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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: changes and transitions about twenties and what they mean for

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Speaker 1: our psychology. Great another week, another episode. This week the

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Speaker 1: people have spoken and what they want to hear it

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Speaker 1: is drum will please. The psychology of cheating, So buckle

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Speaker 1: and friends, because I don't think this is an easy

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Speaker 1: or light topic like last week's. We are talking about dishonesty,

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Speaker 1: on faithfulness and hurt that occurs in our most precious relationships.

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Speaker 1: And if you've been cheated on, if you haven't, hope

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Speaker 1: you still kind of find something interesting about this. I've

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Speaker 1: kind of brought in a lot of different theories. This

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Speaker 1: one is actually really interesting to research. We've got theories

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Speaker 1: from biological psychology, behavioral psychology, personality psychology, social psychology. So

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Speaker 1: it's a bit of a doozy. Additionally, if you hear

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Speaker 1: some rockers in the background, it's Christmas season and for

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Speaker 1: those who know me, I live across the road from

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Speaker 1: a pub, so everyone's parting. Actually Bill Shorton there the

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Speaker 1: other day, so Bill Shorton's getting in on the Christmas spirit.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, there might be some noise filtering in doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: We're here to learn. So yeah, the psychology of cheating.

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Speaker 1: So I had the statistic on this podcast I was

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Speaker 1: listening to the other day. Fifty percent of relationships will

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Speaker 1: involve an act of infidelity. And I think we hear

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Speaker 1: about cheating a lot in our twenties as an explanation

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Speaker 1: for why people have broken up or why you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: date someone. Oh you know, you know he cheating on

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Speaker 1: their last partner, like he's a scumbag, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So let's deep dive into why. Why does this occur?

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Speaker 1: Are people who cheat bad? Bad people? Is the phrase

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Speaker 1: wants a cheat, always a cheater? Correct? I think it's

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Speaker 1: time to investigate. So cheating for those who have experienced

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Speaker 1: this is pretty terrible. I think it's a lot like

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Speaker 1: a big trope in movies and songs, pop culture, folklore.

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Speaker 1: We see it all around as we see it quite

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Speaker 1: often up for discussion, and I feel like it's quite ubiquitous.

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Speaker 1: But for people in those situations, I think nothing about

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Speaker 1: it feels like something someone else could understand or rationalize.

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Speaker 1: To you. It's one of those experiences that is common.

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Speaker 1: I would say, what we fifty percent of people or

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Speaker 1: fifty percent of relationships, but really isolating and unique in

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Speaker 1: how emotionally destructive and undermining it can be. And I

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Speaker 1: think the emotional aftermath is much like the stages of grief,

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Speaker 1: the shock, denial, anger, but hopefully the acceptance obviously pending

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Speaker 1: maybe some long term into personal damage. I think something

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Speaker 1: that is really interesting when we talk about cheating is

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Speaker 1: that people have different conceptions of it. Often we think

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Speaker 1: of cheating as like a physical act, but cheating isn't

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Speaker 1: just sex. It can also be emotional disclosure. And I

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Speaker 1: think we have this idea of cheating as a physical

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Speaker 1: act or sexual intimacy, and that's actually not probably I

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Speaker 1: would say the most important area of our romantic relationships.

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Speaker 1: Sex is just one part, but it's the emotional closeness

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Speaker 1: that sex kind of comes along with its just a

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Speaker 1: natural expression of that. So I think the thing that

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Speaker 1: we also need to talk about whilst we be talking

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Speaker 1: about physical cheating is emotional cheating, and that can kind

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Speaker 1: of look like secretive, sustained closeness with someone who's not

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Speaker 1: your primary partner, and in some ways I can imagine

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Speaker 1: that it's worse. Sex without emotion is not uncommon, but

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Speaker 1: a deep, at times non sexual emotional intimacy can mean

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Speaker 1: so much more and possibly undermines the relationship more than

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Speaker 1: a mere physical act. And I think the reason why

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Speaker 1: we react to physical cheating is firstly the absolutely affront

