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Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.

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Speaker 1: Chris Harrison coming to you from the home office here

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas, and I am so excited about today's

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Speaker 1: episode because it's a subject that was, well, it was

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Speaker 1: entrenched in my life for what nineteen or twenty years.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about reality show villains. I have some of

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Speaker 1: the most legendary reality show villains joining me on the

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Speaker 1: show today. The reason I wanted to dive into this

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Speaker 1: is because I was always so fascinated with villains, the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote villains that came on The Bachelor in Baccheorette

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Speaker 1: that ended up becoming villains. Why and who were they

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Speaker 1: really villains? Did they just rub people the wrong way?

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Speaker 1: Were they just kind of misconceived by the fans? How

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Speaker 1: did they see themselves? Was it the producers, was it editing?

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Speaker 1: Or really? Was it just their personality that drove this.

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Speaker 1: It's something in a subject matter that I have thought

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Speaker 1: about intimately for so long, and so I thought, let's

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Speaker 1: do an entire show just with the greatest villains of

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Speaker 1: all time. And we're going to talk to Richard Hatch

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Speaker 1: from Survivor, one of the biggest Villains from Bacher Bacherette World,

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Speaker 1: Courtney Robertson from Ben Flanneck Season How She Stirred Up

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Speaker 1: the Waters, and Kelly Dodd from the Real Housewives of

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Speaker 1: Orange County. That's who's joining me on the show today. So,

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Speaker 1: as I said, we have, I mean the greatest hits

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Speaker 1: of villains, but I want to start with a guy

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Speaker 1: who I was a huge fan of because I was

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Speaker 1: a huge Survivor fan, Richard Hatch back in two thousand

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Speaker 1: he became Survivor's first winner in the debut season. It

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Speaker 1: was the way he played the game that really caught

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Speaker 1: my attention because at the end of the day he won,

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Speaker 1: He outplayed everybody and survived and became that first Survivor champion.

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Speaker 1: So that is where we will start this villain episode.

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Speaker 1: Joining me now really the og villain in all of

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Speaker 1: reality TV. I mean, maybe you can go back to

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Speaker 1: the MTV days, but Richard Hatch, you are synonymous with

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Speaker 1: being a villain on reality TV. And I by the way,

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Speaker 1: I do not mean that in a bad way at all,

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Speaker 1: because the other thing I will say is I'm a fan.

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Speaker 1: I was a fan of Survivor when it came out

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and when you were doing it and

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Speaker 1: you won, followed you and all the other reality shows.

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Speaker 1: So huge fan of how you handled yourself.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thanks very much, Chris. I liked everything

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Speaker 2: except the O in the og.

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Speaker 1: Hey. Well, yeah, I know. I'm right there with you, Pal,

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Speaker 1: I'm right there with you.

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Speaker 3: Is it?

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it stunning to think back? That was

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Speaker 1: two thousand, man, that was twenty three years ago?

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Speaker 2: Twenty three years ago?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: You know. I remember I was had not started the

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Speaker 1: Battery yet, but I had gotten the job, and I

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Speaker 1: was doing a charity thing and you may have been

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Speaker 1: there because Jeff Probst was there. We did a celebrity

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Speaker 1: dodgeball event. Oh they had a Survivor team and I

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Speaker 1: remember going up to Probes and asking, so, I'm doing

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Speaker 1: this reality show? What is this? What is this genre?

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Speaker 1: And He's like, all I can say is, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to figure it out. Like you know, Survivor is

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Speaker 1: a different animal. You're gonna have to kind of figure

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Speaker 1: out your own kind of path. And it was actually

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Speaker 1: great advice.

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Speaker 2: Well, it took him a lot longer to figure it

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Speaker 2: out than he admits. Now let me tell you.

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Speaker 1: Well, we all like to look back and revisions. History

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Speaker 1: is wonderful, isn't it. But you became known that first

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Speaker 1: season as this, you know, kind of brilliant game player

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Speaker 1: and schemer. But also I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: you were also known as a villain. Did you feel that?

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Speaker 1: And when did you feel it?

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Speaker 2: I could answer really light and silly, but I'll just

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Speaker 2: briefly answer a little bit more seriously. So I played,

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Speaker 2: and I thought I played really, really well. I was

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Speaker 2: so proud of myself and imagined viewers watching and thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to go back to.

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Speaker 1: Ye hero's welcome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, how did he do that? How do you

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Speaker 2: figure it? Et cetera. And although I did, and there

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Speaker 2: are throngs of fans who still communicate with me now, thankfully,

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Speaker 2: it really altered my life in a way that I

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Speaker 2: hadn't been prepared for. So that whole villain thing isn't

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Speaker 2: as simple and superficial as one might think. A big

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Speaker 2: part of the villain label for me had to do

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Speaker 2: with being naked, gay, and atheists. You know, those things

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Speaker 2: combined really made for a very serious villainous thing that

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Speaker 2: allowed prosecutors and others to really pounce in a way

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Speaker 2: that they felt able to do. Yeah, terrible, But I

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Speaker 2: love the game and the flip side of that. If

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Speaker 2: I set aside real life and the actual homophobia that

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Speaker 2: was behind, it has been fascinating and fun and amazing.

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Speaker 2: And people now get it. Even during COVID, you know,

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Speaker 2: new fans are like, wow, they told me you were

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Speaker 2: a villain. Oh my god, how did you do that?

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Speaker 2: It's pretty exciting.

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Speaker 1: Your situation is so different because it was a true game.

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Speaker 1: You played it masterfully and you won, and people didn't

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Speaker 1: understand that. And I don't know if that exacerbated it,

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Speaker 1: like damn this guy even more, or because it may

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Speaker 1: have been the rules Outlast outplay.

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Speaker 2: People did not understand the rules. Even the players didn't

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Speaker 2: understand the rules, most of them. But when we got out.

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Speaker 2: Rosie O'Donnell, for example, had all of us on her show.

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Speaker 2: She gave she loved the show. She was a crazy fan,

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Speaker 2: hated me because of the villain thing she perceived, didn't

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Speaker 2: understand the rules. She gave everyone a car on air

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Speaker 2: and gave me a box of rice. No loved it.

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Speaker 2: She was looking to be, you know, to shame me,

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Speaker 2: and but but you know, that's that's the type of

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Speaker 2: reaction I got from many, many, many folks.

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Speaker 1: How crazy, How hard was that for you? You know,

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Speaker 1: you came back into the real world and you were

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Speaker 1: expecting one thing, you got another, and you had to

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Speaker 1: deal with that. That was part of your life and

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Speaker 1: you were it was a huge part of your life

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Speaker 1: because I mean, I remember the press you got and

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Speaker 1: this is before social media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but it extended into social media. But but

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Speaker 2: but sure, yeah, so it was challenging, is what I'll say. Listen,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to do the woe as me thing.

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Speaker 2: It's been really, really rough, but I wouldn't change anything.

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Speaker 2: I learned a lot, and it was interesting to me

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Speaker 2: to recognize what folks who really face prejudices, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: go through. You know, even growing up gay, I had

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Speaker 2: to kind of figure out who I was early on,

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Speaker 2: But I still didn't face the kind of difficulties that

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Speaker 2: I know so many people do. And now now I've

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Speaker 2: faced them and understand how how challenging it is.

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Speaker 1: You went you went on to use this very well.

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Speaker 1: Just you did another didn't you do another season Survivor again?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Sure?

