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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

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Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,

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Speaker 2: free listening and early access to next week's episode, subscribe

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Speaker 2: to tenderfoot Plus. For more information, check out tenderfootplus dot com.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy the episode Campsite Media. At a court hearing less

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Speaker 2: than a week after September eleventh, the judge overseeing a

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Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil Alamine's case gave both sides a chance to

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Speaker 2: speak at length. Reading the transcript of the hearing, the

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Speaker 2: lofty lefelanguage that we often hear in court rooms, it

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Speaker 2: seemed even more elevated that day, like everyone was speaking

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Speaker 2: for posterity, calling on their deepest beliefs to make sense

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Speaker 2: of the events. Jack Martin, the lead defense attorney for

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Speaker 2: a Ma'am Jamil, he stepped up to the podium facing

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Speaker 2: the judge. He noted for the record that in the

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Speaker 2: aftermath of nine to eleven, there had been a tacks

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Speaker 2: on Muslim Americans and that maschids across the country had

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Speaker 2: been desecrated and defiled. As lawyers, Martin said, we must

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Speaker 2: be realists. We must recognize that our judicial system is

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Speaker 2: far from perfect, hardly immune from the temper of the times.

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Speaker 2: He asked that the trial be postponed. In court, a

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Speaker 2: Maam Jamil usually wore a white thobe and a coofe,

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Speaker 2: but at this hearing he chose to wear his jail clothes,

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Speaker 2: apparently so he wouldn't attract threats and his Muslim garb.

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Speaker 2: He stepped up to the podium. I stand ready and

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Speaker 2: seeking resolution of an unjust situation. He said, I am

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Speaker 2: innocent of all of your charges. A Maam Jamille said

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Speaker 2: he wanted the trial to move forward despite the Islamophobic

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Speaker 2: fervor in America, but he would submit to his lawyer's

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Speaker 2: recommendations that it be postponed. Then he used the moment

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Speaker 2: to speak his mind. He had been silent from addressing

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Speaker 2: the public by a gag order, but the judge let

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Speaker 2: him talk over the prosecutor's objections. His remarks were grandiose

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Speaker 2: and prophetic at times. He seemed to be talking about

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Speaker 2: himself like a martyr. I am told that a trial

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Speaker 2: at this time is not wise. He said that fear

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Speaker 2: of silenced reason, that the cry for vengeance is too loud,

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Speaker 2: that the thirst for blood must be quenched, that the

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Speaker 2: orgy of murder must be played out, that all the

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Speaker 2: people must be made to eat and drink of it.

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Speaker 2: If your trying and killing me satisfies your taste for

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Speaker 2: the Muslim blood and spares the life of Muslim women

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Speaker 2: and children. Though I do not complain about my situation,

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Speaker 2: I'm advised that because of patriotism in this country, I

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Speaker 2: am unable to have a fair trial. Shouldn't it be

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Speaker 2: the opposite in a land that has said that freedom

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Speaker 2: is the pinnacle of its moral argument, that life, liberty,

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Speaker 2: and the pursuit of happiness is its banner of moral authority,

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Speaker 2: that justice is its master virtue, the scales upon which

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Speaker 2: is weighed its law and order. Or is that just

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Speaker 2: a dream speech. At one point, AmAm Jamil apparently turned

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Speaker 2: away from the judge and faced the prosecutor's table as

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Speaker 2: if speaking to them. The judge told a manage Meil

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Speaker 2: to face her. He continued, justice in law marches to

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Speaker 2: two different drummers. Justice in law are two different in

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Speaker 2: distinct conversations. I'm reminded that freedom is not free. I'm

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Speaker 2: reminded of a quote from Huey P. Long, who was

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Speaker 2: once governor of Louisiana, when he was asked would fascism

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Speaker 2: come to America, and he replied, yes, fascism will come

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Speaker 2: to America, but it will be called patriotism. Imagine a

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Speaker 2: kind of justice built on a divine awareness that knows

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Speaker 2: people's true intentions and sees the causes and effects of

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Speaker 2: people's actions across vast histories. AmAm Jamil evoked the justice

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Speaker 2: like this that day in court, with all of its

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Speaker 2: religious overtones. He seemed to say, if it is justice

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Speaker 2: in this grander, all knowing sense, that I be executed

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Speaker 2: even though I am innocent, I accept my faith. Not

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Speaker 2: only that, hurry up and get on with it. But

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Speaker 2: there was also a contradiction. He believed that a court

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Speaker 2: of law could set him free if only people would

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Speaker 2: consider the facts as he saw them. From Camside Media,

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Speaker 2: Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart podcasts, This is Radical, I'm Mostly

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Speaker 2: Secret Episode four, Look a Man in his Eyes. The

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Speaker 2: prosecution like a Ma'am Damiel's defense team didn't think a

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Speaker 2: fair trial would be possible. The judge agreed, and she

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Speaker 2: postponed the case until January of two thousand and two.

