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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan Debbie Collier. I can't

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Speaker 1: say that name without scratching my head a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because arguably her death is one of the most bizarre

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Speaker 1: that certainly I've covered in the past I don't know,

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Speaker 1: two years probably and now we have some answers, and

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about this update involving the

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Speaker 1: death of this fifty nine year old office manager from Georgia.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Am I glad to have my buddy Dave mac with

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Speaker 1: me today. Dave is a crime reporter for Crime Online.

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Speaker 1: This case, this is something that we've covered I don't

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Speaker 1: know for several months now, I think, and certainly it

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Speaker 1: left us all a bit fuddled. I think because just

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Speaker 1: in and of itself, the fact that her death was

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Speaker 1: so closely associated with a fire, it was in isolation,

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Speaker 1: kind of a very remote area, and there was nothing

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Speaker 1: apparently stolen or missing from her. It was just this

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Speaker 1: kind of standalone event that's had a lot of people

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Speaker 1: really really asking a lot of questions. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: do we actually have answers now? I think we have some.

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Speaker 1: She's a fifty nine year old who worked as an

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Speaker 1: office manager for a real estate company in Athens, Georgia. Athens,

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Speaker 1: Georgia is outside of Atlanta. It's where the Georgia Bulldogs play,

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Speaker 1: and that does come into play here. Okay, so from

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Speaker 1: a timeline of events, on September tenth, Debbie Collier sent

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Speaker 1: a Venmo payment to her daughter at three seventeen PM.

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Speaker 1: That Venmo payment was for two three hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: five dollars and it had a cryptic message, they are

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Speaker 1: not going to let me go love you. There is

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Speaker 1: a key to the house in the blue flower pot

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Speaker 1: by the door. It's set off alarm bells because her daughter,

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Speaker 1: Amanda was not expecting this payment. From all we can

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Speaker 1: find out, Debbie Collier had never sent a payment that

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Speaker 1: large through Venmo. That's what started all of this. Amanda

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Speaker 1: calls her dad, Debbie's husband. He's been parking cars for

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Speaker 1: the Georgia Bulldocks football game since nine o'clock that morning.

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Speaker 1: He gets home around four and they start talking try

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Speaker 1: to figure out what happened. Around six o'clock, they call

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Speaker 1: nine one one. We don't know where she is, we

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Speaker 1: haven't seen her, and we have this crazy message. It

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Speaker 1: was the next day, September eleventh, investigators find her car.

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Speaker 1: She had a rental van because her car hit was

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Speaker 1: in the shop. She'd been in a car wreck. She's

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Speaker 1: driving a rental van and they used the si XM

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Speaker 1: radio in that rental van the Habersham County Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 1: They alerted deputies to the location of this Chrysler Pacifica

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Speaker 1: that she had rented, and boom, they were able to

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Speaker 1: find the vehicle. It's about an hour, about sixty miles

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Speaker 1: away from her home, in an area that she didn't

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Speaker 1: normally go. They find her car, and then they find

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Speaker 1: her body. It's down a ravine. She's holding on to

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Speaker 1: a small tree branch. She's dead. There is obviously been

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Speaker 1: a fire, and she's partially clothed the burn. If you remember, Joe,

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Speaker 1: we were told the burning was on her stomach. Well,

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Speaker 1: the timeline of events, we know that she did stop

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Speaker 1: at a family dollar shore a couple of miles away

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Speaker 1: from where her body was found prior to her death, obviously,

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Speaker 1: and she bought some items. Those items were all found

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Speaker 1: at the location where her body was So from a

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Speaker 1: timeline standpoint, we know where she was. We know what

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Speaker 1: she was doing prior to her death. We don't know why,

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Speaker 1: but we know what and where. So here we go.

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Speaker 1: They've told us from the beginning, partially burned, partially clad.

