1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:21,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, y'all, it's justin Richmond here. We have a 2 00:00:21,276 --> 00:00:24,876 Speaker 1: fantastic new podcast for you to check out. Today, we're 3 00:00:24,876 --> 00:00:28,196 Speaker 1: bringing you a taste of Pushkin's newest show, Into the Zone, 4 00:00:28,836 --> 00:00:33,196 Speaker 1: hosted by novelist Harry Kunzru. Hary loves and has written 5 00:00:33,196 --> 00:00:36,916 Speaker 1: about music a lot over the years. His new podcast 6 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:40,116 Speaker 1: is all about opposites and how borders are never as 7 00:00:40,156 --> 00:00:43,276 Speaker 1: clear as we think. We have a lot of artificial 8 00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:46,116 Speaker 1: boundaries in the music world, and in this episode, Harry 9 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 1: takes on the border war between rap and country evoked 10 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:53,516 Speaker 1: by Lil nas X's chart topping Old Town Road. To 11 00:00:53,556 --> 00:00:56,116 Speaker 1: get out the root of the controversy, Hary heads down 12 00:00:56,116 --> 00:00:59,036 Speaker 1: to the foothills of Virginia, where a legendary collection of 13 00:00:59,076 --> 00:01:03,596 Speaker 1: blues records holds the key understanding the insidious separation of 14 00:01:03,716 --> 00:01:07,916 Speaker 1: quote unquote black and white music. You can find Into 15 00:01:07,956 --> 00:01:10,956 Speaker 1: the Zone on Apple and wherever you get your barcass 16 00:01:11,556 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 1: Here's Harry Kanzru and into the Zone. This thing is 17 00:01:20,076 --> 00:01:24,396 Speaker 1: packed up like fort My friend Chris King stands in 18 00:01:24,436 --> 00:01:27,396 Speaker 1: the living room of his old house in rural Virginia. 19 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:30,756 Speaker 1: But this is where it actually gets fragile. This is 20 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:33,996 Speaker 1: like doing open heart surgery, because this is when you 21 00:01:34,036 --> 00:01:38,196 Speaker 1: could slice that microscopic vein. Chris takes a kitchen knife 22 00:01:38,236 --> 00:01:41,516 Speaker 1: to a large package, a two by two foot cube. 23 00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 1: My friend cultivates an old timey look. He has a mustache, 24 00:01:48,476 --> 00:01:52,356 Speaker 1: round toward a shell, glasses, suspenders holding up his core. Drois. 25 00:01:53,476 --> 00:01:57,196 Speaker 1: He's approaching this job in a methodical way. Think of 26 00:01:57,236 --> 00:02:01,396 Speaker 1: a nineteen thirties country doctor examining a patient. Holy shit. 27 00:02:02,556 --> 00:02:07,676 Speaker 1: Inside the cube, he finds more packaging, and still more. 28 00:02:09,116 --> 00:02:13,116 Speaker 1: It's as if someone's playing a trick on him. Inside 29 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:19,396 Speaker 1: one box, there's another, and another, then a sandwich of 30 00:02:19,476 --> 00:02:25,276 Speaker 1: cardboard and foam, and finally, in the very middle, a record, 31 00:02:27,156 --> 00:02:35,636 Speaker 1: just one record, shine mint coffee. Holy shit. This record 32 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:38,876 Speaker 1: is ninety years old, more or less, made to spin 33 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:43,356 Speaker 1: at seventy eight revolutions per minute. The disc is fragile. 34 00:02:43,636 --> 00:02:47,276 Speaker 1: It's coated with a substance called shellac, a resin secreted 35 00:02:47,316 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 1: by an Indian beetle. Shellac was too expensive to use 36 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:54,116 Speaker 1: for the whole record, so it's only on the surface. 37 00:02:54,676 --> 00:02:57,196 Speaker 1: The inside of a seventy eight is filled with clay 38 00:02:57,316 --> 00:03:00,956 Speaker 1: and limestone dust. It makes them heavy and very brittle. 39 00:03:01,676 --> 00:03:05,596 Speaker 1: Drop one and it will shatter like a china plate. Yes, 40 00:03:05,756 --> 00:03:08,396 Speaker 1: that's so clean, you can shave off. Then I met 41 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:10,636 Speaker 1: Chris some year years ago when I was researching my 42 00:03:10,716 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: novel White Tears. The book is a ghost story about 43 00:03:14,916 --> 00:03:19,276 Speaker 1: record collecting and the Mississippi Blues. To understand that world, 44 00:03:19,276 --> 00:03:21,836 Speaker 1: I needed to talk to a seventy eight collector, someone 45 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:25,316 Speaker 1: who is deep in the subculture. Chris agreed to help 46 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 1: me out. He's the kind of source a novelist can 47 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:32,996 Speaker 1: only dream off. Everything was stitched into the Fate's Harry. 48 00:03:33,516 --> 00:03:37,316 Speaker 1: You know nothing, there's nothing by chance. Now I'm here 49 00:03:37,356 --> 00:03:41,396 Speaker 1: to witness him in his happiest place, somehow or another. 50 00:03:41,596 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: The day that I was born, it was written into 51 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:46,476 Speaker 1: my favorite that I was going to play this record 52 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:52,596 Speaker 1: for you, and carefully lowers the needle into the groove. 53 00:04:03,836 --> 00:04:09,196 Speaker 1: This is Into the Zone, a podcast about opposites and 54 00:04:09,236 --> 00:04:15,556 Speaker 1: how borders are never as clear as we think. I'm 55 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:20,356 Speaker 1: hurry Kun's room. This episode is about music and authenticity. 56 00:04:21,316 --> 00:04:34,916 Speaker 1: It's about tradition and modernity. It's about black and white. 57 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:42,596 Speaker 1: Seventy eight collectors are notoriously secretive. The first one I 58 00:04:42,676 --> 00:04:46,236 Speaker 1: contacted while writing White Tears, well, he told me that 59 00:04:46,316 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: revealing information about collecting would be against his self interest, 60 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 1: because if more people realize how amazing these records are, 61 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:55,796 Speaker 1: the prices would go up and it would be harder 62 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:58,356 Speaker 1: for him to collect. But Chris is the kind of 63 00:04:58,356 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 1: guy who wants to share what he loves. He welcomed 64 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,636 Speaker 1: me into his lair in Virginia, and I wanted an 65 00:05:04,636 --> 00:05:08,796 Speaker 1: excuse to go back. Ever since we're lucky enough to 66 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:10,756 Speaker 1: be in your I mean, do you call it a 67 00:05:10,796 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 1: listening room? What do you call this place? Now? Yeah? 68 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 1: I can do more than listen here. Chris isn't lying. 