1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. Hey, I'm Christian Sagan Christian. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: What comes to mind when I mentioned the word spike? 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: When I mentioned spike is a uh is an aspect 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: of human behavior? Well, the very first thing I thought 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: of when we started talking about doing this episode. There's 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: a scene in Star Trek to the Wrath of Con 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: and Con spoilers for a movie that's like thirty years old, UH, 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: when Con is dying, but he decides that he's gonna, 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: you know, take himself out along with uh the enterprise, 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: and he recites the whole speech Captain Ahab speech from 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: movie Dick, which you know, the two parallel pretty well together. 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: So I think of Con nunion singh when I think 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: of spite, Okay, well yeah, I think I think Con 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: is definitely a very spiteful care because ULTI millions of 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: in a situation where he can't win and he could 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: bow out gracefully, but CON's not going to do that. 19 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: It's too much pride, there's too much ego there. He's 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: laying it all on the line, So he'd rather he'd 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: rather strike back and perish and get like just just 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: to you know, raise the middle finger to Kirk rather 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: than than just go out. Yeah. This is definitely the 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: core of trying to figure out spite, not not just 25 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: like how it works psychologically in our human minds, but 26 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: also like our definition of it when you go and 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: you look it up on the dictionary. It doesn't really 28 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: include the encapsulate how we think of it, right, Yeah, 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: because some of the studies that we get into, well, 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: one in particular talks about it, talks about spit and 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: says in general spike differs from aggression, which can be 32 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: exercised at little risk to an aggressor, spike carries a cost, 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: as if one were calculating that a loss is worthwhile 34 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: if it takes a toll on one's opponent as well. 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: But you don't necessarily see that in you know, your 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: standard Webster's dictionary, right, Yeah. So the idea here is 37 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: that you are willing to hurt yourself at the expense 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: of being able to hurt someone else, right, and that 39 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: hurt is not necessarily physical. Like the most extreme example 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: that comes to a lot of people's minds, I'm sure 41 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: is something like a suicide bomber, you know where they're 42 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: they're saying, I will die violently in this cause to 43 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 1: cause harm to others. But then also something in spite 44 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: that we've all probably experienced on one side of the other. Uh, 45 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: if you've ever taken your time pulling out of a 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: parking spot because you don't like the look of that 47 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: car or that driver that's waiting on it, maybe they're 48 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: being a little rude. And so in that case, the 49 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: cost is not nearly as high as losing your life, 50 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: but you are willing to look a little bit like 51 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: a jerk in order to make sure that person gets 52 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: what's coming to them. Yeah. Um, So it makes me 53 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: think of like methods of conflict management, and there's there's 54 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: several different ways that you can manage conflict, but this 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: would be what's called the competitive method of conflict management, right, 56 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: where you're basically competing against another person to win in conflict. Right, 57 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: and in this situation, you're not even winning. It's a 58 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: it's a lose loose everybody loses. Like, actually, your whole reason, 59 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: your whole goal here in leaving the parking lot is 60 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 1: to leave the parking lot and presentably get where you're 61 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: going next in the shortest amount of time, and it's required, 62 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: So you're you're hurting your own objectives, You're you're looking 63 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: like a jerk doing it. There's really no benefit other 64 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: than you feel that you know that ego stroke and 65 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: some sort of deep animalistic um pride in having, you know, 66 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: put one over on the next guy. It's not an 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: effective method of problem solving, that's for sure, but it's 68 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: something that I think is within all of us. I 69 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: have to admit that as we were researching this, I 70 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: was really digging deep inside myself trying to remember examples 71 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: where I had been spite full and I couldn't. Yeah, 72 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: and I'm sure I have been even that, even the 73 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: mild stuff like driving around the only uh yeah, I'm 74 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: I am an angry driver, but not a spiteful driver. 75 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: I so no, I can't think of it wouldn't be 76 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: like that. But um I the only thing I could 77 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: think of it as like a practical example of is 78 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: if there's somebody who I personally don't like, I won't 79 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: and I won't support their work, like whether it's a 80 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: book that they wrote or a film that they produced 81 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: or acted in or whatever. Uh even if people are like, 82 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: you have to see this, it is the best thing 83 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: ever you you know, it's going to change your life. 84 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: It's it's the best storytelling, And I go, Nope, I don't. 85 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to give that person my ten bucks. 86 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: Well have been the cough there could be my own edification. 87 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: You're in. You're messing. You're missing out on the potential 88 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: joys of this product because of the if you will. Well. 89 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: What it reminds me of is you ever read the 90 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: police blotder in Creative Loafing here in Atlanta. I think 91 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: that they have this in a lot of all weeklies 92 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: around the world, but here in Atlanta are all weekly 93 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: does this thing where they take I don't know. Every 94 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: week there's like maybe five or six little snippets out 95 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: of the actual Atlanta Police Departments log uh and of 96 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: just the craziest stories. And almost always every week there's 97 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: one story that involves spite in some way somebody who's 98 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: doing something illegal or something to hurt another person that 99 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: ultimately ends up getting them arrested. Right, um, And they're 100 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: always completely whacked out crazy stories. Some of my favorites 101 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: involved just like you know, people where half naked scrambling 102 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: down the streets and screaming in the middle of the night. 