1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin so Jake. 2 00:00:21,676 --> 00:00:24,516 Speaker 2: When we started reporting this series, I set out to 3 00:00:24,516 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 2: speak with one of Santos's donors because I thought it 4 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 2: would be interesting to talk to someone who chose to 5 00:00:32,756 --> 00:00:33,676 Speaker 2: support Santos. 6 00:00:34,396 --> 00:00:36,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I totally didn't think you're gonna get anyone 7 00:00:36,676 --> 00:00:37,716 Speaker 3: to talk to you on the record. 8 00:00:38,876 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 2: Me too, But also, I mean, Santos's donors play a 9 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:46,036 Speaker 2: significant role in the indictments against him, so I was 10 00:00:46,076 --> 00:00:49,556 Speaker 2: hopeful I would get someone on the record. And now, 11 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:53,876 Speaker 2: with George Santos pleading guilty in federal court, we won't 12 00:00:53,876 --> 00:00:57,436 Speaker 2: have a trial, and so there's many people we won't 13 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:02,916 Speaker 2: hear from. But today you're gonna hear from someone who 14 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:06,956 Speaker 2: was subpoenaed, someone who was expecting to have to testify 15 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:12,796 Speaker 2: about George Santos, who once upon a time was his ally. 16 00:01:14,436 --> 00:01:19,516 Speaker 4: I met George at an event in Maddictuck, out east 17 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:25,076 Speaker 4: on Long Island, probably in twenty twenty one. It was hot, 18 00:01:25,156 --> 00:01:26,516 Speaker 4: so it must have been the summer. 19 00:01:27,276 --> 00:01:28,716 Speaker 1: This is Kathy Soref. 20 00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:33,156 Speaker 4: It was an event that was held by someone I 21 00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:36,876 Speaker 4: didn't know, but I had been invited to this, probably 22 00:01:36,956 --> 00:01:44,236 Speaker 4: because of my history of supporting conservative candidates. 23 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:48,076 Speaker 2: She's a Republican donor who lives on Long Island on 24 00:01:48,116 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 2: the north. 25 00:01:48,436 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 3: Shore, the North Shore like Gatsby Country. 26 00:01:51,556 --> 00:01:52,476 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. 27 00:01:53,596 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 2: Kathy has voted for every Republican presidential candidate since Gerald Ford. 28 00:01:59,596 --> 00:02:02,916 Speaker 2: When I interviewed Kathy at her house, there was a 29 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 2: lot going on. I got the sense that Kathy's house 30 00:02:06,276 --> 00:02:11,716 Speaker 2: is always buzzing with activity. And also just me calling 31 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:15,476 Speaker 2: it a house is really underselling it, because this place 32 00:02:15,596 --> 00:02:16,076 Speaker 2: was massive. 33 00:02:16,636 --> 00:02:17,396 Speaker 1: Outside. 34 00:02:17,716 --> 00:02:21,836 Speaker 2: There are these colorful sculptures of animals all over the property, 35 00:02:21,956 --> 00:02:26,756 Speaker 2: like think pink, blue, purple. The house is at the 36 00:02:26,916 --> 00:02:30,996 Speaker 2: end of a private road, and when I parked outside, 37 00:02:31,076 --> 00:02:34,396 Speaker 2: I noticed there was room to park. I guess at 38 00:02:34,476 --> 00:02:37,076 Speaker 2: least ten cars outside the front door. 39 00:02:38,276 --> 00:02:40,676 Speaker 4: What do you call the house the Villa Gorilla? 40 00:02:40,876 --> 00:02:42,396 Speaker 1: Where did that name come from? 41 00:02:42,956 --> 00:02:47,356 Speaker 4: Well, it's disputed. My nephews take credit for it, but 42 00:02:47,796 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 4: I think that Douglas named it that after a Warren 43 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:52,036 Speaker 4: Zevon saw. 44 00:02:52,676 --> 00:02:56,596 Speaker 2: Douglas is her husband. So all this to say, she's 45 00:02:56,636 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 2: got a great house for parties. Anyway, back to the 46 00:02:59,796 --> 00:03:04,316 Speaker 2: moment when Kathy first met George Santos. She told me 47 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:07,956 Speaker 2: that before she actually met him in person, at that 48 00:03:08,196 --> 00:03:11,676 Speaker 2: Republican fundrase r out east on the Island, she got 49 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 2: a phone call. 50 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:15,556 Speaker 4: I don't know how much of a coincidence it was, 51 00:03:15,636 --> 00:03:19,596 Speaker 4: but I received a phone call from George asking for 52 00:03:20,716 --> 00:03:25,196 Speaker 4: money because he was announcing his candidacy. 53 00:03:25,396 --> 00:03:27,636 Speaker 3: Before that even met. He just like cold called. 54 00:03:27,396 --> 00:03:30,476 Speaker 1: Her, yes, well, out of the blue. 55 00:03:30,636 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 3: Like he'd just gotten a whiff of what she might 56 00:03:33,516 --> 00:03:34,196 Speaker 3: do for him. 57 00:03:34,756 --> 00:03:35,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 58 00:03:36,316 --> 00:03:39,876 Speaker 2: And then when she arrives at the fundraiser, guess who 59 00:03:39,916 --> 00:03:40,676 Speaker 2: she's sitting with. 60 00:03:41,276 --> 00:03:45,956 Speaker 4: We were seated at the same table. George described himself 61 00:03:46,116 --> 00:03:50,876 Speaker 4: as being independently well to do and felt that he 62 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:55,876 Speaker 4: it was his civic duty to participate in public service. 63 00:03:56,356 --> 00:03:58,756 Speaker 2: And Kathy told me that she liked him even from 64 00:03:58,756 --> 00:04:03,156 Speaker 2: that first meeting, even if he wasn't her perfect candidate. 65 00:04:03,676 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 4: George is not your average type and certainly not my 66 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:18,396 Speaker 4: ideal political candidate, but for a Republican running in Democrat 67 00:04:18,596 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 4: New York, I thought he would be he would win. So, 68 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:28,156 Speaker 4: you know, I said that I would support him and 69 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 4: give him, you know, a couple of events which I 70 00:04:32,156 --> 00:04:35,796 Speaker 4: did to help him introduce him to other people. So 71 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:40,036 Speaker 4: I expended a lot of my own personal political capital, 72 00:04:40,876 --> 00:04:46,596 Speaker 4: meaning my friends and connections who participate in conservative politics, 73 00:04:47,236 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 4: and they supported George for the same reason that I did. 74 00:04:51,956 --> 00:04:54,156 Speaker 3: What does she mean by that? What is her reason? 75 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 2: I think she meant that he was a candidate who 76 00:04:56,996 --> 00:05:00,356 Speaker 2: could maybe win in New York and in that district. 77 00:05:00,836 --> 00:05:02,956 Speaker 1: You know, she found him quite charming. 78 00:05:03,876 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 4: Well, he's kind of a weird guy, but he's kind 79 00:05:06,476 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 4: of oddly charismatics, whip it smart, a very very quick thinking, 80 00:05:15,116 --> 00:05:20,356 Speaker 4: he has a lot of social references, and he's very palsy. 