mineral provinces, specifically clay minerals and carbonates, maybe less

741
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: huge on the carbonates, right, We've seen these from orbit,

742
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: and so the question is can we ground through this

743
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: and find this on Mars in a geologic context that

744
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: we can interpret. We've certainly found quite a bit of

745
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: clay on the surface with the curiosity rovers, so yeah, success,

746
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 1: But now we're looking for those pesky carbonates. Carbon rates

747
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: are predicted to have formed on Mars, but we've never

748
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: really encountered them in any kind of abundance, and so

749
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: it's one of these ongoing mysteries. And so as we

750
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: have moved forward looking at Mars and detail with curiosity,

751
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: we still haven't seen all that mighty carbon rates. So

752
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: it's still this question why not, And we're hoping to

753
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: answer that with the perseverance were over and its new

754
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: landing site, Geserro Crater. Cool. So, I know, when you

755
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: start a project, you have sort of like optimistic hopes

756
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 1: for what you know might happen, or fantasy is about

757
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: data you might collect or whatever. So if you let

758
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: your imagination run wild and you hit all the home runs,

759
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: it's like the best case scenario for what you could

760
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: discover using these rovers. Well, I think it would be

761
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: just incredible and paradigm shifting if we could find signs

762
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: that life existed somewhere not Earth. Right, we know there's

763
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: life on Earth, you know about how did it start?

764
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: We don't really understand a lot about our own origins,

765
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: and we don't know how common it is. Right now,

766
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: we only have one example of life on a planet,

767
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: and that's our planet. If we could find evidence of

768
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: life on a different planet, to be remarkable and incredible,

769
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: what would that look like in terms of the rovers

770
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: that we have now or the rovers that are in route,

771
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: what would that discovery look like? I mean, we're not

772
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: talking about little critters waving to the cameras, right, I mean,

773
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear that there is a macroscopic

774
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: life on Mars right there, trees, There's no dinosaurs. We

775
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: would have seen those things. So now the question is

776
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: microscopic life. Was it there? It isn't there? So those

777
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: are actually two different questions and we have to have

778
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: different approaches to answer those questions. Right. The Perseverance Rover

779
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: is looking for signs of past life and there's a

780
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: lot of ways to do that, and we use the

781
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: same techniques that we do on Earth. How do we

782
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: know when life began on Earth and what were the

783
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: signs that it left? So that's our best way of

784
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: analyzing Mars rocks to find out if there was life

785
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: in the past. I think our best bet, you know,

786
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: he's going to be bringing these samples back to Earth.

787
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: We have some incredible rovers and they're having great hayloads

788
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: of these instruments that just do great things, and they're

789
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 1: doing them remotely. It's just amazing what we can do.

790
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: But it doesn't compare to our gold standard instruments that

791
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: we have on the Earth, and so there are questions

792
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: that we can never answer with our current hayloads. So

793
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: we're going to need to just get that sample back

794
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: into the laboratory, take a look at it, and then

795
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: we'll probably want to do different analyzes. Right, we don't

796
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 1: know what we're going to see, and so we don't

797
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: know what the next steps will be. And that's the

798
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: excitement and the fun part about doing science like this

799
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: is that you can only predict the first few steps,

800
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: but it's the next steps are all dependent on what

801
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: you find. And why can't we just do those studies

802
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: on Martian meteors, you know, bits of Mars that have

803
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: been blasted off and landed here already. We're very lucky

804
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: that Mars has sent us about hundred and fifty pieces

805
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: of itself. So we didn't actually have to go to

806
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: Mars to get those pieces of Mars. So thank you Mars.

807
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: The problem with those meteorites, though, is that they don't

808
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: have any context. Right, they fell out of the sky.

