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Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are

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Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the

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Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor

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Speaker 1: where you stand with on X. All right, guys, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna start right out with the introductions, right off the bat. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Michael to us, professor at Texas A and M University

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Speaker 1: of Kingsville. So that's how you say that to us?

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Speaker 1: To us? Yeah, got it? Yeah, my computer keeps calling

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Speaker 1: me two weeks, but yeah, it's and Um. I serve

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Speaker 1: as a Caesar Clayburg while if at the the Clever

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Speaker 1: Wilife Research Institute. I've been there since nine is a

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Speaker 1: professor doing cat biology and cat research. Uh cats worldwide.

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Speaker 1: We've done some work in Southeast Asia, some cats, uh,

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Speaker 1: clouded leopards, marbled cats, golden cats, cats you've probably never

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Speaker 1: heard of, and uh and and leopard cats, some other cats. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and you can patriot here. I'm Neil Wilkins. I'm the

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Speaker 1: CEO of the East Foundation, and we're an outfit that's

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Speaker 1: uh about two d seventeen thousand acres of private lands

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Speaker 1: in Texas that has been set aside to serve as

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Speaker 1: an area for research, education, and outreach, mainly for wildlife conservation.

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Speaker 1: And how close because we we first connected, I feel

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Speaker 1: around the fact, I can't remember how it lined up,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it was coincidence that we were going down

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Speaker 1: to the Eteria ranch, I think, so, yeah, you're just

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Speaker 1: happened to be that. Um you guys were located around there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've got one of our ranches of the l Sous ranches, Uh,

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Speaker 1: backs up real close to the ranch. Okay, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: we tried to. I was hoping to range some kind

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Speaker 1: of visit we were down there, but it never worked out.

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Speaker 1: Now uh oh, and also Cal's here on a computer screen.

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Speaker 1: He's gonna have an entirely diminished role as Yes, it's

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Speaker 1: just you know how it goes, Cal. Yes, So I've

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Speaker 1: got to send some bad news to one of the

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Speaker 1: ladies that I worked with. She wanted me to get

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Speaker 1: Cal's autograph, So I'm I'm gonna have to go back

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Speaker 1: and tell her that she's not gonna get it. I

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Speaker 1: think you just provide an address and he'll send it okay. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're also used that E signature thing, Michael, Oh sorry,

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Speaker 1: we also have a common um Jim hethelfinger. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: want to loser that guy is. I agree? Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: was one of our. He barely got out of graduated

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Speaker 1: from our university about years ago. No, he's still are.

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Speaker 1: We're really proud of me. We used to do a thing.

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Speaker 1: We used to do live shows back when people did

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Speaker 1: things with each other, and we would have these trivia contests,

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Speaker 1: like we had these pre shows we do, like these

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Speaker 1: v I P pre shows, and we'd have trivia and

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Speaker 1: one of our favorite trivia questions because it always like

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Speaker 1: really stumped people is we would hit him with I

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Speaker 1: can't remember if it was. I can't remember the numbers now,

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Speaker 1: but it was like name five of the six or

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Speaker 1: named the six wild cat species of the United States

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Speaker 1: of America and a man guests which too, in descending order,

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Speaker 1: were most likely to stump everybody of the cats. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: guess which too, like no one ever got if they

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Speaker 1: if they got one of those two, it was are

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Speaker 1: you talking about North the real end or North America

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Speaker 1: in the present day US. So you would hit people

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Speaker 1: with like name I can't remember how we would phrase it.

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Speaker 1: Let me just think in my head. Real actually Jaggeranni Noslo, Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well yeah, we would do North America. Yeah yeah. If

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Speaker 1: you do North America includes Mexico, you gotta add jaguar

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Speaker 1: and yeah, but you have to have jaguar inn if

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Speaker 1: it's the U S and mar Ga Mark, yeah, Mark,

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Speaker 1: And there was only one record of a mar gat

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Speaker 1: in Texas, and there was in eighteen fifties. See, we're

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Speaker 1: screwing the I feel like we gave people stuff that

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Speaker 1: they didn't deserve. Did they include the house can No,

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Speaker 1: we would, we would point out that. So let me

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Speaker 1: just walk it through to hell with how we asked

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Speaker 1: the question. Let's walk it through links. Everybody knows that

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Speaker 1: not everybody, but a lot of people know there's a

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Speaker 1: there's like one wild cat in Alaska, though I think

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Speaker 1: it's rumored and maybe substantiated that a mountain lion or

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Speaker 1: two has finacaled this way into southeast Alaska. One was

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Speaker 1: found alway on the Mackenzie Delta with its ears frozen

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Speaker 1: off or something like that, so they get around. But

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Speaker 1: you have links mountain lion, bobcat, Yes, Jaguar, Jagger Rundi ocelot,

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Speaker 1: but you're telling me there is another one I don't

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Speaker 1: even know about. It's a it's a baby oslot. It's

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Speaker 1: like half the size of an oslot. It looks almost

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Speaker 1: the same. And we we did, I guess, one of

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Speaker 1: the first studies on them in Mexico and published an

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Speaker 1: article about five years ago in the Sierra tom APIs.

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Speaker 1: It was a population of markets there that there we studied.

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Speaker 1: So it's like a little ten pound wildcat, yeah, eight

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Speaker 1: to ten pounds, bigger eyes than oslots. But everything else

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Speaker 1: is is very similar. Talk walk us, like, what's up

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Speaker 1: with an azl lot? Okay? And why is it no

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Speaker 1: one knows about? No? Why does no one know you

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Speaker 1: have oz lots? Right? And do you think most people

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Speaker 1: understand know what an ass lo it is? Because I'm

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Speaker 1: surprised that I've been working at this thirty five years

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Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm still felling getting the message out.

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Speaker 1: I remember when I was young, reading uh, how to

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Speaker 1: trap books all the time, old how to trap books,

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Speaker 1: and I remember I would always be like, what in

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Speaker 1: the hell because you would see they'd have a section

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Speaker 1: now and then I'm catching and it would have mentioned

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Speaker 1: like an ocelot. Well, I we may have looked at

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Speaker 1: the same trapping book. I had this one book in

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties and then had a chapter on

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Speaker 1: trapping asots. And it's the only one I've ever seen.

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Speaker 1: And I mentioned they're easy to trap, and sure enough

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Speaker 1: they turned out to be pretty easy to trap for me.

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Speaker 1: Just the problem is you have to find out where

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Speaker 1: they are. Once you find out where they are, the

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Speaker 1: easy to trap. Yeah, so it's our people through like

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Speaker 1: what what it is and where it lives? Yea, where

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Speaker 1: it used to live and where it lives. Okay, the

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Speaker 1: asoughts of the forty species of cats the most beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's just a fact. It's uh, that's an objective realityjector reality. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's about an own cat about two ft tall, and

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Speaker 1: the at least the cats in Texas, the United States.

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Speaker 1: The females are eighteen to twenty two pounds and the

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Speaker 1: males of two to twenty five pounds. Um. And they're

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Speaker 1: beautifully striped and and and spots and rosettes. It's really

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Speaker 1: an interesting tangle of of of markings that provide the

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Speaker 1: ultimate camouflage. I think for for a cat, it's like

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it's is it's coat different than the

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Speaker 1: jaguars besides just being a smaller version. Uh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think it's much more complex than the jaguar. Jaguar has

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Speaker 1: the rosettes with a dot in the center of it.

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Speaker 1: Oslots have have spots, uh, rosettes, all kinds of and

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Speaker 1: then and some of the rosettes form chains to where

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Speaker 1: it looks like chains going down the shoulder and down

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Speaker 1: the back it's in. It's such a very difficult animal

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Speaker 1: to try to describe. You can you can't do it.

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Speaker 1: And from one side of the oslot to the other

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Speaker 1: has a different spotting pattern, and each one's like a fingerprint.

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Speaker 1: They're very unique. So it helps us when we use

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Speaker 1: cameras to census of population. We can identify individual loss

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Speaker 1: lots that way. So they how would you describe the

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Speaker 1: general color scheme? Yellow yellowish background with a little bit

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Speaker 1: of whitish underneath, and then um. Like many of the cats,

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Speaker 1: they have two very distinct facial stripes um and then

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Speaker 1: um and then these very distinct black and then the

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Speaker 1: tail is about an eighteen inch tail with black rings

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Speaker 1: around it. And then and that's all very similar to

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Speaker 1: market as well. But the except smaller version for a market. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: um they're an incredible cat. Their distribution goes all the

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Speaker 1: way from northern Argentina to southern United States. They used

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Speaker 1: to occur and there there have been a couple of

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Speaker 1: males identified in Arizona. Never a breeding population Arizona, but

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Speaker 1: they've always been a breeding population in Texas and the range.

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Speaker 1: One of my hobbies is collecting uh reports of leopard

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Speaker 1: cats is what they were called in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: So from eighteen thirty to eighteen eighty, you have leopard

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Speaker 1: cats identified almoch every almost every river in Texas up

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Speaker 1: to East Texas and and and they so they really

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Speaker 1: like the dense brush cover that would be a longer

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Speaker 1: ripe hearing area. So I can imagine distinct populations of

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Speaker 1: oslots on every major river Brazas Trinity, Colorado River into

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Speaker 1: East Texas and um. So so they did occurrently losing

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Speaker 1: in Arkansas at least recorded to there. Now are they

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Speaker 1: do they show up in the oral traditions in Native

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Speaker 1: American oral traditions for the Mayans and Aztecs, they do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know the Mayans and Aztecs worshiped jaguars are very

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Speaker 1: important in their in the religion, but the Aztecs, uh,

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Speaker 1: they kind of recognize the the offside is a smaller

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Speaker 1: God likes symbol or it was smaller in there in

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Speaker 1: the symbolism back then the jaguars. If if you're ever

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Speaker 1: eaten by a jaguar, you you went into the portal

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Speaker 1: to hell. So you don't want to be eaten by

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Speaker 1: a jaguar. That's that's It's really rich tradition all the

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Speaker 1: way down to I think the Anchors even had had

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Speaker 1: some of that jaguars worshiping. But deal or cause of

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Speaker 1: cause of death that's not self inflicted is rewarded with hell. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anyone likes to get that, doesn't pop. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: those uh it hurts to be bitten by a can. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: When you say that they bumped into Arkansas perhaps or

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Speaker 1: bumped into Louisiana perhaps, Um, those come from this very

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Speaker 1: like small like single references or whatever. That's right there.

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Speaker 1: The type specimen for the subspecies Alvessons comes from Louisiana.

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Speaker 1: It does yeah, and and and sometimes I get a

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Speaker 1: little mixed up in maybe in Arkansas, but back when

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Speaker 1: it was shortly after being Louisiana purchased, so they called

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Speaker 1: it maybe Louisiana. But the type specimens from there, and

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Speaker 1: then how many at once pot the time, how many

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Speaker 1: we're running around, it's anyone's guess. Now. Really, the records

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Speaker 1: that you you have from the eighteen hundreds is one instance,

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Speaker 1: one anecdote, I shot a leopard cat. I found a

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Speaker 1: leopard cat. With a couple of exceptions, there's um one

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Speaker 1: trapper who reports UM several leopard cats in his catch

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Speaker 1: at the mouth of the San Bernard River. So whereas

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Speaker 1: that's it south of Houston, about about thirty and and

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Speaker 1: and so so that's kind of U is really believable

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Speaker 1: to like he was log in his season's catch. Uh,

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Speaker 1: at least that Yeah, I don't know if the whole season,

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Speaker 1: but it was very probably a very large population in

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Speaker 1: that area at that time. So yeah, it's uh. And

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Speaker 1: and the spelling it was really funny how the anecdote

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Speaker 1: there and the or the narrative was he misspelled everything

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Speaker 1: you could misspell, but he got leopard cats and bears there.

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Speaker 1: And then another one was, oh, the hunter that led

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Speaker 1: the Roosevelt hunts uh and came out of Louisiana, went

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Speaker 1: to Texas and then Um Lily Ben Ben Lily and

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Speaker 1: the guy that ran the um is he the guy

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Speaker 1: that was tangled up in the hole Teddy bearry thing. No,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't now now Ben Lily is a character. And

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Speaker 1: he would never sleep indoors. He already slept outdoors. It

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Speaker 1: was a tremendous cat dog person. He did. Went from

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Speaker 1: Bears in Louisiana, spent nineteen o six, collected a few

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Speaker 1: offslots south of of Houston, Houston that went on and

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Speaker 1: may became famous in Arizona and leading hunt with Teddy Roosevelt.

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Speaker 1: But interestingly, a couple of samples that he collected southea

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Speaker 1: Houston and sent off to the Smithsonian. We we got

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Speaker 1: DNA from the bones of the skull from those cats.

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Speaker 1: So we analyzed that a hundred years later. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting then, But Bill, really, if anyone ever, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's that's an interesting read just there. If if you do,

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Speaker 1: if you can't get a good sense like how many

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Speaker 1: oslots were ever running around? And what's now the US?

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Speaker 1: We do now we have a good idea for the

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Speaker 1: U S what was running around? Oh no, no, not previously.

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Speaker 1: Now it was probably many hundreds at least maybe a

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Speaker 1: few thousand. But can't you guys when you're doing genetic work,

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Speaker 1: can't you guys find um, like if you got an

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Speaker 1: old bone from a hundred years ago, isn't there some

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Speaker 1: process by which you get the mitochondrial DNA from that

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Speaker 1: and you can tell the effective breeding population size by

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Speaker 1: like how many how many contributing mothers are in the population. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we've done that. My student, Yanya netscha Um is now

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Speaker 1: professor at Ducane University in Pittsburgh. But he published four

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Speaker 1: really good Ostlar genetic papers, and one of them was

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Speaker 1: looking at effective population size. Uh. And another one was

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Speaker 1: just where he documented the genetic erosion that's been going

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Speaker 1: on from to ninety five and then two thousand and five.

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Speaker 1: And we've had a very steep decline in genetic variability

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Speaker 1: in the Austal populations. The two populations that occur in Texas,

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Speaker 1: they've lost saying it's called private a lials. Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: where very few of lials are very specific to that population.

