1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. Today's episode mentioned sexual violence 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: because we're so ignorant about rape? Why are we so 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: ignorant about rape? In a large part because of the media. 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Why because capitalism ex media incentivized for us to be 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: ignorant about it? There are no girls on the Internet. 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: As a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm Bridget Todd and this is there are no girls 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: on the Internet. It seems like moral panics about cancel 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: culture are everywhere, and partially I kind of get it. 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: It is so much easier to flatten out complex situations 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: into a cancel culture, run them up trend piece that 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: will get tons of quicks and attention, but doesn't actually 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: inform or help us understand things more clearly? So what 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: happens when we rely on lofty buzzwords like cancel culture 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: in lieu of a deeper exploration, especially for a topic 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: that's really important and sensitive like sexual violence. Recently, the 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: media outlet The Cut published a long read about a 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: teenager who they say was canceled by his classmates after 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: he non consensually shared a nude image of his girlfriend 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: with his friends. Now, there is a lot going on 21 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: in this piece and you should probably read it to 22 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: really understand today's conversation. But the main framing device and 23 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: argument is that the teenager is actually the victim of canceling. 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: And this feels really unhelpful to me. So I really 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: want to talk about what gets left out of the 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: conversation when this happens. Survivor and independent scholar willgatu Wanjuki 27 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: says that this cancel culture framing doesn't actually really get 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: us to a more useful understanding of sexual violence or 29 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: rape culture. So you have a really like long and 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: storied career as an award winning like international anti rape 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: activists and survivor justice advocate, can you tell us about Yeah, 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: it goes way back. Yeah, I guess now it is 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: way back. And my college wasn't that long ago. Yes, 34 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: it was that long ago. Um, but I started like 35 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: I started as an activist. Um, I was assaulted in 36 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: college and my school didn't handle it really well, and 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: at first I blamed myself, But then the next semester 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: actually met another survivor and we realized that it wasn't 39 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: just about our stories because we noticed a lot of 40 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: similarities with the same administrators. So we got together and 41 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: we fought for a better sexual small policy. While things 42 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: were picking up at school, I got expelled. It was 43 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: under like really shady situation, but you know, it happened, 44 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: and so I was like, all right, since I'm not 45 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: in school, I'll guess I'll take it like to the 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: internet and do more. And I would blog about it. 47 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: And that was really pivotal because other students from other 48 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: schools saw my blog, they reached out to me. We 49 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: joined forces and we asked the Obama administration to enforce 50 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: Title nine in a better way. We're saying, hey, we're 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: being failed, and they actually listened to us, which was 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: really interesting in a lot of ways. So taking from 53 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: there just seeing to power social media, but also the 54 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: power of like traditional media as well as somebody who 55 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: was like a contributor and did a lot of communications work. 56 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: So I've always have been working around media, social media, activism, 57 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: survivor rights, um policy, that sort of stuff is just 58 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: very near and dear to me. I would say the phrase, 59 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, the personals political is definitely a guiding force 60 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: for what I do. Yeah, something I really admire about 61 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: your work is the way that you're continuing to use 62 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: the Internet and digital media to educate but also sort 63 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: of entertained and really show people, you know, better ways, 64 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: better frameworks for how they can understand things like survivor, justice, consent, 65 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: and the way that those issues are playing out all 66 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: around us, whether it's on reality TV and our culture 67 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: in the news. You're really somebody who I think is 68 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: excellent at using the internet to cut through what can 69 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: sometimes be a confusing and chaotic catholic Yeah, I think 70 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: it's really because I was so misinformed when I started 71 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: out as an activist, not even just as an activist, 72 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: but as a survivor, taking a while to even identify 73 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: what happened to me. And I thought back, and I 74 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: was thinking, I was, like the media told me it 75 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: was just about a stranger in the alley way attacking you. 76 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about how being like unprepared and 77 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: misinformed are so well connected. And I am also like 78 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: not super a people person, at least not in person. 79 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: On the internet, it's cool, right, So it was just 80 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: it seems like just to be a really good combo 81 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: of sort of saying, Okay, I see where these problems are. 82 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 1: I like being on the internet. It's really rapid pace. 83 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: Um let's challenge all these assumptions that are there in 84 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: the media, and like, how can we change our relationship 85 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: to media even if we can't change it, because I 86 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: think it's so easy on especially on Twitter, right, and 87 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: even I would say even a little bit on TikTok, 88 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: to get really outraged, to pile on people and just 89 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: say like it sucks. But I noticed there's all these 90 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: circular things, so sort of like instead of getting mad 91 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: every single time and not really thinking about the deeper 92 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: implications or like how it can be systemic. Um, you know, 93 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: let's move towards that that lens looking at the systemic stuff. 