81 00:05:21,716 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 2: And Kathy isn't the only one who saw something promising 82 00:05:24,756 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 2: in this new young candidate. She was just one of 83 00:05:29,436 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 2: many donors who contributed to the Santos campaign. Donors who 84 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 2: were deceived and in some cases defrauded, And these donors 85 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 2: have played a huge role in his unraveling. 86 00:05:41,196 --> 00:05:44,636 Speaker 1: The man who flew under the radar for so long and. 87 00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:47,716 Speaker 2: Seemingly got away with a lot of lies and half 88 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:52,676 Speaker 2: truths and deceit has finally had to face some real consequences. 89 00:05:54,756 --> 00:06:04,396 Speaker 2: This is Deep Cover George Santos Episode four, The Donor. So, 90 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:10,076 Speaker 2: as you're aware, Santos was indicted twice, but I want 91 00:06:10,116 --> 00:06:13,116 Speaker 2: to talk for a moment about that first indictment that 92 00:06:13,236 --> 00:06:15,316 Speaker 2: came down in May of twenty twenty three. 93 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:17,356 Speaker 1: We were shocked. 94 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:23,236 Speaker 5: My phone is literally blowing up in the worst way possible. 95 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 5: Inquiries about saying, is George going to jail? What's going on? 96 00:06:26,876 --> 00:06:30,596 Speaker 5: And it's just I thought, my reputation is so screwed. 97 00:06:31,316 --> 00:06:36,516 Speaker 2: That's Nesa Woomer. She was Santos's communications director. So this 98 00:06:36,636 --> 00:06:41,756 Speaker 2: indictment is for thirteen counts. The charges range from money 99 00:06:41,796 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 2: laundering to stealing public money, wire fraud, and making false 100 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:51,756 Speaker 2: statements to Congress. And it's in that moment that everyone 101 00:06:51,836 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 2: can see for the first time, really what sort of 102 00:06:55,476 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 2: criminal allegations George Santos is facing. These are things that 103 00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:03,636 Speaker 2: go beyond the stories that he told about his personal 104 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:07,916 Speaker 2: life or some fabrications on his resume. A lot had 105 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 2: been speculated. Things come into sharp focus when the charges 106 00:07:12,156 --> 00:07:12,516 Speaker 2: come out. 107 00:07:13,236 --> 00:07:17,556 Speaker 5: I'm disgusted. I'm thoroughly disgusted. I thought, okay, now we're 108 00:07:17,556 --> 00:07:21,316 Speaker 5: in you know, wire fraud and money laundering. You know, 109 00:07:22,076 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 5: respect is gone. It became it was too much and 110 00:07:24,796 --> 00:07:25,796 Speaker 5: it became too toxic. 111 00:07:26,436 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 2: And directly following that indictment, Santos faces a vote from 112 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:35,756 Speaker 2: the House. Someone introduces a resolution to expel him. Essentially 113 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:38,516 Speaker 2: to oust him from Congress, and I'm. 114 00:07:38,436 --> 00:07:44,316 Speaker 6: Personally in favor of this individual's expulsion from this House. Regretably, however, 115 00:07:44,916 --> 00:07:47,236 Speaker 6: I'm in the understanding that we currently do not have 116 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 6: the two thirds support from members of this House to 117 00:07:50,396 --> 00:07:51,436 Speaker 6: expel that individual. 118 00:07:51,996 --> 00:07:54,396 Speaker 2: So, just to break down what's happening here, you're hearing 119 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:58,636 Speaker 2: from a Republican also from New York, who is not 120 00:07:58,676 --> 00:08:01,796 Speaker 2: happy with Santos. But at this moment in time, the 121 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:05,116 Speaker 2: Republicans have the majority in the House, and it seems 122 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:08,716 Speaker 2: like politically there are quite a few Republicans who don't 123 00:08:08,716 --> 00:08:10,476 Speaker 2: want to put that into jeopardy. 124 00:08:10,916 --> 00:08:12,436 Speaker 3: Just to be clear here, this is a district that 125 00:08:12,476 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 3: could swing back to blue in theory. 126 00:08:15,196 --> 00:08:18,476 Speaker 2: Yes, so the House votes to keep Santos in office 127 00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:23,396 Speaker 2: for now. But in this moment, Nesa is done. You know, 128 00:08:23,476 --> 00:08:26,476 Speaker 2: she's asked around for advice and they've all basically told 129 00:08:26,516 --> 00:08:27,196 Speaker 2: her the same thing. 130 00:08:28,236 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 4: They just said. 131 00:08:29,516 --> 00:08:31,636 Speaker 5: If I were you, or if I was advising a client, 132 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 5: I would resign. The longer you stay, the longer it's 133 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:36,516 Speaker 5: going to hurt you. 134 00:08:37,876 --> 00:08:42,036 Speaker 2: NASA resigns right after that unsuccessful vote to oust Santos 135 00:08:42,036 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 2: from Congress. 136 00:08:43,396 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 3: So I'm curious back in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, 137 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:51,996 Speaker 3: the donors that George Santos was courting people like Kathy. 138 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:55,676 Speaker 3: Do you get the sense that she had any idea 139 00:08:55,956 --> 00:08:57,476 Speaker 3: what this guy was really up to. 140 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:00,956 Speaker 2: Kathy has said to me that she had no clue 141 00:09:01,116 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 2: about what George Santos was up to, and I believe 142 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 2: her on that. I mean, she had no reason not 143 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:10,276 Speaker 2: to trust him in that moment. I do get the 144 00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 2: sense that Kathy and George Santos formed a friendship in 145 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:16,556 Speaker 2: the time that they knew each other. 146 00:09:17,556 --> 00:09:21,316 Speaker 4: He came to my house several times. He would drop. 147 00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:26,756 Speaker 4: He claimed to live near here. He told me that 148 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 4: his mother died of cancer. He told me that his 149 00:09:30,716 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 4: mother went to Harvard. 150 00:09:32,756 --> 00:09:34,396 Speaker 1: He told you that his mother went to Harvard. 151 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:38,956 Speaker 4: Yes, he did. And he also told me that he 152 00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:40,596 Speaker 4: had survived cancer. 153 00:09:41,516 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 1: That George had survived cancer. 154 00:09:43,876 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 4: Right, he did tell me that, did he give? I 155 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:49,756 Speaker 4: didn't go into it because when someone says, oh, yes, 156 00:09:49,836 --> 00:09:52,876 Speaker 4: I'm a cancer survivor, I didn't say, well, what kind 157 00:09:52,956 --> 00:09:56,076 Speaker 4: did you have? I just was kind of stunned. I said, oh, 158 00:09:56,076 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 4: I'm sorry. That added to his story and appeal that 159 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:01,676 Speaker 4: he's a survivor. 160 00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:04,876 Speaker 3: You see It's like it's like a jazz musician. He's 161 00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:08,796 Speaker 3: just improvising. I haven't heard these these Santos stories yet. 162 00:10:08,796 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 2: This is yes, wow, yeah, this is the first time 163 00:10:12,396 --> 00:10:14,636 Speaker 2: I had heard a lot of this too. And I 164 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:17,916 Speaker 2: think that maybe some of these stories were cherry picked 165 00:10:17,916 --> 00:10:19,116 Speaker 2: for Kathy. 166 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:20,396 Speaker 3: What do you mean that you think that some of 167 00:10:20,436 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 3: these stories might have been cherry picked for Kathy? 168 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:27,276 Speaker 2: Like these are things that George Santos thought would impress Kathy, 169 00:10:28,396 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 2: and I should say. Kathy would later tell me it 170 00:10:31,236 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 2: was actually Yale that his mother attended, not Harvard, and 171 00:10:35,556 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 2: that she actually isn't all that impressed by an Ivy 172 00:10:39,316 --> 00:10:44,756 Speaker 2: League education. But regardless, I see this as George Santos 173 00:10:45,076 --> 00:10:49,596 Speaker 2: trying to play the role trying to impress Kathy. I see, 174 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:53,396 Speaker 2: And George needs someone like Kathy to like him, right, 175 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:57,396 Speaker 2: because Kathy is a door to connections to more money, 176 00:10:57,876 --> 00:11:01,476 Speaker 2: Which brings us back to this event that Kathy decides 177 00:11:01,516 --> 00:11:04,836 Speaker 2: she's going to throw for George at the Villa Gorilla. 178 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:08,876 Speaker 2: She couldn't remember the exact date, but thinks it was 179 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:11,996 Speaker 2: ing the twenty twenty two campaign. She told me she 180 00:11:12,076 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 2: sent out printed invites, and of course I wanted to 181 00:11:15,196 --> 00:11:16,196 Speaker 2: hear every detail. 182 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:21,396 Speaker 1: Santos stood at the door. He was like the welcome wagon. 183 00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:24,316 Speaker 4: He was greeting everyone, and we were standing in the 184 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:27,356 Speaker 4: front hall and I would introduce him to everyone. It 185 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 4: was casual. Then we were inside and outside, and then 186 00:11:31,116 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 4: he gave this talk in the living room. George was 187 00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:35,316 Speaker 4: very funny and engaging. 188 00:11:35,956 --> 00:11:38,476 Speaker 3: It's funny the image of him standing at the door 189 00:11:38,516 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 3: to this mansion as if he were welcoming guests to 190 00:11:42,196 --> 00:11:44,876 Speaker 3: his own home. I mean it just that seems so 191 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:47,636 Speaker 3: believable to me and so kind of fitting for this 192 00:11:47,716 --> 00:11:48,956 Speaker 3: guy's aspirations. 193 00:11:49,316 --> 00:11:50,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, and who. 194 00:11:50,396 --> 00:11:53,476 Speaker 3: Were the people at Villa Gorilla that evening? 195 00:11:54,356 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 4: My focus is next generation, So we had quite a 196 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:03,716 Speaker 4: few young people here from the area. Maybe we had 197 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:07,236 Speaker 4: thirty people. But I'm sure he raised a fair amount 198 00:12:07,236 --> 00:12:12,556 Speaker 4: of money. I had several of my local, longtime friends 199 00:12:12,596 --> 00:12:17,556 Speaker 4: who showed up for it. It was tremendously horrible for 200 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:19,076 Speaker 4: me of what happened. 201 00:12:21,676 --> 00:12:25,196 Speaker 2: What happened, meaning when she eventually learned what Santos was 202 00:12:25,236 --> 00:12:29,516 Speaker 2: really up to. When the New York Times story came out. 203 00:12:29,076 --> 00:12:32,876 Speaker 4: The guy hood winked everyone. For me, I'm furious because 204 00:12:32,996 --> 00:12:35,996 Speaker 4: I spent some of my friends that I asked to 205 00:12:36,036 --> 00:12:39,636 Speaker 4: support George. I mean all of them, they know me, 206 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:42,596 Speaker 4: so they're you know, and they were hoodwinked and know 207 00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 4: that I was hoodwinked. But they were upset that they 208 00:12:46,116 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 4: were dragged into this and it was my responsibility. 209 00:12:50,676 --> 00:12:50,916 Speaker 7: You know. 210 00:12:51,036 --> 00:12:53,876 Speaker 4: I am mad at myself for not doing my own 211 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:54,756 Speaker 4: due diligence. 212 00:12:56,196 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 3: Does Kathy see herself as a victim? 213 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:04,076 Speaker 2: Kathy told me that she considers herself that she was 214 00:13:04,116 --> 00:13:08,036 Speaker 2: defrauded by George Santos, but she does not think that Santos, 215 00:13:08,676 --> 00:13:11,516 Speaker 2: you know, stole from her. She does not think that 216 00:13:12,676 --> 00:13:16,116 Speaker 2: her credit card information was misused in any way. And 217 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:22,236 Speaker 2: the reason that's irrelevant distinction is because Santo's did steal 218 00:13:22,516 --> 00:13:25,756 Speaker 2: from some of his donors by charging their credit cards 219 00:13:26,396 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 2: without their consent for large sums of money. 220 00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 4: He did not steal from me. I probably in total, 221 00:13:35,876 --> 00:13:38,876 Speaker 4: besides the and it probably cost me a few thousand 222 00:13:38,956 --> 00:13:42,836 Speaker 4: dollars to give him an event. I probably in addition, 223 00:13:44,276 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 4: maybe it was about six thousand dollars. 224 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:48,916 Speaker 2: I've seen Newsday did like a review of federal election data, 225 00:13:48,956 --> 00:13:50,836 Speaker 2: and I think they pegged you at like seven thousand. 226 00:13:51,156 --> 00:13:53,596 Speaker 4: Well maybe some you know, I don't really keep track 227 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:55,956 Speaker 4: of it. I gave him a check. I think maybe 228 00:13:55,956 --> 00:13:58,676 Speaker 4: one time I gave him a credit card. I don't remember. 229 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 4: I don't I'd have to go through all of my 230 00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 4: right papers again. But it was, you know, nominal, like 231 00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:05,036 Speaker 4: one thousand dollars at a time. 232 00:14:05,716 --> 00:14:07,636 Speaker 2: I have to ask the question, do you know of 233 00:14:07,716 --> 00:14:12,516 Speaker 2: anyone who attended a fundraiser at your house may have 234 00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:13,836 Speaker 2: had their credit card information? 235 00:14:14,156 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 4: I don't know for a fact any of that. 236 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:22,076 Speaker 2: So to be clear, Kathy does not know if anyone 237 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:26,116 Speaker 2: in her orbit that she had at the fundraiser was 238 00:14:26,236 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 2: part of this credit card fraud scheme, whether they were 239 00:14:29,916 --> 00:14:33,116 Speaker 2: targets for that. But I can say that the indictment 240 00:14:33,516 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 2: lays out some other examples in detail, and Santos goes 241 00:14:40,596 --> 00:14:45,196 Speaker 2: on a spending spree with his donor's credit cards. More 242 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:46,836 Speaker 2: on that after the break. 243 00:14:55,716 --> 00:14:59,676 Speaker 3: So credit card fraud, it's a pretty big deal. How 244 00:14:59,756 --> 00:15:01,916 Speaker 3: much are we talking about money wise here? 245 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:06,196 Speaker 2: So there's one example in particular that's laid out in 246 00:15:06,236 --> 00:15:11,156 Speaker 2: the indictment, And to protect this person's ident, it's anonymized, 247 00:15:11,236 --> 00:15:16,236 Speaker 2: so they're only referred to as contributor number twelve. So 248 00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:20,556 Speaker 2: this all begins when contributor number twelve sends their credit 249 00:15:20,556 --> 00:15:25,116 Speaker 2: card info to the Santos campaign and the Santos team 250 00:15:25,276 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 2: charges it for more than they should on that day. 251 00:15:29,956 --> 00:15:32,596 Speaker 2: And this is an issue for two reasons, the first 252 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 2: being that contributor number twelve did not authorize this overcharge, 253 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:42,316 Speaker 2: but also it's over the limit of what's allowed, which 254 00:15:42,836 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty two was twenty nine hundred dollars 255 00:15:47,516 --> 00:15:50,716 Speaker 2: that you could give once for the primary and then 256 00:15:50,956 --> 00:15:52,316 Speaker 2: again in the general election. 257 00:15:52,676 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 3: Okay, so in theory, that's fifty eight hundred for the two. 258 00:15:56,676 --> 00:15:59,676 Speaker 3: Now what's the deal with contributor number twelve? How much 259 00:16:00,076 --> 00:16:01,796 Speaker 3: over was this person charged? 260 00:16:02,636 --> 00:16:07,396 Speaker 2: So Contributor number twelve was charged fifteen thousand, eight hundred dollars, 261 00:16:07,436 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 2: so almost sixteen thousand in contributions, which is ten thousand 262 00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 2: over what is technically allowed. 263 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:21,476 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, is that is that a mistake? You 264 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 3: want to say, like, right, did this happen more than once? 265 00:16:27,596 --> 00:16:28,076 Speaker 1: It did? 266 00:16:29,316 --> 00:16:35,516 Speaker 2: So Santos and his team attempted over forty thousand dollars 267 00:16:35,556 --> 00:16:38,396 Speaker 2: of contributions from Contributor twelve over the course of a 268 00:16:38,436 --> 00:16:42,756 Speaker 2: few months, so they repeatedly charged his card. And then 269 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:48,716 Speaker 2: we see an even more brazen act when the indictment 270 00:16:48,756 --> 00:16:51,756 Speaker 2: lays out that Santos just started sending money to his 271 00:16:51,796 --> 00:16:58,036 Speaker 2: own personal account directly, again without any authorization from Contributor 272 00:16:58,116 --> 00:17:03,396 Speaker 2: number twelve. So in one case, they used their credit 273 00:17:03,396 --> 00:17:08,356 Speaker 2: card billing information to transfer more than eleven thousand dollars 274 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:10,916 Speaker 2: to Santos's personal bank account. 275 00:17:11,276 --> 00:17:12,956 Speaker 3: He's like a kid in a candy store with no 276 00:17:12,956 --> 00:17:14,276 Speaker 3: one watching, it seems like. 277 00:17:15,236 --> 00:17:17,596 Speaker 2: And this is also the first time in the indictment 278 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:22,916 Speaker 2: we hear about something that prosecutors call company number one. 279 00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:26,436 Speaker 2: At a certain point during the twenty twenty two campaign, 280 00:17:27,476 --> 00:17:31,516 Speaker 2: Santos uses the credit card billing information of Contributor twelve, 281 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:36,956 Speaker 2: charges twelve thousand dollars and it hits the account of 282 00:17:37,116 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 2: Company number one. 283 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:39,956 Speaker 3: What is company number one? 284 00:17:40,636 --> 00:17:44,396 Speaker 2: So the House Ethics Report and other reporting has identified 285 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:50,716 Speaker 2: Company number one as red Stone Strategies. Red Stone Strategies 286 00:17:51,396 --> 00:17:54,636 Speaker 2: is all over this indictment as company number one. 287 00:17:54,676 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 3: And let me guess it was formed just before the election. 288 00:17:58,756 --> 00:18:02,316 Speaker 2: It was formed in November twenty twenty one, so yes, 289 00:18:02,636 --> 00:18:05,356 Speaker 2: around the time that Santos is mounting his campaign for 290 00:18:05,396 --> 00:18:06,516 Speaker 2: the twenty twenty two election. 291 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 1: It was formed in Florida. 292 00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:12,196 Speaker 2: Santos is a major stakeholder of Redstone Strategies gets tried 293 00:18:12,236 --> 00:18:15,276 Speaker 2: to distance himself, but his fingerprints appear to be all 294 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:18,716 Speaker 2: over this company. And so, basically, going back to contributor 295 00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 2: number twelve for a moment, they are charged twelve thousand 296 00:18:21,756 --> 00:18:26,476 Speaker 2: dollars to Redstone Strategies, and then it seems like what 297 00:18:26,596 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 2: prosecutors allegend the indictment is that most of that twelve 298 00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:35,276 Speaker 2: thousand dollars goes from Redstone Strategies directly to Santos's personal 299 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:35,876 Speaker 2: bank account. 300 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 3: Again, okay, so I have a question about contributor number twelve. 301 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 3: How did this person not notice that their credit card 302 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:51,996 Speaker 3: was being charged excessively by tens of thousands of dollars? 303 00:18:52,036 --> 00:18:53,996 Speaker 3: Like at my house when I see like an Amazon 304 00:18:54,116 --> 00:18:57,436 Speaker 3: charge for nine ninety nine that I don't recognize, I'm like, huh, so, 305 00:18:57,516 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 3: what's going on here? 306 00:18:59,356 --> 00:19:01,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. 307 00:19:01,396 --> 00:19:03,956 Speaker 2: I wish I had an answer for you, okay, And 308 00:19:03,996 --> 00:19:06,876 Speaker 2: I should say that there are two other donors who 309 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:09,996 Speaker 2: each made contributions of twenty five one thousand dollars to 310 00:19:10,076 --> 00:19:15,316 Speaker 2: Redstone Strategies. That is a problem for multiple reasons, and 311 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:20,676 Speaker 2: Redstone Strategies was not set up to accept political contributions, 312 00:19:21,396 --> 00:19:24,236 Speaker 2: it was not actually registered with the proper authorities. 313 00:19:24,876 --> 00:19:25,996 Speaker 3: Where does that money go? 314 00:19:26,796 --> 00:19:29,116 Speaker 2: So they were told that money would go to pay 315 00:19:29,196 --> 00:19:34,116 Speaker 2: for advertising, but it looks like that money almost all 316 00:19:34,156 --> 00:19:37,276 Speaker 2: of it, So fifty thousand dollars total went directly to 317 00:19:37,316 --> 00:19:40,836 Speaker 2: Santosi's personal accounts. In the indictment, they say that that 318 00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 2: went to cash withdrawals, personal purchases of luxury designer clothing, 319 00:19:46,436 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 2: credit card payments, a car payment, payments on personal debts. 320 00:19:51,236 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 2: The House report gets even more specific. They claimed that 321 00:19:53,956 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 2: some of that fifty thousand dollars was actually spent at 322 00:19:56,796 --> 00:20:00,556 Speaker 2: or Mez, the fancy designer store, over four thousand dollars. 323 00:20:00,516 --> 00:20:02,956 Speaker 3: Right, which is a legitimate business expense if you're going 324 00:20:02,996 --> 00:20:05,396 Speaker 3: to convinced owners at the Villa Gorilla that you are 325 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:05,756 Speaker 3: the man. 326 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:10,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe he thought that that was just you know, 327 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:13,916 Speaker 2: so much of Santos's campaign was trying to keep up 328 00:20:13,916 --> 00:20:18,676 Speaker 2: appearances and court the Kathyes of the world right and 329 00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:21,796 Speaker 2: show them that he was on their level, and so 330 00:20:21,876 --> 00:20:25,476 Speaker 2: maybe he felt like he needed to engage in this 331 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 2: kind of spending to keep up this persona By the 332 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:33,236 Speaker 2: time that that second indictment is out and the House 333 00:20:33,276 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 2: ethics report has been published. A lot of people are 334 00:20:37,156 --> 00:20:42,036 Speaker 2: just done with George Santos. For at least some Republicans 335 00:20:42,076 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 2: in Congress, they've seen enough, and they have one more 336 00:20:45,716 --> 00:20:51,076 Speaker 2: vote to oust him from Congress. In December of twenty twenty. 337 00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:55,796 Speaker 7: Three, two thirds voting in the affirmative, the resolution is adopted. 338 00:20:55,956 --> 00:20:58,196 Speaker 7: The cheer announces to the House that in light of 339 00:20:58,236 --> 00:21:00,836 Speaker 7: the expulsion of the gentleman from New York, mister Santos, 340 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:03,556 Speaker 7: the whole number of the House is now four hundred 341 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:04,036 Speaker 7: and thirty four. 342 00:21:04,876 --> 00:21:08,516 Speaker 3: Hold up, Amy, So what does this mean for Republicans 343 00:21:08,556 --> 00:21:11,076 Speaker 3: in the House, Like, what's going to happen with Santos's seat? 344 00:21:11,716 --> 00:21:14,516 Speaker 2: So there was actually already a special election held for 345 00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:18,916 Speaker 2: Santos's seat earlier this year and the Democrat won, so 346 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:23,476 Speaker 2: ultimately one less Republican in the House because of all 347 00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:23,756 Speaker 2: of this. 348 00:21:25,636 --> 00:21:27,756 Speaker 4: He was working in his own self interest and he 349 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:32,956 Speaker 4: succeeded bizarrely and becoming a congressman. 350 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:36,196 Speaker 2: You can still hear Kathy trying to make sense out 351 00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 2: of this, figuring out how this happened and who is 352 00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 2: to blame more on that in a minute, I was 353 00:21:57,596 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 2: struck by one thing that Kathy said in particular, towards 354 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:02,076 Speaker 2: the end of our conversation. 355 00:22:02,516 --> 00:22:05,556 Speaker 4: He would never have won as himself, which is another 356 00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:12,396 Speaker 4: commentary on societ. I mean, George none of himself. He's 357 00:22:13,036 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 4: a smart guy. I don't think he went to college, 358 00:22:15,756 --> 00:22:18,996 Speaker 4: but I mean it's I mean, in the future, I 359 00:22:19,036 --> 00:22:22,396 Speaker 4: think that college is going to be passe. And George, 360 00:22:22,436 --> 00:22:24,876 Speaker 4: if he was left to what he could actually do. 361 00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:28,036 Speaker 4: I mean, he's pretty smart and talented, but he didn't 362 00:22:28,036 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 4: have the credentials, so he lied about his credentials, and 363 00:22:31,996 --> 00:22:35,196 Speaker 4: he didn't have the money, so he stalled. Or I 364 00:22:35,236 --> 00:22:38,836 Speaker 4: just shouldn't say he stole. He's accused of stealing to 365 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:46,196 Speaker 4: to you know, it's the old Machiavellian means to an end. 366 00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:51,956 Speaker 3: Well, he never would have won as himself, is what 367 00:22:52,036 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 3: she says. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, if I'm hearing 368 00:22:57,556 --> 00:23:01,156 Speaker 3: her right, she's almost saying like maybe, like at some 369 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:03,276 Speaker 3: point in the future, the things that he needed, like 370 00:23:03,516 --> 00:23:06,036 Speaker 3: going to college, is going to become passe. It's not 371 00:23:06,076 --> 00:23:08,036 Speaker 3: going to be this kind of bar to entry. She's 372 00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:10,996 Speaker 3: kind of seeing future where some of the old benchmarks 373 00:23:10,996 --> 00:23:14,316 Speaker 3: for what makes a good congressman or whatever or not there. 374 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:18,356 Speaker 3: And it's almost like she's saying he was ahead of 375 00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:20,036 Speaker 3: his time and so he just had to lie to 376 00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:23,076 Speaker 3: get around the kind of bars to entry that existed, 377 00:23:23,436 --> 00:23:25,676 Speaker 3: but that he actually was smart enough and charming enough 378 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:30,036 Speaker 3: to that he had those kind of core aspects of 379 00:23:30,036 --> 00:23:31,676 Speaker 3: what it would take, but he just couldn't get in 380 00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 3: because he didn't meet these other thresholds that are we 381 00:23:35,596 --> 00:23:39,236 Speaker 3: still insist upon. I don't know. It's like she's almost 382 00:23:39,276 --> 00:23:40,876 Speaker 3: like sympathetic to him in this moment. 383 00:23:41,756 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 1: Oh, completely. 384 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:46,596 Speaker 2: And I found this fascinating because in this moment she's 385 00:23:46,676 --> 00:23:49,436 Speaker 2: very self aware, I think, and that's what I hear 386 00:23:49,556 --> 00:23:52,956 Speaker 2: is just you know, society wouldn't have accepted him as himself. 387 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 3: It's interesting because she says it's a commentary on society 388 00:23:56,996 --> 00:23:59,836 Speaker 3: that society never would have accepted George for who he was. 389 00:24:00,196 --> 00:24:02,116 Speaker 3: But what she's really saying is I never would have 390 00:24:02,116 --> 00:24:04,556 Speaker 3: accepted George for who he was. I mean she in 391 00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:07,996 Speaker 3: this case, she is the gatekeeper. Yeah, she's the gatekeeper 392 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:13,076 Speaker 3: of this society completely. And I am certain, or I 393 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:16,676 Speaker 3: feel certain, that George Santos understood that deep in his bones. 394 00:24:17,396 --> 00:24:20,836 Speaker 3: And if that is true, I wonder if he held 395 00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:27,276 Speaker 3: a contempt that fueled his ability and his willingness to 396 00:24:27,356 --> 00:24:29,276 Speaker 3: brazenly lie. 397 00:24:29,476 --> 00:24:34,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're still see, so you're still fixated on the 398 00:24:34,156 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 2: why George Santos did this? 399 00:24:36,796 --> 00:24:40,556 Speaker 3: Yeah, in the end, that's the question that I think 400 00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:43,276 Speaker 3: is gonna Yeah, that's the question that stays with me. 401 00:24:43,396 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 3: At least I keep thinking that, like, maybe there's kind 402 00:24:46,556 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 3: of deeper explanations to what he did then maybe at 403 00:24:51,396 --> 00:24:52,116 Speaker 3: first blush it. 404 00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:56,156 Speaker 2: Seems Yeah, Look, I think that it's interesting to parse 405 00:24:56,196 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 2: that out, and we could we could spend the next 406 00:24:58,516 --> 00:25:02,276 Speaker 2: twenty years arguing about the why. But for me, the 407 00:25:02,316 --> 00:25:05,996 Speaker 2: more interesting question is how does something like this happen? 408 00:25:08,036 --> 00:25:11,076 Speaker 2: Because I don't think under standing the psychology of George 409 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:15,396 Speaker 2: Santos is going to prevent the next George Santos. I 410 00:25:15,436 --> 00:25:18,156 Speaker 2: think understanding the forces that put him in this position 411 00:25:18,556 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 2: and allowed him to get away with seemingly so many 412 00:25:23,156 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 2: lies and crimes without consequence for quite some time that 413 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:30,876 Speaker 2: is the bigger issue to be addressing here, And so 414 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:35,116 Speaker 2: how do you prevent that from happening again? I mean, 415 00:25:35,156 --> 00:25:39,236 Speaker 2: it's interesting when Kathy first hears about the New York 416 00:25:39,276 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 2: Times reporting, she's furious, but not even with Santos as 417 00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:48,196 Speaker 2: much as she's angry with the Republican Party in Nasa 418 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 2: County and one guy who is the head of the 419 00:25:50,756 --> 00:25:53,756 Speaker 2: Republican committee named Joe Cairo. 420 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:57,476 Speaker 4: Well, what the hell? What about picking up the goddamn 421 00:25:57,596 --> 00:26:05,676 Speaker 4: telephone and calling Brooke, calling NYU, calling Goldman Sachs. And 422 00:26:05,716 --> 00:26:09,876 Speaker 4: this was not the first campaign, this was the second campaign. 423 00:26:10,436 --> 00:26:13,876 Speaker 4: And so to me, I mean, Joe Cairo should be 424 00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:18,036 Speaker 4: fired out, you know, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, 425 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:21,796 Speaker 4: I am furious with him. I mean, George pulled the 426 00:26:21,796 --> 00:26:25,316 Speaker 4: wool over his eyes. It's like, uh, you know, mister 427 00:26:25,476 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 4: Ripley meets catch me if you can. 428 00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 2: I asked Joe Cairo for comment about this. He conceded 429 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:35,596 Speaker 2: that there were some shortcomings in the vetting process. He 430 00:26:35,676 --> 00:26:39,636 Speaker 2: once told a reporter quote, I guess unfortunately we rely 431 00:26:39,956 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 2: on the person to be truthful to us. But I 432 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:46,996 Speaker 2: will also say that there's no real requirement for these 433 00:26:46,996 --> 00:26:51,676 Speaker 2: committees to vet members of Congress. So it really comes 434 00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 2: down to the parties and journalists and whoever else is 435 00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:59,036 Speaker 2: paying attention to root out problems with these candidates who 436 00:26:59,036 --> 00:27:01,996 Speaker 2: are running for office. And I think that that's what 437 00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:04,596 Speaker 2: this story lays bare, that this is potentially a weak 438 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:06,836 Speaker 2: point in this whole process. 439 00:27:07,596 --> 00:27:10,236 Speaker 3: There are some federal jobs where they do vet people. 440 00:27:10,316 --> 00:27:11,716 Speaker 3: I know, I have a buddy who was a Foreign 441 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:15,236 Speaker 3: Service officer, and they did all kinds of background check 442 00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:17,236 Speaker 3: on him. They even call me. I mean, there's a 443 00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 3: lot of federal government jobs where they vet people, but 444 00:27:20,596 --> 00:27:23,316 Speaker 3: I guess this is not one of them. And it's 445 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:30,796 Speaker 3: interesting because Kathy she's furious at Joe Cairo, the Republican 446 00:27:30,956 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 3: operative who kind of made the introduction, because he didn't 447 00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:36,436 Speaker 3: do this due diligence. And I get that on some level, 448 00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 3: like Kathy's job is to raise the money, it's not 449 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:41,876 Speaker 3: to vet the candidates. So she did her job right, 450 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:44,996 Speaker 3: She opened her house, she called her friends, all this 451 00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:45,516 Speaker 3: and that. 452 00:27:45,676 --> 00:27:47,796 Speaker 2: Right, because I think it goes further than that that 453 00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:51,876 Speaker 2: this was a personal relationship that she had with George Santos. 454 00:27:51,876 --> 00:27:55,196 Speaker 2: So she feels angry with the party for not vetting 455 00:27:55,236 --> 00:27:59,396 Speaker 2: this guy better, while also being sort of shocked that 456 00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:03,196 Speaker 2: she's been lied to so extensively by this person, that 457 00:28:03,236 --> 00:28:05,876 Speaker 2: she trusted, this guy that she let into her world. 458 00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:10,236 Speaker 4: I'd never had anyone lie to me so bald facedly. 459 00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:15,076 Speaker 3: When the scandal breaks, does she hear from George, does 460 00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:18,276 Speaker 3: he like call up to check in or anything. 461 00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:21,876 Speaker 4: George was fishing around to see if I was going 462 00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:23,596 Speaker 4: to be on his side, and I said, I never 463 00:28:23,596 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 4: want to speak to him again. 464 00:28:25,396 --> 00:28:27,236 Speaker 3: Wait, did she tell him that to his face? 465 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:32,036 Speaker 2: Kathy told me that one of Santos's staffers reached out 466 00:28:32,076 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 2: to her to kind of feel her out, but she 467 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:37,396 Speaker 2: says in that moment, I'm done. 468 00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:38,916 Speaker 1: I'm never talking to you again. 469 00:28:39,836 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 2: It was clear to her she could see plainly that 470 00:28:43,716 --> 00:28:46,396 Speaker 2: he had lied to her to her face, and she 471 00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:50,156 Speaker 2: wasn't willing to tolerate that. I think Kathy really feels 472 00:28:50,156 --> 00:28:53,916 Speaker 2: burned twice because she was duped by this guy, but 473 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 2: also because she opened up her doors and her network 474 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 2: and those people were also duped by George Santos, and 475 00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:05,796 Speaker 2: she feels responsible. The moment for Kathy where I think 476 00:29:05,836 --> 00:29:09,636 Speaker 2: this becomes incredibly serious is when the indictment comes down 477 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:11,956 Speaker 2: and she has to relive this all over again. 478 00:29:12,996 --> 00:29:13,236 Speaker 8: Well. 479 00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:18,716 Speaker 4: I was horrified. It was incredulous. I immediately wrote a 480 00:29:18,756 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 4: letter of apology to my friends, saying it was my 481 00:29:23,396 --> 00:29:29,596 Speaker 4: responsibility for not doing my independent due diligence. 482 00:29:30,916 --> 00:29:33,436 Speaker 2: You know, Kathy is clearly not happy with the Republican 483 00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:36,836 Speaker 2: Party in New York. She made that extremely clear in 484 00:29:36,876 --> 00:29:41,596 Speaker 2: our interview, but I think she also feels how a 485 00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:44,356 Speaker 2: lot of people have felt, how did. 486 00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:45,356 Speaker 1: We not see it? 487 00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:50,636 Speaker 2: There are numerous places in this story where you can 488 00:29:50,676 --> 00:29:54,756 Speaker 2: feel like this is a story of the system working, right, 489 00:29:54,796 --> 00:29:58,396 Speaker 2: that you have journalists, and you have watchdog groups, and 490 00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:02,596 Speaker 2: you have investigators both within the House and within the 491 00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:06,236 Speaker 2: Department of Justice that all do their jobs. And that's 492 00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:08,356 Speaker 2: why we know as much as we know at this 493 00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:12,436 Speaker 2: point about Santos and the extent of his schemes. Right, 494 00:30:14,636 --> 00:30:17,596 Speaker 2: I'm still stuck on the question of how did this 495 00:30:17,876 --> 00:30:20,356 Speaker 2: go on for so long undetected? 496 00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:22,436 Speaker 3: I mean, because like, look, and this is not to 497 00:30:22,476 --> 00:30:26,196 Speaker 3: diminish this is not to take away from any of 498 00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:29,836 Speaker 3: the investigations that went on, But at the end of 499 00:30:29,876 --> 00:30:36,396 Speaker 3: the day, the unraveling of this occurs by doing some 500 00:30:36,636 --> 00:30:41,756 Speaker 3: very simple things. Calling up Baroke College and saying, hey, 501 00:30:41,996 --> 00:30:45,156 Speaker 3: did this guy go here? Calling up Goldman Sachs and 502 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:48,956 Speaker 3: saying did this guy work here? Or looking at his 503 00:30:48,996 --> 00:30:53,596 Speaker 3: campaign finance records online which are publicly available. Right, all 504 00:30:53,596 --> 00:30:57,956 Speaker 3: of which is to say, this isn't Watergate, this isn't 505 00:30:58,116 --> 00:31:01,276 Speaker 3: deep throat where there's like some guy in a bench 506 00:31:01,636 --> 00:31:05,836 Speaker 3: who's like revealing some secrets that otherwise would be totally inaccessible. 507 00:31:06,876 --> 00:31:10,956 Speaker 3: This is information that is relative accessible and just for 508 00:31:11,036 --> 00:31:15,476 Speaker 3: whatever reason, folks had not been picking up the phone 509 00:31:15,916 --> 00:31:17,996 Speaker 3: and looking over the reports. And I'm not pointing a 510 00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:20,236 Speaker 3: finger to anyone saying, oh, anyone fell out there, but 511 00:31:20,276 --> 00:31:23,716 Speaker 3: I'm just I'm just noting that that's that's the thing 512 00:31:23,756 --> 00:31:27,196 Speaker 3: that's so striking about this story. It's not that the 513 00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:32,356 Speaker 3: information was inaccessible or contained by one impossible to access source. 514 00:31:33,156 --> 00:31:36,196 Speaker 3: It was just that no one bothered to pick up 515 00:31:36,196 --> 00:31:40,156 Speaker 3: the phone. And that's kind of crazy. 516 00:31:40,276 --> 00:31:44,996 Speaker 2: So, and this might surprise you, because it was surprising 517 00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:50,956 Speaker 2: to me. Someone did pick up the phone his own campaign, 518 00:31:52,036 --> 00:31:54,196 Speaker 2: and a report was commissioned. 519 00:31:54,396 --> 00:31:58,516 Speaker 3: Wait and when WHOA sorry, this is crazy? Who commissioned this? 520 00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:02,556 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, the Santos campaign commissioned a vulnerability 521 00:32:02,596 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 2: report on their candidate. It's quite common in politics these days. Yeah, 522 00:32:07,956 --> 00:32:10,236 Speaker 2: you know, you would do opposition research where you're trying 523 00:32:10,236 --> 00:32:13,276 Speaker 2: to learn about the other candidate, but there's also what 524 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,396 Speaker 2: they call a vulnerability study or a vulnerability report, which 525 00:32:16,436 --> 00:32:20,516 Speaker 2: is how can I best prepare for attacks that my 526 00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 2: opponent might work, and so the report costs nearly seventeen 527 00:32:25,796 --> 00:32:31,876 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. The results come back and they find a 528 00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:33,916 Speaker 2: lot of the same things that had been laid out 529 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:35,516 Speaker 2: that would later come to light in the New York 530 00:32:35,516 --> 00:32:39,676 Speaker 2: Times report, what like that he had faced multiple evictions 531 00:32:40,036 --> 00:32:42,236 Speaker 2: and that there was no record of his college degrees. 532 00:32:42,316 --> 00:32:45,276 Speaker 2: So again, like a lot of the things that we 533 00:32:45,916 --> 00:32:49,476 Speaker 2: the public would learn about in December of twenty twenty 534 00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 2: two were known to his campaign over a year prior. 535 00:32:53,716 --> 00:32:57,236 Speaker 2: There's reporting to indicate that members of his team left 536 00:32:57,356 --> 00:33:01,516 Speaker 2: after that report came through, and Santos maintained to his 537 00:33:01,556 --> 00:33:04,836 Speaker 2: team at that time that he had diplomas that he 538 00:33:04,876 --> 00:33:08,996 Speaker 2: could show them. It's the same familiar Santo's refrain of 539 00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:12,356 Speaker 2: I have answers, I have receipts, but that never materializes. 540 00:33:13,356 --> 00:33:16,036 Speaker 2: And so you know, throughout this story there are so 541 00:33:16,156 --> 00:33:19,716 Speaker 2: many moments of when this whole thing could have collapsed. Yeah, 542 00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:23,516 Speaker 2: because there were people who knew and walked away and 543 00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:26,836 Speaker 2: washed their hands of it and for whatever reason did 544 00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:29,116 Speaker 2: not come forward to out this guy. 545 00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:30,796 Speaker 3: I mean, if you thought, I mean, and now I 546 00:33:30,876 --> 00:33:34,476 Speaker 3: understand why Kathy gets so mad for not vetting him. Also, 547 00:33:34,516 --> 00:33:38,396 Speaker 3: seventeen thousand dollars, Amy does we should have said call 548 00:33:38,516 --> 00:33:41,076 Speaker 3: out to listeners. We hear deep Cover will do it 549 00:33:40,756 --> 00:33:42,556 Speaker 3: for one quarter of that price. 550 00:33:42,796 --> 00:33:45,916 Speaker 1: We will call Beroke College for a fraction of that. 551 00:33:46,356 --> 00:33:48,396 Speaker 3: Give me five hundred bucks, and I will call all 552 00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:50,396 Speaker 3: the places the guy claimed to work and tell you 553 00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:52,116 Speaker 3: if that's not true, and you'll have it back in 554 00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:52,876 Speaker 3: six hours. 555 00:33:52,956 --> 00:33:54,956 Speaker 2: I know, I really want to talk to somebody who 556 00:33:55,036 --> 00:33:55,916 Speaker 2: worked on that report. 557 00:33:55,956 --> 00:33:57,196 Speaker 1: So these are still like I still have. 558 00:33:57,236 --> 00:34:00,636 Speaker 2: Questions here, right, Yeah, I mean I was really hoping 559 00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:02,836 Speaker 2: that this would go to trial so we could air 560 00:34:02,876 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 2: out all of the specifics, like who is contributed number twelve? 561 00:34:06,716 --> 00:34:09,316 Speaker 1: Right, I don't know that I'll get an answer to that. 562 00:34:10,116 --> 00:34:13,996 Speaker 3: I'm wondering. You said you talked to Kathy after this. 563 00:34:15,116 --> 00:34:18,996 Speaker 3: What's her feeling because she said she was expecting to testify, 564 00:34:19,196 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 3: So how does she feel about how did she feel 565 00:34:21,276 --> 00:34:22,156 Speaker 3: about the plea? 566 00:34:22,716 --> 00:34:22,996 Speaker 1: Yeah? 567 00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:27,396 Speaker 2: So, actually wasn't sure if Kathy was going to speak 568 00:34:27,396 --> 00:34:28,916 Speaker 2: with me again, but I got her on the phone 569 00:34:28,916 --> 00:34:29,436 Speaker 2: this morning. 570 00:34:30,836 --> 00:34:34,956 Speaker 8: It was good news for me that George pleaded guilty 571 00:34:35,316 --> 00:34:37,996 Speaker 8: on Monday, because now I don't. 572 00:34:37,796 --> 00:34:39,556 Speaker 4: Have to go and testify. 573 00:34:40,476 --> 00:34:43,956 Speaker 8: Good thing that George went ahead and wasn't so arrogant 574 00:34:44,076 --> 00:34:48,116 Speaker 8: as to continue this and that at least he's passing 575 00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:53,676 Speaker 8: up and you know, hopefully he will serve his sentence, 576 00:34:54,396 --> 00:34:57,836 Speaker 8: be repentant, and hopefully he'll learn his lesson and will 577 00:34:57,876 --> 00:34:59,516 Speaker 8: stop lying to eating and feeling. 578 00:35:00,876 --> 00:35:02,756 Speaker 2: If he apologized to you, would you forgive him? 579 00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:04,476 Speaker 8: Not now? 580 00:35:05,596 --> 00:35:06,116 Speaker 4: Not now? 581 00:35:07,436 --> 00:35:10,516 Speaker 8: You know you don't again you we believe him until 582 00:35:10,636 --> 00:35:15,276 Speaker 8: it's like you want to see what he actually does. 583 00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:23,716 Speaker 3: This series was produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid, Izzy Carter 584 00:35:23,876 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 3: and Joey fish Ground. Our editor is Karen shakergi Our 585 00:35:27,916 --> 00:35:33,716 Speaker 3: executive producer is Jacob Smith. Mastering by Jake Gorsky, fact 586 00:35:33,796 --> 00:35:37,196 Speaker 3: checking by Anica Robbins. Our show art was designed by 587 00:35:37,196 --> 00:35:40,716 Speaker 3: Sean Carney. Music in this series is from Luis Gara 588 00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:45,676 Speaker 3: Jake Gorsky An Epidemic Sound Special thanks to Sarah Nix, 589 00:35:45,916 --> 00:35:51,196 Speaker 3: Eric Sandler, Sarah Bruger, Carrie Brody, Jake Flanagan, Lydia Gene Kott, 590 00:35:51,476 --> 00:35:55,996 Speaker 3: Jordan McMillan, Ben Nat f Haffrey, Kira Posey, Owen Miller, 591 00:35:56,196 --> 00:36:00,996 Speaker 3: Christina Sullivan, Sophie Crane, Fara Day Grunge and Greta Cohen. 592 00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:06,236 Speaker 3: Additional thanks to Switch and Board Studio, Janelle Forsyth, Britta Glanis, 593 00:36:06,876 --> 00:36:10,996 Speaker 3: Jason McQuaid and Karen Gaine. I'm Jake Halpern