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Speaker 1: We would find only one or two in the Texas

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Speaker 1: populations and compared them with our research in Mexico where

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Speaker 1: we'd find thirty private lials. Um, so it's just we've

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Speaker 1: lost heaters. I got genetic heaters igacity. And then the

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Speaker 1: effect their population size is very few, uh down to

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Speaker 1: well we've only really sub sampled a subset of the population,

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Speaker 1: so so but there was very few. And then I

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Speaker 1: had another student, Jennifer Corne, look at the inbreeding and

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Speaker 1: we found four or five inbreeding events in both of

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Speaker 1: the populations. So they've got they've got problems. Can you

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Speaker 1: walk through real quick image, Cause you've been in the

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Speaker 1: cat business so long, you probably know this story about

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Speaker 1: than anybody, or at least as well as anybody what

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Speaker 1: happened with um different cat but has like the inbreeding,

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Speaker 1: wasn't the Florida panther like severely in bread and that

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Speaker 1: led to taking lions out of Texas and putting them

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Speaker 1: in Florida. Yes, that that's that's the night of the

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Speaker 1: of the case. And is that I want to at

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Speaker 1: some point get to like why we can't why you

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Speaker 1: can't just dump a bunch of in Texas now from

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Speaker 1: Mexico and have the problem taking care of Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: a good story to having a second But one of

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Speaker 1: my former students David Schindel is now the Florida panther

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Speaker 1: lead for fishal Life Service and uh um so, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: they the panthers. I think at one time we're estimated

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Speaker 1: thirty five or fifty individuals. And then there's a discussion

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Speaker 1: about bringing Texas and ended up moving eight or more

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Speaker 1: lions from West Texas into Florida to help with the

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Speaker 1: genetic erosion and increased variability, and that that has been

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Speaker 1: very successful. My understanding is they've really the demography of

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Speaker 1: the populations as really expanded, and I think it's been

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Speaker 1: helpful by most assessments. Yeah, it was kind of a

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Speaker 1: deal with the devil a little bit, because, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: one argument. One side said we want to keep the

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Speaker 1: pure Florida panthers that Corey i with subspecies, and then

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Speaker 1: the other said, we don't care, we just want Florida

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Speaker 1: panthers to exist in Florida. And those are the two

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Speaker 1: basic arguments there. Uh. I didn't realize that that you

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Speaker 1: saw that AUSELT populations were still collapsing or continued to

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Speaker 1: collapse like from as recently as five to present, but

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Speaker 1: walked through what happened to what happened to this cat

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Speaker 1: to get into trouble in the first place. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think the first settlers came and settled on the rivers

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Speaker 1: where they also populations were. And since we've already said,

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Speaker 1: also so easy to trap they are and to kill

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Speaker 1: right off the bat, he had that conflict between humans

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Speaker 1: and people and so over the years. Uh, there was

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Speaker 1: a pretty extensive poisoning going on in the nineteen fifties

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Speaker 1: forties fifties for prindor to control they help benefit game species.

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Speaker 1: Why were they pissed it? Azlots. It was just universal

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Speaker 1: and everything strychnine to kill just about everything because asels

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Speaker 1: they probably killed chickens and stuff. If they're not gonna

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Speaker 1: take down cattle or and that's the worst thing about

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Speaker 1: it also as it kills chickens and so if not

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Speaker 1: a chicken fish on ato, who cares, you know. And

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Speaker 1: i'd really have awf lots where they're very they're very

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Speaker 1: uh um, a very peaceful cat, I mean, and that's

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Speaker 1: probably one reason they easy to catch and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people had him as pets. But they don't they

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Speaker 1: don't hurt livestock, they don't hurt game species. Uh there there,

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Speaker 1: And I think they're general demeanor they're very popular pet

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties. UM. I know some of your

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Speaker 1: audience is probably too young to remember who Don Meredith was,

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Speaker 1: but he was. He was one of the first commentator

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Speaker 1: on on on Monday Night football, and he was the

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Speaker 1: quarterback from Dallas Cowboys from n to sixty eight. I

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Speaker 1: believe he had a pet awful lot. His name is

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Speaker 1: Peppe and uh, and so he really enjoyed that cat.

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Speaker 1: And he came home after losing to the Washington Redskins

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Speaker 1: for a weekend and it got a concussion during that game,

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Speaker 1: and I only to find out that the housekeeper let

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Speaker 1: the cat out and it got ran over. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of double double loss that weekend for down Aria.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of people had them as pets and

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Speaker 1: then in the fifties and sixties and thought it was

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Speaker 1: a glamorous thing to do if you kept them indoors,

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Speaker 1: though you regretted it because they would spray urin all

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Speaker 1: on everything, and then they have a very distinctive smell

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Speaker 1: in the urine. Uh, And you don't want to live

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Speaker 1: there for too long after that happens. Was that still

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Speaker 1: legal in our country in the sixties, that you could

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Speaker 1: just take an animal like that out of the wild

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Speaker 1: and turn them into a pet. Yes, in the sixties. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they didn't become endangered internationally until nineteen seventy three and

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Speaker 1: nationally until two. There was a overlook. They missed adding

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Speaker 1: it to the list in seventy seventy three. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: and people have had them pets even in the in

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Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties. And you may still be able

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Speaker 1: to do it if you have all the different permits

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Speaker 1: that's required. It's it's very much difficult to do it. Now.

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Speaker 1: Where do they sit on the Endangered Species Act List? Now?

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Speaker 1: Are they listened A threatened or listed is endangered? The

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Speaker 1: listed is endangered. Yeah, fewer than a hundred left in

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Speaker 1: the United States? What at what year did you take

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Speaker 1: note of something? And that little film you guys put

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Speaker 1: together it mentions how when you first got interested and

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Speaker 1: people told you that you wouldn't be able to catch

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Speaker 1: one because there weren't any to be caught. Yeah, um uh.

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Speaker 1: A professor that Neil and I share in common was

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Speaker 1: Dr Jack English. He was one of my wilife professors

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Speaker 1: and bet me a bottle of Jack Daniels that I'd

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Speaker 1: never catch an awesol lot and um, and so likely

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Speaker 1: I did on March two, which was awesol at day

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Speaker 1: happens to be Texas Independence Day by the way. But

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Speaker 1: so I caught the ouslet on that day. And a

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Speaker 1: year later Jacking was bought me the bottle of Jack Daniels.

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Speaker 1: Take him a whole year to do it? Well, we

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Speaker 1: only met at a conference a year later and we

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Speaker 1: drove around Austin. They bought that bollo of Jack Daniels.

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Speaker 1: And every time my students and I caught a species

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Speaker 1: a cat for research, we take a shot out of

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Speaker 1: that bottle. So we've had over trail shots. We're studied

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Speaker 1: over trail different kinds of cats, and so we and

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Speaker 1: I hope to have a few more shots coming out

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Speaker 1: of it. Walk through, uh, walk through sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: like a career path of someone like your interesting career

351
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Speaker 1: whatever to where you got to be like I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: try to catch an oz lot. I'm gonna try to

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Speaker 1: trap an oz lot, which supposed they aren't here anymore. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you want to do it as student? Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: is that? Is that what you mean? Kind of like

356
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Speaker 1: how did you get in the situation to even care? I? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think. Uh. I think serendipity and luck had to

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Speaker 1: play a lot with it. But I think also hard

359
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Speaker 1: work puts you in that position to to to be

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Speaker 1: at least noticed by your the next level. The professors

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Speaker 1: that were willing to take a chance on me. And uh,

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Speaker 1: but I've been very lucky throughout my career. I think,

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Speaker 1: very fortunate to do what I am able to do.

364
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Speaker 1: But I was in the right place to my master's

365
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Speaker 1: I did okay on on my master's projects, so they

366
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Speaker 1: offered a PhD which involved awesol lots. And then I

367
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Speaker 1: got with the old trappers the first few months and

368
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Speaker 1: and the people that have trapped aff lots for forty

369
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Speaker 1: years and kind of learned a lot of techniques from them,

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Speaker 1: and and then I hit the right place and uh,

371
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Speaker 1: and that's why I came down to it's just finding

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Speaker 1: the right place. Did you grow up hunting trapping? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did. I I hunted um and yeah, I can

374
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Speaker 1: think of a little trapping possums and things when I

375
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Speaker 1: was younger, and did some limited hunting. When I was

376
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Speaker 1: a kid, I did some bird hunting, dove hunting and

377
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Speaker 1: duck and but I I've gotten where I'm so obsessed

378
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Speaker 1: now with cats. I don't do any I can't fish,

379
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Speaker 1: I can't hunt. I can't do anything except read or

380
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Speaker 1: study about cats. And that's a I probably need some

381
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Speaker 1: psychoanalysis for that. But but uh, but I so that

382
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Speaker 1: was yeah, and it was in the outdoors. I was

383
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Speaker 1: a bird watcher. I don't tell I consider myself mamalogist.

384
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Speaker 1: And I learned early on that people well that ornithologist

385
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Speaker 1: didn't have as much fun as mamalogist had, and so

386
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Speaker 1: I ended up becoming a mamologist instead of ornithologist, at

387
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Speaker 1: least in my opinion. They may argue that with back

388
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Speaker 1: in the so you caught your first one at eighty two,

389
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Speaker 1: and what was it? What was the reason that you

390
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: needed to go out and catch an oz lot? We

391
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Speaker 1: got a contract from the Fish Wife Service to to

392
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Speaker 1: study assorts as they were putting them on the dangerous

393
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Speaker 1: species list that year. They wanted to have a little

394
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Speaker 1: bit of information and found to find out even if

395
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Speaker 1: they existed in the state. I had several gray hairs,

396
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Speaker 1: and professors tell me they no longer occurred in Texas,

397
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: that they've been extrapated, but people weren't just hitting them

398
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Speaker 1: with cars and stuff. No, not. Well, if they were,

399
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: they weren't being reported back then, because that's the weird

400
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Speaker 1: thing about with Florida panthers, right, it'd be like, oh,

401
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: there's only thirty left, but then every year three of

402
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: them get hit by cars. Yeah, that's right, that's the

403
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: picture you could hide. It's a parallel with oss loots there.

404
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: But the refuge La gonna As goes to refuge where

405
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: I began some of that work. The refuge staff didn't

406
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: know they had them there. They knew they had them

407
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: in the mid sixties when they did some prida to

408
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: trapping they found something. They've gone ten years and didn't

409
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: even realize they had them, And they probably have always

410
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,679
Speaker 1: had about seven to fourteen as lots even now. Are

411
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Speaker 1: they just super secretive? They're secretive the nocturnal um, and

412
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: they liked and they enjoy really dense brush brush that

413
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: no one wants to walk into. So those three factors

414
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: alone makes some A lot of ranchers will not A

415
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: few ranchers have all slots, but they didn't know it

416
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Speaker 1: because of those three factors. I would just think that

417
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: with I mean, I guess it's testament to how few

418
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 1: there maybe were. I would think that with guys out

419
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: predator calling and Kyle and bobcat trappers that if there

420
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: was one left, someone would have it. Well again, you're right, Um,

421
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: I consider roads a very effective sampling technique. You know,

422
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Speaker 1: if if a population is somewhere, they're gonna get ran nowhere.

423
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Speaker 1: That's why Harry and the Henderson's would happen for real,

424
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Speaker 1: if there were bigfoot. Now that's not I've used that

425
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: same example, like if they were there, someone would run

426
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: over them and it wouldn't be like a secrety thing

427
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: now and they would just be a big dead one

428
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 1: in the road. And then when I when I expressed

429
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: my doubt about that, I started getting hate mail from Michigan, Wisconsin.

430
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: So I don't talk about bigfoot anymore. Quit, No, yeah,

431
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: you don't want to talk about bigfoot. They there's some

432
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: serious people out there still convinced. Would that be in

433
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: your like, as a mammalogist, that'd be right in your wheelhouse,

434
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: right yeah? Yeah, But I'm going to a different direction. Okay,

435
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 1: you don't even want to be implicating this conversation. I'm

436
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: kind of figuring out how to get out of it. Actually.

437
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: So anyways, I was saying with all these ways in

438
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: which they could that awesl lots um. Yeah, I guess

439
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: the point where I'm saying is this. I always struggle

440
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: with um Lazarus speak, you know, this trying to if

441
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: you guys use the term Lazarus species like species that

442
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: rise from the dead, right, So like blackfooted ferret, um

443
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: it's gone, and it's like, holy sh it, it's not gone.

444
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: A guy's dog just dragged one. And then uh, the

445
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: Tasmanian devil. What's that? What's that animal called cal I'm

446
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: trying to engage with calm throwing them. I'm throwing him

447
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: an easy one. What is the animal that is most

448
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: similar to a Tasmanian devil? No, they have a better

449
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: name than Tasmanian devil, Like the tiger. That's what I'm

450
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 1: trying to say, Tasmanian tiger, theistee or something like that, right,

451
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: that thing, Yeah, that is that's like the saddest pick

452
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: of all is like the this cool looking strape dog

453
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: cat combo that is in a jail and it's like

454
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: the last one. But people have been every year feeling

455
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: like they saw one. Yes, you know, well, that's the

456
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: equivalent of Jagger Rundee's in Texas in the United States,

457
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: throughout the South. I to this day, I have biologists

458
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: and we were just talking about it. I've had five

459
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: or six what I considered famous bologists argue with me

460
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: about Jagger and news occurring throughout South, the South, Florida, Texas.

461
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: In my opinion, Jagger news don't exist, haven't existed in

462
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: Texas since Night in the Last Road killed in nineteen

463
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: eighty six. But do you have a loan eight six?

464
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: Someone ran over at Jagger Runde in Texas well in

465
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: April nineteen eighty six to two miles of east of Brownsville.

466
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: Also very close to not being in Texas. Yeah, there

467
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: you go. Well they even never were never located north

468
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: of Royal Grand Valley anyway, although people think they're cur

469
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: throughout the South. So there you are. It's early eighties.

470
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: Some people say there may be gone. I would have

471
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: been They're definitely gone. If someone thinks there may be gone,

472
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: I'd say they're gone. Oh you know what, here's another one.

473
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: Everybody's still looking for the ivory build woodpecker. Yeah, well

474
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: I saw when when I was back when I was

475
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: a bird watcher. By the way, it would be early seventies.

476
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I thought I saw one anyway, but I'm

477
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: sure it was a poor But no one's laid eyes

478
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: on one since I don't know, But every year people

479
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: go looking for him. Yeah, and they see what we

480
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: what we call where I'm from, pilliated woodpeckers. Yeah, affiliated woodpeckers.