94 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: Because it's just for me, I like to ration my outrage. 95 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: I want to be strategic. I wanted to be effective. 96 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's tough because it's also like the world 97 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: is on fire. But also then you have your own 98 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: personal life stuff that you need to deal with. Um. 99 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: And since a lot of folks are very inflammatory on 100 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: there on social media and the Internet, I think it's 101 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: really important to show a different way. How can you 102 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: be authentic? How can you be sincere? But also just 103 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: like how can you still be rooted in reality? Right? 104 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: And like I try to like maintain my values and 105 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: as much as I can, you know, in terms of 106 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: just how I interact with information and try to be 107 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: I try to be useful. I want to empower people. 108 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to just tell people how to feel. 109 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: I want to be like, this is how I feel, 110 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: and this is why you Here's what you can take 111 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: from it. Late last month, The Cut published an article 112 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: called Canceled at seventeen about a high school or they 113 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: called Diego, who, while drunk at a party, shared a 114 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: nude image of his then girlfriend Fiona with his friends 115 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: without consent. Now, to be frank, what he did is 116 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: a crime in many jurisdictions, but the article goes on 117 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: to talk about how the students at his school ostracized 118 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: him for what the Peace states was just a quote stupid, 119 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: drunken mistake on his part. The Peace spent a lot 120 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: of time on what this all feels like for Diego emotionally, 121 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: who the article goes out of their way to describe 122 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: as a sweet, goofy kid who was being shunned by 123 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: his classmates. We're also told that the climate of the 124 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: school really fueled all of this behavior. The student body 125 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: back in in person schooling after lockdowns were now reflecting 126 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: on incidents of sexual harassment and assault from years prior, 127 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,119 Speaker 1: with new eyes and feeling new anger about the ways 128 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: the school handled them. Feeling fed up by administrators, the 129 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: students take matters into their own hands. They organize a 130 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: walkout to protest the schools and action. They circulate a 131 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: list of kids to watch out for it. So, I 132 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: actually think there is a lot going on in this 133 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: piece that is useful to unpack, Like what happens when 134 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: adults fail to create a safe and supportive learning environment 135 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: for young people so much so that those young people 136 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: take matters into their own hands. And what are the 137 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: racial dynamics at play behind the fact that the majority 138 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: of the young men on the people to watch out 139 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: for a list are boys of color? Or what are 140 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: the institutional factors that play here? For instance, in the 141 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: Trump administration, Secretary of Education Betsy Divas completely overhauled Title nine, 142 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: the federal civil rights law that governs how schools must 143 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: handle sexual assault in schools. But this piece doesn't really 144 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: get into any of that. Instead, it tells us that 145 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: Diego is the victim of cancel culture, run them up, 146 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: that young people, fueled by social media wokesm have come 147 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: together to ruin the life of a sweet kid over 148 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: one tiny transgression. That piece from last month in the cut. 149 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: When I saw that piece, I thought, Wow, this intersect 150 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: with so many of the issues that I know that 151 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: you care about. Um. And so you were the first 152 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: person and I was like, I really want to know 153 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: her take. What were your initial thoughts on that? Man? 154 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: I feel like there's so many waves of it. But 155 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: first I was rolling my eyes because it starts off 156 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: canceled at seventeen. I'm like, oh my god, not canceled, right, 157 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: because it goes back the whole cancel culture stuff. And 158 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: I was thinking, how that's already inherently anti black. And 159 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: I remember the cover was a clown. It was a clown, 160 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: like a sad clown on a skateboard. So it's already 161 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: like framing it as this, like this child, and then 162 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: you read it and quote unquote he was canceled. Was 163 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: just that he was ostracized after sharing nudes of his 164 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: girlfriend non consensually, right, and then there's also little hints 165 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: about him potentially being abusive in other ways. Um, And 166 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: so it was just it was it was a perfect 167 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: example of hympathy, right. The framing. It was a very um, 168 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: I think it's a worthwhile topic, and I think she 169 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: touched upon things that other people should have covered. Basically, um, 170 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: the way that it was from his point of view, 171 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: like if you if you read it sort of like 172 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: he's