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Speaker 1: The burning is on her stomach. They released this autopsy

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Speaker 1: report and Joe's got Morgan. I'm begging you to tell

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Speaker 1: us what it means, because I'm reading this and I'm

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Speaker 1: going somebody's lying super bizarre stuff. First off, let's go

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Speaker 1: back you had mentioned. You know, we've gotten several different

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Speaker 1: reports in regards to Miss Collier's death relative to the

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Speaker 1: status of the clothing. You know, clothing is something that

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Speaker 1: we'd look at. We begin to think about what was

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Speaker 1: the status of the clothing. First off, were they clothed?

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Speaker 1: And the first thing that comes up when you think

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Speaker 1: about these things, and I'm not saying that this happened

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Speaker 1: in this case, but when you associate someone being absent clothing,

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Speaker 1: particularly a lady, you're automatically thinking, well, there was some

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Speaker 1: kind of assault that had taken place, some kind of

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Speaker 1: potential sexual assault. When I hear this initially and they're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: she was clothed, we've heard clothes, and we've heard partially clothed,

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Speaker 1: and we've heard naked, and so you know, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to kind of make sense of that. Way I have

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Speaker 1: heard now was that there was some remnant of clothing

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Speaker 1: at least beneath her legs, possibly charred. That clothing remnant

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Speaker 1: that is there you begin to ask these questions first off,

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Speaker 1: or these trousers that she had on, pants, jeans, whatever

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Speaker 1: the case might be, and can they be tied back

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Speaker 1: to her. Many times, when you find a body that is, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, in a prone position where they're laying on

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Speaker 1: their belly, or you have an individual that's in a

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Speaker 1: soupon position where they're laying on their back and they

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Speaker 1: haven't been moved at all, and they're wearing clothing. The

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Speaker 1: clothing on the top side involving a fire will at

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Speaker 1: least completely or partially be burned away. But sometimes if

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Speaker 1: you look beneath them, those areas are protected from the

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Speaker 1: flame the heat, and you can have sometimes tags that

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Speaker 1: you can examine, you can match up sizes, all those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. But there's something else that you look

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Speaker 1: for with clothing and fire, and this is significant in

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Speaker 1: this case. That is, when you collect this clothing and

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Speaker 1: it is associated with fire, we actually take clothing in

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Speaker 1: cases of our sun, that sort of thing, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't just have to be clothed, it can be other items,

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Speaker 1: and we put them in these the only way I

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Speaker 1: can really describe them are these metallic paint cans. And

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Speaker 1: you say, wow, that's interesting. Yeah, So we use these

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Speaker 1: for evidence collection. And what happens is is that if

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Speaker 1: there is any accelerant and when I say accelerant, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about lighter fluid, certainly gasoline, kerosene, any of these

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Speaker 1: types of elements, as the clothing begins to settle into

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the can because of gravity, the fumes,

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Speaker 1: if there's anything left, begins to rise to the top

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Speaker 1: of that can internally, and a big I don't know's

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Speaker 1: it's hard to kind of describe for folks, but just

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Speaker 1: understand that it looks like a gigantic needle is inserted

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Speaker 1: into the top of that can and the air within

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Speaker 1: the can is drawn off in the lab and then

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Speaker 1: once that air is drawn off, guess what they can do?

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Speaker 1: They begin to test it. And we know that the

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Speaker 1: vapors from an acceleroant, I mean, we've all smelled cass right,

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Speaker 1: or maybe charcoal, light or fluid maybe kerosene has a

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Speaker 1: particular odor, right, so it's in a gaseous state, you

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Speaker 1: can smell it. That's something that can't be quantified. Smell

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Speaker 1: is we can qualify it, say gee, that smells like gas.

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Speaker 1: But what we want our measurements. We want to get

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Speaker 1: a specific chemical identity. They're talking about that there was

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Speaker 1: a melted gas can in the immediate vicinity of her body.