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Speaker 2: A Mam Jamil's trial was scheduled to begin nearly two

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Speaker 2: years after the shootout in the West End. When people

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Speaker 2: are charged with crimes, most eventually plead guilty. I watched

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Speaker 2: this play out countless times when I was covering the

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Speaker 2: courts for the New York Times. But in death penalty

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Speaker 2: cases like a Ma'am jimials, the option of negotiating a

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Speaker 2: pleading was essentially taken off the table. Even defendants who

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Speaker 2: knew they fucked up and were inclined to take responsibility,

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Speaker 2: they could still be sentenced to death, so they would

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Speaker 2: end up in court defending their lives, working with their

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Speaker 2: lawyers to pull some kind of story together for the jury.

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Speaker 2: Who has the winning story? That's not necessarily the same

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Speaker 2: question as whose story is the most true? I wonder

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Speaker 2: if seeking the death penalty if it can actually hide

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Speaker 2: more truth than it reveals. The lead prosecutor for the

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Speaker 2: Fulton County District Attorney's Office was a man named Robert McBurney.

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Speaker 2: A man who had devoted his working life to the

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Speaker 2: criminal court system.

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Speaker 3: It's not perfect. Their biases and plenty of examples where

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Speaker 3: because of someone's race or lack of means or gender

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Speaker 3: that things went horribly wrong, and we need to stay

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Speaker 3: focused on those and do what we can to correct them.

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Speaker 3: But by and large, once you get into court, so

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Speaker 3: it's not saying on the policing side say, once you

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Speaker 3: get into court, we've got a system that works pretty well.

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Speaker 2: Not long after he finished law school back in the nineties,

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Speaker 2: McBurnie took a job with the Fulton County DA. A

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Speaker 2: few years later, he left to join a private law firm,

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Speaker 2: but he realized it wasn't his thing.

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Speaker 3: And I got a call from the lead investigator on

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Speaker 3: the Olamine case in the District Attorney's office and said, hey,

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Speaker 3: would you come back if I could get you on

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Speaker 3: the Olamine case. And I thought that I'd be interesting

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Speaker 3: the fascinating case, lots of moving parts. Fbis involved this

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Speaker 3: and that, and so I kicked it around for a

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Speaker 3: little bit, and I missed being a prosecutor. I like

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Speaker 3: being a prosecutor, And so I returned to the DA's

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Speaker 3: office and picked that up.

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Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil's case was the biggest of mcburney's relatively young career.

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Speaker 2: Prosecuting a single case became his full time job. He

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Speaker 2: could hardly have stepped into a role with higher stakes.

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Speaker 2: There would be two phases to the trial. In the

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Speaker 2: first phase, a jury would decide if mam Jamil was

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Speaker 2: innocent or guilty, and if they convicted him, then in

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Speaker 2: a second phase, the same jury would choose whether he

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Speaker 2: should spend the rest of his life in prison or

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Speaker 2: if the State of Georgia should execute him. A mam

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Speaker 2: Jamil's lead attorney, Jack Martin, He said that because it

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Speaker 2: was a death penalty trial, he and the defense team

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Speaker 2: they had to adjust their strategy.

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Speaker 4: Do you have to worry not only about what he

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Speaker 4: can do to gain a client acquitted, but also what

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Speaker 4: happens if he gets convicted? How do we make sure

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Speaker 4: you don't get the death penalty?

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Speaker 2: If the defense were to take a big risk, like

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Speaker 2: putting forward a theory that was too outlandish or a

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Speaker 2: witness who wasn't totally credible, they might lose the trust

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Speaker 2: of the jury. And then if a man Jamil got convicted,

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Speaker 2: the jury might not believe defense lawyers When they argue

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Speaker 2: that a Mam Jamil should keep his life. Let me

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Speaker 2: set the scene for you a little. The courtroom was

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Speaker 2: a modern looking one, tan carpeted floors, brown theater style

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Speaker 2: seats in the gallery, not the old Hartwood benches, computer

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Speaker 2: monitors on the tables. A Maam Jamil and his white

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Speaker 2: thob and coofy sat at a table next to his

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Speaker 2: legal team. The lawyers wore suits and ties. A man

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Speaker 2: Jamil's wife Karema and their young son Kyrie. They sat

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Speaker 2: close to each other behind the defense table. Members of

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Speaker 2: the Weston Mass Gifts showed up two. The courtroom was full.

