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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as

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Speaker 2: always so much for tuning in. Let's hear it from

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Speaker 2: our super producer, mister Max two fans Williams.

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Speaker 3: Max Boss Tweet, Boss Hog Boss. This is a boss.

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Speaker 3: He's a boss, not a a political boss. But you're

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Speaker 3: into politics. You did the research for this episode, didn't you? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 4: And actually, funny enough, my junior year ap US history class,

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Speaker 4: it was a year long class. We were to school

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Speaker 4: where we did like each semester we changed our classes.

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Speaker 4: This was the only year long one did. But we

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Speaker 4: would have these debates like every couple of months where

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Speaker 4: you get a sign aside whether or not you agreed

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Speaker 4: with it, you have to argue it. And I had

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Speaker 4: to argue in uh high school that Boss Tweet was

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Speaker 4: not the only person guilty for Tammany Hall and the tweet.

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Speaker 3: One. And then you were voted most likely to head

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Speaker 3: up a corrupt political machine.

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Speaker 4: I think I was thinking I was voting most likely

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Speaker 4: to end up in prison. And you know what, at

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Speaker 4: thirty two years old, I still haven't made it there.

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Speaker 3: Potato, Patato, my friend Potato Patato, But no, we are

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Speaker 3: in fact talking today about political machines. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I always been thought that term you're bent by the way,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know, I'm no brown. Indeed, I always

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Speaker 3: thought political machine specifically referred to organizations of that were

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Speaker 3: rotten to the core, that were corrupt, but it was

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Speaker 3: really more of a specific type of political organization, and

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Speaker 3: then it became more associated with this kind of corruption

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Speaker 3: that we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 2: Is that how you see it as well? Yeah, you're

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Speaker 2: it's similar. I was thinking about this in preparation for

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Speaker 2: this one. It is similar to the way that in

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Speaker 2: the United States scheme implies a conspiracy, but in the

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Speaker 2: United Kingdom, scheme just means a government policy or plan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or even you know what a grand scheme that

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Speaker 3: that is, mate, That's how the Brits talk.

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Speaker 2: And today we are talking about something we've mentioned quite

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Speaker 2: often in previous episodes of Ridiculous History, political machinations or machinations,

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Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. Political machines. Tammany Hall is

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Speaker 2: one of the favorites of school teachers and college professors

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Speaker 2: and historians the world round, because even now, when we

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Speaker 2: talk about political machines. We talked about voting blocks, we

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Speaker 2: talk about campaigns, causerains, we talk about the countless people

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Speaker 2: behind a political candidate who make the votes happen.

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Speaker 3: I think it's also a really popular choice for school

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Speaker 3: because it one succeeded so absurdly, like it was just

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Speaker 3: an absolute, like perfect model for whatever better or worse

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Speaker 3: of what this thing is, and then it also just

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Speaker 3: crashed and burned spectacularly. So it has this the perfect

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Speaker 3: trajectory to not only be a lesson about how a

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Speaker 3: thing works, but also to teach a bit of a

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Speaker 3: moral lesson.

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Speaker 2: Agreed, there's a bit of a fable to it, a

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Speaker 2: bit of a larger than life kind of.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: There's some Shakespearean about this, about this rise and full

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Speaker 2: to the earlier question. Britannica has a great article on this,

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Speaker 2: and Britannica says that in US politics, a political machine

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Speaker 2: is any organization for political party headed by this key,

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Speaker 2: a small autocratic group, and this small group has enough

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Speaker 2: votes to maintain control of any given community, whether that's

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Speaker 2: a city, a county, or an entire state. Britannica goes

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Speaker 2: on to point out that as American cities encountered explosive

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Speaker 2: growth in the eighteen hundreds, partially due to immigration, partially

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Speaker 2: due to migration from rural areas. City governments found huge

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Speaker 2: problems in the world of honest politics because they were

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Speaker 2: poorly structured, and in that chaos, these de facto organized

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Speaker 2: crime enterprises in some cases. Yeah, they came into the

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Speaker 2: vacuum and they built the stability, They built the voter blocks.

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Speaker 2: The most famous, of course Tammany Hall run by William

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Speaker 2: Boss tweeked.

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Speaker 3: Oh why and my mine's Boss Hog. That's from the

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Speaker 3: Dukes of Hazard, right, Boss Hog. I've never seen the

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Speaker 3: Dukes of Hazzard. I just know it my reputations. The

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Speaker 3: one where they they jump over the car hood and

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Speaker 3: do a slide. It's like the It's like the Samuel

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Speaker 3: Clemens or Street named Mark Twain definition of a c

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Speaker 3: Everybody loves it. Nobody's seen, that's right.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to say a movie there was.

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Speaker 3: There was certainly a movie, uh you know, remake. I

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Speaker 3: don't know. Was there a really bad I'm sure it was.

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Speaker 3: Didn't have Tatum Chance chanting Tatum in it? Or did

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Speaker 3: I make that up? There was twenty one Jump Street too.

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Speaker 3: He was in that one that was also anyway, But

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Speaker 3: I was going to bring something up really quickly since

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Speaker 3: we're not going to really be able to dwell on

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Speaker 3: this too much. But that definition of the political machine,

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Speaker 3: it's very interesting because it almost makes me think of

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Speaker 3: what unions ended up becoming during the kind of corrupt

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Speaker 3: period of like the Teamsters Union, Like they control a

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Speaker 3: voting block in their membership, and they also control like

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Speaker 3: the means of distributing all of the things that make

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Speaker 3: you know, America what it is in terms of the economy.

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Speaker 3: So that's also an organization that was rife for corruption.

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Speaker 3: And if anyone's seen the movie The Irishman, you know

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Speaker 3: kind of how that story went as well. But Max,

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Speaker 3: you being kind of our resident union expert, is that

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Speaker 3: something you've thought about, like those early days of like,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Teamster's Union and how ultimately folks like

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Hoffa almost stepped in and became the boss tweed

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Speaker 3: of that era. Cough cough. The mops a problem, not

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Speaker 3: the union's cust Oh no, I know, I know, but

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Speaker 3: it was they were working hand in hand in a

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Speaker 3: lot of ways, and it was almost like it wasn't

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Speaker 3: ever not going to go that way, and then it

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Speaker 3: became very key to protect organizations like that from corruption.

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Speaker 3: That requires a lot of you know, real oversight and effort. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean it's the way I was thinking.