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Speaker 1: So I want to know if the gas that may

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Speaker 1: have been associated with that melted gas can, if there

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Speaker 1: was anything left from that is associated with any kind

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Speaker 1: of accelerant that may have been on her clothing, and

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Speaker 1: try to marry that up. That's one part of this

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Speaker 1: along the way, the evidentry issue that's separate from the

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Speaker 1: body itself, because you know, when you begin to look

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Speaker 1: at what they're saying, at least was revealed in this

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Speaker 1: autopsy report that was released by the State of Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and this is very curious. They're saying that the burns

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Speaker 1: that she has on the body. Remember you'd mentioned this day,

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Speaker 1: you talked about how they had initially talked about how

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Speaker 1: she had burning on her abdomen, and that was kind

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Speaker 1: of it was kind of very limited at that moment time.

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Speaker 1: But now they're talking they're using terms like leathery skin.

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Speaker 1: That what they're driving at here. When they're talking about

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Speaker 1: leathery skin, they're talking about desiccated skin. Skin that's that

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Speaker 1: is absent any kind of moisture. It's dried out, and

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Speaker 1: it's dried out as a result of being exposed to

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Speaker 1: intense heat. Also, we grade burns in degrees. We've all

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Speaker 1: heard about this first, second, third. You know that there's

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Speaker 1: even a fourth degree burning. You generally see it with

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Speaker 1: individuals that are deceased. They don't talk about fourth degree

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Speaker 1: burning in here, but they do talk about second third.

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Speaker 1: And guess where the concentration is, Well, it's her head

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Speaker 1: and her face and quite possibly the upper chest. So

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Speaker 1: what does that tell us, Well, it tells us that

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Speaker 1: there was a heavy concentration of some type of accelerant

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Speaker 1: or fuel source that was adjacent to that. Because listen,

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Speaker 1: people know what it's like to actually touch a stove

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Speaker 1: or get burned as a result of running your hands

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Speaker 1: or a flame. You get burned, but it's not burning

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Speaker 1: like when we think about something that is a continual,

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Speaker 1: constant fuel source for fire. Human tissue cannot sustain that

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Speaker 1: it just can't. You would have to have something else

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Speaker 1: there that would lead to a third degree burned. This

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Speaker 1: is very intense, and you're starting to get down into

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Speaker 1: not just the epidermis, in the dermis. Now you're starting

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Speaker 1: to get into potentially the subcue fat, which is that

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Speaker 1: layer just below the top layer of skin. Her hair

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Speaker 1: is probably missing, her face as in tensely burned in

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Speaker 1: her upper chest, so that means that more than likely

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Speaker 1: the accelerant was on top of her body, the top

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Speaker 1: of her head maybe had run down her face at

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Speaker 1: some point in time. I think the big question is

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Speaker 1: is this something that she did to herself sitting there

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Speaker 1: on the ground where she takes a container of gasoline

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Speaker 1: and pours it on top of her head and then

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Speaker 1: initiates the flame by striking a match or lighting a lighter,

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Speaker 1: which is something they haven't talked about the presence of,

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Speaker 1: or is this something that somebody else did to her?

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Speaker 1: In cases that I worked, where I have people that

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Speaker 1: have been burned, and certainly relative to homicide, many times

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Speaker 1: burning is used in order to cover up anything that

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Speaker 1: is left behind. But is it actually used as a

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Speaker 1: means to bring about one's on death? Well, there are

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Speaker 1: cases out there like that. You know, this is generally

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Speaker 1: referred to as self immolation. But here's the key. Most

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Speaker 1: of the time, when people self immolate, their doused in

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Speaker 1: gasoline or some type of other accelerant and they set

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Speaker 1: themselves on fire, you're going to have a product that

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Speaker 1: is produced relative to this burning. That's going to be

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Speaker 1: your own body, where you have hair and skin that's

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Speaker 1: initially burned, any clothing that's there, and any other item

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Speaker 1: that immediately surround the person. Say that they've put a

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Speaker 1: fuel source on top of them, like wood or something

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Speaker 1: like this to maintain the burning, and then they douse

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Speaker 1: themselves with an accelerant set themselves on fire, you would

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Speaker 1: find remnant of that. And Dave, she was found in

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Speaker 1: a wooded area, so we would expect when we open

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Speaker 1: up her body at autopsy that we would find particularly

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Speaker 1: in the trachea and that's our windpipe essentially, and into

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Speaker 1: our nose, in our mouth, into the windpipe, into the lungs,

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Speaker 1: you would expect to find evidence of debris. Dave, it

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Speaker 1: ain't there, brother, So does that mean that she was

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Speaker 1: burned after she died. That's a question that has not

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Speaker 1: been answered. They're ruling it as a suicide. They are

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Speaker 1: ruling it as a suicide. We have this kind of lining.

