WEBVTT - From Hell's Heart: The Science of Spite 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.000 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:14.280 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:16.920 My name is Robert Lamb. Hey, I'm Christian Sagan Christian. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.120 What comes to mind when I mentioned the word spike? 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.759 When I mentioned spike is a uh is an aspect 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.520 of human behavior? Well, the very first thing I thought 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.639 of when we started talking about doing this episode. There's 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.080 a scene in Star Trek to the Wrath of Con 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:38.000 and Con spoilers for a movie that's like thirty years old, UH, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.680 when Con is dying, but he decides that he's gonna, 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.680 you know, take himself out along with uh the enterprise, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.000 and he recites the whole speech Captain Ahab speech from 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.280 movie Dick, which you know, the two parallel pretty well together. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.000 So I think of Con nunion singh when I think 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.920 of spite, Okay, well yeah, I think I think Con 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.600 is definitely a very spiteful care because ULTI millions of 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.080 in a situation where he can't win and he could 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.280 bow out gracefully, but CON's not going to do that. 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.840 It's too much pride, there's too much ego there. He's 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:12.920 laying it all on the line, So he'd rather he'd 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.680 rather strike back and perish and get like just just 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:19.160 to you know, raise the middle finger to Kirk rather 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.959 than than just go out. Yeah. This is definitely the 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.480 core of trying to figure out spite, not not just 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:30.120 like how it works psychologically in our human minds, but 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.200 also like our definition of it when you go and 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:35.959 you look it up on the dictionary. It doesn't really 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:41.640 include the encapsulate how we think of it, right, Yeah, 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.200 because some of the studies that we get into, well, 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.200 one in particular talks about it, talks about spit and 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.000 says in general spike differs from aggression, which can be 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.480 exercised at little risk to an aggressor, spike carries a cost, 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.000 as if one were calculating that a loss is worthwhile 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.559 if it takes a toll on one's opponent as well. 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.400 But you don't necessarily see that in you know, your 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.000 standard Webster's dictionary, right, Yeah. So the idea here is 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:11.240 that you are willing to hurt yourself at the expense 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.200 of being able to hurt someone else, right, and that 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.680 hurt is not necessarily physical. Like the most extreme example 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.000 that comes to a lot of people's minds, I'm sure 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.200 is something like a suicide bomber, you know where they're 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.440 they're saying, I will die violently in this cause to 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:30.519 cause harm to others. But then also something in spite 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.880 that we've all probably experienced on one side of the other. Uh, 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.600 if you've ever taken your time pulling out of a 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.480 parking spot because you don't like the look of that 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.720 car or that driver that's waiting on it, maybe they're 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.200 being a little rude. And so in that case, the 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.880 cost is not nearly as high as losing your life, 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.800 but you are willing to look a little bit like 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.200 a jerk in order to make sure that person gets 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.080 what's coming to them. Yeah. Um, So it makes me 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.000 think of like methods of conflict management, and there's there's 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.160 several different ways that you can manage conflict, but this 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.600 would be what's called the competitive method of conflict management, right, 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.840 where you're basically competing against another person to win in conflict. Right, 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.920 and in this situation, you're not even winning. It's a 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.880 it's a lose loose everybody loses. Like, actually, your whole reason, 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.160 your whole goal here in leaving the parking lot is 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.639 to leave the parking lot and presentably get where you're 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.560 going next in the shortest amount of time, and it's required, 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.200 So you're you're hurting your own objectives, You're you're looking 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.320 like a jerk doing it. There's really no benefit other 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.920 than you feel that you know that ego stroke and 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:44.280 some sort of deep animalistic um pride in having, you know, 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:46.200 put one over on the next guy. It's not an 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.480 effective method of problem solving, that's for sure, but it's 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.720 something that I think is within all of us. I 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.640 have to admit that as we were researching this, I 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.120 was really digging deep inside myself trying to remember examples 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.720 where I had been spite full and I couldn't. Yeah, 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.720 and I'm sure I have been even that, even the 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.920 mild stuff like driving around the only uh yeah, I'm 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.720 I am an angry driver, but not a spiteful driver. 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.479 I so no, I can't think of it wouldn't be 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.719 like that. But um I the only thing I could 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.640 think of it as like a practical example of is 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.680 if there's somebody who I personally don't like, I won't 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.359 and I won't support their work, like whether it's a 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.080 book that they wrote or a film that they produced 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.760 or acted in or whatever. Uh even if people are like, 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.120 you have to see this, it is the best thing 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.960 ever you you know, it's going to change your life. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:47.479 It's it's the best storytelling, And I go, Nope, I don't. 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.320 I don't want to give that person my ten bucks. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.400 Well have been the cough there could be my own edification. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.960 You're in. You're messing. You're missing out on the potential 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:02.080 joys of this product because of the if you will. Well. 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.560 What it reminds me of is you ever read the 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.120 police blotder in Creative Loafing here in Atlanta. I think 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:09.920 that they have this in a lot of all weeklies 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.200 around the world, but here in Atlanta are all weekly 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.840 does this thing where they take I don't know. Every 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.440 week there's like maybe five or six little snippets out 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.919 of the actual Atlanta Police Departments log uh and of 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.600 just the craziest stories. And almost always every week there's 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.280 one story that involves spite in some way somebody who's 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.280 doing something illegal or something to hurt another person that 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:39.200 ultimately ends up getting them arrested. Right, um, And they're 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.800 always completely whacked out crazy stories. Some of my favorites 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.320 involved just like you know, people where half naked scrambling 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.400 down the streets and screaming in the middle of the night. 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:54.520 But that's not exactly spiteful, that's just you know, crazy. Yeah, 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.880 And could you certainly see it showed up too at 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.279 times with police encounters where someone decides that the best 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.000 thing they can they can do during this encounter is 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:06.520 to be spiteful to the officer. Yeah, right, Yeah, that's 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.559 an interesting thing that it brings out. Law enforcement seems 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.720 to bring spite out in people and on both sides. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.200 And not not to imply there's there's there's never some 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:19.800 spite from the police. No, no, absolutely, Um, so okay, 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:21.760 let's let's have some fune with us for a second. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.760 So Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart. You know, for those 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:27.200 of you out there, you know that Robert and I 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.919 are are really into geeky stuff like this. So, uh, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.479 what is where spite fall? I'm thinking it's neutral evil, 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:41.760 it's not necessarily chaotic, there's there there's determination to it. Obviously, 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:47.160 it doesn't follow a rule oriented uh you know practice. Yeah, 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.359 I think lawful evils probably where most of your spite 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.440 is gonna fall. But but and in that, you know, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.080 we definitely have to think about some of the spiteful 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.440 characters we've encountered in things like like when I was 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.200 trying to think of some in addition to a ha 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.120 and con Searcy Lanister comes to mind from Game of 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:06.280 Thrones as being a very spiteful character who you know, 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.520 she has some some key values, you know, the importance 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.280 of her family and importance for her family, but she's 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.640 often willing to jeopardize all of it out of spite 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.320 for uh an In in the Aura received Enemy. So 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.240 if where would where would Searcy land in the Dungeon 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:26.080 and dragons alignment charges? I guess you, yeah, I guess 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.960 you would have to say she's lawful evil she because 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.280 she works within the I guess system of rule. Right. 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.240 Uh yeah, that's interesting. Another one that came to mind, 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.680 And this was a much harder one to nail down 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.280 because there's you know a lot of a lot of 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.200 his motivations are still up for discussion and continue to 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.160 you know, to be an item of discussion among critics. 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.960 But Iago in Shakespeare's a Fellow, Okay, yeah, I saw this. 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:55.320 Give me a little refresher on this because it's been 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.600 a while since I've read Othello. Well, basically Iago is 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.520 the character it just works against Othello the whole time 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:07.320 and just you know, just really kind of ruthlessly. Um. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.920 But you never really have a clear sense why, Like 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.360 there's not a situation where it's like, oh, Fellow killed 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:16.000 my father or you know, generally it's a to try 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.680 and figure out why Iago is so obsessed with taking 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:24.280 down Othello, you have to you have to apply some 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:29.080 some outside interpretations such as I think Kenneth Brana when 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.520 he played Iago, he he had he approached it as 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.200 if Iago had feelings for Othello, and so his like 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.080 his his deep rooted hatred came out of you know, 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:44.120 inner conflict over his uh like he was burned somehow. Yeah. 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.640 So Iago is a harder character to to nail down. 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.040 But I think there's there's a certain amount of spite 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.439 to what he does in the play. Yeah. Well, I 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:57.160 you know, when I was researching this, one thing that 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:02.120 I didn't realize was like a thing was building homes 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.040 out of spite. Apparently, like if you if you just 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:09.560 search the word spite on Google, within at least two 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.560 or three pages, you'll find galleries of homes that were 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.560 built in spite of their neighbors. Uh, And I didn't 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:17.920 realize this is a thing. It's like people are purposely 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:23.320 building homes to annoy their neighbors that aren't necessarily practical 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.520 or functional homes that they themselves enjoy. Literally, you're talking 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.920 just like mildly so because you're always hearing about like, oh, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.480 they're building a modern home and it's out of keeping 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.920 with their traditional homes in the neighborhood. Yeah, I think 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.880 it's more along those because then you also see those 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:38.760 stories like the guy in England who had a giant 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.360 shark like embedded in the roof of his house. I'm 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.720 sure that would fall under this. I'm thinking along the 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.920 lines of like that house and Beetlejuice, you know, like 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.920 like the the weird like postmodern art house that they 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.000 had there. But in that case, you know, there was 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:54.960 no neighborhood. In this. I think it would be like, 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.240 you know, your nextra neighbors would would hate you because 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.720 it would bring down the property values or something like that. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.439 But this is apparently, like like I found multiple galleries 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.560 of this, so apparently it's a phenomenon. You know, it 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:09.439 brings to mind. Uh, I can't remember the character's name 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.840 off hand, but the the individual that Kevin Spacey portrayed 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.400 in Midnight in the Garden A good and evil. You know, 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.680 I have never seen that. My wife loves that movie, 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:23.320 but I still haven't New Orleans Resident, and uh, if 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.040 I remember correctly, the individually plays, it's kind of an 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:30.440 eccentric kind of character. And they were filming some sort 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.160 of historical piece in his neighborhood, and they covered the 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.480 streets and dirt and you know, their horses standing around 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.200 or whatever, and it's kind of a big inconvenience for everybody. 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.080 And they were going to be shooting potentially with his 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:43.920 house in the background, because it's one of these nice 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.720 old homes. And so he he just draped a large 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:52.200 Nazi flag stick and all right there on the front 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.680 porch out of spite. You know, it's like, you're gonna 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.080 you're gonna film this neighborhood and film my house at 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:00.600 the backdrop. Well, I'm gonna do this, which makes completely 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:05.120 useless for your shoot and also brand Nazi to all 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:10.520 of my neighbors. Wow, Okay, yeah, I mean that could 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:17.360 work for sure. I So let's get into lake where 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.079 this saying of because when we think of spite, it's 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.280 always you know that that phrase to cut your nose 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.600 off despite your face. So let's think of like where 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.400 this came from. What where where is this? Well, it 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.640 apparently dates back to at least around the twelfth century. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.880 And uh, it's generally attributed to pious women who are 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:41.959 just figuring themselves in order to protect the virginity against pirates, vikings, 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:47.000 invading armies, etcetera. Basically just to to try and disfigure 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.320 themselves so that they will be looked over when the 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.920 assaults begin. Yeah, I read a little bit about this. 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.600 This was not something I knew about before researching this episode. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.160 These were mostly women. Uh. And this is a common 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:03.960 phrase you'll hear me say during medieval times. Uh that, Um, 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.040 you know, we're so religious that they wanted to preserve 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.720 their virginity, right. And the idea, I mean, this isn't 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.160 when we're talking disfiguring. It's not just like you know, 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.200 they give themselves a scar. They're cutting off their own noses, 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.640 literally cutting off their nose, uh, cutting off their cheeks, 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.679 cutting off their upper lips. Uh. And some of these 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.959 people actually ended up becoming saints in some sense. So 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.520 st Ebba was one that I found who inspired nuns 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:31.560 to cut off their own noses and upper lips to 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.520 prevent themselves from being raped. Um and there are a 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.520 couple others in there as well. But yeah, that is 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.079 a practice that I was unfamiliar with. Yeah. I was 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.240 also reading that it also might be linked to medieval 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.080 acts of spite, in which the nose is cut off 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.680 as a kind of punishment. Um And and it's sadly 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.720 you see this kind of thing continue in the world today, 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.600 you know, war torn regions of the world where uh, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.959 women are particular demise by having their their nose cut right, 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.920 the mutilation is sort of a marking. Yeah. Yeah, And 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.920 as graphic as that is, though, remember that because when 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.360 later in the episode we will start to discuss the 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:16.400 links between spite and and punishment in a in a 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.240 lawful system. Yeah, it seems like there's a connection between 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.040 those things, and then altruism as well. It's it's it's 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.560 like this coin where you've got spite on one side 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.840 and altruism on the other, and it seems like they're connected. 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.319 In human psychology, so it turns out that there are 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.320 a lot of studies, at least at least four that 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.080 we found for the for this episode on spite and 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.320 sort of its origins and how it works within human 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.600 beings and animals too, right, I mean, it's apparently, you know, 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.920 many researchers considered to be an understudied area. But but 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.320 we were able to find some interesting papers about spite 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.600 and where it comes from and what it means. Uh. 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.480 The most basic place to start, of course, would be 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.880 just to ask are humans the only spiteful creatures despite 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.880 possible in any other animal on the planet. And I 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:07.679 would think any cat owner would assume the danswer is no, Right, Well, yeah, yeah, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.960 you would. Certainly cats seem to do a lot of 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:15.160 things out of spite. Mine does as well. But but 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.920 of course, anytime you're dealing with human are actually like 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:19.800 how much are we projecting on them? Right with anther 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.840 morphizing there, because you know, they're basically just doing a 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.800 much of stupid stuff, and then we just assume will 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.560 you do that to spite me? Why did you get 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.440 crap on the wall? This is like watching videos of 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.160 them on the internet so much just because they remind 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:37.280 us of our own frailties. Yeah, Sadly, the research we're 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.400 looking at doesn't look at the spiteful cat that would 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.160 have I would like to read a study looking at 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.080 spite and felines, but uh in particular, this was a 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.440 two thousand six study conducted at the Wolfgang Coler Primate 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.680 Research Center and Lives of Germany by Max Playing Institute researchers. 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.360 And uh, yeah, they're looking at chimpanzees, which of course 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.680 is a great place to look because what seems like 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.800 the post. Before we get into what they found, let's 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.920 describe the methodology here because it's a little I think 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.280 it's a little complicated, right, so um, Dr Kenneth sorry, 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.600 Dr Keith Jensen and his team, they presented the chips 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:16.760 that they had in captivity with this choice. By the way, 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.040 this all sounds like like an origin film for Planet 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.040 of the Apes, like it was a little scary. They 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.720 gave them the choice to pull one of two ropes, 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.640 and by pulling these ropes, they would either deliver food 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:34.120 to another chim chimpanzee or deliver it to an empty room. 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.240 And I'm assuming to that like all of the chimpanzees 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.160 involved in this can see one another and see these 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:45.120 empty rooms. In either case, the chimpanzee pulling the rope 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.560 did not receive any food themselves, right, So there was 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.040 they didn't get food themselves even though they were hungry. 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.200 So they had a choice to either give the food 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.560 to the other chimp or send it to an empty 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.560 room as a spiteful action towards the other chimp. And 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.680 the chimp wants food, it's a hungry chimp. Yeah, So 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.120 you can imagine yourself in that in a similar scenario. 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.840 If you had your your most favorite meal in the world. Yeah, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:10.920 let's say it's I don't know, a deep dish pizza 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.440 and it's right there, right there behind the glass. You 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:15.680 can't eat it. You can pull one rope and have 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.360 it to land on a plate for another hungry individual 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.960 you don't necessarily know and they can eat it, or 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:22.760 out of spite, you can just deliver it to an 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.360 empty room and watch it rot. If I can't eat it, 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.920 then that chimp is definitely not eating, right, and you 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:32.920 both will sit there, mouths watering and hungry and sad. Yeah, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.840 I mean this plays into the basic spite principle. If 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.040 I can't have X, then nobody will have X. Right. 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.920 So what happened, Well, they expect that they were expecting 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.560 to see some some spie here, But in half the cases, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.440 the chimp didn't pull either of the ropes. Yeah, that's 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:53.320 interesting to me that they just decided to to be 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.040 a nerd basically not bother. A quarter of the time 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:57.680 they pull one rope, a quarter of the time they 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.160 pull the other, but mostly they didn't even bother either. 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.760 They ended up not showing altruism by delivering the food 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.600 to the hungry chimp, and they also didn't show spite 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.119 by delivering it to the empty room, so they just 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:15.480 didn't care. Yeah, what what would you do in this scenario? 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.240 I don't think I'm I'm so against food wasting. I 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.280 think if I couldn't have it, I would want it 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.520 to go to that individual. I can hardly I cannot 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.680 have a hard time imagining a situation where I'd send 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:28.960 the food to an Not to make myself sound like 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.480 a pious person, because I'm certainly not, but I would 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.360 do the same thing. I would rather see the other 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.199 person eat it, And almost like on some level, I 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.600 think that there's a biological satisfaction there. Well, you're not 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:43.840 able to eat it, Well, let's throw everyone always throws 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:47.040 out the whole time travel, the ludicrous time travel thing. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.320 Would you go back in time to murder Hitler? Which, 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.720 of course, there's all, there's all, there's so many problems 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.800 with that that question. Uh, but let's put Hitler in 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.560 this So a deep dish pizza, Hitler in the room, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:00.280 and then there's an empty room. Do you that you 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:01.920 can't eat the pizza? Do you send it to Hitler 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:03.240 and let him eat it? Or does it go to 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.800 the empty room out of spite? Yeah, I'd still I'd 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.560 still give Hitler a pizza. I mean, despite what he is, 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.000 you know, horrible atrocities, he's done. Guy deserves to. Yeah, 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.479 we waste enough food in this country, right, let him 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.800 eat the pizza. Then we'll worry about the other concerns later. 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:22.040 So yeah, and this. But the interesting thing about the 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.040 study is that not only does it cast light on 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.000 spite is this particularly human emotion, but it also makes 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.680 us considered altruism, which which likewise is a trait that's 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.679 largely attributed to humans. Now, granted, there are some some 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:36.280 strong cases to be made for altruism and species, such 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.200 as the dolphin, but we can only be certain about ourselves. 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.199 We we are altruistic. We do well, we do a 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.160 lot to help other people. Uh, but we're also spiteful, 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.160 so there seems to be this definite connection between the two. Yeah, 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.959 it certainly seems like a very human practice. Again, like 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.640 the two sides of the altruism spite coin. I mean, 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.960 I know, I'm sure that there are many pet owners 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.000 is out there right now that are thinking, well, I've 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.679 had moments where I've been sad or angry or whatever, 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.680 and my pet has come over and given me attention. Uh. 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.240 And whether they were or not, you know, it felt 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.280 like they were doing this out of altruism too, because 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.920 they didn't want their owner to be sad. Uh, they 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.320 wanted to make them happier. Yeah. And of course there 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.000 have been plenty of studies that or at least you know, 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:25.880 there are plenty of arguments out there that break down 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.679 altruism and say, well, is anything really altruistic? Are you 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:32.280 ever really doing anything solely for the good of doing it, 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.160 or you at the very least doing it to make 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:40.320 yourself feel bad? Right? There must be some subjective, subjective 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:44.320 objective at hand. And the more you think about altruism 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:46.560 in spite and then look back on the Dungeon and 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.159 dragons um alignment chart, It does seem like, you know, 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.240 certainly you can say lawful evil is where most of 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:58.159 your really spiteful behavior would go, but realistically you're probably 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:03.520 gonna see spite pop up in any given alignment, right, Yeah, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.919 I mean right. The D and D chart is always 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:07.520 just like a silly way to kind of try to 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.840 frame the world into it easily into nine easy to 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.879 understand philosophies of life. But yeah, I can imagine that 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.240 there's scenarios in which Gandhi probably felt spiteful. Yeah, I 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.280 think everybody's gonna have it off. If Gandhi's in a 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.280 room and you're in a room and there's a pizza 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:25.919 and you can pull it with a rope, do you 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:27.720 give it to Gandhi or do you let it fall 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.000 into uh, the empty room? How was Gandhi? Is he 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.320 fasting in this particular scenario, Because then I feel like 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.080 a real Oh yeah, if I sent a pizza too, 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.120 I would need to send it to the empty room 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:40.399 as much as that way, But I think that it 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.200 would show his resolve if you sent it to him 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.680 and he still didn't need Okay, so we're helping him 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.639 to make his statement. Okay, Well maybe so that leads 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.919 us to the study that was done on the different 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.600 types of personalities and how they interact with spite. Right, Yeah, definitely. 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.160 And they did not use the Dungeons and Dragon's alignment chart, 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.560 but it's wortunate but that they did that. They did 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.520 look at at a number of individuals and try and 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.919 figure out, well, who what type of personalities are going 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.320 to contain the most spite. So this research is conducted 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:13.960 by researchers from Washington State University and the University of 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.399 British Columbia, and they attempted to measure spike from us 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.760 with a test similar to those used for personality traits, right, 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.840 and they came up with like a scale right, like 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.720 how they actually surveyed. So one thing I think is 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.640 interesting about this this is this is my experience from 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.359 going to graduate school makes me critical of almost every study, 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.480 like they very much hammered it into our heads that 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.240 like any study or presented with find holes in it 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.840 immediately taken apart. And the thing that I that first 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.320