69 00:05:18,636 --> 00:05:20,676 Speaker 1: He won a Grammy in two thousand and two for 70 00:05:20,756 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 1: his work compiling early recordings. He remasters old records for 71 00:05:24,796 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 1: re release. This room is a shrine to the early 72 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:32,196 Speaker 1: years of recorded sound. Thousands of records in identical brown 73 00:05:32,276 --> 00:05:36,076 Speaker 1: cardboard sleeves sit on shelves. The walls are hung with 74 00:05:36,116 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 1: memorabiliar portraits of long dead fiddlers and jug bands. There's 75 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:45,316 Speaker 1: a mixing desk, a turntable, two monitor speakers hung on 76 00:05:45,396 --> 00:05:51,076 Speaker 1: cables from the ceilings. To your collecting of American music, 77 00:05:51,076 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 1: I mean, do you have anything after the Second World War? 78 00:05:53,396 --> 00:05:56,996 Speaker 1: I don't collect anything. Sucks don't collect anything that sucks. 79 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:00,916 Speaker 1: I think that is a valid collecting strategy. Well, there's 80 00:06:01,036 --> 00:06:04,516 Speaker 1: there's completely a good rule for anybody. But is there 81 00:06:04,556 --> 00:06:07,796 Speaker 1: a date at which you stop? Yeah, well, I mean 82 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:12,476 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't have hardly any post War War two. 83 00:06:13,116 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 1: I have no post World War two blues, and I 84 00:06:15,836 --> 00:06:18,756 Speaker 1: have like maybe one or two post World War two 85 00:06:19,436 --> 00:06:23,036 Speaker 1: your belly things. The record Chris Just Unpacked is by 86 00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:27,836 Speaker 1: Mississippi musician Robert Wilkins. The song is called rolling Stone 87 00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 1: Part one Hallo. Hearing this on an original seventy eight 88 00:06:39,836 --> 00:06:42,316 Speaker 1: is like the second Coming for blues fans. There are 89 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:45,156 Speaker 1: very few known copies, and this is the one in 90 00:06:45,196 --> 00:06:59,156 Speaker 1: the best condition rule Someday. Robert Wilkins is not the 91 00:06:59,276 --> 00:07:02,276 Speaker 1: only early blues musician to have recorded a song with 92 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:05,316 Speaker 1: rolling Stone in the title, but he's the one the 93 00:07:05,356 --> 00:07:08,516 Speaker 1: English band called the Rolling Stones had to pay royalties 94 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:12,876 Speaker 1: On the album Beggars Banquet. There's a track called Prodigal Son. 95 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:16,636 Speaker 1: When it was released back in nineteen sixty eight, it 96 00:07:16,676 --> 00:07:20,276 Speaker 1: was credited to Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. It's actually 97 00:07:20,316 --> 00:07:22,916 Speaker 1: a pretty straight cover of a song by Wilkins that 98 00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:26,276 Speaker 1: he'd been playing since the nineteen twenties, after a long 99 00:07:26,396 --> 00:07:30,236 Speaker 1: court case, the elderly bluesman finally got what he was owed. 100 00:07:34,236 --> 00:07:38,516 Speaker 1: There are many stories like this. The British invasion bands 101 00:07:38,516 --> 00:07:41,676 Speaker 1: of the nineteen sixties, like Cream and led Zeppelin did 102 00:07:41,716 --> 00:07:44,916 Speaker 1: a good job of repackaging country blues and selling it 103 00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:48,556 Speaker 1: back to Americans with an English accent. I grew up 104 00:07:48,556 --> 00:07:50,596 Speaker 1: in England listening to a lot of those bands, and 105 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:53,596 Speaker 1: like many people, I eventually found my way back to 106 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:57,276 Speaker 1: the blues tradition that they were borrowing from. But it 107 00:07:57,316 --> 00:08:00,196 Speaker 1: was a long time before I really understood how strange 108 00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 1: it is that rock and roll music that comes from 109 00:08:03,396 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 1: the blues came to be thought of as a white style. 110 00:08:07,596 --> 00:08:09,796 Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons I went to to talk 111 00:08:09,836 --> 00:08:13,156 Speaker 1: to Chris. He knows this history better than almost anyone 112 00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: in modern popular music. We make this distinction between black 113 00:08:19,676 --> 00:08:23,756 Speaker 1: and white traditions in America, and do you think that 114 00:08:24,316 --> 00:08:28,996 Speaker 1: distinction has any validity? Well, obviously it has validity now, 115 00:08:29,516 --> 00:08:34,916 Speaker 1: But if you go back to basically the Civil War, 116 00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:38,516 Speaker 1: the American Civil War up until essentially the dawn of 117 00:08:38,596 --> 00:08:42,156 Speaker 1: the of the recording industry, that was a false dichotomy. 118 00:08:42,876 --> 00:08:46,916 Speaker 1: There was a pre blues tradition that was mixed, it 119 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 1: was shared. It was neither neither white nor black. It 120 00:08:50,436 --> 00:08:53,836 Speaker 1: was mongrel. It was everything. Maybe you should you should 121 00:08:53,836 --> 00:08:55,956 Speaker 1: play something, and we I mean we could play the 122 00:08:56,596 --> 00:08:59,676 Speaker 1: guesting game and see and and and imagine who might 123 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:03,316 Speaker 1: be playing. Yeah, okay, so I mean I'll play two records. 124 00:09:03,356 --> 00:09:06,276 Speaker 1: One is by black musicians, one is by white musicians, 125 00:09:06,796 --> 00:09:11,236 Speaker 1: but largely the frumentation and the repertoire and the style 126 00:09:11,716 --> 00:09:16,116 Speaker 1: is the same. And this sort of shows that. Um, 127 00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:19,676 Speaker 1: if anything, it was the recording industry that started to 128 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:24,196 Speaker 1: parce out and say this is black and this is white. 