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Speaker 1: If you just think about the interior of your mouth,

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Speaker 1: you just kind of run your tongue around the interior

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Speaker 1: of your mouth. It's not too dissimilar from the same

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Speaker 1: surface that you have down into your airway. It's mucoid,

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Speaker 1: very soft and fleshy, and you look for debris in

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Speaker 1: this area. But you also look for what they referred

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Speaker 1: to as an inflammatory response. And they're saying that there

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Speaker 1: is this area in her trachea that would be indicative

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Speaker 1: of inhalation of superheated gas. Okay, superheated gas. So when

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Speaker 1: people inhale and there's intense flame around them, remember we're

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Speaker 1: trying to uptake oxygen every single second of the day.

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Speaker 1: That's what we do in order to survive. Even in

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Speaker 1: the midst of a very intense fire. You're inhaling to

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Speaker 1: try to grab that oxen it's there. And what does

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Speaker 1: fire or seek out, Well, it seeks out oxygen as

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Speaker 1: fuel source. It thrives on oxygen. It's consuming all of

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Speaker 1: the oxygen in the environment. So was she literally inhaling

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Speaker 1: the superheated gas that's being generated by the fire. The

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Speaker 1: problem is this, It could not have been sustainable, all right,

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Speaker 1: It would not have been in a sustainable event. And

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Speaker 1: so they're talking about her inhaling superheated gas and that

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Speaker 1: that brought about her death. It brought about her death

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Speaker 1: that quickly after a certain amount of tom that event

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Speaker 1: is going to pass, and she would still continue to breed,

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Speaker 1: you would think unless she went into some kind of

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Speaker 1: associated sudden cardiac event. I'm not talking about having a

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Speaker 1: heart attack, a mile cardial infarction, That's not what I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about. But you can get yourself into this position

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Speaker 1: where essentially your heart will stop as a result of

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Speaker 1: being exposed to this kind of trauma. Is that what

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Speaker 1: they're actually saying, because right now that's really the only

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Speaker 1: thing they have to hang their hand on. And let

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Speaker 1: me ask you this. Joe I mentioned in setting up

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Speaker 1: the timeline that Debbie Collier had gone to a family

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Speaker 1: dollar store and made very specific purchases. Again, we're talking

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Speaker 1: sixty miles away from her house, and she's at a

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Speaker 1: family dollar store she doesn't normally go to. She buys

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Speaker 1: a blue tarp, red toebag, paper towels, a torch lighter,

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Speaker 1: and a poncho. Those were the things she purchased at

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Speaker 1: the family dollar store, and all these items were found

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Speaker 1: in the area of her body and the fire. My

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Speaker 1: question is this. They've ruled it a suicide, and as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, saying it was the inhalation of the superheated

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Speaker 1: gases thermal injuries. They've also mentioned other things. But I

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Speaker 1: poured gas in my ditch to burn leaves one time,

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Speaker 1: and I had a whole bunch of leaves and I

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Speaker 1: poured too much gas. Okay, I let it soak in

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Speaker 1: a minute. I didn't realize how stupid I was being.

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Speaker 1: When I lit the leaves. It was an immediate explosion

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Speaker 1: and it knocked me down and shocked me. And had

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Speaker 1: I been closer to the leaves, I would have been burned.

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Speaker 1: If their theory of what happened is true, could it

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Speaker 1: have been that she was in some state of mind

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Speaker 1: where she bought these items. She has a gas can

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Speaker 1: that is also on the scene. As you mentioned, she

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Speaker 1: pours gas over something and leaning over, she doesn't realize

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Speaker 1: the power that this gas is going to have on her,

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Speaker 1: and she lights it and does what happened to me

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Speaker 1: in my front yard. I guess that that's certainly a possibility. However,

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Speaker 1: I have to go back and state that you were

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Speaker 1: talking about third degree burned, so this would not have

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Speaker 1: been I think that probably you might expect to see

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Speaker 1: a second degree event visualized on the surface of her skin.