103 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: But that's not exactly spiteful, that's just you know, crazy. Yeah, 104 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: And could you certainly see it showed up too at 105 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: times with police encounters where someone decides that the best 106 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: thing they can they can do during this encounter is 107 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: to be spiteful to the officer. Yeah, right, Yeah, that's 108 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,559 Speaker 1: an interesting thing that it brings out. Law enforcement seems 109 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: to bring spite out in people and on both sides. 110 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: And not not to imply there's there's there's never some 111 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: spite from the police. No, no, absolutely, Um, so okay, 112 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: let's let's have some fune with us for a second. 113 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: So Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart. You know, for those 114 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: of you out there, you know that Robert and I 115 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: are are really into geeky stuff like this. So, uh, 116 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: what is where spite fall? I'm thinking it's neutral evil, 117 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily chaotic, there's there there's determination to it. Obviously, 118 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't follow a rule oriented uh you know practice. Yeah, 119 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: I think lawful evils probably where most of your spite 120 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: is gonna fall. But but and in that, you know, 121 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: we definitely have to think about some of the spiteful 122 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: characters we've encountered in things like like when I was 123 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: trying to think of some in addition to a ha 124 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: and con Searcy Lanister comes to mind from Game of 125 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: Thrones as being a very spiteful character who you know, 126 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: she has some some key values, you know, the importance 127 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: of her family and importance for her family, but she's 128 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: often willing to jeopardize all of it out of spite 129 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: for uh an In in the Aura received Enemy. So 130 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: if where would where would Searcy land in the Dungeon 131 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: and dragons alignment charges? I guess you, yeah, I guess 132 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: you would have to say she's lawful evil she because 133 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: she works within the I guess system of rule. Right. 134 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, that's interesting. Another one that came to mind, 135 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: And this was a much harder one to nail down 136 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: because there's you know a lot of a lot of 137 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: his motivations are still up for discussion and continue to 138 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, to be an item of discussion among critics. 139 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: But Iago in Shakespeare's a Fellow, Okay, yeah, I saw this. 140 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: Give me a little refresher on this because it's been 141 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: a while since I've read Othello. Well, basically Iago is 142 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: the character it just works against Othello the whole time 143 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: and just you know, just really kind of ruthlessly. Um. 144 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: But you never really have a clear sense why, Like 145 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: there's not a situation where it's like, oh, Fellow killed 146 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: my father or you know, generally it's a to try 147 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: and figure out why Iago is so obsessed with taking 148 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: down Othello, you have to you have to apply some 149 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: some outside interpretations such as I think Kenneth Brana when 150 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: he played Iago, he he had he approached it as 151 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: if Iago had feelings for Othello, and so his like 152 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: his his deep rooted hatred came out of you know, 153 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: inner conflict over his uh like he was burned somehow. Yeah. 154 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: So Iago is a harder character to to nail down. 155 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: But I think there's there's a certain amount of spite 156 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: to what he does in the play. Yeah. Well, I 157 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: you know, when I was researching this, one thing that 158 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: I didn't realize was like a thing was building homes 159 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: out of spite. Apparently, like if you if you just 160 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: search the word spite on Google, within at least two 161 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: or three pages, you'll find galleries of homes that were 162 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: built in spite of their neighbors. Uh, And I didn't 163 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: realize this is a thing. It's like people are purposely 164 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: building homes to annoy their neighbors that aren't necessarily practical 165 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: or functional homes that they themselves enjoy. Literally, you're talking 166 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: just like mildly so because you're always hearing about like, oh, 167 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: they're building a modern home and it's out of keeping 168 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: with their traditional homes in the neighborhood. Yeah, I think 169 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: it's more along those because then you also see those 170 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: stories like the guy in England who had a giant 171 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: shark like embedded in the roof of his house. I'm 172 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: sure that would fall under this. I'm thinking along the 173 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: lines of like that house and Beetlejuice, you know, like 174 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: like the the weird like postmodern art house that they 175 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: had there. But in that case, you know, there was 176 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: no neighborhood. In this. I think it would be like, 177 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: you know, your nextra neighbors would would hate you because 178 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: it would bring down the property values or something like that. 179 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: But this is apparently, like like I found multiple galleries 180 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: of this, so apparently it's a phenomenon. You know, it 181 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: brings to mind. Uh, I can't remember the character's name 182 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: off hand, but the the individual that Kevin Spacey portrayed 183 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: in Midnight in the Garden A good and evil. You know, 184 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: I have never seen that. My wife loves that movie, 185 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: but I still haven't New Orleans Resident, and uh, if 186 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, the individually plays, it's kind of an 187 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: eccentric kind of character. And they were filming some sort 188 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: of historical piece in his neighborhood, and they covered the 189 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: streets and dirt and you know, their horses standing around 190 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's kind of a big inconvenience for everybody. 191 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: And they were going to be shooting potentially with his 192 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: house in the background, because it's one of these nice 193 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: old homes. And so he he just draped a large 194 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: Nazi flag stick and all right there on the front 195 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: porch out of spite. You know, it's like, you're gonna 196 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: you're gonna film this neighborhood and film my house at 197 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: the backdrop. Well, I'm gonna do this, which makes completely 198 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: useless for your shoot and also brand Nazi to all 199 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: of my neighbors. Wow, Okay, yeah, I mean that could 200 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: work for sure. I So let's get into lake where 201 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: this saying of because when we think of spite, it's 202 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: always you know that that phrase to cut your nose 203 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: off despite your face. So let's think of like where 204 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: this came from. What where where is this? Well, it 205 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: apparently dates back to at least around the twelfth century. 206 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: And uh, it's generally attributed to pious women who are 207 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: just figuring themselves in order to protect the virginity against pirates, vikings, 208 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: invading armies, etcetera. Basically just to to try and disfigure 209 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: themselves so that they will be looked over when the 210 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: assaults begin. Yeah, I read a little bit about this. 211 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: This was not something I knew about before researching this episode. 212 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: These were mostly women. Uh. And this is a common 213 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: phrase you'll hear me say during medieval times. Uh that, Um, 214 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, we're so religious that they wanted to preserve 215 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: their virginity, right. And the idea, I mean, this isn't 216 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: when we're talking disfiguring. It's not just like you know, 217 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: they give themselves a scar. They're cutting off their own noses, 218 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: literally cutting off their nose, uh, cutting off their cheeks, 219 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: cutting off their upper lips. Uh. And some of these 220 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: people actually ended up becoming saints in some sense. So 221 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: st Ebba was one that I found who inspired nuns 222 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: to cut off their own noses and upper lips to 223 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: prevent themselves from being raped. Um and there are a 224 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: couple others in there as well. But yeah, that is 225 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: a practice that I was unfamiliar with. Yeah. I was 226 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: also reading that it also might be linked to medieval 227 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: acts of spite, in which the nose is cut off 228 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: as a kind of punishment. Um And and it's sadly 229 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: you see this kind of thing continue in the world today, 230 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, war torn regions of the world where uh, 231 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: women are particular demise by having their their nose cut right, 232 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: the mutilation is sort of a marking. Yeah. Yeah, And 233 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: as graphic as that is, though, remember that because when 234 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: later in the episode we will start to discuss the 235 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: links between spite and and punishment in a in a 236 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: lawful system. Yeah, it seems like there's a connection between 237 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: those things, and then altruism as well. It's it's it's 238 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: like this coin where you've got spite on one side 239 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: and altruism on the other, and it seems like they're connected. 240 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: In human psychology, so it turns out that there are 241 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: a lot of studies, at least at least four that 242 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: we found for the for this episode on spite and 243 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: sort of its origins and how it works within human 244 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: beings and animals too, right, I mean, it's apparently, you know, 245 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: many researchers considered to be an understudied area. But but 246 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: we were able to find some interesting papers about spite 247 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: and where it comes from and what it means. Uh. 248 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: The most basic place to start, of course, would be 249 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: just to ask are humans the only spiteful creatures despite 250 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: possible in any other animal on the planet. And I 251 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: would think any cat owner would assume the danswer is no, Right, Well, yeah, yeah, 252 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: you would. Certainly cats seem to do a lot of 253 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: things out of spite. Mine does as well. But but 254 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: of course, anytime you're dealing with human are actually like 255 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: how much are we projecting on them? Right with anther 256 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: morphizing there, because you know, they're basically just doing a 257 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: much of stupid stuff, and then we just assume will 258 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: you do that to spite me? Why did you get 259 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: crap on the wall? This is like watching videos of 260 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: them on the internet so much just because they remind 261 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: us of our own frailties. Yeah, Sadly, the research we're 262 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: looking at doesn't look at the spiteful cat that would 263 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: have I would like to read a study looking at 264 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: spite and felines, but uh in particular, this was a 265 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: two thousand six study conducted at the Wolfgang Coler Primate 266 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: Research Center and Lives of Germany by Max Playing Institute researchers. 267 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, they're looking at chimpanzees, which of course 268 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: is a great place to look because what seems like 269 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: the post. Before we get into what they found, let's 270 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: describe the methodology here because it's a little I think 271 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: it's a little complicated, right, so um, Dr Kenneth sorry, 272 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: Dr Keith Jensen and his team, they presented the chips 273 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: that they had in captivity with this choice. By the way, 274 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: this all sounds like like an origin film for Planet 275 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: of the Apes, like it was a little scary. They 276 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: gave them the choice to pull one of two ropes, 277 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: and by pulling these ropes, they would either deliver food 278 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: to another chim chimpanzee or deliver it to an empty room. 279 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming to that like all of the chimpanzees 280 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: involved in this can see one another and see these 281 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: empty rooms. In either case, the chimpanzee pulling the rope 282 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: did not receive any food themselves, right, So there was 283 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: they didn't get food themselves even though they were hungry. 284 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: So they had a choice to either give the food 285 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: to the other chimp or send it to an empty 286 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: room as a spiteful action towards the other chimp. And 287 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: the chimp wants food, it's a hungry chimp. Yeah, So 288 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: you can imagine yourself in that in a similar scenario. 289 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: If you had your your most favorite meal in the world. Yeah, 290 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: let's say it's I don't know, a deep dish pizza 291 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: and it's right there, right there behind the glass. You 292 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: can't eat it. You can pull one rope and have 293 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: it to land on a plate for another hungry individual 294 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: you don't necessarily know and they can eat it, or 295 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: out of spite, you can just deliver it to an 296 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: empty room and watch it rot. If I can't eat it, 297 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: then that chimp is definitely not eating, right, and you 298 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: both will sit there, mouths watering and hungry and sad. Yeah, 299 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: I mean this plays into the basic spite principle. If 300 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: I can't have X, then nobody will have X. Right. 301 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: So what happened, Well, they expect that they were expecting 302 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: to see some some spie here, But in half the cases, 303 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: the chimp didn't pull either of the ropes. Yeah, that's 304 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: interesting to me that they just decided to to be 305 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: a nerd basically not bother. A quarter of the time 306 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: they pull one rope, a quarter of the time they 307 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: pull the other, but mostly they didn't even bother either. 308 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: They ended up not showing altruism by delivering the food 309 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: to the hungry chimp, and they also didn't show spite 310 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: by delivering it to the empty room, so they just 311 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: didn't care. Yeah, what what would you do in this scenario? 312 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm I'm so against food wasting. I 313 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: think if I couldn't have it, I would want it 314 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: to go to that individual. I can hardly I cannot 315 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: have a hard time imagining a situation where I'd send 316 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: the food to an Not to make myself sound like 317 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: a pious person, because I'm certainly not, but I would 318 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: do the same thing. I would rather see the other 319 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: person eat it, And almost like on some level, I 320 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: think that there's a biological satisfaction there. Well, you're not 321 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: able to eat it, Well, let's throw everyone always throws 322 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: out the whole time travel, the ludicrous time travel thing. 323 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: Would you go back in time to murder Hitler? Which, 324 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: of course, there's all, there's all, there's so many problems 325 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: with that that question. Uh, but let's put Hitler in 326 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: this So a deep dish pizza, Hitler in the room, 327 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: and then there's an empty room. Do you that you 328 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: can't eat the pizza? Do you send it to Hitler 329 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: and let him eat it? Or does it go to 330 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: the empty room out of spite? Yeah, I'd still I'd 331 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: still give Hitler a pizza. I mean, despite what he is, 332 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, horrible atrocities, he's done. Guy deserves to. Yeah, 333 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: we waste enough food in this country, right, let him 334 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: eat the pizza. Then we'll worry about the other concerns later. 335 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, and this. But the interesting thing about the 336 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: study is that not only does it cast light on 337 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: spite is this particularly human emotion, but it also makes 338 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: us considered altruism, which which likewise is a trait that's 339 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: largely attributed to humans. Now, granted, there are some some 340 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: strong cases to be made for altruism and species, such 341 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: as the dolphin, but we can only be certain about ourselves. 342 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: We we are altruistic. We do well, we do a 343 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: lot to help other people. Uh, but we're also spiteful, 344 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: so there seems to be this definite connection between the two. Yeah, 345 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: it certainly seems like a very human practice. Again, like 346 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: the two sides of the altruism spite coin. I mean, 347 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: I know, I'm sure that there are many pet owners 348 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: is out there right now that are thinking, well, I've 349 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: had moments where I've been sad or angry or whatever, 350 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: and my pet has come over and given me attention. Uh. 351 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: And whether they were or not, you know, it felt 352 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: like they were doing this out of altruism too, because 353 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: they didn't want their owner to be sad. Uh, they 354 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: wanted to make them happier. Yeah. And of course there 355 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: have been plenty of studies that or at least you know, 356 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: there are plenty of arguments out there that break down 357 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: altruism and say, well, is anything really altruistic? Are you 358 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: ever really doing anything solely for the good of doing it, 359 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: or you at the very least doing it to make 360 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: yourself feel bad? Right? There must be some subjective, subjective 361 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: objective at hand. And the more you think about altruism 362 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: in spite and then look back on the Dungeon and 363 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: dragons um alignment chart, It does seem like, you know, 364 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: certainly you can say lawful evil is where most of 365 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: your really spiteful behavior would go, but realistically you're probably 366 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: gonna see spite pop up in any given alignment, right, Yeah, 367 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 1: I mean right. The D and D chart is always 368 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: just like a silly way to kind of try to 369 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: frame the world into it easily into nine easy to 370 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: understand philosophies of life. But yeah, I can imagine that 371 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: there's scenarios in which Gandhi probably felt spiteful. Yeah, I 372 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: think everybody's gonna have it off. If Gandhi's in a 373 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: room and you're in a room and there's a pizza 374 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: and you can pull it with a rope, do you 375 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: give it to Gandhi or do you let it fall 376 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: into uh, the empty room? How was Gandhi? Is he 377 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: fasting in this particular scenario, Because then I feel like 378 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: a real Oh yeah, if I sent a pizza too, 379 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: I would need to send it to the empty room 380 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: as much as that way, But I think that it 381 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: would show his resolve if you sent it to him 382 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: and he still didn't need Okay, so we're helping him 383 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: to make his statement. Okay, Well maybe so that leads 384 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: us to the study that was done on the different 385 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: types of personalities and how they interact with spite. Right, Yeah, definitely. 386 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: And they did not use the Dungeons and Dragon's alignment chart, 387 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: but it's wortunate but that they did that. They did 388 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: look at at a number of individuals and try and 389 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: figure out, well, who what type of personalities are going 390 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: to contain the most spite. So this research is conducted 391 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: by researchers from Washington State University and the University of 392 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: British Columbia, and they attempted to measure spike from us 393 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: with a test similar to those used for personality traits, right, 394 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: and they came up with like a scale right, like 395 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: how they actually surveyed. So one thing I think is 396 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: interesting about this this is this is my experience from 397 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: going to graduate school makes me critical of almost every study, 398 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: like they very much hammered it into our heads that 399 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: like any study or presented with find holes in it 400 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: immediately taken apart. And the thing that I that first 401 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: struck me about this was that the people that they 402 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: surveyed were all at universities. Yeah, this is a problem 403 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: we we discussed in UM an episode from earlier this 404 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: year about about your studies. That's so often you're you're 405 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: inevitably dealing with with a bunch of you know, waspy 406 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: college students in these scenarios. Yeah, they're they're all. What 407 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: this tells us is how spiteful academics and their and 408 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: their students are not necessarily what the world is. It's 409 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: not it's not a general population example here. But they 410 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: developed this spitefulness scale. They surveyed people at two different universities, 411 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: and it was online, right, so they were able to 412 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: um get some older participants in as well. So maybe yeah, 413 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: maybe those people weren't involved with the university and they yeah, 414 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: they're using the scale. They graded in them how much 415 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: they agreed with seventeen different scenarios, such as, if my 416 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: neighbor complained that I was playing my music too loud, 417 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: then I might turn the music up even loud or 418 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: just to irritate him or her, even if it meant 419 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: I could get fined. So this is this is actually 420 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: another great spie. This is a real world example that 421 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: I can relate to being the neighbor in this situation 422 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: loud neighbor or with h well, I wouldn't call myself either. 423 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: But I when I very first moved to Atlanta, there 424 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: was a person who lived direct lee below me that 425 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: played very, very loud dance music all night. Uh and um, 426 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: you know it was I think maybe a week went by. 427 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: My wife and I were like, all right, this is 428 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: this is a little bit much. We thought maybe it 429 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: was like a one night thing. My wife went downstairs 430 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: knocked on the door to to ask this guy if 431 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: he would turn the music down, and he told his 432 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: dog to sick her. Yeah, and luckily my wife is 433 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: good with animals, so the dog just kind of jumped 434 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: up and she paid it. But there's maybe snapped it snaps. 435 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: My wife is also a lethal assassin. Uh. But yeah, 436 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: I mean this guy was definitely playing his music at 437 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: us out of spite. I mean, even after she had asked, 438 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: didn't you turn off your music to to make his 439 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: music less enjoyable? I have to admit that there, Yes, 440 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: this was Okay, here we go. This is one of 441 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: my moments where I was spiteful. Yeah. At the time, 442 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: I was playing because we had just moved here. I 443 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: was playing all of my music through a four by 444 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: twelve guitar amp that I had, which is very loud 445 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: and yeah, I crank it up all right. Another one 446 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: on the list. Just to give another example, I would 447 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: rather know one get extra credit in a class if 448 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: it meant that others would receive more credit than me. 449 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: That one's strange to me. Yeah, like that that one 450 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: I feel like, because the other example is more like 451 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: if you push me, I'm going to push back, right, 452 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: even if we had both miserable, like if if if 453 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: one if, I would rather as both be miserable than 454 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: just me be miserable like that that one, I can 455 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: I can see. This one is more like if I 456 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: refuse to lose and I don't care what the cost is. 457 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: It's that competition thing again for sure. Yeah m hmm. Well, 458 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: so the results of this test weren't particularly shocking where 459 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: they like. They compared it to other personality tests that 460 00:24:53,320 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: marked things like aggression, psychopathy, narcissism, self consciousness, self esteem. 461 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: This one I found interesting. Machiavellianism, So how do you 462 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: measure Machiavellianism is one thing I'd like to learn more about. 463 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: But what surprised me about it as well is that 464 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: if you are Machiavellian, aren't you by nature inherently uh, 465 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: manipulating planning so that you see benefits, so that you 466 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: win well to to go back to Game of Thrones 467 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: a little bit like little Finger, very machi vellian. Is 468 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: he ever spiteful? Do we ever do things out of spite? 469 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: Does he even include a little spite bonus item in 470 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: his actions? Oh? Wow, that's an interesting question. And I 471 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: don't want to get into too much spoiler territory for people, 472 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: although I mean it's everywhere at this point, but I 473 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: can't really think of a particular example, can you not? 474 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: Off hand? It seems like he's a chess player, that's 475 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: for sure. It seems like maybe there's some unintentional spite, 476 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: and it's like spide is just kind of a byproduct, 477 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: like I'm going to get what I want. I'm gonna 478 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: played the long game to get what I want, and 479 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: you're gonna lose when I win. But yeah, but how 480 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: much he doesn't necessarily seem to go out of his 481 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: way to to add extra hurt heisting on top of 482 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: what he does, which is a compliment in the Game 483 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: of Thrones world. Yeah, okay, well let's well, let's go 484 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: into this for a second. Spoilers for Game of Thrones 485 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: season one and the first book. Uh. So when he, 486 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, makes his whole move for power in that 487 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: first season, he uh gets ned Start killed, and even 488 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: though that wasn't his intention, he was spiteful towards ned 489 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: Stark because ned Stark married the woman he wanted to 490 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: be married to, so it was it was a It 491 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: didn't hurt him though, So I don't know that it 492 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: was spite he won. Yeah, yeah, I don't. I wouldn't 493 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: call it spite. Yeah, I don't think it was spie. Yeah. 494 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: Well that's interesting. I'm sure that somebody out there have 495 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: an example for us of Little Fingers spitefulness. I real 496 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: side note here I love over at Ion nine. They 497 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: have this theory that all of Game of Thrones is 498 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: just a chess game between Little Finger and Varis, and 499 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: that it's just all about their machiavellian moves against one another. 500 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: So so if there is spite in in in a 501 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: in either of their stories, it would somehow impact the others. Now, 502 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: coming back to this, uh this study, uh, just to 503 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: throw out where the spikes seemed to pool. In the study, 504 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: they saw most spite in people among people who scored 505 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: high in psychopathy, um, those who are particularly callous, unsympathetic, 506 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: unemotional and they saw us a Spiefulness was also greater 507 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: in people who scored high in narcissism and machiavellianism. So 508 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: that's it. That's also interesting to think about because if 509 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: they're unemotional, um, then what pleasure are they getting out 510 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: of the spieful action? Mhmm. You know, I wonder if 511 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: it's people who are like pure, like like maybe we 512 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: get into a kind of a false model with some 513 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: of these fictional Machiavellian individuals, Like maybe nobody's really that 514 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: Machiavelian and it's more about I I'm spiteful, and if 515 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: I think about my own spite in a Mockavellian sense, 516 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: that I'm not being spiteful, like you're just you're you're 517 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: gonna lose against me and you're gonna pay the consequences 518 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: of that. But but spie is not the spearhead of 519 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: it on my motion, It's not the fuel for the 520 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: whole thing. Yeah, that's that's possible. Now, people with lots 521 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: of guilt scored low, but those with shame scored higher. 522 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: So that's an interesting to make the distiction distinction, because 523 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: if if you're guilty, you did something bad, but if 524 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: you're shameful, you are bad in terms of how we 525 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: think about guilt and shame. Yeah, and and this is 526 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: also the study where it shut. They first came up 527 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: with a conclusion that men score higher on the spite 528 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: scale than women. Right, uh, And I like how it 529 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: was phrased here the dark triad of psychopathy, narcissism, and 530 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: Machiavilli the dark triad, so that even though they weren't 531 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: exactly using the dungeons Dragon's alignment system, but using language 532 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 1: that made me think of it. Yeah. Yeah. And then 533 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: also children, well, this is another thing that they found 534 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: in this study. Children will often pick up on a 535 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: situation that invites spite, but they won't necessarily act on it, right, 536 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: but they realize what's going on when they had the 537 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: opportunity for it. And yet at this same time, they 538 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: found that older people are less likely to be spiteful 539 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: than younger people. So on the children's side of it, 540 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: I can I imagine it's a lot of it is 541 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: that you have to you have to learn that spiteful, 542 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: but hey, it's the one thing to recognize, well, this 543 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: isn't fair what has happened. But then to to to 544 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: get to that point where you can actually act out 545 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: spitefully because of it, Yeah, that's that's something you have 546 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: to pick up. So this is all right. This has 547 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: no basis in the studies that we read for for 548 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: today's episode. But I'm thinking here that it's possible that 549 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: spite and maybe also altruism are learned behaviors that have 550 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: to be modeled, right, and that that is why human 551 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: beings are more likely to have them, uh than chimpanzees. 552 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: For instance. The chimps don't have models that are showing 553 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: them how to be spiteful. Maybe if you showed those 554 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 1: chimpanzees the spiteful action of withholding a pizza from Hitler 555 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: uh and then laughed about it with them a couple 556 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: of times, then they would do it. They would be 557 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: more likely to do it. Yeah. And it's as we'll 558 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: we'll discuss in in the in the next section. Um, 559 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: it seems that that altruism and spite kind of emerge 560 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: from a sufficiently complex system, you know. Um that maybe 561 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: it's just a situation where chimpanzee intelligence and culture is 562 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: just not reach the level to where spite an altruism 563 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,719 Speaker 1: immerge to do battle with each other. Yeah. Absolutely, Well again, 564 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: I say, let's avoid the Planet of the Apes scenario. 565 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want, uh, you know, I'd rather 566 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: the dawn of the Planet of the Apes scenario, not 567 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: not not the first one with Charlton Heston, but the 568 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: more recent ones. You know, I don't want to teach 569 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: these animals are are failings. Yeah, well, and I don't 570 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: want to see him ride around on horses or shoot 571 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: me at all Right, We're gonna take a quick break 572 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: and then we'll be right back, all right. So the 573 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: next bit of research we looked at this is this 574 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: came from Patrick Forber of Toughs University and Roy Smeed 575 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: of Northeastern and they applied game theory to the study 576 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: of spite, designing a cute computer model of virtual players 577 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: challenging each other to a single round of the Ultimatum game. Okay, well, 578 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: as somebody who has played h M M O RPG before, 579 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: or really any online gaming system, I'm going to imagine 580 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: that they found that spite was pretty heavily dominant within 581 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: a gaming community. Are there spiteful gamers? Oh god? It 582 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: feels like it when you're playing it. Yeah, the people 583 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: whom I don't forget what it's called. It's like they 584 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: jump up and down on your corps after they've killed you. 585 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: I haven't heard of that one. I guess that's not spiteful. 586 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: They're not hurting themselves. But yeah, people will certainly do like. Well, 587 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: that's the thing about the costing online, right, as you 588 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: have a lot of room to be spiteful without having 589 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: to pay the cost of the spy. That is absolutely true. Right, 590 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: So that's probably something we should keep in mind with 591 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: the results of this study. Um, another spiteful gaming thing. 592 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: I guess that rage quitting is spiteful behavior. Yes, to 593 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: lose gracefully, I'm going to just leave the game. You 594 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: don't get the like the point or whatever for your victory, 595 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: but I don't have to sit here and watch you, 596 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: you know, victorious over me. Yeah. The classic to you 597 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: know who leroid Enkins is. Oh, I defer the name. 598 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: So there is this. This is a nerdy world of 599 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: warcraft thing from probably the mid two thousand's. He was 600 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: He was made famous for this saying. Somebody recorded it. 601 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: You can find it on YouTube. His name was Leary Jenkins. 602 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: He was part of a raid group that was playing 603 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: World of Warcraft and UH, rather than you know, let 604 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: his team win, he ran in UH and purposely sabotaged 605 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: the team's efforts to conquer this dungeon and got them 606 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: all killed. And UH is known for yelling out his 607 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: name as he did it, le Roy Jenkins, and runs 608 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: into this thing and kills everybody. And you can hear 609 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: all these guys over their little headsets getting angry at 610 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: him for ruining their game. All right, well that's that's 611 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: that's pretty spectacularly spike. Yeah, the Leroy Jenkins spite model. 612 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: So ultimatum game. Uh. The way this plays out according 613 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: to the rules, player A decides how a pot of 614 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: money is going to be shared with player B. Okay, 615 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: half and half. Say eight percent for A and twenty 616 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: percent for B. You have B consented to the split. 617 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: Both received the agreed upon portion, but if BE rejected 618 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: the offer, neither player received anything. Okay, So I could 619 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: say goes to me and one percent goes to you, 620 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: and you would get that one percent if you agreed 621 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: to it, or you would get nothing and I would 622 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: get nothing if you did not agree to it. Yeah, 623 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a test of sort of of 624 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: ego but also trust. And so after they carried out 625 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: this game, the researchers then allowed the players to form 626 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: into mock societies. And this is where it gets really interesting. 627 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: Like model you in here. Yeah, so the different sort 628 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: of type individuals, you know, assembling into these groups. Groups 629 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: that work up full of excessively spitefuble or selfish players 630 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: quickly collapse. So you just have like a bunch of 631 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: like the worst gamers in the world. Imagine trying to 632 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: run a society together. It just completely fall apart because 633 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: there's no structure there. Everybody is a massive jerk. It's 634 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: like a trolling community. Yeah, the trolling community is just 635 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: gonna be like cannibalism and madness within an hour. Right. Yeah. Likewise, 636 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: you would have these rigidly fair minded societies and these 637 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: work okay until you end up with one selfish invader 638 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: and they just tear the whole thing apart. Really Okay, 639 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 1: that's interesting, So just one person, one or two can 640 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: destabilize the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, you have you know, 641 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: one morelock wanders in your peaceful village and it just 642 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: rips everything to shreds apart. Okay, all right, and then 643 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: they found uh that flexible shares though, right, they were 644 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: able to coexist with spiteful people. Yeah, this is where 645 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: we see this interesting balance of altruism and spite uh, 646 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: because the presence of spiteful individuals actually enhanced the rate 647 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: of fair exchanges among the non spiteful, So they kind 648 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: of end up balancing each other out. Yeah, so just fact. 649 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: But this this requires your you know, community of people 650 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: to be what we call flexible shares here, right, Um, 651 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: they by their being spiteful people there, it inherently teaches 652 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: them to be more altruistic. So again, this is like 653 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: modeled behavior, even if it's like almost like a reverse psychology. Interesting, yeah, Patrick, 654 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: forber in the study, he said it could be that 655 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: Nichi was right about punishment, that it originated as spite 656 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: and only later was turned into a mechanism from maintaining 657 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: fairness and justice. This uh podcast is not the place 658 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: for us to dive deep into this, but it also 659 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: reminds me of the punishment theories of Michelle fauco Um 660 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: and which I believe, you know, he was influenced by 661 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: Nizzi in that respect. So yeah, punishment and altruism are 662 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: all connected together. Yeah, I mean it gets into the 663 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: question of what is what is a punishment for a crime? Like, 664 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: what are you trying to do? Are you trying to 665 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: just actually just drive home some sort of spiteful punishment 666 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 1: into the individual You're trying to make a corrective action 667 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: on society, make an example help that person. Yeah, is 668 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: it in deterrence? Is it punishment? Is it rehabilitation? And 669 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: then whatever it is, now, what did it evolve from that? 670 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: Rehabilitation would be seen as the altruistic version of that 671 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, Yeah, and punt, whereas just pure punishment 672 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: would be more on the spiteful end. When the office 673 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: of that study also pointed out that this would make 674 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 1: sense to this balance, it ends up being maintained because 675 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: you're it's not only the lawful individuals in this society, 676 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: the good people, non cheaters, that are going to contribute 677 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: to the rule of law, but the cheaters are also 678 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: going to because the rule breakers also have a vested 679 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: interest in punishing other rule breakers. Yeah, it's like the 680 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: whole scenario when you have you know, gangsters take over 681 00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: a neighborhood and some sort of you know, like a 682 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: god Father type scenario. They're gonna cut down on the 683 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: crime in their turf so they can carry out there. Yeah, 684 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: I remember reading that and one of these articles they 685 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: were that that was their example was that like the 686 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: mafia is known for for protecting the neighborhood at the 687 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: same time that it's criminalizing it. Interesting. So there's two 688 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: researchers involved in this study, dB Croup and Peter Taylor. Uh, 689 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: And it looks like what they did was they developed 690 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: a new theoretical model of spite, like how we understand spite, right, 691 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: and like how individuals enacted. Yeah, and their their findings 692 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: where the first of all, individuals who appear very different 693 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: from most others in a group will evolve to be 694 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: altruistic towards similar partners and only slightful, slightfully spiteful to 695 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: those who are dissimilar to them. So, so we're talking 696 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: about like an outsider scenario. Yeah, Like I instantly think 697 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: of like a high school high scenario. You know. So 698 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: it's like you have the like the cool kids and 699 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: the job kids, and the kids who fit into larger, 700 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: um more accepted groups. Okay, and then you have you know, 701 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: the geek, your crew you know, uh that that I 702 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: was definitely a part of so in this too. So 703 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: in this scenario, me and you at the geeky table, 704 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna be and we're gonna have a lot of 705 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: altruism towards each other, and we're gonna have maybe a 706 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: little bit of spite towards the folks at the jock table, 707 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 1: but not a lot. We're not going out of our 708 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: way to you know, put things in their their lunch 709 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: trays or whatever. Well. That what what I find fascinating 710 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: about this aspect of the study, and there's more to 711 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: it is it's sort of um debunks common thinking psychology 712 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: about incidents like the Columbine shootings, right, and the idea 713 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: that they were spiteful. They were outsiders who were enacting 714 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: their spite upon the community that they felt like they 715 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: didn't belong to. So the second part might play into 716 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: that a little more. Yeah, the second part is that 717 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: individuals who appear very similar to the rest of a 718 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: group in other words, the people at the jock table, cetera, 719 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: that the main population members, they will evolve to be 720 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: only slightly altruistic to similar partners, but very spiteful too. 721 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: Dissimilar individuals and then even go out of their way 722 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: to hurt them. So in this scenario, so that explains 723 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: all the times that I got beat up in high 724 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: school that would that would that would fall into this 725 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: because you have the the main population is going to 726 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: go out of their way to be spiteful and even 727 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: hurt individuals that that that look out of place. But 728 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: on the other side, they're only being marginally altruistic to 729 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: even their their their own kind. Yeah, yeah, they're they're 730 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: that's interesting. So this seems to connect to that um 731 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: sort of basic psychological understanding of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. 732 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: You know what I'm talking about that like pyramid of 733 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: there are various needs that we as human beings have 734 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: to fulfill before we can sort of get to a 735 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: point of self actualization. Right, and this seems very connected 736 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: to the Maslow's idea of belonging. Right that like, if 737 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: you feel like you belong to a group, and that 738 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: group is an outsider group, then you're more likely to 739 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 1: care for them, to be altruistic to them. Uh, but 740 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: if your group is if you belong to a group 741 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: that is I guess more or less popularized. Um, if 742 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: you're less likely to feel that way. Yeah, and I 743 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: could also see where there's there's there's more of a 744 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: necessity for that altruism in that outsider group because you 745 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: need each other more survival attack, whereas if you're just 746 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,439 Speaker 1: one of the larger dominant power structure, you know what, 747 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: it's just not as necessary more spread out even I guess, 748 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: so it's certainly you know, I remarked by the way, 749 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: I didn't get beat up that much in high school. 750 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: But I remarked that it explains schoolyard bullying, which we 751 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: have down here, but also explains things like racism and prejudice, right, Yeah, 752 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: I mean, definitely you can. You can take this study 753 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: and apply to just about any scenario where one group 754 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: is being spiteful to a small another smaller group, or 755 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: or even look at you know, some of your more 756 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: some of your examples of just really altruistic individuals and 757 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: their potential outsider status. You know, let me just think 758 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 1: about it, like who's who's weirder on the street, the 759 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 1: guy who's walking around just being really nice to everybody, 760 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: or the guy who's walking around scowling like that's Sadly, 761 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: we often think it's the nice individual like, what is 762 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: what's going on with that person? What's their game? The 763 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: dude that's just being spiteful, you know, he's just another 764 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: grumpy individual walking around the city. All right, So things 765 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,439 Speaker 1: I've learned about myself in this episode are that, even 766 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,919 Speaker 1: though I'm the guy in the streets scowling, I'm more 767 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: likely to give a pizza to somebody if I won't 768 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: get a pizza myself, right, provided they seem to be 769 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,919 Speaker 1: a member of your group, yeah, and are not out 770 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: off Hitler. Okay, well I would get it. I'd still 771 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: give Hitler pizza, yeah, yeah, but I'd be more are 772 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: likely to give you know one of our listeners of pizza. Yeah. 773 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: This research only had me pausing to think a lot 774 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: about my actions and and some of the things that 775 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: I've done that I've I can look back on and say, well, 776 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: there's a bit of spite in doing that. Or or 777 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: at times I'll sort of I'll catch myself engaging in 778 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: sort of fantasy spite, you know, where I imagine myself 779 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: being spiteful, but I don't actually do it because because 780 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: the cost is too high. You know, I would look 781 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: like a jerk, or I would just feel like a 782 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: massive jerk. If I did that, and I can get 783 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: the same sort of momentary satisfactory by just imagining that 784 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: I did, That's a that makes it a uniquely human 785 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: thing as well. Probably right, that we can vicariously, uh 786 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: live out the pleasure of spite in our imaginations. Yeah, 787 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: like to go back to that chimp scen area we're 788 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: in that you know, we can sit there and we 789 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: can we could think to ourselves. You know, Hitler, I 790 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: could just send that pizza to an empty room and 791 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: you would totally deserve it. But me, I'm a really 792 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,760 Speaker 1: nice guy and I'm gonna send you that pizza anyway, 793 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: and they canna high five yourself and you walk off 794 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: and probably buy pizza somewhere. Well, so I want to know. Uh. 795 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: You know, this obviously brought up some issues for for 796 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: both of us, thinking about how we've been spiteful in 797 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: the past or maybe altruistic as well. But I'm curious 798 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: from our listeners, you know, do you feel that these 799 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: studies line up with your experiences of spite in your 800 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: life or possibly altruism? Would you give Hitler the pizza? 801 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: Uh or Gandhi for that matter. Let us know you 802 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook, Twitter, or Tumbler, and we're 803 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: below the Mind on all those platforms, Or you can 804 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: reach out to us on the mother chip, which is 805 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's right. You'll 806 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: find all the podcast episodes there, all the blog post, 807 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: all the videos, links out to social media accounts, you 808 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: name it, and please let us know about your experiences 809 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: with spite and whether they lined up with what we 810 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: talked about today by writing to us at blow the 811 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: Mind at how stuff works dot com for more on 812 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, because it how stuff 813 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: Works dot com