1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. You ever have those 2 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: moments in life you're waiting for information, You think about 3 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: the information that you're waiting on, and in your assessment 4 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: you know that whatever that information is, it's not going 5 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: to be good. The understanding of that is the following 6 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: to what degree is it going to be bad? Our 7 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: watch word today is a word confirmation. For years now, 8 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: and I mean years, many of us have followed the 9 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: case of JJ Vaalo and Tyler Ryan. Today we have confirmation. 10 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: We have confirmation of something that we've had swirling around 11 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: in our minds for a while. We have confirmation that 12 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: it is as bad as we thought that it might be. 13 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about the findings of the 14 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists who testify in the trial. Lourie Daville. I'm 15 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Backs. Dave Mac. 16 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: I'd like to say that I enjoy what I do 17 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: as a podcast host. I truly do look forward to 18 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: the time that you and I spend together discussing cases 19 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 1: and discussing forensics and everything. I got to tell you something, brother, 20 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: I'm not looking forward to this. For the past twenty 21 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: four hours. We've been kind of listening to everything that 22 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: the scientists have had to say in the Lorie Valor trial. 23 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: It is heartbreaking, it is horrific. I don't know that 24 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: I have enough adjectives to begin to describe it. When 25 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: taking what I know of the science of trauma and 26 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: forensics and melding that with what these kids experienced in 27 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: their last moments. 28 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: The Lori Valoda Bell trial is going on. Tyler was 29 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: sixteen years old, two weeks away from her seventeenth birthday. 30 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: JJ just a little fella seven years old, and they 31 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: went missing. When we first started covering this case, it 32 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: was a missing child case. There are two children missing 33 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 2: and we don't know where they are. But her mom, 34 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: Tylie's mom, JJ's is in Hawaii and has married some guy. 35 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: So we were backpedaling trying to put these pieces together. 36 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: We already know that JJ and Tylie are both gone. 37 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: They're both passed away, which is what we're going to 38 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: actually talk talk about today. But the reality is it 39 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: started as a missing person's case with some very religious 40 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: adults involved. I've got a grandchild Jjy's age. It has 41 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: been very emotional to think of what happened to this 42 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: boy and his older sister, and it was done at 43 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: the hands of people who were supposed to love and 44 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: care for them. I have so many questions, and I'm 45 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: praying that you're going to be able to give us 46 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: the answers that will at least help us understand the 47 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: mechanics of what took place. 48 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: I've been scratching my head over David. Let me say 49 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: this going into this conversation, I've been talking with some 50 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: of my friends that are on the ground in the courtroom, 51 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: who are physically there, in the news media, and to 52 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: a person, they described the reaction of people in the 53 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: courtroom and even members of the jury. There were people 54 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: they were so disgusted by what they saw that they 55 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: turned to way. There were people wiping tears away. They 56 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: couldn't bear to look at it. As a matter of fact, 57 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: the judge at one point in time had to step 58 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: in and say, Okay, that's going to be the limit 59 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: of what we're going to be showing here, because it 60 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: was so so horrible what they were bearing witness to. 61 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: And I always have to go back to what is 62 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: expected of a jury member. Maybe one of the most 63 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: honorable things you can do in this country. I know, 64 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: people group about it and complain that they got called 65 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: away from work, But when you think about the privilege 66 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: that it is to sit on a jury and you're 67 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: common everyday folk, people like me, Dave. I haven't seen everything, 68 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: but I've seen a lot of stuff. It's tough, and 69 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: a case like this is even tougher, but just all 70 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: the more so for these jury members that are having 71 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: to take all of this in and view it in 72 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: balance and try to understand and try to take the 73 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: measure of it. I mean, really try to take the 74 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: measure of it. You mentioned your grand baby. I got 75 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: grand babies too. You sit there, you think about it, 76 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: and you think, oh my god. We can try to 77 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: understand precisely what happened. In leading us along this journey. 