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Speaker 1: You're starting to talk about third degree burning. That almost

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Speaker 1: implies that there was extended exposure to the flame in

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Speaker 1: order to achieve that level of trauma. And maybe that's

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Speaker 1: a residual effect of if she had been doused in

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Speaker 1: the flame and that there was an initial flash over

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Speaker 1: where she inhalated this superheated gas, the remnant of the

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Speaker 1: accelerant would still have to burn off of her skin

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Speaker 1: at that point in time. Maybe that's an answer. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that there's really enough to hang your hat on,

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Speaker 1: and we haven't seen the actual autopsy report because it

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Speaker 1: hasn't been made public at this point in time. However,

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Speaker 1: there are individuals that are commenting on it in the press.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they've seen it. You think about this and you think, well,

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Speaker 1: is there something else here? But according to one line

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Speaker 1: in the autopsy report, allegedly they're talking about what the

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Speaker 1: police saw, and the police are essentially opining that she

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Speaker 1: was there by herself and that's really and that that's

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Speaker 1: an indication to them at least that this was a suicide.

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Speaker 1: So you're telling me that's you're going with that, and

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Speaker 1: that's what you're going to hang your hat on. And

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Speaker 1: apparently that's the decision that was made by virtue of that.

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Speaker 1: The medical examiner made that decision based upon what the

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Speaker 1: police did or didn't see at the scene. One other

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Speaker 1: thing that's important here to remember. At autopsy, there is

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Speaker 1: a test that is run. It's called a carboxy hemoglobin level,

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Speaker 1: and you do it with a blood draw. What you're

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Speaker 1: looking for is the uptake of carbon in the system

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Speaker 1: and how it kind of gets into the bloodstream. This

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Speaker 1: gives an indication of protracted exposure because now you're beginning

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Speaker 1: to metabolize some of the stuff that's in the air

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Speaker 1: and floating around. And again when they inhale eco systemic

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, guess what carboxy hemoglobin level

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Speaker 1: was not going to say it was nil, but it was,

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Speaker 1: according to them, apparently within normal ranges of what people

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Speaker 1: would have in them on a regular day. When we

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Speaker 1: have cases where people have been exposed to fire and

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Speaker 1: they're in homes say, for instance, where the home is

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Speaker 1: kind of collapsing around them they're struggling to get out.

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Speaker 1: Their carboxy hemoglobin level will in fact be elevated because

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Speaker 1: they're inhaling these noxious gases that are in the environment

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Speaker 1: in which they normally dwell, so that gives you an

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Speaker 1: idea of long term exposure. The absence of a significant

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Speaker 1: carboxy hemoglobin level in her blood would suggest that this

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Speaker 1: was a very quick event. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: they did find in her system, and this is not

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Speaker 1: completely unexpected, is that she had hydrocodone in her system

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Speaker 1: and she had been taking this I think, if I

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Speaker 1: remember correctly, as a result of some kind of back

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Speaker 1: pain that she had had for a protracted period of time.

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Speaker 1: She was under medical care because chronic pain from a

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Speaker 1: back injury that she had lived with for a long time.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because in November, when all of this

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Speaker 1: first came out about inhalation of superheated gases and thermal

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Speaker 1: injuries and hydrocodone intoxication, that was what we were told,

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Speaker 1: and now that the autopsy has come out. This is

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Speaker 1: according to a source from Fox five in Atlanta, saying

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Speaker 1: although she had a prescription for the opioid pain killer.