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Speaker 1: to notions like loyalty and trust and honesty that we

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Speaker 1: want in our romantic relationships. But also it's the idea

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Speaker 1: that sex could lead to more. It could leave to

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Speaker 1: someone leaving, It could lead to your relationship breaking down,

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Speaker 1: and that emotional intimacy between you and your partner kind

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Speaker 1: of crumbling. Interestingly fun fact, but not that fun. Men

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Speaker 1: tend to get more upset about physical infidelity, whilst women

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Speaker 1: are more concerned with cheating that is associated with intense

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Speaker 1: emotional disclosure, and some psychologists have suggested that this stems

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Speaker 1: from the primitive reason behind why we take partners or

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Speaker 1: accept monogamy to begin with. So men want to ensure

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Speaker 1: monogamy so that they know their offspring are actually theirs

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Speaker 1: for genetic purposes, whilst women, you know, biologically this is

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Speaker 1: a genetic evolutionary argument. But women they want a partner

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Speaker 1: or a mate who will be loyal and stick around

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Speaker 1: and provide support. And I think with most evolutionary explanations,

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Speaker 1: this does tend to be a bit outdated and doesn't

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Speaker 1: really keep up with how we understand gender roles in

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Speaker 1: reproduction and makeship nowadays. But it's still an interesting theory

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Speaker 1: from kind of an evolutionary area of psychology. I think

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Speaker 1: with emotional cheating, we do have to be careful about

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Speaker 1: calling any type of emotional attachment to someone isn't your

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Speaker 1: primary partner a form of cheating. I think it's really

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Speaker 1: important to have people who aren't your partner you can

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Speaker 1: share things with and that have that level of openness.

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Speaker 1: But it's about boundaries. You know, if your partner is

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Speaker 1: spending hours alone with someone having deep, meaningful philosophical conversations

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Speaker 1: about death and your parents divorce, that might upset you,

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Speaker 1: but it might not upset someone else. It's all about

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Speaker 1: what you expect from that person and how you have

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Speaker 1: defined the emotional boundaries of your relationship. But I can

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Speaker 1: see why that would be very frustrating and upsetting and

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Speaker 1: worth communicating about them in a healthy way. Obviously, always

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Speaker 1: using eye language as is an idea in therapy, So

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Speaker 1: let's talk about why people cheat. This is really interesting

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Speaker 1: from a psychological perspective. There are obviously many reasons why

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Speaker 1: people cheat, but according to this woman, Kelly Campbell, she

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Speaker 1: is I think an associate or a professor of psychology

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Speaker 1: at CSU, they usually fall into three categories. So the

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Speaker 1: reasons people might cheat might be individual, based on the relationship,

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Speaker 1: or situational. So when we talk about individual reasons, these

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Speaker 1: often have something to do with a person's personality, which

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Speaker 1: may make them more likely to cheat. So this is

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Speaker 1: often fact as like your personality, traits, your beliefs, your religion.

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Speaker 1: For example, someone who is narcissistic is more likely to cheat.

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Speaker 1: There was this big study of four thousand people and

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Speaker 1: they asked them about their sexual history, did a bunch

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Speaker 1: of personality tests and assessments, and they found this that

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Speaker 1: narcissism more likely to cheat. Side note, I did a

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Speaker 1: whole episode on this if you want to know how

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Speaker 1: to identify these narcissistic people and steer clear of them

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Speaker 1: in your dating life. But a quick summary, A narcissist

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Speaker 1: can't naturally feel empathy and often uses people as means

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Speaker 1: to an ends. So maybe that's their partner or the

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Speaker 1: person they're cheating with, so they may be more prone

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Speaker 1: to not being able to consider or even care about

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Speaker 1: the consequences of their sexual infidelity. I think it's often

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Speaker 1: worth noting that it would be sexual infidelity more often

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Speaker 1: than not, because emotional cheating would probably be verily rare

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Speaker 1: for a narcissist and someone who can't relate to other

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Speaker 1: people on an effective and emotional level. Another individual factor

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Speaker 1: is people with attachment, commitment, or self esteem issues. They