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Speaker 2: You knew court was officially in session each day When

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Speaker 2: the bailiffs commanded all rise, everyone in the courtroom was

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Speaker 2: expected to stand up and share respect when the judge entered.

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Speaker 2: Same thing when the jury walked in. But a Mam

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Speaker 2: Jamil wouldn't do it.

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Speaker 4: He said, this is contrary to my religion. Don't stand

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Speaker 4: for anybody but Dalla. And the judge was spuried accommodating

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Speaker 4: about that. She said, that's no big deal, you don't

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Speaker 4: have to stand.

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Speaker 2: The courtroom was tense, even more so than a typical

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Speaker 2: trial nine eleven wasn't that far off. The gallery was

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Speaker 2: full of people from a community that was wary of

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Speaker 2: law enforcement, and the Sheriff's office responsible for security in

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Speaker 2: the court building. It was the same office that Deputy

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Speaker 2: Kinchen had worked for and Deputy English was still working for.

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Speaker 2: The judge must have sensed this. She ordered that if

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Speaker 2: law enforcement came to the trial of Spectators, they couldn't

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Speaker 2: wear their uniforms. But that didn't stop the new Black

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Speaker 2: Panther Party from showing up one day wearing all black fatigues,

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Speaker 2: and so when it was time for opening statements, this

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Speaker 2: was how the courtroom felt when Robert mcfernie and his

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Speaker 2: team laid out their case.

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Speaker 4: For the jury.

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Speaker 2: The prosecution argument began with a recitation of some of

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Speaker 2: what English called out as he lay in the field

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Speaker 2: next to the mast it please don't shoot me anymore.

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Speaker 2: Don't shoot me anymore. From there their argument went like this.

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Speaker 2: Kenchin and English were just doing their job. They went

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Speaker 2: to the West End with a warrant to arrest them,

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Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil, And when Kenchin pulled her car up in

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Speaker 2: front of Amm Jamil's black Mercedes and the deputies got

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Speaker 2: out a Mam Jamil fired at the deputies. Here's the prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: Robert McBurney.

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Speaker 3: He produced not a small gun but an assault rifle,

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Speaker 3: killed one deputy and severely injured another. We know where

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Speaker 3: Kinchin was. He didn't get very far and English was

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Speaker 3: able to testify as to where he started and then

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Speaker 3: he collapsed in the field over by the mass.

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Speaker 2: Jit At the hospital, English had idea to Mam Jamil

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Speaker 2: in a photo lineup and that was still his story.

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Speaker 2: Then there was the state's physical evidence. Dozens of shell

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Speaker 2: casings and bullets were recovered from the scene in the

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Speaker 2: West End, and after AmAm Jamil was arrested in Loudon County, Alabama,

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Speaker 2: FBI agents found guns in the woods, presumably that AmAm

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Speaker 2: Jamil had dropped while fleeing federal agents. Ballistics analysts found

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Speaker 2: that those guns matched bullets that killed Kenchin and wounded English,

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Speaker 2: and there was more physical evidence from Lowndes County.

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Speaker 3: He fled in a Mercedes that was found in Alabama

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Speaker 3: with bullet holes that were consistent with his gun as

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Speaker 3: well as the deputy's guns.

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Speaker 2: So for McBurnie and his prosecution team, the physical evidence

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Speaker 2: clearly matched English's testimony.

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Speaker 3: Based on the entrance wounds for Kinschin, the entrance wounds

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Speaker 3: for English, all of the bullet holes in the Mercedes.

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Speaker 3: It really wasn't all that controversial as to who was

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Speaker 3: standing where. What was controversial was who was the person

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Speaker 3: standing next to the Mercedes, And I don't think that

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Speaker 3: was controversial. That was Alaman.

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Speaker 2: It was a strong case, but there were still opportunities

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Speaker 2: for the defense to create doubt in the minds.

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Speaker 5: Of the jury.

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Speaker 2: AmAm Dmil's defense team. Their strategy was to point out

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Speaker 2: all the inconsistencies in the prosecution's case to show their

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Speaker 2: evidence was flawed. I hardly need to remind you in

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Speaker 2: this trial episode of the podcast that the prosecution needed

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Speaker 2: to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a Maam Jamil

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Speaker 2: shot Deputy Kenchin and Deputy English, and that a Maam

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Speaker 2: Jamil's lawyers they didn't need to prove he was innocent.

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Speaker 2: They just needed to create enough doubt in the minds

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Speaker 2: of the jury. Really, even one juror to pull off

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Speaker 2: that argument. It required a good amount of skepticism, especially

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Speaker 2: of law enforcement. A Maam Jamil's lawyers they were defense attorneys,

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Speaker 2: so sure they were inclined to be skeptical of official accounts.