78 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: We had the benefit of having a man named doctor 79 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: Garth Warren who is actually with the Ada County Corners 80 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: office in over in Boise. And just so folks know, 81 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: JJ and Tilly's remains were not examined in that location, 82 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: that remote location over in eastern Idaho. They were transported 83 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: to Aida County to that Corners facility there. Folks might 84 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: not understand, but if you don't have a facility particularly 85 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: that is manned by a forensic pathologist. You most of 86 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: these little counties will contract with a bigger county that does. 87 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: That's what happened here, So their remains had to be 88 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: transported literally all the way across the state. It's a 89 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: painstaking process. 90 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: To back up a minute, I mentioned and early on 91 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: this was at first a missing childcase. Two children were missing. 92 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: Their mom was not sharing information about their whereabouts. She 93 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: was telling all kinds of different stories to people who 94 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: knew her that they were with a friend, they were 95 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: with a relative, I'm keeping them safe. And what ended 96 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: up happening through the investigation of law enforcement and the FBI, 97 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: everybody being involved. That's how they were led to on 98 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: June ninth, twenty twenty finding two separate burial sites at 99 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 2: Chad day Bell's house. So we actually started the looking 100 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: for JJ and Tyley in November of twenty nineteen, when 101 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: their grandmother asked for a welfare check on JJ. Hadn't 102 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: talked to him in a couple of months, very concerned, 103 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: and that's where this story began for many of us. 104 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: So I said, we were backing up right at the beginning. 105 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: The bodies are recovered on June ninth of twenty twenty. 106 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: For you, Joseph Scott Morgan, what are some things you're 107 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: thinking about? What do you need defined as a forensic 108 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: person to determine how these people were killed and why 109 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 2: are they where they are? 110 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: It's not just what's beneath the surface day, it's what 111 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: the ground is going to tell you in that area, 112 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: particularly when you have a clandestine grave, and that's what 113 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: both of these cases would be considered. That's the way 114 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: we determine a clandestine grave. That means a location where 115 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: remains have been purposely buried in order to hide them. 116 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: There are certain changes that you look for externally on 117 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: the surface, for turned soil, all those sorts of things 118 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: that don't quite match up. And these are two distinct 119 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: locations where these children were found. You know, when we 120 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: think about Tilely, you know a lot has been made 121 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: of the fact that her remains were found immediately adjacent 122 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: to what they refer to as a pet cemetery. Animals 123 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: were buried there, that we're associated with this familial group, 124 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: which we could go down that rabbit hole all day long. 125 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: When you begin to assess how the remains of your 126 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: precious daughter are treated, and that you discard them amongst 127 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: the carcasses of dead animals, and of course there's a 128 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: burn pit there too. And what was really striking to 129 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: me when I first initially saw the aerial photography in 130 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: this case is I could see, before the ert the 131 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: evidence responsing from the FBI showed up, there was like 132 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: a ring around this area where they had. You know, 133 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: you could tell that the family had at one point 134 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: time pulled up large wooden benches. They were like fell 135 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: trees that were kind of sliced down. You could sit 136 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: on them, and they'd created a ring. Eventually all those 137 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: are moved, but you can see the initial image of 138 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: this and it conjured up, you know, sitting around a 139 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: bonfire with your family playing the guitar, singing, making schmores 140 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: and all of these sorts of things. You know, that 141 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: kind of joyous environment, and then you marry that up 142 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: with this horrific finding when they began to tried to 143 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: discern where she was, and her grave was not that 144 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: deep below the initial surface. As a matter of fact, 145 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: we find out that there's spent some animal activity around there. 146 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: But just to kind of frame this, when you see 147 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: her location, you know that it's adjacent to where things 148 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: were burned, all right, maybe bonfires, maybe just trash off 149 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: of this farming area. You walk a distance over, there's 150 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: what appears to be a dried pond. It's like a 151 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: big defect in the ground. It almost looks like a crater, 152 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: but it's real green. It was real green in lush. 153 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: But there was one area where soil had been turned 154 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: and it's right on the edge, and that's where JJ's 155 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: remains were found. So he's in a completely different area. 156 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: It looks kind of very peaceful compared to where Tiley was, 157 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: where there was a lot of traffic. There was no 158 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: traffic in that area where JJ was found. Soil had 159 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: not been turned around the surrounding area. You could tell 160 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: there was not a lot of foot traffic excepting that 161 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: one location where he was deposited. And these two children 162 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: were treated completely different day, completely different, And you're really 163 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: learning a lot about how their bodies were handled, and 164 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: I think going along with that, you begin to learn 165 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: a lot about the people that would have done this 166 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: level of harm to these poor innocent children. You learn 167 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: a lot about people in two areas, how you treat 168 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: your prisoners and how you treat your dead. I think 169 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: you can learn a lot about society, you can learn 170 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: a lot about behavior of people. And when it comes 171 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: down to jj Valo, his body was I don't know, 172 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: there's really no other term to use other than cocooned. 