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Speaker 1: And then there was The Apprentice. I think you did

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Speaker 1: the Biggest Loser, so I mean you were able to

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Speaker 1: kind of start milking this as producers and people were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this guy is great TV.

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Speaker 2: Yeah I did. I did quite a few shows thereafter,

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Speaker 2: but it was it wasn't my goal. You know, so

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Speaker 2: many people on the show are on there to get famous,

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Speaker 2: to get known. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the fun.

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed doing and interacting. But I'm a kind of

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Speaker 2: a serious fella. I'm trying to do a podcast now

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Speaker 2: called Reality Matters, meaning reality What's True Matters, And I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm really discouraged by the way in which we seem

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Speaker 2: to be shifting away from that.

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Speaker 1: Well what was what was true for you? You know,

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Speaker 1: because again, Survivor's very different because it is a game,

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Speaker 1: and therefore, just for people that are listening, that means

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Speaker 1: there's standards and practices. That means if there's money on

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Speaker 1: the line, there are lawyers, and there's certain things producers

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Speaker 1: can and can't do and say because there's money on

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Speaker 1: the line. But do you feel like you were portrayed

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Speaker 1: as Richard Hatch? Do you know, do you feel like

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Speaker 1: the editing was fair to you?

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Speaker 2: Wow? Chris, I don't know if you're you know, you

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Speaker 2: have behind the scenes knowledge or you're just shooting in

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Speaker 2: the wind. This isn't something most many folks know about.

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Speaker 2: But you know, you say there are standards and practices.

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Speaker 2: This was the first reality show this on a major network. Yes, MTV,

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Speaker 2: like you said before that with Real World, but this

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Speaker 2: was the first. So they did not even have a

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Speaker 2: representative of standards and practices on set. Now and I

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Speaker 2: caught them cheating. They were feeding Kelly, another participant. She

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Speaker 2: was she won five challenges in a row. At the end,

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Speaker 2: I shut down production. I mean, this really real life

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Speaker 2: became a very very difficult situation. You know, while we

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Speaker 2: were filming, we were hell yeah, crazy, no standards and

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Speaker 2: practices know anything. It was the wild West.

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Speaker 1: That is well, because I mean I've hosted you know,

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Speaker 1: who Wants to Be a Millionaire? I hosted the game

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Speaker 1: show for quite some time. And even when we did

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Speaker 1: Bachelor there before we did Paradise, we did this other

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Speaker 1: show where there was money on the line. There was

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Speaker 1: kind of this prisoner's dilemma again, standards and practices. It

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Speaker 1: was like, this is a game show and there's certain

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Speaker 1: things you have to stay between you know, these navigational

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Speaker 1: beacons to keep it fair. I have never heard that

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Speaker 1: story that you caught them cheating and shut down production.

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Speaker 1: That is shocking.

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Speaker 2: I really wish it were. They were there. But even

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Speaker 2: one of the executive producers held himself out after this,

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Speaker 2: as I'm the representative of standards and practices.

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Speaker 1: He said, I'm like, oh God, then how come you're

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Speaker 1: giving Kelly a hamburger?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, you know, they could claim they He himself

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Speaker 2: may not have known. I don't know, but there were

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Speaker 2: a number well whatever, but watched it. I saw it.

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Speaker 2: I stopped it.

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Speaker 1: Good for you, by the way, because most people would

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Speaker 1: not have the wherewithal and the confidence to do that.

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Speaker 2: Thirty nine days, I lost forty two pounds watching him

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Speaker 2: give her the food, the chocolate bar, then finding her

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Speaker 2: peanut butter and everything. I was losing my mind.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 1: By the way, the Survivor diet's still the all time greatest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was crazy.

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Speaker 1: So it worked, and obviously none of that comes out,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you're going back to the reunions and

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Speaker 1: all that. It was hush hush, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was hush hush, you know. In the in the

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Speaker 2: ten year reunion because so many things happened to me

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Speaker 2: as a result of being such a public figure before

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Speaker 2: fifty four million viewers. You know, Mark Burnett came up

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Speaker 2: and he said, listen, I'm so sorry this happened and

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Speaker 2: that happened, and let me know if there's anything I

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Speaker 2: can do to help, and it's it's it's fascinating to

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Speaker 2: me because people like him in those kinds of positions

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Speaker 2: of power now, with wealth beyond what most people could

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Speaker 2: imagine and power that goes with that, you know, hasn't

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Speaker 2: been there to support the participants afterwards. And that's something

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Speaker 2: reality participants ought to know. You know. I've got to

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Speaker 2: give Mark credit because he talked to me in the

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Speaker 2: early stages when he was selecting me about putting a

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Speaker 2: gay person on there and that he wanted a certain representation.

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Speaker 2: But the follow through just wasn't there. He could have

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Speaker 2: should have known the consequence and what real world I

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Speaker 2: might have faced.

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Speaker 1: The ramifications of all this. Yeah. With that said, what

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Speaker 1: would your advice be to those that are still you know,

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Speaker 1: getting in the game, and whether it's survivor whether it's

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Speaker 1: you know, a million other shows that exist now.

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Speaker 2: Well, one thing is I've always said to folks, you know,

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Speaker 2: don't go on these shows to figure out who you are.

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Speaker 2: Do that ahead of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right.

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Speaker 4: You don't have.

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Speaker 2: Time while you're in there to figure out who you are,

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Speaker 2: and you're not going to be liked by a certain

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Speaker 2: segment of society, so get good with that. I was

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Speaker 2: pretty comfortable with that in my mind until I realized

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Speaker 2: that those people in power might be the ones who

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Speaker 2: don't like you, and they can impact your life. They

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Speaker 2: can devastate it. So you do have to think about

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Speaker 2: the consequence. Oh you should if.

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Speaker 1: Don't go in there thinking that you are going to

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Speaker 1: be the Captain America that everybody just falls in love

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Speaker 1: with and the heront nine percent of the time that's

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Speaker 1: not going to be you.

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Speaker 2: Correct. You'll have a good amount of people who will

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Speaker 2: back you, You'll have followers who understand you, but you

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Speaker 2: could have far more people who don't. And particularly in

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Speaker 2: social media and particularly with younger folks, it can really

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Speaker 2: affect your psyche. It can get to you if you

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Speaker 2: haven't figured out who you are yet. So it's challenging.

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Speaker 1: Would you do it all again?

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Speaker 2: I would go again because I love the game, and

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Speaker 2: even when I went the first time at thirty eight,

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Speaker 2: I knew who I was. I know who I am.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm comfortable with that. I've figured that out,

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Speaker 2: so I would do it well, Richard.

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Speaker 1: I tell you what, I have always been a fan

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Speaker 1: from day one a Survivor because I love the show.

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Speaker 1: Was I love it when it was Eco Challenge, when

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Speaker 1: Burnett was doing that, and then when it became Survivor,

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Speaker 1: I was so into it. And when you turn the

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Speaker 1: game on its head the way you did, I was

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Speaker 1: in the camp of Holy Cow. This guy is good,

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Speaker 1: Like damn, he's good.

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Speaker 2: It's really kind of you.

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Speaker 1: So I've always appreciated all the iterations, all the shows

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Speaker 1: you've done, and so I'm glad we had a chance

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Speaker 1: to talk today.

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Speaker 2: Why didn't I get pulled onto Bachelor Paradise to tempt

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Speaker 2: the guys?