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Speaker 2: But the defense team's investigator, wa Tani tahimba his skepticism.

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Speaker 2: It was on a whole another level. Whata Tani and

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Speaker 2: a Maam Jamil are around the same age. Watani spent

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Speaker 2: time in Los Angeles when he was young.

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Speaker 6: I was directly impacted by the Watch rebellion. You know,

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Speaker 6: the National Guard was like an occupying army for us.

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Speaker 6: Became very obvious that we were oppressed. Put guns on

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Speaker 6: ers and tell us to go back in the house

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Speaker 6: with dusted don curfew. All those kind of things raised

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Speaker 6: your consciousness. And so I was a young man coming

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Speaker 6: up into my consciousness. In the nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Sixties, Whatatani joined the Black Power movement, and like a

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Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil, he was surveilled by the FBI. That didn't

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Speaker 2: inspire a lot of trust and law enforcement. Watani and

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Speaker 2: a Maam Jamil knew each other before this case. In

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Speaker 2: the late eighties, Whatatani moved to Atlanta started working as

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Speaker 2: a criminal investigator, always on the defense side, the side

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Speaker 2: against the state. He worked a lot for my dad. Actually,

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Speaker 2: most if not all, of Watani's clients were black. They

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Speaker 2: called him unk and he built relationships with them, talked

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Speaker 2: about novels with them on occasion. It was sort of

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Speaker 2: a continuation of his work in the movement. Months before

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Speaker 2: the trial began, whata Tani was doing his thing, interviewing

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Speaker 2: potential witnesses and gathering new evidence. He knew that testimony

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Speaker 2: from English would be key to the prosecution's case. Remember

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Speaker 2: that it was the morning after the shootout, when English

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Speaker 2: was still in the hospital recovering from surgery, that a

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Speaker 2: detective from the Atlanta Police Department first interviewed him. Watani

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Speaker 2: learned that English had received the total of ten milligrams

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Speaker 2: of morphine and during the prior twenty four hours he

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Speaker 2: had also lost a lot of blood. An expert said

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Speaker 2: his mental faculties would have been impaired. But the morning

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Speaker 2: after surgery, the detective he decided English was ready to

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Speaker 2: tell him what happened the night before an English id

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Speaker 2: to man Jamil in the photo lineup. Watani looked for

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Speaker 2: any outside information that might have influenced English's id between

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Speaker 2: the night he was shot in the West End and

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Speaker 2: that morning in the hospital. Almost immediately after the shootout,

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Speaker 2: Atlanta's local TV stations they were all over the story.

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Speaker 6: The English in the hospital watching the news, and so

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Speaker 6: they are talking about Jamil, and he sees the one news.

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Speaker 6: So I went to talk to the doctors and people

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Speaker 6: in the staff there, and they said they confirmed he

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Speaker 6: was watching into television. And then I came back and

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Speaker 6: the guy retracted. He says, well, I really can't, can't.

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Speaker 6: I don't really.

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Speaker 2: Remember now the doctor retracted, Yes.

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Speaker 6: Doctor retracted it. One of the sheriffs took the stand

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Speaker 6: to testify. She said that when she acad in it,

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Speaker 6: she unplugged the television so he would not be able

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Speaker 6: to see and and misidentify anybody. So, you know, like

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Speaker 6: what gives her the presence of mind? I said, let

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Speaker 6: me just unplug this television.

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Speaker 2: But Tani didn't tell me the name of the doctor

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Speaker 2: who attracted his statement. And I'm not sure that I

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Speaker 2: would have gotten a conclusive answer to this question all

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Speaker 2: these years later. So it's hard for me to make

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Speaker 2: much of this one way or the other, except that

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Speaker 2: with Tani, he really did not trust English's identification of

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Speaker 2: a man Jamil. At the trial, after both sides gave

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00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,120
Speaker 2: their winning arguments, the prosecution called English to the stand

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Speaker 2: their first witness. He sat to the right of the

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Speaker 2: judge wearing his tan uniform in a dark brown tie.

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Speaker 2: The lead prosecutor, Robert McBurney examined his witness. English rehashed

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Speaker 2: his account of that night he and Kinchin were in

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Speaker 2: the West End.

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Speaker 5: With a warrant.

