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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Katie Kuric and welcome to Next Question.

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Speaker 1: Love E A. G. I. E. Jones is a writer,

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Speaker 1: a speaker, and the author of two best selling books,

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Speaker 1: I'm Judging You That Do Better Manual and her latest

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Speaker 1: professional troublemaker, The Fear Fighting Manual. I call my book

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Speaker 1: manifestos like life manifestos, kind of essay collections that are

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Speaker 1: based in lessons that I know that if we take

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Speaker 1: them on, we will be better for it. Love These books,

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Speaker 1: like Lovey herself, are trying to help the rest of

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Speaker 1: us do better for ourselves and in turn, the people

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Speaker 1: around us. And let me tell you, this is one

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Speaker 1: of the most inspiring conversations I've had. Lovey imparts her

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Speaker 1: wisdom and drops some seriously sage thought gems. We're always

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Speaker 1: looking for Superman to save the day, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: we all have red capes. New levels come with new devils.

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Speaker 1: We've got to use our power for each other, not

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Speaker 1: against it, and shred the machine. That's just a taste.

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Speaker 1: There is a lot more where that came from. I

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Speaker 1: hope you have a pen and paper with you, because

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Speaker 1: your Lovey lesson starts now. Lovey, I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of listeners probably have heard of you and know who

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Speaker 1: you are. But there are some people listening to this

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Speaker 1: podcast it might be thinking, who's lovey? So why don't

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Speaker 1: you give us your bio? And two minutes are less

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Speaker 1: love e I'm love you Jai Jones and I am

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Speaker 1: a New York Times Best On author, a speaker, a

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Speaker 1: digital strategists, a lover of shoes uh, a Nigerian girl,

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Speaker 1: and a Chicagoan. I am a graduate of the Universe

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Speaker 1: of Illinois. Shout out to the fighting at line. I

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Speaker 1: my degrees in psychology, which I thought I was going

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Speaker 1: to actually practice, but I still love the idea of

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Speaker 1: like how the human mind works, So maybe one day

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Speaker 1: I can still do something related to it. And then

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Speaker 1: what I'll My favorite color is red. I eat rice

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Speaker 1: almost every day, and um, I'm obsessed with hats and blazers.

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Speaker 1: Tell us how you got from uh psychology nature? And

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Speaker 1: in a way, I think your work does explore the

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Speaker 1: human mind, because I think you're very emotionally intelligent, and

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Speaker 1: you connect with people and you see trends and all

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Speaker 1: those things. I think take a certain knowledge of psychology.

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Speaker 1: But how did you get to where you are today?

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Speaker 1: A writer, A speaker, a thought leader really in many ways. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So eighteen years ago I started my first blog. It

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Speaker 1: was my freshman year in college. My friend's peer pressure

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Speaker 1: into doing it. They were like, we're getting weblogs, That's

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Speaker 1: what it was called back then. So I got one,

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Speaker 1: and I chronicled my college career and you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: undergrad shenanigans. I was going through exams. I was getting

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Speaker 1: decent because I actually thought I was gonna be a doctor.

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Speaker 1: So starting in college my major psychology premed. I ended

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Speaker 1: up getting a d my first semester in chemistry, first

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Speaker 1: and last year of my academic career, and I dropped

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Speaker 1: that premed very quickly. I was like, nope, nope, I'm

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Speaker 1: not supposed to be a doctor. I don't even like hospitals.

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Speaker 1: So graduated from college, deleted the college blog, and started

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Speaker 1: awesomely lovey dot com, the blog that I still have today.

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Speaker 1: Um and instead of talking about my life, I was

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Speaker 1: talking about the world as I saw it, TV, regular randomness, race, politics,

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Speaker 1: anything I really felt like. And I was working full

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Speaker 1: time as a marketing coordinator for a nonprofit. So I'd

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Speaker 1: go to work nine to five and I come home

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Speaker 1: and blog, which is this really nice hobby that I

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Speaker 1: had um well, that hobby won its first award in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, and I got laid off my

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Speaker 1: marketing job in two thousand ten April. Tents almost been

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Speaker 1: eleven years, and I basically never had a chance to

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Speaker 1: get another job because it was basically like the universe,

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Speaker 1: and Gud pointed me towards You're supposed to be using

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Speaker 1: your words to make people feel joy, make them think critically,

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Speaker 1: and compel them to take actions that leaves this world

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Speaker 1: better than they found it. So I was doing marketing

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Speaker 1: and branding consulting for small businesses as I looked for

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Speaker 1: other jobs. I still looked for other jobs because I

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Speaker 1: was like, no, no, you need to go find yourself

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Speaker 1: a full time job. You need a four O one

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Speaker 1: K and your shoe habit needs some supporting. So I

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Speaker 1: was still looking for jobs and sending resumes. I actually

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Speaker 1: found out I was still sending out resumes up until

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Speaker 1: like November. But I was, you know, doing what I

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Speaker 1: love really writing and and social strategy and digital strategy.

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Speaker 1: But I basically never had a chance to get another

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Speaker 1: job because clearly I was supposed to be working for

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Speaker 1: myself doing this under my own entity. UM. I came

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Speaker 1: up with my first book, Idea, and it was after

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Speaker 1: I was plagiarized by a journal lists who took three

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Speaker 1: paragraphs of my work dropped it in his without any

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Speaker 1: credit to me, and he emailed me after I went in.

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Speaker 1: He emailed me. It was like I didn't know. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to do that. And I remember saying, is

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Speaker 1: there not a limited edition handbook on how not to

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Speaker 1: be terrible at being humans? And that is what led

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Speaker 1: me to writing and I'm judging you to do better

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Speaker 1: manual UM, which end up coming out in It hit

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Speaker 1: the New York Times list instantly. That changed my life

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Speaker 1: in my career, and then Shonda Rhymes optioned it. Yes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: Shanda optioned it when she was at ABC Studios. And

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Speaker 1: it just was this thing that really got me to

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Speaker 1: be in rooms that I didn't even know existed. A

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Speaker 1: year later, I did a TED talk called Getting Comfortable

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Speaker 1: with Being Uncomfortable. I realized comfort is overrated because being quiet,

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Speaker 1: it's comfortable, keeping things the way they've been. It's comfortable,

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Speaker 1: and all comfort has done is maintained the status quote.