809
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: We don't know where they came from on Mars. It's

810
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: very hard to make statements about geology and a broad

811
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: sense if you only have a hand sample. Right. As

812
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: a geologist, people come to me all the time with

813
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: some random rocks. They're like, what's this. I'm like, well,

814
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: I could tell you some things, but you know, you

815
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: just picked that up off of the ground. Where did

816
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: it come from? What was the broader context? We need

817
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: that context to really be able to answer these questions

818
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: about Mars. That's why sample return is so exciting because

819
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: we know exactly where it came from. We have documented

820
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: that location very well, and so then when we get

821
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: results from that sample, we can then integrate that into

822
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: a larger context. That makes a lot of sense. And

823
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 1: so if there are creators alive on Mars and little

824
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: microubs and we sample them by chance and those samples

825
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: come back to Earth, they are we imagining that those

826
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: things could still be you know, alive and wiggling. We

827
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: measure like you know, metabolic activity in the sample that

828
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: returns to Earth from Mars. If there are things living

829
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: near the surface of Mars, they have got to be

830
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: amazing because the radiation environment on Mars is terrible. You know,

831
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: it's um Mars doesn't have a magnetic field because it

832
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: doesn't have a dynamo in its core, and so the

833
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 1: surface environment is just it's pretty icky for life. There's

834
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: a lot of life on Earth that could probably handle it,

835
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: but it's it's not that common. So so I would

836
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: say the chances of us finding extant Martians in the

837
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: near subsurface where we can access it with the rover,

838
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: it's very, very low. But we have to prepare for

839
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: that possibility. So one of the things that's really critical

840
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: that we do before our samples come back is to

841
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: prepare their housing facility. There are a few facilities on

842
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: Earth that already are ready for this. A notable one

843
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: is at Johnson Space Center, which is the main pository

844
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: for all the Apollo samples from the Moon. Because we

845
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: had the same questions about the Moon, you know, who

846
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: knows what's up there? And it turns out that the

847
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: Moon is a pretty sterile place which was out and

848
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: maybe that was easy to predict in in retrospect, but

849
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, we had no idea, so we had to

850
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: take really a lot of precautions to protect both the

851
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: samples and earth from each other. And so we'll have

852
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 1: to do the same for a MAR sample return mission.

853
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: And so we know from our experience with Apollo and

854
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: also just bioscience in general, you know the best methods

855
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: for doing that. And so I think that facilities are

856
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: going to either be constructed or old ones retrofitted to

857
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: be able to handle these new samples. Awesome. Well, I

858
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: hope that happens. I've been reading a little bit about

859
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: the history of these missions, and I note that you know,

860
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: MAR sample return has been discussed for decades and even

861
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: planned and then canceled and replanned and recanceled. Do you

862
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: think this latest plan by NASA and s A is

863
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: likely to actually happen or do you think the political

864
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: climate where we change administrations and government every few years

865
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: makes it difficult to pull off a long term product. Well,

866
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: it's certainly above my pay grade to make political predictions,

867
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: so I can't really speak to that, but um, it's true.

868
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: That these missions are really big, they require incredible amounts

869
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 1: of collaboration over long periods of time, and they require

870
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: quite a bit of funding. So that is what we

871
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: need the most. I don't think that anything is impossible

872
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: for us if we work together. I think that we've

873
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: really come up with a great plan that has a

874
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: high likelihood of success. The question is whether or not

875
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: we want to fund that, and that's not up to

876
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: to me as an individual. If it were would be

877
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: funded right now, but you know, we have to make

878
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: sure that this is aligned with our taxpayers desires. Um

879
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that go into that and

880
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: is this where we want to put our priorities. I

881
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: would note that NASA it's not funded at the levels

882
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: that most people think right when I like to play

883
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: this game like what percentage of the total US budget

884
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: is NASA getting and people are like twent and I'm

885
00:44:55,239 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: like that's great. I know, of like that would be amazing,

886
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: you know, but unfortunately, at its maximum, NASA has never

887
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: gotten more than one percent of the totally US budget.

888
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: It's much lower than that now, you know. So we

889
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: are doing all of this work with really very little funding,

890
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: which is amazing. We don't really need that much more

891
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: funding to make a sample return mission from Mars reality.