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Speaker 1: That would have been a good twist. He's got the

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Speaker 1: villain thing going, man, Chris Richard Hatch, appreciate it, buddy,

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Speaker 1: have a good one. My thanks to Richard Hatch after

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Speaker 1: talking to him, an even bigger fan to think about. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's very interesting to shed light on, you know, being

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Speaker 1: a gay man and atheist and all those things that

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Speaker 1: he carried into that season. Thank goodness, he was confident,

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Speaker 1: knew who he was and was able to withstand the

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Speaker 1: pressure that he got from outside the show. But was

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Speaker 1: it just me or did anybody fall out of their

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Speaker 1: chair like I did when he said he shut down

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Speaker 1: production on Survivor because he caught the producers cheating. He

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Speaker 1: caught the producers of Survivor feeding Kelly on season one

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Speaker 1: and he shut it down until they fixed it. That

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Speaker 1: is jaw dropping. I have never heard that story, and

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Speaker 1: that just blew me away. So I think, to my

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Speaker 1: thanks to Richard Hatch for coming on the show, but

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Speaker 1: for that bombshell of a story about Survivor that I

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Speaker 1: didn't know about. I hope you didn't either. Up next

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Speaker 1: is a very dear friend of mine. So Cordy Robertson

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Speaker 1: was a contestant on the sixteenth season of The Bachelor.

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Speaker 1: That was been flantic season if you remember. The winemaker

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Speaker 1: from San Francisco. Courtney quickly became one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: villains in the history of our franchise. She was unapologetically

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Speaker 1: after Ben Flannick, who she really did love and fell

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Speaker 1: in love with, but again, she really rubbed people the

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Speaker 1: wrong way. And became one of the biggest villains in

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Speaker 1: our franchise history. Joining me now, very dear friend, Courtney Robertson.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say old friend, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to say you're old at all because I am

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Speaker 1: much older. So just I'm going to say, very good friend,

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Speaker 1: Courtney Robertson. How you doing.

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Speaker 6: Hey, I'm doing super duper. Actually, it's good to see you.

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Speaker 3: I was going to call you my old friend.

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Speaker 1: Definitely, you can definitely call me your old friend because

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Speaker 1: I have you by many, many years. Where are you

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Speaker 1: now because you're not in Los Angeles?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so I was in LA for about fourteen years

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Speaker 6: and I moved back to Arizona, my hometown, about.

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Speaker 3: Six years ago.

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Speaker 1: Because you're married to kids now, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Lots happened.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I've got two kids. Today was actually the

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Speaker 6: This week is the first week. They both went to preschool.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like free, that a wonderful thing. So they wait,

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Speaker 1: they're both headed your pre school. So were talking four

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Speaker 1: or five years old.

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Speaker 6: We got three and eighteen months, and I have a boy.

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Speaker 6: My boys three turning three, and my daughter's eighteen months

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Speaker 6: Poloma and she is a mini me and she he is.

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Speaker 1: Real sassy, She's got an attitude.

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Speaker 3: She's got an attitude. Yeah, oh yeah, she.

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Speaker 1: Will grow up to be an amazing villain on reality TV.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I know, maybe someday. I talked to Ashley. I'm like, man,

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Speaker 6: we gotta get our babies together. Her little baby is

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Speaker 6: so cute.

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Speaker 1: Ashley Dawson. Yeah, Ashley and Conetti, Ashley and Jared. We

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Speaker 1: just saw them here in Austin. Ashley came in town

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Speaker 1: with Ben Higgins and had dinner and she showed me

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Speaker 1: videos of her and Dawson. I mean, the cutest, cutest kid.

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Speaker 1: Poloma would do well to hook up with Dawson.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like, let's have a playdate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe some day arranged. Weird Bachelor kids getting together,

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Speaker 1: that's a whole other show. But we have enough kids now,

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Speaker 1: isn't that weird? Before we get into everything we want

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Speaker 1: to talk about, it is amazing to me and wonderful

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Speaker 1: when I see you, Ashley, Jade and Tanner, Tristan, right,

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Speaker 1: you name it. We have so many babies, and they're

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Speaker 1: not all Bachelor babies that were made from the show

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Speaker 1: and relationships from the show, but just the same watching

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Speaker 1: everybody grow up and have babies and kind of complete

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Speaker 1: the full circle of their lives is really wonderful.

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Speaker 3: It's got to be a trip for you. I mean

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Speaker 3: we met gosh over ten years ago, Yeah it was.

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Speaker 3: It feels good to me to be like.

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Speaker 6: So far moved, like because it took me a lot

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Speaker 6: of time to get my life kind of just to

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Speaker 6: feeling normal.

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Speaker 3: Like what feels normal to me?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it is wild.

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Speaker 6: And you were there for like the journey, like and

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Speaker 6: you've watched it all unfold. And I met your kids

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Speaker 6: when they were little, and then I see them going

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Speaker 6: off to college and I'm like.

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Speaker 3: What, it's wild, And you're right, are you an empty

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Speaker 3: nester now?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I mean while they boomerang, they do come home

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Speaker 1: for summer break, which is really weird because now instead

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Speaker 1: of just kids, I have these adults living with me.

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Speaker 1: They really don't want to be here, Lauren and I

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Speaker 1: really don't want to know. We do love it when

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Speaker 1: they're here. It's that good kind of noise. And I

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Speaker 1: realize they this is my son's last summer at home.

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Speaker 1: He's about to graduate, he's going into senior year. And

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Speaker 1: you know, with my daughter, I get like two or

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Speaker 1: three more summers and that's it. So I'm grasping onto

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Speaker 1: it as hard as I can and favor You're right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you ten years ago and you were able

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Speaker 1: to remove yourself. I kind of had this dazed and

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Speaker 1: confused version of the show where people would step off

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Speaker 1: the merry go round, but I stayed and I would

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Speaker 1: get to know the next group, and so I never

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Speaker 1: really left. And so I'm kind of where you were

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Speaker 1: about two years removed now and it feels good and

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Speaker 1: I feel like, finally I have a little distance between

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Speaker 1: me and the show and I can kind of let

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Speaker 1: my guard down a little bit.

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Speaker 6: It takes time, it's you know, and then it sometimes

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Speaker 6: it flares back up.

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Speaker 3: You know, started a podcast.

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Speaker 6: And you dive back in, and I did to use

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Speaker 6: the word triggered, but you know, you kind of can

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Speaker 6: tap back into that time, and I'm sure you have

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Speaker 6: fond memories.

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Speaker 3: I mean, how long did you host the show.

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Speaker 1: I was nineteen years, a little over nineteen years. We

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Speaker 1: were about to celebrate the twentieth anniversary when I left,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean it's the wonderful times there was amazing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even look back at your season with Ben

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Speaker 1: Flam we traveled the world.

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Speaker 3: We were, you know, we were in Zermatt.

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Speaker 1: Zermatt, Switzerland, underneath the Matterhorn. I skied up Switzerland and

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Speaker 1: down into Italy and had lunch. And we were in Belize,

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Speaker 1: where I brought my kids. We were fishing and diving

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Speaker 1: with sharks. So it was an unbelievable season. We're was

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Speaker 1: that season? Did we go to viek Uh No? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Was it Viekis?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: In Puerto Rico? Oh, you know what happened in Porto right.

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Speaker 1: Now, that's where the infamous skinny dip took place?

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Speaker 3: Op see poop see.

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Speaker 1: What do you remember about the infamous skinny dipping incident

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Speaker 1: with Ben Flannik?