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Speaker 2: They pulled up on a black Mercedes and English asked

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Speaker 2: the man getting out of the car to show his

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Speaker 2: right hand. Then the man pulled out a rifle and

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Speaker 2: started firing. McBurney asked English, what went through your mind

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Speaker 2: when you saw that assault rifle pointed at you. English

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00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 2: lost his composure, started crying, wiped tears from his eyes

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Speaker 2: with his thumb in one of his fingers. He took

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Speaker 2: a deep breath, um that I was about to die

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Speaker 2: when he started shooting. I thought about my kids, thought

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Speaker 2: about my wife, and I asked myself as I was running,

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Speaker 2: what have I done to deserve this? Holding a clipboard,

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Speaker 2: McBurney moved to stand behind the defense table, not far

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Speaker 2: from what Tani and behind a Ma'am Jamial who sat

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Speaker 2: almost perfectly still expressionless. Is this the man who had

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Speaker 2: the assault rifle that night? McBurney asked, as English looked

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Speaker 2: at a Mam Jamial. Yes it is, Sir, said English,

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Speaker 2: did you see anyone else that night with an assault rifle? No, sir,

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Speaker 2: is this the man who fired the assault rifle at you? Yes,

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Speaker 2: it is, said English. Jack Martin did the cross examination methodically.

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Speaker 2: Martin had English recount his memories of the shootout, but

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Speaker 2: Martin tried to undermine his credibility. He read back to

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Speaker 2: English inconsistencies between his testimony and statements he had made

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Speaker 2: to law enforcement. One of the inconsistencies was that English

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Speaker 2: said he prided himself on his marksmanship, and he was

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Speaker 2: sure he shot a man Jamial. But remember when a

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Speaker 2: man Jamial was arrested in Alabama, he was uninjured. And

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Speaker 2: then in an interview with a detective, English said this

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Speaker 2: about his encounter with the shooter. Quote, my mom always

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Speaker 2: told me, look a man in his eye, Always look

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Speaker 2: a man in his eyes. I looked him in his eyes.

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Speaker 2: I remember them, gray eyes. I remember that face, that

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Speaker 2: cold face. So I couldn't forget that. But a man

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Speaker 2: Jamil didn't have gray eyes. His eyes were brown. English

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Speaker 2: stood to reenact the details of his encounter with the shooter.

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Speaker 2: When Martin asked about the shooter's eye color, English insisted

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Speaker 2: that Mamjamial was wearing yellow glasses, suggesting that was the

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Speaker 2: reason he thought of Mam Jamial's eyes were gray. Martin

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Speaker 2: pointed out that and the statements English gave to detectives

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Speaker 2: he didn't mention anything about yellow glasses. Martin kept pressing

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Speaker 2: the point, and the prosecutor mcburniey he objected, claiming Martin

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Speaker 2: was being argumentative. Eventually, Martin moved on. Wa Tani watched

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Speaker 2: English's testimony from the defense table.

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Speaker 5: Did the English.

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Speaker 2: Testimony is that memorable to you at all? Or do

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Speaker 2: you remember how you were feeling about that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I thought he was lying, but that was my good feeling. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: I mean he saw him on television and he looked

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Speaker 6: at this stuff, and they say, I'll never forget those

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00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 6: gray eyes. I believe that's what happened. And they use

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Speaker 6: the gray eyes to try to emphasize, Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 5: It's him, because it's so unique that a black person

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Speaker 5: would have great because it's unforgettable.

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Speaker 6: On the paper.

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Speaker 2: But that thing, what you saw ful the paper, what

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Speaker 2: Tani is talking about. He means the warrant. On the warrant,

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Speaker 2: a man Jamil's eye color was listed incorrectly, as so

347
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Speaker 2: English's whole story about his mama telling him to look

348
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Speaker 2: a man in the eyes sounds kind of funny. It

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Speaker 2: created a suspicion that he might have been trying to

350
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Speaker 2: pin the shooting on a man Jamial. After English's testimony

351
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Speaker 2: later in the trial, the prosecution called the ballistics analyst

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Speaker 2: from George's crime lab to the witness stand. McBurney questioned

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Speaker 2: the analyst he held up the nine milimeters pistol and

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Speaker 2: the Ruger Many fourteen semi automatic rifle found close to

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Speaker 2: where a Mam Jamial was captured. The rifle was a

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Speaker 2: unique and powerful gun. Even though it was semi automatic,

357
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Speaker 2: it could still be fired rapidly, and it had a

358
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Speaker 2: retractable stock so it could be compact fired from the

359
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 2: hip or extended and fired like a rifle typically is

360
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Speaker 2: from the shoulder. The analyst said that a bullet from

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Speaker 2: the rifle must have hit Kinchin with the caveat that

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Speaker 2: if there was another ruger Many fourteen at the scene,

363
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Speaker 2: she couldn't tell the difference between the two, and the

364
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Speaker 2: analyst testified that a bullet from the pistol the same

365
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: one Bernie held up in the courtroom, that it hit

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Speaker 2: Deputy Kenchin.