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Speaker 1: So we've got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable by

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Speaker 1: speaking these hard truths when they're necessary. And I the

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Speaker 1: talk point viral had a million views in the month,

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Speaker 1: and that talk now has I think five point six

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Speaker 1: million views. Another career changer, and that talk is what

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Speaker 1: led me to write my new book, my latest book,

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Speaker 1: Professional Troublemaker, The Fear Fighter Manual, which just debuted at

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Speaker 1: three on the New York Times list. So that was

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Speaker 1: that was exciting, And so yeah, my path is a

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Speaker 1: series of moments that I didn't necessarily plan that led

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Speaker 1: to something greater, being open to the universe and where

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Speaker 1: it takes you, which is obviously what you did, Lovey.

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Speaker 1: And I want to talk about the new book book,

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Speaker 1: but I do want to mention the other book, the

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Speaker 1: previous book. I'm I'm judging you that you better manual.

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Speaker 1: When people say what are these books, what do you say, Lovey?

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Speaker 1: They are part memoir because I usually tell stories of myself,

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Speaker 1: because I put myself in the middle of my writing

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Speaker 1: to make sure that I am not making myself self exceptional,

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Speaker 1: that I am a guide instead of an expert in

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Speaker 1: this whole thing. And my books don't take themselves so

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Speaker 1: seriously because I don't take myself so seriously. So I'll

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Speaker 1: talk through what I've learned. I'll make you laugh while

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Speaker 1: you're reading it, um and hopefully make an idea that

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Speaker 1: you've heard before stick better, Like what giv me an

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Speaker 1: example of that? Lovely? So think about imposter syndrome, which

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Speaker 1: we've heard a thousand times, right, I think impostor syndrome

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Speaker 1: is you're putting on them. You're feeling like you're wearing

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Speaker 1: a mask that you've not earned, or you're wearing a

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Speaker 1: coat that does not belong to you. And I think

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Speaker 1: about the moments when we're all in rooms that feel like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm here, and imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome comes roaring back, and I'm like, you know, spend

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Speaker 1: less time being worried about how you've made it in

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Speaker 1: the room, spend more time saying, well, I am here,

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Speaker 1: so I'm to make sure I bring value to the room.

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Speaker 1: Imposter syndrome can be a driver, not a stunter. Right,

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Speaker 1: if we let it stunt us will let us say.

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Speaker 1: It will make us say no to yes opportunities. You know,

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Speaker 1: if we let it drive us, it will make us

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Speaker 1: say yes. I might not feel like I'm ready, but

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Speaker 1: I'll be ready, so I'm gonna be better at my craft.

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Speaker 1: I'll make sure I'm working hard. I will make sure

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Speaker 1: I'm being authentically myself, and that way I won't feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm wearing a mask in that room. Sometimes, though,

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Speaker 1: I think you have imposter syndrome when you feel like

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Speaker 1: everyone is at a certain level and you're not right.

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Speaker 1: So how do you I think there's a real confidence

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Speaker 1: barrier to figuring out, well, what can I get to

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Speaker 1: this room and not worrying about why you're there? How

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Speaker 1: do you break through really convincing yourself that what you

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Speaker 1: say is worth hearing? Mm hmm, So I really I

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Speaker 1: have to put in the perspective of we are often

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Speaker 1: thinking everybody else's extraordinary, but us right, We're thinking the

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Speaker 1: person who's in the room, who looks like they're really

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Speaker 1: comfortable in the room, never had a fear, but they

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Speaker 1: did too. They might even have a fear right then

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Speaker 1: and there, So normalizing the idea that we're actually all

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Speaker 1: walking around with all these silent fears, and then also

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Speaker 1: affirming yourself in knowing that your story, in your words,

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Speaker 1: are no less valid than anybody else in the room,

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Speaker 1: that in itself as a practice. You know, why is

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Speaker 1: somebody else's story more valid than yours? Why why should

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Speaker 1: they be more important than yours? There are no no

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Speaker 1: real extraordinary people to me. I think we see extraordinary

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Speaker 1: people and they're really ordinary people who decided to do

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Speaker 1: something over and over again. It's stuck, right, So people

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Speaker 1: aren't born extraordinary where I mean, there are some people

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Speaker 1: with extraordinary gifts, But I don't think you're just born

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Speaker 1: extraordinary and then one day everybody knows your name. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of extraordinarily gifted people whose names we

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Speaker 1: don't know because they didn't practice it out loud, you know,

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Speaker 1: who didn't show their art. So I'm always thinking the

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Speaker 1: people who are in those rooms that you might want

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Speaker 1: to be in, think about the fact that they just

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Speaker 1: happened to do something over and over again enough to

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Speaker 1: where somebody said, all right, I see you, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: ask you in here. So what is the thing that

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Speaker 1: you just have to commit to doing over and over

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Speaker 1: again if you want to be in the rooms that

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Speaker 1: you are seeing everybody else in More with the Professional

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Speaker 1: Troublemaker in Just a Moment. Your book is called Professional Troublemaker,

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Speaker 1: The Fear Fighter Manual and I wanted you to define

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Speaker 1: what a troublemaker is, but first what a troublemaker isn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a troublemaker is not a contrarian or the devil's advocate

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Speaker 1: who's always like, well, let's look at it differently. They're

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Speaker 1: not a troll who is throwing chaos bombs in a room.