129 00:09:32,636 --> 00:09:48,916 Speaker 1: I think him now will be read around him as 130 00:09:48,996 --> 00:09:52,036 Speaker 1: far as ending, yeah, I think that they were very 131 00:09:52,116 --> 00:09:54,356 Speaker 1: high during that session. You can hear the guy kind 132 00:09:54,356 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 1: of like mumbling and the way he's just experimenting with, 133 00:09:59,036 --> 00:10:03,156 Speaker 1: like just how long he draws that New Orleans. Yeah, 134 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 1: it was a completely improvised session. It sounded like black 135 00:10:06,956 --> 00:10:10,156 Speaker 1: musicians to me, not so much because of how they 136 00:10:10,156 --> 00:10:13,756 Speaker 1: were playing, but because of their accents. Chris pulls out 137 00:10:14,036 --> 00:10:18,956 Speaker 1: the other record. This record also nineteen twenty nine. And 138 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:21,276 Speaker 1: also I didn't realize it until I pulled it. This 139 00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:25,876 Speaker 1: is also Atlanta Georgia. So both recorded in the same place, 140 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:28,596 Speaker 1: the same place. They probably knew each other. They probably 141 00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:44,436 Speaker 1: bring around you. One of the speakers says, quit your 142 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:48,716 Speaker 1: foolishness round here. He says it, Yeah, I hear white 143 00:10:48,716 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 1: people in that straight away. Maybe you say, who were 144 00:10:51,836 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 1: we listening to? So we were listening. The first track 145 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:58,236 Speaker 1: was Chitland Supper by peg Leg Howel and Jim Hill 146 00:10:59,356 --> 00:11:02,316 Speaker 1: peg Leg how he had a peg leg peg Leg 147 00:11:02,596 --> 00:11:06,556 Speaker 1: and his band in Atlanta were black, as I guessed correctly. 148 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,876 Speaker 1: And then the second record is the South Georgia Highballers 149 00:11:09,916 --> 00:11:13,596 Speaker 1: doing bluegrass Twist, and they were a white group. The 150 00:11:13,636 --> 00:11:16,556 Speaker 1: point of Chris's demonstration wasn't that back in the day, 151 00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:20,476 Speaker 1: black and white musicians sounded into changeable, though it's true 152 00:11:20,516 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 1: that they did seem to play their instruments in almost 153 00:11:22,796 --> 00:11:26,356 Speaker 1: the same way. No, Chris's point was that someone has 154 00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 1: been training us all these decades to hear and recognize 155 00:11:29,956 --> 00:11:35,156 Speaker 1: slight differences and immediately attribute them to race. We've been 156 00:11:35,196 --> 00:11:39,556 Speaker 1: taught categories, and every day we're taught them anew by 157 00:11:39,556 --> 00:11:43,796 Speaker 1: those who patrol the boundaries. Let's play a little game 158 00:11:43,796 --> 00:11:47,836 Speaker 1: called that ain't country. This game has just played by 159 00:11:47,916 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: me talking about stuff that ain't country. That's the country 160 00:11:51,716 --> 00:11:55,396 Speaker 1: music YouTuber called Grady Tate who wants us to know 161 00:11:55,596 --> 00:11:58,876 Speaker 1: what ain't country. And the first one and main one 162 00:11:58,876 --> 00:12:02,756 Speaker 1: that really inspired this video is as I'm sure you've 163 00:12:02,796 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 1: heard this song Old Town Road by Little Nasax. You 164 00:12:07,996 --> 00:12:12,356 Speaker 1: might remember the net drama around Old Town Road. For 165 00:12:12,396 --> 00:12:16,916 Speaker 1: a while, TikTok was dominated by teenagers magically transforming themselves 166 00:12:16,916 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 1: into cowboys and cowgirls to the sound of this song. 167 00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: Sixty seven million views later, Old Town Road topped the 168 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:28,756 Speaker 1: Billboard Hot one hundred for nineteen weeks, a record, and 169 00:12:28,836 --> 00:12:33,156 Speaker 1: it made both the country and the R and B charts. 170 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:36,836 Speaker 1: I'm not actually even mad at Lil Nazas at all 171 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:39,196 Speaker 1: for making this song. Who I'm mad at is like 172 00:12:39,236 --> 00:12:42,636 Speaker 1: the gatekeepers over at iTunes and over on Billboard that 173 00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 1: are letting the song chart as a country song and 174 00:12:46,156 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: it's not a country song at all. This is a 175 00:12:48,396 --> 00:12:52,516 Speaker 1: hip hop song that I guess is about horses that 176 00:12:52,636 --> 00:12:55,956 Speaker 1: ain't country. Was just a tiny part of the backlash 177 00:12:55,996 --> 00:13:00,596 Speaker 1: against Lil nas and eventually Billboard pulled Oldtown Road from 178 00:13:00,596 --> 00:13:05,436 Speaker 1: the country category it did not contain quote enough elements 179 00:13:05,476 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 1: of today's country music, Lil Nasax was officially not country. 180 00:13:13,596 --> 00:13:16,876 Speaker 1: Like many people, I thought I detected a racial subtext 181 00:13:16,916 --> 00:13:20,916 Speaker 1: in this argument. Old Town Road has a heavy trap 182 00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 1: beat and big bass, but lots of contemporary country music 183 00:13:25,356 --> 00:13:29,876 Speaker 1: uses elements of other popular styles, including hip hop. Why 184 00:13:29,956 --> 00:13:34,836 Speaker 1: pick on Lelnar's X people said his song didn't sound authentic. 185 00:13:36,156 --> 00:13:38,876 Speaker 1: I'm always on the alert when I hear the word authentic. 186 00:13:39,156 --> 00:13:42,756 Speaker 1: It's a gate keeping word, a word used to exclude. 187 00:13:43,476 --> 00:13:48,916 Speaker 1: It's also racially loaded. My mum's English and my dad's Indian. 188 00:13:49,676 --> 00:13:52,436 Speaker 1: When I was growing up, I was made to feel 189 00:13:52,476 --> 00:13:56,276 Speaker 1: that I wasn't white enough, but also that I wasn't 190 00:13:56,316 --> 00:14:00,676 Speaker 1: brown enough. As a writer, I've always told stories that 191 00:14:00,876 --> 00:14:04,676 Speaker 1: challenge simple ideas about authenticity, that try to show how 192 00:14:04,676 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 1: the world is complex and more mixed up than we 193 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:10,316 Speaker 1: give it credit for the kind of stories I'm telling 194 00:14:10,316 --> 00:14:14,956 Speaker 1: in this podcast. To get a better handle on authenticity 195 00:14:14,996 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: in American popular music, I took the A train. It 196 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:20,956 Speaker 1: goes all the way uptown from where I live in 197 00:14:20,996 --> 00:14:24,316 Speaker 1: Brooklyn to Harlem. I was going to see a writer 198 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:28,516 Speaker 1: friend called Kevin Young. Kevin is a poet and the 199 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:31,396 Speaker 1: director of one of the most important libraries in the US, 200 00:14:32,036 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 1: the Schomberg Center for Research in Black Culture. I wanted 201 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:41,156 Speaker 1: to ask Kevin. By dressing up as a cowboy, was 202 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:46,396 Speaker 1: Lil nas X somehow appropriating white culture? Well, I mean 203 00:14:46,876 --> 00:14:49,596 Speaker 1: cowboy face. Is that what you're suggesting is that there's 204 00:14:49,636 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 1: such a thing. Now we'd have to go back and 205 00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:54,676 Speaker 1: talk about cowboys who weren't all white. In fact, there 206 00:14:54,716 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: were many, many black and brown and Asian cowboys. The 207 00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:04,156 Speaker 1: way we think of cowboys is shaped, I think entirely 208 00:15:04,196 --> 00:15:07,956 Speaker 1: by cinema. And John Wayne couldn't ride a horse. I 209 00:15:07,956 --> 00:15:10,636 Speaker 1: should leap in here say that, of course John Wayne 210 00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:13,836 Speaker 1: could ride, he just wasn't that fond of horses, and 211 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:17,116 Speaker 1: he only rode on set, never for fun. But Lil 212 00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:19,996 Speaker 1: nas X isn't playing a cowboy in the same way 213 00:15:20,076 --> 00:15:24,076 Speaker 1: as John Wayne is playing a cowboy. John Wayne fans 214 00:15:24,156 --> 00:15:27,916 Speaker 1: revere him because they feel he's channeling something authentic. He 215 00:15:27,956 --> 00:15:32,676 Speaker 1: convinces them that he's a cowboy in his dazzling stage suits. 