481
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: And it's the same phenomena. I think that the bigfoot

482
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: of the locknest monster. Here's another thing. To have a

483
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: viable population of any species, you need fifty more individuals

484
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: to live for a hundred years. Huh, Well, okay, but

485
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,719
Speaker 1: who gets to make that? Who gets to say that

486
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: that's the truth that came out Michaels Fule is like

487
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: the beginning of m v PS minimum viable populations and discussions,

488
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: and it has since became much more complicated since then.

489
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: But he's so he's like here, you hear you, Yeah,

490
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: if you have fifty of something, well, and that's a

491
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: computer modeling will show that for a kind of species.

492
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: And now it's called population viability analyses. We've done two

493
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: different PhD projects on that. You put in all these

494
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: life parameters and you can estimate how long a population

495
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: of a certain size will persist over time. I guess

496
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: I'm incredulous of it because I could see if you said,

497
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: for large mammals, for instance, it would take a population

498
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: of x right, for large marine mammals, it would require it.

499
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: But if we're talking about a plant, you know what

500
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: I'm saying, it's a chargian. Time is an important part

501
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: of a mouse, which is an elephant. Yeah, And as

502
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: part of this modeling, it's there are a lot of

503
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: variables to go on this MA but there's there's been

504
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: much research done on that. But the gist of it

505
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: is is if you have a very small population, it's

506
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: it's very unlikely to survive a long period of time.

507
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: So so I kind of call it a viable population

508
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: of a bigfoot or Lochness monster. You probably need at

509
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: least fifty of them. If you're gonna have fifty Lochness monsters,

510
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: you probably need several locks to have a population. I

511
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: went to that lock one time and looked out upon it.

512
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: I didn't see anything. Um, I wish you were more.

513
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: I wish you'd like to talk about bigfoot because I

514
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: could think and talking to you, I could get better

515
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: at arguing with bigfoot people. Yeah, yeah, No, I I

516
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: I'll just call you sometimes. You could give me a

517
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: crash course on on what one might say in an

518
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: argument with bigfoot people to make you seem more right

519
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: for you to those strengding letters that I got. So

520
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: viable population question is like so right now, you know,

521
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 1: like when you're at wolf ree introduction, like the lowest

522
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: folks are willing to go is a hundred animals. That's

523
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: like the bare minimum. There's a lot of folks that

524
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: are It would be like pulling teeth to get them

525
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: to go below two fifty animals. And that's a pretty

526
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: fast reproducing animal. You know. I was just doing a

527
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: lot of research on Australian lyre birds, which are pretty

528
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: dark and cool. That's a songbird, big songbird that doesn't

529
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: even get around to thinking about reproduction on the male

530
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: or female side until they're between five and seven years old.

531
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: And it's like, think at all the stuff you gotta

532
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: survive to get to five or seven years old, and

533
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: you're a ground dwelling songbird. Six million feral cats whatever

534
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: the cats, Yeah, mongoose is feral cats. Yeah. Uh, kids

535
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: with sling shots bb guns, um, and so like how

536
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 1: does that I understand? Like the model was set up

537
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: to be manipulated, but it is something that seems like

538
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: it is kind of an arbitrary number. Well, that's another

539
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: variable that goes into the model is age the first

540
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: reproduction and and what it turned out for oslots and

541
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: and many of the cats is how many how long

542
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: does a breeding female UM produce young? And and how

543
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: many young do they produce? And oslots typically only have

544
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: one to two young compared to bobcats at two to

545
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: four and and then so and also it's reproduced well

546
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: into the years. The Bill Swanson, who is an expert

547
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: on ALLSTO reproduction Cincineti Zoo will have reproductively active males

548
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: well beyond ten years, and same thing for for females

549
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: they last reproductives. So they are all these variables kind

550
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: of go under these models UM and I'm by no

551
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: mean an expert on them. That's why why we have

552
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: other people doing but and it's really and you really

553
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: have to take it with a lot of grains of salt.

554
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: It just kind of really gives you an ideal of

555
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: of say I'd rather put into it, and fifty wolves

556
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: in a hundred wolves because of these factors and for us.

557
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: It helped us identify what what kind of information do

558
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: we need most? And what it turned out to be

559
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: was how many young does a female produce for how

560
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: many years? And so it really kind of guide you

561
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: into what kind of information to collect to get more

562
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: fined refined estimates and and and things to worry about

563
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: and not worry about. I want to keep moving with

564
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: the chronology of of the like the story of the

565
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: Awful Lot. But if at some point there's the way

566
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: to weave this in, I'd like to understand this. We

567
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: will often say that, um, if a female of whatever

568
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: species let they were talking about ass lots like, if

569
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: she can successfully produce use two, if she can have

570
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: to offspring that make it to breeding age, she was successful,

571
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: and you would hold the population like the population remains static?

572
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: Is that like an acceptable thing to say to somebody? Well,

573
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: what is it? The humans? You have to have at

574
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: least two point three humans to maintain? Okay, well I

575
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: learned that twenty years ago, maybe, because but I think

576
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: about that with salmon and stuff, right, is they're dropping

577
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, thousands of eggs and being like, if

578
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: two of those eggs makes it, the fish was successful Yeah,

579
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: two of the eggs out of or with sturgeon, they're

580
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: putting in producing in a lifetime millions of eggs. Two

581
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: of those make it. That's a successful fish. Yeah, and

582
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: there you know they're they're strategies just produce eggs and

583
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: there's no parental care. And then you have the reverse

584
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: where elephants might put in years for for making sure

585
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: that young survived to breeding age. So you have everything

586
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: in between. But yeah, two point three humans, I guess

587
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: everyplace and in uh that that seems logical. Can you

588
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: real quick explain those strategies where you have there's like

589
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: they have letters applied to them, right, like the rabbit

590
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: strategy or whatever. O K K selected species and are

591
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: selected species? That's right? I mean like you have a

592
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: ton of them and don't pay any attention to them. Yeah,

593
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: that's our select a selected species were and help me

594
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: know if I'm wrong. K. Selected species is where they

595
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: invest a lot of energy and time in raising the

596
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: young and making sure they reach breeding age. Like a

597
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: black bear, Right, she's gonna spend she's gonna spend two

598
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: years tutoring her offspring, caring for and tutoring her offspring. Yeah,

599
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: and the rabbits like see you. Yeah, yeah, I want

600
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: to live. You can get out of here. No, I

601
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: know a lot of prayer like that, you know, the

602
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: rodents and everything else. Um, what was it that you

603
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: actually wanted the oz lot for when you went out

604
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: to catch one? When you said I'm gonna study oslats,

605
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: People like it's probably I need to study or whatever,

606
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: But like, what, what really were you winding one? We

607
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: had everything you could list that at the time we

608
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: wanted to learn about it. It's home range, size, how

609
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: many there were, Um, what kind of social organization did

610
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: they have? Whatever? Their activity? Just the basic natural history,

611
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 1: like enough to fill out an Audubon guide book. Yeah,

612
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 1: and we've probably did. We probably did at the time

613
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: we were That was the very first offlot study and

614
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: another one starting Venezuela a few months later, but nothing

615
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: was known at that time about oslats. It was the

616
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: first off lot stuff. When you learned from the when

617
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: you when you had to go ask around about how

618
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: to go get one, Uh, layout, like what kind of

619
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: sets you were making and how you were catching them

620
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: because it's kind of weird. It's like, I think I

621
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: haven't seen a strategy that I don't know why it's

622
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: not more widely used. Well, we used birds, Yeah, we

623
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: use box well, and they stay alive. By the way,

624
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: this want to make that point, we we use box trap.

625
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, Tom, imagine the night. Imagine the night

626
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: that pigeon spends separated by some quarter inch mesh from

627
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: an azal. We started all for chickens for the first

628
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: twenty thirty years, and it's amazing. It's not what you

629
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: would think. I would walk up in the morning of

630
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: the check traps and also be sound asleep, and the

631
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: chicken was trying to pick fleas off the ears of

632
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: aust more than multiple times. That happened. Several times. They

633
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: attained relationship during the night. So it doesn't like destroy

634
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 1: the chicken psyche. Not well, it's hard to tell the

635
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: chicken psyche. But I couldn't. I don't. I didn't detect that. No,

636
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: I'm not condemned. I mean it's like, plus, you have

637
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: every justification when you're trying to like find out what's

638
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: going on with something that's gonna be like wiped off

639
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: the face of the earth. If it gives a chicken

640
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: a little bit of a heart. Well, Ted was my

641
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: favorite rooster, and and and he did. He lost one

642
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 1: eye in a battle with the raccoon and things, but

643
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: this is eighty three. But he persisted and he caught

644
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: several aw slots big white rooster. I would place the

645
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: roosters a certain distance apart, so in the early morning

646
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: they'd be crowing to each other, and then it's like

647
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: a natural predator to call that was I'm sure it

648
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: helped ow slots. That's a great idea. Describe the trap

649
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: now that like it's kind of like where you go

650
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: to set it and how you figured out where to go.

651
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: I want to know why we don't use chickens anymore.

652
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: Pigeons now, Well, they crap too much and eat too

653
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: much foods pigeons. It's cheaper where they do less of both.

654
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: They they're less defecation problem less and less of food

655
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: and uh and they're very happy. And the birds we

656
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: take very good. I mean, you wouldn't believe the care

657
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: we take care of the pigeons in the aviary and

658
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: then treated treated very well and uh so, but it's

659
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 1: very effective and so I so I use white pigeons

660
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: to try to increase the light during the night, and

661
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: and we'll catch as many bobcats and all slots. Uh,

662
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: typically a hundred trap nights hundred fifty trap knights to

663
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: catch one after one bobcat, that's ten traps out for

664
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: fifteen nights to get a hundred fifty trap knights. One

665
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: trap for one night is one trap night. So they're

666
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: pretty easy. But jagger rundys in Mexico, there's over a

667
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 1: thousand of trap knights that catch jag Undy. They're very,

668
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: very difficult to catch, and that's why no one's published

669
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: on them, I guess. So far explain the set like

670
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: the set for an awesole lot, and I want to

671
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: get back into the bait thing too. Okay, Well, first

672
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: you find out where there's a road kill if you can,

673
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: so there's probably a population nearby. Then you look for

674
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: the densest brush near that road kill. Just one road

675
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: kill pretty much. Yeah, they're they're not all, but it

676
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 1: probably will reflect where population is. Yeah, it's a really

677
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: pretty effective And you can't be telling me that every

678
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: time you drive down the Southern Texas Highway you see

679
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: a road kill, that there's a population of oslots nearby. Well,

680
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: there've been very few locations of road kills. They have

681
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: only been there. The two populations A sorry, sorry, yeah

682
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: I was Oh I got you thought any old road, Yeah,

683
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, oh, there's a dead nil guy, let's set

684
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: up no, So you find the recent Oslot road killed

685
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: dead and then go from there. But there were but two.

686
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: There weren't dead sts on the road. There there one,

687
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: And I understand now the refuge only had so into

688
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: fourteen and no one had reported a recent Oslit road

689
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: kill there. The other larger population of the OSTs occur

690
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: on on five to seven ranches, large ranches, and you

691
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 1: were probably on one of them, the hassianit Eteria ranch

692
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: just recently. We believe there's probably of some nearby there.

693
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: But these are large ranches away from the two roads

694
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: that are there. There are only two highways and so

695
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: so the big populations away from roads. That that explains

696
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: part of it. So when you went out to make

697
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: the to catch one, you just went to the last place,

698
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: like like, how do you know? I mean, how did

699
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: you decide like, well, here's a place to try. Well,

700
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: I had to go the last place. No one to

701
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: have seen one or something. Couple of old trappers told

702
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: me where they trapped them in the past, and Uh,

703
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: and sure enough they it's really the same place they've

704
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: been trapping them since nineteen forties and fifties. And then

705
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: they're still there, Uh, in those few places. And talk

706
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: about the set now the box trap. Uh. So we

707
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: find the densest brush and the the largest patch of

708
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: that dinsant brush that we can thorn shrub is their habitat.

709
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: There'll be thirty five different species of thorny shrub species there.

710
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: It's amazingly beautifully complex shrub community. Any place we can

711
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: find a trail in that that we can get too easily,

712
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: or where a trail intersects another trail you have, it

713
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: increases your odds. So so we'd look for that and

714
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: and so a history of cats, good habitat and then

715
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 1: looking for trail sites a place to trap, and then

716
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: uh and then pretty good chance you'll catch a cat

717
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: if there's one there in a short period of time. Uh.

718
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: You know what we didn't talk about. That meant to

719
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: ask about what, um, what the hell are people doing

720
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: with them when they're trapping like one like in the

721
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: whatever in the forties, fifties, sixties, when they were getting

722
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: knocked Yeah, yeah they were, they were They sell them

723
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: as in the fur markets. Yeah, yeah, they were. There's

724
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: a record I just sent Neil from the nineteen forties

725
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 1: of these two off lots that were Chaptain in the

726
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 1: Star County, which is right adjacent Real Grandy, and he

727
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: sold them for two dollars and fifty cents perpelled. So

728
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: they would sell them in the old days, and like

729
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: a lot of the pelts, they sell them so you

730
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: could go down and get like yourself, like an Awesolt

731
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: jacket or something. Back then. Yeah, yeah, if you go

732
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: back for enough in time, there was a very popular

733
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: trading uh thing on the frontier. People didn't have cash,

734
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: they didn't couldn't spend money. Stuff. You wanted to to

735
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: get some milk or some eggs, you trade something and

736
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: often a pelt awes up pelt was very valuable in trading,

737
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: and the comanches would use them for saddles. They would

738
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: just throw an afsup pelt on the horse and then

739
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: ride on that. It's kind of yeah, and there the

740
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: quivers for the arrows would be awest quick quivers as

741
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: up pelts would be. Is really interesting, you know. It

742
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: was important in the frontier just because they're so cool looking,

743
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: probably exactly so when you caught the first one, what'd

744
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: you catch down the a chicken or pigeon? The very

745
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: first one of all the cats we've caught tun or fifty,

746
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: we technically caught it on a padded leghold trap at

747
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: two and a half. That was pre live trap. Yes,

748
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: you were using live traps. Yeah, and we in our

749
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: federal permit, we had in there the fact that we

750
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 1: could use lagold traps, box traps or even hounds. And

751
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: and um, John, my my buddy who's out of Maine,

752
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: help me catch that first off alot on the on

753
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: the Gallopy ranch. And then and he he was um

754
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: working on so he had the padded lake holds and

755
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: so so that all the other cats since then, since

756
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 1: that very first cat had been with box chaps. Five

757
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: days later we caught another I kind of know, the

758
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: oslot with a box chap. So so yeah, it's it's

759
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: and and the chicken thing has worked around the world again.