the victim. There was a lot of UM. She 173 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time. I'm talking about how badly 174 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: he felt, how badly his parents felt, how you know, 175 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: all these sort of things, how bad the administrators felt. 176 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: It was always about everyone but the victims, how badly 177 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: they felt. Very little spent on the victim, what she thought, 178 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: any of those sort of things. So that was just 179 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: very um that stood out to me. And also the 180 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: timing stood out because it technically was a Title nine story, 181 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: even though they made it seem like it's about this 182 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: boy being victimized, and they did this on the week 183 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: of the fiftieth anniversary of Title nine. I think it 184 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: was a week up or the week after. So it 185 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: was just very much like a part of this backlash 186 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: against Title nine, which is a civil rights law. I 187 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: feel like folks don't say that enough, like this is 188 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: about civil rights and education, um, and also just part 189 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: of a larger part of the backlash to me too. Yeah, 190 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: I mean that's something else that I really like how 191 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: you framed that, because one of the things that stuck 192 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: out right away for me for that piece was the 193 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: way that Diego is framed as this, you know, good kid, 194 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: blah blah blah and his ex girlfriend, the person that 195 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: he you know, non non consensually shared new images of 196 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: the writer goes out of her way to talk about 197 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: how beautiful she was in this way that just feels 198 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: a little suset, almost feels like the implication is that 199 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: Diego was so proud of her beauty that showing these 200 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: images even without her consent, she really should have almost 201 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: been like complimented or flattered. And something about the way 202 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: it was framed just made me think that the writer 203 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: was trying to get us the reader to think, like, well, 204 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: is what he did really so bad? It was essentially 205 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 1: another way of saying she was asking for it by 206 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: being so beautiful, and that was really and and that 207 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: was a way to make him seem less responsible. And 208 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: it was really creepy because these are children. Why are 209 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: you talking about how attractive it um child is? And 210 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: especially we're gonna be talking about sexual violence right sharing 211 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: someone's nudes non consensually is a form of sexual violence. 212 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: So why are we talking about attractiveness? Because now you're 213 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: blurring the lines between sexual violence and sex and I 214 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: think that is a big part of rape culture, and 215 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: that's something that the media loves to do, is just 216 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: sort of saying, well, how did the victim ask for it? 217 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: How is the perpetrator not that responsible? Let's take a 218 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: quick break back. At this point, it seems almost impossible 219 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: to have not encountered at least one piece about cancel 220 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: culture about a mock friend of the show Michael Hobbs, 221 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: has a great episode of his podcast You're Wrong About 222 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: All about how most of the time, these pieces making 223 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: puffed up our guments about the threat that cancel culture 224 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: plays in our workplaces and college campuses are usually just 225 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: cherry picked anecdotes that totally fall apart under any scrutiny. 226 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: Yet media outlets, even pretty mainstream ones like The Atlantic, 227 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: keep churning them out, lending credibility to this idea that 228 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: people are routinely losing their entire livelihoods for saying or 229 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: doing one small, off color thing. It's yet another way 230 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: that our digital media ecosystem has incentivized these divisive but 231 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: ultimately kind of meaningless buzzwords to describe situations in ways 232 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: that make us all less informed and more divided. You 233 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: hit on something earlier where you said that it's it 234 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: was a story. It was like ostensibly a Title nine story. 235 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: But then they use this framing of you know, cancel culture, 236 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: run amuck. Why do you think that's the framing that 237 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: they chose. It feels so unhelpful. I think because they 238 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: wanted to be unhelpful. Um. I think we also have 239 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: to understand the role of media and um around issues 240 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: like this, that it's form of social control in the 241 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: sense that it is basically reflecting the values of the 242 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: people in charge. Right, so it's going to align with 243 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: the values of the systems of oppression that we have 244 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: in force, like heado patriarchy, white supremacy, capitalism. Um, they 245 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: hate rights. So the media is going to use language, 246 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: the medias is gonna use language that is going to 247 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: be very, um vague. I think that's very much something 248 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: that is common amongst reactionaries in general. They'll use very 249 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: vague language so they can twist it right because they 250 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: started off as canceled. You have to open it up 251 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: to see what it's about. Then you're like, oh, this 252 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: kid did something really bad, and not only that, the 253 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: language you used before she even told us what he did. 254 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: I was like, please don't judge him, blah blah blah. 255 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, they're like very heavy handed. Like 256 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I've read a lot of bad things about 257 