892
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: So that's that's what I would say. I would say,

893
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it feels like it's a little bit

894
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 1: of extra money now, but the I think the rewards

895
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: would be incredible and it would absolutely be worth the

896
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: price tag. I agree with you. I think it's incredible

897
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: when we have the capability to do something and the

898
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: only thing that limits us is the money. It's like,

899
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: you're at the universe is like knowledge shop, and you

900
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: could just buy this information about the universe and the

901
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 1: money is there, but they're spending it on aircraft carriers.

902
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: So we need those two, We need them all, We

903
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: need all the things, but we could just you know,

904
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: I think people think of it as more expensive than

905
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: it really is. It really is a bargain. What we

906
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: can do really is. So let's say this mission happens.

907
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: There are several parts to it which seemed a little

908
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: you know, of wracking. Bit's being transferred from one to

909
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: the other. Say this happens. Which part is the most

910
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: nail biting for you? Which is the moment where you're like,

911
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: you know, holding your breath hoping that it works. I

912
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 1: think for me, the most anxiety ridden part of any

913
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: mission is launching and landing. Those are the hardest parts

914
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: that we do. It's really hard to launch something off

915
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: of another planet and get it onto another planet safely.

916
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: And so you know, we've we've done this now for

917
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: many missions successfully, right, but we can never guarantee that

918
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: it's going to always work out well. I think we

919
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: have a good track record, but we're gonna be trying

920
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: to do some very different things with sample return that

921
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: we've never tried before, and that is we've got to

922
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: first get our rover perseverance to Mars. So we're already launching,

923
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: We've already launched off of Earth and now we're en

924
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: route to Mars. We're gonna land on Mars. Then that

925
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: rover has to gather samples, and then we're gonna launch

926
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: another spacecraft that's gonna get into orbit around Mars, and

927
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: then that spacecraft is going to launch a lander with

928
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: a little fete strover, and that rover is gonna pick

929
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 1: up our samples and then get back to this lander

930
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: and then launch off of Mars. This is all by itself,

931
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: by the way, no help from us. Then it's gonna

932
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: rendezvous with that orbiting spacecraft, and then that spacecraft is

933
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,479
Speaker 1: going to come back to Earth. That's very complicated. I

934
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: think we can absolutely do it. It's absolutely feasible, but

935
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: there's quite a bit of risk there, and especially because

936
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: we can't operate this in real time, these systems have

937
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 1: to be somewhat autonomous. So then imagine that it's here.

938
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: We have Mars samples there, sterile or pristine. They're in

939
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: the laboratory, and you're the first person to get cracked

940
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: at them. Right, what's the first thing you do to

941
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 1: those samples? What's the first question you want to answer? Oh,

942
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: my goodness, that is such a I mean, if I'm

943
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: the first person to see them, I don't know if

944
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: I could keep it from my friends. I have to

945
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: invite everybody over so we can all look at this together,

946
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, the first step for bringing back

947
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: samples like this is you must triage them. So we

948
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: need to get a general sense what kind of rock

949
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: is this, what kind of minerals? You know, just basic characteristics,

950
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: because is that will then tell you what the next

951
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: question should be. You know, if you have a rock

952
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: that appears to be igneous, so from a volcano. The

953
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: next questions are going to be, you know, more about

954
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: how did vulcanism evolve in this place, you know, what

955
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: kind of volcano reduced this material, and then what happened

956
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: to it next. If you get a sedimentary sample, totally

957
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: different questions. You're like, Okay, so now this is sedimentary.

958
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: Was it emplaced in water? What kind of water? You know,

959
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: what's the nature of the properties of that fluid, and

960
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: then what kind of other minerals were precipitating there, and

961
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: what does that tell us about the habitability of that

962
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: environment and what kind of things could actually utilize you know,

963
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 1: what are the energy sources that might have been there.

964
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: So so I think like, depending on the first canister

965
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: that I open, you know, you go in a different direction.

966
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: So I'm hoping that we get some sedimentary materials that

967
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: are high in manganese, and we'll know that before they

968
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: come back from ours because we will select these very carefully,

969
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: So that would probably be something that will already know.

970
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: So I would pick, you know, my favorite canister to

971
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: open first so that I could follow my favorite questions.

972
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: And for me, I'm really interested in understanding, you know,

973
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: are there bio signatures that are preserved in sedimentary materials

974
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,399
Speaker 1: on Mars. So these are chemical or mineralogical or even

975
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: morphological features that are left by life that can tell

976
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: us something about what it was doing. Um, and then

977
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 1: it can also, depending on the age of the rock,

978
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: tell us when it was doing that. So those are

979
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 1: the questions that I don't want to answer first. All right, wonderful.

980
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: Well I can hear your enthusiasm and it makes me

981
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: excited to get these samples back here. So thanks again

982
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: for coming out of program and for telling us about it. Yeah,

983
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. It's been great chatting. All right,

984
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: pretty awesome. She's amazing. It sounds like it's totally possible,

985
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: Like this might work, Daniel. It's basically a question of

986
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: politics and money and then you know a little bit

987
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: of luck, like if we actually commit to doing thing

988
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 1: and to sending this thing over there, we have a

989
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: reasonable chance of it working. Really, you know, something of

990
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: missions to Mars fail. But that's a reasonable chance. Is

991
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: that our hit rate, Yeah, that's our hit rate, and

992
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 1: I think we have the best hit rate of any

993
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: country on Earth. But it's still it's tricky, it's far away.

994
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: These things are complicated. But remember what NASA has pulled

995
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,399
Speaker 1: off like they have done amazing things like the sky

996
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: crane landing on Mars and all sorts of stuff. So

997
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: this some pretty awesome engineers over there. I trust them.

998
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: I think they deserve a couple of billion. Yeah, yeah,

999
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: you're saying that. The biggest challenges just keeping this project funded,

1000
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: because you know it takes years and years. It's like

1001
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: a twenty year project, fifteen year project. Yeah. If the

1002
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: samples do return, they'll be back here in twenty one

1003
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: and so it just needs constant funding. And you know

1004
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: how it is these days with politics. New administration comes in,

1005
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: first thing they love to do is cancel the projects

1006
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: from the previous administration, and so it has to be

1007
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 1: consistently supported by multiple branches of government in order to survive. Well, sure, yeah,

1008
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 1: let's give him all the billions. I mean not all

1009
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: of the billions, but a few of the billions. I

1010
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: think of the things we could learn. I'm always frustrated

1011
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: when there are opportunities to learn something important and deep

1012
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: about the universe and the only barrier is money, money

1013
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: that we have. I would totally go into the Universe

1014
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: knowledge Shop and spend lots of billions of dollars to

1015
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: learn things about the universe. You would totally press that

1016
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: red by now, but Mars rock by now. Sample of

1017
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: gas from Jupiter by now. Secrets of the universe. Click

1018
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: click click deliver tomorrow please next day delivery please. All right? Well,

1019
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: Dr Lanson was definitely excited. We're excited, and good luck

1020
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: to the Mars scientists who are working on this and

1021
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: tune in one. Well we'll break down for you the

1022
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 1: incredible discoveries made by Mars. Sample return. That's right today

1023
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: on episode three thousand, Daniel and Horror Explained Auniverse. Remember

1024
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 1: that time we interviewed one of the scientists. No, it

1025
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: will be two robots. Two robots will have taken over

1026
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: the podcast by then, and together they'll transform into an

1027
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: awesome podcast actually making good jokes that end up on

1028
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: a trump All right, well, thanks for joining us. Hope

1029
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: you enjoyed that. See you next time. Thanks for listening,

1030
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is

1031
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. Or more podcast from

1032
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: my heart Radio visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1033
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.