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Speaker 1: The hydrocodone levels in her system surpassed the expected amount

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Speaker 1: roughly four times over. We've also heard her report You

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Speaker 1: and I both heard the same report that they were

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Speaker 1: at therapeutic levels. That's a confusion there, But I don't

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Speaker 1: know how much that would come into play. If you've

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Speaker 1: got eighty percent of her body burned, second and third

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Speaker 1: degree burns, as you've just indicated, that would have killed her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So which is it, I think is a big question

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Speaker 1: relative to these the levels of the hydrocodone. Wouldn't you

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Speaker 1: expect somebody to be burned after they were dead that

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Speaker 1: and doesn't this is there an indication that the burning

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Speaker 1: took place after death? That's hard to surmas based upon

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Speaker 1: the information that is coming in. If you're going to

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Speaker 1: have post mortem burning, that is, after death, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to have any evidence in the airway that they

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Speaker 1: have been inhaling anything. However, the one kind of bumping

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Speaker 1: the road with that is they have this change in

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Speaker 1: the tissue surfaces of her trachea that gives an indication

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Speaker 1: that she was exposed to these superheated gases, and that's

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Speaker 1: how they're coming back to this point that it's exposure

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Speaker 1: two superheated gases and that she inhaled it for a

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Speaker 1: moment and it's brought about her death. And oh, by

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Speaker 1: the way, she's also got hydro code on on board

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Speaker 1: and that's actually listed. It's like one of the contributing

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Speaker 1: factors here. So you kind of picked your poison here

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Speaker 1: along the way as to what you're going to call

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Speaker 1: this their default position on the manner of death, and

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Speaker 1: as we've talked about on bodybags, there's five of them

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Speaker 1: that you can choose from. Well, can we look at

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Speaker 1: this and say that it's an accident? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it possible that she accidentally set this fire?

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Speaker 1: And what would be the purpose of her setting and

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Speaker 1: fire in this location? Is there evidence that this is

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Speaker 1: some type of natural event. Well, no, they're not saying

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Speaker 1: anything about that. We're not talking about, you know, heart

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Speaker 1: disease or something else that you associated in the natural world,

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Speaker 1: that some kind of natural disease pathology. They're not discussing that.

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Speaker 1: What they are saying is that she had hydrocat on

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Speaker 1: on board and she was exposed to superheated gases. That's

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Speaker 1: what they're going with as their cause of death, and

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Speaker 1: their default position in this case is going to be suicide.

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Speaker 1: They're not arriving at any other conclusion other than she

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Speaker 1: doused herself apparently in gas and set herself on fire.

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Speaker 1: She happened to have the substance in her system, and

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Speaker 1: all of those things playing together wound up in her death,

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Speaker 1: and they're going to rule this as a suicide and

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Speaker 1: they're going to close this case. Dave, we're not flippant

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Speaker 1: in talking about suicide. If you or somebody you know

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Speaker 1: is suffering through anything that leads you to think that

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Speaker 1: maybe it's time to just call an end to life

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Speaker 1: as it is, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline

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Speaker 1: at one eight hundred two seven three talk. That's one

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Speaker 1: eight hundred two seventy three eight two five five. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: people will take a permanent fix for a temporary problem.

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Speaker 1: In this particular case, Joe, where they've really a suicide

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Speaker 1: saying she took her own life, I have to question.

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Speaker 1: She's holding on to a small thing coming out of

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Speaker 1: the ground. Her body is found down aways from where

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Speaker 1: the fire was. She's holding that tree with her hand

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Speaker 1: and she, now we're being told, burned. Over eighty percent

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Speaker 1: of her body. There are certain things that stick out

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Speaker 1: to me. And I'm just a journalist. Joe, you're a

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Speaker 1: professional at this. Does this sound or look like anything

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Speaker 1: you've ever heard would be a suicide? I have worked

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Speaker 1: cases of self emolation, but they got tell you, as

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00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: my granny would say, they're rare as hens teeth. It's

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Speaker 1: it's not something that you encounter, not like when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about suicides. You're talking about self inflicted gunshot wounds.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about hangings. Every now and then you'll have

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Speaker 1: drug gods. You find more, believe it or not, self

395
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: inflicted gunshot wounds and hangings than you do drug odes.