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Speaker 4: Look when I was writing this entire episode, it was

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Speaker 4: there's a need that the government is not filling, and

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Speaker 4: thus a group steps in to fill said need. And

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Speaker 4: so that's what these political machines with. That's what Tammany

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Speaker 4: Hall was doing. Because Tammany Hall, the supporters of Hamny

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Speaker 4: Hall now and back in the day, would say, Hey,

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Speaker 4: there's all these Irish immigrants here who you know, don't

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Speaker 4: have a job, don't have a place to live, they

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Speaker 4: don't have any respect. We're we're setting them up, and

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Speaker 4: you know what, because that's what we stand for, and

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Speaker 4: that's what the Democratic Party stands for, and that's why

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Speaker 4: they voted a Democrat also. So we don't get too

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Speaker 4: far off off this, I gotta tell you all the

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Speaker 4: cast in this Duke of Hazard's movie, because it is hilarious. Ye,

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Speaker 4: it's got Burt Reynolds of course, Linda Carter, Willie Nelson,

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Speaker 4: Jessica Simpson and starring Johnny Knoxville.

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Speaker 3: Finally, finally, give the man as turns out, has pretty

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Speaker 3: solid acting jobs.

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Speaker 2: He does this also like acting. That's the thing there.

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Speaker 2: These machines are often acting as though they are the

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Speaker 2: best interest on the ground that Britannica definition does not

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Speaker 2: end at our what we just said. They also talk

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Speaker 2: about you what this reminds me of? This reminds me of, Well,

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Speaker 2: let me give you the second part here to your point, Max,

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Speaker 2: the machine the organization which is severely hierarchical and autocratic

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Speaker 2: and severely non democratic. It makes its name, it cuts

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Speaker 2: its teeth by responding to those individual problems that are

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Speaker 2: often not addressed in historically neglected populations and neighborhoods in

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Speaker 2: exchange for loyalty at the polls for people who might

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Speaker 2: not have voted otherwise. They're saying, we'll do all this

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Speaker 2: for you. Just do this one thing for us a

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Speaker 2: favor in the future, if you will. It reminds me

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Speaker 2: very much of what you see organized crime doing in

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Speaker 2: Italy or in Japan, where you know, KOs Andostra, the

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Speaker 2: and the Yakuza do very similar things, often in historically

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Speaker 2: oppressed communities.

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Speaker 3: And I certainly wasn't trying to malign unions anyway. I

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Speaker 3: just think there's an interesting parallel, and the unions also

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Speaker 3: are serving in need of the government does not address,

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Speaker 3: and in doing that, it opens up the opportunity for corruption.

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Speaker 3: And I just think that's where the parallel lies. Like

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying unions are inherently corrupt, They're not sure.

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Speaker 3: But in being this extra governmental force, there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of opportunities to line individual's pockets and the pockets of groups,

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Speaker 3: and to perhaps interface with less legitimate types of organizations.

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Speaker 3: And I think that happens both with these unions, like

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Speaker 3: and then the situation that we see with Hoffa and

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Speaker 3: the irishmen, and with these political machines and the situation

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Speaker 3: we see with Sammony Hall, right.

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Speaker 4: And this is the thing I meant to say earlier

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Speaker 4: about I'm just tossing it in now. The way I

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Speaker 4: think about, like you know, unions and political machines and

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Speaker 4: stuff like this, it's it's a thing. It's not a

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Speaker 4: good thing, it's not a bad thing. It's a thing.

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Speaker 3: It can go either way.

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Speaker 4: Because they are in a position where they're helping people

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Speaker 4: in need, where so if they're transparent and their motivations

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Speaker 4: are good, they can do good for those people. But

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Speaker 4: if they're not transparent, they can take advantage of those people.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and the reason political machine has become such

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Speaker 2: a deletorious term, such an insult in American politics today

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Speaker 2: is because at some point they began centering on keeping

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Speaker 2: themselves on in power rather than helping people. Their goal

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Speaker 2: was to perpetuate their organization. You could look to folks

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Speaker 2: like Mayor Richard Daily of Chicago from nineteen oh two

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Speaker 2: he died in nineteen seventy six. That guy was a

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Speaker 2: political boss and leveraged this political machine power, this organization

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Speaker 2: to help address the problems of a Chicago encountering unprecedented,

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Speaker 2: amazing growth. There are other cases outside of Chicago, Boston, Philly,

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Speaker 2: New York, Kansas City. In those situations, there were a

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Speaker 2: lot of abuses of this power, a lot of corruptions,

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Speaker 2: smoky backroom stuff. And that's why this term still functions

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Speaker 2: as a pejorative. You know, there are these two big issues,

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Speaker 2: at least as Britannica puts it, one who delivers the votes.

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Speaker 2: The people who deliver the votes are often given what

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Speaker 2: are called patronage jobs. You know those are that's when

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Speaker 2: you hire the goons yea, and the sink offense and

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Speaker 2: the cronies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, quid pro quo, right, you do for me, I'll

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Speaker 3: give you this job. It's not a meritocracy at that point.

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Speaker 3: It's literally, you know, pay to play, and you're paying

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Speaker 3: with your vote, which means that you're not necessarily qualified

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Speaker 3: for the job that you're getting in return. Therefore, this

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Speaker 3: also has the potential to lead to further kind of

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Speaker 3: breakdown of society because these jobs are populated by people

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Speaker 3: who don't know what the hell they're doing. Not not

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Speaker 3: no shade on the people. Everyone wants a job, but

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Speaker 3: you also should you know, if you're working in a field,

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Speaker 3: perhaps even in like a like something like sanitation, or

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Speaker 3: even you know, something in the municipality, you got to

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Speaker 3: know what you're doing or else those systems are going

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Speaker 3: to fall apart.

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Speaker 2: And the problem becomes exacerbated when we're talking about cities

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Speaker 2: or communities that have strong ethnic or racial divides, especially

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Speaker 2: back in the day in the United States, this patronage system,

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Speaker 2: this hiring of people exclusively from an in group, can

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Speaker 2: just accelerate those hostilities because most of the people who

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Speaker 2: get jobs, most of the people who get powerful jobs

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Speaker 2: overseeing services, they're going to be from the same background

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Speaker 2: as the people who run the political machine, which means

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Speaker 2: that ultimately you create a feedback loop where the folks

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Speaker 2: who are supposed to be helped by these organizations become

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Speaker 2: the ones who are first to be victimized. And you know,

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Speaker 2: the US has done its best. This is a problem

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Speaker 2: all the world over. The US has instituted civil service

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Speaker 2: reforms that attempt to limit the number of friendly hires.

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Speaker 2: I guess you could call them patronage jobs. And they've said, look,

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Speaker 2: let's have direct primaries, let's let the people vote for

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Speaker 2: candidates instead of letting the parties nominate candidates all the time,

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Speaker 2: and let's have some sort of oversight, some sort of

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Speaker 2: judicial review to reduce the power of these fiefdoms. And

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Speaker 2: in their glory days, that's what they were. These were fiefdoms.