216 00:15:32,916 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 1: Lil nas X isn't trying to convince you of anything 217 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:41,676 Speaker 1: but his fabulousness. He's giving a knowing performance. It's cowboys style. 218 00:15:42,316 --> 00:15:45,476 Speaker 1: It's camp, a kind of camp with deep roots in 219 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 1: African American culture. And here's where things get really interesting. 220 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:54,596 Speaker 1: Kevin connects that form of camp to the cake walk, 221 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 1: a parade like competitive dance that started in the days 222 00:15:58,036 --> 00:16:02,076 Speaker 1: of slavery. It was performed for a prize, sometimes a cake. 223 00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:09,836 Speaker 1: It was a dance from the plantation of blacks, the slaved, 224 00:16:10,596 --> 00:16:15,316 Speaker 1: mocking there would be masters. They're putative slave owners, the 225 00:16:15,356 --> 00:16:20,996 Speaker 1: holders of them. Supposedly they are imitating them, you know, 226 00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:24,396 Speaker 1: being quote fancy. And of course it depends on where 227 00:16:24,436 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 1: you stand. How you took that. If you were the 228 00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:30,396 Speaker 1: white slaveholder, you thought, wow, look at them, not quite 229 00:16:30,396 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 1: able to do what I do in my elegant dance. 230 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:37,196 Speaker 1: And if you were the black performer, you were like, boy, 231 00:16:37,236 --> 00:16:39,756 Speaker 1: they don't understand how much fun we're making of them, 232 00:16:40,436 --> 00:16:42,356 Speaker 1: you know, and how much fun we're having in this 233 00:16:42,476 --> 00:16:46,636 Speaker 1: limited system which within which we can only operate this way. 234 00:16:47,236 --> 00:16:50,116 Speaker 1: The k Kolk was the ancestor of everything from the 235 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:54,316 Speaker 1: line dance on Soul Train to bull room voguing. It's 236 00:16:54,316 --> 00:16:57,956 Speaker 1: the ancestor of Lil Nazek sacheting along in his hot 237 00:16:57,996 --> 00:17:02,756 Speaker 1: pink mesh cowboy shit. At the same time, you know, 238 00:17:02,996 --> 00:17:08,116 Speaker 1: there's this parodic, satiric quality of the music that you know. 239 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:10,836 Speaker 1: I'm tracing back to the Cakewalk, but we can trace 240 00:17:10,876 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 1: back any number of ways, which is, give me a form, 241 00:17:14,076 --> 00:17:16,636 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna make fun of it, and I'm gonna 242 00:17:16,676 --> 00:17:20,076 Speaker 1: make it better than you made it. Of course, when 243 00:17:20,156 --> 00:17:22,716 Speaker 1: Lil nas X was having a showdown with a country 244 00:17:22,836 --> 00:17:28,676 Speaker 1: music authenticity Sheriff's an outlaw rode to his rescue, Billy 245 00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 1: ray Cyrus, famous mullet haver and father of Miley, teamed 246 00:17:34,076 --> 00:17:38,236 Speaker 1: up with Nas. It should be fat. We'll settle in 247 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:44,076 Speaker 1: here for the night. I don't know, man, last time 248 00:17:44,116 --> 00:17:46,196 Speaker 1: I was here. They want to welcome and the outsiders. 249 00:17:46,236 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 1: In the video they made together, Nas rides a horse 250 00:17:49,636 --> 00:17:53,316 Speaker 1: down a street in East la He and Billy also 251 00:17:53,516 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: face down an all white crowd of seniors in a 252 00:17:56,076 --> 00:18:03,956 Speaker 1: community hall. The segregated bingo game turns into a line dance, 253 00:18:04,596 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 1: and it all ends in a sweet interracial prom photo. 254 00:18:08,596 --> 00:18:11,836 Speaker 1: Nas is a smile and his old white lady dance 255 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 1: partner gazes admiringly up at him. But let's be honest, 256 00:18:19,636 --> 00:18:22,156 Speaker 1: this kind of thing is exactly what makes a lot 257 00:18:22,196 --> 00:18:25,996 Speaker 1: of country music fans uneasy in a world of style 258 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 1: and flim flam. Country sells itself on authenticity, on realness. 259 00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:35,596 Speaker 1: Though it sometimes wears Ryan stones and hairspray. Country means 260 00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:41,156 Speaker 1: songs about growing up poor, about enduring hard times, and 261 00:18:41,196 --> 00:18:44,996 Speaker 1: it has musical traditions. Country fans feel there's a way 262 00:18:45,036 --> 00:18:49,276 Speaker 1: it ought to sound. Everyone knows that country has that 263 00:18:49,436 --> 00:18:55,116 Speaker 1: thing that twang. No, you can't take my door. I 264 00:18:55,156 --> 00:19:03,756 Speaker 1: don't want to love you anymore. My face whiskey good, whiskey. 265 00:19:03,956 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: Straighten you gay. If that sounded off to you, congratulations, 266 00:19:14,436 --> 00:19:18,956 Speaker 1: your bullshit detectors are still functioning. That was country music 267 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 1: generated by artificial intelligence. Researchers trained a neural network on 268 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:27,756 Speaker 1: country music's greatest hits. This was what it came up with, 269 00:19:29,596 --> 00:19:35,156 Speaker 1: a show away. The melody and the lyrics were the 270 00:19:35,196 --> 00:19:40,756 Speaker 1: work of the AI, the arrangement and singing humans. Elsewhere 271 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:42,956 Speaker 1: on the internet, there's a twenty four to seven live 272 00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: stream of AI generated death metal, created on the fly 273 00:19:46,636 --> 00:19:49,636 Speaker 1: with no human intervention at all. I don't want to 274 00:19:49,676 --> 00:19:53,676 Speaker 1: make you listen to that. I really don't, all right, 275 00:19:53,836 --> 00:20:10,236 Speaker 1: I do. Sorry. At some point, be very late at night, 276 00:20:10,796 --> 00:20:14,276 Speaker 1: I realized that in twenty twenty, any conversation about country 277 00:20:14,356 --> 00:20:17,796 Speaker 1: music and authenticity is best conducted by two men of 278 00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:21,436 Speaker 1: South Asian descent in a living room in Brooklyn, drinking 279 00:20:21,436 --> 00:20:27,396 Speaker 1: old fashions. I am from Pennsylvania and I grew up 280 00:20:27,396 --> 00:20:30,356 Speaker 1: in a college town. I've always loved music, but I 281 00:20:30,396 --> 00:20:33,876 Speaker 1: think that I came across country music just artificially, just 282 00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:39,436 Speaker 1: you know, collecting records as a teenager, discovering that unexpectedly 283 00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: I really liked this stuff. This is Shuja Hide. Shujia 284 00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:46,676 Speaker 1: is a smart cultural critic who's always happy to share 285 00:20:46,676 --> 00:20:50,316 Speaker 1: his opinions on political philosophy or the best Michael Mann 286 00:20:50,356 --> 00:20:56,156 Speaker 1: movie Collateral. Shuja also loves country music, and I think 287 00:20:56,156 --> 00:20:58,316 Speaker 1: it may actually have something to do with with my 288 00:20:58,476 --> 00:21:00,676 Speaker 1: South Asian background. That you know, I grew up on 289 00:21:01,276 --> 00:21:05,156 Speaker 1: hearing the sort of Bollywood music of the forties and 290 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties that my dad used to play. And 291 00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 1: those songs are all full of stories, you know, they 292 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:15,316 Speaker 1: were associated with the movies of the time. They describe 293 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 1: rural life or urban life in India, and they're written 294 00:21:22,156 --> 00:21:25,516 Speaker 1: by you know, some great poets. The lyrics well, would 295 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:29,276 Speaker 1: some favorites of USB Well, my dad loved Muhammad Raffi 296 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:36,596 Speaker 1: and Tatis mud n Johnny Tuk. Yeah, these are songs 297 00:21:36,676 --> 00:21:39,596 Speaker 1: that are very intricately written. They draw on the folk 298 00:21:39,636 --> 00:21:44,516 Speaker 1: traditions of the landscape, and I think country music kind 299 00:21:44,516 --> 00:21:47,796 Speaker 1: of does the same thing. Jiujia has written about his 300 00:21:47,836 --> 00:21:50,876 Speaker 1: own attempt to pin down the essence of country music 301 00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 1: that's set in something that feel that twang. Twang is 302 00:21:56,276 --> 00:21:59,636 Speaker 1: a word that initially is used to describe language people 303 00:21:59,636 --> 00:22:03,396 Speaker 1: who speak with various kinds of accents, the way you 304 00:22:03,516 --> 00:22:06,356 Speaker 1: articulate a vowel or so on. We're often described as 305 00:22:06,356 --> 00:22:09,636 Speaker 1: twang all the way back to Europe in the seventeen century, 306 00:22:09,876 --> 00:22:13,516 Speaker 1: and it often is used to denote a Southern accent, 307 00:22:14,276 --> 00:22:17,156 Speaker 1: dropping the geese and you know, kind of twirling your 308 00:22:17,196 --> 00:22:23,036 Speaker 1: vowels and so on. I would ride number nine hidden 309 00:22:23,196 --> 00:22:28,956 Speaker 1: frol and that's a sound that I think at the 310 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:32,076 Speaker 1: time that people in the South started to migrate to 311 00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 1: California towards the north, towards city centers, they brought their 312 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:38,276 Speaker 1: accents with them, and they brought their musical traditions with them, 313 00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:40,836 Speaker 1: and once they came into contact with the new technologies 314 00:22:40,876 --> 00:22:43,676 Speaker 1: that we're being used to produce music and to record music, 315 00:22:44,156 --> 00:22:46,756 Speaker 1: they started to emerge in new ways. So you have 316 00:22:46,796 --> 00:22:50,476 Speaker 1: the sound of an electrified string, you know, being picked 317 00:22:50,556 --> 00:22:53,676 Speaker 1: up by a magnet that's being fed into an amplifier, 318 00:22:55,036 --> 00:22:57,636 Speaker 1: and people are giving it the same kind of articulation 319 00:22:57,676 --> 00:23:00,156 Speaker 1: that they would give their speech. And I think that's 320 00:23:00,196 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 1: what we call twang. Choose your point. Sound that twang. 321 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:12,516 Speaker 1: The sound I think of when I think of country 322 00:23:12,596 --> 00:23:16,836 Speaker 1: music is an electrified sound. The sound of an instrument 323 00:23:16,916 --> 00:23:20,516 Speaker 1: called the pedal steel. Pedal steel is a wooden board 324 00:23:20,596 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 1: that has strings across it, and rather than actually being 325 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:28,116 Speaker 1: touched with fingers, it's played with a steel bar and 326 00:23:28,396 --> 00:23:34,436 Speaker 1: usually sort of false like metal clause. And it's got 327 00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:37,676 Speaker 1: not just not just the steel bar to change the notes, 328 00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:40,476 Speaker 1: but also a system of pedals that change the notes 329 00:23:40,556 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 1: after they've already been articulated. The quintessential sound of a 330 00:23:47,716 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 1: genre that prides itself on tradition is the sound of 331 00:23:51,996 --> 00:23:55,316 Speaker 1: a modern instrument pedal steel. Sums it up. It was 332 00:23:55,356 --> 00:23:57,956 Speaker 1: invented in the twentieth century. It was constantly revised and 333 00:23:57,996 --> 00:24:01,396 Speaker 1: tinkered with. You know, it originally has its roots in 334 00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:05,196 Speaker 1: Hawaiian music with the lap steel. So you can't play 335 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:09,276 Speaker 1: the pedal steel on a farm. The pedal steel is 336 00:24:09,276 --> 00:24:13,076 Speaker 1: an electric instrument. It needs to be amplified otherwise you 337 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:14,996 Speaker 1: can't really hear it. And it's really kind of a 338 00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:16,996 Speaker 1: space age sound, you know. It sounds something like the 339 00:24:17,036 --> 00:24:22,316 Speaker 1: phomin or. It even sounds like a synthesizer. You know. 340 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:34,156 Speaker 1: This is what commercial country and Western music sounded like. 341 00:24:34,276 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty seven, Blue Yodel number two recorded in 342 00:24:39,436 --> 00:25:02,836 Speaker 1: Los Angeles by a band called The Rhythm Records. This 343 00:25:02,916 --> 00:25:08,036 Speaker 1: song is a cosmic collision of styles and influences. It's 344 00:25:08,036 --> 00:25:12,436 Speaker 1: a blues about a loving gal called Lucille. The growling 345 00:25:12,556 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: vocal is copied from black singers like Bessie Smith, but 346 00:25:16,556 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 1: the singer is a fourteen year old white boy from 347 00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:38,516 Speaker 1: Oklahoma who goes by Whitie McPherson. And what about that yodel? 