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: sexual by Lens, but that was really shocking where she 258 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: was just explicitly like, don't judge this boy who did 259 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: something objectively wrong. Um, So yeah, I think it's just 260 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: about it was it was able to use this umbrella 261 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: where it's like either you're an assailant or you said 262 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: something racist. Then she also just like stopped saying what 263 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: different kids did and then giving us their opinion as 264 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: if it's truth. Right, So it's just it's just it's 265 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: a manipulation tool. Is the Is the the short of it. 266 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: I see time after time after time after time, all 267 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: of these pieces where it's like cancel culture run amuck, 268 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: and it's like, actually, this seems like a couple like 269 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: a couple of anecdotes that you've really cherry picked and 270 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: and and really blown up or it just it just 271 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: feels like a lot of breathless writing about something, but 272 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: there does also seem to be like an actual story 273 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: worth telling in the piece, I would argue, because when 274 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: I read that piece, all I could think was like, Wow, 275 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: these young people have been so clearly failed by the 276 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: adults in their lives that they feel like and the 277 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: institutions in their lives that they feel like the only 278 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: way that they can get any kind of justice is 279 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: taking matters into their own hands, and no ship turns out. 280 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: A bunch of teenagers acting on their own without any 281 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: kind of like meaningful guidance or institutional support might not 282 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: handle things in the in the most productive way. And 283 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like what, like, why not tell that story 284 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: because it's a story worth telling? You know. I think 285 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: part of it is that, you know, part of the backlash. 286 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: It's a way to sort of recalibrate power. So I 287 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: would see this as a way to sort of like, Okay, um, 288 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: too many people were supportive of Title nine and sexual 289 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: self survivors, so let's sort of shift the script. I 290 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: think council culture in a book is just a lot 291 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: easier to write, and it's a lot you can do 292 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: a lot of innuendo, a lot of implying this is 293 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: just part of again, we're very much in this re 294 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: actionary culture we're trying to like, so we're seeing people 295 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: using the media to sort of reclaim um, hegemonic masculinity 296 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: or toxic masculinity. I would say they they're like excusing 297 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: the toxic part to reinforce hegemonic masculinity, because with hegemonic masculinity, 298 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of theorists will talk about how 299 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: it's about how there's power in the legal sense then 300 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: also like in the public sphere and then also in 301 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: the private sphere. So it's a way to sort of 302 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: reassert that power by um, not looking at the real problem. 303 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: The media loves. Episodic framing when it comes to sexual 304 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: violence is something that's been studied and they also studies 305 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: also show that when you have an episodic framing, when 306 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: you sort of like say it's this kid being victimized, um, 307 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: people are less likely to be supportive of survivors because 308 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: they're not going to really know that this is part 309 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,239 Speaker 1: of a cultural problem. And when people realize that this 310 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: is a cultural problem that hasn't gone away, people are 311 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: gonna start thinking, wait, who's benefiting from this? Weight who's 312 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: not changing things. So I think it's a way to 313 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: maintain the status quo. And essentially, because how many adults 314 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: are going to write about themselves being like failing a 315 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: bunch of kids, very few people are going to be 316 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: willing to admit that. So what do you do? You 317 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: kind of like shove it under the rug. All right, 318 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: it's the cats out of the bag. We couldn't control 319 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: the activists, right, like you're welcome, y'all right? Like as 320 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: I feel like my friends and I were activists and 321 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: were like, whoah, we got we gotta fix that. And 322 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: so instead of validating it as a real thing, they 323 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: go to this other angle that's just very um yeah, 324 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: it's manipulative, it's dishonest, and they know what they're doing. 325 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: Do you feel that the media just consistently fails survivors 326 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: in the way that it frames and tells your story? Absolutely? Absolutely. Um. 327 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: So it's really interesting. I've been reading about just media 328 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: and campus sexual assault in the different connections between it, 329 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: and there's been a long legacy of specifically white women 330 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: coming out to um doubt sexual violence and education. So 331 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: it was more so about campus sexual assaults specifically starting 332 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: around in the nineteen eighties nineteen nineties, and it was 333 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: about like this was before there was a lot of 334 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: research out. So first it was sort of like do 335 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: we really know, we need we need data, we don't 336 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: really trust just a bunch of women lying. Then the 337 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: data came out there like the data is wrong, this 338 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: is just it doesn't make any sense, blah blah blah. 339 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: So now the argument here is that cancel culture has 340 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: gone wrong. And then when you use cancel culture, you 341 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: can blame low key black people, right, you can blame 342 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: the internet. Couldn't quote Twitter, uh, you know, you can 343 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: just blame a bunch of minoritized groups and sort of 344 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: like it's a way to funnel that resentment against people 345 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: who have been getting um more visibility. One thing is 346 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: about the racism in the piece. I mean, it's it's 347 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: so interesting because she they do mention that like the boys, 348 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: like most of the boys who were like sort of 349 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: singled out, we're all voice of color. Yeah, so that 350 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: is something that's been used increasingly in the past couple. 