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Speaker 5: Period.

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Speaker 2: Here's the defense attorney Jack Martin.

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Speaker 4: The gun evidence was very problematic for us. It was

370
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Speaker 4: a difficult thing for us to overcome. But you know,

371
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Speaker 4: we had some explanations for it, but it was more difficult,

372
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Speaker 4: including why would he take it all the way to Alabama.

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Speaker 2: Ama Jimil's defense team had argued before the trial that

374
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Speaker 2: the ballistics evidence shouldn't be included at all, but the

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Speaker 2: judge decided to allow it. Now, all they could do

376
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: was cross examine the analysts. It got really technical about

377
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: gas projection and surface markings, that type of stuff. But

378
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Speaker 2: the thing is, there are serious questions about the veracity

379
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Speaker 2: of the kinds of ballistics evidence that was presented.

380
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Speaker 4: To say that this gun is the gud who fired

381
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Speaker 4: this book is very, very difficult. There were questions about

382
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 4: whether this was a valid conclusion from a scientific point

383
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Speaker 4: of view.

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Speaker 2: Ballistics just happens to be something I know a little

385
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Speaker 2: bit about. When I was an investigative reporter at Pro Publica,

386
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Speaker 2: I worked on a team looking into the validity of

387
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: the so called forensic sciences. The project eventually ran under

388
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Speaker 2: the headline The Real CSI, which was meant to be

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Speaker 2: a corrective to how CSI and other crime dramas hold

390
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Speaker 2: out ballistics analysis and other methods as infallible truth. The

391
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Speaker 2: work was inspired by a huge report put out by

392
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Speaker 2: the National Academy of Sciences on ballistics analysis. The Academy concluded, quote,

393
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Speaker 2: the decision of the tool mark examiner remains a subjective

394
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: decision based on unarticulated standards and no statistical foundation. The

395
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 2: report went on to say that it has never been

396
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Speaker 2: conclusively proven that a particular gun leaves unique markings on

397
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: the bullets at fires. But according to Jack Martin, it

398
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: was always going to be tough to convince the jury

399
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 2: that this evidence wasn't reliable. Do you think from your

400
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 2: experiences as a lawyer, do juries tend to believe ballistics evidence?

401
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they shouldn't.

402
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 2: This kind of ballistics evidence matching a bullet or a

403
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: shell casing to a particular gun. It's still widely admissible

404
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: in US courts. But after three weeks of testimony and

405
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: cross examinations and objections and squabbling over evidence, there was

406
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: almost time to turn the case over to the jury.

407
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: In my reporting on this story, I swung back and

408
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 2: forth between thinking maybe a Mama Jemil didn't shoot those

409
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: deputies and yes, he definitely did. One bit of information

410
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: would lead me one way, and then another would turn

411
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: me around in the uncertainty. And when I was thinking

412
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 2: I'd never get to the bottom of what happened, I

413
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: figured that maybe the story I was supposed to tell

414
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: was more about a Maam Jimil himself. Who was this

415
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: man who I encountered as a kid, who people believed

416
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: was even capable of shooting two cops. But then I

417
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: would get sucked back into an obsessive and maybe even

418
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: a foolish desire to figure out what actually happened that night.

419
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: We all know that the facts at any trial are

420
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 2: subject to dispute, but it's also the case that so

421
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: many facts are never even considered. Prosecutors and defense lawyers

422
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: construct narratives out of little slivers of life. As the

423
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 2: trial neared its climax, there were still unanswered questions on

424
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: both sides. That's a big part of why I got

425
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: sucked into this case. So much had been left off

426
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 2: the table. When I interviewed Watani Tahimba about his work

427
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: as an investigator and about a Ma'am Jamil's trial, it

428
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 2: was the first time in my reporting that I felt

429
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: close to hearing for myself some straight up truth about

430
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: that night, not close enough to actually uncover the information itself.

431
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: I just detected that something real was there. It was

432
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: a little jolt that said keep on digging. But Tani

433
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: and I were talking about how as an investigator he

434
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: works closely, almost intimately, with truth that goes unsaid.

435
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 5: I don't know who I was talking to about this recently,

436
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 5: but it was I think maybe it was my wife actually,

437
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 5: and she was saying, do you think that defendants tell

438
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 5: the truth to their lawyers? And it's the same kind

439
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 5: of thing. Do they tell the truth to their investigators?

440
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 2: My answer to her was not all the time, Like.

441
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 6: I don't know in fact, and I don't always ask them,

442
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 6: see I don't. I don't ever ask them did you

443
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 6: do this? I never asked that, you know, say that's

444
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 6: what the police say, that's what the state was saying,

445
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 6: we got some problems here. This is the area that

446
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 6: we definitely got some issues here, you know, so we

447
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 6: do it like that. But I've had can't say give

448
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 6: me a whole story, say what do you think about that?

449
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 4: Said?

450
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: What do I think about that?

451
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 4: Said?

452
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 6: What do you think about that? That kind of intue me,

453
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 6: it's your story. I'm not help you to do this.

454
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 6: You tell me your story. I'll show you where your

455
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 6: stuff is bad. You know, we tighten it up. But yeah,

456
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 6: so yeah, it's interesting in it. It's it's none of

457
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 6: them are there saying? You know?

458
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 5: It would have been that same kind of scenario with

459
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 5: the Mam Jamil. It wouldn't have been like, did you

460
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 5: do this?

461
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 6: Well, I mean we have a relationship. I could ask

462
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 6: me to, but I wouldn't do that.

463
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil had pleaded not guilty. He said he was innocent,

464
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: but he didn't have an alibi. So if he didn't

465
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 2: shoot the deputies, then who did? It would have had

466
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: to be someone else, someone who with Tani would have

467
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to as an investigator. Would you have

468
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: been previous conversations with the Mam Jamil the client himself,

469
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: to kind of give you guidance about where you should

470
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: go or not.

471
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 6: Go as an investigator? You know, yeah, we have privileged

472
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 6: conversations with our client as well as with the other attorneys.

473
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: And did he point you in one way or the other.

474
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 6: We have privileged conversations.

475
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 3: I can't say.

476
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: Right that right there, that's it there's something there. Who

477
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: knows Maybe wa Tani doesn't even know what it is.

478
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: There's some truth there, even if it's unset. The prosecution

479
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 2: left some big questions out there too. Robert McBurnie and

480
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: his team, they decided not to explain why they thought

481
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 2: a man Jimial shot the deputies. They had no obligation

482
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: to describe a motive.

483
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: Certainly, it was a topic of interest amongst those of

484
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: us on the prosecution team of why someone who at

485
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: that point in his life had become a community icon

486
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 3: and was revered or feared pick your term in the

487
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 3: West End, why not simply go with these deputies to

488
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: deal with a stolen car allegation and be done with it.

489
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: Mcburnie's theory was that a Mam Jamil had something in

490
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: the trunk of the Mercedes guns, maybe that he didn't

491
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: want English and kinsin to find when they pulled up

492
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: on him.

493
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 3: That's as good as it got. It was senseless regardless.

494
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: It really doesn't matter what was in the trunk to

495
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: shoot to kill two deputies who are simply doing their job.

496
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: And there was nothing in this case about you know,

497
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: these deputies were approaching him aggressively or he was defending

498
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: himself that that was never the defense, because of course

499
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: he didn't do it was the defense.

500
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: But those are all things that did not come up

501
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: at the trial. As the time approached for closing arguments

502
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: and the defense was finishing with their witnesses, a man

503
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: Jamil and his lawyers had to decide if he should testify.

504
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: Based on the Constitution the Fifth Amendment, it was his

505
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: right to refuse to take the stand, and if he

506
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: decided not to McBurney in the prosecution, they weren't allowed

507
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: to bring it up. Jack Martin worried that if a

508
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: Mam Jamial testified, the armed robbery conviction he caught in

509
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: New York in the seventies would come up and the

510
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: jury would hold it against him. So in the end,

511
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: a Mam Jamil didn't take the stand. McBurney gave his

512
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: closing argument. First, he ran through the case the prosecution

513
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: had laid out during testimony, and then McBurney said to

514
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: the jury, I want to leave you with a few

515
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: questions you should have for the defendant. He was using

516
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: a PowerPoint presentation and he put up a slide.

517
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: The label of the slide was questions for the Defendant

518
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: and It was basically, how can you explain all these things?

519
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: And then it rattled off some questions, how do you

520
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: explain the shellcasing on the Mercedes? How do you explain

521
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 3: the bullet taken out a Deputy Kinchin that matches this gun.

522
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: It basically thinks that you cannot explain.

523
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: I was amazed and it just troubled me, and it

524
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 4: sort of the thought crossed my mind, said they must

525
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 4: be fairly desperate to be making that type of argument.

526
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 2: Jack Martin objected. He asked for a mistrial because of

527
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Mamjamial's Fifth Amendment rights were violated. The judge said no,

528
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: and McBurney changed the title of that slide. Then the

529
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: judge explained to the jury that a Mam Jamial had

530
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 2: no obligation to testify, that the jury shouldn't draw any

531
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: conclusion from a man Jamial's choice not to take the stand.

