WEBVTT - Look a Man in His Eyes 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:04.960 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:08.840 those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.400 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or their employees. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.840 This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:17.640 suitable for everyone listening to. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.880 Discretion is advised. Radical is released every Tuesday and brought 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.840 to you absolutely free, but if you want to add 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.800 free listening and early access to next week's episode, subscribe 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:35.720 to tenderfoot Plus. For more information, check out tenderfootplus dot com. 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:49.440 Enjoy the episode Campsite Media. At a court hearing less 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.720 than a week after September eleventh, the judge overseeing a 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.520 Ma'am Jamil Alamine's case gave both sides a chance to 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.480 speak at length. Reading the transcript of the hearing, the 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.080 lofty lefelanguage that we often hear in court rooms, it 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.480 seemed even more elevated that day, like everyone was speaking 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.720 for posterity, calling on their deepest beliefs to make sense 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:14.200 of the events. Jack Martin, the lead defense attorney for 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.160 a Ma'am Jamil, he stepped up to the podium facing 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:19.920 the judge. He noted for the record that in the 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.160 aftermath of nine to eleven, there had been a tacks 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.480 on Muslim Americans and that maschids across the country had 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:29.520 been desecrated and defiled. As lawyers, Martin said, we must 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.880 be realists. We must recognize that our judicial system is 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.560 far from perfect, hardly immune from the temper of the times. 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:41.120 He asked that the trial be postponed. In court, a 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.959 Maam Jamil usually wore a white thobe and a coofe, 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.720 but at this hearing he chose to wear his jail clothes, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.640 apparently so he wouldn't attract threats and his Muslim garb. 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:57.120 He stepped up to the podium. I stand ready and 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.760 seeking resolution of an unjust situation. He said, I am 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.760 innocent of all of your charges. A Maam Jamille said 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.560 he wanted the trial to move forward despite the Islamophobic 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.680 fervor in America, but he would submit to his lawyer's 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.120 recommendations that it be postponed. Then he used the moment 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.880 to speak his mind. He had been silent from addressing 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:19.960 the public by a gag order, but the judge let 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:25.000 him talk over the prosecutor's objections. His remarks were grandiose 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.040 and prophetic at times. He seemed to be talking about 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:33.600 himself like a martyr. I am told that a trial 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.800 at this time is not wise. He said that fear 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.280 of silenced reason, that the cry for vengeance is too loud, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.440 that the thirst for blood must be quenched, that the 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.320 orgy of murder must be played out, that all the 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.359 people must be made to eat and drink of it. 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.840 If your trying and killing me satisfies your taste for 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.000 the Muslim blood and spares the life of Muslim women 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.840 and children. Though I do not complain about my situation, 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.960 I'm advised that because of patriotism in this country, I 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.440 am unable to have a fair trial. Shouldn't it be 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:10.640 the opposite in a land that has said that freedom 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.840 is the pinnacle of its moral argument, that life, liberty, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.640 and the pursuit of happiness is its banner of moral authority, 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.440 that justice is its master virtue, the scales upon which 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.640 is weighed its law and order. Or is that just 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:29.480 a dream speech. At one point, AmAm Jamil apparently turned 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.240 away from the judge and faced the prosecutor's table as 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.280 if speaking to them. The judge told a manage Meil 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:40.120 to face her. He continued, justice in law marches to 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.440 two different drummers. Justice in law are two different in 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:48.520 distinct conversations. I'm reminded that freedom is not free. I'm 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:50.880 reminded of a quote from Huey P. Long, who was 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:54.360 once governor of Louisiana, when he was asked would fascism 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:58.400 come to America, and he replied, yes, fascism will come 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:09.360 to America, but it will be called patriotism. Imagine a 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.320 kind of justice built on a divine awareness that knows 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.200 people's true intentions and sees the causes and effects of 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:21.080 people's actions across vast histories. AmAm Jamil evoked the justice 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.560 like this that day in court, with all of its 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.720 religious overtones. He seemed to say, if it is justice 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.480 in this grander, all knowing sense, that I be executed 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.160 even though I am innocent, I accept my faith. Not 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.520 only that, hurry up and get on with it. But 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:42.600 there was also a contradiction. He believed that a court 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.520 of law could set him free if only people would 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:53.520 consider the facts as he saw them. From Camside Media, 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:59.400 Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart podcasts, This is Radical, I'm Mostly 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:22.919 Secret Episode four, Look a Man in his Eyes. The 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.640 prosecution like a Ma'am Damiel's defense team didn't think a 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.520 fair trial would be possible. The judge agreed, and she 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.920 postponed the case until January of two thousand and two. 