348 00:25:39,156 --> 00:25:43,476 Speaker 1: It sounds so good, yet it's so weird. Yodeling was 349 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:46,116 Speaker 1: actually a solid part of American life for at least 350 00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:50,036 Speaker 1: a hundred years. Yodling started in the Swiss Alps, of course, 351 00:25:50,076 --> 00:25:54,596 Speaker 1: but American yodeling had a long history in blackface minstrel shows. 352 00:25:55,396 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 1: The writer of this song was the huge star Jimmy Rogers. 353 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:05,276 Speaker 1: He started out performing as a black face minstrel. What 354 00:26:05,396 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 1: You're hearing is in fact a space age Hawaiian alpine 355 00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:47,556 Speaker 1: black face minstrel song. May carry me back to old Virginia. 356 00:26:48,116 --> 00:26:50,796 Speaker 1: That's where the cotton and the corn and the tatoes grow. 357 00:26:51,716 --> 00:26:55,356 Speaker 1: That's where the birds warble sweet in the springtime. There's 358 00:26:55,396 --> 00:27:00,396 Speaker 1: where the darky's heart am long to go. That's an 359 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:04,716 Speaker 1: old minstrel song. Until nineteen ninety seven, it was also 360 00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:08,196 Speaker 1: the state song of Virginia. This version was sung by 361 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:11,196 Speaker 1: Marion and the first black singer to appear at the 362 00:27:11,236 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 1: Metropolitan Opera House. Carry Me Back was written in eighteen 363 00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:19,876 Speaker 1: seventy eight by a black singer and composer called James A. Bland. 364 00:27:21,236 --> 00:27:28,196 Speaker 1: But would you say the song was black music? Marion 365 00:27:28,276 --> 00:27:33,196 Speaker 1: Anderson sings in a European style with European orchestration, and 366 00:27:33,356 --> 00:27:36,836 Speaker 1: Bland's lyrics repeat one of the primary racist fantasies of 367 00:27:36,836 --> 00:27:40,716 Speaker 1: the South that free black people long for the certainties 368 00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:44,836 Speaker 1: of the plantation, that they actually want to be enslaved again. 369 00:27:46,196 --> 00:27:48,916 Speaker 1: The black man who wrote the words had never been 370 00:27:48,956 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 1: a slave on a Virginia plantation. He was a Howard 371 00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:56,316 Speaker 1: University graduate from Flushing, Queens who made his living writing 372 00:27:56,356 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: minstrel songs. Carry Me back to Old Virginny has a 373 00:28:00,436 --> 00:28:05,636 Speaker 1: quality I find in Oldtown Road, in Blue Yodel Number 374 00:28:05,636 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 1: two and so many other American popular It's like a 375 00:28:14,476 --> 00:28:18,076 Speaker 1: Merbius strip with a white side and a black side 376 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:23,076 Speaker 1: that run together, impossible to separate. My Virginia friend, Chris 377 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 1: the collector, lives inside that strip. He loves it. It's 378 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:31,836 Speaker 1: a wonder that you can find anything, because these are 379 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:36,956 Speaker 1: all identically sleeved records. They're all in these uniform brown 380 00:28:37,396 --> 00:28:39,676 Speaker 1: paper sleeves. And I mean, I don't know how many 381 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 1: you have. He had enough. You know how many you 382 00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:48,436 Speaker 1: have here? He has five thousand, five hundred records. Could you, 383 00:28:48,596 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 1: I mean, talk about your cataloging? How do you? Oddly enough? 384 00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:58,156 Speaker 1: Oddly enough talking about segregation? So this is all black shelf, 385 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,396 Speaker 1: it's about here, and then go on from there yonder 386 00:29:01,476 --> 00:29:05,236 Speaker 1: is all Cajun, and then from here over to there 387 00:29:05,396 --> 00:29:18,396 Speaker 1: is all white Hillbilly, and then Ukrainian, Polish, Indian, Albanian, Greek, Turkish, African, Mongolian. 388 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:25,756 Speaker 1: I didn't know you didn't know you did Mongolian. As 389 00:29:25,796 --> 00:29:30,316 Speaker 1: our evening together gets later and later, Chris ranges across topics, 390 00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:34,396 Speaker 1: occasionally pausing to roll a cigarette to refill out glasses. 391 00:29:34,676 --> 00:29:36,356 Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna get another glass of wine and 392 00:29:36,316 --> 00:29:38,956 Speaker 1: then I'll play you something that will go good with that, 393 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:41,236 Speaker 1: but but black. But you won't be able to tell 394 00:29:41,276 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 1: it's black. I swear to God. At that time, in 395 00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:01,116 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, you would have been able to encounter 396 00:30:01,836 --> 00:30:05,036 Speaker 1: William Moore playing that piece, and then somebody like my 397 00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 1: grandfather playing the exact same piece with probably the same 398 00:30:08,796 --> 00:30:13,556 Speaker 1: vogue election the same style. In Britain, folk singers revived 399 00:30:13,556 --> 00:30:18,116 Speaker 1: ballads and traditional regional songs, always striving to sound as 400 00:30:18,156 --> 00:30:22,396 Speaker 1: authentic as possible, searching back in time for some pure 401 00:30:22,596 --> 00:30:28,196 Speaker 1: original version American music was from the earliest days a hybrid. 