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Speaker 2: These were the kind of things that gangster rap talks

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Speaker 2: about when they say, oh, you've got to check with

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Speaker 2: me before you come to my city. That was a

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Speaker 2: real thing with Tammany Hall.

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Speaker 3: No question about it. And sorry to bring it back

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Speaker 3: to Scorsese again, but I've been on a Scorsese kick

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Speaker 3: lately and recently watched Casino and Casino. You know, is

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Speaker 3: all about the systems that run the casinos in Vegas

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Speaker 3: and how cal sprang up one hundred percent, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of those relationships, whether they originated with the mob

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Speaker 3: or what have you, they involved paying off politicians, whether

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Speaker 3: it be monetarily, which it did, but it also meant

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Speaker 3: in giving jobs to their cronies or kids or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And there's a really important scene that's kind of the

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Speaker 3: crux of the like fall from Grace in Casino mild spoiler,

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Speaker 3: but not really, where Ace Rothstein, the character played by

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Speaker 3: Robert de Niro, fires a floor manager because he's incompetent.

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Speaker 3: But that floor manager is the nephew or the son

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Speaker 3: in law of a very high level politician. And then

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Speaker 3: that politician's like, Nope, you're not please. You got to

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Speaker 3: give my boy another chance. He goes, no, he's incompetent,

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Speaker 3: I'm not doing it. So by standing his ground and

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Speaker 3: not yielding to the rules of this organization in this arrangement,

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Speaker 3: he essentially initiates his own downfall, and you see that

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Speaker 3: happen throughout the rest of the movie. And that's just

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Speaker 3: the kind of thing where if you don't play then

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Speaker 3: you're gonna get got or You're gonna get replaced by

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Speaker 3: somebody who will.

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Speaker 2: And what a better introduction could there be for us

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Speaker 2: to dive into, by far, the most infamous political machine

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Speaker 2: in United States history, up there with the founding Fathers

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Speaker 2: Once upon a Time, Tammany Hall.

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Speaker 3: Tammany Hall is.

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Speaker 2: Way older than a lot of people, guests, And I

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Speaker 2: love that you found this fact here, Max, Tammany Hall

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Speaker 2: was the executive committee of the Democratic Party in New

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Speaker 2: York City, and they exercised political control through the typical

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Speaker 2: blend of charity and patronage that we're talking about. Just

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Speaker 2: like in Casino, this was happening with Tammany Hall. The

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Speaker 2: name comes from an association that predates the American Revolution.

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Speaker 2: It's named after the once upon a time chief of

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Speaker 2: the Delaware People, Taminant, and Taminant, being a member of

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Speaker 2: indigenous Delaware peoples, would have doubtlessly been surprised to learn

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Speaker 2: how his name has just been dragged through the mud here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it goes back, like the story starts all

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Speaker 2: the way back in the seventeen eighties.

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Speaker 3: I mean, and Max, you know, it's funny. It's one

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Speaker 3: of these things I've always just accepted, like I assume

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Speaker 3: Tammany Hall was like a building where they did business,

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Speaker 3: like they're hanging out in Tammany all on the Lower

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Speaker 3: East Side or whatever. I've never thought to question it.

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Speaker 3: You used to have filled in a blind spot historically

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Speaker 3: for me that I've held for many years. Oh, you're

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Speaker 3: it's gonna hurt.

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Speaker 4: Then it is a building, It is a hall. The

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Speaker 4: group's name is Tammany and the hall they have a hall,

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Speaker 4: the named Tammany Hall. Okay, Still, the group became synonymous

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Speaker 4: with the building, and it was all just you know,

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Speaker 4: a bunch of white dude appropriating a name. Anyways, So yeah, Max,

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Speaker 4: learn to take a compliment, bro.

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Speaker 3: So I'm working on it. Don't worry, folks, they'll patch

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Speaker 3: it up by the end of the show.

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Speaker 2: So in The Demon Man in the seventeen eighties, he

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Speaker 2: got the halves and the have nots. The havelves are

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Speaker 2: the property owners, the aristocrats in all but name. They

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Speaker 2: are the ones who run New York City and New

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Speaker 2: York State. They are trying to stop freeholders or people

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Speaker 2: who are not as rich as them, from voting, and

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Speaker 2: they want to strengthen something called the Society of the Cincinnati.

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Speaker 2: It's a bunch of veterans from the Continental Army who

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Speaker 2: kind of like monarchies. They're kind of into monarchies. And

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Speaker 2: so William Mooney, this carpenter upholster in New York City,

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Speaker 2: he founds a different thing. It's called the Society of

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Speaker 2: Saint Tammany or the Columbian Order, on May twelfth, seventeen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, just a few days after George Washington becomes

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Speaker 2: the president, and he says what Mooney says, rather not Washington.

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Speaker 2: Mooney says, we're going to create a national society that's

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Speaker 2: going to be quote native in character and democratic in

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Speaker 2: principle and action and speaking yeah, speaking of speaking of

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Speaker 2: appropriation though. They give their officers Native American titles and

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Speaker 2: they call the head of the organization the Grand Sachem,

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Speaker 2: chosen from among his quote fellow chiefs.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's funny, Ben, And we may have talked

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Speaker 3: about this on the show. We definitely did off air,

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Speaker 3: But in working with some of our folks from the

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Speaker 3: Next Up Initiative, which is an incredible thing to kind

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Speaker 3: of help find underrepresented groups and give them the ability

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Speaker 3: to tell their stories through podcasting, through mentorship, and you know,

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Speaker 3: pairing them with like more seasoned folks and related to

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Speaker 3: the ropes Max is a big part of it. Bens

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Speaker 3: has worked on and I've worked on it to a

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Speaker 3: slightly less degree, but hope to do more. I was

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Speaker 3: working with one of our producers out of la who

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Speaker 3: was working with some folks from an indigenous community on

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Speaker 3: telling that kind of story which is grossly underrepresented. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think what is the reservation Dogs is maybe one

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Speaker 3: of the only kind of high profile, sort of real

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Speaker 3: on the ground stories about modern examples of what it's

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Speaker 3: like to live in indigenous communities. But she presented us

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Speaker 3: with an article with all of these very common expressions

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Speaker 3: that are really really offensive to Native communities, to Indigenous communities,

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Speaker 3: and a lot of them. That one was one that

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Speaker 3: I did not think of. That's when I've thrown out,

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Speaker 3: you know, in passing numerous times. Obviously, there are ones

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Speaker 3: that are obvious, like low man, the Totem bowl and

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Speaker 3: things like that, or get going on the reservation, hitting

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Speaker 3: the war path and all that stuff. But it's because

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Speaker 3: of stuff like this and the appropriation of these types

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Speaker 3: of terms and the sort of like commodification of the

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Speaker 3: image of these people, uh that that things like that

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Speaker 3: are in fact, you know, a problematic I'm so. I

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Speaker 3: didn't mean a soapbox there. I just it was news

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Speaker 3: to me, and a lot of it. And I think

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Speaker 3: it's always important. While I'm not living life in fear

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Speaker 3: of being canceled or saying the wrong thing, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's good to check yourself before you wreck yourself in

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Speaker 3: terms of these types types of things.