760
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: We've we've trapped twelve different species of cats, all on chickens.

761
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: So it's kind of amazing. He you got a box

762
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: trap and in the back of the where you put

763
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: the bait, there's a separate little cage exactly, and the

764
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: bird hangs out in there and they're protected in their

765
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: food and water. All they want to eat. But cats

766
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: like chickens, and he comes in there and triggers a

767
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: thing and kicks the treatle or whatever, and the door

768
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: shuts exactly. Yeah. We used to put lures sometimes, or

769
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: we'd hang some flagging. You hang a feather so it

770
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: blows the wind, or some fur we've we found it.

771
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: We don't even need to use lure. If you just

772
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: have the bird there, that works as good as anything.

773
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: No find that thing. Yeah, yeah, I like that crowing trick,

774
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: putting them out so they crow back and forth. Yeah. Yeah,

775
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: it made me feel good, maybe think that I actually

776
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: had it figured out and stuff, But I don't know.

777
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 1: I think it helped a little household. I was gonna say,

778
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: your PhD PhD student in that video though I was

779
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: doing a little like covering the floor of that trap.

780
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: They are sensitive a little bit to the to the medal. Well.

781
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: I tried to teach that to make sure that I

782
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: teach the perfect set and the setting dirt along the

783
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: medal and the travel and encase it in brush so

784
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: there's only one entrance from the front and I get

785
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 1: him the perfect scenario. But but I've put traps where

786
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: they're even sitting almost in the air and sometimes and

787
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: so I start off with the ideal trap. But you

788
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: can at least for all thoughts, you can catch them

789
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: in other ways. It's not a perfect trap set. Didn't

790
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: make the news when you caught one, or was there, like,

791
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: was there media around the fact that you started catching them? Now,

792
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: I I always for the first two years, I thought

793
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: that it was I would catch them and work him

794
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: up all by myself, and and I always thought this

795
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: was a very I felt like it should have more

796
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: attention than it was getting. I was just there by myself,

797
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: and and then the cat research and and a couple

798
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: of years later there started to be some media things. Yeah.

799
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: Well after a while there was a ton of media things. Yeah,

800
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: there there's been a variety of There's been a lot

801
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: of things over over the years. And then when you

802
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: came into it, I would have thought that at that

803
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: point they get ees a protection and two two for

804
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: the U S. Yeah, Why did that not lead to

805
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 1: why was that insufficient to like? Why were the numbers

806
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: still going down? Like an eight five? They're still going

807
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: down the numbers were probably very similar, but the genetic

808
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: erosion of the same population. We were monitoring the clind

809
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: of Hitteror's igocity or the genetic variation, so that's why

810
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: I was going down. The numbers were probably about the

811
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: same I think for the last since we started three

812
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 1: to eight years ago, the numbers have always been about

813
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: the same, but they increase in wet years and you

814
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: have high prey. But when the droughts hit, you get

815
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: a two or three year drought, it it affects that

816
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: this astle survival. We've documented that through our research that

817
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: um you get a severe drought six months into the

818
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 1: vegetation is really pretty much gone. The rodents and rabbits

819
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: that decline from that vegetation and then you see failure

820
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: of also reproduction about about twelve twelve eighteen months later.

821
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: And they can only go for so long when they

822
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: have so few cats, and and the oslots disperse, A

823
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: lot of the sub the subordinate or sub dominant individuals

824
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: will disperse, and we found that the home ranges of

825
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: the residents will expand so and they're the residents will

826
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: survive because they've got it figured out. They know what

827
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: the home range is they know where to hide, where

828
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 1: to find food. Every night, they really intensively explore their

829
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: home range, and they have an understanding of real time

830
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,439
Speaker 1: understanding of where the prey is, where the dangers are,

831
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 1: where the coyotes, risks are, and things, and so they

832
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: know when the prey starts to decline, the residents probably

833
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: push off the dispersers, and the dispersers are the ones

834
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 1: that died. They have much lower survival. They die from

835
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 1: road kills. Yeah, by cars. Yeah, that's number one form

836
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: of mortality now is road kills. What else you were mentioned?

837
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: Kyle's kyles to kill them, We've never documented that. I'm

838
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure it wouldn't be it would happen for kittens

839
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: at least, but the fact that they used really dense

840
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: brush most of the time coyotes won't go into that brush.

841
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: But if a pack of coyotes, UH found one in

842
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: the open, and it probably would be a problem. But

843
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: there's enough other things that woul kill him. We've had

844
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: had him die from ral snake bites, uh ingesting a

845
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: grasper into the lungs. Main do you lose them to

846
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: just some people being like what the hell is that?

847
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: And then shoot it? Um, which seems to be a

848
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: real thing. Well there, it happened only once that I

849
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: can think of, in the late nine You didn't, I

850
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't identifying myself. I was just that was that was

851
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: not me, that was exactly well, that's how that's how

852
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: he got interested in the subject. The story I heard

853
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: was it was a hunter out of Houston shot one

854
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: with a bow and arrow. Yeah, because because he thought

855
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: it was a bobcat, okay, And and about went out

856
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 1: of ten of bobcats and spots just like an awf lot.

857
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 1: So so it's really hard to distinguish. Well, but yeah,

858
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 1: the whole tale problem. Yeah, you know, and a bobcat

859
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: has sometimes surprisingly long tail six inches, you know. So

860
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: so someone who's not out there hunting all the time,

861
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,439
Speaker 1: you can fall into that. That happens all the time,

862
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: even with people that know what they're looking at. I

863
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: was a young biologist and I was about five, and

864
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: I was working on a piece of ground and called

865
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: Mike two us out in five and told him that

866
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: he that a buddy of mine and myself had seen

867
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: an awesol lot and it was close by jim Wells County,

868
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: And sure enough, an awflot population hadn't been found there

869
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: since Bob. Yeah it was Bobcat. We don't know what

870
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: we were talking about. Uh, what if someone were to say,

871
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: if the population just doesn't seem to have changed since that,

872
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: maybe in fact they're not endangered. Maybe they just aren't

873
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: that many of them never were and aren't. Well, we're

874
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: just how do you handle like, how do how do

875
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: you handle that question? Yeah, it's a good question. It's

876
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: a they're definitely many more in their range of Mexico,

877
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: Central and South America. There are thousands there where. So

878
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: it's we're really talking about the US population, which is

879
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: fewer than a and um and so it and probably

880
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: the hardest question the answers why should we care? Why

881
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: should we spend a lot of money? I don't struggle

882
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,399
Speaker 1: that one, but go on, Okay, so some people do

883
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: and and and I just um um. For me, it's

884
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: just that the people that are involved with saw conservation

885
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: have already gone past that question. Regardless of what kind

886
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: of argument you want to use, They're determined they want

887
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: to keep them for whatever reason. And uh, and their

888
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: variety of reasons, Well, I want you to get into that.

889
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: Sell me on wanting to keep them. I mean, I'm

890
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: on board because I don't like I don't like us

891
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: playing god and deciding that we're gonna eliminate species from

892
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: the planet. But uh, sell me on that idea. But

893
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: but what about I mean like but also like talk

894
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: about the one I'm talking about where how if if

895
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: since the moment, the first time someone ever studied them,

896
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: they found like, hey, it looks basically like this, and

897
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: then that's that remains static for thirty forty years. Um,

898
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 1: how do you demonstrate that there's a problem, because but

899
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: there's no baseline, there's no real baseline idea, right, Like

900
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: if you're going in an A T two to do

901
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: like baseline data gathering and not like what are things

902
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: supposed to look like? But what do they look like?

903
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,959
Speaker 1: And it looked like that and it still looks like that?

904
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 1: How do you convince people that we're facing a problem? Well,

905
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: I think that just the fact when that one what

906
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: we call the refuge population only has seven to fourteen individuals.

907
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: If you're lucky you have half of that, it's females seven.

908
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 1: And there's a saying called demographic stocasticity. Sooner or later

909
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: you're going to have you're gonna have fourteen males and

910
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: no females just by chance over time. That's why I

911
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: happened with the seaside dusky sparrow came down to six individuals.

912
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: They're all ten uply males, and that was extinction. There's

913
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: some real practical, practical reasons why we should think that

914
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: they were more widely spread. Right now, if you were

915
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: to look on the coast and the center of the

916
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: population for oscelots, we had Hurricane Hannah come through what

917
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: was it maybe five six weeks ago, maybe a little

918
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: bit longer. Hurricane Hannah was Category one hurricane. The eye

919
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: of that hurricane came right over top dead center the

920
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 1: center of the universe for oscelots in Texas. If in fact,

921
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 1: that would have been saying category for hurricane like Hurricane

922
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: Laura that hit the southwest coast of Louisiana, we probably

923
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: would have lost that population of ausselots. So if you've

924
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: got you've got them geographically confined in an area right

925
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: there and they all exist, you know of them got

926
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: to be below twenty ft in elevation, and you get

927
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: a storm surge, you get the you know, you get

928
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: everything that comes along with a major hurricane. There's no

929
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: way that they will last and will last for very

930
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: much longer, just with that one particular source of you know,

931
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: potential catastrophe to them. Yeah, I got you that. That's

932
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: an interesting point. And also that idea that if you

933
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: have like carrying capacity for such a small number. I

934
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: never thought about the fact that you could wind up

935
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: in a situation where they're all the same gender. Yeah,

936
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: that's the demographic stocastasy. You've got the environmental and stocastasy

937
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: saying you get a five year or tenure drought, that

938
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: might do it. Every hundred years we get we get

939
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: a five or teen year drought, and we've got habitat elsewhere, right,

940
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: not not right next to it, but habitat elsewhere. That's

941
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 1: perfectly good, awesome lot, habitat not occupied? What what is

942
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: what is not? What is like? Not worked? Why has

943
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: the ees A protection not been I guess if you

944
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: look at the s A protection is being keep it

945
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: from going extinct. We're here to keep it from going extinct. Um,

946
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not what it is. But if you

947
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: look at that being success, you could argue, like, okay,

948
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: it was successful because they're not extinct. But if you

949
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: look at ees A protection as being a vehicle that

950
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: would lead to recovery and it's not a one way road,

951
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: and the expectation would be you know, I think it

952
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: only happens two percent of the time. Um. I'm not

953
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: saying that's the fault of the ESA, but has a

954
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: very low success rate in terms of something going on

955
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: the e s a list uh and getting off. There's

956
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: two percent of things. I think a variety of this happens.

957
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: That it goes on and then they realize that it

958
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: shouldn't have gone on because they find other populations. It

959
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 1: goes on and it's already gone. Um or it goes

960
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: on and it becomes gone. Yeah. So not many things

961
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,399
Speaker 1: make it off. But what like what is preventing sinceo now?

962
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: What has made it that? Now we're not like the

963
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 1: same way we are about bald eagles where you aloneys

964
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: get sick of looking at bald eagles? Yeah? Yeah. Well,

965
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 1: and in Texas it's nineties seven per cent private land.

966
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 1: It's probably unlike any other state, um uh, Texas retained

967
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: its private lands. So any management conservation wilife is dependent

968
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: on private landowners and um and and Neil can probably

969
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: addresses as good as anyone. Um. This incentives that are

970
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: built into the Danger Species Act, and the fear that

971
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: many landowners have that they'll lose their ability to manage

972
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: the lands they wanted in the way that they want

973
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 1: to gives them no incentive to even I did fact

974
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: that they have an endangered species on the property. In

975
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: their view, for many of them, it's a distancentive. No,

976
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 1: you think, yeah, so, I mean, if you look at

977
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: awesol lots. For example, a hundred awesol lots, probably greater

978
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: than sevent those awfl lots are on private lands in

979
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: and these are large ranches. Um, there's against the tide,

980
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: uh desired by those private landowners to somehow conserve awesol

981
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: lots for reasons of their own. Some of those are

982
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: stewardship reasons that it would be a shame, given that

983
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: treasure that exists on those lands, to let that species

984
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: go extinct. Now, if you look over at the Endangered

985
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 1: Species Act, and let's say it's a realm of paper.

986
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: You know, they just print the whole Act out and

987
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: everything that has to do with it about a realm

988
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 1: of paper. About two sheets of those papers say something

989
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: about private lands. And basically it says thou shalt not

990
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: kill and in dangered species intentionally absolute, except for some cases,

991
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: and it's some nuanced exceptions with wolves and other things.

992
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: And and thou shalt not take an endangered species incidental

993
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: to any other land use practice. That's it. I want

994
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: to say that last part again. Now, shalt not take

995
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: an endangered species as an as it being incidental to

996
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: an otherwise legal land use practice. An example of that,

997
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: and the example of an AWCEL lot is if you've

998
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: got a fence line that runs through ault habitat and

999
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: you were to disturb the habitat by clearing out that

1000
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: fence line, that might be considered by US Fision Wildlife

1001
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: Service to be an action that alters the behavior or

1002
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: the breeding probabilities of AWCEL lots, and therefore it's a

1003
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: prohibited act under the FOLI. I think that they would

1004
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: lead to, like the direct death of not that it

1005
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: could lead to. That's that's what it originally was meant

1006
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: for in the Act, but it's interpreted now as deteriorating

1007
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: habitat type or whatever effecting the behavior take take just

1008
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: affect sure. Yeah, And of course that you know we

1009
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: came up with that in what nineteen seventy two, right,

1010
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: And so we're driving in nineteen seventy two Ford Galaxy

1011
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: five hundred policy, trying to work with two thousand and

1012
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: twenty conditions, trying to work with things like groups of

1013
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: landowners that are trying to work with the U. S.

1014
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: Fish and Wilife Service to figure out how to recover

1015
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: an endangered species, and the Fish and Wilife Service, sometimes

1016
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: through no fault of their own, can't figure out how

1017
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 1: to get out of the way and to let it happen.

1018
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: And you know, it's been called at least once vigilante conservation.

1019
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: You know, when that was first laid out there that way,

1020
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: I thought, well, it's kind of a pejorative term. But

1021
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: then when you really think about it, vigilante is a

1022
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: group of citizens that have taken up a cause because

1023
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: the officials that are supposed to be doing it have

1024
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: abandoned the cause. And so it will be an example

1025
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: of vigilante conservations. Vigilante conservation would be a a group

1026
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: of a group of landowners. For example, in in this

1027
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: particular situation, we have landowners that know they have awesol

1028
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: lots that would like to do three or four things.