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Speaker 6: So I remember being at the end of the was

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Speaker 6: it the Puerto Rico baseball date, and it was like

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Speaker 6: the cocktail party, like the losing team went home boohoo.

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Speaker 6: And then we got to like the night portion of

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Speaker 6: the cocktail party, and we were sitting in like a

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Speaker 6: little guzzy bow talking and the girls were over here,

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Speaker 6: and I was like, gosh, I would love to go

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Speaker 6: skanping right now, and He's like, I'll do it, let's go,

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Speaker 6: And I was like, no, Like these girls are going

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Speaker 6: to kill me and anyway, I was like, well, maybe

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Speaker 6: another time, and he's like, well, I think my date's

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Speaker 6: going to end early tomorrow, wink wink. If you want

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Speaker 6: to you know, if you want to do it then

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Speaker 6: So I was like, I think people didn't see that obviously,

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Speaker 6: So I thought this was like a plan. And then

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Speaker 6: so like I'm getting ready, I'm in my robe and

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Speaker 6: like they're like okay, like it's time to go. And

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Speaker 6: then I showed up to his door like I'm ready,

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Speaker 6: I have like a wine glass, I'm in my robe,

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Speaker 6: and he looks at me kind of like shocked, like

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Speaker 6: I don't know, like if he was expecting it, if you.

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Speaker 3: Thought it was a joke.

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Speaker 6: So then we did it and in the time, and

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Speaker 6: I know people say this it's so cliche, like you

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Speaker 6: kind of do forget you're filming a television show, and

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Speaker 6: I just I knew I would get extra time with

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Speaker 6: him and that there wouldn't be audio. Water and mics don't.

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Speaker 1: Mix right exactly.

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Speaker 3: I did have a little bit of an ulterior motive.

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Speaker 1: And what the producers are you or ben me?

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Speaker 4: I did?

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Speaker 6: I wanted to like talk to him off camera, and

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Speaker 6: that was the close but it was on.

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Speaker 1: Camera and that was really the closer though. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, say what you will about that moment. That's

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Speaker 1: what sealed the deal. No pun intended it.

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Speaker 3: Kind of did. It was kind of did.

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Speaker 6: But he told me out there like you know, you're

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00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 6: the one, and now I kind of have to go

438
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 6: through the motions and and you I remember this was

439
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 6: like pretty early on. It really was I and I

440
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 6: was like considering I was always threatening to me, and

441
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 6: like I just needed some reassurance.

442
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 3: So I was like, Okay, I guess we're going to

443
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 3: do this.

444
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: I found you very interesting and I am having a

445
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: few other quote unquote villains, and I use air quotes

446
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 1: from reality shows. You are the only bachelor bachelorette person

447
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: because I specifically remember your situation so well and thought

448
00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: about it so much. Of why you again, and to

449
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 1: use the word that is overused today, triggered the other

450
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: women so much right in your mind before the skinny

451
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: dipping incident, because you were not loved in the house

452
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: before then, What was it like? Why now that you've

453
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: had plenty of time to think back, what was it

454
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: that set them off?

455
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 3: I think it was a trifecta.

456
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 6: Really, I think the show airing and then seeing what

457
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 6: I was saying in my interviews, I got too comfortable

458
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 6: with producers, and towards the end of the show, I realized,

459
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 6: like I don't have to answer that or I don't

460
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 6: have to say that again. So but it was too late,

461
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 6: like the writing was already on the wall for me,

462
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 6: but for me like, I mean, there's two things that.

463
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 3: I want to say.

464
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 6: There's so much flooding into me, like I say, I

465
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 6: have to kind of like tap back into it. But

466
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 6: like night one, I remember talking to kcy B, the

467
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 6: sweetest girl right, and I was like.

468
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 3: This is obviously an au natural situation. I'm like, oh,

469
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 3: so what do you do for work?

470
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 6: And I was like trying to connect with her and

471
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 6: she's like, I'm not going to tell you that, like

472
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 6: and it just like I had my interactions that didn't

473
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 6: go well, but they didn't show that right, and so

474
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 6: I just got very like overwhelmed. I was constantly in

475
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 6: interviews they were like, oh, she's gold, let's.

476
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: Bring her in.

477
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 6: So I was kind of not around as much and

478
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 6: I think the girls took it kind of personally. And

479
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 6: then I had Casey, Shemer my best friend who went

480
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 6: on to Data Law and on my podcast recently, and

481
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 6: it was kind of nice refreshing to hear her perspective

482
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 6: because she was like best friends with everyone in the house,

483
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 6: and she's like, you know, she was telling me, like,

484
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 6: they're all talking badly about you. Producers were telling me Courtney,

485
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 6: people are saying bad things about you, like you kind

486
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 6: of need to start doing it or you're gonna look bad.

487
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 6: So there was just so much and I was also

488
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 6: falling for him.

489
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 3: Truly.

490
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 6: My only reason I did the show is because I

491
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 6: saw him on Ashley season and I was like wine Maker.

492
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 3: You know, I dated.

493
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 6: Celebrities, and I really thought, like, this guy seems like

494
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 6: a catchy, so normal.

495
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 3: So I don't know if I answered your question.

496
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: Tell me if this is a wild theory. This is

497
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: one theory that I've had, and I want to ask

498
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: your opinion because you were a very successful model coming

499
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: into the show. Extremely gorgeous you are, and I remember

500
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: night one you are very striking, so you make an entrance.

501
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: Do you think that along with the attitude. I think

502
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: models have having gotten to know some and I even

503
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: dated this kind of killer be killed attitude when you're

504
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 1: a model, when you walk in and there's twenty fifty

505
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 1: however many other beautiful women, and everybody's shooting daggers, and

506
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: it's like, before you come at me, I'm going to

507
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: come at you. Do you feel like you maybe brought

508
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: that attitude to the show, like this is a competition,

509
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: just like I'm on the runway and I'm going to win.

510
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 3: Yes, one hundred percent. That was one percent. Yeah I did.

511
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: My dad always says that.

512
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 6: He said, Courtney, you know, you had a leg up

513
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 6: on everybody. I had walked into casting rooms where girls

514
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 6: are sizing up. You walk into a callback for commercial

515
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 6: and let me tell you, fifty girls are sitting there

516
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 6: and they look like you, So you kind of this.

517
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 6: I had confidence, and I know Ben has said that

518
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 6: about me and that that really attracted him to me.

519
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 3: And then slowly throughout the season.

520
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 6: It kind of started like we're the volume went down

521
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 6: on my confidence. But I think there is the ego

522
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 6: part of it as well, you know, like, yeah, I

523
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 6: want to win the first time. That's why I'm here,

524
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 6: Like I'm here to win, and you know, because I

525
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 6: really liked him so for the right reasons. But then

526
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 6: the girls just, you know, something I wanted to touch

527
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 6: on I won't say the name, but what didn't air?

528
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 6: And I wanted to talk to you about the Women

529
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 6: Tell All because I was one of the only ones

530
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 6: to go into.

531
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 3: That hot seat with you.

532
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 6: But you know, one of the girls kept calling me

533
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 6: AUTI stick on camera and they would never air that.

534
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 6: They didn't air it, and I thought that that was

535
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 6: how the narrative was going to play out, like so

536
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 6: you'd see this this beef and this confrontation and it

537
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 6: didn't air out that way like it aired like people

538
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 6: assumed she was just calling me like the B word.

539
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: So that was like, really, like what made me dislike

540
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 3: this girl?