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Speaker 2: And life is a learning experience, no worries, my friend.

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Speaker 2: It's not a soapbox, if we all agree, which we do.

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Speaker 4: But another one also spirit antimal that's in our beast,

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Speaker 4: in our beasts.

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Speaker 2: And the totem pole thing. What what I find offensive

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Speaker 2: about that, in addition to the other stuff, is that

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Speaker 2: the bottom image of the bottom carving on the total

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Speaker 2: pole is foundationally the most important.

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Speaker 3: So they're even getting that basic party. I don't mean

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Speaker 3: to derail, but like, can I not say spirit animal?

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Speaker 3: I'm being I'm like that is that that's that is

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Speaker 3: less offensive than it is, maybe just mildly appropriative, but

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Speaker 3: I mean, and maybe it's like being used too flippantly

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Speaker 3: because the actual concept of a spirit animal is historically

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Speaker 3: a very sacred thing. Okay, I've already answered my own question.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say anymore.

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Speaker 4: Moving on, my approach on this is, uh, don't ask me.

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Speaker 4: I'm some white dude. Why don't we ask somebody who

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Speaker 4: you know is not from a long history of appropriation.

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Speaker 3: And Max was there the entire time. He is several

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Speaker 3: centuries old.

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Speaker 5: Exactly, So I thought, so somebody, we're getting to a buddy,

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Speaker 5: somebody needed to so the the Tammany organization in these

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Speaker 5: early days, they represent what you could call middle class

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Speaker 5: opponents of the Federalist Party.

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Speaker 2: However, there's an issue because they're cast of democracy, appropriation

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Speaker 2: and romanticization aside. It doesn't it doesn't take into account

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Speaker 2: less than middle class economic groups, people who also want

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Speaker 2: their lives.

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Speaker 3: To not stink. This ties into an earlier episode.

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Speaker 2: Also shout out to our research associate, mister Max Williams

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Speaker 2: on Aaron Burr.

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Speaker 3: That's right at one point in his checkered career, Aaron Burr,

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Speaker 3: and please, by the way, go ahead and listen to

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Speaker 3: our two part episode about this really interesting and problematic fellow.

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Speaker 3: But before experiencing his meteoric fall, can you have a

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Speaker 3: meteoric fall? You can have a meteoric rise. Meteors fall

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Speaker 3: typically the Shower, you know, his political downfall after you know,

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Speaker 3: killing Alexander Hamilton and that duel ending up on the

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Speaker 3: totally wrong side of history. That's an eighteen o four

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Speaker 3: He was a member of this organization of Tammany Hall,

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Speaker 3: and it was very instrumental in bringing about political victories

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Speaker 3: for the then Democratic Republican Party, and Thomas Jefferson actually

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Speaker 3: was a huge booster for them, and when he became

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Speaker 3: president in eighteen oh one, he gave them props and

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Speaker 3: he allowed them to really rise in power.

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Speaker 2: Because that's how the system worked, right, one hand washes

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Speaker 2: the other. A bunch of backscratching circles going on, just

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Speaker 2: like you're in a warm up exercise for drama class.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't until I think, well, it was pretty early, right,

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Speaker 2: just in around the same time you mentioned in the

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Speaker 2: early eighteen hundreds, the news got out and the average

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Speaker 2: person was saying, Wow, these city officials over at Tammany

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Speaker 2: are pretty corrupt.

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Speaker 3: Something has to be done. Rabble rabble.

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Speaker 2: So various people get removed from office. The controller gets

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Speaker 2: removed right, the U, the comptroller, the comptroller not a

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Speaker 2: thing yet. Unfortunately, the superintendent of the almshouse gets removed

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Speaker 2: because they mess with the money. And then, of course,

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Speaker 2: of special interest to our power, mister Max Williams, the

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Speaker 2: inspector of bread is given the boot.

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Speaker 3: Are these all like robin hood terms like alms for

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Speaker 3: the poor and a crust of bread? Me lord? It

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Speaker 3: is very weird. These these political terms clearly don't really

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Speaker 3: exist anymore. But an almshouse, I wonder, is that is

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Speaker 3: that like basically like the treasury well, you know, like

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Speaker 3: alms for the poor? Got it? Got it? So it's

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Speaker 3: technically its role is to look out for the disenfranchised.

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Speaker 2: And I guess it's it's kind of like saying, get

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Speaker 2: rid of the person who runs, you know, the city

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Speaker 2: funded housing that makes it today, Like maybe if someone

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Speaker 2: was here in Atlanta, Georgia, if someone was caught up

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Speaker 2: in a scandal about affordable housing, right and they were

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Speaker 2: in charge of Section eight or I wonder what that

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Speaker 2: would be like, dare we imagine?

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Speaker 3: Right? Yeah? Exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so the thing is these guys, and they were

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Speaker 2: all dudes when they were proven to be corrupt, when

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Speaker 2: they were removed officially from their positions, they were still

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Speaker 2: very much in play and in power in the hierarchy

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Speaker 2: of Tammany. So the next thing that happens around this time.

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Speaker 2: The next thing that happens is that there is a

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Speaker 2: growing Irish population in New York City. And I would

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Speaker 2: say the quiet part out loud. This reminds me so

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Speaker 2: much of Gangs of New York.

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Speaker 3: Talking about the forty thieves and stuff. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think this well, the Gangs of New York certainly borrowed

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Speaker 3: some ideas from this system. I think it was somewhat

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Speaker 3: historically accurate, but also took some liberties, if I'm not

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Speaker 3: mistaken by quite a few.

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Speaker 2: I think the main reasons reminding me of this is

432
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 2: the idea of forcing people to vote, of gathering up

433
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 2: folks and then grouping, yes, crooming, cooping, cooping, cooping, that's

434
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: the one, cooping yes. Uh So, the Irish immigrants don't

435
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: like the Tammany system, and they are ineligible to be

436
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: members of this organization because they are not quote native

437
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: born patriots. So, with absolutely no acknowledgment of a pretty

438
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 2: big piece of hypocrisy, hundreds of thousands of Irish immigrants

439
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 2: say we're protesting against bigotry, against the bigotry of Tammany Hall.