1029
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: One is to survey for those awful lots to know

1030
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: where they are, where they are, and how many of

1031
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: them there are. Well, if you do that, then there's

1032
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: some confidentiality standards that those landowners would like. They'd like

1033
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: for that information not to be leaked to the US

1034
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife Service simply because the Fish and Wildlife

1035
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: Service would then have to make that available to a

1036
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: lot of these organizations that would file lawsuits and force

1037
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: the Fish and Wildlife Service too do the two things

1038
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: at landowners like don't like to hear, and that's enforce

1039
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: and have the authority over and so if they don't, okay,

1040
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 1: if you want, like a rancher wants to know, or

1041
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: landowner wants to know, do I have them? I think

1042
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 1: they're they're like maybe they're like, I think they're totally cool.

1043
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: I wish I had more. I'd like to know if

1044
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: I have one, But I don't want the FEDS to

1045
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 1: know who are they trusting to sort of like keep track.

1046
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: That's the that's the problem. And part of the problem

1047
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: is you're you're inclined to not allow people like Mike

1048
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: Toois to put his graduate students and researchers on the

1049
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: ground to survey for awesol lots because it's trouble. You know,

1050
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: we think there's somewhere in the neighborhood of one hundred

1051
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: awesol lots in Texas. There could be more. It's it's

1052
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: an unknown so that's an extrapolation, right. We don't know

1053
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: how many of there are. We don't know exactly where

1054
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: they are. We've got some known populations. One known population

1055
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,919
Speaker 1: is on the East Foundations l Sal's Ranch, so we've

1056
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 1: got the largest population known. And we're not afraid of

1057
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 1: the Dangered Species Act or the U. S. Fish and

1058
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service. Uh, perhaps foolishly, but nevertheless, we're not afraid.

1059
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 1: We're you know, we're going to continue to to work

1060
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 1: the research management recovery system and we feel like it's

1061
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: a stewardship responsibility as do other ranchers to recover that species.

1062
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 1: There's for for whatever reason and and and it can

1063
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: be a religious reason, it can be a reason that look,

1064
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: we don't want this to go out on my watch,

1065
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: whatever that is. But but you've got to take into

1066
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: account in that at least in that part of the state,

1067
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: in the state that has DT two million acres of

1068
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:02,439
Speaker 1: private lands. Those private landowners are buying large the best

1069
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: conservationists there are, I mean, they care about that land.

1070
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: They care, and they've got a stake in it, and

1071
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: they've got a stake in the future reputation for themselves

1072
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: as ranchers and caretakers of that of that ground. That's

1073
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: the scenario we're finding with awesol lots as we just

1074
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 1: simply are trying to figure out how to get rid

1075
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: of the disincentives and be able to assure private landowners

1076
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: in and around that awful lot population that they can

1077
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 1: allow monitoring research and then proactive measures for say translocation. Uh.

1078
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: We're doing things like collecting semen from Maile awesol lots

1079
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: so that we can perhaps and pregnate Zoo awesol lots

1080
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 1: and have offspring that we might be able to either

1081
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: from a wild population or from or from that cross

1082
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: At Zoo population create another translocated population elsewhere so that

1083
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: we don't have to worry about that next hurricane that

1084
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 1: comes through turning into a Category four. I mean, the

1085
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: clock is ticking on that type of catastrophe when you

1086
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: get a population confined to that small of a geographic

1087
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: area and they're that small. If you had to if

1088
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: you had to characterize the UM, if you had to

1089
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: characterize the sort of anti fed sentiment around. Let's say

1090
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: someone is they know their family knows they have oslots

1091
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: on their property. UM, they don't want to be rolled

1092
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: up into any kind of activities with the scientific community

1093
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 1: at a federal level for fear that someone's gonna come

1094
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 1: in and go like, oh my gosh, you do have

1095
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 1: awesl lots. I'm shotting this place down because you know

1096
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be allowed to do X, Y and z. UM,

1097
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:57,479
Speaker 1: maybe you're not gonna be able to do the very

1098
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: things that made it it was a good as loot

1099
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: habitat anyways, like sort of having economic viability on your property,

1100
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: which makes it that you don't need to develop it

1101
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: for instance exactly. But do you find it like the

1102
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: average sentiment that's like the anti fed sentiment is educated

1103
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: in precise meaning they're like, oh, I would love to

1104
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: tell them, but if I tell them, then this could

1105
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 1: happen to me and it would look like this. Or

1106
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: is it just generally I hate the fetes I gets

1107
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: across the board obviously, because I mean, you've got I mean,

1108
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 1: in our our state, we've got three fifty thousand decision makers,

1109
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 1: three fifty thousand landowners, So it's going to be across

1110
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 1: the board there. So and and there's experiences that they've

1111
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: seen with other species. So you take something like the

1112
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: golden cheek warbler that may have been used in some

1113
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: cases to halt development in and around the Austin area,

1114
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: and take something like the Dunes sagebrush lizard that in

1115
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: some cases was used to halt oil and gas development

1116
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 1: in the Permian Basin, like was used opportunistically. Sure was

1117
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: like if someone wanted a thing to happen and that

1118
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 1: was the way to make it, or something wanted something

1119
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: to not happen, and that bird or that lizard was

1120
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: a way to make it not happen. That gave you

1121
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:21,919
Speaker 1: legal legal It gave you legal grounds to get your way.

1122
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: Now we've got the flip side of the coin with

1123
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: awesol lot Really interestingly, there's there's the organizations that use

1124
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 1: it as a mascot for fundraising that that then don't

1125
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: do much for the aucel lot um we've got. Uh.

1126
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: I think it's a this is a good thing. Our

1127
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,439
Speaker 1: Texas Department of Transportation, You can get an AWESOL lot

1128
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: license plate. There's more AWESOL lot license plates in Texas

1129
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: than there are awesome lots in Texas. And you can see,

1130
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: in fact, you can see more driving between San Antonio

1131
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 1: and Austin. You can see more Awesol lot license plates

1132
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: then there are awesome lots in deep South Texas. So

1133
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: people love them. You'll see ranchers with US a lot

1134
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: license place, and you know, ranchers love them. They want

1135
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 1: to figure out how to recover awes lots without putting

1136
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: large ownerships that are depend on economic viability at at stake,

1137
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:18,919
Speaker 1: and so they need assurances and so and I think

1138
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 1: it's I think it boils down to, you know, just

1139
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: raw trust and economics. And it's not just the and

1140
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 1: And it's not that there's bad people to the US

1141
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 1: Fishing Wildife Services, good people. Um, they're they're caught managing

1142
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 1: an act that in some cases is antiquated, and they're

1143
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 1: sophisticated organizations that have figured out how to soothe them.

1144
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 1: And they know. In every conversation you'll have with the

1145
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: Fishing Wildlife Service over anything, it'll all come down to,

1146
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: you know, Okay, what happens when you know group X,

1147
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 1: Group Y or group Z uh SUSA because we've worked

1148
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: out a deal with you as a private landowner. So Okay,

1149
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,479
Speaker 1: here's how we're gonna here's how we're gonna make sure

1150
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 1: that we're uh fully solid on our conservation measures. Uh,

1151
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: we're legal on maintaining confidentiality, all of these hoops that

1152
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 1: you've got to jump through, and for some landowners, they

1153
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 1: just look, I'm suspicious when I have to apply for permits,

1154
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: when you're telling me you have enforcement authority over me

1155
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 1: and those types of things. We I think, in the

1156
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: spirit of antiquated and sophisticated, uh, we should probably h

1157
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: take a quick crack at defining vigilante again, I think, uh,

1158
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:53,480
Speaker 1: I mean if that was, if I may slightly romanticized

1159
01:08:53,560 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: textan definition of vigilanti where uh oftentimes, especially if we

1160
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: look back through history at our vigilanti groups. Uh, some

1161
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 1: would characterize the Texas Rangers as one of them. That

1162
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 1: they aren't just folks stepping in and taking care of

1163
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: things that aren't getting done. Uh, Like it's implied that

1164
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 1: it's like justice being done, but oftentimes that's um some

1165
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 1: self serving justice as well. Right, So yeah, if you

1166
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: top it with the word conservation. Then you're sort of

1167
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: qualifying it from vigilanty. Uh asshole is um. Yeah, yeah,

1168
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm fine with that. That's a fair that's a fair

1169
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 1: comment because if I vigilanti charity, vigilanty charity, you'd be like,

1170
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but it sounds like

1171
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 1: a good thing. Yeah, it sounds like somebody throwing money

1172
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: out the window. That's great. So I was letting it

1173
01:09:56,200 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: ride because it's a vigilanti conservation, not vigilanti type. Take

1174
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 1: a push at it because I use that one all

1175
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: the time. So no, I think just revisiting that point

1176
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 1: is all that was needed. So the computer is spoken.

1177
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 1: Uh e s. A reform like Endangered Species Act reform

1178
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 1: is one of those things. I'm like, you hear it

1179
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,600
Speaker 1: all the time, and I'm leary about it because I

1180
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,640
Speaker 1: support it, but I probably don't support it in the

1181
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 1: way that other people support it. It's one of those

1182
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: things that's become to mean. It's become it's like it's

1183
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 1: happening to the word conservation, like I could say on

1184
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: pro conservation, like different politicians say on pro conservation. You're like,

1185
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: what exactly do you mean? And you realize that they're

1186
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: talking about something that you're not talking about, and a

1187
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 1: lot of people to talk about Endangered Species Act reform,

1188
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 1: A significant amount are saying what I mean by that

1189
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 1: is I would like the damn thing to go away.

1190
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 1: In a significant amount are saying I mean that it

1191
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 1: could be more effective if we change it and make

1192
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 1: it more flexible to account for like what you're talking about, UM,

1193
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 1: in the situation of the OUs lot. So for me

1194
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: to now say, if someone asked, like, do you support

1195
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act reform, I'd have to say, um, I'll

1196
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 1: have to ask you a series of questions before I answer,

1197
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: because I don't know what you're getting at. I agree

1198
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: with you, I'm when I say that, and I don't

1199
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,559
Speaker 1: say reform often, I just say changes to the Endangered

1200
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: Species Act or how it's administered, and I don't care which.

1201
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 1: I'm looking for better performance on private lands? Why that?

1202
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: What's the what's the big deal there? When you look

1203
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 1: at more than one third of endangered species that are

1204
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 1: currently listed entirely depend on private lands, and somewhere in

1205
01:11:55,439 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 1: the neighborhood of seventy have a large portion of their

1206
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: range across private lands. So if we've got an endangered

1207
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:08,639
Speaker 1: Species Act that's not performing as well as it could

1208
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 1: perform on private lands, then maybe it needs some reform.

1209
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 1: But I get it about being worried about cracking the

1210
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: Act open. You know, if we're driving that nineteen seventy

1211
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: two Galaxy five hundred, you know, we crack it open,

1212
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: and we want to reopolster the seats and put a new,

1213
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 1: more efficient engine in it so it's not getting three

1214
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:30,559
Speaker 1: miles to the gallon. Somebody else might want to put

1215
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 1: some whole bunch of other stuff in there that you know,

1216
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 1: and oftentimes you'll hear people just lay out, you know,

1217
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 1: the one liner, well, the Act needs more teeth. Well,

1218
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 1: that's one of those things that means a different thing

1219
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 1: to different people. You know. Oftentimes when someone says that,

1220
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 1: they basically mean we want the Fishing Wilife Service to

1221
01:12:56,040 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 1: be more like policeman and enforcement officers rather than doing

1222
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 1: whatever it takes by any means possible to result in

1223
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 1: the recovery of endangered species across all lands, where there's

1224
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 1: public lands or private lands. I think it would be

1225
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 1: phenomenal if we could find ways to better if we

1226
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: could find ways to better work with private landowners on

1227
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 1: E s A issues, in a way that still allowed

1228
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 1: the ultimate goal to move forward. But I do think

1229
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 1: that the way we do it now and the way

1230
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 1: that we handle private interests leads to a thing where

1231
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the spotted owl syndrome, where a

1232
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 1: spotted owl, after the whole debacle with logging and spoted

1233
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,679
Speaker 1: awl a spot it all didn't mean that word didn't

1234
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:47,840
Speaker 1: mean a bird anymore. Like when you hear the words

1235
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 1: spotted out, you don't think like, oh, it's a little

1236
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 1: owl that lives an old girl force. You think like,

1237
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: spotted owl is federal overreach, right, because there are things

1238
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 1: that we do that really there are things that we

1239
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 1: do in the service of prolonging or saving species that

1240
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: makes them have like this entirely negative connotation in people's

1241
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 1: heads who have to suffer with it most. And I

1242
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:11,960
Speaker 1: think and around here in this neck of the woods,

1243
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 1: the most egregious examples are what's been done to people

1244
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 1: around es A listing for wolves and e s A

1245
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:24,560
Speaker 1: listings for grizzlies, which they've been recovered by definition for decades.

1246
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:28,879
Speaker 1: Yet you continue to make it hard on private landowners

1247
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 1: to go about their business because we like sure move

1248
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: they move the goal pulls all along, and then that

1249
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,720
Speaker 1: creates this sort of like this anti wolf sentiment, this

1250
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 1: anti grizzly sentiment, that I don't think it's necessary to

1251
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:47,599
Speaker 1: create the anti wolf, anti grizzly sentiment, Like I don't

1252
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:50,240
Speaker 1: think that you have to make that in order to

1253
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 1: save those things. There has been a way to reduce

1254
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 1: the friction and still hit the ultimate outcome, and it

1255
01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:00,719
Speaker 1: would probably come around from some form of reform. Sure,

1256
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:03,640
Speaker 1: And I know what you're talking about. I was a

1257
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:07,120
Speaker 1: I was a wilife biologist for a timber company in

1258
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,519
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest in the early nineteen nineties, and so

1259
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,200
Speaker 1: I was hated from both sides, right because I was

1260
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 1: inside the timber company, so I was hated by our loggersogist,

1261
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:18,720
Speaker 1: and I was a biologist, so I was hated by

1262
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 1: the you know the others. But learn learn to learn

1263
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:24,800
Speaker 1: to work put habitat conservation plans together so that we

1264
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:30,520
Speaker 1: could live with the spotted out There were huge financial

1265
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,680
Speaker 1: reasons to do that, and so they're in the in

1266
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest around spotted owl's, marble, murletts, Pacific salmon.