541
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 6: And I just had to touch on that because I

542
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 6: couldn't talk about that at the Women Tell All.

543
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: So how much do you feel was you that we

544
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: got to see Courtney for the most part? And how

545
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: much do you feel the producers had a heavy hand

546
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: and how you were portrayed and who you became to

547
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: be on the show?

548
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I mean maybe fifty fifty.

549
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 6: You know, I think you know, I've talking to producers after,

550
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 6: like Mike Fleiss and I hung out through Amy Bean

551
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 6: and Malibu, and you know, he said, you're famous and

552
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 6: he was like you know, it was him or one

553
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 6: of the top female execs was like, we've never really

554
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 6: had like a true model on the show, and like

555
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 6: we kind of had to do it to you.

556
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 3: So I think that they always knew, well, like did you?

557
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what I said.

558
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 6: I was like, I remember Mike seeing my engagement ring,

559
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 6: like how do you like that ring?

560
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: I bought you?

561
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 6: And so yeah, I mean it's just a small world,

562
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 6: but yeah, I definitely think that they had a plan

563
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 6: for me. Yeah, and I kind of shot myself in

564
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 6: the foot by being so trusting in the interviews.

565
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: I mean it was also positive.

566
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 6: Like some people, it was like they love to hate me,

567
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 6: but it was so bigger than I thought it could

568
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 6: ever be, Like dealing with that kind of hate and

569
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 6: having really no support.

570
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: You know, I had dated celebrities, I'd.

571
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 6: Seen them deal with paparazzi, but then like to be

572
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 6: the one who has like paparazzi stalking me and being

573
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 6: I was on the cover of US Weekly for like

574
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 6: five weeks in a row, like.

575
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 3: Man Eater, like shameless seduction.

576
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then I hate to say it, but like

577
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 6: Whitney Houston died and I was I had a break

578
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 6: for about a week. Yeah, but it was just like

579
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 6: the beating that never stopped. And on top of it,

580
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 6: I was dealing with the relationship that wasn't so good.

581
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: I can completely sympathize with that now. I understand that

582
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: sorry sales.

583
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh I'm sure.

584
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it, but it's and.

585
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 6: I was curious to ask you that because when you

586
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 6: went through this, I don't think you saw I know

587
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 6: you were going through it. I didn't reach out to

588
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 6: you personally, but I did a story and I probably

589
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 6: went away in twenty four hours, but just saying like

590
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 6: I miss him, like I was sad because I'm a

591
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 6: fan of the show now I still watch because of everything,

592
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 6: and I just had to say that I was really

593
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 6: sad to see you go.

594
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 3: I appreciated that. Thank you, And I know you know that.

595
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 3: I don't want to be a broken record.

596
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: No, I apre no. I love hearing that, and I

597
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: appreciate that so much, you know, because.

598
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 3: You've been so delightful.

599
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 6: When we did Katie Kirk in New York, we did

600
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 6: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? I've seen you at

601
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 6: events and like you know, you've always just been such

602
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 6: a solid dude, and people always ask me, how is he?

603
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 3: I'm like, he's incredible.

604
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Yeah, we've always had a great relationship.

605
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: You and I have done We have done a ton

606
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: of things. I remember when I essentially took over the

607
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: Katie Kirk Show. We hosted it that day and had

608
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: everybody on.

609
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 3: I was so nervous it was but like, your.

610
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: Season was so interesting because you know, I doubt that

611
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,239
Speaker 1: anybody had the idea before you walked in, but I

612
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: think they saw the impression you made and thought, Okay,

613
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: now this is a narrative, this is a string we

614
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: can kind of weave throughout this entire season. And then

615
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: on top of that, Ben was crazy about you, and

616
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: that's really what sent this over the top. If you

617
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 1: weren't the one, then it wouldn't have been that big

618
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: of a deal and it would have petered out, and

619
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: what's what's the big deal? But the fact that you

620
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: won one essentially and you got engaged. I think that

621
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: infuriated people. Do you think that exacerbated the whole thing.

622
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: I think that he had Lindsay, who's sweetest pie?

623
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 6: And we are just like night and day different, And

624
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 6: I think it's like anybody like you're rooting for, like

625
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 6: when you're watching it's a television show, and I remember,

626
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 6: like I hate to say bring up the past, but

627
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 6: I remember, like your wife said something like about me,

628
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 6: like I really wish he would have picked you.

629
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: Hear those things and you're like, oh, like you know,

630
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 3: but he picked me. So but then I had to

631
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 3: deal with the relationship as well, and.

632
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: That was like yeah, and the relationship obviously didn't go

633
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: great and broke up, right, but I mean he's.

634
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: And we're fine now.

635
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 6: But like this whole process was like very much so

636
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 6: like pick me, pick me, and then afterwards it was

637
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 6: still like pick me, pick me, where I was like

638
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 6: I kind of got to the point where by the

639
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 6: after the final rows, I was like I'm done.

640
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: I have no fight left, you.

641
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: Know, And do you ever go back? Have you watched

642
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: that season back?

643
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 6: So I watched some of it when I wrote my book,

644
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 6: and I was shocked, I mean because I knew what

645
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 6: I was wearing when I said this, and then I

646
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 6: was shocked at like how many voiceovers were the things

647
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 6: that caught created the most problem. Yeah, and then I

648
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,239
Speaker 6: was like, oh, I realized why the girls like oh

649
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 6: they showed that or like I realized why the girls,

650
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 6: I think that just made it worse, kind of going

651
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 6: back to what we were talking about, Like they saw

652
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 6: what I was saying my interviews, but when I was

653
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 6: in the house I really didn't. I wasn't mean to

654
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 6: their faces.

655
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: I was just having fun.

656
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: Right it is? And you kind of remind me a

657
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: little bit of Michelle Money, who I'm very dear friends

658
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: with as well, and she was kind of the narrator

659
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: of her season, and she was so funny and so

660
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: quick witted. In the moment, it didn't it didn't come

661
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: off well, and she was a bit of a villain.

662
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: I remember standing up for her at the tell all

663
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: because I was like, guys, this is not who this

664
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: girl is. Trust me, like y'all, you will learn to

665
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: love her, and everyone did eventually your tell all, I

666
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: felt really guilty and horrible when you were in the

667
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: hot seat. I don't know if you know this. I

668
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: was so sick, deathly ill. I was so sick.

669
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: That was my question for you. I wondered if you

670
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 3: were really sick.

671
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to faint. So here's what

672
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: was going on. I was obviously you were the penultimate moment. Right,

673
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: you were the interview that I was looking forward to

674
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: that everybody was. You were the show, right, I mean,

675
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: say what you will, You were the show. It was

676
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: no longer about Ben, it was no longer it was

677
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: all about you. You were the only thing driving this.

678
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: If you had walked away, the show would have been

679
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,959
Speaker 1: off the air. That was it. You were driving the ratings.

680
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: And so this was the interview. And I had the

681
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: flu I had neat. I was so sick, and all

682
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I got dizzy and I started sweating,

683
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: and so I don't even know if you heard this

684
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: in my microphone. I started whispering because I thought I

685
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: got really dizzy, and you know how like the world

686
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: starts closing in on you, so that starts happening. And

687
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: there was back in the day we had fake candles

688
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: after a while, but back you were real candles. So

689
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: we had these this huge candle set up next to

690
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: me on the left, and I thought, I was I

691
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: wasn't even listening to what you were saying anymore. And

692
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: I was like, well, if I pass out, I'm going

693
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: to try and roll to the right, and so my

694
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: face in it. Oh, I thought I was going to

695
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: pass out, and then I think we stopped down for

696
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: like an hour that day.

697
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: That was my question.

698
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 6: I'm glad to hear that you really were sick, because

699
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 6: I kind of felt like duped after the fact, and

700
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 6: like I could see you did look a little gray

701
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 6: or green as.

702
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 3: They call it. But I was sitting there. They bring

703
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: me out.

704
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 6: I walk out and like was we were starting to

705
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 6: go when this happened, and the audience is booing me,

706
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 6: the girls are chirping at me. They are gassed up

707
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 6: on like tequila, and I sit down, so I'm like

708
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 6: ready to go, and then they're like, Chris needs to

709
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 6: lay down, and I was like, oh, okay, like thinking

710
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 6: you'll just be right back or make up.

711
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 3: I don't know which means.

712
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: That's the weirdest thing in the world. Chris needs to

713
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: lay down. That's never happened before. I've he's just never

714
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: heard that. I've been sick twice in the history of

715
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: the show. I was sick twice once.

716
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 3: Hey, that's a good batting average.

717
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: It was I was at the lady's house, I was

718
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: at the mansion, and I had to do a quick

719
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: just date card thing, so it didn't matter and then

720
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: there was you. I don't even remember, and I hate

721
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: to admit this, I don't even remember what I was

722
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: asking because I wasn't even listening. If a producer wasn't

723
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: in my ear at that moment when you stop talking,

724
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: somebody would say something and I would ask that question.

725
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: I wasn't even in the building. I had no and

726
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: I felt horrible. I felt so guilty because I really

727
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: liked you, as you know, thank you, and I thought

728
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: you were I understood why there was this kind of

729
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: villain moniker, but I also understood that there was this

730
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: other side to you and that you were this really

731
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: sweet woman, and maybe misunderstood a little bit, and so

732
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I'm going to try and bring

733
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 1: this out, kind of like I did with Michelle Money,

734
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: and I just wasn't there for you. I felt like

735
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: I abandoned you.

736
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 6: Well, it's so funny that you say that, because I

737
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 6: kind of felt like, God, maybe he just doesn't like me,

738
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 6: like because you know, and that's really nice of you

739
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 6: to say that. Actually, like feels good to hear, because

740
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 6: I felt like we had always had such good interactions

741
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 6: and not that you abandoned me, but like like you said,

742
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 6: like I was so terrified, but like I had watched

743
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 6: Michelle Moneies because I was like, how is this going

744
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 6: to go?

745
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 3: And it wasn't that. It was just very like matter

746
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: of fact, like how's your family doing?

747
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 1: And I was like like like I wasn't even listening,

748
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: like you're not even responding to what I'm saying.

749
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 3: But on top of it, the girls.

750
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 6: Were yelling like there's no way that you could have stopped.

751
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 6: Like it's almost like this woman tall all with Jesse Palmer,

752
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 6: like it's just like it was like and like you

753
00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 6: you weren't there.

754
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: I really pride myself on listening and then you know,

755
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: I'll have something in mind. But then usually the question,

756
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, we go off on a tangent somewhere else

757
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: because that's where the interview takes you. And you could

758
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: have said the sky is blue, and my next question

759
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: could have been what color do you think the sky is?

760
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: It was just I was so out of it.

761
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 6: That makes so much sense to me, honestly, and like

762
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 6: there were things that I wanted to like get across,

763
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 6: and also this was before it was live.

764
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: Yes, thank god.

765
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: Can you imagine if you rolled off? No?

766
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what it would happened because I

767
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: had to go laid down Paulie. You remember Big Poulie,

768
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: our stage man.

769
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: I love.

770
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 3: I just saw him and they just had me back

771
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: for group days. Oh really still there and he hooked

772
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: me up on the stage.

773
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: Yah's one of my favorite human beings. And he literally

774
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: carried me to my room and laid me down on

775
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: the couch and was just like, are you okay? I

776
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: was like, I think I'm going to die. I'm like,

777
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: I just need a minute and I'm sorry in a

778
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: flop sweat for like thirty minutes, and then came back

779
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 1: and then hosted the rest of the show and then

780
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: went back and just passed out. It was war.

781
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: You're a professional. You're a professional.

782
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: Back to you know, being quote unquote a villain. Do

783
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: you have advice for people now that you host your

784
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: own podcast and you talk to so many people and

785
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: I'm sure hopefully people have reached out to you. What

786
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: is your advice to people that are either coined as

787
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 1: the villain or going on a reality show?

788
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 6: Oh gosh, so much advice. I mean, you really have

789
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 6: to have thick skin, mind you. Instagram wasn't a thing

790
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 6: when I went on. Twitter was kind of a thing.

791
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 6: But the online hate and the trolls are really like,

792
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 6: it doesn't matter who you are Kardashian, Rihanna, anybody in

793
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 6: the public eye, you are going to get hate. I mean,

794
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 6: I've had the most vile things said to me. I've

795
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 6: had stalkers. I've had two stalkers. So just be prepared,

796
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 6: like try to put yourself. You can't really prepare for it,

797
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 6: like you think, oh, I might get a little famous,

798
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 6: but just really keep that into consideration because your privacy

799
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 6: just goes away for like for me, like I said,

800
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 6: years like, I mean, wouldn't I couldn't go places. I

801
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 6: lost my privacy and that was really hard for me

802
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 6: because I was kind of this free spirit in Santa

803
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 6: Monica and I didn't think it through all the way.

804
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: I guess, well, I don't know if anybody can. And

805
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: this is what I always say about people that say, oh,

806
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: Courtney knew, she knew what she was signing up for,

807
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: she was going on the You don't. They don't. I

808
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: don't care how long the show's been on the air.

809
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: You can't comprehend how your life can change if you

810
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: are the one now for ninety five percent of the

811
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: people on the show. Your life won't change positive. Yeah,

812
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: it could be positive or whatever, but whether it's good

813
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: or bad, there's certain people that just pop in. Your

814
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: life changes and it can be a wonderful thing and

815
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: lead to money and all that, but it can be

816
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: very difficult. And I try to tell people, Yeah, there's

817
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: no way Courtney could have prepared herself, even being a wonderful,

818
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: talented model coming into this understanding dating a celebrity. No way,

819
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: no way you can prepare for it.

820
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 6: It's like the ABC, It's like any show, like now

821
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 6: they have these amazing Netflix dating shows, like you just

822
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 6: get rust into the life.

823
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 3: I didn't.

824
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 6: I guess I didn't realize what a big show it

825
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 6: really was, and like how passionate the fans are, and

826
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 6: as I'm sure you know, and I'm dying to ask

827
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 6: you because I thought of you during your your whole

828
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 6: thing that happened, and I wondered if you thought of

829
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 6: like the villains, Like if you, for the first time

830
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 6: in your life, felt that blowback in such a big

831
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 6: way that maybe you hadn't before.

832
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: It was a great question. Two things that really gave

833
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: me perspective on the show. Going through my divorce and

834
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: going through a breakup, dating again and being back in

835
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: that world gave me such great perspective. And then yeah,

836
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: going through what I went through has made me rethink

837
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: and how I was treated by the show, by producers,

838
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: by executives, the things promises made, promises not kept, et cetera.

839
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: It made me sorry for some of the things that

840
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: people went through thinking. I think I was pretty naive,

841
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: thinking that there's no way certain things were happening, and

842
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: they probably were behind my back and under my nose.

843
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 1: I wish I'd been a little bit more aware, but

844
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: for sure, it definitely gave me a whole different perspective

845
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: on people like yourself. Honestly, it really has.

846
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 6: It's a big weight on your shoulders. And for me, truthfully,

847
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 6: and I don't know if I haven't admitted it much,

848
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 6: but it was really embarrassing if the cringe the embarrassment

849
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 6: that I had, Like there would be days where I

850
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 6: just didn't leave my house.

851
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: I was just so embarrassed and I didn't want to

852
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 3: face the world.

853
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: Well, you are facing it now and you're doing so beautifully,

854
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: married children, beautiful life, and you have your podcast, so.

855
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 6: It's after reality and it's really focusing on what life

856
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 6: is really like after reality TV, like how do you

857
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 6: figure it out? And yes, interviewing some celebrities and former contestants,

858
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 6: especially villains, and talking about motherhood and.

859
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: What that really looks like.

860
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 6: I think it's easy to see this picture perfect highlight

861
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 6: reel on Instagram, but it's tough.

862
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: It's the hardest job in the world.

863
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 6: And I'm going to be talking to other moms and

864
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 6: I think people will find it funny and relatable and

865
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 6: I'll definitely bring the tea in the snark.

866
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: Courtney, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for

867
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: being such a dear friend and supporter. And you may

868
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: have been known as a villain, but let me just

869
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: say it for the whole world to hear. This woman

870
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: is anything but you are an absolute gem and I

871
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: thank you so much.

872
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,479
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, anytime, Chris, I'm always in your corner.

873
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: So good to reconnect with Courtney, and I'm so happy

874
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: that she is living this beautiful life with her husband

875
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: two kids. She's an amazing mom, one of those people

876
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: that I do keep in touch with from time to time,

877
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,479
Speaker 1: and she's just been a big supporter and a dear friend,

878
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: and it's always good to see a smile on her

879
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: face and to see how she handled being a villain

880
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: at the time and how, yes, I played a part

881
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: in that, and as she very astutely brought up in

882
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: her question to me, if I sympathize with that more

883
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: considering what I went through And the answer emphatically as

884
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: I said, is yes, I definitely empathize and sympathize with

885
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: the villains and how they have been treated by their productions,

886
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: by executives, by fans. Very interesting, how the tables can

887
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: be turned. The tables definitely were turned on My next guest,

888
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: Kelly Dodd, reality television star. For sure, you have to

889
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: say that, but you also have to say quite the

890
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: villain for the Real Housewives of Orange County.

891
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 5: He said, I love you and then picked someone else.

892
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 5: They haven't spoken in seven years. For the first time

893
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 5: since their television breakup, they are reunited bachelor Ben Higgins,

894
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 5: Bachelorette Joe, Joe Fletcher, and Jordan Rodgers together for the

895
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 5: first time and you get to hear it all. Join

896
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 5: Ashley I and Ben Haygen's along with Jojoe Fletcher, and

897
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 5: Jordan Rodgers on the Almost Famous podcast available now wherever

898
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 5: you listen to podcasts.

899
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: Joining me from her house in Orange County. Kelly Dodd

900
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: from the Real Housewives of Orange County, one of the

901
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: more infamous housewives. I would say of all time, is

902
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: that is that fair?

903
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 4: I hope so, I don't know.

904
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty good.

905
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's pretty fair. You were clearly

906
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: a great housewife fan favorite. But would you also say

907
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: you were a villain? Is that fair?

908
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 4: I feel like I was attacked and I just stoock

909
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 4: up for myself. But I wouldn't say I did anything,

910
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 4: you know, and look into people's business. I didn't make

911
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 4: up rumors. I didn't do anything like that. I mean,

912
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 4: I don't feel like I was a villain.

913
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: I always find it interesting because I've been on both

914
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: sides of this, as far as being the host of

915
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: the Bachelor Bacherette for so long, and I saw how

916
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: it worked, but I also saw it happened naturally, meaning

917
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: sometimes producers are involved and there's clever editing and all that,

918
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: But then sometimes people just didn't resonate with the audience

919
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: the way I thought they would, and they became a

920
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: quote unquote villain. What camp do you fall in? Would

921
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: you say some editing producing or was it just the

922
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: way you were taken by the fans?

923
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 4: I think it was just the way I was taken

924
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 4: by the fans. I think they did. You know, they

925
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 4: showed they provoked me. They they tried to, you know,

926
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 4: poke the bear, my buttons, poked the bear, like making

927
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 4: up rumors, you know, saying I did a sex train

928
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 4: which I've never even had a pretty some you know,

929
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 4: making up trying to get me drunk, trying to get

930
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 4: you know, trying to make up rumors saying that you know,

931
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 4: I cheated on my head. They're just like awful, nasty

932
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 4: things where I felt like, you know, I have a

933
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 4: daughter that was young at the time, and it was

934
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 4: just like unnecessary lies that and I felt like I

935
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: needed to defend myself. It I it was all meant. Now,

936
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 4: was there editing involved? I mean were they yeah, yeah,

937
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 4: like poke the bear, get her drunk? Yes, there was

938
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 4: and there, But but I think, you know, half, like

939
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 4: like Andy Cohen said, I'm polarizing. Half the country likes

940
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 4: me and half the country doesn't, you know, And I

941
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: think that's what reality is, right.

942
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: Like, that's not a good good reality TV for sure.

943
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: It makes you think it provokes you to make up

944
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: your own opinion on somebody mm hmm. And the main

945
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 1: thing is I was always wondering, you know, with with

946
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: all villains that are coming on today's show. You know,

947
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: if they felt like they were for the most part,

948
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: it is TV. If you, for the most part were

949
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: portrayed as Kelly Dot if you felt like, yeah, that's me,

950
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, that was me speaking my piece.

951
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 4: It's not me. It's not They don't show all of me.

952
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 4: They only show snippets of me. So what you see

953
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 4: on that show isn't me. Like I do a daily

954
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 4: show on YouTube called The Daily Smash, the Rick and

955
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: Kelly Show, and I do it every single day and

956
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 4: everybody that writes my comments because I wish they would

957
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 4: have showed this side of you on TV, Like, they

958
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 4: don't show that part of me. They only show the

959
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 4: parts were the conflict resolution kind of. They didn't see

960
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 4: my day to day how I react and how I

961
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 4: really am on the daily you know. And also I

962
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 4: was going I was in a bad relationship. I was

963
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 4: in a bad marriage, and that also I wasn't in

964
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 4: the right head space at the time, so you know,

965
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 4: you know, they never told me what to say or

966
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 4: what to do. That was on me, So I mean,

967
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 4: I have to own that. However it is produced. It

968
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 4: is trying to make you look bad and horrible in

969
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 4: a lot of ways. But whenever I said that came

970
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 4: out of my mouth, came out of my mouth myself.

971
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: Well, and do you to that point, do you regret anything?

972
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: Or do you feel like you were always defending yourself?

973
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,919
Speaker 1: Is there anything you look back and you're like, maybe

974
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have called her a pig or said some

975
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: of these things. Maybe I went a little too far.

976
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 4: No, I don't regret anything. What I do regret is

977
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 4: even dancing or entertaining like rumors, you know, like entertaining

978
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 4: that like I should have just walked away and not

979
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 4: even entertained it because it's garbage and it was lies,

980
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 4: and I should have just said, like I shouldn't even

981
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 4: have entertained.

982
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: That's one of the hardest things to do. I always

983
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: talked to about that when there are things thrown your way,

984
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: and I dealt with this myself when I went through

985
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: my situation. The hardest thing in the world to do

986
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: is shut up and not speak, because you want to speak,

987
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: but all that does is fan the flames, and it

988
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: gives the story legs, and it gives everybody another thing

989
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,959
Speaker 1: to write about and talk about. So it is hard

990
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: to not defend yourself because it's counterintuitive to somebody who's

991
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: strong and independent.

992
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, well, I think that what I did wrong

993
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 4: for me was I that whole COVID thing. I feel

994
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 4: like if I would have just like, not been on

995
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 4: social media, I would have I wouldn't I still still

996
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 4: have a high paying job. But also I'm happy that

997
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 4: I out was outspoken what I do regret. I didn't

998
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 4: do anything on the show and that Annie Coney said that.

999
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: So you're you're referring to why you were eventually fired

1000
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: from the show, right, is there a world in which

1001
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: you would ever go back to the Real Housewives?

1002
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 4: You know, you know, it's so funny that you say

1003
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 4: that I loved the money.

1004
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 3: I loved it, and.

1005
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 4: I absolutely did.

1006
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: Does it pay well paid?

1007
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 5: Well?

1008
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 4: I was getting paid, you know, almost half a million

1009
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 4: dollars a seison, yes, a season. Yeah, it's a big chunk.

1010
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 4: And now that but I made more money on that

1011
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 4: because I did meet and greets and I got to

1012
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 4: you know, speaking engagements, and so it was you know,

1013
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 4: I mean it was a lucrative job, but it got there.

1014
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 4: You didn't get paid that your first second season, you know.

1015
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 4: I was on there for five years. Yeah, but it

1016
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 4: was a lucrative, easy job. You know, all I had

1017
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 4: to do was film for four months and then do

1018
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 4: you know, press and do those confessionals. I mean it

1019
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 4: was easy.

1020
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. They've monetized that show very well with Bravocan and

1021
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: all that that stuff. That's something that the Bachler Bacherette

1022
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: never did. They just could never get their ducks in

1023
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: a row and pull it out to do that. Because

1024
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: it's brilliant. There's a whole other cottage industry outside of this.

1025
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1026
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 4: Well before that, before the bravocns, I used to go

1027
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 4: do these these junkets with Derinda and Teresa Judais and

1028
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 4: Dolores and Tamra and we'd go like to Mohegan's son

1029
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 4: and do these meet and greets, and Bravo saw that

1030
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 4: we were making money doing that, and then they're like,

1031
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 4: uh uh uh huh, yeah, we're doing Bravocon and you know, uh,

1032
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 4: you're not going to be making more money. Well we're

1033
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 4: going to be We're the ones that are going to

1034
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 4: be making money.

1035
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: Well, do you find it ironic to a certain degree

1036
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: that they created, helped create this persona for you, this villainous,

1037
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: you know housewife. That's that's how they made ratings, that's

1038
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: how they made money, and then they turn around and

1039
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: fired you for being that person in real life.

1040
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 4: Right, I don't feel like I'm like again, I don't

1041
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 4: feel like I'm a villain. I didn't cheat people out

1042
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 4: of anything. I'd never been to prison. I I you know,

1043
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 4: I didn't lie in court and say that you know,

1044
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 4: you know, lie on my taxes, file bankruptcy. I mean,

1045
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know how I.

1046
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: Which A host of housewives have done all this stuff

1047
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: has been done.

1048
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 4: I'm not, you know, a villain, but those people are villains.

1049
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 4: I'm just outspoken. But it's I guess, like again, there's

1050
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 4: I have a huge following, you know I have. I

1051
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 4: have a close to a million followers that never paid

1052
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 4: for and they like what I have to say and

1053
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 4: what I stand for. I was too real for that Housewives.

1054
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, that's interesting. It was like it was good

1055
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: for them when they needed it, and then when it

1056
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: got to be too much, they didn't like that.

1057
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 4: They didn't like anything that I had to say I

1058
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 4: was too real for the Housewives.

1059
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: Well, Kelly, I really wanted to talk to you because

1060
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, we're doing this entire episode on villains, and

1061
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: I again, because of my perspective on this, I always

1062
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: found it just very interesting who resonated and why And

1063
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: the overall thing that I always said when I was

1064
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: hosting the show is these are still people. I know

1065
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: you see Kelly dot on Real Housewives, but this is

1066
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: a real woman who has a real family and living

1067
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: a real life. Right And did you do you find

1068
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: that fans and viewers had a tough time separating those two.

1069
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, because I'm you know, I

1070
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 4: have a Patreon. You know, I have a patreon on

1071
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 4: YouTube and I have you know, I'm making a living

1072
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 4: off of that because I do have a lot of

1073
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 4: fans that I think just like I do. Yeah, and

1074
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 4: that's the reality. You know, half the people think like

1075
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 4: I do and have the people don't. But you know,

1076
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 4: if people want to portray me as a villain, you know,

1077
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 4: and that's the thing, Like they came out with the

1078
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 4: Ultimate Girls Trip of Villains, uh huh, they didn't pick me.

1079
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 4: If if that was a villain. How come they didn't

1080
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,959
Speaker 4: pick me? They just don't like what I have to say.

1081
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: They think that I am a villain, right, very interesting. Well, Kelly,

1082
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: I appreciate your time and your insight on this and

1083
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: kind of opening the door to what it was like

1084
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,399
Speaker 1: to be known as a villain on a reality show,

1085
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: whether you are or aren't in the real world. And

1086
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

1087
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having me. It was

1088
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 4: great talking to you and seeing you.

1089
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: All Right, Kelly, take care, all right, take care.

1090
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1091
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: My thanks to Kelly Dodd, Courtney Robertson, Richard Hatch. These

1092
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 1: three human beings who were unknown the day before they

1093
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: stepped foot on the set of The Real Housewives, The Bachelor,

1094
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: and Survivor. But now are sonon with those shows and

1095
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: with reality TV and with being a reality TV villain

1096
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: and what that means. But if you take anything away,

1097
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: as I told Courtney, and I've said this many times

1098
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: to people that have been on The Bachelor and Bacherette,

1099
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: these are people. These are real people. And I know

1100
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: many fans listening and on social media will say, well,

1101
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: that's what they signed up for, yes, and no, I

1102
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: can't begin to tell you how being shot out of

1103
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: a cannon without a net on the other side feels.

1104
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: But that is what it's like. Your hair is on

1105
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: fire and you're shot out of this cannon. You thought

1106
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: there would be some press, Yeah, you thought you might

1107
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: catch some grief on social media. But when you are

1108
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 1: the quote unquote villain or even the star of the show,

1109
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: I just don't think you can really prepare yourself for that.

1110
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: So maybe, in the immortal words of Richard Hatch, know

1111
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: who you are before you step on set. Know you

1112
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: have that confidence because trying to figure out in the

1113
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: middle of it is not going to work. Good lesson

1114
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: in life and a great show today, and I thank

1115
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 1: you all for being here, and I think my guest,

1116
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: as always, I love diving into this subject matter. I

1117
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 1: love having real conversations, and I love having those conversations

1118
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 1: with you. And I will talk to you next time

1119
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: because we have a lot more to talk about. Thanks

1120
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 1: for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic

1121
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: pod ever and make sure to write us a review

1122
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.