440
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 3: And they break.

441
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: Into a meeting on the evening of April twenty fourth,

442
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 2: eighteen seventeen. Eventually, Tammany says, Okay, for the greater good

443
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: of our organization, we're going to naturalize these immigrants. We're

444
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: going to say yes, you can be native born or

445
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: native patriots if not native born.

446
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: But they're not doing this out of benevol They're doing

447
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 3: this in an effort to bolster their numbers and their control,

448
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 3: their mechanism of control.

449
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this move turns out to be good for them, because, again,

450
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: as we said earlier, these political machines ultimately exist to

451
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: ensure their own growth, right, and helping people becomes a

452
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: secondary priority. So by accepting Irish immigrants in that population,

453
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: Tammany massively expands its voter block. And then they're I

454
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 2: hate that we keep having to use the word sachems,

455
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: but that is what they called each other. Another one

456
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: of their chiefs or they're big members. Martin van Buren

457
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: becomes president in eighteen thirty six. This is still like

458
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 2: the organizations this powerful at this point, they're controlling presidents

459
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: of the United States, but they're still not at their glory.

460
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 3: Days yet, not yet. But you know that it was

461
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 3: heading in that direction. And with like you know, Martin

462
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: van Buren who became president, like he knew what was

463
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: going on. These weren't great people ascended into power. It

464
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: really calls into question, not that we needed anything else

465
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: to call in the question the moral you know, fiber

466
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 3: of like early politicians or hell politicians throughout history. But

467
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: I just get when I read about stuff like this,

468
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 3: you just get a sense that almost everybody in power

469
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 3: that ascended to these levels was morally bankrupt at some level.

470
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 4: I will say Van Buren was against slavery. Of course,

471
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 4: he didn't air that opinion until after he left politics,

472
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 4: and he went through on all the horrible Native American

473
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 4: removal stuff that Andrew Jackson laid down. So yeah, not great.

474
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: He was conveniently timing his abolitionist stance. There's another way

475
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: to put it right, and let's go to the Speaker Rights.

476
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: Let's go to the Bill of Right Institute. This is

477
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: where we start to see the origin of the man

478
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: who became synonymous with Tammany Hall Boss Tweed. It's after

479
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: the Civil War. The city of New York is terrible.

480
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: You thought the nineteen seventies were bad, No, folks, people

481
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 2: are just throwing trash out of their windows. There's horse

482
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: manure everywhere. You're eternally coughing. If it's not just the

483
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: air pollution, it's because you have tuberculosis or cholera. This

484
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: is a great time for both of those diseases. And

485
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: more than one million people are crowded in this city.

486
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: The majority of them live in very terrible conditions. Poverties everywhere, illiteracy, crime, grifts.

487
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: Irish and German immigrants make up almost half the population.

488
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: They don't really have a political voice, and they depend

489
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: on churches and private charities that are often over whelmed

490
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: by just the sheer demand of people who need help. Ben,

491
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: that illiteracy element is going to come into play in

492
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: a very interesting way a little bit later. Wait for it, y'all.

493
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: Enter William meg meghair MegaR Meager meger May let's call

494
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 3: him boss Boss tweet Yeah we we we know him.

495
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: We love him, we know, we love him, we know

496
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: his boss tweet Yeah, William Meger Boss. Tweed the son

497
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: of a furniture maker, and from a tender young age,

498
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 3: Tweed uh realized that he was good at the wheels

499
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: and the deals. You know, the ends and the outs

500
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 3: the relationship management that is politics. He had what you

501
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: would call a high charisma point count if he was

502
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: a a role playing game character. A slight diversion. I

503
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: just started Baldersgate three. Oh, amazing, great people. I'm still

504
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 3: building my character. I'm overthinking charisma though, is a is

505
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: a very interesting like if you play games like Fallou.

506
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: I've never played ball Erskape, but certain games like Fallout

507
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: or Skyrim or whatever, you can you get a certain

508
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: number of points to spend into your character, and people

509
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 3: usually don't think necessarily to spend it into charisma, but

510
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 3: it gives you so many interesting like conversation checks, you

511
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 3: know where it gives you more options to like convince

512
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: people to do things for you. And that's what politics

513
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: is in a lot of ways. Is the power of

514
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 3: the pen, the power of the the smile and in

515
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: the handshake, you know, to get people to do things

516
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: for you that will keep you from having to actually

517
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 3: get your hands directly dirty and or dare we say bloody? Now?

518
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: Was Boss Tweed a super skilled administrator?

519
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: Eh?

520
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: He was really he was like LBG would be later.

521
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: He was very good at buttonholding people bit Jambo that

522
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: well that's what he called his penis. Yes, well was

523
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: he was very good at h He's very good at

524
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: intimidating or wheedling or cajoling people. And he eventually starts

525
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: as the let me see, he starts as the alderman

526
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: for the seventh Ward in New York City, which means

527
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: he's joining a group called the to your earlier reference,

528
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: the forty Thieves.

529
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so yeah, I hear it from gangs of

530
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: New York.

531
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: And he he goes to Congress for a while, and

532
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: he's not good at it. He's not able to make

533
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: much headway in his political career, so it only does

534
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: one term in Congress. He comes back and he says,

535
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: you know what, I like small ponds. It makes me

536
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: a big fish. And so he uh, he says, this

537
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: is where the action is on the ground, and he

538
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: becomes one of the leading politicians in the big Apple

539
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: while at the same time becoming one of the most corrupt.

540
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's one of those things too, where you

541
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: gotta wonder if people like to see themselves as villains.

542
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 3: And I think the easy answer is no. And it

543
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: also does it doesn't happen overnight. You know, you take

544
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: your First, there's always that turning point in a movie

545
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: where there's a figure like this, is that the day

546
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 3: they took their first bribe, you know what I mean,

547
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: And then it just becomes easier and easier every step

548
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: after that. So I do think it's important to like

549
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 3: sort of humanize these folks to a degree and not

550
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 3: think of him as like this giant gnashing you know,

551
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 3: fat hog of a monster man, because he's a human,

552
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: you know, and and humans, you know. He grew up

553
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: in this city, and I think probably there was a

554
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: desire to do some good. I don't think you're automatically

555
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 3: like from the start, you know, I'm gonna get into

556
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 3: politics so I can screw everybody over and enrich myself.

557
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: It starts from, usually I think, a place of goodness,

558
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 3: and then sort of devolves as also you realize that

559
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 3: these problems are a lot harder to solve than I

560
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 3: maybe thought. So hell, since it seems like an uphill battle.

561
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: When I at least put some duck, it's in my pocket.