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:37.000 A Mam Jamil's trial was scheduled to begin nearly two 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:46.919 years after the shootout in the West End. When people 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:51.359 are charged with crimes, most eventually plead guilty. I watched 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.400 this play out countless times when I was covering the 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.599 courts for the New York Times. But in death penalty 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.640 cases like a Ma'am jimials, the option of negotiating a 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.800 pleading was essentially taken off the table. Even defendants who 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.560 knew they fucked up and were inclined to take responsibility, 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.800 they could still be sentenced to death, so they would 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.640 end up in court defending their lives, working with their 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.799 lawyers to pull some kind of story together for the jury. 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.880 Who has the winning story? That's not necessarily the same 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.919 question as whose story is the most true? I wonder 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.479 if seeking the death penalty if it can actually hide 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:32.000 more truth than it reveals. The lead prosecutor for the 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.600 Fulton County District Attorney's Office was a man named Robert McBurney. 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.279 A man who had devoted his working life to the 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.400 criminal court system. 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:44.120 It's not perfect. Their biases and plenty of examples where 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.719 because of someone's race or lack of means or gender 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.240 that things went horribly wrong, and we need to stay 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.520 focused on those and do what we can to correct them. 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.240 But by and large, once you get into court, so 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.400 it's not saying on the policing side say, once you 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.159 get into court, we've got a system that works pretty well. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.000 Not long after he finished law school back in the nineties, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.719 McBurnie took a job with the Fulton County DA. A 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.160 few years later, he left to join a private law firm, 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:11.960 but he realized it wasn't his thing. 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.280 And I got a call from the lead investigator on 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.240 the Olamine case in the District Attorney's office and said, hey, 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.800 would you come back if I could get you on 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.200 the Olamine case. And I thought that I'd be interesting 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.440 the fascinating case, lots of moving parts. Fbis involved this 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.680 and that, and so I kicked it around for a 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.160 little bit, and I missed being a prosecutor. I like 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.080 being a prosecutor, And so I returned to the DA's 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.280 office and picked that up. 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.480 AmAm Jamil's case was the biggest of mcburney's relatively young career. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.840 Prosecuting a single case became his full time job. He 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.800 could hardly have stepped into a role with higher stakes. 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.120 There would be two phases to the trial. In the 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.920 first phase, a jury would decide if mam Jamil was 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.680 innocent or guilty, and if they convicted him, then in 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.400 a second phase, the same jury would choose whether he 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.000 should spend the rest of his life in prison or 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.200 if the State of Georgia should execute him. A mam 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.440 Jamil's lead attorney, Jack Martin, He said that because it 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.440 was a death penalty trial, he and the defense team 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:21.280 they had to adjust their strategy. 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.400 Do you have to worry not only about what he 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.760 can do to gain a client acquitted, but also what 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:30.880 happens if he gets convicted? How do we make sure 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:32.040 you don't get the death penalty? 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.000 If the defense were to take a big risk, like 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.160 putting forward a theory that was too outlandish or a 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.560 witness who wasn't totally credible, they might lose the trust 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.160 of the jury. And then if a man Jamil got convicted, 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.040 the jury might not believe defense lawyers When they argue 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:54.640 that a Mam Jamil should keep his life. Let me 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:57.679 set the scene for you a little. The courtroom was 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:02.679 a modern looking one, tan carpeted floors, brown theater style 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.480 seats in the gallery, not the old Hartwood benches, computer 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.240 monitors on the tables. A Maam Jamil and his white 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.800 thob and coofy sat at a table next to his 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:17.040 legal team. The lawyers wore suits and ties. A man 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.280 Jamil's wife Karema and their young son Kyrie. They sat 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.640 close to each other behind the defense table. Members of 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.000 the Weston Mass Gifts showed up two. The courtroom was full. 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.240 You knew court was officially in session each day When 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:35.600 the bailiffs commanded all rise, everyone in the courtroom was 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.360 expected to stand up and share respect when the judge entered. 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.719 Same thing when the jury walked in. But a Mam 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:42.800 Jamil wouldn't do it. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.640 He said, this is contrary to my religion. Don't stand 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.760 for anybody but Dalla. And the judge was spuried accommodating 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.360 about that. She said, that's no big deal, you don't 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:53.920 have to stand. 