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Speaker 1: Professional troublemakers are people who are committed, dedicated to elevating

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Speaker 1: the rooms that they're in and disrupting for the greater good.

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Speaker 1: You know. They're the person who sits in the meeting

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Speaker 1: and says, hey, the campaign idea, I would love for

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Speaker 1: us to be a little bit more thoughtful about it.

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Speaker 1: You know. They're the ones who are sitting at the

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Speaker 1: dinner table where if your uncle makes a joke that's

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Speaker 1: not appropriate, they'll be like, hey, uncle, not good, you know.

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Speaker 1: And they're the friends. They're a friend that we all

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Speaker 1: have who always wanted to have a tough conversation even

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Speaker 1: though it might make other people uncomfortable. They're like, let's

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Speaker 1: let's talk about this thing because it's important. I think

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Speaker 1: troublemakers are necessary in the world, and they're they're being

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Speaker 1: silenced more than they're being celebrated. And that is a mistake.

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Speaker 1: I love what you write. A professional troublemakers, someone who

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Speaker 1: critiques the world, the shoddy systems and the people who

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Speaker 1: refuse to do better. As a writer, a speaker, and

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Speaker 1: a shaking night Jerry, and I am the person giving

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Speaker 1: the side eye to folks for doing trash things. I'm

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Speaker 1: the person who is unable to be quiet when I

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Speaker 1: feel cheated. I'm the person who says what you were

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Speaker 1: thinking and feeling but dare not say because you have

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Speaker 1: a job to protect or you're afraid of how it

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Speaker 1: will land. Yeah, that's pretty fearless. You don't You're not

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Speaker 1: afraid to express yourself. It seems to me that we're

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Speaker 1: living in very treacherous times, you know, in terms of

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Speaker 1: expressing yourself and being misconstrued or taken wrongly. I think,

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Speaker 1: especially as these culture shifts are unfolding happily before our eyes,

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Speaker 1: how do you kind of balance this need to speak out?

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Speaker 1: You know, speak truth to power, but also be received

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Speaker 1: in a way that will help facilitate understanding and uh

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Speaker 1: changes in attitude and real oppress If that makes sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, with speaking out and that one

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Speaker 1: thing that people must understand about troublemakers is that we

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Speaker 1: don't just speak up because we're not afraid. We do

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Speaker 1: it in spite of the fact that we are afraid.

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Speaker 1: You know, we are bold, and we come across as that.

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Speaker 1: But it's not because we don't think there aren't going

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Speaker 1: to be consequences. Sometimes it doesn't mean we don't we're

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Speaker 1: not afraid of the fact that, yes, one person might

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Speaker 1: misconstrue what we say, our intention and blow it up, right,

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Speaker 1: it's just that we say, I understand that's a risk,

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Speaker 1: and I will take it. And it is one of

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Speaker 1: those things. And it's not even about being fearless, because

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Speaker 1: I think fearlessness is not even not just about you're

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Speaker 1: not afraid. I think fearlessness is that you're not letting

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Speaker 1: fear make you do less. So you go, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: about to say this thing that might be controversial, but

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Speaker 1: I really believe it and I think it's the truth,

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say it, and you go, I know

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Speaker 1: it might not land well, some people might not like it,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's important that we have this dialogue

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Speaker 1: and you say it knowing that you are also not

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Speaker 1: in control of how anybody will receive it. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that we must understand in this world is

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Speaker 1: that the only people that we have any type of

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Speaker 1: real control overs ourselves and everybody else is a crack shoot.

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Speaker 1: How everybody you know takes whatever you say is really

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Speaker 1: up in the air. You might say one thing and

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Speaker 1: it lands well, and then the next thing people go,

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Speaker 1: why would you say that? And that's why you have

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Speaker 1: to control yourself in terms of how thoughtful your being.

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Speaker 1: It's why I have a three question framework that I

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Speaker 1: use to ask myself whenever i'm I want to say

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Speaker 1: something that feels tough or that people might disagree with.

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Speaker 1: It's do I mean it? Can I defend it? Can

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Speaker 1: I say thoughtfully? If the answer is just all those

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Speaker 1: three questions, I say it knowing that it might still

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Speaker 1: land in a way that somebody doesn't like. But I've

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Speaker 1: done my risk mitigation and I've done my obligation because

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Speaker 1: I think if I am constantly moving based on how

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Speaker 1: how I think people receive it, my moves won't be

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Speaker 1: authentic to me anymore. I'll be controlled by what I

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Speaker 1: think is going to be the impact all the time.

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Speaker 1: At which point I would take no risks, I would

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Speaker 1: say nothing real. I will stay in a safe bubble

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Speaker 1: and only say the things that I know will go well,

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Speaker 1: which for a thought leader, I can't do that because

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Speaker 1: what how do how do I grow as a thought

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Speaker 1: leader if I'm constantly only saying what's safe? Um, how

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Speaker 1: do I? How do you an example? Give me an

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Speaker 1: example of you if when you put something out there

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Speaker 1: it met all three criteria for going ahead and speaking

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Speaker 1: out and atlantic or didn't. I mean. Chapter seven of

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Speaker 1: my book is called failed Loudly, and it is chronicles

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Speaker 1: the time when I made my biggest public fail where

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Speaker 1: I trend it on Twitter because of it a come

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Speaker 1: that I thought was innoxious that ends up being oh

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Speaker 1: my god, I can't believe she said it. And that

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Speaker 1: moment for me was a lesson because I was like,

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Speaker 1: it was less about what I said, it was about

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Speaker 1: it was more about how people wanted to react in

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Speaker 1: that moment. It was also more about a lesson I

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Speaker 1: need to learn about the fact that because I am

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Speaker 1: a thought leader, because I am I have a bigger platform,

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Speaker 1: my my words are engaged with differently, and the platform

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Speaker 1: being bigger means more people are listening. There are more