562
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the argument becomes something like, well, all these

563
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: other bad forces are corrupt, so therefore I am not corrupt.

564
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: I am clever by using their tools of corruption against

565
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 2: them and with them right. And eventually you take the

566
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: longer view and you realize that from far enough away,

567
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: you and your enemies look very much the same.

568
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: I mean, you're right.

569
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: One of Tweed's first official acts once he starts getting

570
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: the attention of the Tammany organization, is to restore order

571
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: after the New York City draft riots of eighteen sixty three.

572
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: The protesters rioters here are largely from the Irish community,

573
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: and they're saying, hey, why are you drafting poor people?

574
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: This is the one where if you were a wealthier person,

575
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: you paid three hundred bucks to hire a stand in

576
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: to fight in the war, and I present tributes, right,

577
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: And so folks are saying, no, don't make us your avatars.

578
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: We're real human beings. Why do some people get this

579
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 2: cheat code? Why don't we get it well?

580
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 3: And the sad thing is, even without the draft, it's

581
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 3: not that much different than this, because the military offers

582
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: an out for some people from lower income communities and

583
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: perhaps some people that you know have not found their

584
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 3: way in life. So it's like, even without the draft,

585
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 3: it's it's not it's similar. You know, there are it

586
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 3: is the lower oftentimes Echelona community that have no option

587
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: other than to join the military. And I'm not saying

588
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: that's across the board, but it's just an interesting parallel

589
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: where you see, you know, the more things change, the

590
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 3: more they stay the same. M M.

591
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 2: You could argue on or show like stuff. They don't

592
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: want you to know that. That's at least part of

593
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: the reason for privatized healthcare. Uh So, the the big

594
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 2: thing Tweet does during these riots, he engineers a deal

595
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: and he says, look, yeah, you don't have to be

596
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 2: a millionaire, you don't have to be a popper, or

597
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: everybody has a few things in common. If you are

598
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: the head of a household and your family will be

599
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: left destitute should you go to war and die, then

600
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: you should get an exemption from the draft as well.

601
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: And then he says, you know what, further, since we

602
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: can't rock the boat too much, you can come to

603
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: us at Tammany Hall. We will loan you the three

604
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 2: hundred dollars to pay that substitute. And doing this, just

605
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: this one act of policy gets Tweed a huge amount

606
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 2: of influence over the working population of New York City,

607
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 2: and that in turn gets him a lot of power

608
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: in any policy discussion in the city, including everything from

609
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: like where are we going to build the next skyscraper

610
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: or whatever?

611
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: And this is probably some of the first places that

612
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 3: I heard some of the tactics that would ultimately be

613
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 3: really kind of honed by the mob and organized crime,

614
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 3: the idea of like, let's get behind and put our

615
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: investment into these big projects that on the surface are

616
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 3: like good for the community, but also offer a lot

617
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 3: of ways to shave and skim and charge for things

618
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: that never took place, you know, materials that were never

619
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: actually purchased, you know, forging invoices and things like that.

620
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 3: It's a great way to disguise money and to steal

621
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: taxpayer dollars.

622
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: Hiring employees that don't exist, getting your vig on the

623
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: in and the out the entire way through. Yes, and

624
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: that depends on hiring your cronies, right, that depends on

625
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: hiring your goons and your followers.

626
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 3: And as sopranos, they call those jobs no show jobs.

627
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 2: Right, That's what Tweed is doing, not specifically no show jobs,

628
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: but he's putting people in power, his cronies and his

629
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 2: goons who are loyal to his greater aims. He's sending

630
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: them from the smoky back rooms into the halls of government.

631
00:36:51,480 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: These folks collectively become known as the Tweed Ring. And

632
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: at this point they are raking it very soon, They're

633
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: raking in millions of dollars from corruption. They're skimming it

634
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: off the top. Life is good. They're handed people contracts

635
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: as favors, you know, and saying, hey, look, get me

636
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: x percentage of this and then do as thou wilt.

637
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 3: So he gets.

638
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 2: Favors and bribes, he gets kickbacks. It's everything good government

639
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: is not supposed to be.

640
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: Was do what thou wilt? Maybe the whole of the

641
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: law is that Anton Levey or is that from something

642
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: older than that? And he just popularized it in terms

643
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 3: of the Church of Satan. I think it's Crowley Crowley,

644
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 3: that's right. Sorry, quick off topic. Have you guys seen

645
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 3: the new Fincher movie yet, The Killer? Yes, I think

646
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 3: it's excellent. I like it a lot, a lot. I've

647
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,439
Speaker 3: watched it three times. But there's a great part where

648
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 3: he says this sociopathic Patrick Bateman type lone wolf Asassity says,

649
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:00,959
Speaker 3: let do what thou wilt be the whole of the law.

650
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: Somebody said that I can't remember who it probably it's

651
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: like the darkest comedy Finchers made. Oh, I think it's wonderful.

652
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: It reminds me a lot of drive, which I know

653
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 3: isn't for everybody, but it has some of those vibes.

654
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 3: It's very stylish, and I just think everyone should check

655
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 3: it out. Did you like it? But I did? I enjoyed.

656
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: I enjoyed the clear discrepancy between the killers internal monologue

657
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 2: and his actions, and a lot of the comedy can

658
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: be found.

659
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 3: He's a screw up too, He's not even Yeah, it's

660
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 3: just I think it's great. Not when he uh let

661
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 3: us know what you think.

662
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, because again not for everybody, but if you if

663
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: you go into it realizing it is what would be

664
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: called a black comedy, that I think you're gonna enjoy it.

665
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: Uh.

666
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

667
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: Some of the Tammany and the Tweed Ring, Uh, this

668
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 2: is a new This is like a renaissance for Tammany Hall.

669
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: They have ever quite even though they possessed influence over presidents,

670
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 2: they had never gone to this level of efficiency in

671
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: grift and graft.

672
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you can't get to this level without those

673
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 3: cronies in high places. You just can't. It's just not possible.

674
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: And so not only do they have people in stock,

675
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 3: because they've been around for so long, to the point

676
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 3: that Max found earlier that I had no idea how

677
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 3: long this organization had been around and how it had evolved.

678
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: You can't do that. You can't get to a place

679
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 3: like this without starting on the ground floor. And that's

680
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 3: exactly what they did. And now they're at the place

681
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 3: where any semblance of we're helping people is just out

682
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: the window, and they're yeah, sure, they're doing these projects,

683
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 3: building like the Brooklyn Bridge for example, you know, paving roads,

684
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 3: building marble court house, a lot of the things that

685
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 3: we see in New York City today. So you can't

686
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 3: really argue that the projects themselves weren't iconic and quote

687
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 3: unquote good. They were building hospitals. But within those projects

688
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 3: where all, like we said, are all these opportunities for

689
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 3: patting the costs and adding all of these you know,

690
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 3: kind of imaginary expenses that literally just went right into

691
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 3: the pockets of Tweed and his pals.