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Speaker 1: also seem to be more likely to cheat, as this

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen study I was talking about has suggested, so

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Speaker 1: wanting a boost to self esteem can motivate infidelity. Having

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Speaker 1: sex with a new person, getting to know a new

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Speaker 1: person can lead to really positive internal feelings. You might

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Speaker 1: feel empowered, attractive, confident, or successful, and these feelings all

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Speaker 1: kind of build up your self esteem when you may

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Speaker 1: not have had much previously. People who have a hard

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Speaker 1: time with commitment may also be more likely to cheat

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Speaker 1: in some cases. I think also importantly, because commitment it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's possible for two people in a relationship to have

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Speaker 1: very different ideas about the relationship status, such as whether

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Speaker 1: it's casual, exclusive, and so on. I think it's also

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Speaker 1: possible to really like someone and still fear making a

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Speaker 1: commitment to them, and in this case, one partner might

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Speaker 1: end up cheating as a way of avoiding commitment, even

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Speaker 1: if they would naturally prefer to stay in that relationship.

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Speaker 1: So this was the type of cheating. The reason people

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Speaker 1: cheat is from an individual perspective, and the second type

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Speaker 1: of cheating is due to relationship issues rather than something

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Speaker 1: internally about the person who's been cheating. It's about the

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Speaker 1: state of things between you as a pair, the state

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Speaker 1: of your relationship. Researchers have found time and time again

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Speaker 1: the partnerships that are characterized by dissatisfaction, unfulfilling sex, and

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Speaker 1: high conflict, they're often at a higher risk for infidelity. Also,

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Speaker 1: the more dissimilar partners are in terms of personality and

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Speaker 1: education level and things in common, the more likely they

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Speaker 1: are to experience infidelity. If there are unmet needs, or

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Speaker 1: this glimmering euphoria of falling in love is no longer

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Speaker 1: kind of sustaining your bond, cheating may become more likely

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Speaker 1: because the rush and intensity of endorphins and dopamine from

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Speaker 1: you as a partner is fading for that other person,

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Speaker 1: but still you don't have to cheat in these situations.

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Speaker 1: If you don't love someone anymore, you can always break

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Speaker 1: up with them or discuss an open relationship instead of

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Speaker 1: betraying your partner's trust in you or loyalty in the

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Speaker 1: monogamy of your relationship. I think that's something I always say, like,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to cheat on someone, why don't you

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Speaker 1: just break up with them? I think that's something a

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Speaker 1: lot of us think, like, why don't you just break

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Speaker 1: up with them? And this kind of leads to the

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Speaker 1: third reason people cheat, which is situational reasons. Sometimes people

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Speaker 1: aren't going out there looking for someone else to validate them,

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Speaker 1: looking for sex, looking for emotional disclosure, So situational reasons.

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Speaker 1: This refers to someone who cheats, but they don't have

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Speaker 1: a personality that's prone to cheating. Your relationship is fine,

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Speaker 1: but something about their environment puts them at a risk

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Speaker 1: for infidelity. So, like, consider this scenario. You're really frustrated

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Speaker 1: with the recent distance in your relationship. Maybe you're doing

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Speaker 1: longer stance and you're dealing with feelings of low self

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Speaker 1: estiement and your appearance, and one day, like a coworker

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Speaker 1: or someone at UNI becomes really friendly with you, and

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Speaker 1: catches you alone and says something like I'm really attracted

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Speaker 1: to you, like, let's get together sometime. You might not

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Speaker 1: choose to cheat if only one or two factors were involved. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, if it was just the situation, but this

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Speaker 1: combination of motivating factors, you know, the distance in your relationship,

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Speaker 1: which is a relationship issue, your feelings about your appearance

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Speaker 1: self esteem a personal individual issue, and that situational factor,

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Speaker 1: the attention of your coworker, can make infidelity more likely.

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Speaker 1: So which reason is the worst? I guess maybe that's

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Speaker 1: a question we want to ask, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: we're really here to pass judgment on that. I think

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Speaker 1: the emotional outcome is all the same, especially in our

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Speaker 1: twenties when many of your relationships are highly formative. A

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Speaker 1: relationship in which you've been cheated on can have many

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Speaker 1: second order consequences on your ability to trust in the

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Speaker 1: future and your own perceptions of commitment, which I think

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Speaker 1: is why it's so important to kind of chat about

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Speaker 1: how it's probably not your fault and don't cheat on

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Speaker 1: your partners. Maybe that's something that needs to be said.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully we all are on the same page there, But

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Speaker 1: there is another idea that we can apply to cheating

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Speaker 1: specifically why people cheat. That I found really fascinating and

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Speaker 1: it comes up a lot in psychology around relationships and

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Speaker 1: sex and things like that. And it's called the triangular

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Speaker 1: theory of love. So the triangular theory of love suggests

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Speaker 1: that love can be understood in terms of three components

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Speaker 1: that together can be kind of viewed as forming the

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Speaker 1: vertices of a triangle. So if you put put your

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Speaker 1: hands up in a triangle, I'll explain. So on one

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Speaker 1: side we've got intimacy, the next side we have passion,

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Speaker 1: and the final side we have decision and commitment. This

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Speaker 1: is what creates a good relationship. But when one of

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Speaker 1: these sides fails, for example, intimacy or you no longer

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Speaker 1: feel that passion for someone, or things like conflict and

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Speaker 1: cheating piers the harmony of the triangle, that's when the

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Speaker 1: relationship is probably going to fail and we might see

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Speaker 1: greater degrees of infidelity. So, talking again about this amazing

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Speaker 1: psychologist Kelly Campbell, there are a myriad of reasons that

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Speaker 1: people cheat, but she's really quick to point out in

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Speaker 1: this article that she wrote that it shouldn't actually be demonized.

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Speaker 1: She makes this point, we don't know if humans are

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Speaker 1: even meant to be monogamous. It's just that some people

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Speaker 1: are naturally more in line with those views and others

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Speaker 1: are not. So that's kind of the age old question

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Speaker 1: does cheating make you a bad person? And our natural

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Speaker 1: instinct might be to say, yes, of course it does.

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't cheat on someone you love when you have

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Speaker 1: a bond with someone, when you have agreed on exclusivity,

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Speaker 1: Not honoring that and hurting the other person is pretty terrible.

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Speaker 1: But like everything, there's a lot of gray area, and

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Speaker 1: I think in some ways there's gray area about whether

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Speaker 1: if you've cheated before that makes you a cheater for life,

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Speaker 1: or whether cheating on someone is forgivable. Do we kind

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Speaker 1: of allow people to make mistakes in relationships if we

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Speaker 1: can call cheating that? And something else is like what

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Speaker 1: constitutes cheating? And another huge question when really loading them

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Speaker 1: off on you is is the evil that we kind

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Speaker 1: of assign to cheating purely cultural because of the institution

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Speaker 1: of monogamy that's been created by property riots and the

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Speaker 1: church and religion. That's what we're going to discuss next.

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Speaker 1: The phrase once a cheatah, always a cheatah. Might not

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Speaker 1: be true. People can make mistakes, and whether they reoffend

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Speaker 1: our guess or cheat again on the same or a

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Speaker 1: different partner depends on how they rationalize their actions internally

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Speaker 1: and at times unconsciously, And this has a lot to

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Speaker 1: do with the psychology behind cognitive dissonance. So whether you

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Speaker 1: cheat again will depend on how you change your attitude

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Speaker 1: towards commitment or your partner after that first act. So

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Speaker 1: dissonance reduction following a difficult moral decision can cause people

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Speaker 1: to behave either more or less ethically in the future. So,

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Speaker 1: using the cheating example, after you cheat on someone, whether

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Speaker 1: that behavior becomes more or less likely your cheat in

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Speaker 1: the future will differ based on your attitudes and how

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Speaker 1: you attempt to justify your ethical choice. So if you

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Speaker 1: cheat on someone, especially if you get caught, you'll probably

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Speaker 1: feel really terrible. And if you're a good person, a

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Speaker 1: moral person, I guess it will conflict with how we

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Speaker 1: like to see ourselves trustworthy in a relationship, as good

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Speaker 1: as respected, as loyal, So we experience this dissonance between

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Speaker 1: the perception of ourselves and our actions. Cognitive dissonance is

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Speaker 1: the term in psychology, and we're going to try to

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Speaker 1: justify an action by minimizing aspects of the action you

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Speaker 1: have chosen. So that's one way that you get over

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Speaker 1: that dissonance of cheating. You might say, oh, it's not

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Speaker 1: that bad, everyone does it. You minimize the aspects of

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Speaker 1: the action. So someone chooses to justify their actions using

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Speaker 1: this logic, they will probably do it again because they

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Speaker 1: have some form of external justification or validation that is

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Speaker 1: brought on by the reinforcement of the belief that it's

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Speaker 1: not that bad because other people are doing it, because

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Speaker 1: everyone does it, because you know, what do you expect? However,

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Speaker 1: if you abscribe cheating to a personal flour and recognize

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Speaker 1: that that you know that maybe it's because of your

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Speaker 1: self esteem, maybe it's because you know there's tension in

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Speaker 1: your relationship that you might be responsible for, you don't

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Speaker 1: have open communication that external validation is no longer there.

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Speaker 1: If you say to yourself that you've cheated because of

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Speaker 1: situational and internal factors, you can control that behavior and

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Speaker 1: you can see that it was a mistake that you

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Speaker 1: don't want to make again. This is when long lasting

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Speaker 1: change is possible because you've created and you counter belief

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Speaker 1: about yourself that does not include cheating on a partner.

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Speaker 1: You've decided this is not who I am. It was

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Speaker 1: because of a situational factor or because of something I

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Speaker 1: can control, like poor levels of confidence, and I can

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Speaker 1: change that. So this is called self persuasion, and it

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Speaker 1: creates a long lasting attitude change that results from this

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Speaker 1: self justification. So if someone's cheated on you and you've

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Speaker 1: decided to forgive them, firstly, God bless you forgiveness always,

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Speaker 1: but if you're worried about whether they're going to cheat again,

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Speaker 1: it's probably important to talk to them about how they

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Speaker 1: see their now. If they say, oh, you know, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't that bad, I think it's a lot more common

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Speaker 1: than you think. I guess it was just to slip up,

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Speaker 1: they probably will do it again. But if they say, oh,

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Speaker 1: my gosh, it's just not who I am. That was

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Speaker 1: such a mistake. I think it was because of this

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Speaker 1: issue in our relationship that I want to fix. I've

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Speaker 1: decided that, like, this isn't who I want to be.

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Speaker 1: It was because of this, then it's unlikely that they'll

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Speaker 1: do it again. So it really depends on the route

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Speaker 1: a person chooses to take. Do they seek external or

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Speaker 1: internal justification for their actions in order to minimize their guilt.

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Speaker 1: And if that person feels no guilt, well, it might

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Speaker 1: be because the relationship, well, the relationship you're in is

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Speaker 1: with maybe a narcissist or someone with a pretty sinister

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Speaker 1: personality trait that has manifested in infidelity, and you probably

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Speaker 1: shouldn't stay with that person if they've hurt you and

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Speaker 1: they don't feel guilty. Red flag, big red flag, get

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Speaker 1: out of there. I think it is always important, though,

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Speaker 1: to remember that humans make mistakes, and that includes your partner.

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Speaker 1: There is no use, ever, I think, holding your partner

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Speaker 1: to the standard of perfection because you'll kind of always

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Speaker 1: be let down. You've got to love someone for who

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Speaker 1: they are, not who you want them to be. And

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Speaker 1: while infidelity is far from perfection, far I don't think

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Speaker 1: you should always totally write off your partner because they've

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Speaker 1: cheated in the past or they cheated before in your relationship.

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Speaker 1: Obviously this is your call, but like we've said, sometimes

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Speaker 1: cheating can be because of low self esteem, or they

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Speaker 1: might feel as if they need attention from someone outside

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Speaker 1: of the relationship to feel desirable or worthy. I think

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Speaker 1: that kind of makes it seem like it's your fault

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Speaker 1: that you should have been like hyping them up day

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Speaker 1: and day night. But I think it's important to recognize

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Speaker 1: that whilst the cheatah is ultimately at fault, there are

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Speaker 1: things that can drive someone to cheat. So while we

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Speaker 1: are evaluating the mistakes that cheats are making, it's also

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Speaker 1: important to consider the type mistakes that lead people to

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Speaker 1: cheat and whether it maybe you could have done it

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Speaker 1: as well. And if you are in a relationship, you

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Speaker 1: should be sure to kind of encourage your partner and

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Speaker 1: communicate to them that they are good enough and deserving

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Speaker 1: of your love. You know, I think your kind of

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Speaker 1: role is to provide the security in a relationship. But again,

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Speaker 1: not your fault. If someone cheats on you, it's not

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Speaker 1: because you didn't love them enough. That's kind of stupid.

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Speaker 1: But again I think if someone oversteps your boundary or

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Speaker 1: hurts you, like I said, not your fault, I think,

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Speaker 1: And in no way does the philosophy of people make

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Speaker 1: mistakes mean you should just forgive and forget, especially if

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Speaker 1: it's caused lasting damage or you think this person could

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Speaker 1: do it again. I think your peace is probably not

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Speaker 1: worth staying with them, and maybe it will cause you

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Speaker 1: guys to reassess your relationship and communicate better, but that

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Speaker 1: might not always be an option. Now, let's introduce some

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Speaker 1: social psychology into the mix, which is my favorite. So

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Speaker 1: we've looked at by all or evolutionary psychology. We've looked

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Speaker 1: at personality in terms of narcissism, and at behavioral psychology.

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Speaker 1: But what constitutes cheating and why is it that we

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Speaker 1: are so disproving of it? So there are obvious reasons

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Speaker 1: we don't like cheating, because it hurts us and it's

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Speaker 1: awful and it sucks. But is that reaction only because

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Speaker 1: we have been trained to expect monogamy? Is the rejection

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Speaker 1: of cheating behaviors something that is culturally ingrained in us.

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Speaker 1: I also think people have different conceptions of what cheating is,

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Speaker 1: and that's important to set up first. For some, if

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Speaker 1: their partner were to spend time with someone else in

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Speaker 1: a non sexual way, but you know, for a company,

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Speaker 1: that could be you know, something just non sexual, like

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Speaker 1: I said, that could be deemed as cheating, whereas for others,

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Speaker 1: things like kissing or floating might not be a big

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Speaker 1: deal or in context where you know, maybe they go

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Speaker 1: and see strippers or they're making out with a friend

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Speaker 1: or a friend of the same gender. These things may

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Speaker 1: be okay in some relationships and not others. I do

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Speaker 1: have kind of a problem with like guys being like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, my girlfriend like kissed another girl, but it's

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Speaker 1: not cheating, because they kind of like undervalue especially if

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Speaker 1: that woman's bisexual, because they undervalue the sexual urges, Like

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I think it's like a

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Speaker 1: bit problematic to be like, oh, just because it's like

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Speaker 1: between two women, I'm less offended, whereas if it was

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Speaker 1: with a man, because I see women as less of

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Speaker 1: a threat because I don't actually respect my girlfriend's sexuality anyhow,

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Speaker 1: A bit of a segue, But I think that line

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Speaker 1: of what you see is cheating or not is highly subjective,

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Speaker 1: and it's based on what you decide as a couple.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that it's something that you can determine

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Speaker 1: by trial and error, like at all, set those boundaries

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Speaker 1: and make them clear. But kind of that second part

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Speaker 1: we're talking about, is cheating that bad and do our

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Speaker 1: reactions to it only come about because of certain social norms?