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.079 The courtroom was tense, even more so than a typical 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:02.520 trial nine eleven wasn't that far off. The gallery was 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.600 full of people from a community that was wary of 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.599 law enforcement, and the Sheriff's office responsible for security in 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.160 the court building. It was the same office that Deputy 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.679 Kinchen had worked for and Deputy English was still working for. 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.080 The judge must have sensed this. She ordered that if 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.960 law enforcement came to the trial of Spectators, they couldn't 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.160 wear their uniforms. But that didn't stop the new Black 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.400 Panther Party from showing up one day wearing all black fatigues, 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.040 and so when it was time for opening statements, this 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.160 was how the courtroom felt when Robert mcfernie and his 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:37.920 team laid out their case. 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:39.160 For the jury. 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.000 The prosecution argument began with a recitation of some of 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.000 what English called out as he lay in the field 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.200 next to the mast it please don't shoot me anymore. 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:54.000 Don't shoot me anymore. From there their argument went like this. 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.280 Kenchin and English were just doing their job. They went 0:10:58.320 --> 0:10:59.920 to the West End with a warrant to arrest them, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.880 Ma'am Jamil, And when Kenchin pulled her car up in 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.319 front of Amm Jamil's black Mercedes and the deputies got 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.559 out a Mam Jamil fired at the deputies. Here's the prosecutor, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:11.880 Robert McBurney. 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.360 He produced not a small gun but an assault rifle, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.560 killed one deputy and severely injured another. We know where 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.800 Kinchin was. He didn't get very far and English was 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:22.760 able to testify as to where he started and then 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.080 he collapsed in the field over by the mass. 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.760 Jit At the hospital, English had idea to Mam Jamil 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.960 in a photo lineup and that was still his story. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.520 Then there was the state's physical evidence. Dozens of shell 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.760 casings and bullets were recovered from the scene in the 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:42.120 West End, and after AmAm Jamil was arrested in Loudon County, Alabama, 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.760 FBI agents found guns in the woods, presumably that AmAm 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:50.000 Jamil had dropped while fleeing federal agents. Ballistics analysts found 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.320 that those guns matched bullets that killed Kenchin and wounded English, 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.600 and there was more physical evidence from Lowndes County. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.880 He fled in a Mercedes that was found in Alabama 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.240 with bullet holes that were consistent with his gun as 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:04.520 well as the deputy's guns. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.280 So for McBurnie and his prosecution team, the physical evidence 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.160 clearly matched English's testimony. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.439 Based on the entrance wounds for Kinschin, the entrance wounds 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.719 for English, all of the bullet holes in the Mercedes. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.720 It really wasn't all that controversial as to who was 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.480 standing where. What was controversial was who was the person 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.600 standing next to the Mercedes, And I don't think that 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:32.120 was controversial. That was Alaman. 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.360 It was a strong case, but there were still opportunities 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.839 for the defense to create doubt in the minds. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:46.880 Of the jury. 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.440 AmAm Dmil's defense team. Their strategy was to point out 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.360 all the inconsistencies in the prosecution's case to show their 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.920 evidence was flawed. I hardly need to remind you in 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.480 this trial episode of the podcast that the prosecution needed 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.080 to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a Maam Jamil 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.520 shot Deputy Kenchin and Deputy English, and that a Maam 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.600 Jamil's lawyers they didn't need to prove he was innocent. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.520 They just needed to create enough doubt in the minds 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:19.160 of the jury. Really, even one juror to pull off 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:23.520 that argument. It required a good amount of skepticism, especially 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:28.160 of law enforcement. A Maam Jamil's lawyers they were defense attorneys, 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:32.360 so sure they were inclined to be skeptical of official accounts. 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:37.400 But the defense team's investigator, wa Tani tahimba his skepticism. 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:46.200 It was on a whole another level. Whata Tani and 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.480 a Maam Jamil are around the same age. Watani spent 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:51.200 time in Los Angeles when he was young. 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.280 I was directly impacted by the Watch rebellion. You know, 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.720 the National Guard was like an occupying army for us. 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.839 Became very obvious that we were oppressed. Put guns on 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.160 ers and tell us to go back in the house 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.840 with dusted don curfew. All those kind of things raised 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.760 your consciousness. And so I was a young man coming 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.360 up into my consciousness. In the nineteen. 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.400 Sixties, Whatatani joined the Black Power movement, and like a 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.280 Ma'am Jamil, he was surveilled by the FBI. That didn't 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.440 inspire a lot of trust and law enforcement. Watani and 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.680 a Maam Jamil knew each other before this case. In 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.840 the late eighties, Whatatani moved to Atlanta started working as 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.400 a criminal investigator, always on the defense side, the side 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.640 against the state. He worked a lot for my dad. Actually, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.280 most if not all, of Watani's clients were black. They 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.440 called him unk and he built relationships with them, talked 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.360 about novels with them on occasion. It was sort of 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:51.280 a continuation of his work in the movement. Months before 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.000 the trial began, whata Tani was doing his thing, interviewing 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.040 potential witnesses and gathering new evidence. He knew that testimony 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:03.080 from English would be key to the prosecution's case. Remember 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.720 that it was the morning after the shootout, when English 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.040 was still in the hospital recovering from surgery, that a 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:13.400 detective from the Atlanta Police Department first interviewed him. Watani 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.120 learned that English had received the total of ten milligrams 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.200 of morphine and during the prior twenty four hours he 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.240 had also lost a lot of blood. An expert said 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.480 his mental faculties would have been impaired. But the morning 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.240 after surgery, the detective he decided English was ready to 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.280 tell him what happened the night before an English id 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.960 to man Jamil in the photo lineup. Watani looked for 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.840 any outside information that might have influenced English's id between 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.040 the night he was shot in the West End and 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:46.040 that morning in the hospital. Almost immediately after the shootout, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:52.440 Atlanta's local TV stations they were all over the story. 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:57.040 The English in the hospital watching the news, and so 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.680 they are talking about Jamil, and he sees the one news. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:02.840 So I went to talk to the doctors and people 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.400 in the staff there, and they said they confirmed he 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.320 was watching into television. And then I came back and 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.400 the guy retracted. He says, well, I really can't, can't. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:13.360 I don't really. 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.640 Remember now the doctor retracted, Yes. 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.680 Doctor retracted it. One of the sheriffs took the stand 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.960 to testify. She said that when she acad in it, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.200 she unplugged the television so he would not be able 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:29.480 to see and and misidentify anybody. So, you know, like 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.280 what gives her the presence of mind? I said, let 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:32.560 me just unplug this television. 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.520 But Tani didn't tell me the name of the doctor 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.120 who attracted his statement. And I'm not sure that I 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.920 would have gotten a conclusive answer to this question all 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.640 these years later. So it's hard for me to make 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.360 much of this one way or the other, except that 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.080 with Tani, he really did not trust English's identification of 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:59.680 a man Jamil. At the trial, after both sides gave 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.120 their winning arguments, the prosecution called English to the stand 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.080 their first witness. He sat to the right of the 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:10.240 judge wearing his tan uniform in a dark brown tie. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:17.560 The lead prosecutor, Robert McBurney examined his witness. English rehashed 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.359 his account of that night he and Kinchin were in 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:21.200 the West End. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:21.840 With a warrant. 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.760 They pulled up on a black Mercedes and English asked 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:26.600 the man getting out of the car to show his 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.280 right hand. Then the man pulled out a rifle and 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:36.040 started firing. McBurney asked English, what went through your mind 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.159 when you saw that assault rifle pointed at you. English 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:44.200 lost his composure, started crying, wiped tears from his eyes 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.680 with his thumb in one of his fingers. He took 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:51.560 a deep breath, um that I was about to die 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.720 when he started shooting. I thought about my kids, thought 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.240 about my wife, and I asked myself as I was running, 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:05.159 what have I done to deserve this? Holding a clipboard, 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.520 McBurney moved to stand behind the defense table, not far 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.840 from what Tani and behind a Ma'am Jamial who sat 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:18.120 almost perfectly still expressionless. Is this the man who had 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.720 the assault rifle that night? McBurney asked, as English looked 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:26.120 at a Mam Jamial. Yes it is, Sir, said English, 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:32.200 did you see anyone else that night with an assault rifle? No, sir, 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.240 is this the man who fired the assault rifle at you? Yes, 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:46.960 it is, said English. Jack Martin did the cross examination methodically. 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.800 Martin had English recount his memories of the shootout, but 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.399 Martin tried to undermine his credibility. He read back to 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:58.000 English inconsistencies between his testimony and statements he had made 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:05.520 to law enforcement. One of the inconsistencies was that English 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.760 said he prided himself on his marksmanship, and he was 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.720 sure he shot a man Jamial. But remember when a 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:16.439 man Jamial was arrested in Alabama, he was uninjured. And 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.840 then in an interview with a detective, English said this 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.800 about his encounter with the shooter. Quote, my mom always 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.720 told me, look a man in his eye, Always look 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.479 a man in his eyes. I looked him in his eyes. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.240 I remember them, gray eyes. I remember that face, that 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:37.880 cold face. So I couldn't forget that. But a man 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:44.719 Jamil didn't have gray eyes. His eyes were brown. English 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.439 stood to reenact the details of his encounter with the shooter. 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:52.080 When Martin asked about the shooter's eye color, English insisted 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.720 that Mamjamial was wearing yellow glasses, suggesting that was the 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.200 reason he thought of Mam Jamial's eyes were gray. Martin 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.000 pointed out that and the statements English gave to detectives 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:06.000 he didn't mention anything about yellow glasses. Martin kept pressing 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.160 the point, and the prosecutor mcburniey he objected, claiming Martin 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:17.359 was being argumentative. Eventually, Martin moved on. Wa Tani watched 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:19.320 English's testimony from the defense table. 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.080 Did the English. 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.879 Testimony is that memorable to you at all? Or do 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:27.440 you remember how you were feeling about that? 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:28.359 Yeah? 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.600 I thought he was lying, but that was my good feeling. Yeah, 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.920 I mean he saw him on television and he looked 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:36.640 at this stuff, and they say, I'll never forget those 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:41.399 gray eyes. I believe that's what happened. And they use 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:43.399 the gray eyes to try to emphasize, Oh, yeah. 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.320 It's him, because it's so unique that a black person 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.920 would have great because it's unforgettable. 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:48.879 On the paper. 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.560 But that thing, what you saw ful the paper, what 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.960 Tani is talking about. He means the warrant. On the warrant, 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:01.360 a man Jamil's eye color was listed incorrectly, as so 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.120 English's whole story about his mama telling him to look 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.080 a man in the eyes sounds kind of funny. It 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.159 created a suspicion that he might have been trying to 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.679 pin the shooting on a man Jamial. After English's testimony 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.199 later in the trial, the prosecution called the ballistics analyst 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:20.959 from George's crime lab to the witness stand. McBurney questioned 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.800 the analyst he held up the nine milimeters pistol and 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.919 the Ruger Many fourteen semi automatic rifle found close to 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.119 where a Mam Jamial was captured. The rifle was a 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.200 unique and powerful gun. Even though it was semi automatic, 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.840 it could still be fired rapidly, and it had a 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.320 retractable stock so it could be compact fired from the 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.520 hip or extended and fired like a rifle typically is 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.199 from the shoulder. The analyst said that a bullet from 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.520 the rifle must have hit Kinchin with the caveat that 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.840 if there was another ruger Many fourteen at the scene, 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.760 she couldn't tell the difference between the two, and the 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:00.560 analyst testified that a bullet from the pistol the same 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.040 one Bernie held up in the courtroom, that it hit 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:03.800 Deputy Kenchin. 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:04.840 Period. 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.280 Here's the defense attorney Jack Martin. 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.200 The gun evidence was very problematic for us. It was 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.199 a difficult thing for us to overcome. But you know, 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.400 we had some explanations for it, but it was more difficult, 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:21.920 including why would he take it all the way to Alabama. 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.919 Ama Jimil's defense team had argued before the trial that 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:31.000 the ballistics evidence shouldn't be included at all, but the 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.600 judge decided to allow it. Now, all they could do 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.040 was cross examine the analysts. It got really technical about 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:43.359 gas projection and surface markings, that type of stuff. But 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.600 the thing is, there are serious questions about the veracity 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:48.880 of the kinds of ballistics evidence that was presented. 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.560 To say that this gun is the gud who fired 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.400 this book is very, very difficult. There were questions about 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:58.800 whether this was a valid conclusion from a scientific point 0:22:58.800 --> 0:22:59.160 of view. 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.200 Ballistics just happens to be something I know a little 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:06.600 bit about. When I was an investigative reporter at Pro Publica, 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:09.119 I worked on a team looking into the validity of 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:13.080 the so called forensic sciences. The project eventually ran under 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.320 the headline The Real CSI, which was meant to be 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.800 a corrective to how CSI and other crime dramas hold 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.960 out ballistics analysis and other methods as infallible truth. The 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.399 work was inspired by a huge report put out by 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:33.160 the National Academy of Sciences on ballistics analysis. The Academy concluded, quote, 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:36.400 the decision of the tool mark examiner remains a subjective 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:42.119 decision based on unarticulated standards and no statistical foundation. The 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:44.360 report went on to say that it has never been 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:48.080 conclusively proven that a particular gun leaves unique markings on 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.800 the bullets at fires. But according to Jack Martin, it 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:53.800 was always going to be tough to convince the jury 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:59.159 that this evidence wasn't reliable. Do you think from your 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.880 experiences as a lawyer, do juries tend to believe ballistics evidence? 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:04.200