402 00:30:29,236 --> 00:30:32,996 Speaker 1: I asked Chris to play me English ballads, Irish jigs 403 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:36,516 Speaker 1: and African banjo playing to show how elements from many 404 00:30:36,556 --> 00:30:40,516 Speaker 1: different places went into the sounds of American music and 405 00:30:40,596 --> 00:30:43,956 Speaker 1: how they began to blend together into something that couldn't 406 00:30:43,956 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 1: have been from anywhere else. This is old country stomp 407 00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:02,796 Speaker 1: by a Texan musician called Henry Thomas. Very little is 408 00:31:02,836 --> 00:31:06,756 Speaker 1: known about him. He was a wandering songster and sometimes 409 00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:09,476 Speaker 1: a hobo, who rode the rails across America. Here in 410 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:12,756 Speaker 1: the early years of the twentieth century. We never would 411 00:31:12,796 --> 00:31:14,956 Speaker 1: have heard him a tool had he not been brought 412 00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:18,276 Speaker 1: into a studio in Chicago where he recorded this in 413 00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight. Henry Thomas isn't somebody who was born early, wasn't. 414 00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:27,236 Speaker 1: He was quite old by the time he was recorded 415 00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:29,996 Speaker 1: in the twenties, and he's he's like one of the 416 00:31:30,196 --> 00:31:33,636 Speaker 1: poster boy examples of like where black and white get 417 00:31:33,756 --> 00:31:37,116 Speaker 1: very muddy. But he's one of those musicians that I 418 00:31:37,156 --> 00:31:40,436 Speaker 1: would find his records mixed in with white country records 419 00:31:40,436 --> 00:31:42,996 Speaker 1: because people just like the way he sounded. They said 420 00:31:43,036 --> 00:31:54,156 Speaker 1: he sounded country. It's a typical country breakdown. I mean, 421 00:31:54,196 --> 00:31:56,916 Speaker 1: that's what you would have heard in a barn being 422 00:31:56,956 --> 00:32:00,556 Speaker 1: played on fiddle and banjo with somebody just making calls. 423 00:32:00,596 --> 00:32:04,436 Speaker 1: You know, swing your partner. But it's a black guy. 424 00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:09,716 Speaker 1: Henry Thomas cut twelve records in Chicago, twenty four sides, 425 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:13,276 Speaker 1: and one in particular found its way into the ears 426 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:17,316 Speaker 1: of white folk musicians in the nineteen sixties. If you're 427 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:20,196 Speaker 1: of the Love and Peace generation, and even if you're not, 428 00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 1: you might find this familiar. It was performed at Woodstock 429 00:32:24,756 --> 00:32:45,796 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine Canned Heat, who had a huge 430 00:32:45,796 --> 00:32:49,036 Speaker 1: career in the late sixties performing a lot of let's 431 00:32:49,076 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 1: call them homage to the pioneers of country blues, pioneers 432 00:32:54,396 --> 00:33:18,036 Speaker 1: like Henry Thomas. I love that record. You should have 433 00:33:18,076 --> 00:33:20,156 Speaker 1: seen a look on my eyes when I saw that. 434 00:33:20,836 --> 00:33:24,996 Speaker 1: Why did you find shit? Man? I found this fourteen 435 00:33:25,116 --> 00:33:27,556 Speaker 1: years I didn't find it. I bought it from a 436 00:33:27,756 --> 00:33:30,516 Speaker 1: junker fourteen years ago, a guy who was just going 437 00:33:30,556 --> 00:33:33,276 Speaker 1: around picking up stuff, and he met me in the 438 00:33:33,676 --> 00:33:37,476 Speaker 1: back of walmart in town. Eventually we got onto the 439 00:33:37,516 --> 00:33:40,156 Speaker 1: topic of what they used to call hot jazz, the 440 00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:43,916 Speaker 1: fast paced, syncopated sounds that made flappers crazy in the twenties. 441 00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:47,476 Speaker 1: Chris isn't a big jazz collective, but jokes that he 442 00:33:47,556 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 1: keeps one record around for conversations just like this one 443 00:34:01,996 --> 00:34:07,076 Speaker 1: other than cocaine. What is going on there? It's a hardcore, 444 00:34:07,116 --> 00:34:12,236 Speaker 1: traditional New Orleans group, but just happened to be whop. Yeah, 445 00:34:12,356 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 1: but that kind of music really worried a lot of people, 446 00:34:15,836 --> 00:34:19,516 Speaker 1: or a lot of a lot of white moral gatekeepers 447 00:34:19,596 --> 00:34:22,116 Speaker 1: didn't then. Yeah, I mean you've heard of the shimmy 448 00:34:22,116 --> 00:34:24,236 Speaker 1: she wobble, right, I actually have not heard of the 449 00:34:24,236 --> 00:34:28,396 Speaker 1: shimmy she wobble. Okay, it's a nasty dance, it's a 450 00:34:28,436 --> 00:34:33,076 Speaker 1: fun dance. It's it's simulated copulation while standing up with 451 00:34:33,116 --> 00:34:36,356 Speaker 1: another woman and dancing. And it was our lord in 452 00:34:36,396 --> 00:34:39,316 Speaker 1: twenty three states the shimmy she wobble at one point? 453 00:34:39,996 --> 00:34:42,996 Speaker 1: How could you not be fascinated by the shimmy she wobble? 454 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:47,196 Speaker 1: These fast, sexy jazz dances were once the subject of 455 00:34:47,236 --> 00:34:51,156 Speaker 1: a full scale moral panic. I found a screed against 456 00:34:51,236 --> 00:34:54,316 Speaker 1: jazz dancing in a nineteen twenty one edition of Ladies 457 00:34:54,396 --> 00:34:59,556 Speaker 1: Home Journal. It's by An Shaw Faulkner, National Music Chairman 458 00:34:59,636 --> 00:35:04,716 Speaker 1: of the General Federation of Women's Clubs. The title does 459 00:35:04,876 --> 00:35:08,756 Speaker 1: jazz put the sin in syncopation? That it has ad 460 00:35:09,156 --> 00:35:12,796 Speaker 1: realizing effect upon the human brain has been demonstrated by 461 00:35:12,876 --> 00:35:17,876 Speaker 1: many scientists. Jazz produces an atrophied condition on brain cells 462 00:35:17,916 --> 00:35:22,956 Speaker 1: of consumption until very frequently those under the demoralizing influence 463 00:35:22,956 --> 00:35:27,676 Speaker 1: of the persistent use of syncopation, combined with enharmonic partial tones, 464 00:35:27,996 --> 00:35:31,516 Speaker 1: are actually incapable of distinguishing between good and evil, right 465 00:35:31,596 --> 00:35:37,676 Speaker 1: and wrong. Personally, I think that sounds awesome, But here's 466 00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:40,516 Speaker 1: where we get to the nitty gritty there's an effort 467 00:35:40,596 --> 00:35:43,796 Speaker 1: to get rid of the shimmyshi wobble or the more 468 00:35:44,316 --> 00:35:48,436 Speaker 1: the safe name foxtrot. There was this notion to like 469 00:35:48,516 --> 00:35:52,156 Speaker 1: push traditional values of hillbill and music of going back 470 00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:54,636 Speaker 1: to square dancing. I wanted to know if this was 471 00:35:54,676 --> 00:35:58,236 Speaker 1: because there was less physical contact between the dances. Yeah, exactly. 472 00:35:58,236 --> 00:36:00,036 Speaker 1: There's no touching at all unless you held the hand 473 00:36:00,036 --> 00:36:01,796 Speaker 1: of the person of while they cut corners with you. 474 00:36:03,596 --> 00:36:06,396 Speaker 1: One thing I'm very interested is that there was an 475 00:36:06,436 --> 00:36:12,796 Speaker 1: attempt to make the square dance the official dance of America. 