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Speaker 1: So it feels like we've spent the past century making

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Speaker 1: a slew of progressive social changes that kind of undermine

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Speaker 1: the sanctity of monogamy. I think it's more open and

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Speaker 1: more common for couples to talk about the nature of

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Speaker 1: their relationship than ever before, and I think we've reached

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Speaker 1: a stage where relationships aren't as black and white as

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Speaker 1: society has perhaps previously expected them to be. This is

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Speaker 1: something really interesting that my friend Carolina, a friend of

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Speaker 1: the show, told me. There's this idea in gender psychology

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Speaker 1: and in gender studies that monogamy arose because of laws

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Speaker 1: around property and the influence of religion. So men wanted

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Speaker 1: to ensure that the offspric they were passing their inheritance

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Speaker 1: onto were actually theirs, and so cheating became more taboo,

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Speaker 1: especially for women, because it would undermine male sexual, emotional, economic,

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Speaker 1: and physical authority. Also, as religious teachings made sex more

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Speaker 1: conservative and wanted it to become more sacred. This restricted

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Speaker 1: sex and intimacy into marriage, and people were shamed for

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Speaker 1: breaking that sanctity of one man, one wife and their

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Speaker 1: kind of marriage. Ben So, I think the cultural humiliation

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Speaker 1: and pressure not to cheat throughout history because of the

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Speaker 1: influence of these institutions and influences, has perhaps created the

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Speaker 1: feelings we have now around cheating. Obviously it still naturally

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel good, but emotions and reactions are, as we know,

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Speaker 1: culturally conditioned in many ways from your parents, from your peers,

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Speaker 1: from the media. And if history had promoted polyamory and

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Speaker 1: multiple sexual partners or no marriage, maybe as a way

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Speaker 1: to increase population and keep greater harmony, and that was

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Speaker 1: our history, maybe these ideas around cheating, which by the way,

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Speaker 1: it still see as pretty fucking apparent, but maybe those

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Speaker 1: ideas around cheating would be less negative in the idea

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Speaker 1: of sleeping with someone else or having emotional intimacy with

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Speaker 1: someone else would be more accepted. I hope that we've

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Speaker 1: enjoyed this kind of quick episode on the psychology of cheating.

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Speaker 1: I think cheating, you know, as hard as it is,

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Speaker 1: is kind of common in our twenties as we're testing

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Speaker 1: out our boundaries and how we communicate with partners and

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Speaker 1: kind of experiencing sex and intimacy and emotional disclosure for

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Speaker 1: the first time. We hear a lot of stories about it.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps you've experienced it, so I hope this kind of

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Speaker 1: shed some light on why it happens, the reasons around

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Speaker 1: why people cheat, but also kind of expresses that I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's ever someone's like the person who's been

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Speaker 1: cheated on's fault. There are so many theories that explain

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Speaker 1: why people are driven to cheat, but so few theories

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Speaker 1: that kind of put that blame on the partner. And

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Speaker 1: I think especially interesting about this is this idea of

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Speaker 1: like that culturally conditioned idea of monogamy, and whether we

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Speaker 1: would see cheating as less bad if history had been different,

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Speaker 1: if we didn't have the influence of property rights or religion.

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Speaker 1: Obviously that's a bit of a fantasy, but just kind

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Speaker 1: of something to think about anyhow. Another episode. I also

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Speaker 1: just want to quickly say I got my Spotify wrapped

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Speaker 1: for my podcast this year and there was just so

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Speaker 1: much love you guys. You've all been listening so much

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Speaker 1: and I really really appreciate it like a lot. I

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Speaker 1: think at one point we were like twenty fourth in

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Speaker 1: the charts in Australia, which is like insane considering I

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Speaker 1: recall this on my phone in my Cambra bedroom. So

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. And if you do like the

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Speaker 1: podcasts and you feel called to support it more, please

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Speaker 1: let write us a review on Apple Podcasts it really

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Speaker 1: helps the community and the show kind of grow, brings

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Speaker 1: more people into, bring new ideas, what they want to discuss,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully they get something out of it like you have.

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Speaker 1: So thanks again for listening. Next week we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the psychology of loneliness another sad one, so I hope

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Speaker 1: we're all ready for that. Zero