1267
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:42,679
Speaker 1: There's huge financial interests at being able to put together

1268
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 1: some type of collaborative deal, a habitat conservation plan that

1269
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 1: worked for private lands and worked for endangered species. We

1270
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have that with all species in all places.

1271
01:15:56,760 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: You know, when you've got a small salamander that shuts down,

1272
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 1: uh what you think is a housing development that ought

1273
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 1: to ought to go forward, you're likely to just shake

1274
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 1: your fist. If you're the housing developer at that salamander.

1275
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: Figure out how you can hide the fact that it's there.

1276
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 1: You know, we don't want it on our property. It

1277
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 1: be it, It in and of itself becomes the enemy. Right,

1278
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 1: We've got to figure out how to remove the distincentives

1279
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 1: and and this is the canned comment, right, remove the

1280
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:32,040
Speaker 1: distancentives and create incentives. And that's easy to say, it's

1281
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 1: hard to do. It's a really hard thing to do

1282
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:38,679
Speaker 1: to create those out of the box incentives that always

1283
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 1: work with private landowners. But it is dual. What's the

1284
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 1: thing that landowners are primarily worried about. If people know

1285
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 1: they have oss lines, is that that they're worried about

1286
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 1: being able to drill like oil extraction, Like, what's the

1287
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 1: thing that they're mostly worried about losing? They're mostly worried

1288
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 1: about losing their ability to make spot decisions on land use. So,

1289
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 1: for example, uh, the fence line situation I was telling about,

1290
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:17,759
Speaker 1: I've you know, I've I've been worried on our own

1291
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 1: lands about road clearing and habitat that we might lose

1292
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 1: when we need to come in and clear an area

1293
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 1: so that we can increase increase the forage production capacity

1294
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 1: for the land, those types of decisions. But branches creating

1295
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 1: a pasture exactly exactly, we need to make sure that

1296
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:43,719
Speaker 1: you know, we're not We're in a situation where we've

1297
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 1: got on staff scientists, biologists and managers that no one

1298
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 1: understand that so we can craft a solution. We've got

1299
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 1: our friend right next door with Mike Toois, who's the

1300
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:59,200
Speaker 1: you know, a pre eminent, awesome lot ecologist. But not

1301
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 1: every e landowner fields that comfortable and they tend If

1302
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 1: you're a large ranch, you might have a family that

1303
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: you're responsible to and a board of directors that you're

1304
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 1: responsible to, and you've got a fiduciary responsibility to make

1305
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: sure that you don't lose your ability to manage that land,

1306
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,599
Speaker 1: you don't lose your ability to graze a ten thousand

1307
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:29,120
Speaker 1: acre pasture. Let's say, uh, we've got to figure out

1308
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:33,479
Speaker 1: how to make sure that people don't lose that they

1309
01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 1: gain the incentive or remove the disincentive for at least

1310
01:18:39,400 --> 01:18:41,599
Speaker 1: raising their hand and saying, you know, I've got awful

1311
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:45,719
Speaker 1: lots here. They are working with Caesar Clayburg group over here.

1312
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:48,880
Speaker 1: But the first way to do that is to make

1313
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 1: sure that there's some confidentiality so as they're stepping into

1314
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 1: the game, so to speak, there they can do it

1315
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:59,800
Speaker 1: with some safety and do with them. Is it, Lee,

1316
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 1: I guess it's got to be. Is it legal for

1317
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 1: someone to know that they have something? Right? Okay, let's

1318
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:13,000
Speaker 1: say it's an endangered species, right, and you got a

1319
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 1: ranch and you know what's on there. This it's not

1320
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 1: like illegal for you to keep that secret. Nothing wrong

1321
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:22,759
Speaker 1: with keeping it secret and managing for it and increasing

1322
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:27,479
Speaker 1: their numbers. But how many of these ranchers, all right,

1323
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 1: how many these ranchers are actually let's say, you know

1324
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 1: they're there? Yeah, I just want to poke at the

1325
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 1: motives here. You know they're there. You enjoy them being there.

1326
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:41,680
Speaker 1: If you could shake a magic wand and have there

1327
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 1: be more, you would do it, and there would be

1328
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 1: more you don't want to have anybody coming and tell

1329
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 1: you can't do X, Y and z to keep your

1330
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:52,840
Speaker 1: place solvent viable, to keep your property like you know

1331
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 1: in your family functioning cattle ranch, whatever you got. Um,

1332
01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 1: what are they actually like what are they doing in exchange?

1333
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 1: It's like, what are they proposing that they would do

1334
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 1: to help us lots if they could somehow let the

1335
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 1: cat out of the bag. That's a good punt. Yeah,

1336
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: Like what are they gonna what would they do to

1337
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: make more of them or like what do they do

1338
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:18,559
Speaker 1: to contribute rather than just that they're just looking for

1339
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 1: a way to not be interfered with, Like what gift

1340
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 1: are they giving to the people or what gift are

1341
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 1: they giving to the cat? So I'm gonna pitch some

1342
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,200
Speaker 1: of that to to Mike, but just to just to

1343
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:32,679
Speaker 1: comment straight out, they can be an example to other

1344
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:36,800
Speaker 1: landowners where we might translocate a population so that those

1345
01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 1: landowners would agree, Oh, I had thought about the translocation.

1346
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:44,680
Speaker 1: You know, we've got to have another population, and you

1347
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 1: know what, Look what's happening to those guys? Like, hell,

1348
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:51,800
Speaker 1: am I gonna let you let the cat loose? Here?

1349
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 1: I got you? So that's the ask that is one,

1350
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 1: there are some things that you can do and ask

1351
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 1: would be man, your place is has none, could have some?

1352
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 1: Why don't you get on board? He's like hello that

1353
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 1: the minute they let him go out here, I'm screwed.

1354
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 1: And plus plus we need to know from those landowners

1355
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:13,759
Speaker 1: just I mean, there's some real conservation benefit just knowing

1356
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:17,719
Speaker 1: exactly how many oslots there are where they are. Uh,

1357
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 1: there's some there's some long term habitat development that can

1358
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:24,760
Speaker 1: be that can be done, and ranchers no better than

1359
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 1: anybody how to develop habitat and so that Uh, I

1360
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:35,160
Speaker 1: don't know, Mike any Yeah, yeah. Frankie Terria he established

1361
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:39,200
Speaker 1: one of the first conservation easements in in nineteen eighty

1362
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 1: eight where he set aside two different tracks, each of

1363
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 1: them was only about two hundred acres each, the best

1364
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 1: offlat habitat that is left in Texas and created a

1365
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:55,639
Speaker 1: conservation easement with Fisher Wife Service. We've had eleven different

1366
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:58,759
Speaker 1: territorial aslots at the same time, all these very small

1367
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 1: core habitats, and we consider that to be a source population,

1368
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 1: a source habitat, which I I really believe that that

1369
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 1: kind of serves like the heartbeat for that population in

1370
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 1: the ranch country. We've had several instances I think at

1371
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:17,479
Speaker 1: least eight different oslots that moved from those very small

1372
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:21,720
Speaker 1: patches onto uh the east ranch there. So it's a

1373
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 1: very source. So that so that and and over the years,

1374
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 1: he added two more conservation easements with the Nature Conservancy

1375
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:31,599
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven and two thousand and nine,

1376
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,240
Speaker 1: and just about four or five years ago put the

1377
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:39,719
Speaker 1: remaining ten thousand acres into some kind of an an agreement, uh,

1378
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 1: mostly range land, but some kind of agreement to protect

1379
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: the outslet into the future. So over time, although it's

1380
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:47,720
Speaker 1: mostly grass and very little habitat and the rest of

1381
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 1: that ranch, it will eventually provide for oslots that little

1382
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 1: pocket of habitat well, and that rest of the ten

1383
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 1: thousand acres that's range land. When that starts to grow back,

1384
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:00,599
Speaker 1: grab more more carbon in the atmosp fair and that's

1385
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 1: great for brush. Ultimately that the carbon and that the

1386
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 1: atmosphere will help the brush. I want to explain that, Well, no,

1387
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:10,160
Speaker 1: you're more of arrange. Arrange how you threw that one

1388
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:13,679
Speaker 1: out there. Now we're now we're gonna rabbit trail long.

1389
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 1: But you mean like carbon in the atmosphere, decreases grassland

1390
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:21,800
Speaker 1: and increases brush, increases the opportunity for brush for brush growth. Yeah,

1391
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 1: so it leads a grassland loss, right, huh, Right, in

1392
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:30,639
Speaker 1: what capacity because for precipitation changes or no, it's actually

1393
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:33,640
Speaker 1: the now I'm not an expert on this. The biochemical

1394
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 1: changes that that result in the better competitive ability for

1395
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:43,840
Speaker 1: woody species versus grass to actually capture the resources on

1396
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:48,120
Speaker 1: the site. Yeah, water so here like juniper encroachment and

1397
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 1: stuff that could there's some factor there that could be

1398
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 1: linked to, like more carbon or less carbon in the

1399
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 1: atmosphere that could lead a juniper encroachment. Did you out

1400
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,720
Speaker 1: that carbon thing? You shouldn't fill that car that we

1401
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 1: don't we don't need to hang on. I never heard that. Man,

1402
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:06,920
Speaker 1: that's interesting. Slip one in what's still I'm I'm confused

1403
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:11,520
Speaker 1: at why what's preventing if we have these core populations

1404
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 1: and you know that they are breeding right, and we're

1405
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:19,559
Speaker 1: not trapping them and shooting them legally as much as

1406
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 1: we were a hundred years ago, and so how come

1407
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:24,759
Speaker 1: we just don't have like a just a general increase

1408
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 1: in population. And this excellent question, excellent question. The couple

1409
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:32,240
Speaker 1: of things. One is they all thought as a habitat specialist.

1410
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 1: It seeks a finery, It seeks the densest brush that

1411
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:41,640
Speaker 1: you can find. Horizontal cover is ideal for that. And

1412
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:44,839
Speaker 1: keep explaining that horizontal the shrub layer, the shrub layers

1413
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:48,839
Speaker 1: fifteen feet or shorter, that's where the shrub layer occurs.

1414
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,920
Speaker 1: And also throughout the range where use different vegetation communities,

1415
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 1: but a common factor is extremely dense cover near the

1416
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:59,320
Speaker 1: ground where the operations. But what's the percentage? That mean?

1417
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:04,440
Speaker 1: If you if you did a measuring line or transsect

1418
01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 1: over over the brush, it's called line intercept or more,

1419
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:11,040
Speaker 1: that would be solid brush. It would be just a

1420
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,840
Speaker 1: wall of brush. And so they're very selective on that.

1421
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:16,720
Speaker 1: And twice once in the eighties and the nineties we

1422
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 1: flew transac of low. I was so confused. Picture like

1423
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 1: a very nice lawn. Okay, huh, that would be zero

1424
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:30,760
Speaker 1: percent in picture you're an aunt going through a very

1425
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 1: thick lawn. Would that aunt say this is one brush

1426
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:37,800
Speaker 1: coverage as he finagles his way through a thick girl.

1427
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 1: Depends on your grass, I guess you know, if you

1428
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:42,880
Speaker 1: have a solid standard grass, yeah, if it's botty, maybe not,

1429
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:46,080
Speaker 1: but okay, so if you measured that's them saying like

1430
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:49,599
Speaker 1: if you measure one d centimeters. So I take a

1431
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:52,040
Speaker 1: thing that has a hundred centimeters and a stick, and

1432
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 1: I hold that stick up. Nine point five of those

1433
01:25:56,080 --> 01:26:00,040
Speaker 1: centimeter marks are going to have a piece of vegetation it.

1434
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:01,720
Speaker 1: There are a few different ways to measure, but the

1435
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:05,439
Speaker 1: one I've always liked it's called line intercept. You do

1436
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:09,760
Speaker 1: a tape measure for say ten feet, and then you

1437
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:12,400
Speaker 1: you identify what's called the drip line of each shrub

1438
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:16,680
Speaker 1: individual shrub where the full edge canopy, and then you

1439
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 1: consider that continuous. And so if you measured over that,

1440
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:22,599
Speaker 1: that that that's what I got you, because I would

1441
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:26,720
Speaker 1: say that's thick as brush. Well yeah, And and what's

1442
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 1: interesting is those two small tracks have remained. Is what's

1443
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 1: left of that. They called it the l harding. Back

1444
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:34,559
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds, before the real Grand Valley

1445
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 1: was cleared, there was a lot of of the l

1446
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 1: harding the garden Spanish just solid brush, and that was

1447
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:44,600
Speaker 1: one of the last vestiges of the core population of oslots.

1448
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 1: What's kind of ironic is, prior to the Spanish explorations

1449
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 1: that occurred in the sixteen hundreds. There are a lot

1450
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:56,080
Speaker 1: of accounts of South Texas being a grassland or primarily

1451
01:26:56,080 --> 01:26:59,679
Speaker 1: a grassland. So that probably wasn't really good alsodde habitat,

1452
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 1: except along the rivers where you had the really dense brush.

1453
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:09,000
Speaker 1: Over time, because of the stopping the fire and overgrazing,

1454
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:11,479
Speaker 1: you've had more encroachion the brush over time, and that's

1455
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:14,240
Speaker 1: benefit of the oslots. So we've we've actually helped the

1456
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:16,679
Speaker 1: oslots in some places in some ways. And there's some

1457
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:19,680
Speaker 1: some places like the awesome population on the Attorney. So

1458
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:22,479
Speaker 1: there's a there's a ranch there called the Punta del Monte,

1459
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:25,280
Speaker 1: and that's just the point of brush, the point of

1460
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 1: the woodland. Yeah, and so that that was the old Spanish.

1461
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:32,639
Speaker 1: Even as thick as we've seen it on the multiple

1462
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 1: South Texas ranches that we've gotten to hunt on, it's

1463
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:40,000
Speaker 1: still not thick enough. Probably not because the rancher, if

1464
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:42,439
Speaker 1: he has a rider horse through that says it's thick.