476 00:36:12,996 --> 00:36:17,916 Speaker 1: That was one of Henry Ford's less great ideas. Henry Ford. Yes, 477 00:36:18,076 --> 00:36:20,716 Speaker 1: that Henry Ford the one best known for the model 478 00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:25,036 Speaker 1: t But like the billionaires weighing in on today's politics, 479 00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:29,156 Speaker 1: Henry Ford had many opinions and they got taken seriously 480 00:36:29,316 --> 00:36:33,036 Speaker 1: because he was Henry Ford. Mister Ford didn't just think 481 00:36:33,076 --> 00:36:37,316 Speaker 1: jazz was bad. He thought it was a conspiracy. In 482 00:36:37,396 --> 00:36:42,876 Speaker 1: his self published pamphlet The International Jew, he writes, popular 483 00:36:43,036 --> 00:36:47,036 Speaker 1: music is a Jewish monopoly. Jazz is a Jewish creation. 484 00:36:47,836 --> 00:36:52,676 Speaker 1: The mush slush, the sly suggestion, the abandoned sensuousness of 485 00:36:52,716 --> 00:37:01,356 Speaker 1: sliding notes are of Jewish origin. Ford's solution, wholesome white 486 00:37:01,396 --> 00:37:05,876 Speaker 1: traditions of music and dance, take it away the Henry 487 00:37:05,876 --> 00:37:19,516 Speaker 1: Ford Old time dance orchestra. Denunciation of the dance by 488 00:37:19,556 --> 00:37:23,756 Speaker 1: the protectors of public morals has usually been occasioned by 489 00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:27,436 Speaker 1: the importations of dances which are foreign to the expressional 490 00:37:27,516 --> 00:37:33,076 Speaker 1: needs of our people, with characteristic American judgment. However, the 491 00:37:33,116 --> 00:37:36,076 Speaker 1: balance is now shifting toward that style of dancing which 492 00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:41,396 Speaker 1: best fits with the American temperament. Don't you feel cleaner 493 00:37:41,396 --> 00:37:45,996 Speaker 1: for hearing that? Like a spiritual, high colonic Now you're 494 00:37:46,036 --> 00:37:50,036 Speaker 1: free of all that dangerous foreign syncopation rotting your brain 495 00:37:50,116 --> 00:37:54,476 Speaker 1: and destroying your morals. By the end of the nineteen twenties, 496 00:37:54,716 --> 00:37:58,316 Speaker 1: after Henry Ford's campaign, almost half the school children in 497 00:37:58,356 --> 00:38:02,076 Speaker 1: America were learning square dancing and other forms of folk dance. 498 00:38:02,996 --> 00:38:05,636 Speaker 1: Later on, there was a concerted push to make square 499 00:38:05,716 --> 00:38:09,396 Speaker 1: dancing the official folk dance of the US, not tap 500 00:38:09,476 --> 00:38:13,636 Speaker 1: dancing or their jitterbug or any number of Native American dances. 501 00:38:14,596 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 1: Dozens of bills and resolutions endorsing square dancing went before 502 00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:22,476 Speaker 1: Congress and state legislatures right into the early two thousands. 503 00:38:24,556 --> 00:38:28,036 Speaker 1: Racists like Henry Ford were trying to create an authentic, 504 00:38:28,236 --> 00:38:32,356 Speaker 1: segregated folk culture. The recording industry took care of the rest. 505 00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:36,676 Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty two, the Oka label began to market 506 00:38:36,716 --> 00:38:40,636 Speaker 1: what it called race records, specifically to the African American market. 507 00:38:41,556 --> 00:38:45,116 Speaker 1: Between the nineteen twenties and nineteen forties, many major labels 508 00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:51,076 Speaker 1: issued their own series of race records, bringing jazz, blues, sermons, gospel, 509 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:53,716 Speaker 1: and other genres of music to a Black audience that 510 00:38:53,836 --> 00:38:59,916 Speaker 1: was excited to hear their culture on the phonograph. Eventually, 511 00:38:59,956 --> 00:39:03,836 Speaker 1: the race terminology fell away, to be replaced by rhythm 512 00:39:03,916 --> 00:39:07,236 Speaker 1: and blues, R and B, and of course the insidious 513 00:39:07,396 --> 00:39:13,076 Speaker 1: term urban. But from the earliest times, Americans have made 514 00:39:13,156 --> 00:39:18,356 Speaker 1: music together with no regard for categories or labels. Some 515 00:39:18,556 --> 00:39:21,556 Speaker 1: years ago, Chris King stumbled on a rare Cajun record. 516 00:39:22,796 --> 00:39:28,716 Speaker 1: This is a La Valse abbe Abe Waltz from nineteen 517 00:39:28,756 --> 00:40:04,076 Speaker 1: twenty nine with Dennis McGinn i'm Adre Dwin. I'm Adre 518 00:40:04,156 --> 00:40:09,036 Speaker 1: Duine was a black accordion player in southwest Louisiana who 519 00:40:09,916 --> 00:40:14,876 Speaker 1: recorded almost everything that he made was with a white fiddler, 520 00:40:14,996 --> 00:40:19,756 Speaker 1: Dennis McGee. So it's an instance of neither black nor white, 521 00:40:19,876 --> 00:40:23,476 Speaker 1: but together and when you listen to their recordings, you 522 00:40:23,556 --> 00:40:27,156 Speaker 1: can they're so hand in glove. It's not like it's 523 00:40:27,196 --> 00:40:30,476 Speaker 1: two friends playing together. It's like two brothers playing together. 524 00:40:32,116 --> 00:40:36,236 Speaker 1: The American birth riot is fusion, the talent for blending 525 00:40:36,276 --> 00:40:41,076 Speaker 1: things together and making something new. For every Henry Ford 526 00:40:41,156 --> 00:40:45,276 Speaker 1: trying to separate us, there are a hundred amade adwas 527 00:40:45,316 --> 00:41:13,316 Speaker 1: and Dennis McGee's making music together like brothers. The most 528 00:41:13,436 --> 00:41:31,716 Speaker 1: beautiful fucking thing you've ever heard. I say goodbye to 529 00:41:31,836 --> 00:41:35,156 Speaker 1: Chris King and the beautiful sounds on shell It Disks. 530 00:41:35,796 --> 00:41:41,076 Speaker 1: I have an appointment with the memory of Alcyone. I 531 00:41:41,276 --> 00:41:46,596 Speaker 1: maintain that truth is a powerless land and cannot be 532 00:41:46,756 --> 00:41:53,156 Speaker 1: approached by any part whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. Truth, 533 00:41:53,236 --> 00:42:01,156 Speaker 1: being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any part whatsoever, cannot be organized. 534 00:42:01,836 --> 00:42:05,596 Speaker 1: Gurus on the Beach, Colonizes on the Astral Plane, and 535 00:42:05,716 --> 00:42:09,516 Speaker 1: a very special guest in the Quincy family home that's 536 00:42:09,596 --> 00:42:19,836 Speaker 1: next week on Into the Zone. Into the Zone is 537 00:42:19,876 --> 00:42:24,556 Speaker 1: produced by Ryder also and Hunter Braithwaite. Our editor is 538 00:42:24,636 --> 00:42:29,356 Speaker 1: Julia Barton. Mire La Belle is our executive producer. Martin 539 00:42:29,476 --> 00:42:33,876 Speaker 1: Gonzalez is our engineer music for This episode composed by 540 00:42:33,996 --> 00:42:38,796 Speaker 1: Griffin Jennings. Our theme song is composed by Sarah K. Pedinatti. 541 00:42:39,316 --> 00:42:43,676 Speaker 1: Also known as lip Talk Special thanks to Jacob Weisberg, 542 00:42:44,076 --> 00:42:50,156 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, John Schnaz, Maya Kanig, Carlie Migliori, Eric Sandler, 543 00:42:50,756 --> 00:42:54,796 Speaker 1: Emily Rostick, and Maggie Taylor. Into the Zone is a 544 00:42:54,796 --> 00:42:58,836 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you enjoyed this episode, please 545 00:42:58,836 --> 00:43:01,716 Speaker 1: consider letting others know. The best way to do this 546 00:43:01,836 --> 00:43:04,796 Speaker 1: is by rating us on Apple Podcasts. You could even 547 00:43:04,796 --> 00:43:25,876 Speaker 1: write a review. See you next week. I'm Harry Kunzru