532
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 2: McBurney finished the first part of his argument, and then

533
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: it was the defense's turn. They said that English's idea

534
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: of a Mammed Meal didn't hold up, that a Mam

535
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: Jamil didn't have gray eyes and he wasn't shot like

536
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: English said he was. And the defense pointed out the

537
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: link between the bullets, the guns, and a man demial.

538
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: It wasn't as convincing as it might seem. Then McBurney

539
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 2: had a chance to deliver a final closing speech. He

540
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: rebutted the defense arguments point by point, and he approached

541
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: the climax of his argument. You watched what happened in

542
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: this courtroom. Who wouldn't stand up for you? Don't stand

543
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: for him. The defendant is guilty of the murder of

544
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: Deputy Ricky Kinchin. McBurney said, he's guilty of each and

545
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: every count in the indictment, and you need to hold

546
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 2: him accountable. Don't stand for him. Remember that a Ma'am Jamil,

547
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: unlike many others in the courtroom, hadn't risen. When the

548
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: judge and jury entered for religious reasons, Martin objected to

549
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: mcburney's language and again asked for a mistrial. The judge

550
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: denied the request, but she did tell the jury that

551
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: a Maam Jamial's beliefs shouldn't be held against him. The

552
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: jury was sent away to deliberate. These days, McBurney is

553
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: one of the most well known judges in Georgia. He

554
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: oversaw a special grand jury's investigation and to alleged election

555
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: interference by former President Donald Trump. I asked McBurnie whether

556
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: he went too far in his closing argument. A district

557
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: court judge went as far as saying that it was

558
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: a I think serious and repeated constitutional violation the argument

559
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: that you made. And I don't think that you've had

560
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: the opportunity to kind of state publicly what you were

561
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: thinking and your thoughts about how it went down, But

562
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: we would love to hear that.

563
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 3: Sure, So my friends like to bring this one up

564
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 3: all the time. I made a mistake. It was an honest,

565
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: good faith mistake, and I own it, and I have

566
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 3: been owning it for many years now. But it was

567
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: a mistake as opposed to an attempt to get the

568
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 3: jury to think about Wait a minute, Alameine didn't testify.

569
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 3: They knew that that would have been the most fascinating

570
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 3: part of the trial is to have this very charismatic, silent,

571
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: brooding person testify, and he didn't. But I didn't talk

572
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 3: about that in my closing I shouldn't have talked about it.

573
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: And that was a very long answer, but it's just

574
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 3: to emphasize how I think in the grand scheme of things,

575
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: minor my mistake was.

576
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: The defense team and the district court judge. I mentioned

577
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 2: they didn't consider the mistake to be so minor. I

578
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: also asked mc bernie about his reference to a man

579
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 2: Jamil not standing during the trial. That wasn't a mistake,

580
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: he said, not at all.

581
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 3: I don't owe him respect. I treated him as I

582
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 3: ought to, and he got a phenomenal defense team, great judge,

583
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: and a very very fair trial. The fact that I

584
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 3: didn't hold his hand and tell him I thought he

585
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 3: was a swell guy. I don't lose sleep over that one.

586
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: After less than a day of deliberation, the jury found

587
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: a man Jamil guilty on all accounts. But the trial,

588
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: it wasn't over yet. A man Jamil and his defense team,

589
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 2: they still had to fight to keep him alive.

590
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 7: And now you have to come in front of that

591
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 7: same jury and say, Okay, let's assume you got it right.

592
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 7: Let's assume you made the correct decision. I have a

593
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 7: second argument for you. He should live.

594
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: That on the next episode of Radical. Radical is a

595
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: production of Camside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart Podcasts. Radical

596
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: was reported and written by Johnnykauffman and me Mosey's Secret

597
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: Johnnykaufman is our senior producer. Sheba Joseph is our associate producer.

598
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: Editing by Eric Benson, Johnny Kaufman, Emily Martinez and Matt Cher.

599
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: Fact checking by Sophie Hurwitz, Kayln Lynch and Layla Dos.

600
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: Original music by Kyle Murdoch and by Ray Murray of

601
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: Organized Noise. Sound design and mixing by Kevin Seaman. Recording

602
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 2: by Ewan led trom Ewen and Sheba Joseph. Campside Media's

603
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: operations team is Doug Slaywan, Ashley Warren, Elijah Papes, Destiny Dingle,

604
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: and Sabina Mera. The executive producers at Campside Media are

605
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: Josh Dean Vanessa, Gregoriatis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Cher. For

606
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 2: Tenderfoot TV, executive producers are Donald Albright and Paine Lindsay.

607
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: The executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Matt Frederick and

608
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: Alex Williams, with additional support from Trevor Young,