351 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: Actually they started using that um line the reactionaries, the 352 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: anti title nine people when my friends and I sort 353 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: of came on the scene and so they're trying to 354 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: make it as sort of like freeing it, as these 355 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: white girls are trying to ruin these black boys lives. 356 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: And that is really awful in a sense because all right, 357 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: I know, as me, as a black survivor and someone 358 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: who was assaulted by a black person, um, I hesitated 359 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: to come forward for a while because I did not 360 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: want to reinforce that representation. I think it's really harmful 361 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 1: and media only talks about men and boys of color 362 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: as potentially perpetrators, are only as the accused because you're 363 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: racing them as victims, and then you're also silencing the 364 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: people that they do victimize. Because the thing is is 365 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: most sexual violence is within the race, but they don't 366 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,239 Speaker 1: talk about that, and so it's really messed up of 367 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: how they tried to emphasize that while erasing the victims, 368 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: because like maybe most of the victims are are girls 369 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: of color or people of color, but we we don't 370 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: really hear that. She talks about the activists being mostly 371 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: women of color, but then she labels them as tribalistic, 372 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: you know, and exorcistic, you know, like really trying to 373 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: be like these are these irrational like like primal thing 374 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: and It was really interesting how she kind of frames 375 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: it as like it's a primal thing when you're supporting 376 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: survivors and being an activist. But god forbid um but 377 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: everyone else, right, the users, they're enablers, they're all the 378 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: rational people. And there was also like a little bit 379 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: of a dog whistle where she talked about privilege in 380 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: ways it just sort of show that like, if you 381 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 1: believe in privilege, then you're going to be somebody who 382 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: will be a counselor like someone who cancels, and that's bad. 383 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: There's a lot of like little like nitpicky things. Oh 384 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: and then when she talked about him going on a 385 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: trip learning about the civil rights movement and then she 386 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: was like that's where he learned. Oh, that's right, that's 387 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: where he learned about negative power. I was like, it 388 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: was like, you did not just use the civil rights 389 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: movement to like equated with a boy committing sexual violence 390 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: against his exchol friend. What are you doing? So you 391 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: know the way that they like really like to like 392 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: move us away from true power, conscious analysis, right and 393 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: try and flatten it to like anyone can be a victim. 394 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: And when you mean anyone, it's the people with the 395 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: most power. Yeah, the people with the most power who 396 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: happened to be facing some consequences for their Here, he's 397 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: still got to go to four proms. So first of all, 398 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: you still have friends. Number two, you're not poor because 399 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: proms are not cheap. But anyway, yeah, if you're going 400 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,719 Speaker 1: to four proms, I don't know. I mean, it's a 401 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: little it's a little hard for me to be like, oh, 402 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: you're being socially ostrious. Has four proms as hell? What 403 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: there's another thing. I was like, Yeah, it's just like 404 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: these white ladies, you know, and you know that it 405 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: just hits at that white liberal racism. Was like, oh no, 406 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: I don't want to support something that accuses black boys 407 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: of rape. But then they don't talk about how basically, 408 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: with anything in regards to schools code of conduct, students 409 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: of color disproportionately disciplined. So if you're only doing it 410 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: around rape, you're just being racist. And you're using rape 411 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: culture to do it, because that's really messed up to 412 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: only care about it when you're trying to undermine survivors 413 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: who are often survivors of color. Absolutely, and I think 414 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: the piece does at at once is sort of concern 415 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: trolling around like oh, I don't want to be you know, 416 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: criminalizing boys of color, but then also blames people of 417 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: color for this like cancel culture, abound a monk, Like 418 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: it's like, well, geez, which is exactly definitely playing both 419 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: sides and hoping that you don't catch up on it, right, 420 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: And I think unfortunately, I'm sure most white people would 421 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: not be able to pick up on that because it's 422 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: just sort of those things that you can read in 423 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: between the lines. But it's, um, it's really weird how 424 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: they're using race in this really manipulative way. More after 425 00:24:53,400 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back into it. I 426 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: feel like it is part of the course for the 427 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: way that we are using we're seeing like issues like 428 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: race and gender like just become these issues that are 429 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: just used to inflame instead of having like thoughtful conversations, 430 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: they're just be They're just being used to like stoke tensions, 431 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: like further stoke tensions. Yeah. I think education has always 432 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,479 Speaker 1: been a site of like inciting tensions and trying to 433 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: spread moral panics. So I think this is just another 434 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: way that they're manifesting that. Yeah, I see that so 435 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: often echoed on the Internet. I think that it's I mean, 436 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: this is just my personal pet theory, but I think 437 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: it's like why Elon Musk wants to buy Twitter in 438 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: part because it's like minoritized groups and groups who historically 439 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: have been marginalized and had power taken from us are 440 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: able to use these tools to build power, to build 441 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: a voice, to build moments, to build culture, and to 442 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: push back. And I think that that is really threatening 443 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: to a certain type of person, really really committed and 444 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: uh you know, really committed to having power and making 445 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: sure that people like us don't really have. It's a 446 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: lot of the cancel culture rhetoric is about like who 447 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: has control over the public square right, who can control 448 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: the discourse, who can influence it? And so since um, yeah, 449 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: minoritized people are have had like, you know, just unprecedented reach, 450 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: now they are going to use traditional media where white people, 451 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: where the you know, the rich white men have control, 452 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: and they're going to commission these sort of things to 453 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: to legitimize a sense of canceling. And then also in 454 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: sense you legitimize people who dare to speak up as 455 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: a survivor, people who dared to be in solidarity with survivors, 456 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: it's just very much about condemning, um, everyone who dares 457 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: challenge his status quo. Yeah, are there ways that you like, 458 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: in a perfect world, how would the internet and media 459 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: and our digital ecosystem, like, how could those institutions actually 460 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: show up for survivors? Is there is there a world 461 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: where that could exist? Oh, it definitely could exist. It's 462 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: not going to exist with the way things are now, 463 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: just because I think something that's, um, something that's happened 464 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't talk about that is that, um, 465 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: you know, so much media has closed, right, there's just 466 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: lost less competition. There's been a lot of mergers and 467 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: stuff like that, and there's some theory about how when 468 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: that happens. When there's less competition, there's more incentive to 469 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: cater to the narrative of the people in charge of 470 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: hegemonic narratives and the hegemonic discourses, which is why you'll 471 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: get more like grape culture, more racism. Why you know, 472 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: fascists will get platforms more easily than like victims of 473 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: police of violence. What we have to do is essentially 474 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: have media organizations that are trauma informed and also their 475 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: values are not about making money or catering to power, 476 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: but rather challenging power, because it's this is something that 477 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: you need to have an expertise, you need to be 478 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: educated about. It's really complicated to talk about sexual violence 479 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: because very often I read things and I can read 480 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: in between the lines. But I know most people would 481 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: not be able to do that. They wouldn't know that. Um. 482 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: You know, when I was reading the article, it was 483 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: kind of like best hits of all the different reactionary 484 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: things that I've seen when they're talking about title nine. Um, 485 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: so it's just about incentives, changing the incentives. Who gets funding, 486 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: who gets to lead newsrooms, right, who gets disseminated, and 487 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: how it's really um, when you think about it, we're 488 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: very much in the domain where, yes, social media has 489 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: been great and we have chipped way a little bit 490 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: at that power, but we still have to acknowledge that 491 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: the power in the media has is just disproportionately in 492 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: favor of you know, a few old, rich, white dudes, 493 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: and that's by design. Yeah, I mean I think so 494 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: often when I think about, like, what will it take 495 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: to get to a better future one, you know, one 496 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: where survivors are supported, it's capitalism. It's like it's like 497 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: it is tearing down systems and institutions, and it seems 498 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: so you know, lofty, far off, but it seems to 499 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: always come back to that. It was actually realizing the 500 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: connections between rape culture and the media that made me realize. 501 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, capitalism has to go because there's 502 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: literally no financial incentive to be against rape culture. There's 503 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: only so many financial incentives, and if every single business 504 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: is existing to stay in business to make as much 505 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: money as possible, that's a huge disadvantage for survivors and 506 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: for the entire society because mere exposure to rape myths 507 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: and headlines actually influences people. They're more victim blaming, they 508 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: accept more rape myths, and then people who are inclined 509 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: to commit sexual violence are actually more emboldened. So this 510 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: is these are all messages that we are all living 511 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: with the implications of that we don't really talk about. 512 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: That's just really um upsetting. But yeah, capitalism is we 513 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: have to think about how basically capitalism as we know 514 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,959 Speaker 1: it in the United States um was built on sexual violence. Right. 515 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: It's the sexual violence against indigenous people too as form 516 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: of colonialism, and then sexual violence against enslaved Africans where 517 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: raping people could literally create more capital. And so when 518 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: we think about that legacy, if we think about this 519 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: economic system that we're in, that it um has been 520 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: run to normalize sexual violence because it is profitable. We 521 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: have to we have to throw it away. We're not 522 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: going to be able to really dig out there, Like 523 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: obviously I'm gonna do what I can, but yeah, capitalism 524 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: and um hetero patriarchy, Right, we just have a lot 525 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: of sexist people, a lot of sis sexist people because 526 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: we're seeing the rise of transphobia and the way that 527 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: the idea of groomers, right, people are able to use 528 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: those labels, those like your predator, you're this, you're that 529 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: strategically because we're so ignorant about rape. Why are we 530 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: so ignorant about rape? In a large part because of 531 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: the media. Why because capitalism makes the media incentivized for 532 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: us to be ignorant about it. Yeah, I guess I 533 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: it's difficult to not see the ways that these things 534 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: are all connected. And like, once you start pulling that thread, 535 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: you're like, oh shit, it's the whole ball of apertly, 536 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: it's like throw it all away. It's just it's all 537 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: it's this is why intersectionality got so popular, right, because 538 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: people were really drawn to the idea of like this 539 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: is all connected in some way at some point, you know, 540 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: to go back to that piece. Something that really I 541 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: kind of Scott stuck on after reading it is that 542 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: the idea that it's it was the perpetrator who was 543 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: like ostracized when I was young, when I was in 544 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: high school. I you know how like every high school 545 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: has like that thing that happened in your school. Well, 546 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: the thing that happened in our school was that female 547 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: classmate of ours um her boyfriend showed a video of 548 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: her to our entire school into like neighboring schools. And 549 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: when I tell you, like like she was completely ostracized. 550 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: I don't even remember the guy's name. And she was 551 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: the one who had to Like I think they left. 552 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: I think they moved away. Like it was like it 553 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: was like the biggest thing of our school. And so, 554 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, we were all in high school, and so certainly, 555 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean I think back and I'm like, wow, we 556 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: really fucked up and failed that that young woman. But 557 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: today part of me was so surprised that the party 558 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: that was ostracized was the perpetrator, not the victims, because 559 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: that certainly wasn't what the vibe was and what I 560 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: was saying. I mean, I think that was something a 561 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: lot of people were saying on Twitter, like, whoa, they 562 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: actually ostracized the perpetrator for what. Yeah, I was really 563 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: surprised because it makes me think about slut walk. In 564 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: a Toronto police officer suggested that women should avoid dressing 565 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: like sluts to avoid sexual violence. In response, anti rape 566 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: activists started the slut Walk movement to protest rape culture, 567 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: victim blaming and slut shaming. Slut Walk was about like 568 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: twenty eleven something like that. It was that sounds right, yeah, 569 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: but made me think about how, um, you know, feminists 570 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: are trying to reclaim the word slut, even though depending 571 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: on your identity, it's not exactly like as achievable. But 572 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: that's like another conversation. However, it was about how slut. 573 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: We used to talk a lot about how the word 574 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: slut was used against victims of sexual violence because they 575 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: would be the ones who were bullied, they would be 576 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: the ones whould be ostracized. It was basically showing how 577 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: slut shaming was an umbrella term to sort of hide 578 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 1: what actually is being done to whom who has the power, 579 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: who's the real victim? Um? So this is really surprising. 580 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: And I think because it is so more common for 581 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: the victim to be ostracized, it made this decision even 582 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 1: more interesting because it's sort of like, oh, my gosh, 583 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: if it starts, this is going to be bad. And 584 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: it really frames it as like it's normal and good 585 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 1: for the victims, who are usually girls right to carry 586 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: that shame and the consequences of the actions of um, 587 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: their perpetrators. Yeah, you just I mean, it's normal and 588 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: good for the victims who are usually girls to carry 589 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: that shame. That's I guess, especially today when we're all 590 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: having this conversation about a ten year old child who 591 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: is a rape survivor of rape who was pregnant and pregnated. 592 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: This idea of like what we ask women and girls, 593 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: what shame we asked them to absorb, to keep, to 594 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: keep these societal things running, to make to make sure 595 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: that this power and balance doesn't shift back. And I 596 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: guess that's just really weighing heavy on my my heart 597 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: right now. The way that you put that really stung 598 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: a little. Like I remember I was reading something and 599 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: I realized that. I was like, oh shit. I was like, Oh, 600 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: they're okay with this. Oh they think we deserve this. 601 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 1: Oh Like it's just sort of like a damn it. 602 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: This is why I don't believe in giving gory details. 603 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: I don't believe that showing the violence will convince people 604 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of people who think that's 605 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: just how the world is supposed to be UM, And 606 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: I think that's something that we need to reckon with 607 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: because I think it'll make us more effective in our 608 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: strategy and how we respond. But especially we're thinking about UM. 609 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: How you know, Christianity very much has shaped our sense 610 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: of what victimhood is. And when you take that into consideration, 611 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: you have to think about Jesus Christ, who's like the 612 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 1: ultimate victim. And they use Jesus Christ as a way 613 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 1: to sort of show that suffering is good in a sense, right, 614 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: and it's kind of twisted in a way to be like, 615 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: this is just all a part of God's plan. Your 616 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: suffering is a part of God's plan. It brings you 617 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: closer to Godliness. And when you're in a society where 618 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: the marginalized people are seen as inherently bad, right, women 619 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: are the original sinners. You know, trans people and queer 620 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 1: people are you know, they're they're deviant. Then it's sort 621 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: of like this weird concept of like, if you're suffering, 622 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: we're kind of helping you. Mm hmm, Like um, it 623 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: reminds me so much of that Orneal Herson quote if 624 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: you're silent about your pain, they'll kill you and say 625 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: you enjoyed it, like teaching us that we should find 626 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: empowerment through our suffering or that should be like, you know, 627 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: a badge of honor. Like I'm just I'm just so 628 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: done with anything that tells me that something that is 629 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: negative for me that I but I should be happy 630 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: about it. I'm so done with that. And I feel 631 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: like that that isn't our culture everywhere definitely is. It's 632 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: definitely a way to sort of maintain not sort of, 633 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: it's one of the many ways that they maintain the 634 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: status quot because it's a sort of gas lighting as well, right, 635 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: because if it's if suffering is normal, then we don't 636 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: need to think about systems of oppression, we don't need 637 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: to think about rape culture because like that's just how 638 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: the world is. And so it's like it was it's 639 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: sort of like an anti call to action if you 640 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: think about the article it has said's right, because it's 641 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: like don't change no, no, no, Like just if you 642 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: blame the victim, if you coddle abusers, that's okay, that's cool, 643 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's low key that like, don't 644 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: get too worried about all the hubbub on Twitter and 645 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: college campuses, like it'll be okay. It's a call to 646 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: inaction exactly. So, given where we're at, everything that's happened 647 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: in our culture when it comes to survivors and how 648 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: how we fail them, don't support them tell their stories. 649 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: Are what do you think about what's on the horizon? 650 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: Are you hopeful in this moment today? Like how are 651 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: you feeling about what it means to be a survivor 652 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: and to have survivor stories be told? Um, you know, 653 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,919 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful in a sense where I have seen from 654 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: my time on college campuses, which was really hard for 655 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: people to talk about rape, to now we're having that 656 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: ass high schoolers doing rallies and like getting administrators to resign. 657 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: That's amazing, Like I see so much progress where students 658 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: are really stepping up their occupying frat houses, they're occupying 659 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: administrators offices. Like people are catching on and I'm seeing it, 660 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: and that gives me hope. I think it's easy to 661 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: fall into despair when you're on social media doom scrolling, 662 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: especially since I feel like I just, you know, I 663 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: follow a lot of news. I follow out of anxious people, 664 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: follow a lot of vulnerable people, you know. But there 665 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: is progress. They if there wasn't, they wouldn't be fighting 666 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: back against us so hard. They're cheating. They're cheating, and 667 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 1: we're still beating their asses. So I got a story 668 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech. I just want to 669 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: say hi. You can be just at hello at tangodi 670 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode 671 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on the 672 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: Internet was created by me Brigittad. It's a production of 673 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 674 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: Terry Harrison is our producer, and sound engineer. Michael Amato 675 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget DoD. If 676 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us 677 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,879 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts for more podcasts from iHeart Radio check 678 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 679 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.