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Speaker 1: chances to be misunderstood. It doesn't mean I shut up.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I say less. It actually means that one,

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Speaker 1: I continue to give myself the chance to fail too,

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Speaker 1: because each fail is a growth opportunity, because I am

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Speaker 1: a better thinker because of that situation. And then three,

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Speaker 1: we cannot control other people and the fear that a

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Speaker 1: lot of us have, which is being humiliar at it

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Speaker 1: publicly or you know, ended up trending for something that

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Speaker 1: is not positive. I went through it. It did not

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Speaker 1: kill me, right. It's one of those painful lessons that

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Speaker 1: we're always afraid of that moment though, And what's funny

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Speaker 1: is in the moment when that moment happened, I actually

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Speaker 1: wasn't afraid of it. It was something that felt innocua,

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Speaker 1: something that wasn't even thinking was a problem. So I

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Speaker 1: think it reinforced for me that my mission and my

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Speaker 1: purpose my words are bigger than any one moment, and

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Speaker 1: I must continue to use it in a real way,

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Speaker 1: and I need to be more thoughtful. All of that,

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Speaker 1: it was like a big storm of I need to

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Speaker 1: show you that new levels come with new devils. But

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Speaker 1: also when the worst case scenario happens, you can still recover,

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Speaker 1: You can still your space up you can still move

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Speaker 1: forward and do your work. It will not destroy you. All.

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Speaker 1: Every mistake, even big ones, are not destruction mistakes, right,

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Speaker 1: because we're always afraid of the destruction. So I was like,

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Speaker 1: all right, if I made it through there, I can

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Speaker 1: do something big. But you do just say new levels,

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Speaker 1: with new levels, new devils. Yeah, that's good to remember

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Speaker 1: because I think people that's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: people live in fear of, right, that they'll get a

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Speaker 1: clap back, or they'll get you know, told no, or

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Speaker 1: they'll get something and it will not destroy you basically correct. Correct.

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Speaker 1: I think we're often afraid of the worst case scenario,

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Speaker 1: but then we'll use it to it will opt out

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Speaker 1: of the best case scenario in the process, so we

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Speaker 1: won't say that thing that feels tough because we're afraid

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Speaker 1: of the major clap back. But the best case scenario

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Speaker 1: to be ships in the world could be ships and

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Speaker 1: how somebody's thinking could be impactful to somebody somewhere who

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Speaker 1: feels alone in this It could help normalize somebody's pain.

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Speaker 1: And how often are we opted out of that piece

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Speaker 1: that impact that we can have because we're afraid of

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Speaker 1: our egos being hurt. You dedicate this book to your grandmother.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about her and why you got such courage

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Speaker 1: from the person she She was. Yeah, my grandmother Fumilia

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Speaker 1: following we called her Mama following. She was a fireball.

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Speaker 1: She was passion, love, kindness all rolled in one package.

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Speaker 1: And my grandmother took up space without apology in a

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Speaker 1: big way. She allowed herself to be celebrated, and she

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Speaker 1: never apologized for herself. You know, she walked with so

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Speaker 1: much pride about just her persona that in her presence

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Speaker 1: it was hard to feel bad about yourself because you

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Speaker 1: would just be like, look at her. And she gave

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Speaker 1: me the gift of that because I didn't realize that

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Speaker 1: what she was doing was giving me permission to be

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Speaker 1: who I am in a real way. She never had

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Speaker 1: to be like be yourself. She just was herself and

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Speaker 1: I was watching her, and I'm like, okay, And I

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Speaker 1: learned a lot from just seeing how she navigated through

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Speaker 1: the world, which is often not kind to black women.

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Speaker 1: My grandmother was like, this is who I am. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna deal and you're probably gonna love me. Like you know,

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Speaker 1: she was very kind in that anything that she had,

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Speaker 1: if somebody else was missing it, She'll give it to them.

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Speaker 1: She would. I've seen my grandmother I should have visitors

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Speaker 1: and somebody said, oh my god, I like your shirt,

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Speaker 1: and she would literally go change and say here to

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Speaker 1: the person who just complimented her shirt. The ring that

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Speaker 1: I wear on this hand that I basically haven't taken

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Speaker 1: off like twenty years, was hers. One day I was like, oh, Grandma,

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Speaker 1: that's really nice. She literally slips this ring, this gold ring,

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Speaker 1: off her finger and handed it to me and I've

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Speaker 1: been wearing it ever since. She was that woman who

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Speaker 1: was just benevolent, beyond understanding, but she didn't do it

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Speaker 1: by sacrificing herself, and that was really key. I think

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Speaker 1: women are often told, or the messaging that we get

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Speaker 1: is that we need to be of service, even if

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Speaker 1: it is of detriment to ourselves. She was of service,

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Speaker 1: but she was never gonna sacrifice herself for it. I

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Speaker 1: didn't see it, so I was learning all of that

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Speaker 1: and I think I carry that with me and I'm

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Speaker 1: thankful that she gave me that permission. How old were

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Speaker 1: you when you came to this country. I was nine,

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Speaker 1: and I'm curious how much the immigrant experience for you.

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Speaker 1: Lovey impacted sort of how you move in the world

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Speaker 1: and how you see the world and how you want

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Speaker 1: the world to see you. Mm hmm. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a big part of how I see myself and just

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Speaker 1: everything about me, my the way I write, the way

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Speaker 1: I approach humored, the way my swag is very Nigerian,

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Speaker 1: and um my face is very Nigerian. Um. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think I see the world in a way that's different

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Speaker 1: because knowing what it's like to come from a place

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Speaker 1: where everybody looks like you and now everybody who looks

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Speaker 1: like you is considered less than it does shock your system.

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Speaker 1: But I think I also had the bubble that protected

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Speaker 1: me at home. You know, I kept that with me

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Speaker 1: and I and I am service oriented and that my

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Speaker 1: my family especially, that's been a big part of us.

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Speaker 1: Like it's almost cultural for us to to give, Like

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Speaker 1: if you were to come to my house and I

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Speaker 1: only had a one bedroom, for example, Culturally, I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to let you have my bed and I sleep on

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Speaker 1: the couch, And that is deeply embedded in how I

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Speaker 1: operate to um and if I have too much of excess,

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Speaker 1: I must have somebody else must get some of it.

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Speaker 1: But I think, Yeah, just how I even approach everything

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Speaker 1: food from the food I eat, the music I listened

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Speaker 1: to a lot. Afrobeats is very much embedded in my culture.

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Speaker 1: The fact that I can tell the stories of mine

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Speaker 1: grandmother and introduced people to new concepts that they might

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Speaker 1: not have heard. That's in your by land. It's all

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Speaker 1: my culture. And I think, I I'm I'm proudly Nigerian American,

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Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that somebody else somewhere just to see

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Speaker 1: me and say, you know what, I'm going to use

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Speaker 1: her as the example to my parents as what's possible

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Speaker 1: for me. A lot of I think women and women

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Speaker 1: of color have dealt with not having enough role models

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Speaker 1: in their lives, not seen enough women before them. Too

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Speaker 1: many of them are are first when they should be second, third, fourth,

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Speaker 1: and fifth. And I'm curious how that, how that affected

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Speaker 1: you and where you saw it those role models other

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Speaker 1: than your family. Yeah. So for a long time I

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Speaker 1: did not call myself a writer because I thought writers

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Speaker 1: were journalists or novelists. I didn't see an example of

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Speaker 1: a writer who was an essayist who wrote like I did.

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Speaker 1: So it actually did cause me a bit of a

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Speaker 1: mental roadblock for a while because I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't be a writer like Tony Morrison's writer, but

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Speaker 1: Tony writes novels, so I can't. That's not me. And

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Speaker 1: I think about how just not having the example stopped

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Speaker 1: me so much from that that it brings me joy

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Speaker 1: that I can be somebody's example. Now, you know, in

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Speaker 1: terms of writers, there's so many of us now too

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Speaker 1: that exists who are essays, who aren't just writing the novels,

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Speaker 1: and so the kids who are Generation Z, they have

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Speaker 1: a lot of options to look to like that's possible,

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Speaker 1: that's version, it's possible to and that's the gift that

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Speaker 1: we didn't have. So part of the work that I

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Speaker 1: do and how I show up in the world is

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Speaker 1: with the hopes that somebody else has seen me and

428
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: being able to be like, Okay, because Letty did that

429
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: and can do that, that means I can't also, and

430
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: it's possible. It's that concrete example that we often need

431
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: to know what is like possible for us. So whatever

432
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: the example that I didn't have, I became that example

433
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: for myself and then now I'm hoping I'm the example

434
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: for other people. I think, what's so exciting about the

435
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: culture today, and there are a lot of bills about

436
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: social media, but the way you can reach people, you

437
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: no longer have few outlets with with gatekeepers who all

438
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: basically look like the same person, you have the same background,

439
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: determine what's worthy or what's not. You can put things

440
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: out in the world and and let people respond. And

441
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: that has changed everything, don't you think. Yeah, Social has

442
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 1: democratized everything. I've been early adopter of all the platforms,

443
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: so I've been on Facebook since July's thousand four. I've

444
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: been on Twitter since September two thou eight, and Instagram

445
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: since twelve. And I've just watched all the platforms unlocked

446
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: doors in ways that's mind boggling. People create an account

447
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: and in three months, if they have the right content,

448
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: have a million followers, and we'll have all this option

449
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: of who to work with. And I think it's beautiful

450
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: because the lack of that, we have to strive for

451
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: every bit of it, and social now opening that door.

452
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: That means we're we are every day we're getting access

453
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: to brilliant minds who who previously would not have had

454
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 1: the chance because of all the locked doors that were

455
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: controlled by a handful of people. Now some of these

456
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: doors are wide open because you just sign up for

457
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: an account. Free account opens up a door. I hope

458
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: more people are doing it. How women can dump those

459
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: are gender roles? Amen to that more advice from Lovy

460
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: in just a moment. There's still a lot of cultural

461
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: conditioning and implicit bias to use sort of monitored day

462
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: buzzwords that keep women in general from doing the things

463
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: that men have always done that they have not felt

464
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: comfortable doing, bringing attention to themselves, being considered a bit

465
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: being outspoken, um, you know, not necessarily adhering to gender

466
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: norms that have really been established obviously for centuries. But

467
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: still I think the remnants of those pressures still exists.

468
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: And and what do you tell women too in terms

469
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: of being able to to kind of straddle that or

470
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: perhaps even better, put these expectations aside and kind of

471
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: push forward, because we've been wired to feel uncomfortable when

472
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: we pushed through gender roles and expectations. And and it's

473
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: still they're still very prevalent in the culture. Yeah, I

474
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: think we should dump them. I think we should dump them.

475
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping this book helps people dump some of

476
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: it because one of the things that women are especially

477
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: concerned about is how do I make sure I don't

478
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: brag about myself if I'm talking about something I did.

479
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: If you're stating the fact of something you did is bragging,

480
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: then brag on. If I can say to you, my

481
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: second book is a New York Times by seller, and

482
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: I say it in any tone actually, and it's considered bragging.

483
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: But I'm like, that was actually just a fact, right.

484
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: I think women need to get rid of the ideas

485
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: that we should be these humble creatures who do not

486
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: own what we're amazing at. I don't think us diminishing

487
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: our dopeness. Does anybody any favors? So yeah, man get

488
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: to say like, oh yeah, I did this, I raised

489
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: this much a mount for my company, and everybody takes

490
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: this fact and says, got it. Respect. We say something

491
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: that we did and were instantly told she's bragging. Well,

492
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: you know what, let me be bragging them. You know,

493
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: I don't think we were brought here to be humble

494
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: in the way we're thinking. Humility is valid. But humility

495
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: does not mean you diminish or you self deprecate. It

496
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: means you know what you're amazing at, but you also

497
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: give credit to all the systems around you, all the

498
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: people who have allowed you to to get there, the

499
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: training you've gotten, your parents were giving you the opportunities.

500
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: My humility is based in the fact that I know

501
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: that my God giving gifts I've honed over years um

502
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: and I've been given access to the life terms to

503
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: do this because my mom made the sacrifice to move

504
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: us to the United States. My grandmother lived this hard

505
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: life before and is fully joyful by the time I

506
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: met her. You know, and all the people who came

507
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: before me, all the writers of color who came before me,

508
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: all the black women scribes who came before me, I

509
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: give them credit. But it does not mean I then

510
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: sit here and diminish my gifts just to make somebody

511
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: else feel better. So I think, women, the sooner that

512
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: we get rid of everybody's expectations of us, the better

513
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: we will be for it. Let us make money without guilt,

514
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: Let us be amazing at our work and being confident

515
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: without guilt. Let us, you know, ask for what we

516
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: want without any guilt attached. And when we start doing that,

517
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: we will start soaring even more because we don't need

518
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: to shackle ourselves to the ground to make everybody else

519
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: feel better? What about the desire on the part of

520
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: so many women? And I think I speak for myself.

521
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: I'm a pleaser and it's important for me to be liked,

522
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily or hasn't necessarily gone hand in hand

523
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: with me. Uh. You know, I've always been kind of

524
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: vacillating from being direct saying what I want, am worrying

525
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: about what people think of me. How how do you

526
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: rid yourself of that? You know, you just have to

527
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: just know logically, humans are fickle. Humans are fickle beings,

528
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: and the things that we like today we won't like tomorrow.

529
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: We will change our reception of somebody's thoughts based on

530
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: the mood we're in, knowing that chasing human validation is

531
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: a futile mission because we will always disappoint somebody. Somebody

532
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 1: will always disagree with you, Somebody will always dislike you,

533
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: no matter what you do. So when we insist on

534
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: people pleasing, we're like chasing people's fickleness. And they don't

535
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: even know when they would like us. They don't even

536
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: know what we need to do to make them like us.

537
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: So it's exhausting. It is a hopeless mission, and it

538
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: is a waste of time. It is truly a waste

539
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: of time to try to receive the approval of most

540
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: humans because you won't get it. You can bend yourself

541
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: over backwards and somebody will still say you didn't bend avoid,

542
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: you didn't bend enough, That wasn't enough. So knowing that

543
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: I'm always like, I can't. I can't move with the

544
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: idea that I it's because I want a specific group

545
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: to like me, because the people who don't like me

546
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: will never like me. If you don't like me now,

547
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: you're never gonna like me. So if I'm already on

548
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: your I hate her list, you can keep me there.

549
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: You're not my people. I need to actually talk more

550
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: and deep in my connection with those who are my people,

551
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: the people who are already like Yes, I hear you,

552
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: I see you, I affirm what you're saying. So I

553
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: think we need to just know who are people are

554
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: and speak to them. As long as our people are good,

555
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: everybody else you don't have to like me. It's okay.

556
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: I can't win you over, nor is it my job

557
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: to win you over, because no one who meant is

558
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: more worse brare than another. So if I'm like constantly

559
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: trying to get you to like me. What about the

560
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: person over there who doesn't like No, I gotta spend

561
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: more effort on that. So I think we just gotta

562
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: let um let it go and recognize that you don't

563
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: even like everybody, right, so everybody shouldn't like you. I know,

564
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people hate me, which is great,

565
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: because a whole lot of people love me too. And

566
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: they're the ones who I want to feed. They're the

567
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: ones who I want to affirm. They're the ones who

568
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: I want to spend some time with and hopefully loan

569
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: courage and power when they need everybody else I'm not

570
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: there people, which is fine. Let's talk about the three

571
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: sections of your book Loving because one is be, one

572
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: is say, one is do, And I wonder if you

573
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: could just help us understand the takeaway from each of

574
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: these sections. Be Let's start with B fear. Half the

575
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: battle is with our own self, our own insecurities, and

576
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,239
Speaker 1: our own baggage. Go yes. In the B section I'm

577
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: talking about we have to get our mindset together because

578
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: what we think possible is a self fulfilling prophecy. Unfortunately,

579
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: so we have to get rid of a lot of

580
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: these attachments to people's thoughts about us, a lot of

581
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: these attachments to people's dreams that they have for us,

582
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: some of these attachments to our own negative self talk

583
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: about ourselves. You gotta get rid of it. It's not

584
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: it's not used, it's not useful. It is a waste

585
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: of our time and energy and better. And it makes

586
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: you get stuck. You absolutely get stuck. It will weigh

587
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: you down. It will weigh you down. It's like you're

588
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: sitting on the couch while like holding onto a boulder.

589
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: It will weigh you down. So what what is your

590
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: solution for that? Gash yourself up, hype yourself up all

591
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: the time, have something at the ready. And in my

592
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: first chapter, I make people write in a Reekian life

593
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: mission statement, because I want you to have at the

594
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: ready something that is affirming about you, written down, noted, documented,

595
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: whether it's laminated and sitting by your computer, whether it's

596
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: by your mirror. Something. So in those days when you're

597
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: feeling way down, where somebody has called you a name

598
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: that doesn't belong to you, or somebody has said you're

599
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: not enough, that you're too much, refer back to this thing,

600
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: Read it over and over again until you feel okay again,

601
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: and then just keep it there because you might need

602
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: it the day after. Say, we've got to say what's difficult,

603
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,479
Speaker 1: even when our voices shake. Yes. So after you get

604
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: the mindset together, now you have to start putting the

605
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: words to this new boldness and this confidence. Why, because

606
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: we've gotta say it out loud. There's power in our

607
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: in our words, there's and and it basically establishes and

608
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: keeps us accountable. We have to be the person who

609
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: is in the room, not being silent as something is

610
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: awful going on, but saying you know what, I'm gonna

611
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: challenge that, and I'm gonna do it thoughtfully, but I'm

612
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: gonna challenge that because I want to be proud of

613
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: any place that I'm in. And finally, do grow anyway,

614
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: do what's heard anyway change anyway? Yes. So now you

615
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: gotta put some some action to the words. You know,

616
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: how are you moving different? What is the thing that

617
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: you're gonna do to make sure you're supporting yourself, to

618
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: make sure you're honoring yourself? Um, And sometimes self care

619
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: looks like saying no, you know. Sometimes self care looks

620
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: like firing yourself. Sometimes it looks like building your squad.

621
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: Gotta do actions. So be right, get your mind right,

622
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: say use your words, do put some action to it.

623
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 1: Air book had a transformational effect before it was even published.

624
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: On your editor neg leader. Yes, yeah, yeah, and tell

625
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: us how she successfully used your advice after reading the manuscript. Yes.

626
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: So Meg read my manuscript last year. She was the

627
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: first person to read the manuscript top down. And when

628
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: she sent my first draft back, it's um she had

629
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: at its comments on the in the side and she said,

630
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: from my ask for more chapter, which is chapter four,

631
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: she was like, just so you know, this chapter made

632
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: me ask my boss for a raise. And I was like, amazing.

633
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: Already I was really thrilled for her because I'm like, yes,

634
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 1: come on and do the thing the book is telling you.

635
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: In December, um our last book meeting for the year,

636
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: she was like, so I have some great news. I

637
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: have been promoted to editorial director of Penguin Life. Not

638
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: only did she get the raise, she got a promotion

639
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: and she was like, your book is what really compelled

640
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: me to make that ask, and it's changed her life.

641
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: She's like, your book has changed my life, and for me,

642
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: that is the best case scenario of doing this type

643
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: of work knowing that my words can compel somebody to

644
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: do something concrete that shifts their life in something in

645
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: a really good way. I was like, Wow, Okay, so

646
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: the book is already a success. In my book, like

647
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: with my criteria, this book is already a wild least

648
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: successful thing. What about having the courage to join forces

649
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: with other people to really move the needle on some

650
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: of these thorny cultural issues that are so um gosh

651
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: entrenched in our society. And what is your perspective on that?

652
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: Because obviously these are individual things that people can do,

653
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: but what about things that they can do when they

654
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: collaborate with other like minded people. Yeah. I think this

655
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: is also where it's important for us to be able

656
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: to trust each other and tell each other the truth,

657
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: because collaboration with other people is teamwork, right, and for

658
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: teamwork to go very well, there has to be foundational

659
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: trust and there has to be room for being challenged.

660
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: We absolutely have to start getting together to solve bigger issues,

661
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: because that's why they say teamwork makes the dreamwork. Two

662
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: heads always better than one. Our collaboration is necessary, and

663
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: we're all being collaborative in that you know even this

664
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: podcast is collaborative. The fact that you are speaking to

665
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: other people and bringing different thoughts together. That is the

666
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: power of the world we living and we all have

667
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: to start rise into that occasion. So whenever we are

668
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: in the room, that's our ability, and that's our platform

669
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: in the moment. I think people are very people think

670
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: platforms and collaboration comes with having four thousand followers. No,

671
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: I think the platform we all have are the rooms

672
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: that were in the people. We get to talk to

673
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: our friends, our colleagues, people we might have never met,

674
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: but we know we can text them because everybody has

675
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: an Internet friend. Okay, that's our platform, and we collaborate

676
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: and just seeing the humanity in each other and saying, listen,

677
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: here's the thing that we gotta do. Can you join

678
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: me and fixing this? And that's why we all have

679
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: to do our parts in being troublemakers. It's why we

680
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: all have to kind of commit to saying, if I

681
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: am in the room, I would be proud of what

682
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: happens in it. I will be the person who's asking questions,

683
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 1: who is making sure that we've checked out our blind spots.

684
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: You know, the person who asked the one extra question

685
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: that might lead us to a black hole of discussion,

686
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: but it's needed for this thing to be as thoughtful

687
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: as possible. We need everybody to do that. It can't

688
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 1: just be one person doing it. You know, we're always

689
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: looking for Superman to save the day. And I'm like,

690
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: we all have red capes. You don't have to wait

691
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: for Superman. Use your own cape. And finally, I love

692
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: just listening to you, lovey And and finally you you

693
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: quote John Lewis, who was such a great man about

694
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, getting too necessary good trouble, which has become

695
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: obviously so associated with him and the life, the incredible

696
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: life he lived. But but you also say he's a

697
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: shining example of loaning courage. So how how what does

698
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: that mean exactly? And how can we all loan courage? Yeah?

699
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: I think we long encouraged by affirming each other. You know,

700
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: the late great John Lewis absolutely loan urged by modeling

701
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: what courage looked like. You know, he will He spoke

702
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: up when it was tough, He put his body on

703
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: the line when it was tough, and hoping people would

704
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: see him and say, I can also do something, even

705
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: if I'm not doing that I can do something. And

706
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: the piece about lone encouraged is especially real for me

707
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: because my Ted talk that now has all these million views.

708
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: I almost didn't do it. I have to turn it

709
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: down twice. I was about to turn down a third

710
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: time when I called my friend Unique Jones Gibson, who

711
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, is one of the besties. I called

712
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: her and I was about to say I was I

713
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: was telling her. I was like, hey, Pat Mitchell wants

714
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: me to do this Ted talk. It's in three weeks.

715
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: I don't think I can do it. Everybody else has

716
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: already had a coach, everybody else has already been rehearsed,

717
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: they have their talks together. I would have to come

718
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: up with my own talk and presented and on the

719
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: stage in three weeks. And Unique literally said, everybody, ain't you.

720
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: She's like, you're not everybody. Your speaking has been your coaching,

721
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: You've been on the stage every three days, you have

722
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: eight years of experience. You are not everybody. So get

723
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: off my phone, go right this talk and kill it.

724
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: And that is the moment when I actually deleted the

725
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: email I was gonna send decline it for the third time.

726
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: And what Unique did then when she loaned me courage.

727
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: She reminded me of my power when I actually wasn't

728
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: sure of it. And that's what I hope John Lewis's

729
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: life does for a lot of people. That's what I

730
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: hope when they see people like me who show up boldly. Also,

731
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: I hope we're loaning people courage constantly. I hope they're

732
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: thinking about my words in the meeting with their boss

733
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: when they're asking for the promotion. I hope they're thinking

734
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: I should have that tough conversation with my friend. And

735
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: I hope when they're asked to celebrate each other of themselves,

736
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: they don't feel bad about doing it. We can all

737
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: loan each other courage from afar and when we're right

738
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: up in the room so affirming each other's experiences in

739
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: our lives. Why do you think women haven't done a

740
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: better job of loaning each other courage that they have

741
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: been here before? I think competitive. I mean I've been

742
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: very competitive through the years. I can't say that I

743
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: necessarily done a good enough job loaning courage to other

744
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: women who I see as threats. So how do you

745
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 1: how do you get rid of that? I think natural

746
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 1: impulse to see other women who may be vying for

747
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: a job that is the same as yours, as sisters

748
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: and not threats. Yeah, I think about it as one.

749
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: Women have been programmed to not be supportive of each

750
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: other because the patriarchy, the systems we live in have

751
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: told us that if one of us wins, the rest

752
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: of us failed. So we've been told that scarcity is

753
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: the way to move, when really it's abundance. Because if

754
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: you get a position I want, that doesn't mean I failed.

755
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: Actually means you want, which means hopefully you opened the

756
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: door that allows more women to come behind you. I

757
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 1: think for us is understanding that, to be quiet, honest,

758
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: competition isn't real. You know, even if you are in

759
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: a hundred meter dash, the person who wins is the

760
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: person who runs the fastest race. When you win and

761
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: you're facing twenty people and you end up getting ten seconds,

762
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: maybe that type seconds might not actually be the one

763
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: that wins the race. You might do another race and

764
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: you ran fixteen seconds in that one. It doesn't matter

765
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: what other people are doing. If your best is what

766
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: showed up. Your best was enough, whether or not you

767
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 1: came in first place by product. So I'm always thinking

768
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: if even if I am up for a keynote with

769
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: another woman and they're choosing somebody else, all I know

770
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: is my job in that moment is to put my

771
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: best foot forward. But if they're best foot forward, actually

772
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: best mind, congrats you won that. It doesn't mean there's

773
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: fewer jobs for me. It doesn't mean it takes me

774
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: out of the game completely. It doesn't mean I'm not

775
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: a great speaker. It just means that person's best in

776
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: that instance beat mine. Doesn't mean mind sucked. And it's

777
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: a constant affirmation. And I think just thinking through the

778
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: fact that the thing, the machine that has been put

779
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: in place that has told us there's only one job,

780
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: thirty people are vying for it, and if you don't

781
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: get the one job, your life is ruined. Break the machine.

782
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: We gotta start breaking the machine. Like, I'm totally not

783
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 1: interested in participating in those types of games where it's

784
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: like one and everybody else is not good. No, no,

785
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: not interested, not interested at all. So yeah, me and

786
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: my friends. Again, I have a lot of friends who

787
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: in the same industry as me, who are probably up

788
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: for some of the same keynote speaking gigs, and I'm

789
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: just like where it gets it gets it whoever it gets,

790
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 1: and then the next one might be mine, or maybe

791
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: I get in and I say, huh, who's your close

792
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: and keynote you know who I know who's amazing her?

793
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: And then now he gets go to the same conference

794
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: everybody went. So we just have to start insisting on

795
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: using our power in these moments when people wanted to

796
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: be in competition twisted on his head. My whole thing is,

797
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: if I can't even do something, for example, I'll pass

798
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: it on to another woman who I know, Hey, I

799
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: know I can't do it, but she can. She's amazing

800
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: at that. And oftentimes they'll say yes. So we got

801
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: to use our power for each other, not against it

802
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: and shred the machine. Your how old, lovely? I am

803
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: thirty six? How do you get to be so wise

804
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: at such a young age. I observe and I absorb,

805
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: and I am a forever student. Um. I have been

806
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: pretty much an old soul since I was young. My

807
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: mom tells me that all the time. Anybody who knows

808
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 1: me when I was little tells me that all the time. Um.

809
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 1: But I think I just continue to absorb the good

810
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: in the world so the bad does not take over

811
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,919
Speaker 1: my psyche. I'm constantly like, what can I learn? How

812
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: can I serve? And how can I honor myself if

813
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 1: I'm honoring everybody else around me? So yeah, Forever student,

814
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: Well love e Agii Jones. You're so fun to talk

815
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: to you. I feel very inspired just having this conversation,

816
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: not to mention you have the most beautiful smile. Your

817
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: new book is Professional Troublemaker the Fear Fighter Manual. I

818
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: think there's really valuable life lessons for everyone in this book. Women, men, anybody, Katie,

819
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: thank you. That is an honor. Next Question with Katie

820
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie

821
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 1: Kurk Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz.

822
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements,

823
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: Adriana Fassio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and

824
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode,

825
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call,

826
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: go to Katie Correct dot com. You can also find

827
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: me at Katie Correct on Instagram and all my social

828
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio visit

829
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

830
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.