396
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Speaker 1: In my experience, in my little slice the bi self immolation,

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Speaker 1: just thinking back right now over my career work in

398
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Speaker 1: the corner of the medical examor over the course of

399
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Speaker 1: my career too, I think, and then peripherally with colleagues

400
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Speaker 1: maybe maybe in total, maybe four. So that that's what

401
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: makes this so bizarre for those of us that work

402
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Speaker 1: in forensics, when you hear that you have a case

403
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: like this of self immolation, I'll put it to you

404
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: this way. This case is the type of case that

405
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: you would go to a foreign at conference and you

406
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: would actually see papers presented on that's how significant this is.

407
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: I think one final thing when police are covering something

408
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Speaker 1: like this, Joe, I mean when you're saying that you

409
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 1: haven't seen that it's such a rare occurrence when police

410
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: officers are investigating something along these lines and release information

411
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Speaker 1: to the public. As we were told, at first, the

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Speaker 1: burning seemed to be minor and it was limited to

413
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: her stomach, and now we find out that it's eighty

414
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Speaker 1: percent of her body. Her face couldn't be identified. Do

415
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Speaker 1: police sometimes downplay what they've seen to the public to

416
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Speaker 1: spare the family or just because it's not fitting to

417
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: a certain degree, yeah, they will. I think most of

418
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: the time when police are making decisions about what will

419
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: and will not be released, paramount among all things for

420
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 1: them is to not compromise the case. If they have

421
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: information that they would not like released to the general

422
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: public because they suspect that this is something there than

423
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: as advertised. That's generally what their goal is to keep

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00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: it from the general public. And our working premise, and

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Speaker 1: I know many people in our audience have heard this term,

426
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: and I use it when I teach. Our working premise

427
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: is that all deaths, not some, not a few, but

428
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Speaker 1: all deaths are homicides until proven otherwise, and we have

429
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: to we have to be skeptical. We have to assume

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00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: that it is other than what we're seeing, because if

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00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: you if you don't cover all of your bases and

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00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: treat it with the same degree of care as you

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00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: would a homicide from the beginning, you're going to miss something.

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00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: You know, and early on I think that in miss

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00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: Collier's case, you know, they did, in fact treat it

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00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: as though it was a homicide. Certainly, I think because

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00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: it's so bizarre, it's such an outlier you find bodies

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00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: that are burned. Again, I go back to my earlier

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00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: supposition that you have this isolated event where you have

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00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: a body kind of lying out there in the woods

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00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: and let's face it, in in a very isolated area out

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00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: of you. Automatically you're going to think, well, wow, somebody

443
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: has brought her out here, they've doused her and gas,

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00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: they've done something to her, and they're trying to cover

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00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: their tracks. But apparently based upon what the police concluded

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00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: from the scene, and now that we've got this autopsy report,

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00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: based upon what the medical examiner as ruling says, they

448
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: don't think that it's a homicide. But we still don't know. No,

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00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: we still don't. We don't know why she sent two thousand,

450
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: three hundred and eighty five dollars by Venmo. We don't

451
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: know what the cryptic message meant. They're not going to

452
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: let me go. Some people have alluded to the fact

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00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: that she's got meds on board and that maybe that

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00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: had something to do with it. Really well, I mean,

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00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: she's been taking this medication regularly. Was there any other

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00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: substance in her system? Was it combined with alcohol? I

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00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 1: don't know, because all they're talking about right now at

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00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: this point that we can see at the time that

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00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: this is being recorded is that she had hydre code

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00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: on board. And again the level is questionable. We have

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00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: some people saying that it's above normal therapeutic levels, and

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00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: we have other people saying that, well, it's well within

463
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: the parameters of survivability, if you will. So hard to say,

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00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: but I do know this, out of all the cases

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00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: that we've covered on body backs, this is certainly one

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00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: more curious. If you or somebody you know is suffering

467
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: through anything that leads you to think that maybe it's

468
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: time to just calling into life as it is. Please

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00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred

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00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: two seven three talk. That's one eight hundred two seven

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00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: three eight two five five. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is body Backs