692
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like think of the County Courthouse, which was originally

693
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 2: going to be two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to build,

694
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: still a ton of money but eventually it ended up

695
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: being more than thirteen million dollars in costs. It was

696
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 2: never completed, but the Tweed Ring bank accounts were made whole.

697
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: It's really construction project for those guys' bank accounts. I mean, look,

698
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: Tweed also is getting a little bit dumb with his money.

699
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: He's being a little loud about it. He has a

700
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: mansion on Fifth Avenue, he has another home in Connecticut.

701
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: He's throwing all these parties and weddings. He's going real godfather.

702
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: I think there's a great thing match to point out

703
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: in the research that the Tweed Ring in this time

704
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy three, they bought in an estimated fifty

705
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars in in eighteen seventy three money.

706
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 2: And I think we do have an inflation calculator, but

707
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 2: that's in that's like their profits.

708
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: That's that's like in the money that was totally skimmed

709
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 3: and gripped and grafted, you know. Yeah, so yeah, I

710
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: would love to hear a beep in of boom and

711
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: a bop bop boom.

712
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: And a dude boom boo boo, but due boom boom,

713
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: fifty million dollars in eighteen seventy three and twenty twenty

714
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: three money. That's almost one point three billion. That's one billion,

715
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 2: two hundred and eighty two million, four hundred and fifty

716
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: four thousand, one hundred and sixty six dollars.

717
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 3: And has on the lowest seven cent. Yes, that's not

718
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: the low I mean what and and I mean it

719
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: makes sense that we would have a pretty wide range,

720
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 3: because this does hard to track. That's the point of it.

721
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: Make sixty seven cents right like two hundred million on

722
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: the upper end to your point in eighteen seventy three,

723
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars in twenty twenty three. That is

724
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: drum roll please, mister Williams, five billion, one hundred and

725
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: twenty nine million, eight hundred and sixteen thousand, six hundred

726
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 2: and sixty six dollars. And you'll love this partnal sixty

727
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 2: seven cents.

728
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh my goodness, what a oh, very very interesting.

729
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 3: And you know, I'd like to think that this kind

730
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: of thing couldn't happen anymore. Oh sure, that would be

731
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 3: absolutely naive and foolish. And what I was gonna say too,

732
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 3: is this whole like mansion on Fifth Avenue home in

733
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 3: Connecticut that's the template for like corrupt New York money men.

734
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not going to name any names, but

735
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 3: like having you'd think you'd have to really be low

736
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: key and not have a big you know, property and

737
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: not you know, try to overestimate the uh square footage

738
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 3: of your apartment buildings because you'd want us to below

739
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 3: the radar. But that's not how these folks work. Ostentatiousness

740
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 3: is the name of the game. They're like, yeah, come

741
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 3: at me, come at me, see what happens.

742
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 2: And that question they asked or that director they gave

743
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: was answered. The reason the tweed Rings specifically does not

744
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: exist the way it existed back then all goes down

745
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 2: to journalism. Yes, thank your local journalists the New York Times.

746
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: The people working there really put their lives on the

747
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: line talking about this corruption on the part of people

748
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: who ran the town. They started running stories about these

749
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: famous specific grafts and grifts. And then if you go

750
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: to Harper's Weekly, you see the editorial cartoons of the

751
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: legendary Thomas Nast, whom I love, love, love, and he

752
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: was doing the one of the best things you can

753
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: do as a cartoonist. He said, look, there are journalists

754
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: who are raking the muck, hitting the streets, reporting the facts.

755
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 2: And I'm going to get people who may not care

756
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: about politics normally, I'm gonna get them to laugh and

757
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 2: understand how bad this is. An approach that John Stewart

758
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: later used on The Daily showed a great effect.

759
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: I'm gonna draw Boss Tweed as a giant pig monster

760
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 3: clutching bags of money, you know, with dollar signs on it,

761
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: stomping on poor people that are bowing and scraping in

762
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: the streets. Oh, I get what that means. That looks bad.

763
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 3: I wonder what the deal is with this guy. Maybe

764
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 3: I should think twice about the power of cartoons. We

765
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 3: spoke earlier about how a lot of people in this

766
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 3: time in New York City couldn't read. So therefore, not

767
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 3: only was it just really impactful these cartoons, it was

768
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 3: crucial because those deep dive investigative pieces, while incredibly important,

769
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 3: and that's where like the meat of the info was,

770
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 3: those would not be reaching a lot of folks for

771
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: that very reasons because they couldn't read. So the cartoons

772
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 3: is a way of getting everybody.

773
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: Involved, which made Tweed even more concerned, because you know,

774
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: the the deep dive. Written articles are arguably for the learned,

775
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: and I hate that term, but that's what he was

776
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 2: looking at. He was saying, my voting blocks are working class.

777
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,439
Speaker 2: They understand cartoons. I need to look good in this

778
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 2: sphere of public conversation. And so he went to the

779
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: New York Times and went to Nast Thomas Nas specifically,

780
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: and tried to bribe them into silence. No one took

781
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: him up on the deal. No one shook his hand

782
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: on that, And that's part of how that's part of

783
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: why history works out the way it did. Boss Tweed

784
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 2: ultimately gets arrested in eighteen seventy one October. He's indicted

785
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 2: shortly thereafter. He has tried in eighteen seventy three. The

786
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 2: first trial, get this has a hung jury. For some reason,

787
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: not every jury member can agree this guy is guilty

788
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: despite the evidence. Again, for some reason, not everybody on

789
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 2: the jury thinks the evidence is sufficient to convict him

790
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: of these clearly provable crimes. So he goes to a

791
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: second trial and he is found guilty of more than

792
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 2: two hundred different crimes, and he is sentenced to twelve

793
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 2: years in lock up.

794
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 3: Speaking of that hung jury, just I mean, maybe it's

795
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 3: just obvious, but we're probably talking about jury tampering, intimidation.

796
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 3: That's always say to it that way, Yes, for some reason. Yeah, yeah, No,

797
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 3: I'm just like I wonder what those possibilities in this

798
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 3: day and age, it would have been a lot easier

799
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 3: to do it would than it would be now.

800
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 2: Oh one hundred percent. Yeah, and that's that's clearly what

801
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 2: happened was jury tampering. He gets sentenced in the second trial,

802
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: as we said, twelve years, and he doesn't get out.

803
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 2: He doesn't serve his entire term. He dies in prison.

804
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: And Max wants you to know that he dies on

805
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: April twelfth, eighteen seventy eight. Max, why do you want

806
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: people to know that?

807
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 4: Well, April twelfth is my birthday. It's not a great day,

808
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 4: by the way, it's the day of the Civil War started.

809
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 4: FDR died on April twelfth also, and then you know,

810
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 4: eighteen seventy eight, that's when I came into existence.

811
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 3: Max also wants you to know that Boss Tweedt died

812
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 3: on the toilet. He did not die in the toilet. Damn.

813
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 4: If somebody dies in the toilet, I will make sure

814
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 4: to point it out.

815
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: We yeah, I think I think we we've got a

816
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: pretty good sense for that.

817
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 3: Now.

818
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 2: For some reason, we can we can sort of figure

819
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: out when people died of the toil. Anyway, he is

820
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: in the Ludlow Street Jail at Grand Street on the

821
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: Lower east Side when he dies. It's the morning of

822
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: April twelfth, It's around eleven forty am.

823
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 3: And he starts whispering. He starts whispering, whispering, comes closer, closer,

824
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 3: closer still.

825
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: He says to his lawyer, William Edelstein, and Willie leans

826
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: in and he's trying to listen to what Tweet is saying.

827
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: And Tweed reportedly says, wow, well, till didn't fair Child

828
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 2: if killed me, he didn't echo like that.

829
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 3: I haven't. I have become worm's meat. They have murdered

830
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 3: it's me. So who's he talking about when he says

831
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 3: Tilden and Fairchild Charles Fairchild, the New York State attorney

832
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 3: general love, a good attorney general, a good good attorneys general,

833
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 3: who had essentially run him up the flagpole, you know,

834
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: taken him to the mattresses, whatever expression you'd like to use.

835
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 3: He he believed, at least Boss Tweet had believed in

836
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 3: his mind that he had cheated him because he guaranteed

837
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 3: him basically to walk free in exchange for a full confession,

838
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 3: which seems too good to be true.

839
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: But from his perspective, it's like with pro quote, of course,

840
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 2: you do you know who I am?

841
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: Right, you've seen my pig Man cartoon. It is I

842
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 3: Boss Tweet. But right, you know, let's just say we

843
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 3: could probably understand how at this point Tweed would have

844
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: had a bit of an overinflated sense of himself and

845
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 3: what he was capable of, and he maybe believed the

846
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 3: outcome would would swing more in his favor. So he

847
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 3: believed that he'd been cheated by Charles Fairchild. Samuel Jones

848
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 3: Tilden was the governor of New York who had essentially

849
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 3: made his name and his career on shutting down Tweed

850
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 3: and his cronies and his organization, making promises like I

851
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: will see this corrupt man die behind boss, you know,

852
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and going to clean up this city.

853
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 3: Well they were right about Tweet. Tweed did die behind bars.

854
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 3: But one man is not an organization entire, So Tammany

855
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 3: Hall powers through, and when the boss is out of

856
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 3: the picture, Boss Tweed dies they go on sort of

857
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 3: a Hearts and minds reevaluation self inventory. A guy named

858
00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 3: John Kelly proceeds or comes after Tweed, succeeds Tweed, and

859
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 3: then they bring in these reformers like Samuel Jones Tilden

860
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 3: to serve as again I hate this term sachems. But eventually,

861
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 3: and we're going to paraphrase some of this for time,

862
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: eventually we see the corruption rear its ugly profitable head again,

863
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 3: and then Tammany tries to clean itself up again. Then

864
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 3: it becomes corrupt again, and this goes back and forth

865
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 3: until they make an enemy of a guy you may

866
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 3: know from this show for US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt,

867
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 3: who says, all right, we're going to bust Tammany down.

868
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: It's going to be a county organization because they failed

869
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: to support him in nineteen thirty two. So even he

870
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: has some important self interest in these things. It declines

871
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 3: in power during these various mayoral reforms, and eventually the

872
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 3: most powerful political machine in America in history one of

873
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 3: is dissolved. It fades away. Max Sawy sneaks some key

874
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 3: little easter eggs into these outlines, referring to Roosevelt as

875
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: the future American King strike through prett president. Oh he

876
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: got closed, had to write some laws about him.

877
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 4: I'm a fan of FDR. I like the stuff he did,

878
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 4: but it doesn't change the fact he was president for

879
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 4: thirteen years. Right, he was not that old when he died.

880
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,399
Speaker 4: He was planning to stay for a good bit laws.

881
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

882
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 2: And you know, to be fair, many many other nations

883
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 2: have quarreled with that same thing the United States. I

884
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,479
Speaker 2: hope this statement age as well. The United States has

885
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: successfully practiced the peaceful transfer of power for quite some time,

886
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: and not many nations can say the same. So let's

887
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: hope that continues. To your earlier statement. Noel, at this,

888
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: I think, you know what, what a wild ride. We

889
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 2: decide we're going to make this a one parter. We

890
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 2: have more we'll get to in the future.

891
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 3: But probably could say some of this for our future

892
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 3: grab baggie type things. I agree left behind episode, but

893
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 3: there was a one little point that I wanted to

894
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: bring back. We started with this point. Sometimes these organizations,

895
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 3: they start with good intentions, and there were things that

896
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 3: Tammany Hall accomplished that were not bad. Like a lot

897
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 3: of these immigrants, and these folks were disenfranchised and did

898
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 3: not have opportunities, and Tammany Hall's original goal, for whatever

899
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 3: purpose it ultimately amounted to, was to help keep those

900
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 3: people from being, you know, from fully fully falling through

901
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 3: the cracks.

902
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: True good quoint And maybe that's where we end with

903
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 2: For further reading and check out the case for Tammany

904
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,399
Speaker 2: Hall being on the right side of history over at

905
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 2: NPR News Boston. That's w b u R. Thank you

906
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: so much as always to our ridiculous historians for tuning in.

907
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,879
Speaker 2: Thanks to our super producer and research associate. I love

908
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 2: to shout out our research associates, mister Max Williams for

909
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: this one.

910
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, excellent Max with the facts. Indeed, huge shout out

911
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 3: to Alex Williams. You compose this theme. Chris Frasciota, Steves,

912
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 3: Jeff Goats here in spirit, Jonathan Strickland, the quizz Ben,

913
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 3: my guy, my buddy. We should start a political machine.

914
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 3: What do you think?

915
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. All we need is three votes.

916
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: Are we gonna do? The three of us vote for ourselves?

917
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 3: Do the eyes have it? Oh? Yeah, nay, wait, I

918
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 3: I see. We'll see you next episodes for more podcasts

919
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 3: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

920
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows.