Speaker 1: Today. It's a great honor to chat with the legendary
Speaker 1: Paul Wong on the podcast. Doctor Wong is Professor Emeritus
Speaker 1: of Trent University. He is a Fellow of APA and
Speaker 1: CPA and President of the International Network on Personal Meaning
Speaker 1: and the Meeting Centered Counseling Institute, Inc. Editor of the
Speaker 1: International Journal of Existential Positive Psychology. He has also edited
Speaker 1: two influential volumes on the human quest for Meaning. A
Speaker 1: prolific writer, he is one of the most cited existential
Speaker 1: and positive psychologists, the originator of Meaning Therapy and International
Speaker 1: Meaning Conferences. He has been invited to give keynotes and
Speaker 1: meeting therapy workshops worldwide. Doctor Wang is the recipient of
Speaker 1: the Carl Rogers Award from the Society for Humanistic Psychology.
Speaker 1: Doctor Wang, what an honor it is to chat with
Speaker 1: you today, me too. Where should we even begin? You know,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I was looking through all of your papers,
Speaker 1: going all the way back, trying to trace the development
Speaker 1: of your research and thinking, going on the way back
Speaker 1: to your work with Rats Wow in the seventies. In
Speaker 1: the seventies, the effect of food deprivation and imprinting on
Speaker 1: the behavior of young domestic chicks. I think that might
Speaker 1: have been one of your first papers nineteen seventy one
Speaker 1: more no, my, my where to help people with that?
Speaker 1: That was wow sixties. Yeah, I worked with rash first. Wow.
Speaker 1: So actually all my research at the same scene, m
Speaker 1: scene the same is how can animals or human beings
Speaker 1: survive and schrife in deprivation in average concation. That would
Speaker 1: be my scene this' that's why I come myself with
Speaker 1: a central part of psychologists because life is hard, live
Speaker 1: is hard for all animals. So I fell up the fishes.
Speaker 1: You are now strong or eaten? Eat or eating? So
Speaker 1: that has been my my, my question. How can we
Speaker 1: how can we s live strife in the face of threat, obstacles, danger,
Speaker 1: So that is not just a philosophical question because while
Speaker 1: the born Japan, Japan, you wed the China, you know,
Speaker 1: we're growing up with with the window tape with paper
Speaker 1: strips mhm. So that would not be shattered. And at
Speaker 1: night we used to little oil land and cannot turn
Speaker 1: the light. Going with four years old to Japan with
Speaker 1: Germanese soldiers with guns came to a house, want to
Speaker 1: take over the house so we could all move out.
Speaker 1: So I was shipped to All children were shipped different families.
Speaker 1: So I was shipped to a removed relative. They put
Speaker 1: me in the basement for lights and darkness, and I
Speaker 1: was very nice there, you know, was with my whole
Speaker 1: body being on by bucks. So therefore you and then
Speaker 1: we escaped to Hong Kong est So that's why I said, well,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of the process that calls about life
Speaker 1: in your true and part of the territories I think
Speaker 1: on me to have moved my life is a narrative territory.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. What So where were you born? Well, let's
Speaker 1: back up a second. Where were you born? In what year?
Speaker 1: Mans is nineteenth? Studies seven in Tangi wow, wow wowow.
Speaker 1: And so where did you Where did you go to college?
Speaker 1: I went to I went to the college in Calgne University, Okay.
Speaker 1: I came in Canada to study a Calgary A Calgary, yeah,
Speaker 1: Colgne University, okay, in Canada, in Ottawa. Yeah. And then
Speaker 1: you up for my period yeah okay. And then at
Speaker 1: what point did you get interested in psychology? I would
Speaker 1: you know? I was? It's a college one when there's
Speaker 1: a kid, No, I don't. I always wondered white people
Speaker 1: losing that way? Why people say that you know us? Yes,
Speaker 1: ob Now what happened to me in my currents? Die?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? Who look after me? And what happen why
Speaker 1: I die? So I was wrestling with usual death was
Speaker 1: eight and nine years old? Wow? Wow, I was born
Speaker 1: a sat philosopher. Yeah, so you were. Were you interested
Speaker 1: in the existential philosophers? Yeah? Yeah, of course I read
Speaker 1: all it, you know, in my teens, I read all
Speaker 1: right to him books. Yeah. Yeah. And it's what's really
Speaker 1: interesting about you is that you really you predate the
Speaker 1: field of positive psychology by quite a bit. I mean
Speaker 1: you were I was looking back you. You came up
Speaker 1: with a well the perceived well Being scale in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty four, the year Michael Jackson won the Grammy I
Speaker 1: want one. I think one of the first questions tell
Speaker 1: me about that. I did their land story with with
Speaker 1: me and and the and Marty. Okay, we actually started
Speaker 1: about the same time. See, when he was doing research
Speaker 1: and helplessness, I was doing research both with with animals.
Speaker 1: I was doing research with learning optimism, learn the courage. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: So I wrote to him, I said, Mary, I say,
Speaker 1: I I don't think that animals can become helpless so readily,
Speaker 1: because if they become helpless up to some exposure to
Speaker 1: non contingent plantations do not have survived. I say, you
Speaker 1: an your dot, I've got really been reduced to the
Speaker 1: helpless stay thing consternation, I said, I you understand the
Speaker 1: street dogs. They will not be so easily redue to helplessness.
Speaker 1: We lit on this will show that that's right. A
Speaker 1: wild dog would not be become helpless so soon. And
Speaker 1: also I say that your human beings, as opposed to
Speaker 1: I feel new contingent enforcement become helpless. Still it no,
Speaker 1: but I can graduate to become helpless. That is artifact.
Speaker 1: So I will see my career man, but as damn
Speaker 1: myself here will say I'm not helpless. I'm just still
Speaker 1: it to waste my time. I notice hosing is ripped.
Speaker 1: There's something to me that as helplessness. So I oh
Speaker 1: research you know with animals the human to put Marty
Speaker 1: is wrong and his his partner Steep mayor agree with me. Amazing.
Speaker 1: This is so you contacted Marty in the eighties. In
Speaker 1: the sixties you said, you said email, So I don't
Speaker 1: think email existed then, but you wrote him letters. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, so uh step may I like my work.
Speaker 1: See who did Steep Mayor? Yeah, Steve Mayor. Yeah, Marty's
Speaker 1: collaborating me and collaborator on the Wow. He's a teacher
Speaker 1: of of Chris Chris Peterson. Yes, yes, of course may
Speaker 1: with Frank. So he was serving on the on the
Speaker 1: National Institute of Mentor I am h committee, So why
Speaker 1: from me to take over? And I am aged about
Speaker 1: about about logical behapule signed panel. So and also he
Speaker 1: came to my conference where I met your where I
Speaker 1: met your mentor Robert Sternberg. Know yet what year was that?
Speaker 1: What year was that conference? I was way back, you know,
Speaker 1: there was anyway, So see me, I came to my conference,
Speaker 1: came to my simposium. Uh helplessness, uh doing interpretational helplessness.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so because I had to agree with Martie
Speaker 1: so well, puties are great because we're doing findings right.
Speaker 1: So for some reason it God of marriage me. I
Speaker 1: don't know what he what Citian he got married me.
Speaker 1: He got mad, He got mad of you for for
Speaker 1: doing what exactly because the questioning he said, But then
Speaker 1: he ended up creating a whole field based on But
Speaker 1: then he created a whole field based on it. Yes,
Speaker 1: I've started my animal research that you know. I actually
Speaker 1: talked with Skinner. Skinner, yes, Skinner, Yeah, I actually christ
Speaker 1: monuments game. I have learned to a team, so I said,
Speaker 1: I said, I talked to Skin. I said, Skinner, you
Speaker 1: know you open conditioning is it's the first level, the
Speaker 1: higher level of open conditioning, because animals can learn us
Speaker 1: the girlfriend the first level. So I took a data
Speaker 1: scar agree with me, but he died it on so
Speaker 1: so this decision, he might be increable on culatuity. So
Speaker 1: I want to teach rise rooms. The one rule is
Speaker 1: the creativity you know was I invented a two par
Speaker 1: skin about so the God reinforcement only when they learned
Speaker 1: to alternate lift right, life right, they're gonna freshman part.
Speaker 1: They had an alternate. They learned the rule of alternation.
Speaker 1: God enforced only one day, press two hair to left.
Speaker 1: I think with them, I teach the right how they
Speaker 1: count either. Also, it is interesting, so I do it
Speaker 1: rem sleep right with red with color Smith. It's a
Speaker 1: sleep researcher. This is very interesting. Why do you teach
Speaker 1: the animals simple learning? Uh? Them sleep? You know we
Speaker 1: know that. But for animal creativity that you're doing game.
Speaker 1: There's some rest, canoe run, there's there's stupid rest. Some
Speaker 1: rats will never learn a while. That's amazing. Well, I
Speaker 1: wonder if that's the case with humans as well. Luck
Speaker 1: clear at alternate you know they fixed it and went far.
Speaker 1: They have to switch firing under gaving enforcement. So you
Speaker 1: should we find that there a few animals who were
Speaker 1: able to learn. They show a huge ramp sleep people
Speaker 1: next day they got it. The restaurant show that showed
Speaker 1: a huge jump in ram sleep never learn. So if
Speaker 1: somehow that their brain that little rap branding side, you
Speaker 1: know the rule there, so they're able to learn a
Speaker 1: higher holder thing. I see ye, all there able to
Speaker 1: teach animal to learn pressure bar that can increase the
Speaker 1: efficiency of enforcement anaba the higher holder. The skinner never
Speaker 1: got studied at that's amazing. When did you do those studies?
Speaker 1: Was that early on in your career? That was in
Speaker 1: the in the sixties in the late sixties. Wow? Wow.
Speaker 1: And also I also challenge roter I challenged everybody the
Speaker 1: locus of control guy, the locus of control guy. Well,
Speaker 1: I said, rat, you're all wrong it. Also, you really
Speaker 1: stir the pot there, doctor Long, I said, you're all right.
Speaker 1: I said that you force people to choose in I
Speaker 1: turned out, Now the world don't operate that way, as
Speaker 1: say I said. Chinese guys are posting internal and external
Speaker 1: same time. See we look hid internal, or we do
Speaker 1: credit for teachers, for parents, or I'm able to succeed
Speaker 1: because my teacher is very good when my parents apartment studied.
Speaker 1: So we're able to do So that I understand why
Speaker 1: Chinese people they didn't have to figure it out how
Speaker 1: good they cannot measure. They cannot measure the true picture
Speaker 1: to the four temperatures either one. So I developed internal
Speaker 1: eternal as two independent dimensions. So behold, the Chinese guys
Speaker 1: are both high in internal and external dimensions. So I
Speaker 1: said that should be applied to all the research that
Speaker 1: most variables are not are not two values on the
Speaker 1: same dimensions, you know, type lal independent dimensions. So that
Speaker 1: is so that can change trying the whole feel about measurement.
Speaker 1: You're on your two independent dimensions, then you're a lot.
Speaker 1: Must make creativity a lot of the maximum cottony possibility,
Speaker 1: right yeah, uh hm, lid are after me? Uh uh.
Speaker 1: The guy in in Michigan with the Chinese that the
Speaker 1: pant and they say all Chinese people are more factable connectively.
Speaker 1: They see things, you know differently. I found it a
Speaker 1: long time ago. If they never see I'm based in Canada,
Speaker 1: they would pay attention to my research. So that's why
Speaker 1: you invited me. I said, well, that's too many for
Speaker 1: me to share my ideas. People don't pick Canada seriously,
Speaker 1: they don't. They don't. Then't take Canada serious. Everything in America,
Speaker 1: right I do. My best friend lives in Canada. Oh there,
Speaker 1: you are different. That's why you you you you invited me.
Speaker 1: They are grateful to you. Right, Okay, there's a lot
Speaker 1: a lot going on here right now, a lot a
Speaker 1: lot that you're talking about. Well, I'm doing everything trying
Speaker 1: to find out what they Yeah. So so my thinkings
Speaker 1: were different from people in the West because of my
Speaker 1: training is different. Right in Chinese? You know who I'm
Speaker 1: the kid my parents pictures taught me. You've got to
Speaker 1: work harder. Heard the top people work the harder. Okay, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then shines saying that you will do it and
Speaker 1: your suffering in a young age, you're never sure saying life.
Speaker 1: So that idea in greening my mind. You do work
Speaker 1: and do suffering and do work hard. You're never a
Speaker 1: month to anything. Mm hm. So that's quiet. I see
Speaker 1: that now. Not American people want to easy life. They
Speaker 1: can easy easily with so sacrifice with stufffraing. You know,
Speaker 1: I said, oh, that's not real life. So now and
Speaker 1: damn it, people can realize now life is difficult with
Speaker 1: the pandemically lockdown people look not I employed bankrop that's
Speaker 1: just sick. So now it goes into a reality. The
Speaker 1: love is hard, So I say, love it hard. Do
Speaker 1: you know that those part psychologists say I'm accientific, I'm
Speaker 1: too pessimistic at I criticized for years by polypsychologists. Well,
Speaker 1: this is why you're an existential positive psychologist. I think
Speaker 1: you may be the only existential positive psychologist on the planet.
Speaker 1: The epistential people treat psychology, I know, I know, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to unite all these all these different factions,
Speaker 1: and I mean, why not just call yourself a humanistic
Speaker 1: an existential humanistic psychologist. That's what I That's what I am.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Yeah, it is easy. So you Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're amazing because you call yourself human psychologists, and yet
Speaker 1: the past of psychology people imprecious, but the rest humanity psychologies,
Speaker 1: the plot with them, it's a shame. It's a real shame.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to change that. Yeah, because Kirk Schneider, Yes,
Speaker 1: Churs Knight and I trying to set up a special
Speaker 1: issue of American psychologists and have a dialogue with Marty,
Speaker 1: and the channel said, hey, I do them. It never
Speaker 1: comes to fruition. They will not, so it'd be nice
Speaker 1: to have a dialogue. They do build a dialogue. I
Speaker 1: don't know why. Definitely believes in dialogue. Hits. Yeah, great,
Speaker 1: but the anyway is never configuration. Yeah. So uh even
Speaker 1: now I write to parts of colored people like this
Speaker 1: district were a great uh uh this guy uh Duckworth,
Speaker 1: the Chinese angel Worth Yeah uh, I told her, I said, yeah, Chinese, Chinese,
Speaker 1: don't think about that. Great like that. You you know
Speaker 1: that you're complete your courage. I had true groups of courage.
Speaker 1: It's just passion, persistence with the compaction. Well courage, you
Speaker 1: don't mean the basest scene. It's more fortitude, more and
Speaker 1: more for you to do the right thing. And also
Speaker 1: brief it. You know, I'm going to put my life
Speaker 1: on the line. I may to risk my life, not
Speaker 1: your persistent but sacrifice. So you you missed out courage,
Speaker 1: You missed out as a face to believe in something.
Speaker 1: She know? She never reply at least how good is it?
Speaker 1: Older than you or you? Because my daughter if I
Speaker 1: thought you something right her students talk to me that was,
Speaker 1: but she don't reply me and just not did not
Speaker 1: good research her? Well, she's very busy. She's a very
Speaker 1: busy human. It was, and for the science for science,
Speaker 1: the stick of science. You another senior researcher over family
Speaker 1: discuss with you? Am I sure that you're passionate about
Speaker 1: at least you should discuss he ignore me? I love
Speaker 1: her those times? Sorry who was that? Who are you
Speaker 1: talking about? Uhh and oh I'm sorry you said he?
Speaker 1: So I was confused. Do you mean she? Yeah? She, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's it's okay. Yeah. So yeah. I hear. I hear
Speaker 1: your frustration. I hear that you are frustrated. In twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: you wrote an article called the Unheard Cry of a
Speaker 1: Successful Asian Psychologist. That was the title of your article.
Speaker 1: What is what is the unheard cry? Exactly? If you could,
Speaker 1: uh give you the microphone right now? What is what
Speaker 1: exactly is it is so not only people to know
Speaker 1: what I mean, the real real famous people like Skinner
Speaker 1: and the h they'll talk on me. But but for
Speaker 1: some reason, the parts of all these people, this this
Speaker 1: tribal mentality is yeah, they do want to talk to
Speaker 1: people who who questions? There the simplicity not to me.
Speaker 1: I got aize one time, but I have type of
Speaker 1: grant for the temper ten from a conference. One reviewer
Speaker 1: with positicology that suffering has nothing to do with proschology,
Speaker 1: reject my plant. That's it's unfortunate. But I fought back.
Speaker 1: I say, suddenly, I'm gonta do with poscology. Suffering is
Speaker 1: the basic positology. So I wanted to taste I become
Speaker 1: a minute. Okay, but I'm saying that at every turn
Speaker 1: I thought this party colored people slightly. I'm reject me
Speaker 1: eleven right, consider continuing every every step of the way.
Speaker 1: They're rejecting, rejecting, rejecting. Well, let's let's talk about your research,
Speaker 1: because let's let's focus on the positive. Let's not focus
Speaker 1: on your suffering. No, I'm joking, that's a joke. But
Speaker 1: let's let's talk a little bit about you know what's
Speaker 1: awesome about your research. You've tried to create something called
Speaker 1: PP two point zero Positive Psychology two point zero, And
Speaker 1: I just want to read a quote of yours. You said, PP.
Speaker 1: Two point zero is concerned with how to bring out
Speaker 1: the best in individuals and society through dialectical principles of
Speaker 1: yin and yang in spite and because of the dark
Speaker 1: side of human existence. Now look, I love it. I
Speaker 1: mean I discovered your work through a textbook that I
Speaker 1: was reading to prepare for my positive psychology course I
Speaker 1: was teaching at pen There was an introductor to Positive
Speaker 1: Psychology textbook where you were featured heavily in it. So,
Speaker 1: first of all, the whole field's not against you, just
Speaker 1: so you know. I mean, you were in this whole textbook.
Speaker 1: You were featured, you know, and I really liked your work.
Speaker 1: I really liked your work when I saw that. So
Speaker 1: if you could just elaborate a little bit on PP.
Speaker 1: Two point oho, that'd be great. Okay, I've been seeing
Speaker 1: a gang again, but nobody listen. So I'm saying that
Speaker 1: it's impossible to have physical health without have the virus
Speaker 1: and control. We know that now, right, I don't know
Speaker 1: how how healthy you are. Usually are immune. No, you
Speaker 1: know everybody and get sick. Okay, so get physically healthy.
Speaker 1: You need to have humanization. You need to prove protective
Speaker 1: body against injury, against coxagens. The same logic applied to
Speaker 1: mental health. You have parts of mental healths or happiness.
Speaker 1: You have to protect the mind against trauma charlcoal trauma,
Speaker 1: I guess, save relationships against toxic positivity again, toxic emotions.
Speaker 1: So therefore MHM partly psychologists one serials said that just
Speaker 1: focus on simply focus on the party's I'm realistic. No,
Speaker 1: I'm realistic. It's harmful because I was in clients. I'm
Speaker 1: miserable because they won't happiness but they can't get it
Speaker 1: the miserable. Yes, so this just single, single minded, focused
Speaker 1: and postivity. Actually pray people who are frustrated. What you press,
Speaker 1: We're anxious. True positivity tea. It's a light shining in
Speaker 1: the darkness. True possibility must take into that count the
Speaker 1: mystery impact in the world, the condition, the work, conditions,
Speaker 1: power table, climate change, as well as the dark side.
Speaker 1: That's quite why I wrote that paper. I said, Wow,
Speaker 1: this dark side, life side, the great research. Oh it started.
Speaker 1: It's from Penn State, I said, Oh, I said, Martina
Speaker 1: must be Marty must be a hypher reverse experience. A
Speaker 1: lot of this can of research. That is the dark
Speaker 1: side light sign. So I always tell people it can't
Speaker 1: be happy if you do hard get along with your
Speaker 1: dog twin. Everybody ego say that again. Everybody has an
Speaker 1: evil twin an evil what what twins? Twins? Twins get
Speaker 1: two sides? Then the two sides twins? Oh twins? Do
Speaker 1: you think? Do you think everyone has an evil side
Speaker 1: to them? Though? Like evil is a pretty strong word.
Speaker 1: Oh dark side, dark side, dark side, Yeah, yeah, your
Speaker 1: right side and dark side. You have the golden golden shadow,
Speaker 1: your dark shadow. Yes, So so that's what I'm excited
Speaker 1: about your I don't want said I wish that. I
Speaker 1: wish that scart was both, but that brother not starting
Speaker 1: them acceparate with separate colors, but somehow to see how
Speaker 1: how they how how different people treat these two uh,
Speaker 1: these two parts of them differently? Those people able to
Speaker 1: transcend and integrate, Yes, they had a mental health. Better
Speaker 1: have mental health than people who fighting, who said divide
Speaker 1: theirself prioritized minds, why within themselves? Those guys denying the
Speaker 1: dark side will have worse life. So I said, I said,
Speaker 1: oh I wish, I wish God will go to the
Speaker 1: next step. You know, yeah, true. Uh, the second wave
Speaker 1: possicology ask for a complete different, riskless strategy. That is,
Speaker 1: for us gay any passive available or do any possible influvention,
Speaker 1: you have to factor in a coherent a quarian of
Speaker 1: the dark side as the central side. So that would
Speaker 1: give you a better picture, because I study past emotional
Speaker 1: net emotion. But the issue is separately, there's the hiddest
Speaker 1: question and proper quession. Do you want one too? The
Speaker 1: dark side and the fry side. The two sides are EASi.
Speaker 1: It's it at the tape of our work is typical
Speaker 1: algebra sitting low days, actings, and the motivation saying that
Speaker 1: the net achieved when it's equal to approach miners avaridance.
Speaker 1: So I say, actinta, you're wrong, because who's right, who's right?
Speaker 1: In the field? What he is wrong? I said, you know,
Speaker 1: the best, the best lawyer, the best scientists, because they
Speaker 1: do want to be failed. Do that be hard? So
Speaker 1: so in that case, if they're able to have a
Speaker 1: passive approach adapted approach to feel failure mhm. They were
Speaker 1: able to turn awardance into doublely hard work to avoid
Speaker 1: that to make sure the one's going to have it
Speaker 1: and us the motivate inter state. So if you UH
Speaker 1: a a person who can corporate and natural part and
Speaker 1: transform it will be stronger and happier and more achieving
Speaker 1: than your only focus on on the part of that
Speaker 1: is that my whole part I'm saying that you can achieve.
Speaker 1: You can be more creative, more was seeding, more purishing
Speaker 1: if you docture in the dark side looking for you
Speaker 1: just just melogic right, that would uh has lots of
Speaker 1: energy there? What is? Can you define the dark side
Speaker 1: for me? What? What? How do I know? What's in
Speaker 1: my dark side? Come on? You know your I know agree?
Speaker 1: The extractlishness, sistic, the manipulation, trying to use people an instrument, work,
Speaker 1: work inter people as people, you manuply use people and
Speaker 1: sat path sale part you went to fever one you
Speaker 1: describe anybody on your way to get a hat. The
Speaker 1: compoleter plantations, none of them mascycle paths. They are they
Speaker 1: are equating people but misguided ad level talk about their
Speaker 1: misguided votivations misguide their lifestyle. M hm. So that's why
Speaker 1: possible to come zero means that you recognize that everything
Speaker 1: is downside and upside you. Your dark side has an
Speaker 1: outside has done your dock side are very creative energy.
Speaker 1: The crucial energy come from your dark side and your
Speaker 1: dark side, so you do a world of dark side.
Speaker 1: They're not member your writer. The dogs had all resial
Speaker 1: ideas and how to the kunal mind. The mind is
Speaker 1: very smart mind saying how can I get the most
Speaker 1: from this guy? A scam scam scam artists. They were
Speaker 1: smart people, you know, all the scam artists, the palms
Speaker 1: on scheme, the okhom schemes become a elevel creative story
Speaker 1: to take your money. So there's the dock side. You
Speaker 1: know you were able to hill with your dark side.
Speaker 1: I want them to help you to do bustands. You're full.
Speaker 1: I had that want to focus on project. There's some
Speaker 1: wologic but never losing me. Well, I would push back
Speaker 1: on the thing that no one's listening to you, because
Speaker 1: there is there are there are a number of psychologists
Speaker 1: who are interested in this what what you call the
Speaker 1: second wave of positive psychology. There was a book, I
Speaker 1: think a book came out a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: on the second wave of positive psychology, and they you know,
Speaker 1: we're lauding you, lauding you, and uh yeah, my friends
Speaker 1: Tim low Mark exactly. I think that the old car
Speaker 1: you know, the the original group, you know, like a
Speaker 1: three years ago, those guys, the monk mentality, you know,
Speaker 1: they think that we're I'm challenging their the empire did
Speaker 1: the environment and the younger guys. This filled let me so,
Speaker 1: Marchia series doesn't work with my students. You know, this
Speaker 1: isn't doesn't unreally, Yes, printing the years, uh, she's a prosperity.
Speaker 1: But now we have nine eleven and now we have pandemics.
Speaker 1: I mean the march Is have old stop now you
Speaker 1: know it's a printing here of course change before you
Speaker 1: have the patriots. Now we have five g iPhone the
Speaker 1: world a change. So what I'm trying to understand is this,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of similarizing differences between your approach and
Speaker 1: and my and my and you know, posit psychology one point,
Speaker 1: as you would call it, so you've chosen virtue meaning
Speaker 1: resilience and well being is the core tenets of of
Speaker 1: of of posit psychology. Two point Oh is that right?
Speaker 1: That they're my old day? I become more I've become
Speaker 1: more h more complicated enough, But anyway, so on every
Speaker 1: single issue, well given assumptions, is the assumption that true possibility,
Speaker 1: true positivity, you could existentious darkness. H Also, you cannot
Speaker 1: look at the world through the binary is the all
Speaker 1: mentality that's been silly? Mm hm. That said, because even
Speaker 1: mine is big enough to be able to hold two
Speaker 1: ideas in two hands, well both and you know, like
Speaker 1: emotional options and biggers. Because you were hard big enough
Speaker 1: to hold emotions, your mind should be big enough to
Speaker 1: consider both views, both ideas by certain over, I'm true,
Speaker 1: we're inviting shadd by binary to let's think about that,
Speaker 1: the dark side and bright side both the contribution the
Speaker 1: thing to that to enterprise. Okay, oh boy, that would
Speaker 1: make you much more creative, more not petic. So the
Speaker 1: whole idea is that like quantum to attend them quantum
Speaker 1: quantum thinking, I can't both a lie in that quantum
Speaker 1: computer is a binary people cross the thinking system thinking.
Speaker 1: Uh So, the whole idea is that, well, our brains
Speaker 1: should be big enough to feel content, to feel comfortable
Speaker 1: to holding two opposing ideas and feel comfortable. Yeah, both
Speaker 1: as a dover. That will dialogue. Oh, internal dialogue, the
Speaker 1: internal dialogue between your your heart, your mind, the internal
Speaker 1: dialogue between your soul and your body. So so that's
Speaker 1: how we grow. We grow through navigating a balance in
Speaker 1: compact system. Yes, is this is this your dual this
Speaker 1: is your dual system model of the good life that
Speaker 1: you're describing. Yeah, yeah, you know. I mean you Chinese
Speaker 1: that you are right, okay, one side one side, you're
Speaker 1: in travel. So so the taking part of that that
Speaker 1: I don't agree. Then you have to look at things
Speaker 1: because when you look at things, when your heartpa not
Speaker 1: to hold full emotions all the pure, isn't you you
Speaker 1: let women and man open the love hate together? Now?
Speaker 1: Uh the teacher's student relationship of optionally love hate, So
Speaker 1: relationship emotion all pins that co two complimentary but opposite sides. Agreed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now he is pin difference. So we talk about you've
Speaker 1: got to involve in the that part your sister in
Speaker 1: the desertion is that to a self, it's not good
Speaker 1: psychology in the sixties your self, so psychology, so psychology
Speaker 1: only take you so far because by my friend dave
Speaker 1: back and say it's not an agency. They're also communion community.
Speaker 1: But also talk about the visuality tape because behind it
Speaker 1: to agency and communion the spirituality, it's a triparthic tripod
Speaker 1: ri voble. The religious approach to human being is that
Speaker 1: him being has put as a spiritual dimension. And more importantly,
Speaker 1: we are not isolated indi vidios closing skins. We're all
Speaker 1: part of a human network. And now so therefore a
Speaker 1: psychology is some difulese I as the agent, as the
Speaker 1: self contained, the patient individual. That would result to what
Speaker 1: the guy called the years ago American psychologist called, uh,
Speaker 1: the empty self. The empty self occur. It's because it's
Speaker 1: my focus themselves and ignore the community social values that
Speaker 1: I was so interested Uh, community value of community, a neighborhood,
Speaker 1: and spiritual value. Sometimes you know that Jordan people think
Speaker 1: call about religious instincts. I mean I caught that spiritual
Speaker 1: instinct you study culture. I said that, well, there said
Speaker 1: that they know God, they create God because in this
Speaker 1: horrible world, because survive with our God. So I thought,
Speaker 1: none of my clients there from China, they don't believe God.
Speaker 1: I say, I try you, I say to help you
Speaker 1: with all the taculty techniques. I know you can't be
Speaker 1: that addiction. You better, you better ask God to help you.
Speaker 1: I said, you guys, pray I lived as a god
Speaker 1: because currently speaking I travel say yes, yes, still can
Speaker 1: a book that book the addiction or just have you
Speaker 1: better have it? And sorry I can't help you anymore.
Speaker 1: M hmm. I want to pray for you. You know,
Speaker 1: prove yourself this question. I don't believe in God. That's
Speaker 1: that's gay. So a play isn't happen, A prayson't not happen?
Speaker 1: Wow it bro, that's magic. I said, Now I can
Speaker 1: help you. So therefore, when people discard spracial values to
Speaker 1: your creaking values, the whole Western civilization is in danger.
Speaker 1: There are no match to the least in civilization. The discipline,
Speaker 1: hard work, the creativity is the Western civilization is no mess,
Speaker 1: no mass to the issue civilization without. What makes how
Speaker 1: strong is to do Christian value of a sign, intrinsic
Speaker 1: value to individal life. Every individual matters. But that is
Speaker 1: that is the biggest contribution, and also the Western value
Speaker 1: importance of about run greace, to fear forgiveness, forgiveness, to
Speaker 1: be feer, that's a big one. Forgiveness. With self forgiveness
Speaker 1: and no relationship, Okay, it's also a negative positive Guala say,
Speaker 1: with self forgiveness, there's no not part of about the
Speaker 1: mandainity innership. You have to the past, see you everything.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying that you know in a person
Speaker 1: for you knows about to flourish. We have to factor in.
Speaker 1: That's the agency. But community mm hm, we have to
Speaker 1: so I have experience. I've been doing meet up group
Speaker 1: you know, trying to get tray quick community for years,
Speaker 1: the real estate community and speciality. This world is the
Speaker 1: universe is full of wonders and mysteries. Will you know
Speaker 1: what that matter is? Which you know what that hole is?
Speaker 1: We can know what time? What can power make all
Speaker 1: the galaxies all the start move into They're all but
Speaker 1: elderly who know the hire Jum saying the young was
Speaker 1: thinking collect God or call and costume you call it.
Speaker 1: So when you're in trouble, the idea that as there's
Speaker 1: unknown superpower temple by health, it's such a consolation you
Speaker 1: have such hope. That's why I said, try to try
Speaker 1: to optimism. It's based on faith. Then all since failed
Speaker 1: you are a minor bury three three miles and the cround. Oh,
Speaker 1: you are floating in the ocean full sharks. You need
Speaker 1: to rub a boat. You better pray, man, you better pray.
Speaker 1: Nobody can help you. That's why I'm saying, you can't
Speaker 1: go through life without God. It's yeah, man, I wasn't
Speaker 1: expecting a sermon, so let me ask you about me.
Speaker 1: I just sort of my last question for today because
Speaker 1: it's we're coming up on the hour. But I wanted
Speaker 1: I really think during this time, a lot of people
Speaker 1: feel a great lack of meaning, and you're You're really
Speaker 1: the guy to talk to about this. You know, you're
Speaker 1: the person that talked about this. You created a meaning. Uh.
Speaker 1: Therapy is that right? A meaning centered form of therapy
Speaker 1: that was based on Victor Franco's work. Is that right?
Speaker 1: Integrative meaning therapy? Right? Usually puvot hum to ank me today?
Speaker 1: What I mean? I said, do my life meaning? You ahead? Mhm?
Speaker 1: Still that life's a good? Are you able to feel? Gosh?
Speaker 1: You're able to learn? And everybody unique single language here
Speaker 1: meaning is to love life, learning, ruling, barning, food or process.
Speaker 1: That the logical that every person is on earth, they
Speaker 1: can learn and grow and bear fruit. That's meaning that
Speaker 1: meaning number one, Yes, you know everybody can meaning being
Speaker 1: alive do that. I agree, I agree, it's called I
Speaker 1: love the idea of existential gratitude. No no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no, yeah yeah oh not yet, not yet, Okay,
Speaker 1: too soon, this first lesson, I tell him share with them.
Speaker 1: But today you're able to I mean many people are shick,
Speaker 1: many people can walk. Now you're able to walk along,
Speaker 1: You're able to learn sens Wow, what a privilege, What
Speaker 1: a privilege? Sbout that if you you will have a
Speaker 1: just stimple let itself is a miracle that you are.
Speaker 1: You're part of the miracle that you know. Life is
Speaker 1: social meaning. The second thing the stand say you're alive. No,
Speaker 1: not only you're able to create that'n call that creation value.
Speaker 1: H that the Brits marvelous machine. You can't the little
Speaker 1: kids throughout that picture. You will create music, create art.
Speaker 1: My little and that little sim is restent tape, able
Speaker 1: to create things the computer. That's amazing. Creativity is meaning
Speaker 1: the creative with your life, with ever, that is so
Speaker 1: much joy, It's so much richness. Creative meaning yes, like
Speaker 1: yourself meaning creative meaning yeallo yellow. You know ya, you
Speaker 1: don't say that our love is love is horrible, so painful, painful,
Speaker 1: But creativity. You're able to creation with your life. That is,
Speaker 1: he said, if he wishes he had my face, but
Speaker 1: he couldn't be santipious, thinking he cannot believe in God.
Speaker 1: He had married, life has faced. But I said, but
Speaker 1: you have creativity, so we we we sho go around
Speaker 1: all that. But anyway, the creativity, but most you don't
Speaker 1: want to can crazy, but you're able to safer and
Speaker 1: appreciate all the beauties around you. Look the sun sets, sunrise,
Speaker 1: and the leaves shint color over season. I smell the
Speaker 1: fresh air, and little children play and live in the
Speaker 1: beautiful music. Wow, we're living in a wonderful world. Yes,
Speaker 1: you do. More time we're able to put their hands
Speaker 1: against and over the shadow that way making plaint games
Speaker 1: that there's someone seemed to enjoy cont depressed as a
Speaker 1: shame on you, shame you. You know how to appreciate
Speaker 1: all the thing You are ready hat the mindfulness have
Speaker 1: all over your eyes to say, look there there the
Speaker 1: lots of wonders around the world. Love is beautiful, you
Speaker 1: garpe can, It's beautiful. Mhm. The artists can make it
Speaker 1: a beautiful painting. Suffering can be beautiful. Is that what
Speaker 1: you're saying? Stopp being beautiful? Because it's cool to be sad.
Speaker 1: It's cruel to be sad. It is cool to be said,
Speaker 1: that's cool, it's cool. It's cool. Started. I'm a stapil
Speaker 1: for better than a happy pick, I said long before,
Speaker 1: I'm reaching your life with depths and happy pick this shallow. No,
Speaker 1: we're going to be shallow. You put a meaningful life
Speaker 1: in a deep life. See it in a way to
Speaker 1: look at it, meaningful life. Don't don't. Don't go for
Speaker 1: a shallow life. You drink and be married. That's a
Speaker 1: shallow life. Be a staff. Join my club? Do you
Speaker 1: say tribe? Do you say join my tribe? Is that
Speaker 1: what you said? It's join my cloud to be sad.
Speaker 1: Say it again, join join my clouds, join my crop,
Speaker 1: jo my club. Yeah, yeah, so I really like, I
Speaker 1: really like that idea of depths of meaning. You know,
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty seven paper you wrote, uh with your colleague, Yeah,
Speaker 1: depths of me. But let me continue a subtle meaning
Speaker 1: that the creativity and experiential Okay, now longer day the
Speaker 1: defining attitude. That means courage if you if you can't
Speaker 1: let's say you come to in camp. You can't work,
Speaker 1: you can't enjoy scene, but at least you're there to
Speaker 1: rebel against your faith. Yes, yes, you can hume my body,
Speaker 1: but I cannot describe my soul. Okay, I will walk
Speaker 1: into my gest chamber with pray my heart. When someone
Speaker 1: lips I die with dignity. I choose to die with dignity.
Speaker 1: With what on your lips? A son? I live, pray,
Speaker 1: preecing God, praise, praising, praising, I lived with him. You
Speaker 1: hire my might in my prayer, in my heart, I
Speaker 1: praise the Lord, the preas the Lord. So I'm saying
Speaker 1: that he said that, and the all Elexander All. Alexander
Speaker 1: Sailier said that a human being a job to repel,
Speaker 1: rebel against fate, rebel against against all the deterministic forces,
Speaker 1: to repel against all the determining forces. You feel free
Speaker 1: have a human being that you fight him against, against
Speaker 1: the dark forces. Your alive. So therefore you enjoy. That's
Speaker 1: why Cisurface must be happy when he defied the gods.
Speaker 1: Poof to thank you, I wrote down you all, I
Speaker 1: will continue to to enjoy nice, stronger, stronger, strong, I
Speaker 1: don't know, over and die. Yeah, define it's happiness. Wow,
Speaker 1: doctor Wong, please don't change, don't change. I have to
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the podcast today,
Speaker 1: but I also want you to know that I appreciate you.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't ignore you. So I appreciate you too.
Speaker 1: You have you have the mass slow Jr. I love it. Well.
Speaker 1: I just really real honor having all my podcast today. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're on the same page. We work hard, threw together
Speaker 1: all the sane, well human beings exactly. Yeah. So to
Speaker 1: those labels, do y labels? Do you y? I agree? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I don't much comes out your pop psychology. I'm
Speaker 1: dealing with your extential issues, but also the post I
Speaker 1: believe in a better future. Do not believe the piven change? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that's I think, very much in line with
Speaker 1: the humanistic psychologists. And they're they're they're they were deeply
Speaker 1: influenced by the existential phosphors. Okay, so to you again, Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you, doctor Waference see at the conference. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to react, in some way to something you heard.
Speaker 1: I encourage you to join in the discussion at the
Speaker 1: Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also,
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Speaker 1: join us at patreon dot com slash psych Podcast. Thanks
Speaker 1: for being such a great supporter of the show, and
Speaker 1: tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity.