1
00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:26,036
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, So in this episode of Not Lost Chat,

2
00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:31,676
Speaker 1: I speak with writer and traveler Jessica to Bongo, and

3
00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:37,876
Speaker 1: as you'll learn, she's been to every recognized country in

4
00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:43,036
Speaker 1: the world, which is incredible. I mean, I've been to

5
00:00:44,036 --> 00:00:48,436
Speaker 1: every recognized pizza shop in North Brooklyn, but foreign countries.

6
00:00:49,236 --> 00:00:50,596
Speaker 1: Let's just say, I'm going to have to get to

7
00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:53,276
Speaker 1: work if I want to catch up with her. But

8
00:00:54,036 --> 00:00:56,956
Speaker 1: reading her book to Catch Me if you can, did

9
00:00:56,996 --> 00:01:00,476
Speaker 1: get me thinking about, you know, where was the furthest

10
00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:03,916
Speaker 1: that I've ever gone from home? And I started reminisce

11
00:01:03,956 --> 00:01:09,476
Speaker 1: about adventures in Brazil and Japan and Estonia. And I

12
00:01:09,556 --> 00:01:12,996
Speaker 1: was going to write a kind of moody intro essay

13
00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:17,116
Speaker 1: to put here, you know, part tone poem, part personal reflection,

14
00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:22,796
Speaker 1: some musical flourishes. But then a guy on the l

15
00:01:22,876 --> 00:01:31,036
Speaker 1: train coughed in my face and I contracted RSV. So

16
00:01:31,396 --> 00:01:33,156
Speaker 1: that's going to have to wait until the next episode.

17
00:01:33,676 --> 00:01:36,996
Speaker 1: But don't worry, because there is lots of fun content

18
00:01:37,156 --> 00:01:40,676
Speaker 1: in store for you. In this episode, they're listening to

19
00:01:41,196 --> 00:01:46,316
Speaker 1: the aforementioned Jessica Nabongo will tell us about her travel adventures,

20
00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:50,876
Speaker 1: including the scariest place she's ever been hint she didn't

21
00:01:50,876 --> 00:01:54,636
Speaker 1: need a passport to go there. Also, the musical duo

22
00:01:54,796 --> 00:01:58,996
Speaker 1: The Twins, the sisters Tegan and Sarah, come by and

23
00:01:59,556 --> 00:02:02,396
Speaker 1: talk about the touring life. They've been touring since they

24
00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:05,116
Speaker 1: were teenagers. Before they could drive, they used to take

25
00:02:05,116 --> 00:02:07,676
Speaker 1: a greyhound between gigs, and while now they have an

26
00:02:07,796 --> 00:02:10,636
Speaker 1: entire bus. They talk about that and they answer listen

27
00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:14,516
Speaker 1: to travel questions. So stick around, and I promise that

28
00:02:14,596 --> 00:02:18,236
Speaker 1: you'll learn at least one interesting thing. Again, this show's

29
00:02:18,276 --> 00:02:19,876
Speaker 1: really blowing my mind because I feel like I'm like

30
00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:22,436
Speaker 1: leaving with two like brand new thoughts in my brain.

31
00:02:22,556 --> 00:02:27,996
Speaker 1: All right, two two interesting things more after sigh these

32
00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:36,196
Speaker 1: advertisements welcome back to Not Lost Chat, my series of

33
00:02:36,236 --> 00:02:40,796
Speaker 1: conversations with fellow travelers. I am Brendan Franz's Nunham. The

34
00:02:40,836 --> 00:02:44,276
Speaker 1: idea behind this series was for me to talk to

35
00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:48,796
Speaker 1: people in the travel space, because when I did the

36
00:02:48,796 --> 00:02:51,116
Speaker 1: first season of the show, I wasn't really one of

37
00:02:51,116 --> 00:02:53,996
Speaker 1: those people. I had had a travel column, I was

38
00:02:54,036 --> 00:02:57,316
Speaker 1: a traveler. I did do some writing, but I was

39
00:02:57,516 --> 00:03:00,396
Speaker 1: blinging it. And so now that I'm here, I thought,

40
00:03:00,836 --> 00:03:04,716
Speaker 1: let me meet other folks who've been here, and we're

41
00:03:04,716 --> 00:03:06,916
Speaker 1: going to talk to lots of writers and people who've

42
00:03:06,956 --> 00:03:10,236
Speaker 1: spent their time thinking about travel. But if you're thinking

43
00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:13,476
Speaker 1: about the modern world and traveling, you can't help but

44
00:03:13,636 --> 00:03:19,516
Speaker 1: think of influencers, those modern sentinels on the lookout for

45
00:03:19,836 --> 00:03:24,476
Speaker 1: all that is glamorous and instagrammable. And my guest today

46
00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:28,636
Speaker 1: might be considered an influencer, but her writing and mission

47
00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:32,916
Speaker 1: are a bit more substitutive than say, bathing suit selfies

48
00:03:32,996 --> 00:03:38,676
Speaker 1: with an endangered species. Jessica Nobongo is basically a professional traveler.

49
00:03:39,356 --> 00:03:42,196
Speaker 1: She is also the first black American woman to document

50
00:03:42,316 --> 00:03:45,996
Speaker 1: visiting every single country in the world, and earlier this year,

51
00:03:46,076 --> 00:03:48,676
Speaker 1: she published a book about her travels called The Catch

52
00:03:48,756 --> 00:03:52,876
Speaker 1: Me if you Can, And that title totally fits because

53
00:03:52,996 --> 00:03:56,316
Speaker 1: Jessica was kind of hard to catch. She's always on

54
00:03:56,316 --> 00:03:59,396
Speaker 1: the move. But thanks to some deft sleuthing on my

55
00:03:59,476 --> 00:04:03,116
Speaker 1: part and her book publicist, I was able to get

56
00:04:03,116 --> 00:04:10,796
Speaker 1: some time with her while she was temporarily on the ground. Well,

57
00:04:10,796 --> 00:04:13,596
Speaker 1: I guess my first question is just where are you now?

58
00:04:13,796 --> 00:04:17,396
Speaker 1: And no idea where you are? I am in West

59
00:04:17,436 --> 00:04:21,396
Speaker 1: Hollywood right now. I just got back in the country Thursday.

60
00:04:21,396 --> 00:04:25,116
Speaker 1: Are you just constantly a little bit disoriented? Like about

61
00:04:25,156 --> 00:04:27,356
Speaker 1: what the weather is, what day it is, like, what's

62
00:04:27,356 --> 00:04:30,596
Speaker 1: happening in your town. I recall a couple of years

63
00:04:30,596 --> 00:04:33,556
Speaker 1: ago being in a target and literally, for like maybe

64
00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:36,516
Speaker 1: fifteen seconds, I could not remember what city I was

65
00:04:36,556 --> 00:04:40,156
Speaker 1: in because it's like, wait, where am I It's it's

66
00:04:40,196 --> 00:04:42,236
Speaker 1: the weirdest thing in the world. So I never know

67
00:04:42,276 --> 00:04:46,476
Speaker 1: what day it is like that is always elusive. You've

68
00:04:46,516 --> 00:04:50,116
Speaker 1: outstripped your consciousness, like you've traveled so much. You are

69
00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:54,476
Speaker 1: a pure traveler, and I'm wondering, how do you describe yourself?

70
00:04:56,076 --> 00:05:00,716
Speaker 1: You know, I'm someone where travel is the air that

71
00:05:00,796 --> 00:05:03,836
Speaker 1: I breathe, you know, like I've been traveling internationally since

72
00:05:03,876 --> 00:05:07,036
Speaker 1: I was for My family is from Uganda, so it's

73
00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:10,636
Speaker 1: really something that we've always done. Every summer when I

74
00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:13,596
Speaker 1: was little, we did something, whether it was camping in

75
00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:16,156
Speaker 1: the US, going on an American road trip, or going

76
00:05:16,236 --> 00:05:18,876
Speaker 1: to the Cayman Islands or Jamaica or back to Uganda.

77
00:05:18,996 --> 00:05:21,396
Speaker 1: We did something. So, you know, a lot of people

78
00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:23,196
Speaker 1: have asked me, oh, you've been to every country in

79
00:05:23,196 --> 00:05:25,916
Speaker 1: the world. Are you going to stop traveling? For me,

80
00:05:25,996 --> 00:05:28,716
Speaker 1: it wasn't like I have this goal, I'm going to

81
00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:31,756
Speaker 1: do it and then I'm done because travel is a

82
00:05:31,796 --> 00:05:34,996
Speaker 1: part of me, you know, Like now I'm set to

83
00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:36,836
Speaker 1: be on the ground for like two and a half weeks,

84
00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:38,316
Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, I have to book a flight.

85
00:05:38,356 --> 00:05:43,476
Speaker 1: I have to go somewhere. You're getting itchy feet. Yeah. Well, look,

86
00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:45,156
Speaker 1: one of the many things I learned in your book

87
00:05:45,276 --> 00:05:49,476
Speaker 1: is that there's this culture of country counters, which is

88
00:05:50,316 --> 00:05:53,276
Speaker 1: which which are almost they're rarer than astronauts or something.

89
00:05:53,356 --> 00:05:55,236
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about this class

90
00:05:55,236 --> 00:05:59,036
Speaker 1: of people. Yes, there's a group of lunatics from different

91
00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:02,676
Speaker 1: countries around the world. Yeah, so the country counting community

92
00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:06,076
Speaker 1: there might be more than astronauts, but as far as

93
00:06:06,116 --> 00:06:08,796
Speaker 1: people who've been to every country in the world, there's

94
00:06:08,836 --> 00:06:10,956
Speaker 1: less and three hundred some more people have definitely been

95
00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:12,956
Speaker 1: to outer space than have been to every country in

96
00:06:12,996 --> 00:06:17,036
Speaker 1: the world. I stumbled upon this group in twenty seventeen.

97
00:06:17,156 --> 00:06:19,756
Speaker 1: I had already been to sixty countries and I was

98
00:06:19,956 --> 00:06:23,196
Speaker 1: a country counter, but I didn't know there were other

99
00:06:23,236 --> 00:06:27,116
Speaker 1: weirdos like me out there, people who are filling in

100
00:06:27,156 --> 00:06:30,876
Speaker 1: these maps. And it's a really great community because people

101
00:06:30,916 --> 00:06:35,516
Speaker 1: are supportive and share resources. Obviously, some countries are easier

102
00:06:35,556 --> 00:06:39,036
Speaker 1: to navigate than others. So people often share fixers for

103
00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:42,876
Speaker 1: certain countries, you know, and just give tips and advice.

104
00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:45,636
Speaker 1: But you know, I think the important thing is because now,

105
00:06:45,636 --> 00:06:46,956
Speaker 1: of course, a lot of people are like, well, I

106
00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:48,476
Speaker 1: want to go to every country in the world. And

107
00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:52,036
Speaker 1: I always tell people what is your why? You know,

108
00:06:52,236 --> 00:06:54,596
Speaker 1: like do you want to just go to every country

109
00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:57,156
Speaker 1: so that you can say you did it, or do

110
00:06:57,276 --> 00:07:00,996
Speaker 1: you have a real mission behind it? And you know,

111
00:07:01,116 --> 00:07:04,436
Speaker 1: for me, my mission I was driven by my own

112
00:07:04,436 --> 00:07:08,356
Speaker 1: personal curiosity and as media around my journey picked up,

113
00:07:08,436 --> 00:07:10,836
Speaker 1: like most of the people who've been to every country

114
00:07:10,836 --> 00:07:14,836
Speaker 1: in the world are white men, didn't specifically like Northern Europeans,

115
00:07:14,836 --> 00:07:19,276
Speaker 1: so like Germans and Danes and Norwegians. Um, I guess

116
00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:26,236
Speaker 1: it's the Viking thing. I have no idea, right right

117
00:07:26,276 --> 00:07:31,796
Speaker 1: exactly living different types of lifestyles. And so for me,

118
00:07:32,116 --> 00:07:33,876
Speaker 1: I was the first black woman to do it. I

119
00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:36,756
Speaker 1: don't even know if we're at fifty women yet who

120
00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:39,236
Speaker 1: have done it. I don't think fifty women have done

121
00:07:39,236 --> 00:07:41,996
Speaker 1: it yet. So it's a different experience, you know, Like

122
00:07:42,076 --> 00:07:45,076
Speaker 1: dealing with immigration was not always easy. If I was

123
00:07:45,196 --> 00:07:48,636
Speaker 1: using my American passport, sometimes they thought that it was fake.

124
00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:51,156
Speaker 1: If I was using my Ugunan passport, they thought that

125
00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:55,156
Speaker 1: I was going to overstay my visa. So I've been detained,

126
00:07:55,596 --> 00:07:59,876
Speaker 1: you know, harassed by multiple immigrations around the world. But

127
00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:02,636
Speaker 1: I will say, for me, one of the biggest lessons

128
00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:05,436
Speaker 1: I learned is that no matter all of that, most

129
00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:08,036
Speaker 1: people are good. And so for me, like the people

130
00:08:08,076 --> 00:08:12,596
Speaker 1: in the country exist on a different plane than the government, right,

131
00:08:13,036 --> 00:08:15,876
Speaker 1: and I don't conflate the two. So no matter what

132
00:08:15,996 --> 00:08:18,356
Speaker 1: nonsense I deal with at the border, I'm not going

133
00:08:18,396 --> 00:08:20,596
Speaker 1: to put that on the people of that country because

134
00:08:20,596 --> 00:08:23,876
Speaker 1: I'm also like, I don't want people to associate me

135
00:08:23,956 --> 00:08:27,116
Speaker 1: with either of my governments, the US or the Ugandan government,

136
00:08:27,196 --> 00:08:31,636
Speaker 1: Like I like to be looked at as an independent person. Yeah, yeah,

137
00:08:31,676 --> 00:08:34,036
Speaker 1: I mean that's still a graceful way to look at it. Well,

138
00:08:34,036 --> 00:08:35,636
Speaker 1: you said a lot there, and I want to like

139
00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:37,716
Speaker 1: unpack a little bit of it. You write in your

140
00:08:37,756 --> 00:08:41,236
Speaker 1: book about how you are perceived as African instead of

141
00:08:41,756 --> 00:08:45,476
Speaker 1: Black American, and I wondered if you could talk about

142
00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:48,756
Speaker 1: how that affects your experience traveling versus maybe some of

143
00:08:48,756 --> 00:08:53,076
Speaker 1: your friends. Yeah, for sure, you know, blackness is not

144
00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:58,116
Speaker 1: a monolith. And those blue American passports, as powerful as

145
00:08:58,116 --> 00:09:01,316
Speaker 1: they are, it doesn't work the same for everyone. The

146
00:09:01,596 --> 00:09:04,916
Speaker 1: world is decidedly anti African. I mean, we can look

147
00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:08,036
Speaker 1: at it from the refugee crisis in Europe a few

148
00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:11,476
Speaker 1: years ago to how they responded to Ukrainian refugees, right, Like,

149
00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:15,596
Speaker 1: that's a very clear difference that we can acknowledge. And

150
00:09:15,716 --> 00:09:18,876
Speaker 1: just the way that Africans are treated, not only in

151
00:09:18,956 --> 00:09:22,996
Speaker 1: terms of economics and bilateral association between governments, but just

152
00:09:23,076 --> 00:09:25,676
Speaker 1: in terms of television, all of the things. Right, And

153
00:09:25,716 --> 00:09:30,876
Speaker 1: so for me, I recognize clearly how I'm treated as

154
00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:34,516
Speaker 1: an African versus a Black American because I travel with

155
00:09:34,556 --> 00:09:37,156
Speaker 1: my black American friends and so you know, they'll go

156
00:09:37,196 --> 00:09:40,596
Speaker 1: through immigration and they're gone, and then I'm stuck and

157
00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:43,156
Speaker 1: I'm being detained, and I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait,

158
00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:45,556
Speaker 1: we just came back from the same place. We both

159
00:09:45,596 --> 00:09:49,036
Speaker 1: have American passports. Why am I being detained? And it's

160
00:09:49,076 --> 00:09:52,916
Speaker 1: this idea that Number one, I guess Africans can't be American,

161
00:09:52,956 --> 00:09:55,876
Speaker 1: which is weird because anybody can be American. That's kind

162
00:09:55,916 --> 00:09:59,516
Speaker 1: of our thing. And then you know, when I'm using

163
00:09:59,516 --> 00:10:03,596
Speaker 1: my Ugnan passport, is this assumption that somehow our countries

164
00:10:03,636 --> 00:10:07,716
Speaker 1: are so terrible that no one with a Ugunan passport

165
00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:10,956
Speaker 1: or any African passport can just go on holiday somewhere

166
00:10:11,356 --> 00:10:14,836
Speaker 1: and then go back home. Right. Like, there's that idea

167
00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:17,156
Speaker 1: that if they're crossing a border, they have to want

168
00:10:17,196 --> 00:10:20,676
Speaker 1: to live in our countries, and it's like, actually, truth

169
00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:23,956
Speaker 1: be told, there's a lot of African countries I'd rather

170
00:10:23,996 --> 00:10:26,476
Speaker 1: live in than you know, the US, or a lot

171
00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:28,796
Speaker 1: of European countries for sure. I mean, I'm thinking of

172
00:10:28,796 --> 00:10:30,836
Speaker 1: the picture you have in your book of the sunset

173
00:10:30,836 --> 00:10:33,996
Speaker 1: in Uganda right over the lake, and like that alone

174
00:10:34,116 --> 00:10:38,196
Speaker 1: is would draw one back. You also write about how

175
00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:42,316
Speaker 1: the scariest country you visited is America, Like quite literally,

176
00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:46,196
Speaker 1: the experiences you had here were more searing, it seems. Yeah.

177
00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:49,236
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the first time I saw a gun,

178
00:10:49,476 --> 00:10:51,956
Speaker 1: I was looking at a point blank range and on

179
00:10:51,956 --> 00:10:54,716
Speaker 1: the other side of it was Miami PD because they

180
00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:57,996
Speaker 1: thought I was breaking into my friend's house. I mean,

181
00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:01,356
Speaker 1: I can remember coming back from a work trip to

182
00:11:01,396 --> 00:11:05,276
Speaker 1: Ethiopia and DC I was at dullest, got through immigration,

183
00:11:05,356 --> 00:11:08,316
Speaker 1: went to customs and they asked for my passport and

184
00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:11,796
Speaker 1: then asked me for another form of ID, and I'm like, what,

185
00:11:12,556 --> 00:11:15,636
Speaker 1: my United States passport is not good enough to get

186
00:11:15,676 --> 00:11:19,956
Speaker 1: me into the United States? You know, like that still

187
00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:23,796
Speaker 1: is absolutely one of the most absurd things that happened.

188
00:11:23,876 --> 00:11:27,596
Speaker 1: But I think just generally, the anxiety that I have

189
00:11:27,836 --> 00:11:31,876
Speaker 1: when I'm in the US is unlike being anywhere else,

190
00:11:31,916 --> 00:11:34,316
Speaker 1: whether it's landing and not knowing if I'm going to

191
00:11:34,396 --> 00:11:39,556
Speaker 1: be harassed at immigration or just fear of like knowing

192
00:11:39,596 --> 00:11:41,996
Speaker 1: that there's so many guns in rotation. I mean, and

193
00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:46,516
Speaker 1: it's so often now we barely blink at mass shootings anymore. Yeah,

194
00:11:46,516 --> 00:11:48,956
Speaker 1: you know, like I just can't wrap my mind around it.

195
00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:50,556
Speaker 1: You know, at one point in your book, you quote

196
00:11:50,556 --> 00:11:54,916
Speaker 1: Malcolm X and you quote American propaganda is designed to

197
00:11:54,956 --> 00:11:56,836
Speaker 1: make us think that no matter how much hell we

198
00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:59,676
Speaker 1: catch here, we're still better off in America than we'd

199
00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:02,876
Speaker 1: be anywhere else. And the WII there is he's talking

200
00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:05,436
Speaker 1: about black Americans. I feel like the we now as

201
00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:11,236
Speaker 1: all of us though, But yes, definitely. You know a

202
00:12:11,276 --> 00:12:14,796
Speaker 1: lot of people will semi messages and say which countries

203
00:12:14,796 --> 00:12:18,036
Speaker 1: are safe for black people to travel to. I know

204
00:12:18,076 --> 00:12:20,316
Speaker 1: where it comes from, but I hate it because there's

205
00:12:20,356 --> 00:12:23,676
Speaker 1: this lack of freedom, that people feel like this idea

206
00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:27,836
Speaker 1: that their blackness is such a weight that they can't

207
00:12:27,876 --> 00:12:31,396
Speaker 1: travel the world freely. And so part of it, not

208
00:12:31,436 --> 00:12:33,356
Speaker 1: only with the book and the imagery in the book,

209
00:12:33,396 --> 00:12:37,076
Speaker 1: but just my Instagram and everything I do is showing

210
00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:40,596
Speaker 1: me in all of these places. Because have I had

211
00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:44,436
Speaker 1: some bad travel experiences, yeah, but very very few compared

212
00:12:44,476 --> 00:12:47,676
Speaker 1: to how much I travel, Very very few negative experiences,

213
00:12:48,196 --> 00:12:51,556
Speaker 1: And like, I'm unmistakably black, you know, and I go

214
00:12:51,596 --> 00:12:54,476
Speaker 1: in places and I've been welcomed, and I visit rural

215
00:12:54,516 --> 00:12:58,396
Speaker 1: parts of like Kyrgyzstan. I remember being in rural Kyrgyzstan

216
00:12:58,636 --> 00:13:01,196
Speaker 1: and I was walking across the street to get a

217
00:13:01,276 --> 00:13:04,196
Speaker 1: SIM card and cars were stopping and staring. I was like, oh, yeah,

218
00:13:04,236 --> 00:13:06,516
Speaker 1: I forgot I'm black, you know, because I just wasn't

219
00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:10,676
Speaker 1: thinking about it, you know, And it was hilarious. But

220
00:13:10,836 --> 00:13:14,356
Speaker 1: I really hope that not only for black people but

221
00:13:14,396 --> 00:13:18,596
Speaker 1: also women traveling solo. I hope that people see my

222
00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:22,636
Speaker 1: journey and gives them a sense of freedom, you know.

223
00:13:22,756 --> 00:13:25,236
Speaker 1: And I know that has been the outcome because I

224
00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:28,596
Speaker 1: get messages, emails, dms, whatever from people saying I went

225
00:13:28,716 --> 00:13:31,196
Speaker 1: here because of you. I was afraid. My family told

226
00:13:31,196 --> 00:13:33,116
Speaker 1: me to be afraid, but seeing me go, they went.

227
00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:36,116
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that my journey has really released some

228
00:13:36,196 --> 00:13:38,996
Speaker 1: fear for people. It makes me think of that. There's

229
00:13:38,996 --> 00:13:42,076
Speaker 1: a Mark Twain quote which I will misquote and paraphrase,

230
00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:47,396
Speaker 1: but basically how travel is the biggest and adode to prejudice, right.

231
00:13:47,516 --> 00:13:49,676
Speaker 1: It's being there interacting with the people that are really

232
00:13:49,676 --> 00:13:53,596
Speaker 1: just going to break through any kind of preconceptions you have. Absolutely,

233
00:13:53,596 --> 00:13:55,996
Speaker 1: And that's the other big thing I learned from visiting

234
00:13:56,036 --> 00:13:58,396
Speaker 1: every country in the world. We're more similar than we

235
00:13:58,436 --> 00:14:01,556
Speaker 1: are different. So for me, that's why I always say

236
00:14:01,596 --> 00:14:04,196
Speaker 1: the world is our neighborhood. So it's about being a

237
00:14:04,236 --> 00:14:07,876
Speaker 1: good neighbor. Because, first of all, borders are fiction. Borders

238
00:14:07,876 --> 00:14:11,196
Speaker 1: are just geopolitical lines on a map, but they don't

239
00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:14,596
Speaker 1: actually mean anything. We're all sharing this planet together, so

240
00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:19,396
Speaker 1: we have to stop thinking about ourselves as Americans and

241
00:14:19,476 --> 00:14:23,196
Speaker 1: Canadians or Ugundans, whatever it is, because we're all in

242
00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:25,796
Speaker 1: this together, and when this planet blows up on us,

243
00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:28,036
Speaker 1: it's not going to be like, oh, well, you have

244
00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:30,996
Speaker 1: a strong passport, we're gonna save you. No, we're all

245
00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:33,916
Speaker 1: going down. You talk about the you know, the eurocentric

246
00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:38,836
Speaker 1: bucket lists that exists for various reasons, and this book

247
00:14:38,916 --> 00:14:42,116
Speaker 1: is a corrective for that in many ways you want

248
00:14:42,156 --> 00:14:45,236
Speaker 1: to speak to that. I love that it is a corrective, Yeah,

249
00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:49,676
Speaker 1: because I think for too long and still ongoing, the

250
00:14:49,716 --> 00:14:52,836
Speaker 1: powers that be are still mostly white men in terms

251
00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:55,196
Speaker 1: of telling us where to go, what to do. We

252
00:14:55,196 --> 00:14:57,676
Speaker 1: look at Kane Nash Traveler, we look at Traveling Leisure,

253
00:14:57,796 --> 00:15:01,876
Speaker 1: even my publisher, National Geographic. There's not that much diversity

254
00:15:01,916 --> 00:15:05,396
Speaker 1: of those telling us this is what should be on

255
00:15:05,476 --> 00:15:09,116
Speaker 1: your bucket list. A lot of the people writing haven't

256
00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:11,876
Speaker 1: been to the continent. Because to me, if you go

257
00:15:11,956 --> 00:15:19,996
Speaker 1: to a place like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Ghana, Senegal, South Africa, Botswana, Namibia,

258
00:15:20,276 --> 00:15:23,916
Speaker 1: these are amazing countries where I have always felt one

259
00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:29,996
Speaker 1: hundred percent safe, they have great tourism infrastructure, and in

260
00:15:30,036 --> 00:15:34,476
Speaker 1: some cases they're relatively affordable to visit. So to me,

261
00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:37,476
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I mean, I look at the New

262
00:15:37,556 --> 00:15:40,556
Speaker 1: York Times fifty two places to visit. I look at

263
00:15:40,596 --> 00:15:42,996
Speaker 1: all of these lists every year and I always roll

264
00:15:43,116 --> 00:15:47,196
Speaker 1: my eyes because I'm just like, Yeah, Vermont is amazing,

265
00:15:47,436 --> 00:15:50,516
Speaker 1: but what about Madagascar? You know what I mean. For me,

266
00:15:50,716 --> 00:15:54,756
Speaker 1: I'm just like, come on, y'all, so you know, for

267
00:15:54,796 --> 00:15:57,596
Speaker 1: those listening, I'm here to help you make your twenty

268
00:15:57,636 --> 00:16:00,956
Speaker 1: twenty four lists. Let me know if you need my help.

269
00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:04,036
Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of why among the reasons I

270
00:16:04,036 --> 00:16:06,756
Speaker 1: wanted to have you on is you know, I'm talking

271
00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:09,636
Speaker 1: with travel writers and travel thinkers, and when you make

272
00:16:09,676 --> 00:16:12,396
Speaker 1: that list it is embarrassing. And I was going to

273
00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:14,916
Speaker 1: ask you, and maybe this is too reductive, but like,

274
00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:18,196
Speaker 1: what do you you know? Like why do you travel?

275
00:16:18,556 --> 00:16:20,916
Speaker 1: But when part of why I travel, I think is

276
00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:24,876
Speaker 1: collecting wisdom? You know, when why am I like talking

277
00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:26,596
Speaker 1: to all these people? What am I looking for? I

278
00:16:26,636 --> 00:16:29,076
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm looking for, but I know I

279
00:16:29,076 --> 00:16:32,436
Speaker 1: am just trying to find some sort of wisdom about

280
00:16:32,476 --> 00:16:35,956
Speaker 1: the world. What about you? What are you looking for? No,

281
00:16:36,076 --> 00:16:39,796
Speaker 1: I think what's kept it going is I'm so curious.

282
00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:44,676
Speaker 1: I am like a child, and I love asking questions.

283
00:16:44,836 --> 00:16:48,396
Speaker 1: And I love visiting new places more than I like

284
00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:53,876
Speaker 1: visiting old places. You know. I really novelty, Yeah, for sure.

285
00:16:53,876 --> 00:16:58,596
Speaker 1: And I think studying basically my degree was global economic

286
00:16:58,636 --> 00:17:03,316
Speaker 1: and political history, So for me, it's just so interesting

287
00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:06,916
Speaker 1: to go to these countries, knowing their political history, knowing

288
00:17:06,956 --> 00:17:10,236
Speaker 1: their economic history. And I'm person who I feel like

289
00:17:10,316 --> 00:17:12,316
Speaker 1: we all have something to teach and we all have

290
00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:14,716
Speaker 1: something to learn. So if you're open, you can learn

291
00:17:14,796 --> 00:17:19,156
Speaker 1: something new every day. I love that. Yeah, well, Jessica,

292
00:17:19,516 --> 00:17:22,076
Speaker 1: I think that we should end it on that great point.

293
00:17:22,196 --> 00:17:25,516
Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for chatting with

294
00:17:25,516 --> 00:17:27,636
Speaker 1: me and for putting this book together and sharing it

295
00:17:27,676 --> 00:17:33,676
Speaker 1: with the world. Jessica Nobongo's book is called The Catch

296
00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:36,516
Speaker 1: Me if you Can, and it is a really great

297
00:17:36,556 --> 00:17:38,996
Speaker 1: place to start if you are looking to fill the

298
00:17:39,036 --> 00:17:42,956
Speaker 1: blind spots in your travel itinerary. And it's not just

299
00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:46,316
Speaker 1: pictures and places. It has lots of neat little information

300
00:17:46,596 --> 00:17:51,156
Speaker 1: like this scary fact. In twenty eighteen, in the USA,

301
00:17:51,436 --> 00:17:56,116
Speaker 1: seven hundred and sixty eight million vacation days went unused.

302
00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:02,636
Speaker 1: Whoa right. So if you need some ideas about where

303
00:18:02,676 --> 00:18:04,636
Speaker 1: you should go, you can check out the book or

304
00:18:05,196 --> 00:18:09,716
Speaker 1: Jessica's Instagram page at Jessica Nobongo. The beauty full images

305
00:18:09,756 --> 00:18:15,916
Speaker 1: on her grid will be certain to influence you. All Right, Well,

306
00:18:15,956 --> 00:18:18,076
Speaker 1: after a quick break, we're going to move from traveling

307
00:18:18,076 --> 00:18:21,316
Speaker 1: for pleasure to traveling for work. And I don't mean

308
00:18:21,356 --> 00:18:23,596
Speaker 1: a two day convention at the Chicago Hyatt. I am

309
00:18:23,596 --> 00:18:26,596
Speaker 1: talking about months and months on the road. Here you

310
00:18:26,636 --> 00:18:29,116
Speaker 1: are on a bus like you're a grown adult, sleeping

311
00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:33,516
Speaker 1: within inches of other adults. It's very intimate and uncomfortable,

312
00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:37,556
Speaker 1: and I've adapted to that by being able to like

313
00:18:37,876 --> 00:18:40,356
Speaker 1: dissociate on some levels when you need to kind of

314
00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:44,996
Speaker 1: ghost walk. Canadian indie pop duo Tegan Sarah stop by

315
00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:47,556
Speaker 1: to talk about the touring life and to answer your

316
00:18:47,556 --> 00:19:10,676
Speaker 1: travel questions. When Not Lost returns welcome back to Not

317
00:19:10,796 --> 00:19:15,116
Speaker 1: Lost Chat. Hey, that almost rhymes welcome back to Not

318
00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:18,516
Speaker 1: Lost Chat. It is now time for the part of

319
00:19:18,516 --> 00:19:21,596
Speaker 1: the podcast where I invite someone more qualified than me

320
00:19:22,116 --> 00:19:25,156
Speaker 1: to help answer your travel questions, and today I invited

321
00:19:25,356 --> 00:19:28,676
Speaker 1: two people to assist me. They're kind of a package deal.

322
00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:32,956
Speaker 1: Tegan and Sarah are an indie pop duo hailing from

323
00:19:32,996 --> 00:19:36,196
Speaker 1: the Great Nation of Canada. And as always, if any

324
00:19:36,316 --> 00:19:40,156
Speaker 1: Canadian immigration authorities happen to be listening, please slide into

325
00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:43,436
Speaker 1: my DMS at b F Newnham so we can start

326
00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:48,116
Speaker 1: building my new life in Montreal. Thank you anyway. Teagan

327
00:19:48,156 --> 00:19:52,316
Speaker 1: and Sarah are identical twins queer icons. They are known

328
00:19:52,356 --> 00:19:55,196
Speaker 1: for their catchy hooks and on stage banter. They also

329
00:19:55,236 --> 00:19:59,476
Speaker 1: became best selling authors after publishing their memoir called High School,

330
00:19:59,956 --> 00:20:02,676
Speaker 1: which is their story of teen angst and their search

331
00:20:02,756 --> 00:20:05,756
Speaker 1: for separate identities. It is now a show on Amazon,

332
00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:09,236
Speaker 1: also called High School. And these super twins all so

333
00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:12,876
Speaker 1: just finished touring for their new album, cry Baby. They've

334
00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:15,756
Speaker 1: been touring as a duo since they were teenagers. Back

335
00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:18,676
Speaker 1: then they got from show to show via Greyhound bus.

336
00:20:19,116 --> 00:20:22,196
Speaker 1: Now when they tour, they have an entire bus to themselves,

337
00:20:23,196 --> 00:20:27,276
Speaker 1: well them their crew, a sort of family members and

338
00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:31,476
Speaker 1: now babies. Oh and a quick note about this interview.

339
00:20:32,276 --> 00:20:35,396
Speaker 1: Tegan and Sarah are twins. They do sometimes sound similar.

340
00:20:35,636 --> 00:20:38,516
Speaker 1: In fact, when I conducted this interview over zoom, every

341
00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:40,756
Speaker 1: once in a while I would discreetly mouse over the

342
00:20:40,796 --> 00:20:43,436
Speaker 1: window so that their respective names would pop up under

343
00:20:43,476 --> 00:20:46,036
Speaker 1: the images and I could remember who is who. I mean,

344
00:20:46,076 --> 00:20:48,436
Speaker 1: there are so many amazing things about touring on a bus.

345
00:20:48,476 --> 00:20:50,276
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that you get to sleep overnight

346
00:20:50,396 --> 00:20:52,236
Speaker 1: is really nice rather than having to drive all day.

347
00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:56,476
Speaker 1: That is Teagan, who plays guitar, keyboards and sings. She's

348
00:20:56,476 --> 00:20:59,196
Speaker 1: also wearing a hot pink hat during our interview I

349
00:20:59,276 --> 00:21:01,636
Speaker 1: can't reveal the name of the star, but we know

350
00:21:01,716 --> 00:21:03,956
Speaker 1: someone who has toured with one of the largest artists

351
00:21:03,956 --> 00:21:07,236
Speaker 1: in the world, and that is Sarah, who also plays guitar,

352
00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:10,196
Speaker 1: keys and sings. And it's also wearing a hot pink

353
00:21:10,236 --> 00:21:13,516
Speaker 1: hat during our interview. Not confusing at all. This is

354
00:21:13,556 --> 00:21:16,356
Speaker 1: like private jets, like the whole thing. And he recently

355
00:21:16,396 --> 00:21:18,836
Speaker 1: was describing to me a scenario in which this person

356
00:21:19,596 --> 00:21:22,716
Speaker 1: how they deal with a show and sleeping and getting

357
00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:26,236
Speaker 1: to the next show, like the suitcases and the family

358
00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:28,716
Speaker 1: and the entourage and everything is just sounded like kyos

359
00:21:28,716 --> 00:21:31,236
Speaker 1: and it's like not RESTful. And this person, you know,

360
00:21:31,436 --> 00:21:33,436
Speaker 1: has like a thing over their eyes, you know, like

361
00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:35,196
Speaker 1: they have all the sleep of koutrement and like trying

362
00:21:35,196 --> 00:21:36,836
Speaker 1: to help them get to sleep. But I thought to myself,

363
00:21:36,916 --> 00:21:39,396
Speaker 1: my god, this is like objectively one of the biggest

364
00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:42,036
Speaker 1: stars in the world, And if that is how that

365
00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:45,796
Speaker 1: star is getting quote unquote rest, then the rest of

366
00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:48,036
Speaker 1: us are doomed. Like, don't ever think there's a level

367
00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:49,876
Speaker 1: of touring that you're going to achieve as like an

368
00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:52,236
Speaker 1: indie rock band where you're not going to feel kind

369
00:21:52,236 --> 00:21:56,956
Speaker 1: of like deeply like cellularly exhausted. Yeah, I think it's hard.

370
00:21:57,036 --> 00:22:00,796
Speaker 1: I have friends who have done pretty well in music,

371
00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:03,356
Speaker 1: and at first when they would complain about touring, would

372
00:22:03,516 --> 00:22:04,876
Speaker 1: you would be a little bit when you're in your

373
00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:08,396
Speaker 1: twenties or third you're like, sorry about your problems, but yeah,

374
00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:11,196
Speaker 1: you're up in to Australia and every cool person came

375
00:22:11,196 --> 00:22:14,356
Speaker 1: out to see you and you were single. But it

376
00:22:14,396 --> 00:22:16,956
Speaker 1: seems like the pain is real. It's real. I think

377
00:22:16,956 --> 00:22:19,516
Speaker 1: it's like a total not to get like too dark

378
00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:24,076
Speaker 1: about our wonderful great aunt Helen, who's ninety two this year. Yeah,

379
00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:27,556
Speaker 1: she's amazing. But I I was teasing her because she

380
00:22:27,556 --> 00:22:29,596
Speaker 1: doesn't really travel anywhere, and she said, I don't like

381
00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:31,636
Speaker 1: to travel because you go somewhere, you eat what other

382
00:22:31,676 --> 00:22:34,716
Speaker 1: people want, and then you sleep in someone else's bed,

383
00:22:34,756 --> 00:22:40,116
Speaker 1: on someone else's sheets, and then you are you're stopped up.

384
00:22:40,156 --> 00:22:41,876
Speaker 1: But she used some sort of old and timey word,

385
00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:44,356
Speaker 1: but she means like constipated. And then you go home

386
00:22:44,356 --> 00:22:46,196
Speaker 1: and you're just relieved to get back into your house,

387
00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:48,116
Speaker 1: your sheets, eat the food, you like a poop again.

388
00:22:48,156 --> 00:22:50,756
Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, well, great aunt Helen, you

389
00:22:50,916 --> 00:22:53,996
Speaker 1: kind of just nailed the worst part of travel yeah,

390
00:22:54,036 --> 00:22:57,116
Speaker 1: it's glamorous up to a point, but also to way

391
00:22:57,116 --> 00:22:58,876
Speaker 1: your aunt was saying, it also makes you appreciate your

392
00:22:58,876 --> 00:23:01,476
Speaker 1: home to a certain extent, Like I feel like, oh, yeah, absolutely,

393
00:23:01,516 --> 00:23:04,476
Speaker 1: I like New York more after spending a year and

394
00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:07,316
Speaker 1: a half traveling from Montreal to Mexico City doing things.

395
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:10,156
Speaker 1: I like my apartment more. I appreciate my friends more

396
00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:11,676
Speaker 1: than I did when I was here and I was

397
00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:15,756
Speaker 1: just chafing for something else. I think there's a calibration required. Yeah,

398
00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:18,436
Speaker 1: oh my god. I mean I used to feel completely

399
00:23:18,476 --> 00:23:20,636
Speaker 1: the opposite to the way that I feel now in

400
00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:23,516
Speaker 1: my twenties, and those gears were so fun, you know.

401
00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:25,236
Speaker 1: I mean I had an apartment, but like did I

402
00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:27,876
Speaker 1: you know, I was I'd finish a tour and I'd

403
00:23:27,876 --> 00:23:30,156
Speaker 1: be like, I don't know, I'll just stay in Portland

404
00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:31,716
Speaker 1: for a week and you know, I'll like take a

405
00:23:31,756 --> 00:23:34,276
Speaker 1: bath and order room service, and like I kind of

406
00:23:34,316 --> 00:23:36,636
Speaker 1: lived the dream of like, oh, I was single, I

407
00:23:36,716 --> 00:23:39,476
Speaker 1: was having like a really fun time. But my draw

408
00:23:39,596 --> 00:23:42,716
Speaker 1: to home and the sort of like nesting thing didn't

409
00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:45,116
Speaker 1: really kick in for me until my mid thirties. I

410
00:23:45,156 --> 00:23:47,676
Speaker 1: think that correlated with, you know the fact that I

411
00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:50,876
Speaker 1: had more disposable income. I got more interested in like

412
00:23:50,996 --> 00:23:53,996
Speaker 1: building a home and having nice things, and you know,

413
00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:57,596
Speaker 1: I had like a weekly Bachelor watching like drunk Fest

414
00:23:57,676 --> 00:23:59,716
Speaker 1: every week in LA when I lived there, and like,

415
00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:01,196
Speaker 1: you know, like I just started to feel like, oh,

416
00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:04,156
Speaker 1: like I really I really miss my community and I

417
00:24:04,196 --> 00:24:07,356
Speaker 1: really miss the comfort of what I'm building in my environment.

418
00:24:07,476 --> 00:24:10,556
Speaker 1: And now it's really hard to like this last tour,

419
00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:13,236
Speaker 1: it was just hard. I have like a really nice

420
00:24:13,276 --> 00:24:15,556
Speaker 1: life at home, and you know, I just had a kid,

421
00:24:15,676 --> 00:24:17,996
Speaker 1: and like, you know, it's like, you know, I'm I'm

422
00:24:18,036 --> 00:24:20,636
Speaker 1: like really settled. Did you you brought your kid with

423
00:24:20,676 --> 00:24:25,956
Speaker 1: you on tour? Yeah, yeah, I did. I know, he

424
00:24:25,996 --> 00:24:28,476
Speaker 1: did not get constipated. He did not get constipated on tour.

425
00:24:28,636 --> 00:24:31,636
Speaker 1: Um he's almost six months, so he was just about

426
00:24:31,676 --> 00:24:35,036
Speaker 1: to be five months. And uh, he did great. And

427
00:24:35,116 --> 00:24:37,396
Speaker 1: my partner Stacy came out as well, and we brought

428
00:24:37,436 --> 00:24:41,316
Speaker 1: my mom and she helped out. And it was profoundly destabilizing.

429
00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:44,476
Speaker 1: I mean, I've developed a lot of adaptations to make

430
00:24:44,676 --> 00:24:47,996
Speaker 1: living on the road and touring and being nomadic work.

431
00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:49,876
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the things that he can

432
00:24:49,916 --> 00:24:52,196
Speaker 1: mentioned at the top about you know, here you are

433
00:24:52,196 --> 00:24:55,156
Speaker 1: on a bus like you're a grown adult sleeping within

434
00:24:55,316 --> 00:25:00,316
Speaker 1: inches of other adults. It's very intimate and uncomfortable. And

435
00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:04,196
Speaker 1: I've adapted to that by being able to like dissociate

436
00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:06,396
Speaker 1: on some levels when you need to kind of ghost

437
00:25:06,396 --> 00:25:08,876
Speaker 1: walk I call it, like through some of the touring,

438
00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:10,916
Speaker 1: so that you can feel comfortable and you know there's

439
00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:13,876
Speaker 1: some self preservation there. Yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't do

440
00:25:13,916 --> 00:25:16,436
Speaker 1: that with my wife, mother, and son on tour. I

441
00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:18,636
Speaker 1: felt like I had to be present twenty four hours

442
00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:20,316
Speaker 1: a day, and if I wasn't present, then it just

443
00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:23,476
Speaker 1: felt really uncomfortable. My pitch to my partner Stacy the

444
00:25:23,516 --> 00:25:25,636
Speaker 1: whole time was I was like, we're building a story

445
00:25:25,756 --> 00:25:27,956
Speaker 1: for Sid, you know, like we're gonna tell him about

446
00:25:27,996 --> 00:25:30,236
Speaker 1: his first carousel ride in Utah, and we're going to

447
00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:33,436
Speaker 1: tell him about his first swim in Pennsylvania, and you know,

448
00:25:33,476 --> 00:25:35,076
Speaker 1: and there was a few times where she was like, yeah,

449
00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:36,796
Speaker 1: I'm not a storyteller. Shut up, you know, like she

450
00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:38,676
Speaker 1: was kind of like, this is exhausting. Stop trying to

451
00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:40,956
Speaker 1: make it a positive thing. All right, I'm gonna ask

452
00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:43,196
Speaker 1: some of these travel questions. I lost the first one

453
00:25:43,196 --> 00:25:44,476
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, but I'm going to try

454
00:25:44,516 --> 00:25:46,116
Speaker 1: to call it back from memory. It was a very

455
00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:49,996
Speaker 1: simple one, but it was essentially my colleague Emily was

456
00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:53,116
Speaker 1: based on Washington, DC, and she was asking, if you're

457
00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:56,436
Speaker 1: on a road trip with a partner, what if any

458
00:25:56,476 --> 00:26:02,116
Speaker 1: responsibilities does the non driving partner have. I remember her

459
00:26:02,156 --> 00:26:04,116
Speaker 1: signing it off. You may or may not be saving

460
00:26:04,116 --> 00:26:08,876
Speaker 1: a relationship here, and I think they include like navigation, music,

461
00:26:08,916 --> 00:26:12,636
Speaker 1: you know, what if any responsibilities? Yeah, I mean, speaking

462
00:26:12,676 --> 00:26:14,836
Speaker 1: just specifically about the relationship I've been in for the

463
00:26:14,876 --> 00:26:19,236
Speaker 1: last twelve years. There is a delicate balance when one

464
00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:22,916
Speaker 1: says that the non driving person is in charge of navigation.

465
00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:26,556
Speaker 1: I think that that's a trick. I don't necessarily think

466
00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:29,396
Speaker 1: that you're in charge, and I also don't think you're

467
00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:31,876
Speaker 1: not in charge. So I think it's a very dangerous

468
00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:35,476
Speaker 1: place to be emotionally. There's tension there, like are you

469
00:26:35,516 --> 00:26:38,196
Speaker 1: actually the person staring at the navigation system and saying,

470
00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:40,356
Speaker 1: you know, two hundred yards and it's on your right

471
00:26:40,356 --> 00:26:41,916
Speaker 1: you want to move over now? Like is it that

472
00:26:42,036 --> 00:26:44,636
Speaker 1: layer or is it just more of like a you know,

473
00:26:44,716 --> 00:26:47,036
Speaker 1: making sure that the volume of the music doesn't like

474
00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:50,076
Speaker 1: overpower the navigation voice. You know, like, but it is

475
00:26:50,116 --> 00:26:52,396
Speaker 1: important to stay on your toes. You are not in

476
00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:56,156
Speaker 1: control or not not in control, you're somewhere in between.

477
00:26:56,236 --> 00:26:58,276
Speaker 1: I think that's well said. You can do anything to

478
00:26:58,276 --> 00:27:00,636
Speaker 1: add to that. As a lifetime passenger, my biggest piece

479
00:27:00,676 --> 00:27:03,596
Speaker 1: of advice to other lifetime passengers is just to be

480
00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:09,716
Speaker 1: very patient and helpful and it just just know that

481
00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:11,596
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what the driver tells you. They are

482
00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:14,316
Speaker 1: resentful that you're not driving. Sounds like we're both having

483
00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:18,276
Speaker 1: a lot of fun in our relationships in cars. Usually

484
00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:21,476
Speaker 1: I am the driver, but I think you guys both

485
00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:24,836
Speaker 1: struck him on something. It's like you are relinquishing control. Yeah,

486
00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:28,036
Speaker 1: and so the driver ultimately has the power, which is

487
00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:30,996
Speaker 1: why they shouldn't be a jerk, because if you drive recklessly,

488
00:27:30,996 --> 00:27:34,676
Speaker 1: it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like you could kill us. Yes, okay,

489
00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:37,596
Speaker 1: two more questions. This is a short one comes from

490
00:27:37,596 --> 00:27:42,916
Speaker 1: Sean from Saratoga Springs, and Sean asks guided tours could

491
00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:51,116
Speaker 1: be cool or boomer culture. So we've been guided tours

492
00:27:51,396 --> 00:27:55,116
Speaker 1: in a bunch of places. I love guided tours. If

493
00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:58,556
Speaker 1: there's alcohol, yeah, probably nowhere more than New Orleans. We

494
00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:01,196
Speaker 1: find a new one every time, like you know, French Quarter,

495
00:28:01,516 --> 00:28:04,636
Speaker 1: Garden District, the Haunted Tour, We've done it all, and yeah,

496
00:28:04,676 --> 00:28:07,836
Speaker 1: it's it's particularly exciting when there's stops at bars. My

497
00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:09,636
Speaker 1: partner and I did one in London. We did the

498
00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:12,876
Speaker 1: Ripper Drack, the Ripper Tour or whatever. It was harrowing.

499
00:28:13,356 --> 00:28:16,116
Speaker 1: You start at a bar and then there are multiple

500
00:28:16,116 --> 00:28:18,476
Speaker 1: stops at bars, but then when they finish, like you're

501
00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:20,196
Speaker 1: in a back alley and then they just are like

502
00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:23,156
Speaker 1: okay bye, and the like guide person just leaves and

503
00:28:23,276 --> 00:28:27,316
Speaker 1: everyone just scatters like rats. And Sophie and I were

504
00:28:27,356 --> 00:28:30,956
Speaker 1: just like on this cobblestone dark lane, just heard about

505
00:28:30,956 --> 00:28:32,956
Speaker 1: this horrible thing that happened and we had no idea

506
00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:35,596
Speaker 1: where we were. I was like, this is awful. It's terrible,

507
00:28:35,636 --> 00:28:36,836
Speaker 1: but I love it. I would do it again in

508
00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:39,956
Speaker 1: a heartbeat. Love them. And oh, I want to just

509
00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:42,236
Speaker 1: address the boomer thing. There were so many young people

510
00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:44,796
Speaker 1: on the tour. Well, well that's why you want ones.

511
00:28:44,876 --> 00:28:46,596
Speaker 1: That's why you want ones with alcohol, even if you

512
00:28:46,596 --> 00:28:47,876
Speaker 1: don't drek it just it. I feel like it just

513
00:28:47,916 --> 00:28:50,876
Speaker 1: attracts like a more fun demographic. Also, unless you're doing

514
00:28:50,916 --> 00:28:53,596
Speaker 1: something like Graceland or something like you know you're doing

515
00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:56,156
Speaker 1: like a home tour or something. Those are kind of fun.

516
00:28:56,436 --> 00:28:59,236
Speaker 1: But in general, and this is just my own personal thing,

517
00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:02,236
Speaker 1: I don't like guided tours because I think as a

518
00:29:02,276 --> 00:29:05,876
Speaker 1: performer and just as like a kind of egotistical person,

519
00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:08,836
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm supposed to engage with the guide

520
00:29:09,116 --> 00:29:10,636
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh God, does everyone think I'm like

521
00:29:10,636 --> 00:29:13,356
Speaker 1: the hugest brown noser? And then if I don't connect

522
00:29:13,356 --> 00:29:15,436
Speaker 1: with the guide, I'm like, how did that guide not

523
00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:19,316
Speaker 1: see how special I am? And how how next level

524
00:29:19,396 --> 00:29:21,796
Speaker 1: this experience could have been for everyone. Yes, I don't

525
00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:23,956
Speaker 1: like guided tours. I don't like them. It gives you

526
00:29:23,996 --> 00:29:25,996
Speaker 1: it sounds like it stresses you out. It stresses me out.

527
00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:27,796
Speaker 1: It gives me a lot of anxiety. Well there you go.

528
00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:29,356
Speaker 1: I think the fact that just the fact that you

529
00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:31,876
Speaker 1: guys have gone on tours, I think answered Sean's question like,

530
00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:35,556
Speaker 1: no shame in that game, no shame. Um, all right,

531
00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:37,796
Speaker 1: this is a question from Latal in New Jersey and

532
00:29:37,876 --> 00:29:42,076
Speaker 1: latal rights as fellow queer folks. I'm curious if they

533
00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:46,236
Speaker 1: you guys share my version to B and B's where

534
00:29:46,276 --> 00:29:52,676
Speaker 1: I feel, Oh my god, Yes, way would be. It

535
00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:57,276
Speaker 1: would be too conspicuous sitting around a breakfast table with strangers. Yeah. Yeah,

536
00:29:57,316 --> 00:29:58,956
Speaker 1: I want to jump in and say, because I've stayed

537
00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:00,596
Speaker 1: at a bunch of B andb's. Being on the West

538
00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:02,476
Speaker 1: Coast the last twenty some years, I did a lot

539
00:30:02,516 --> 00:30:05,076
Speaker 1: of travel on the Southern Gulf Islands and there are

540
00:30:05,076 --> 00:30:07,876
Speaker 1: a lot of B and B's, and as a twenty

541
00:30:07,996 --> 00:30:11,436
Speaker 1: something with my very queer looking girlfriend, I used to

542
00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:13,876
Speaker 1: feel so uncomfortable. But there were like some of these

543
00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:16,156
Speaker 1: places there's no hotels or in some cases away couldn't

544
00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:21,036
Speaker 1: afford hotels, and I hated it. I felt very, very uncomfortable.

545
00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:22,796
Speaker 1: You can quote me on this. I don't like B

546
00:30:22,876 --> 00:30:25,796
Speaker 1: and B's, I don't like Airbnb's, I don't like any

547
00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:27,596
Speaker 1: I want to be in a hotel where I want

548
00:30:27,596 --> 00:30:30,476
Speaker 1: to be in my house, but I would. I do

549
00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:33,916
Speaker 1: think that there's something this again, this show's really blowing

550
00:30:33,916 --> 00:30:35,676
Speaker 1: my mind because I feel like I'm like leaving with

551
00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:38,676
Speaker 1: two like brand new thoughts in my brain. But I

552
00:30:38,716 --> 00:30:42,316
Speaker 1: think that queer people and B and B's do not mix,

553
00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:44,996
Speaker 1: and still even in this time in day and age,

554
00:30:45,036 --> 00:30:46,956
Speaker 1: and I don't I don't quite understand what it's about,

555
00:30:46,996 --> 00:30:49,436
Speaker 1: except that there's a real visceral reaction for me about

556
00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:53,436
Speaker 1: staying in a place that makes me feel very vulnerable

557
00:30:53,476 --> 00:30:55,916
Speaker 1: and exposed. I mean more so than Tigan. I really

558
00:30:56,036 --> 00:30:59,116
Speaker 1: dealt with a lot of internalized homophobia and fear when

559
00:30:59,156 --> 00:31:01,796
Speaker 1: I was younger, and the few B and B experiences

560
00:31:01,876 --> 00:31:03,996
Speaker 1: I had actually a lot of it was really like

561
00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:06,716
Speaker 1: a lot of it hinged on my discomfort that people

562
00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:10,076
Speaker 1: would know, like I'm queer, and are we like, are

563
00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:12,196
Speaker 1: we staying in a house with people that that would

564
00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,076
Speaker 1: be hostile to that? Well, what if it's different, What

565
00:31:15,156 --> 00:31:17,516
Speaker 1: if it's a queer B and B? That might be worse.

566
00:31:18,636 --> 00:31:20,436
Speaker 1: I mean it might be worse because then it feels

567
00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:22,596
Speaker 1: like it's a theme park or something like. It's like,

568
00:31:23,916 --> 00:31:25,956
Speaker 1: we have queer members of my family. My parents are

569
00:31:26,156 --> 00:31:28,796
Speaker 1: much older, but some of their favorite people are these

570
00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:32,436
Speaker 1: two queer B and B owners in Florida. They stay

571
00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:36,636
Speaker 1: with like this couple, this married couple, and my mother

572
00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:39,316
Speaker 1: loves them. I think that's the most exposure she's been

573
00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:41,436
Speaker 1: with a married gay couple. Interesting is because they go

574
00:31:41,436 --> 00:31:44,756
Speaker 1: there each winter and they stay with them. You know

575
00:31:44,796 --> 00:31:46,916
Speaker 1: what our problem is, Brendan, I think I figured it

576
00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:49,596
Speaker 1: out is that we don't even like staying with people

577
00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:52,916
Speaker 1: we know, Like when we go to cities with friends

578
00:31:52,916 --> 00:31:55,196
Speaker 1: who have space for us and offer us space, we

579
00:31:55,236 --> 00:31:57,636
Speaker 1: always stay at hotels. And I wonder if a lifetime

580
00:31:57,676 --> 00:31:59,756
Speaker 1: of being nomadic and traveling is that we just we

581
00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:03,236
Speaker 1: crave space of our own. And this has probably got

582
00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:06,436
Speaker 1: less to do with B and b's and maybe even queerness,

583
00:32:06,556 --> 00:32:09,636
Speaker 1: although those are contributing factors to this discomfort, is that

584
00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:12,356
Speaker 1: we just don't like sharing space. It's like indoor camping,

585
00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:15,156
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, thank you, thank you so much.

586
00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:20,796
Speaker 1: I really genuinely enjoyed this conversation and in your in

587
00:32:20,836 --> 00:32:23,516
Speaker 1: your nesting and then your touring, and I look forward

588
00:32:23,516 --> 00:32:26,156
Speaker 1: to running into you all again. This was a delight,

589
00:32:26,316 --> 00:32:37,076
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, show your weekend, Thank you so so,

590
00:32:41,276 --> 00:32:44,916
Speaker 1: and that everyone was Tegan and Sarah. You can check

591
00:32:44,956 --> 00:32:47,836
Speaker 1: out their new album cry Baby and watch their show

592
00:32:47,956 --> 00:32:51,796
Speaker 1: High School, which is on Amazon. Full disclosure that conversation

593
00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:54,356
Speaker 1: went on for over an hour. I found them so

594
00:32:54,436 --> 00:32:57,156
Speaker 1: easy to talk to. I want to become their best friend.

595
00:32:57,316 --> 00:32:59,756
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll become one of their fellow Canadians at some

596
00:32:59,836 --> 00:33:03,836
Speaker 1: point um and if there's interest, maybe I'll share it

597
00:33:03,836 --> 00:33:09,636
Speaker 1: on this feed later on in the year. So that's

598
00:33:09,676 --> 00:33:11,756
Speaker 1: it for this edition of Not Lost Chat. If you

599
00:33:11,796 --> 00:33:14,916
Speaker 1: have travel questions that you want answered in a future episode,

600
00:33:15,516 --> 00:33:17,876
Speaker 1: you can email them to me at not Lost at

601
00:33:17,876 --> 00:33:21,316
Speaker 1: Pushkin dot Fm or ping me at b F Newnham

602
00:33:21,356 --> 00:33:24,956
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Please send them along. Not Lost Chat would

603
00:33:24,996 --> 00:33:28,116
Speaker 1: not have been made without producer Jordan Bailey, who caught

604
00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:31,516
Speaker 1: a red eye from Northern California to North Carolina to

605
00:33:31,556 --> 00:33:33,596
Speaker 1: be able to set up that Teagan at Sarah interview.

606
00:33:33,716 --> 00:33:36,476
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jordan. This show is written and hosted by

607
00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:40,156
Speaker 1: me Brendan Francis Nunham, The furthest I travel this week

608
00:33:40,436 --> 00:33:43,356
Speaker 1: was the corner of Bedford Metropolitan to get a COVID test.

609
00:33:43,956 --> 00:33:47,676
Speaker 1: Came back negative for COVID but positive for RSV, so

610
00:33:47,756 --> 00:33:51,196
Speaker 1: you know, it all evens out. As usual, we receive

611
00:33:51,316 --> 00:33:54,956
Speaker 1: top notch booking assistance from Laura Morgan. This episode was

612
00:33:55,076 --> 00:33:58,236
Speaker 1: edited by the wonderful Julia Barton with assistance from our

613
00:33:58,316 --> 00:34:02,156
Speaker 1: cools of Cucumber managing producer Jacob Smith and our mix

614
00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:06,316
Speaker 1: engineer is the unflappable Sarah brugere Not Lost as a

615
00:34:06,356 --> 00:34:10,516
Speaker 1: co production of Pushkin Industry's Topic Studio and iHeartMedia. It

616
00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:13,756
Speaker 1: was developed at Topic Studios. And yes, there are some

617
00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:17,676
Speaker 1: executive producers on this show, including me, Brendan Francis Newnham,

618
00:34:17,956 --> 00:34:22,236
Speaker 1: Christy Kressman, Maria Suckerman, Lisa line Gang and Lata Mulad.

619
00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:25,916
Speaker 1: If you dig what you here, please tell a friend,

620
00:34:26,076 --> 00:34:29,196
Speaker 1: make a comment at Apple Podcasts, spread the word. It's

621
00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:32,636
Speaker 1: really appreciated. And if your inboxes lonely, you can sign

622
00:34:32,676 --> 00:34:36,676
Speaker 1: up for the Pushkin newsletter at Pushkin dot fm Slash

623
00:34:36,956 --> 00:34:41,076
Speaker 1: Newsletter And if you'd like to find more Pushkin podcast

624
00:34:41,356 --> 00:34:44,476
Speaker 1: and there are some great ones. There's Talk Easy, there's

625
00:34:44,916 --> 00:34:47,836
Speaker 1: Story the Week, There's death of an artist. There's so

626
00:34:47,916 --> 00:34:50,356
Speaker 1: much good stuff going on. You can listen and find

627
00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:54,316
Speaker 1: them on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or you know

628
00:34:54,876 --> 00:34:58,836
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcast. That's it for this episode.

629
00:34:59,156 --> 00:35:08,956
Speaker 1: Thanks so much everybody,