173 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: He was cocooned. He was protected to a certain degree. 174 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: He certainly protected from the elements. You know, when you 175 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: compare how his mortal remains were treated compared to his sister, 176 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: you've got a big difference here, huge difference for him. 177 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: His body, his little body, his little broken body was able, 178 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: I think, in this particular case to begin to tell 179 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: a tale because it was so very intactive. 180 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: When you get to the scene and police have done 181 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 2: their investigation, they have gotten the search warrants, and they've 182 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 2: laid out how they came about to search this property. 183 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: The police don't know the exact place. I mean, they 184 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: have a really good idea. In this particular case, police 185 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: were watching Chad day Bell. He was on the property. 186 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: It was his property, and they were watching Chad as 187 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: they began working in that backyard. And the detective noticed 188 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: that Chad day Bell kept watching where they were looking 189 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: and kept following with his eyes looking at the same 190 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: spot like they haven't found him yet. They haven't found 191 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: him yet. They noticed where he was looking and that 192 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: sent the detectives on where we need to dig right 193 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: here for JJ. They didn't know JJ versus Tiley at 194 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: that point, but that's how they actually figured out where 195 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: to start. What is the process that they go into. 196 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: I can't imagine them pulling out big shovels and just 197 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: digging in deep. 198 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: No. No, First off, you have to document everything you 199 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: can with photography and videography before you ever put what 200 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: we call spade to dirt and turn any bit of 201 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: soil whatsoever. And even before the tools come out. You're 202 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: going to do what's referred to as gridding off an area. 203 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: And if you just imagine a grid coordinates only on 204 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: a smaller scale, and you make each one of the 205 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: little squares maybe a foot by a foot, and you 206 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: have several of these along the way and you label these, 207 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: you're going into a specific grid, and that way you 208 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: can document everything that's contained within that grid, because you 209 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: don't know what you're going to find. So as you 210 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: take the soil out and place it into a bucket, 211 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: which is where it would have gone, and those buckets 212 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: are labeled, they sift through everything until you get down 213 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: to the body as it is. And in JJ's case, 214 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: I'd mentioned the word cocooning, and he is wrapped, He's 215 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: wrapped in plastic bags. He certainly got a white bag 216 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: over his head. I can specifically imagine because of men 217 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: in circumstances like this, you look down and you begin 218 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: to take the measure of what you have before you, 219 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: and you have a body what appears to be a 220 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: body that is covered in plastic. I've had them in 221 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: our curtains, tarps. This queen those sorts of things where 222 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: bodies are wrapped up like that and you don't know 223 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: what is inside. And so it was at that moment 224 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: when they got down to that point where they had 225 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: recovered all of the surrounding dirt. Because you don't know 226 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: what you're going to find in there, you have to 227 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: save all this stuff and sift through it. The investigator 228 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: then opened up the plastic bag, the outer black plastic 229 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: bag that JJ was wrapped in total, and determined that 230 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: he did, in fact have remains here. 231 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: When they made that slit in the bag. In the testimony, 232 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: they described brown hair and a crowning. I can't imagine 233 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: the feeling that comes over you when you see hair 234 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: you know, this is who you've been looking for. What 235 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: is that like? Does that not really impact these individuals 236 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: for the rest of their life with that trauma? 237 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: That doesn't right at the moment, because you're if you've 238 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: got your clinical hat on which you should to protect 239 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: you while you're there, there's certain things you just can't escape. 240 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: But there's a bit of relief too in a case 241 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: like this, because you know that you've been looking for 242 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: him and all those those sweet pictures that we see 243 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: of JJ all over the place. You know his hair 244 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: is like swept to one side, I mean, and it's 245 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: like parted on one side and kind of swept. He's 246 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: got long bangs and you can get an ideas to 247 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: the color of his hair. And they knew that this 248 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: is they're getting into. You know, they're getting into the 249 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: arena where they're going to begin to narrow down at 250 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: least visual identification at this point in time. It's one 251 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: of the boxes that'll be ticked at that moment time. 252 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: But you listen, there's a real temptation that comes upon you. 253 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: You have to restrain yourself at a scene like this, Dave, 254 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: because you want to just go in and just rip 255 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: the bag open, right and just dig in and see what. 256 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: That's the worst thing you can do. That is the 257 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: absolutely worst thing that you can do, because you're not 258 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: in a controlled environment. First off, you've got a dozen 259 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: hands around you, you've got everybody peeking over and wanting 260 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: to see, and at just the baseline, you're going to 261 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: destroy it. For every cut that you make in that back, 262 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: every compromise of the structural integrity of that bag, you 263 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: begin to potentially ruin any evidence that's there. Because all 264 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: this stuff is very fragile. Oh my god, it's so fragile. 265 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: So when you remove this body, you have to lift 266 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: it up and then what we generally do is take 267 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: a clean white sheet and that clean white sheet is 268 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: placed into an open body back. The sheet is then 269 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: folded around the body, which in Jaja's case is contained 270 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: is cocooned like we mentioned, and then you zip the 271 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: bag up and then you seal it with a lock. 272 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: That's where your chain of custody actually begins. Remember, the 273 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: body is the biggest piece of evidence you have. So 274 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: there are these little red locks, and they actually talked 275 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: about them in court, little red locks that you use 276 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: that have numbers on them, and that thing is not 277 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: broken until it gets to the morgue, and the forensic 278 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: pathologist will look at it and they'll annotate it in 279 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: their notes. They say, I observed a red body bag 280 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: lock with the number, and then they take a pair 281 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: of scissors and they say, and they'll including their report. 282 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: I cut this away myself, So they confirmed this chain 283 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: of custody all along the way. You have to because 284 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: you know you've got a body, Dave, that's traveling over 285 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: one hundred miles, it's going to be in a vehicle 286 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: traveling down and people don't think about the logistics of this. 287 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: Does the driver stop along the way? Is the driver 288 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: with the body the entire time? Did they stop off 289 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: and get something to eat? Did they stop off at 290 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: a gas station? People think, oh my god, they wouldn't 291 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: do that. Yes they do. I've actually known people that 292 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: have gone through drive through restaurants with bodies and cars. 293 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: And because of that, we've taken steps to document the 294 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: time that they leave, the mileage that's on the odometer. 295 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: What time did you arrive at the final destination? What 296 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: was your mileage there? Because everything has to be accounted for. 297 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: And you want that. And it's a daunting task just 298 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: to remove the body from the scene and get it 299 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: downrange to where it has to be depositive, which is 300 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: going to be Ada County, Idaho. 301 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 2: We all have heard the stories of the odor. These 302 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: bodies have been in the ground for a considerable amount 303 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 2: of time. Is there still after all these months? Is 304 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: there still an odor? Is it something that you can 305 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: smell once you start uncovering. 306 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: Yes, and yes, the deeper you dig down, the more 307 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: profound the odor is. So in JJ's case, what I 308 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: am understanding from testimony and from my colleagues that have 309 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: seen the images, he was actually appreciable. His face was appreciable. 310 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: You could look at that image that they showed on 311 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: the screen and you could say that's JJ. He was intact. Now, 312 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: the color changes that come along with decomposition had been 313 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: occurring when death. Our bodies go from kind of a 314 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: modeled color to kind of a red and kind of 315 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: a greenish color than to black, and you could still 316 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: appreciate his features. His body was intact to the point 317 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: where you could look at his body and at least 318 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: visually get a general confirmation of identification. That's not valid 319 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: in my world, I like to have scientific confirmation, and 320 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: I just like to eyeball the body and say that 321 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: is in fact this person. I don't even like families 322 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: to do that because you never know what's going to happen. 323 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: There's always something along the way. So I like to 324 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: get scientific confirmation with this fingerprints or dental or certainly DNA. 325 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: The process is just beginning. Now. What happened, you know 326 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: when you got to remain soon more? Well, one of 327 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: the things that was so glaring, you know, this pajamas 328 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: that JJ was last seen and as he's being born 329 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: by Alex Cox on his shoulder, he's wearing those pajamas day, 330 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: he's wearing those pajamas. 331 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 2: That was part of the testimony that came up with 332 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: David Worwick, the boyfriend at the time of Lori Valle's 333 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 2: best friend Melanie Gibb. He was there that weekend of 334 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 2: September twenty second, twenty third, and he's gave a description 335 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: of Alex Cox carrying JJ into the Valo apartment and 336 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 2: it was a very beautiful thing that he described JJ 337 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: with his head resting on Alex's shoulder and Alex taking 338 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: his nephew upstairs to the bedroom. He described the clothes, 339 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: even though he said, I don't know exactly, I can't 340 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: remember one hundred percent, but I think he actually by 341 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: saying I think he was wearing, you know, and he 342 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: described the clothing that JJ was found in, and that 343 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: if you were watching the trial, you're going or listening 344 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: to it, you're wondering, why is he saying this? Well, 345 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: that's why they knew the answer. 346 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, they knew the answer. And I think that many 347 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: people had and there have been people that have suspected 348 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: that JJ may have been deceased when Alex was carrying 349 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: along that night. I don't believe that was the case. 350 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and reveal this right now because one 351 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: of the things that came up in testimony was that 352 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 1: when they were able to do toxicology, and remember they 353 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't really have blood or urine to do talks with JJ. 354 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: So that means that you at autopsy, what you have 355 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: to do is you have to take organ samples. These 356 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: are going to be prefixed organ samples, so you can't 357 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: like expose them to formuline, which is a type of formaldehyde. 358 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: You have to get them in the current state in 359 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: which you find them and We've talked about this before, 360 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: but they're spun down at that moment in time to 361 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: liquefy them at liver in particular, because liver is it's 362 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: like a gigantic filter in our body and it holds 363 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: onto a lot of the toxins and whatnot. But what 364 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: they did find in JJ's system was actually gamma hydroxy 365 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: butyrate which GHB, which is a rape drug. Now people 366 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: will say, ah, that's like an aha moment, you know, 367 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: light bulb goes off, and people thought that maybe he 368 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: had been poisoned. That's probably not the case because let 369 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: me kind of throw this out to you, Dave. In decomposition, 370 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: GHB is actually produced and it's very in the process 371 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: of decomposition, just like people realize like chloroform is actually 372 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: produced in the decomposition process. The problem that doctor Warren 373 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: had in a case, and any physician has when you 374 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: begin to talk about talks and trying to understand what's 375 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: on board, is that when you're out down your timeline 376 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: like this from the sense of decomposition, you can't get 377 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: a quantified amount of something. You can qualify it. You know, 378 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: the machinery will tell you that. Yet this is present, 379 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: but to what degree is at present? It's not really 380 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 1: measurable because one of the things any drug you can 381 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: think of cocaine, for instance, cocaine actually if you look 382 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: at it for folks that are not familiar with lab results, 383 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: is you know that cocaine actually has a therapeutic level 384 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: because cocaine has been used for medical purposes, so it 385 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: has a therapeutic range. So everything, all these numbers are variable. 386 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: You can't put that kind of fine point on a 387 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: body decomposing. So I think that it's significant that GHB 388 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: was in his system to a certain degree, but based 389 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: on the fact that there was so much decomposition, or 390 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: that he was downranged that far, you just can't quantify it. 391 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: And so I think some folks are probably they were 392 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: hoping that you would have that definitively there as a 393 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: cause of death for him. There have been many times 394 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: in my career where I was assisting with an autopsy 395 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: and I would look down at the remains that we 396 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: were examining, and you have kind of this moment where 397 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: you begin to understand what you're in the middle of. 398 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: You have this appreciation for how fragile this person's remains are, 399 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: that are before you and all of the evidence contained 400 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: within and without. I've hesitated before. I actually had a 401 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: forensic withologist look at me one time. We were doing 402 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: an autopsy on a lady that had been bound and gagged, 403 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: and I kind of froze for a moment, and he 404 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: looked at me and said, what are you waiting for. 405 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: Let's get on with this. I was trying to understand 406 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: our process in my mind, what I needed to do 407 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: to remove these bindings from this lady's hands. She had 408 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: been tied with the rope because I didn't want to 409 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: screw anything up. I can imagine there's a hesitancy on 410 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: the part of the pro sector. The pathologist that's there 411 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: and his assistants, his team. They want to make sure 412 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: that they have everything done and documented, X rays, photography, measurements, 413 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: all of that stuff has to be done before they 414 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: go in and begin to remove all these layers that 415 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: JJ's packaged in. 416 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: When it comes right down to it, you have taken 417 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 2: care of all of the business necessary to get JJ's 418 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: remains up out of the ground. He has been transported, 419 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 2: it's been documented, and now he's on the table. And 420 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: so far they cut a small slit and that's it, right. 421 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: He's then put in the body bag with the white sheet. 422 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: He's now on the table in a clinical setting. And 423 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: what happens now and what can you expect to find? 424 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: I can tell you what they've done. They've done full 425 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: body X rays on them because they don't know what 426 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: they're going to find when they open that bag. You 427 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: don't know what a cause of death is at this point. 428 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: Remember you, You know I was talking about toxicology and whatnot. 429 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: That's weeks away. At this point, you have no idea 430 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: what you're looking at here. And so they'll do head 431 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: to two X rays before they do that, and they'll 432 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: turn that around really quickly. They'll develop them and throw 433 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: them up on the whiteboard, and they'll look for any 434 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: kind of what we refer to as radio opaque items 435 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: that are in there, like broken knife blades or certainly 436 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: projectiles from a firearm. You want to avoid as you're 437 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: removing this tape. You don't want to go ripping and roaring. 438 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: Here's a couple of reasons why. First off, with the tape, 439 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: if you begin to kind of cut it, then you're 440 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: compromising the integrity of that tape to dislodge it. Okay, 441 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: just to facilitate opening the bag. So you don't know 442 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: what's going to be contained on either aspect of that tape, 443 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: like on the smooth surface that's on the backside, the 444 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: non tacky surface, and then on the underside which I 445 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: can get into that certainly, But then you think about 446 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: the bag itself. Well, these bags are non to a 447 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: certain degree. They're a non porous surface. They're not exactly 448 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: like glass, but it's you're not dealing with wood like 449 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: rough wood either. There are any number of times when 450 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: you can actually get fingerprints off of bags. Certainly the 451 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: interior heat and humidity play a role in this, but 452 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: you have to work from the perspective that anything that 453 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: is on the surface of that bag has the potential 454 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: of leaving something behind, and that could be a latent 455 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: print that's left behind, an oil or here's something, Dave 456 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 1: that not many people have heard of before. We have 457 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: something to refer to as plastic prints, and a plastic 458 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: print is all of our listeners just imagine. And this 459 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: is something I do with my granddaughter. She loves Plato. 460 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: She loves plato in hadn't got the silly putty yet, 461 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: but she loves Plato, Harper and I will be playing 462 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: with Plato. You know, if you press your finger into 463 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: the Plato and remove it, you can actually appreciate your fingerprint. 464 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: It's the same principle with duct tape, with that tacky, 465 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: the glue, the adhesive that's on there. Did you know 466 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: that you can actually press your finger and I urge anybody. Look, 467 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: if you've ever wrapped Christmas presents and you're in a 468 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: frenzy on Christmas Eve, you know how kind of wadded 469 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: the tape gets and it'll get stuck to your hand 470 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: you're trying to get it off. Well, you're leaving a 471 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 1: plastic print. It's not oil dependent, okay, because that's on 472 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: smooth surfaces. You leave a print behind because and it 473 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: transfers from these fatty lipids that are on the surface 474 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: of your fingers. Okay, it's easily compromised. But when you 475 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: talk about leaving it behind in this adhesive that's resilient, dude, 476 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: it really is. And so you can actually image that. 477 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: There's any number of sprays that you can apply to 478 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: this that'll kind of capture it, and you can get 479 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: beautiful photographs of this stuff and they can be matched 480 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: up with people. So it's akin to almost like walking 481 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: through a minefield because you don't because you can't see 482 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: anything when you're doing it. So you have to assume 483 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: that every place you put your hand in order to 484 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: remove tape or whatever the case might be, that could 485 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: lead to a compromise. 486 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: Joe, let me ask you. You're observing the body or 487 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: your observed. You know the bag, okay, and you see tape, 488 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: you see bags, you see all of this overall, and 489 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 2: you're making not just mental notes but physical notes as 490 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: you begin to unravel this, whether it's duct tape or bags, 491 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: what is that process for documenting? And how do you 492 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 2: get to because your goal here is to find out 493 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: how this person died. 494 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: Correct in the case of JJ Valow, if they've already 495 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: done X rays and they don't see any obvious signs 496 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: of bullets or knife blades that are broken off, or 497 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: fractures that might result from blunt force trauma like he 498 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: had a skull crushed. As horrible as that is, then 499 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: you begin to think, well, is it strugg related or 500 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: is this something else? And you begin to exclude things, 501 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: and you know, doctor Warren's conclusion relative to JJ was 502 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: that his remains demonstrate rated to them based upon how 503 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: that white bag I remember I mentioned a white bag 504 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: earlier in this episode was wrapped around his head with 505 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: multiple links of this tape. That his death resulted from suffocation. 506 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: That's a diagnosis of exclusion. Is What that means is 507 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: that you have gotten to this point you don't have 508 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: any other answers to what may have brought about his death. 509 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 2: Are you suggesting that he was alive when they put 510 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: the bag on his head? 511 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I am. And you know how I know that, 512 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: day tell you I know it. He actually had marks 513 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: on his little fingers that would be consistent with a struggle. 514 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: These are anti mortem, which means, of course, all my listeners, 515 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, know this prior to death. That's where these 516 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,959 Speaker 1: insults came from. He's got these marks that are on 517 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: his wrist. His hands were actually bound with duct tape. 518 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: They were overlapped on top of one another, and multiple 519 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: twists of this tape were facilitated like that. So imagine, 520 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: if you want to get a sense of how horrific 521 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: this is, if you have ever been in a position 522 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: where you've had to struggle to breathe, that's what this 523 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: child's faced with his brain is screaming, I need oxygen, 524 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: and it's at that point in time. Let me paint 525 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: this picture for you a little bit more in depth. 526 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: This is a child that had to wear a diaper 527 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: at his age. This child was totally dependent upon the 528 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: adults in his life to take care of it. He 529 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: had physical issues, he had developmental issues. And whoever did 530 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,719 Speaker 1: this put a plastic bag over this baby's head and 531 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: turned that tape over and over and over again and 532 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: blocked his airway. He could not uptake oxygen at all, 533 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: and he's struggling. That primal b is kicking in and 534 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: he's fighting. He's fighting. However, he could in order to 535 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: try to break the surface of the proverbial water just 536 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: to get a breath, and he couldn't. It wasn't there 537 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: any longer. 538 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 2: The one thing that a lot of us can hold 539 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: on to when we cover these stories is that the 540 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: victim didn't suffer. But now you're telling me the exact opposite. 541 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: And you were able to determine this by the way 542 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: his body was found in the ground, that not only 543 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 2: was he murdered by probably a loved one, but that 544 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: he suffered and knew who did it and what they 545 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: were doing when it was happening. 546 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying that plainly, Yeah he had an awareness, and 547 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: yes he did suffer. That conclusion is being drawn by 548 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: what doctor Warren had stated. There was evidence there that 549 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: he had struggled, he had fought for his life. People 550 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: use that term, they throw it around, to what degree 551 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: do you have the ability to fight for your life 552 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: if you're a small child and you've got the hands 553 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: of an adult or adult on you facilitating your death. 554 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: In order to honor both Tyley and JJ, We're going 555 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: to have two separate episodes detailing the information that we 556 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: have surrounding their deaths and the findings of the forensic 557 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: pathologists and the forensic anthropologist. Tune in Thursday for our 558 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: follow up episode where we will be discussing the death 559 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: of Tyler Ryan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.