1465
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,280
Speaker 1: But it's a very special kind of thick. And we've

1466
01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:47,679
Speaker 1: done surveys and we found that less than one percent,

1467
01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: really less than one half of one percent of South

1468
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 1: Texas has that very special cover type less than one

1469
01:27:53,160 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 1: half of one. That they mean they called the brush country. Yeah,

1470
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 1: they used to be. They need to have an aster

1471
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 1: after kind of Yeah, the brushy kind of brushy country. Yeah,

1472
01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:12,439
Speaker 1: so that's that's. That's that, like answers his question, like,

1473
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:14,320
Speaker 1: why are they not if we're not just out shooting

1474
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:16,439
Speaker 1: Willy Nillion trapping him. Well, that's part of it. But

1475
01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:20,719
Speaker 1: important part is the very poor dispersers, because that's spotting

1476
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:22,800
Speaker 1: pattern that they have. They stick out like a sore

1477
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,559
Speaker 1: thumb in the open, so they need that dense brush

1478
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:28,000
Speaker 1: to move from one air to the other. Those two

1479
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:31,519
Speaker 1: populations are separated by less than thirty miles, and over

1480
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 1: thirty five years we've never documented one. I'll stop moving

1481
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 1: to the other. That's even that just that's what I

1482
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 1: wanted to ask, is what's the when you're throwing a

1483
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 1: collar on one of them? What's the farthest you've ever

1484
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 1: seen one of them go wearing a collar? Miles? Uh?

1485
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 1: And that went from the ranch of population down to

1486
01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:50,679
Speaker 1: what we call the port Haarle engine. Typically it's about

1487
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:54,320
Speaker 1: ten miles and that usually ends unsuccessfully being killed on

1488
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 1: the road. Him. Well, well that he was killed on

1489
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:00,400
Speaker 1: the road to that the longest one was there. That's

1490
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 1: how we find him. They killed the road. So this

1491
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 1: ideal of the disconnection, or they went the farthest far,

1492
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:10,360
Speaker 1: they normally fall. We went far and they normally make it,

1493
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 1: but succumb to the same thing. Yeah, yeah, And the

1494
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:16,200
Speaker 1: problem is they go into the highly developed real Grand

1495
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:19,599
Speaker 1: Valley and there's a tense road network there, so it's

1496
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:21,960
Speaker 1: just a gauntlet once they leave the population. They're going

1497
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:26,439
Speaker 1: through a gauntlet that often is on the road. Do

1498
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:29,519
Speaker 1: they head when you got a collar on one? Do

1499
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:32,600
Speaker 1: they head in a direction that makes sense? You know,

1500
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 1: I've always thought about that doesn't have a map? He

1501
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:39,519
Speaker 1: has no. We don't really understand the stuff though, because

1502
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:42,400
Speaker 1: like you look at, I don't know all kinds of

1503
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:45,960
Speaker 1: stuff man, like humpback whales, bowhead whales. See these very

1504
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,600
Speaker 1: seed turtle species that do insane stuff. My brother had

1505
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of pigeons that were born in his yard.

1506
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:53,519
Speaker 1: One day, he drove the pigeons an hour and a

1507
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:56,679
Speaker 1: half away and they beat him home. Yeah, well we left.

1508
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 1: We use homing pigeons, So I don't know that he

1509
01:30:01,200 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 1: in his head head and those examples are different and

1510
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 1: a lot of those birds may use magnetic fields of

1511
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:11,280
Speaker 1: the stars, isn't not cats? My point being, there could

1512
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:16,559
Speaker 1: be some thing we don't yet understand the cat boogiesy

1513
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,680
Speaker 1: boogies in a way that at least kind of makes sense. Sure, Yeah,

1514
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm always we by no means know everything, And I

1515
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:25,840
Speaker 1: always in as a scientist, you have to be open

1516
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:29,360
Speaker 1: that you don't know everything. And but but I think

1517
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:31,679
Speaker 1: about it a lot, and and and the oslots world

1518
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:35,479
Speaker 1: is in the dark, and it can only see two

1519
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 1: ft above the ground, and it's it's immediate world is

1520
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:42,720
Speaker 1: surrounded by brush. It's in a very enclosed world. So

1521
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 1: when it boogie somewhere you know it's you kind of

1522
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 1: wonder what kind of cues it's it's it's homing into

1523
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 1: some natural drainages. I think maybe a rough factor, uh,

1524
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 1: or maybe at a distance they can't see that far

1525
01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:58,600
Speaker 1: in the distance because of those factors, it's really in it,

1526
01:30:59,160 --> 01:31:00,760
Speaker 1: and so they don't have a map and they usually

1527
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:04,559
Speaker 1: get in trouble. One more, I guess the same question

1528
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 1: different way. Do the ones that take off take off

1529
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 1: in the same direction or is it really nilly? I

1530
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 1: think there may be some generality for that and again

1531
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:18,320
Speaker 1: it probably related to the drainages, whatever cues that they

1532
01:31:18,400 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 1: see and that I don't. I don't know. If there's

1533
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:22,160
Speaker 1: a big open grass sand, most of them won't go

1534
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:24,960
Speaker 1: that way. But if there's some cover, some level of

1535
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 1: coverlet even if it's brush or something else, they prefer

1536
01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:32,920
Speaker 1: that over agricultural filled. So there may be some roughness,

1537
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 1: but it's a I think for for a lot of

1538
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: the cats, it's almost a random thing. I'll tell you why.

1539
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 1: I asked, Uh. I had one time in my mom's

1540
01:31:43,640 --> 01:31:46,240
Speaker 1: storage shed, I attend live snap and turtles in there.

1541
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 1: She have the door open, and um, they all went

1542
01:31:52,320 --> 01:31:56,120
Speaker 1: the right direction, and I later thought, it has to

1543
01:31:56,200 --> 01:32:00,320
Speaker 1: be downhill, Yeah, down the pitch, I would I would

1544
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 1: guess that, you know, for terms like they had to

1545
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 1: have gotten the yard and because I was following a

1546
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:06,400
Speaker 1: bunch up and down the beach, they were all going

1547
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 1: and it hadn't been that they just following the contour. Yeah,

1548
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:12,800
Speaker 1: Like why why would Snap turns like I need to

1549
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:15,160
Speaker 1: get to the water. I'm not gonna go uphill. Yeah,

1550
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:18,920
Speaker 1: I bet there are some cues like that that different taxons,

1551
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, we spawn different ways. That's interesting, Like anytime

1552
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:25,080
Speaker 1: I have a head of the water has always been downhill.

1553
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 1: So if you're playing crashes in the mountains, you follow

1554
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:33,360
Speaker 1: the creeks down. Uh. Yeah, when we're laying out some

1555
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:35,800
Speaker 1: when you were working with Krenda put down some some

1556
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:39,520
Speaker 1: things that we wanted to discuss. You had three motivations

1557
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:42,439
Speaker 1: that drive awesole lots. And then parenthetically, it says and

1558
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:49,400
Speaker 1: most small cats is uh, sex, hunger, and fear. I've

1559
01:32:49,479 --> 01:32:52,600
Speaker 1: learned that from my my my two outdoor cats that

1560
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:55,880
Speaker 1: are pretty walled, and I just sit around and watch them,

1561
01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 1: and they watch out because Cali hunt them down and

1562
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:03,040
Speaker 1: kill them. Cal's down an anti cat crease, not farrel cats. Well, no,

1563
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:05,559
Speaker 1: I I appreciate them more than most. A soft man

1564
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:08,320
Speaker 1: with a dog a hard man with a cat. Yeah,

1565
01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 1: I like dogs. I like dogs more cal. I like

1566
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 1: dogs more than cats. But I I keep a few

1567
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:21,880
Speaker 1: around for behavioral observations. Any animal, it helps you out tremendously.

1568
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: There there's so many cues that help hunters, and it's

1569
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:28,680
Speaker 1: well worth your time to have an animal in your

1570
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:33,320
Speaker 1: life and and be an anti cat. It isn't entirely correct.

1571
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:41,120
Speaker 1: I am shocked at the duality of UH. People's morals

1572
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:46,360
Speaker 1: when it comes to domestic cat. Yeah that you don't

1573
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:48,600
Speaker 1: like the guy that haunts two pheasants a year, But

1574
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:54,040
Speaker 1: meanwhile your cat, uh that that that ferrell in free

1575
01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:57,560
Speaker 1: wandering house cats kill more birds than there are Americans

1576
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:02,600
Speaker 1: every year. Yes, yeah, um, and I did on this subject,

1577
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:07,960
Speaker 1: like what what is the is there overlap between a

1578
01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:12,800
Speaker 1: domestic cat population and is there a concern for UH

1579
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:17,120
Speaker 1: disease transmission that toxoplasmosis I believe is what it is

1580
01:34:17,439 --> 01:34:20,040
Speaker 1: a good question. Yeah, there there's right near the Old

1581
01:34:20,080 --> 01:34:23,320
Speaker 1: South Ranch is this small community of a hundred people

1582
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:26,120
Speaker 1: called Port Mansfield. And there've been some studies that have

1583
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:30,439
Speaker 1: shown feline leuchemia or some disease. Hundred people, two thousand

1584
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:35,000
Speaker 1: cats go ahead, well you probably yeah, And and and

1585
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:37,920
Speaker 1: what I worry about them is a bobcats probably coming

1586
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 1: into town or the edge of town, which they frequently do,

1587
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:43,679
Speaker 1: getting that disease to bobcat and then into the OSLA

1588
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:46,760
Speaker 1: population only about four or five miles away. So and

1589
01:34:47,000 --> 01:34:48,920
Speaker 1: and that's one thing where we worry about. Maine is

1590
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 1: another thing. Coyotes will get mange, usually a different kind

1591
01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:55,840
Speaker 1: of mange. UH cast will getting go to Edric Maine

1592
01:34:55,880 --> 01:34:59,639
Speaker 1: and they get sarcoptic mange. But we worry about house cats.

1593
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:05,040
Speaker 1: But usually cats won't live too long. Coyotes will kill them. Uh,

1594
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:09,080
Speaker 1: great horned owls will kill them in the wild all

1595
01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:11,639
Speaker 1: the surprisingly. Some places you can find some house cats,

1596
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:13,559
Speaker 1: but most of the time they won't live too long

1597
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 1: in the world. How did they arrange themselves? Like, when

1598
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:23,120
Speaker 1: you have a little population, you have to imagine that

1599
01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:26,360
Speaker 1: they're structured somehow, right, I mean they're interacting with each other.

1600
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:31,360
Speaker 1: You're talking about all sorts of housecat Okay, yeah, oslots, Yeah,

1601
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:35,799
Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of a typical system social organization.

1602
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:38,920
Speaker 1: See for the thirty three species of small cats. Most

1603
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:42,240
Speaker 1: people realize that, but I'm just amazed that thirty three

1604
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:45,720
Speaker 1: species of small cats, and many of them show the

1605
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:49,400
Speaker 1: same system. Where the strategy of the female is to

1606
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:51,960
Speaker 1: breed and find a home range that's big enough that

1607
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 1: will support her young, raising her young over a year

1608
01:35:56,560 --> 01:36:00,720
Speaker 1: or two, even with variations of drought wet periods. But

1609
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 1: the male's strategy is to try to and she so

1610
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:06,640
Speaker 1: the female wants to make sure her young survived to

1611
01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:11,160
Speaker 1: breeding age. And uh, the male strategy is not does

1612
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 1: not take part of care taking for the young, but

1613
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:16,760
Speaker 1: it wants to breed with as many females as it can,

1614
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:20,479
Speaker 1: so that male is monitoring the territory of one female

1615
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:23,679
Speaker 1: to females or sometimes three, and that means it spends

1616
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:26,400
Speaker 1: a lot of his time traveling and checking to find

1617
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:29,519
Speaker 1: out when the female is inestius are reproductively active. And

1618
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,360
Speaker 1: if it wants to add overlap two home ranges two females,

1619
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:36,240
Speaker 1: it's moving a lot getting hit by cars. Well, yeah,

1620
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 1: I f if the roads in betweening there will be

1621
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:41,880
Speaker 1: and and there. But on the ranches where there are roads,

1622
01:36:41,960 --> 01:36:45,720
Speaker 1: they're they're moving a lot and um, and they try

1623
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:48,479
Speaker 1: so they're so they're they're optimizing their ability to spread

1624
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:51,360
Speaker 1: the genes that way the female wants. She knows that

1625
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:54,880
Speaker 1: the males aren't gonna help with with raising the young geting,

1626
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:59,000
Speaker 1: so it's really interesting strategy. And and uh and the

1627
01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:02,639
Speaker 1: males I think for many small cats, well they'll monitor

1628
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:07,560
Speaker 1: the females and probably they'll fight with other males, and

1629
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:11,160
Speaker 1: they definitely defended territories. We've had three instances of one

1630
01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:14,759
Speaker 1: male killing another male. All cats will kill other cats,

1631
01:37:15,080 --> 01:37:19,679
Speaker 1: different species, same species, um and the bigger cats killed

1632
01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:24,240
Speaker 1: the smaller cats pretty easy. But I've got a photo

1633
01:37:24,280 --> 01:37:26,720
Speaker 1: of this one outslot and the jaguar in Mexico, and

1634
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 1: you can tell it's out a watering hole and they're

1635
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:32,320
Speaker 1: they're the jaguar is about to kill that osla so

1636
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 1: so cat, and you caught him in a photo at

1637
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:39,519
Speaker 1: that moment. Well another person that Mexicans. It's it's one photo, uh,

1638
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 1: and they're both responding to the flash of the camera.

1639
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:44,600
Speaker 1: But that afla that first, there are two photos, and

1640
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:46,880
Speaker 1: that first photo that all the hair standing out on

1641
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 1: the tail of that aflot and it's one hind leg

1642
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:53,200
Speaker 1: is already looks unusual, like it's already broken. I think

1643
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: they already had a bite. That and the three seconds

1644
01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 1: later the next camera they're both looking back intensely to

1645
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:02,200
Speaker 1: each other and I benefit had another three seconds that

1646
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: ostler would be dead. So so so that's that's a problem.

1647
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:09,679
Speaker 1: But they display a lot and they try not to fight.

1648
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:13,559
Speaker 1: They sent marked their home ranges and territories. They don't

1649
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,000
Speaker 1: want to fight because if you break a canine or

1650
01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 1: you lose one eye, your chances just surviving much longer.

1651
01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:23,320
Speaker 1: It was not good if you had to crystal ball

1652
01:38:23,439 --> 01:38:25,599
Speaker 1: it right. How long You've been messing with os lots

1653
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:28,600
Speaker 1: for thirty eight years? So what year will be in

1654
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:32,680
Speaker 1: thirty eight years, it will be two thousand and No,

1655
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 1: I'm a wildlife siside. I didn't take years in uh

1656
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:52,800
Speaker 1: our oslts is gone in Texas are still around? Yes, yea, yeah, yes,

1657
01:38:52,880 --> 01:38:55,680
Speaker 1: I do because you have the East Foundation who's going

1658
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,200
Speaker 1: to work with some other landowners and do what it

1659
01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:02,720
Speaker 1: takes to maintain those into the future. I'm convinced and

1660
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:07,200
Speaker 1: hopefully get the translocation. Read about bad stuff, man, I'm

1661
01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:09,599
Speaker 1: glad to hear this. Well. You know, I probably changed

1662
01:39:09,640 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 1: my attitude five or teen years. I spent the first

1663
01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 1: thirty years pretty pessimistic and giving presentations that people come

1664
01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:18,400
Speaker 1: with at the ends. I wish you weren't so pessimistic

1665
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:21,599
Speaker 1: and a little more. Are you just being strategic by

1666
01:39:21,640 --> 01:39:26,000
Speaker 1: being optimistic? No, I really believe that you're not trying

1667
01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:28,720
Speaker 1: to play the long game a little bit with me. No, No,

1668
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 1: I really I really believe that. I think it's a

1669
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:33,760
Speaker 1: dumb and dumber approach. I mean, there's there's there's a

1670
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:36,840
Speaker 1: chance that awful lots are gonna make it, and well,

1671
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:38,479
Speaker 1: if we do the things we need to do, and

1672
01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:45,200
Speaker 1: I think we will really yeah, tell people, uh, give

1673
01:39:45,240 --> 01:39:47,720
Speaker 1: people a little rundown on what they can do to

1674
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 1: find out more about oz lots and more about the

1675
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,960
Speaker 1: work to save AWF lots. But you know how people

1676
01:39:54,040 --> 01:39:57,559
Speaker 1: might be involved. Yeah, Well one is check out our website,

1677
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:00,840
Speaker 1: the Caesar Clayburg while if Research Instant and then the

1678
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:04,240
Speaker 1: East Foundation. I'm sure that you can get some information

1679
01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:08,080
Speaker 1: from both of those, Yeah, East East Foundation dot net. Also,

1680
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:10,599
Speaker 1: we've got a feature film coming out that you've seen

1681
01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:14,240
Speaker 1: produced by by Ben Masters and finn Fur and Feather

1682
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:18,280
Speaker 1: and Caesar Clayburg and and East Foundation collaborated on that

1683
01:40:18,439 --> 01:40:21,439
Speaker 1: along with Fish and Wildlife Service. It's a thirty minute

1684
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:24,640
Speaker 1: feature on the plight of ocelots in South Texas. And

1685
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:29,080
Speaker 1: that's part of a bigger uh set of productions that

1686
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 1: um that Texan by Nature, a nonprofit that was formed

1687
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 1: by Laura Bush is helping sponsor through Finn Fur and

1688
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:44,800
Speaker 1: Feather Films. Yeah he did that. Yeah, he did that. Uh,

1689
01:40:45,120 --> 01:40:48,880
Speaker 1: and they did that Wild Horse film brand Brandon ben

1690
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:51,000
Speaker 1: Masters that fact, in fact, he spent some time here

1691
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:54,240
Speaker 1: in Bozeman every year. But that is coming out and

1692
01:40:54,360 --> 01:40:59,040
Speaker 1: that will be out in December. And uh, that's a

1693
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:02,479
Speaker 1: that's a good just basic synopsis of the issue from

1694
01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:04,920
Speaker 1: both the biological person. Well you've seen it from both

1695
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:09,880
Speaker 1: biological perspective and and it lays out the two sides

1696
01:41:09,920 --> 01:41:12,960
Speaker 1: of the issue in a little bit of an abbreviated form,

1697
01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 1: but it does. He got some incredible footage for that

1698
01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 1: as well. And real quick I mentioned Karen Hickson also

1699
01:41:18,240 --> 01:41:20,639
Speaker 1: was one of the founders of funders of that that film,

1700
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 1: But he got incredible five hours worth of film on

1701
01:41:24,120 --> 01:41:26,800
Speaker 1: the oslots a lot of it based on this one

1702
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:29,680
Speaker 1: mother and who are too young and and and the

1703
01:41:30,120 --> 01:41:33,120
Speaker 1: too young are only seen together in the very first image.

1704
01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:37,160
Speaker 1: The male dies shortly thereafter. And but from there on

1705
01:41:37,479 --> 01:41:42,080
Speaker 1: does what I total guess, but I could see easily

1706
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:45,559
Speaker 1: see a dozen things. It's stumbling into a big five

1707
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:49,040
Speaker 1: foot rattle snake on that ranch. Could he easily do it,

1708
01:41:49,160 --> 01:41:52,240
Speaker 1: a cayoity stumble, a baucat, a variety of things that

1709
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:55,560
Speaker 1: could do it, and and uh um, but and and

1710
01:41:56,080 --> 01:42:00,639
Speaker 1: he I think he has a like a one segment

1711
01:42:00,720 --> 01:42:05,200
Speaker 1: of also drinking water for six minutes. Uh, he has

1712
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:07,920
Speaker 1: another of it regurgitating It takes like two minutes for

1713
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:13,840
Speaker 1: this hostl regurgitate. It's a fascinating film. Yeah, it's a

1714
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:17,240
Speaker 1: little quirky, and it's really good. It's a it's all

1715
01:42:18,040 --> 01:42:21,200
Speaker 1: a piece and and um and and throughout that film

1716
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:25,600
Speaker 1: you see the mother training her young. It's constantly calling it,

1717
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:30,960
Speaker 1: of getting it to follow and making small vocalizations. It's

1718
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:33,799
Speaker 1: nursing it while coyotes are howling off in the distance.

1719
01:42:34,360 --> 01:42:36,600
Speaker 1: You know. It's almost like a calming effect on that,

1720
01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:39,280
Speaker 1: on that kit and nursing, and they're both sitting there

1721
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:42,640
Speaker 1: calming and calming behavior and it's leading it from one

1722
01:42:42,680 --> 01:42:46,040
Speaker 1: cover patch to another cover. So the the sex, hunger

1723
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:48,960
Speaker 1: and fear I think of pure and I get that

1724
01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:53,280
Speaker 1: from my my backyard cats. You know, the males from

1725
01:42:53,320 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 1: the neighboring houses come in for the sex. Uh. They're

1726
01:42:56,920 --> 01:43:01,040
Speaker 1: constantly hunting the birds. Uh. Then the fear is if

1727
01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:03,680
Speaker 1: I just make a noise, they're running for cover. So

1728
01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:06,960
Speaker 1: so you and and that's uh, that's throughout the catting

1729
01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:09,680
Speaker 1: the small cats. At least we drop something hopeful on you.

1730
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:12,679
Speaker 1: So we've we've worked hard with the Fishing Wildlife Service

1731
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:15,920
Speaker 1: over the last four or five years just to basically

1732
01:43:16,040 --> 01:43:21,000
Speaker 1: help them, help them understand the rancher's side of the situation.

1733
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:25,800
Speaker 1: And we have some uh, some strong and influential people

1734
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:28,479
Speaker 1: within the Fishing Wildlife Service that have got it. They've

1735
01:43:28,479 --> 01:43:31,200
Speaker 1: got it figured out, and there they are working on

1736
01:43:31,280 --> 01:43:33,840
Speaker 1: the inside to try to figure out how we can

1737
01:43:33,880 --> 01:43:37,799
Speaker 1: do this, separate aside from any reforming the Endangered Species

1738
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:39,800
Speaker 1: Act or anything like us just what can we do

1739
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 1: with what we have and how can we make this work?

1740
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:44,600
Speaker 1: And we've got some really dedicated people in there that

1741
01:43:44,720 --> 01:43:50,520
Speaker 1: shann't share the same objectives that that we share, understand

1742
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:55,320
Speaker 1: that we are serious about it. We sink more uh

1743
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:58,880
Speaker 1: funding into research on that species than anyone else, and

1744
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:01,880
Speaker 1: we're there for the long run and this is not

1745
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:05,280
Speaker 1: just a flash in the pan. And at least for me,

1746
01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:09,679
Speaker 1: I don't want that cat blinking out on my watch. Well,

1747
01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:12,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I wish your best luck in that move,

1748
01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:14,840
Speaker 1: because I think if someone's out there and and they

1749
01:44:16,720 --> 01:44:18,720
Speaker 1: would be willing to have some and willing to take

1750
01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:21,400
Speaker 1: some steps, we don't want to get steamrolled. I sure

1751
01:44:21,439 --> 01:44:24,040
Speaker 1: hope that there's a sure seems to me they we

1752
01:44:24,080 --> 01:44:27,680
Speaker 1: would uh collectively find a path forward for that individual man,

1753
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, and not have a and not

1754
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:39,040
Speaker 1: have a difficult to navigate bureaucratic bureaucratic entanglement laid out

1755
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:41,640
Speaker 1: in front of them. It's supposed to be part of

1756
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:44,640
Speaker 1: how the North American model works too. I mean, it

1757
01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:48,640
Speaker 1: really does come back and apply to Look, this is

1758
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:54,720
Speaker 1: how we are supposed to handle our our public trust. Yeah,

1759
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:58,160
Speaker 1: that we've that we have in this country. It's supposed

1760
01:44:58,240 --> 01:45:01,080
Speaker 1: to work that way. We've got a lot of things

1761
01:45:01,200 --> 01:45:03,160
Speaker 1: working that way that are run through the state game

1762
01:45:03,200 --> 01:45:05,840
Speaker 1: and fish agencies. Of course they have commissions where they

1763
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,840
Speaker 1: can turn on a dime. Many of them do Fish

1764
01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:11,920
Speaker 1: and Wildlife service. The responsibilities that they have over endangered

1765
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:14,280
Speaker 1: species a little bit different, But we've got to make

1766
01:45:14,320 --> 01:45:17,479
Speaker 1: it work within that public trust doctrine of of the

1767
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:20,439
Speaker 1: North American model. We gotta figure it out, call I

1768
01:45:20,479 --> 01:45:25,280
Speaker 1: gotta final wrap ups. Cal's gonna go vigilantia on them cats.

1769
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:33,080
Speaker 1: Wildlife management is hard, you know, I mean, it's I'm

1770
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:36,799
Speaker 1: sure there are a lot of folks trying to manage

1771
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:39,120
Speaker 1: species on the public land side of the fence that

1772
01:45:39,200 --> 01:45:42,920
Speaker 1: are staring into the private land saying how easy it

1773
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,800
Speaker 1: would be if only and I think one of the

1774
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,840
Speaker 1: you know, I mean as far as like land specifically

1775
01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:54,160
Speaker 1: managed for wildlife in the US that is privately held,

1776
01:45:54,439 --> 01:45:58,040
Speaker 1: I think you're still a larger amount of land and

1777
01:45:58,160 --> 01:46:02,120
Speaker 1: privately held acres than all all the national parks in

1778
01:46:02,160 --> 01:46:06,439
Speaker 1: the lower forty eight combined. Um, I mean land owned

1779
01:46:06,520 --> 01:46:12,200
Speaker 1: for wildlife owned, Yeah, with the stated purpose of of wildlife. Um,

1780
01:46:12,479 --> 01:46:14,360
Speaker 1: most of that, most of that's for hunting, right. And

1781
01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:20,040
Speaker 1: you know the thing that those pieces of land uh

1782
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:22,600
Speaker 1: miss that are on the public landside of things, and

1783
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:25,439
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, not all cases, is um

1784
01:46:26,280 --> 01:46:31,040
Speaker 1: the public has a voice like as as a nation

1785
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:34,880
Speaker 1: sometimes in how invested we're going to be in a species,

1786
01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:40,320
Speaker 1: and that kind of lacks on the awful lot side

1787
01:46:40,360 --> 01:46:44,360
Speaker 1: of things, Right. It's like you're gonna be doing advocacy

1788
01:46:44,439 --> 01:46:48,760
Speaker 1: work on awesol lots every every day. Yeah, I know,

1789
01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:51,920
Speaker 1: And you're like, yeah, and I'll and with the public

1790
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:54,519
Speaker 1: perspective is and I'll never see the damn thing because

1791
01:46:54,560 --> 01:46:58,000
Speaker 1: I can't go there. Cal made me think of something

1792
01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:01,320
Speaker 1: that I think that's fundamental is that these vast ranches

1793
01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:05,200
Speaker 1: and then even small ranches, they'll generate often more income

1794
01:47:05,320 --> 01:47:07,880
Speaker 1: from their hunting operation of deer and quell than they

1795
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 1: do from the cattle operation. So they have incentives to

1796
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:14,160
Speaker 1: hire a lot of our students, undergraduate graduates come and

1797
01:47:14,200 --> 01:47:18,240
Speaker 1: work on the ranches of biologists to keep the habitat there.

1798
01:47:19,080 --> 01:47:24,120
Speaker 1: And that fundamental incentive is also providing indirectly habitat for rosslots,

1799
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:26,680
Speaker 1: so that the hunting and and and uh that that

1800
01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:31,759
Speaker 1: that's there's really indirectly also benefiting oslots. Yeah, good quail habitat.

1801
01:47:32,320 --> 01:47:35,519
Speaker 1: And if you're a ranella type of fella, it's good.

1802
01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:39,120
Speaker 1: Cotton habitat is good, awful lot habitat from the sounds

1803
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 1: of it. All right, guys, thank you for coming. Enjoy it.

1804
01:47:43,160 --> 01:47:44,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It was great. Yeah, and tell

1805
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:46,479
Speaker 1: you one one more time how to how to find

1806
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:51,240
Speaker 1: you East Foundation at east Foundation dot net. You guys

1807
01:47:51,240 --> 01:47:53,639
Speaker 1: are based out of based out of San Antonio, Texas,

1808
01:47:53,720 --> 01:47:57,760
Speaker 1: but spend our time driving throughout South Texas and then

1809
01:47:58,080 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 1: Caesar Clayburg Wildlife Research Institute and it's based in Kingsville, Texas,

1810
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:05,920
Speaker 1: Texas A and M University Kingsville. All Right, thank you

1811
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:07,800
Speaker 1: very much, guys, thank you, thank you.