1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Welcome to Steff Will 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Never told you protection. iHeart radio, and today we are 3 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: so thrilled to bring you yet another interview. We are 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: so lucky we get to talk to amazing people. 5 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 2: One of my favorite parts of this and they're. 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: Experts in their fields or it's just amazing and I've 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: been pretty happy We've started the year off strong with 8 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: some good interviews and this one is no exception. It 9 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: was an amazing conversation. Today we are bringing you an 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: interview with doctor Gina stem who specializes in so many 11 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: like she has a great cv of all the things 12 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: she's written about, but a lot of intersectional feminist issues 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: in France, and it was really difficult to pin down 14 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: because there's so much to talk about there, right, So yes, 15 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: the conversation became a two parter. 16 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 2: Not my fault this time, it was not your faults. 17 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: But it was such a wonderful conversation and I had 18 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: so many other questions. So hopefully Gina will come back 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: because it's just complicated, it's so complex and there is 20 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: so much going on, and we asked these broad questions 21 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: that were obviously. 22 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 3: On one course condition to two episodes and she is 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 3: a wealth of knowledge is obvious. 24 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: This is her specialty. 25 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: She's written books on it and she continues to teach 26 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 3: and lecture on it. So everything it was so informative, 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 3: and I'm like, yeah, I need to take notes. So 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: for those of you listening and want to learn things, 29 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 3: take your time. This might have to be a re 30 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 3: listen because there's so much. There's so much that she 31 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: provides an information and then just kind of like in 32 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 3: comparison to what's happening in the US and just in 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 3: general when it comes to the feminist movement. 34 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: So it isn't a lot, it's a lot, and she 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: broke it down so beautifully. So in this first one, 36 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: this first part is much more of a foundational us like, yeah, 37 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: like you said, kind of here's our context, here's how 38 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: we got to where we are. The second part, we're 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: going to talk more about a lot of the more 40 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: recent issues around women and feminism in France. So that'll 41 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: be out next week, so keep your ear tuned, be 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: on the lookout for that. This is our job. We're professionals, yes, yes, 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: but it is, it's really there there. You need to 44 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: listen to both because it's fascinating to see how the 45 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: history and then where we are and there's so much 46 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: going on, so yes, keep an eye on for that. 47 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, let is let us get into 48 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: our interview with Gina. And today we are so happy 49 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: to be joined by friend of the show. I'm already 50 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: going to call you friend of the show. Gina. Welcome, Gina, 51 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: thank you for having me, well, thank you for coming on. 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself to our audience. 53 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 4: So my name is ginas tom I used to shee 54 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 4: here they and I am associate professor French at the 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 4: University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. And I have to do 56 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 4: the little disclaimer now or anything that I am about 57 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 4: to say is purely my own opinion. It does not 58 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 4: represent the views of my employer. And I have a 59 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 4: PhD in French studies, which means broadly literature and culture 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 4: from Emory University, with focuses on comparative literature and psychoanalytics studies, 61 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 4: which we'll probably come up a little bit later. And 62 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 4: my research focuses on environmental humanity, speculative literature, and feminism. 63 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 4: And I also am a freelance litter translator. 64 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: Ooh, you should come back on and talk about that. 65 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: I would love to hear more about it. 66 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 4: I would love to come and talk about that. 67 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: Yes, I was looking at your CV right before this, 68 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: and you've written about so many topics, and we had 69 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: a hard time when we were discussing what we would 70 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: talk about on this episode because there's so much. But 71 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: I guess to begin, can you give us kind of 72 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: the basic some context of the history of feminism in France, 73 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: of women in France. 74 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 4: Okay, So I'm going to do something really pedantic and 75 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: say we have to first talk about what we mean 76 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 4: by France and what we mean by women here. When 77 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 4: we think about France, we think about it as European, 78 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 4: but it's an empire, and it's been an empire for 79 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 4: several hundred years. There are territories that are part of 80 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 4: France that are in the Caribbean, in the Indian Ocean, 81 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 4: and in the South Pacific, and prior to the mid 82 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 4: twentieth century that also included large parts of Africa and 83 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 4: Southeast Asia as well. And when you talk about women 84 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 4: and women's rights and feminist movements, a lot of that 85 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 4: women's rights as they were required in Europe, and then 86 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 4: later in the Caribbean just didn't apply to those colonial territories, 87 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 4: which were in general that was under what was known 88 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 4: as the Indigenous Code, which meant a separate set of laws, 89 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 4: what we would now recognize as a system of Jim 90 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 4: Crow or apartheid. The Caribbean's always had a little bit 91 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 4: of a separate status, and now the Caribbean territories as 92 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 4: well as mayut In are known as departments, so they're 93 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 4: like the status that we know is Hawaii, and then 94 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 4: there are other more or less. And then you also 95 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 4: have the overseas territories which have a whole other system. 96 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 4: So what civic and civil rights you have access to varies, 97 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 4: and what do we mean by women. A lot of 98 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 4: the data that we have will be aggregated because you 99 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 4: can't you cannot use public funds or as a public 100 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 4: servant track any ethnic or racial data in France because 101 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 4: these are not legal concepts. And the idea was sort 102 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 4: of to say, well, race doesn't exist, therefore we're not 103 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 4: going to recognize it. But what that means in practice 104 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 4: is that there are inequities that don't have good data, 105 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: both by ethnicity, immigration status. You've got a little bit 106 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 4: more in terms of social class and in terms of 107 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 4: regional differences. But in France you have the sort of 108 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 4: informational situation that we're now finding ourselves in where the 109 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 4: CDC data is taken down, the NIAH data is taken down, 110 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 4: that has anything to do with diversity, although the current 111 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 4: Interior minister just said that he's favorable to gathering ethnic 112 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 4: statistics as long as it's not used for positive discriminate. 113 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 4: All of that and heavy air quotes, which means what 114 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 4: kind of discrimination is it going to be used for. 115 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 4: It's not great, But on the other hand, it is 116 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 4: a it is a very centralized government, which means that 117 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 4: you don't have the different state the difference is state 118 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: to state that you might have in the US. So 119 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 4: and also when we talk about women, so there is 120 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 4: going to be racial and ethnic disparities that I just 121 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 4: simply don't have the data to address, although there are 122 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 4: some smaller and like non governmental organizations that do get some. 123 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 4: But also when you talk about women, it's like, well, 124 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 4: we are going to talk about maternal health and things 125 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 4: like that, and know that it's not all women, and 126 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 4: we are going to talk about queer issues and that's 127 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 4: not all women. But having resources for people who want 128 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 4: to be mothers or for people who want alternative romantic relationships. 129 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 4: That means that affects the choices that are available to everybody. 130 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 4: Let's put it that way. I'm sure you've talked about 131 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 4: this all the time, but I just wanted to be 132 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 4: really clear here. We're also talking about both civic and 133 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 4: civil rights. So civil rights in terms of access to education, 134 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 4: access to professional lives, freedom of speech, freedom to appear 135 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 4: in public spaces, things like that. We're also civic rights 136 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 4: in terms of voting and in terms of being able 137 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 4: to present yourself for elections as well, and in terms 138 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 4: of both of those, there are a lot of parallels 139 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 4: between in France and the US UK, so things you 140 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 4: might be more familiar with, and just to set a 141 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 4: sort of baseline also in terms of how we might 142 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 4: compare material situations. General measures of women's material well being 143 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 4: are higher in France. Their life expectancy right now is 144 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 4: about five years higher than in the US, and they're 145 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 4: in the twenty sixteen twenty eighteen Maternal mortality rates, for example, 146 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: are twenty two in one hundred thousand in the US 147 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 4: and eight in one hundred thousand in France, and that's 148 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,359 Speaker 4: gotten much worse in the US since Row has been overturned, 149 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 4: so the comparison is even starker now. And in terms 150 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 4: of violence against women, that's something that I want to 151 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 4: address later on. But so I do want to be 152 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 4: clear there are a lot of things that I'm going 153 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 4: to say that are quite negative about the situation in France, 154 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 4: but I will also want to recognize that, especially when 155 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 4: it comes to access to healthcare and things like that, 156 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 4: it's a much better, uniformly and much better situation. So 157 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 4: in terms of history, the sort of history of women's rights, 158 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,599 Speaker 4: eighteenth century, you get some forerunners, same as in the 159 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 4: US UK. You especially get a woman named Antou Gouge 160 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 4: who wrote a doc human called the Declaration of the 161 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 4: Rights of Women and the Female Citizen. That's around the 162 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 4: time of the French Revolution. There are other female intellectuals 163 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 4: around that time. She's kind of the number one, and 164 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 4: she was also an abolitionist. Throughout the nineteenth century you 165 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 4: get a growing women's suffrage movement and a push for 166 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 4: more civil rights, not civic rights for women, but civil rights, 167 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 4: especially when it comes to control of their own finances 168 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 4: and property and abilities to divorce and have control of 169 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 4: their or have custody of their children. And people who 170 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: are really big figures in that are a women named 171 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 4: Flora Tristan who was a Franco Peruvian woman who was 172 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 4: sort of because of her situation, she wound up divorced, 173 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 4: no custody of her children, disinherited, but she became a 174 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 4: socialist activist who did a lot of data collection around 175 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 4: the working class in France and also a lot of 176 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 4: work for women's rights as well. And this is something 177 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 4: that's really that is a distinction between the US and 178 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 4: Frances that a lot of the early women's rights movement 179 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 4: came out of the working class and was in conjunction 180 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 4: with working class industrial activism and not as much the 181 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 4: sort of middle class Elizabeth Katie Stanton, Susan B. Anthony 182 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 4: kind of thing we'll see in the US. Two other 183 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 4: big figures I just want to mention real quickly Ubertino, 184 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 4: who was a journalist and a suffragist. She's the first 185 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 4: person to use feminist as a that we know of, 186 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 4: to use the word feminist as a positive thing. It 187 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 4: was originally a medical diagnosis to say that effeminates boys, 188 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 4: which is a bad thing in medicine at the time, 189 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 4: they are feminists, And then it was used pejoratively by 190 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 4: Alexander Duma the Son to talk about all these feminists 191 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 4: who want women's rights, but Ubertinokal is the first one 192 00:11:54,679 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 4: to say, no, really we want we are feminists and 193 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 4: we want to be feminists. And Malan Petie who was 194 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 4: a psychiatrist, a socialist, a suffragist, and an abortion rights 195 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 4: activist who she was born in nineteen seventy four died 196 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 4: in nineteen thirty nine. She was really big and integrating 197 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 4: women into the workers' rights and socialist organizations in the 198 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 4: early twentieth century. And she was even though she'd had 199 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 4: a stroke and was paralyzed. She was accused of providing 200 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 4: an abortion and wound being interned in a psychiatric hospital 201 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 4: and dying in nineteen thirty nine. So not great, wonderful figure, 202 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 4: not a great situation. So in the late nineteenth and 203 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 4: early twentieth century, though, there's a lot of progress piecemeal 204 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: in terms of civil rights, in terms of access ability 205 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 4: to work without permission, access to bank accounts, being able 206 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 4: to be in control of your own salary. That was 207 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 4: nineteen oh seven, for example. You have certain schools that 208 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 4: will open up to women's certain professions that you can 209 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 4: and it's really just baby steps. Kind of Around World 210 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 4: War One, you have the beginnings of what will become 211 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 4: maternal leave and subsidies for mothers, and the reasoning around 212 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 4: this is really interesting and I think it's something to 213 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 4: point out because it does come up a lot around 214 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 4: any kind of reproductive rights issue in France, and there's 215 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 4: this huge anxiety about population decline. This starts in the 216 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 4: eighteen seventies after the Franco Oppression war, and it kicks 217 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: into super high gear after World War One when you 218 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 4: have just the decimation of the adult male population. So 219 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 4: there's this provision of subsidies and maternal leave and eventually 220 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 4: protections for pregnant women in the workforce and things like 221 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 4: that that are to encourage women to have as many 222 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 4: babies as possible. And this is specifically framed as a 223 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 4: kind of as national policy, not as personal rights or protections. 224 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 4: This is going to come up again a couple of 225 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 4: years ago because demographic decline, as we've seen from certain 226 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 4: people in our own country, there's a lot of anxiety 227 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 4: and specifically demographic decline of people of European ancestry, and 228 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: the current French president will bring this up again when 229 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 4: he talks about the need for a quote unquote demographic 230 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: rearmament and will say that people that the government is 231 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 4: going to start offering fertility tests for every twenty five 232 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 4: year old. This is not law yet, but this was 233 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 4: what he proposed. So this is an anxiety that goes 234 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 4: back very far, and it's going to determine a lot 235 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 4: of the policy that comes after. In a wait that 236 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 4: is maybe the undertone of US policy, but not necessarily 237 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 4: until very recently. There's a penitendency to not say that 238 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 4: quiet part in the US. So in nineteen forty four, 239 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 4: post World War Two, that's when women get the right 240 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 4: to vote. So it's about it's quite a bit later 241 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 4: than in the US, and this is specifically couched as 242 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 4: in recognition of the part that they played in the resistance. 243 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 4: So nineteen forty four that's when they have a referendum 244 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:35,239 Speaker 4: that sets up their next constitution, and in the Constitution 245 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 4: of nineteen forty six, that's when the right to vote 246 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 4: is actually sort of enshrined in law. And also that's 247 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 4: when they get what is the equivalent of an equal 248 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 4: rights Amendment. What that means in practice is super problematic, 249 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 4: but in the language has been there since nineteen forty six. 250 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 4: In nineteen sixty you get the beginning the Family Planning Association, 251 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 4: which is the sort of planned parenthood is equivalent, and 252 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 4: you also get the first laws around prostitution that are 253 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 4: meant to protect sex workers. So what we would think 254 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 4: of as human trafficking laws selling other people's sex work happen, starts. 255 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 4: Then prostitution. Personal prostitution remains legal until I want to say, 256 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, but actually I didn't write that down, but 257 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 4: it's like it was weird it happened. I was there 258 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 4: the week it happened, and it was a very strange. 259 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 4: The landscape changed. So in nineteen seventy one, this is 260 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 4: when things sort of kick into high gear in terms 261 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 4: of addressing women's rights. As women's rights, you get a 262 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 4: very famous open letter called the Manifesto of the three 263 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 4: hundred and forty three, which is a manifesto signed by 264 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 4: three hundred and forty three mostly public figures, some private citizens, 265 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 4: but mostly public figures, saying that they have had an abortion. 266 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 4: And it caused a lot public blowback, but it is 267 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 4: one of the things that led in nineteen seventy four. 268 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 4: So we just had the fiftieth anniversary of the what's 269 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 4: called the ve Law, which is the law decriminalizing abortion, 270 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 4: and it's named after the Health minister at the time. 271 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 4: So the framing of this is very different than in 272 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 4: the US because it's not framed as a right to 273 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 4: privacy in the way it is under substantive due process 274 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 4: in the US. It is framed as in question of 275 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 4: social equity because rich women are always going to have 276 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 4: access to safe abortions, they can go to Switzerland, they 277 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 4: can go to the UK, and then poorer women, working 278 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 4: class women are going to be forced to into very 279 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 4: unsafe situations. So this is framed as a social equity issue, 280 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 4: and it's also within the law. There are also a 281 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 4: bunch of incentives to have children that are being added 282 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 4: to sort of quiet down that anxiety of what if 283 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 4: we allow abortion, will that cut our birth rate. There's 284 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 4: a giant asterisk here, which is that abortion was not 285 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 4: only legal but being forced on many people in the 286 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 4: overseas territories, specifically in Reunion, where like we know this 287 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 4: from US history in Canadian where forced sterilization of marginalized 288 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 4: populations was taking place in Reunion. There's a long history 289 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 4: of forced sterilization and abortion. Like women would come in 290 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 4: for a separate health problem, they'd be like, oh, you 291 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 4: need a procedure and abort and then sterilize them. There's 292 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 4: a book on this by an authory of Councils of 293 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 4: Algees called The Wombs of Women, Race, Capital and Feminism, 294 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 4: which documents this really well. It came out in a 295 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 4: court case at the time, but that book is much 296 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 4: more recent. But since this time the abortion laws have evolved, 297 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 4: so it went from ten weeks originally now it's at 298 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 4: fourteen for like standard no questions asked abortion, it's covered 299 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 4: by the National Insurance. It's illegal to impede someone from 300 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 4: getting an abortion, and in twenty sixteen the waiting period 301 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 4: was abolished in medical abortion, so the pill was allowed. Unfortunately, 302 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: this is one of the areas where it's been the 303 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 4: far right, which is now very close to being in government, 304 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 4: has articulated its desire to revisit this. In nineteen seventy 305 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 4: two you get an Equal Pay Act, but the outcome 306 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 4: of that is not great. So in twenty twenty one, 307 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 4: for a woman working in the private sector, annual salary 308 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 4: is eighteen six hundred and thirty euros for minutes twenty 309 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 4: four thousand, six hundred and forty A lot of this 310 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 4: has to do with the fact that women get because 311 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 4: of the uneven distribution of household tasks and childcare, often 312 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 4: you wind up in lower paid jobs. There's also discrimination 313 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 4: and employment which is illegal but happens obviously, and many 314 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 4: women are forced to only work part time because of 315 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 4: their childcare obligations. So the national institutes and I want 316 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 4: to think it's economic and something statistics, I just blanked 317 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 4: on the what that acronym means. It's insay, if you 318 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 4: measure equal time, same job, same company, the disparity is 319 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 4: four point three percent. But there are huge disparities in 320 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 4: what you work, you do for whom, and whether it's 321 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 4: full time or part time. Nineteen seventy five, mutual consent 322 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 4: divorce was allowed, and in as of two weeks ago, 323 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 4: you can no longer divorce your partner for not having 324 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 4: sex with you. So yeah, so this was what was 325 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 4: known legally as the conjugal duty. So it is part 326 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 4: of your job as a I mean, in theory is 327 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 4: not gender, but in theory, your conjugal duty spouse is 328 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 4: to have sex with a person. But the European Court 329 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 4: of Human Rights two weeks ago said that this is 330 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 4: not consistent with how we understand consent because of saying 331 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 4: I will divorce you and leave you in potentially a 332 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 4: precarious situation if you don't have sex with me is 333 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 4: not considered by the European Court of Human Rights to 334 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 4: be acceptable. 335 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: Two weeks ago. 336 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 4: Wow, Yeah, that's two weeks ago, small gum. Yeah. And 337 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 4: marital rape was outlawed in nineteen ninety two, So nineteen 338 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 4: eighty is when rape as such became a crime separate 339 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 4: from just assault. And you do have pretty robust laws 340 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 4: in terms of sexual harassment, revenge porn, and online gender 341 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 4: based harassment, but the enforcement of those is extremely patchy, 342 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 4: and I will talk a little bit more about that later. 343 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 4: Getting the this timeline. In two thousand, a law that 344 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 4: insisted on parity for when you're a political party, you're 345 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 4: supposed to present lists that have an equal number of 346 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 4: men and women or pay a penalty. There are a 347 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 4: couple of problems with that. One is that this recognizes 348 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: that like so you're not allowed to give any kind 349 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 4: of quota system for race, because that would be admitting 350 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 4: that people are different. But it's okay to say that 351 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 4: men and women are different kinds of people. Yes, it's 352 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 4: there's some inconsistencies there that will I'm sure get me 353 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 4: yelled at online. But also a lot of parties prefer 354 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 4: to pay a penalty. So right now you have thirty 355 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 4: six percent of the Chamber of Deputies, which is the 356 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 4: main legislative chamber. That is that are women again doing 357 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 4: better than the US twenty eight point seven percent for 358 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 4: US Congress. In twenty eleven, Istumbul Convention on Gender Equality 359 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 4: is adopted by France. So this is a convention in 360 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 4: Europe which says that defines gender as socially dependent rules 361 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 4: and norms based on sex, and it requires that all 362 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 4: signatories adopt laws concerning gender based violence. So that's how 363 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 4: you wind up with these robust legal protections for sexual harassment, discrimination, 364 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 4: et cetera. But then what is actually the outcome to 365 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 4: that law being passed. Twenty thirteen, you get a Marriage 366 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 4: for all, so marriage that includes same sex couples. And 367 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one you get what's called the Bioethics Law, 368 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 4: which extends fertility treatment and what they call medically assisted pregnancy, 369 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 4: so that could be anything from artificial insemination to in 370 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 4: vitro to single women and same sex couples. The UHCY 371 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 4: is still uniformly outwalked. We're not in a situation like 372 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 4: Italy just did where they said we will not recognize 373 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 4: children born of surrogacy in other countries where it's legal, 374 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 4: So we're not there, but that has been proposed by 375 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 4: some people on. 376 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 2: The far right, not recognized, like they don't exist here. 377 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 4: That's they don't exist. They don't have Italian citizenship. They're 378 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 4: not your kids. 379 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: Wow, they are illusions, they're ghosts. 380 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: Okay, yes, essentially, it's a whole, a whole other thing 381 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 3: right now, that's interesting. 382 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm laughing. But that probably will happen in 383 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: the US too. 384 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 4: So it's it's terrifying, I say nonchalantly. So both in 385 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 4: terms of the marriage for all and the bioethics law. 386 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 4: There are a couple of weird backlashes that happen. One 387 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 4: is sort of the expected backlash from the right, and 388 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 4: especially from the religious right, which is smaller in France 389 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 4: than it is in the US, although it's growing, and 390 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 4: that took the form of what was called. So they're 391 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 4: like marriage for All, We're the March for All. We're 392 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 4: going to make this huge demonstration full of vile, homophobic rhetoric, 393 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 4: and they promote some really awful ideas around same sex couples. 394 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 4: But then on the traditional left you get a kind 395 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 4: of objection that you did not see around these issues 396 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 4: in the US, and that is a sort of pseudoscientific 397 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 4: objection in terms of canned children of homoparental couples be 398 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 4: one okay and two good citizens. So I'm coming as 399 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 4: someone who is not hostile to psychoanalysis. There are many 400 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 4: kinds of psychoanalysis, but there is a popular perception of 401 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 4: it that somehow takes root in a certain intellectual class 402 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 4: where there was a proliferation, including from a Socialist deputy 403 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 4: on the floor of the legislature saying, but how will 404 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 4: a child resolve their Oedipus complex? And if they don't 405 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 4: have a father and a mother. So you can google 406 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 4: Oedipus complex resolved Marriage for All and see article article 407 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 4: art like from very respectable publications. I am not going 408 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 4: to say psyclonalysis debunked. The Oedipus complex has been debunked. 409 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 4: That is a description of a specific situation that happened 410 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 4: in a specific set of people in a specific class 411 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 4: in Vienna. As a description, I'm not going to argue 412 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 4: with it. I wasn't there. I don't know. I'm sure 413 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 4: it can occurs as a group dynamic, but to prescribe 414 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 4: that as something that needs to happen in order and 415 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 4: because the family, the nuclear family, is the hearth of 416 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 4: the republic is specious and as an American a bit 417 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 4: shocking coming from the left, and that rhetoric has in 418 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 4: many ways, there's been a toleration of homosexuality as a practice, 419 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 4: but not as an identity that I think pervades the 420 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 4: political discourse around homosexuality, around homo parental families, and now 421 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 4: around transgender issues. That is absent largely from the US debate. 422 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 4: It's on the fringes of the UK. But that's something 423 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 4: I just want to flag as being quite particular to 424 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 4: this situation. And then I'm going to come back to this, 425 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 4: but in twenty twenty four, the freedom to have an 426 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 4: abortion was added to the Constitution, and I will come 427 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 4: back to that in sort of the current events section 428 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 4: at the end, But that's where we are. Whoa in 429 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 4: terms of feminism, so political or social movements, I can 430 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 4: give you a much shorter rundown. So in nineteen forty 431 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 4: nine you get Simone to Beauvoir publishing The Second Sex. 432 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 4: So this is where you get the very famous quote 433 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 4: one is not born a woman, one becomes one. So 434 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 4: it's really showing the identity of women to be a 435 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 4: social construction that overlays certain biological characteristics. However, that text 436 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 4: is not perfect. There's a lot of very deeply internalized 437 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 4: misogyny in there, including talking about how women, because they 438 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 4: don't have access to the public sphere, have yet to 439 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 4: write a truly great novel because they're only writing about 440 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 4: women's issues, which seems to sort of say women's issues 441 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 4: can't be of general interest, domestic issues cannot be of 442 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 4: general interest. In nineteen seventy you get the foundation of 443 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 4: the women's liberation movement, and that actually is rooted quite 444 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 4: deeply in both in traditional Marxist socialist communist activism in France, 445 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 4: so looking at social inequalities, looking at who has the 446 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 4: material resources and how they exploit other people's labor and bodies, 447 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 4: and also in the US women's movement, the Betty for 448 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 4: Dan's feminine mystique made a big impact on French feminism 449 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 4: as well. And in the US we have a tendency 450 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 4: to be like first wave, second wave, third wave, third wave, 451 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 4: plus it's a little bit different in France, it's a 452 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 4: little bit more fragmented. So you get this women's liberation movement. 453 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 4: They're big in terms of this is right around the 454 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 4: time that abortion is decriminalized, and they're very instrumental in that. 455 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 4: But you get a couple of different splits within the 456 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 4: movement that happen. One is you get the more politically 457 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 4: oriented almost almost all sociologists or novelists who are identify 458 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 4: first as revolutionary feminists. And then you get a group 459 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 4: that splits off who are very Rugian psychoanalytic practice, and 460 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 4: these are people who become your sort of differentialist feminists 461 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 4: who are really looking at women and men and sexual 462 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 4: difference as being sort of a very constitutive psychological formation. 463 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 4: The other problem with them is that they're leader. Antoinette 464 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 4: Fook trademarked Women's Liberation movement and then started a press 465 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 4: that so it basically kind of sucked all the air 466 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 4: out of the room for financial reasons. Honestly, because they 467 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 4: were getting that press, was getting a lot of the 468 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 4: financial resources and promoting their specific strain of feminism. That 469 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 4: press still exists, it's really broadened its scope. It's become 470 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 4: much friendlier to a lot of different kinds of feminists. 471 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 4: But it is rooted in that original split. And then 472 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 4: you have a split between the materialists feminists on one side, 473 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 4: so you get them and then the revolutionary feminists who 474 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 4: start to describe themselves as materialists. And there's sort of 475 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 4: three precepts in this. One that gender precedes sex, that 476 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 4: the idea that we need to divide people into two 477 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 4: kinds of people is it's not just that we have 478 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 4: two biological sexes. And then gender is sort of on 479 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 4: top of that, but the need to divide people into 480 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 4: two groups precedes our understanding of who's in those two groups. Two, 481 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 4: that they understand women's oppression from a material standpoint, access 482 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 4: to resources, exploitation of bodies, and they are explicitly rough solutionary. 483 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 4: They want to change society from the ground up. But 484 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 4: then in nineteen eighty one they have a big sort 485 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,239 Speaker 4: of breakup where because there are a group within that 486 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 4: Monique Fatigue, whom I work a lot with is. She's 487 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 4: the author of The Straight Mind, which is one of 488 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 4: these early texts that talks about sort of compulsory heterosexuality. 489 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 4: It's really questioning the necessity for it and whether you're 490 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 4: heterosexuality as an institution, whether you can have that without 491 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 4: an exploitative relationship. And so there's this group her, but 492 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 4: not exclusively her, that are saying, our identity as lesbians 493 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 4: is a political identity, and we are fighting not just 494 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 4: for women's rights but also for the right to be lesbians. 495 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 4: And there's another group that says, no, what you're doing 496 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 4: is too particular. It is it isn't a political identity, 497 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 4: and this includes women who were lesbians but said, that's 498 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 4: not a political part of my identity. That's just a 499 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 4: thing I do. And so there's a split in the 500 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 4: middle of the group that actually winds up with Manique 501 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 4: Fatigue going to the US and teaching in colleges in 502 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 4: the US because it became almost impossible for her to 503 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,479 Speaker 4: publish in France. Then you get this weird American creation 504 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 4: called French feminism that is largely a university philosophical discourse 505 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 4: made up of the triumvirate of Ellen SISU LUSA Rigarai 506 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 4: and Julia Christeva, and there's a someone named Cape Costello 507 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 4: who's written a pretty great thesis about how this isn't 508 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 4: this constitution of feminism, even though those people didn't really 509 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 4: have a political agenda. They're mostly talking about sort of 510 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 4: what is what it is to be a woman, and 511 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 4: this gets sort of crystallized in the American university system 512 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 4: as French feminism while ignoring a lot of the political 513 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 4: activity that these other people had done on the ground. 514 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 4: There's kind of been a turnaround in the last five years, 515 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 4: but still it's kind of like this. One last figure 516 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 4: is woman named Fransas Dobun who's the inventor of the 517 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 4: word ecofeminism. So she wrote a lot about how women 518 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 4: and the non human are both sort of the objects 519 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 4: of exploitation, like physical appropriation by the dominant patriarchal capitalist class. 520 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 4: And also and the other side of this is that 521 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 4: environmental degradation falls harder in many ways on people who 522 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 4: are identified as women. When you think about climate refugees, 523 00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 4: when we think about accumulation of toxic substances in body tissue, 524 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 4: things like that, and that was in the seventies. It 525 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 4: kind of goes you don't see that a lot until 526 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety three when a bunch of English language people 527 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 4: pick it up and run with it. And then again 528 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 4: this is experiencing a resurgence. Sorry that was That was 529 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 4: very long. 530 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 3: But the whole history that we needed and please don't 531 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 3: give us a quiz because I will, especially with the names. 532 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: I'm am, was like, this is where I know French 533 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 2: is not my language. 534 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 3: Because I have no idea what we're saying the names of, Like, oh, 535 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 3: I would be so bad at that, but I loved 536 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 3: like that information is Obviously you are a professor and you're. 537 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 2: A good one at that. 538 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 3: So all of those things, I feel like I need 539 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 3: to be taking notes something I'm not where am I? 540 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:47,959 Speaker 2: Okay? Yes? 541 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 3: And this timeline because you did such an amazing job 542 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 3: in laying that out, and it was very like that 543 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 3: haunting familiar familiarity in it all is like. 544 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 4: Oh God, yeah, for sure, it's so many of these 545 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 4: things just don't go away. 546 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: It's true, and we did. It was a huge ask. 547 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: We knew it when we were just break down and 548 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: very briefly what happened in this. 549 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 3: France about France and women and then the marginalized too, 550 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 3: that's at all, yes. 551 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: Things, so thank you so much for that. But that 552 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: brings us to today. There is a lot to talk 553 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: about still and one of the things I was interested 554 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: in when we were workshopping topics is you mentioned the 555 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: visibility and valuation of women in public life in France. 556 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: Could you break that down for us? 557 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 4: Okay, So the biggest sort of symbolic place where you 558 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 4: see this is in the Pantheon. So that's this big monument. 559 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 4: It's a big mausoleum in the center of Paris, and 560 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 4: it was designed as a church, but now it's where 561 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 4: they bury people who are considered to have been like 562 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 4: the great men of the nation. And there are eighty 563 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 4: one people in it, and seven of them are women, 564 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 4: and three of them have gone in in the last decade. 565 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 4: So one that proportion is and also that the question 566 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 4: of who has the right to be put in there 567 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 4: when you're a woman, I mean at all, because that's 568 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 4: a big question. But so the women who are in there. 569 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 4: You've got Sophie Berto who was a chemist in the 570 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 4: nineteenth century, but she's in there because her husband's in there, 571 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 4: and she and her husband wanted to be buried together. 572 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 4: There's Marie Curie. I don't think anyone's gonna argue with 573 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 4: that one. 574 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 2: One guess there are there. 575 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 4: Are three significant members of the resistance, so a woman 576 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 4: named Jean Mantillon and Mini Manuchion. There's Simond, who's the 577 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 4: She was the health minister that proposed the law legalizing 578 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 4: abortion and a number of other important laws. And she 579 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 4: survived the concentration camps during World War Two. And is 580 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 4: Josephine Baker. And Josephine Baker is really complicated because one, 581 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 4: she's the only woman of color in there, and she 582 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 4: did become a French citizen, and she did do a 583 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 4: great deal of service to the nation. She was a resistant, 584 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 4: she was a spy for the French resistance. She was 585 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 4: a humanitarian. But a couple there are a couple of 586 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 4: issues with that. One is that there's an overvaluation of 587 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 4: American people of color and African Americans as compared to 588 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 4: people of color who come from the French former colonial empire, 589 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 4: and which means that she's there, but a bunch of 590 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 4: other people are not. And the other issues with that 591 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 4: are that she never criticized the French colonies in Africa, 592 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 4: for example, So you have some people who could be there. 593 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 4: There's a uh, there's a woman named Louise Michelle who 594 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 4: was a revolutionary, a school teacher and all around badass 595 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 4: if you want to look up Louise Michelle, but she 596 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 4: was staunchly anti colonialist. You have Suzanne Sesare, who's the 597 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 4: poet and politician, a Mesel's wife, who was a fantastic 598 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 4: writer on her in her own right. She's been getting 599 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 4: her flowers recently from university people, but she hasn't gotten 600 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 4: the public or political recognition. You have the Nardal sisters 601 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:58,240 Speaker 4: who were Martiniquin women who started the the first Black 602 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 4: salon literary salon in the early twentieth century in Paris 603 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 4: and were writers in their own right. And specifically, you 604 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 4: have a woman named Giselle Alimi. So she was of 605 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 4: Tunisian Jewish origins and she is enormous in French history. 606 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 4: So she was became known because she defended an Algerian 607 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 4: resistant woman named Jemil Bupasha in nineteen sixty who was 608 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 4: tortured and raped by French soldiers during the Algerian Revolution. 609 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 4: She was one of the lawyers and in the Boobeini trial, 610 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 4: which was a trial in nineteen seventy two of doctors 611 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 4: who had provided abortions and they were acquitted, And this 612 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 4: is one of the other things that led up to 613 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 4: the legalization. She was one of the three lawyers in 614 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 4: what's called the pe Castellano affair, which is between nineteen 615 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 4: seventy four and nineteen seventy eight, a major case where 616 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 4: a lesbian couple was gang right. And this is how 617 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:12,800 Speaker 4: rape became a separate legal category and punishment in France. 618 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 4: And she was also because she was also an elected official, 619 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 4: she was at the origin of the law that abolished. 620 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 4: So you used to have in France where you had 621 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 4: the age of consent and then you had the age 622 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 4: of consent if you were gay, and you had to 623 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 4: be an adult adult like for a while, I was 624 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 4: twenty one in order to have gay sex, when the 625 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 4: age of consent for heterosexual sex was fifteen. 626 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 2: There's so many questions. 627 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I would also like to mention that a 628 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 4: couple of the people that are currently in the cabinet 629 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 4: in France voted to keep that distinction in the eighties. 630 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 4: So Gisel l Ami, huge enormous critic of the French government. 631 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 4: Is she going to get in the pantheon. I don't know, 632 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 4: she hasn't been dead that long, but they don't seem 633 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 4: positive to the idea. So the picking of a woman 634 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 4: who is a woman of color, but who was not 635 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 4: critical of the France's imperial possessions and their treatment of 636 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 4: their subjects, versus one who did so much for French 637 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 4: women and for equality overall in France, but who was 638 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,240 Speaker 4: extremely critical. So you get it. So in the opening 639 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 4: ceremony of the of the Olympics last year, he had 640 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 4: a little bit of a corrective and I want to 641 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 4: absolutely say congratulations to a Maajurie, the guy who created 642 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 4: that whole spectacle. He he did a good job in 643 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 4: many ways. It's unfortunately, I think a lot of window dressing. 644 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 4: But I don't want to take anything away from him 645 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 4: or the efforts that he made. And he made these 646 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 4: statues come out of the sene of women who had 647 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 4: not been recognized. So Simon Veay was in there, but 648 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,760 Speaker 4: you also have but he had gizell Aimi, so this lawyer, 649 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 4: he had Chris Paulette nardal So, one of the women 650 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 4: who ran the salon, an athlete, a filmmaker, Louise Michelle, 651 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 4: the revolutionary Christine de Pisan, who was a medieval poet 652 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 4: who wrote a lot about women's role in society, and 653 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 4: then unfortunately Jean Berret, who was the first woman to 654 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 4: circumnavigate the globe, but she was also huge colonizer. So 655 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,359 Speaker 4: that opening ceremony also brought up the prevalence of miss 656 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 4: Sage Noir in public spaces against the singer Ayan Nakamura 657 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 4: who she was dressed in gold and doing the song 658 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:08,240 Speaker 4: with the with the brass band on the bridge. The 659 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 4: reaction of the right to her being asked to sing 660 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 4: was abject. So she is French of immigration, you know, 661 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 4: a background that includes immigration, but she is French. She 662 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 4: sings in French. The end, they said, well, we should 663 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 4: have someone who really represents France, like Celine Dion or 664 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 4: Laura Fabian. Neither of those are French, right, And then 665 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 4: they said one of those Canadian. I think I think 666 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 4: Lara Fabian's Belgian, but I'm not sure. Then and then 667 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 4: they said, and I can't remember exactly which person this was, 668 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 4: who I think it was, I'm not even to depend, 669 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,399 Speaker 4: but I can't be one hundred percent sure. But then 670 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 4: she's like, well, she doesn't sing in French. And it 671 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 4: was pointed out that yes, in fact, she sings in French. 672 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,919 Speaker 4: What other language do you think she sings? And she said, 673 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:08,319 Speaker 4: and this person said in foreigner and this is going 674 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 4: to televise. And this kind of missagyir so misogyny that 675 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 4: is accentuated and exacerbated by the fact that that a 676 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 4: woman who is black is in public is also evident 677 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 4: in the treatment of the most recent winner of Star Academy, 678 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 4: which is like the American idol version, so Ebony who's 679 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 4: from the Caribbean, and the just wave of hate that 680 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,240 Speaker 4: she got online, as well as against the current Miss 681 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 4: France when she wouldn't say I am Charlie. So this 682 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 4: is in reference to the attacks a decade ago on 683 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 4: Charlie Hebdo. The newspaper Charlie Hebdo suffered a really terrible 684 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 4: attack on its personnel. However, Charlie Hebdo has a tradition 685 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:08,279 Speaker 4: of running tremendously islamophobic and misogynistic content, especially editorial cartoons. 686 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 4: In the last year they ran an editorial cartoon that 687 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 4: showed Gizel Pelico, the victim of the mass rape trial 688 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 4: that we'll probably talk about later. It was and it 689 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 4: was a satire of Emmanuel Macron taking advantage of the 690 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 4: French people by ignoring the results of the election that 691 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 4: took place over the summer. But it was drawn as 692 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:45,479 Speaker 4: the gang rape of Jazel Pelico. It's so terrible and 693 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 4: so for her to be like, I don't really want 694 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,960 Speaker 4: to say, I'm Charlie Man and but then in an 695 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 4: interview she didn't make reverence to that exactly. But there 696 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:03,360 Speaker 4: are a lot of reasons not to say it and 697 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 4: or not to identify oneself with that publication, and she 698 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,359 Speaker 4: also received a lot of online hate. There's also a 699 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 4: huge moral panic around the Hitjab, so the veil that 700 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,240 Speaker 4: Muslim women wear, and this goes back a long time, 701 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 4: but specifically in two thousand and four that's when they 702 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 4: made a loss. And you can't wear ostentatious religious signs 703 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 4: in a public education establishment. So in theory this is 704 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 4: not attacking any particular religion, but the idea of what 705 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,880 Speaker 4: constitutes ostentatious if you have a cross or a starr David, 706 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 4: is that ostentatious. And what this has meant come to 707 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:57,919 Speaker 4: me in practice is the exclusion gradually of more and 708 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 4: more women wearing veils from public space. And this is 709 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 4: a quite extreme interpretation of the way separation of church 710 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,880 Speaker 4: and state is written under the Constitution there. And I 711 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 4: should also know that this doesn't apply to nuns, because 712 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 4: that's a cultural garment. 713 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 3: And not a I love the they like specifics. 714 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 4: France was the only country to ban its Olympic athletes 715 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 4: from wearing a headscarf. Every year, there's a moral panic 716 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:37,359 Speaker 4: around the berkini, so the full body swimming outfit. And 717 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 4: then specifically in the last couple of years, there was 718 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 4: the abaya affair. So that's a traditional long garment that's 719 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,400 Speaker 4: worn in a number of Middle eastern North African countries. 720 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 4: And there was an elementary school that had an elegance day, 721 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 4: so the students were supposed to wear their nicest clothes. Well, 722 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,440 Speaker 4: for a lot of those students, that means they're traditional garments. 723 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 4: So there were young girls, you know, ten eleven showing 724 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 4: up in a bias long, beautiful and brighter dresses. And 725 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 4: this was seen as a sign of religious that it 726 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 4: was a religious garment. It's not particularly a religious garment, 727 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:24,320 Speaker 4: is more ethnic than religious, or geographically distributed than religious. 728 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,719 Speaker 4: While it is sometimes associated with modest dressing, it's also 729 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:36,360 Speaker 4: it's a long dress, and these girls were forced to 730 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,239 Speaker 4: take off their a bias and just be in like 731 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 4: their leggings, and it was super gross. And then there's 732 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 4: this explosion of there's like, oh, the abayah is banned 733 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,720 Speaker 4: in school. But then it's like, where does it stop 734 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,280 Speaker 4: being a long dress and start being in a bayah? 735 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 4: And there are all these examples of people being like, 736 00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,800 Speaker 4: so is this band and they're like, oh, that's horrible. 737 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 4: They're like, it's Gucci, like. 738 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:06,880 Speaker 2: A couple lot of money. 739 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 4: And then and then you get like Brigitte Macron doing 740 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,840 Speaker 4: a state dinner and she's dressed up to hear long dress, 741 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 4: sleeves down to here. Where's the difference there? But then 742 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 4: you get a situation where you've had students in middle 743 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 4: school having their skirts measured to make sure they're not 744 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 4: too long. So but at the same time you also 745 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,280 Speaker 4: have a public polemic against girls wearing crap tops to school. 746 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 4: And the amazing phrase that was I don't have the 747 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:49,799 Speaker 4: government minister who said it, but he said, all they 748 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 4: have to do is dress in a republican manner in 749 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,279 Speaker 4: the American sense, but like as good citizens. And it's like, 750 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 4: what on earth does that mean? How does how I 751 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,360 Speaker 4: dress and how much skin I show affect my ability 752 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 4: to be a good citizen. And then you also get 753 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 4: on mainstream television platforms you also get older men saying, 754 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 4: but girls that age should be showing their shapes, and 755 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 4: it's like for whom for whom sir. 756 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,400 Speaker 1: Ugh ow an actual gap? 757 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 4: So, and there was there's a book that came out 758 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,960 Speaker 4: that I think is sort of instructive here, and I 759 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,320 Speaker 4: don't think there's an English translation yet, but the title 760 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,240 Speaker 4: is always too much or not enough right, And it's about, uh, 761 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:50,800 Speaker 4: you know, the public discourse around women's dress, women's clothing, 762 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 4: but especially around young and teenage girl clothing as well. 763 00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 4: So and and there's also this really wonderful ecofeminist women 764 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,600 Speaker 4: with a political science background called Fatima I sc who 765 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,680 Speaker 4: wrote a book. She's written several books. One of them 766 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 4: the main one, is called for a Pirate Ecology, and 767 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,080 Speaker 4: she's that one is being translated. I don't know who's 768 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,000 Speaker 4: doing it, but I know that there is a translation 769 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,360 Speaker 4: in English that's happening. But she has talked about how 770 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 4: there's effectively this way in which you in which people 771 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 4: working class people of immigration background, especially if they have 772 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:35,720 Speaker 4: any signs of belonging to to especially to the Islamic tradition, 773 00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 4: are in many ways kept out of public spaces, and 774 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 4: especially when this comes to young people, young women in 775 00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,680 Speaker 4: terms of them not being allowed to dress how they want, 776 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 4: but also young men because they're perceived as a threat. 777 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,239 Speaker 4: And she's also talked about how like the environmental conditions 778 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,839 Speaker 4: and working class neighborhoods add to this idea that you're 779 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,800 Speaker 4: confined to your home because it's not safe or healthy 780 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,880 Speaker 4: to the outside. And she's talked about specifically what it 781 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 4: feels like her to be a mother who is visibly 782 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,840 Speaker 4: North African and Muslim, and the ways in which she 783 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:19,319 Speaker 4: can't show up for her children without being accused of 784 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 4: being an Islamicist. As in specifically, what this came out 785 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,240 Speaker 4: of the incident was that she's a vegetarian, her children 786 00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 4: are vegetarians. She's an ecologist, like background political scientist in 787 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,000 Speaker 4: political ecology, and she's like, I want my children to 788 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,320 Speaker 4: the option to eat a vegetarian meal in the public school. 789 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,120 Speaker 4: And she shows up and they say, what you're trying 790 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,240 Speaker 4: to do is to get halal into the public school. 791 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 4: And there's this whole controversy over whether it's legitimate for 792 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:04,399 Speaker 4: her as a North African woman to ask for what 793 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,840 Speaker 4: other French women can ask for, because there are public 794 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 4: schools where there is a vegetarian option, but those are 795 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 4: predominantly white, non Muslim. So there's that kind of situation 796 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:26,040 Speaker 4: where it's like, can you advocate for yourself a as 797 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:30,759 Speaker 4: a Muslim, as a North African or Arab woman. And 798 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,480 Speaker 4: there's also sort of I can't give you good data 799 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,640 Speaker 4: about this, but there is the sort of body policing 800 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:44,239 Speaker 4: and clothing policing. It's really intense for everyone, but it 801 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,279 Speaker 4: affects women specifically. As women. You have a situation about 802 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:51,680 Speaker 4: a decade ago where a socialist minister she'd been criticized 803 00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 4: for wearing jeans and a blazer to an official meeting 804 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 4: because that wasn't formal enough. So she's like, fine, I'm 805 00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 4: gonna put on a dress. And she wore this flowered 806 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,440 Speaker 4: like it was like a you know, Diane von Fursenberg 807 00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,359 Speaker 4: rap dress style whatever, like something ignore, and she went 808 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,480 Speaker 4: to speak in the National assembling was cat called. 809 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:12,520 Speaker 3: What yeah. 810 00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,800 Speaker 1: Oh. 811 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 4: And there have been like there have been men who've 812 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,080 Speaker 4: worn you know, something a little avnant garde and gotten 813 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,240 Speaker 4: made fun of but not cat call, not wolf whistled. 814 00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 4: And then there's also the idea because when we think 815 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,360 Speaker 4: of when we think of France, we think of fashion, 816 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 4: we think of very thin people. And there is what 817 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,719 Speaker 4: I don't think she came up with us. But recently 818 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 4: the author Louise Morrell was talking about the injunction to 819 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:47,160 Speaker 4: thinness and how as Westerners we live in a you know, 820 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,840 Speaker 4: we live in a very fat phobic society in general, 821 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,080 Speaker 4: but that it isn't just even people who are in 822 00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:59,560 Speaker 4: thin bodies are constantly being sort of reminded that they 823 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:04,480 Speaker 4: better know step out alone, like she for example, she 824 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,920 Speaker 4: was like, I've been in a thin body my entire life. 825 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,680 Speaker 4: I'm maybe heavier now than I was ever, but still 826 00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,880 Speaker 4: considered within a normal range in any other country, not France. 827 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,719 Speaker 4: And I spent two years eating nothing but clementines as 828 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 4: a teenager. Like that's not exclusive to France. But the 829 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,759 Speaker 4: sort of intensity in public spaces and the constant like 830 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,960 Speaker 4: advertisement of I mean, this is cranked up with social 831 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,840 Speaker 4: media everywhere in terms of like weight loss products. I 832 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,640 Speaker 4: mean I can't get on Instagram now without being advertised 833 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,839 Speaker 4: with zepic and everything else. But in terms of but 834 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,800 Speaker 4: it's it's been there for a really long time and 835 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 4: in a much in a very very visible way. 836 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:58,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is that is a lot. That is a lot, 837 00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:59,640 Speaker 1: And I know we're going to come back to some 838 00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,719 Speaker 1: of that at the end, but I did want to 839 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: ask you, just because I have taken many, many years 840 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 1: of French. It is a gendered language. And when you 841 00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:17,200 Speaker 1: mentioned that, you know this is also part of this conversation. 842 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 1: I just want to learn more about that. Can you 843 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 1: tell us how that it relates. 844 00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:29,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, so French is a gendered language. Every noun is 845 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:34,080 Speaker 4: either a masculine or feminine, and so in the English 846 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,920 Speaker 4: is not a heavily gendered language, but we do have pronouns. 847 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:42,160 Speaker 4: That's that our gender that's become a hot topic recently, 848 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 4: and in France it's not just pronouns, it's nouns and 849 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,440 Speaker 4: then all of the adjectives that agree with with all 850 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:54,720 Speaker 4: of those nouns. So there is some flexibility in this 851 00:57:55,080 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 4: because like if I say I am XYS, I have 852 00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,760 Speaker 4: to make a choice whether I'm going to gender those 853 00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,480 Speaker 4: down the line and how I'm going to do it, 854 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,360 Speaker 4: and so traditionally I would make all of it. Like 855 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:19,960 Speaker 4: if I said I am a you know, happy perfectionist, 856 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,680 Speaker 4: like like all of those things, I'd have to tack 857 00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:30,400 Speaker 4: on a feminine ending to those. And you can get 858 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,920 Speaker 4: around us a little bit if you say, because person 859 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,040 Speaker 4: as a noun is feminine, whether it's referring to a 860 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,360 Speaker 4: man or a woman, person is just feminine. So I 861 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,560 Speaker 4: could say, like I am a person who is, and 862 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 4: then all of them would be feminine and that has 863 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,960 Speaker 4: no reflection on my gender. But that requires a lot 864 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:52,240 Speaker 4: of gymnastics. There's one novel that did it really well. 865 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,360 Speaker 4: It's a novel called Sphinx by Angretta. There's a translation 866 00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,280 Speaker 4: in English that doesn't quite have the same oomph, but 867 00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,840 Speaker 4: it's a novel the two protagonists you can't tell what 868 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,080 Speaker 4: gender they are, like they It's managed to completely sides to 869 00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,320 Speaker 4: have this issue. But in general it's a quite a 870 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,520 Speaker 4: heavily gendered language, and it also has a governing body 871 00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,320 Speaker 4: of that language called the Academy Francis. That is a 872 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,720 Speaker 4: so when we think about dictionaries like you have the 873 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:23,840 Speaker 4: Oxford English Dictionary, Webster's Dictionary, whatever, these are primarily descriptive 874 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,840 Speaker 4: linguistic bodies that say, how are people using these words? 875 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,160 Speaker 4: Let's put this in the dictionary and so that people 876 00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:35,120 Speaker 4: know how to use how they are being used. The 877 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:39,560 Speaker 4: Academy Frances is prescriptive in that it says this is 878 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,160 Speaker 4: the word you should use for this situation. In this way, 879 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:47,280 Speaker 4: these are the rules of grammar. Uh, this is not 880 00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:55,480 Speaker 4: legally binding, but this is what sort of directs educational 881 00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:02,360 Speaker 4: policy and style guides and things like that. And they 882 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:07,800 Speaker 4: are very slow to change, and they are traditionally, up 883 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,240 Speaker 4: until the sixties, they were all men. They are still 884 01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:16,600 Speaker 4: mostly men. And this comes into play for a lot 885 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,120 Speaker 4: of reasons, and one of them is when it comes 886 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:26,000 Speaker 4: to professional nouns that are the names of professions, because 887 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,600 Speaker 4: traditionally you there was no question like if I said 888 01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:33,440 Speaker 4: I'm a professor, I'm a doctor. Those are like for 889 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,600 Speaker 4: a long time, only men were those things, so there 890 01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,360 Speaker 4: was no question like why bother having a different form. 891 01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:44,960 Speaker 4: But then the question comes up when women start occupying 892 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:49,360 Speaker 4: these positions. Are do I want to have the exact 893 01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:54,640 Speaker 4: same title as a man, which is one argument or 894 01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,280 Speaker 4: and that's what we've done in English pretty much when 895 01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,640 Speaker 4: we instead of say actress, we say actor, so everybody 896 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,640 Speaker 4: gets the same one. But or do I want to 897 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 4: make sure everyone knows I am a woman in that job, 898 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,680 Speaker 4: so that we can make it visible that there are 899 01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:18,360 Speaker 4: women in that job. And so in nineteen ninety eight 900 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,640 Speaker 4: there was a parliamentary rule change that said, Okay, any 901 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,960 Speaker 4: job you have in parliament, there's a feminine form that 902 01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,200 Speaker 4: we can use for that, and the Academy would occasionally 903 01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,320 Speaker 4: like come out with some very dismissive statement about this. 904 01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:38,360 Speaker 4: In twenty fourteen, they they put out a very wishy 905 01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:43,040 Speaker 4: washy statement where they described feminized profession names as barbarisms 906 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,200 Speaker 4: because they're like, there's no way to really do this 907 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,920 Speaker 4: within the rules of French so it comes up with 908 01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,840 Speaker 4: something really ugly. But they were like, well, if the 909 01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:59,480 Speaker 4: people involved really want this, then I guess sure, fine, whatever. 910 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,240 Speaker 4: And that was also the year where you had a 911 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:07,360 Speaker 4: very public dispute. So the person presiding the National Assembly, 912 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,120 Speaker 4: so not the French president, but the person who was 913 01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:14,480 Speaker 4: sort of organizationally in charge of the National Assembly was 914 01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:20,240 Speaker 4: a woman named Sandvien Messitier, and there was a conservative 915 01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:28,000 Speaker 4: deputy so legislator who insisted on calling her Madame lu President, 916 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:35,640 Speaker 4: so madam the masculine President, and she was like, no, man, 917 01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:42,320 Speaker 4: it is Madame la President. To you and he and 918 01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,640 Speaker 4: he kept going because he was like, no, the la 919 01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:51,080 Speaker 4: president is the president's wife, because traditionally these feminine forms 920 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:56,240 Speaker 4: were the wife of whatever, and I'm just following the 921 01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:00,880 Speaker 4: French Academy's rules. And he wanted to be fined because 922 01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,160 Speaker 4: what he was doing was reaching parliamentary procedure, because there 923 01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:05,600 Speaker 4: had been this circular that was like, no, in government, 924 01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,400 Speaker 4: we are feminizing the professions. And then in twenty seventeen 925 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,960 Speaker 4: finally there was a government circular that mandated the official 926 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:18,920 Speaker 4: use of feminized professions in any official document. So author 927 01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,200 Speaker 4: is one of those where it's like, are we going 928 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:26,560 Speaker 4: to tack on an e so it's utah or utah 929 01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:30,200 Speaker 4: with an E, or are we going to say have 930 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,800 Speaker 4: the tour tress like an actor actress and say uta 931 01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:42,240 Speaker 4: utris And so there's some sort of not confusion necessarily, 932 01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:44,480 Speaker 4: but it hasn't really been settled which one is in 933 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:48,040 Speaker 4: uniform use. And then you also have the situation where 934 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:53,160 Speaker 4: in a mixed group, masculine is considered to be the neutral. 935 01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:58,320 Speaker 4: So if I said men and women, then I would 936 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 4: use masculine additives on the line to refer to the 937 01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,920 Speaker 4: whole group. And the argument has often been like, well, 938 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,240 Speaker 4: that's just it's not really about gender. That's just how 939 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:07,920 Speaker 4: it's always been. It has not always been like that. 940 01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,800 Speaker 4: It's been like that since the sixteenth century. Before that, 941 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,080 Speaker 4: you actually had a lot of flexibility. Are you going 942 01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,680 Speaker 4: to use just the masculine? Are you going to use 943 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,000 Speaker 4: an adjective that agrees with the one that's closest in 944 01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,160 Speaker 4: this sentence? Are you going to use the adjective that 945 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,640 Speaker 4: agree like if there are more women than men, then 946 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:28,240 Speaker 4: you could use a feminine adjective like it wasn't There 947 01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,080 Speaker 4: wasn't until the establishment of the French Academy. There wasn't 948 01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,040 Speaker 4: an established usage by which you would only use the 949 01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,919 Speaker 4: masculine to represent the neutral. And a lot of times 950 01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,160 Speaker 4: people get around this by saying like if instead of 951 01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,600 Speaker 4: saying like welcome all, I'd be like, welcome all masculine 952 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:49,640 Speaker 4: and all feminine. But then you get two issues there 953 01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,280 Speaker 4: where you're like, well, you're separating them and that seems weird, 954 01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,200 Speaker 4: and also what about people who don't feel comfortable within 955 01:04:55,320 --> 01:05:00,160 Speaker 4: neither of those things. So you have an effort to 956 01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:06,880 Speaker 4: make to do what's called inclusive spelling, or that both 957 01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,640 Speaker 4: covers mixed groups, but It also covers non binary individuals 958 01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,120 Speaker 4: or people of indeterminate gender, like if you don't know 959 01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 4: whether a person is like if like the author of 960 01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:19,960 Speaker 4: this piece, you don't know whether it's a man or 961 01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:25,960 Speaker 4: woman or a non binary person. The French establoinisishment is 962 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:31,000 Speaker 4: so astonishingly hostile to this, so there are various ways 963 01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:32,840 Speaker 4: you can do it. There's been a lot of experimentation. 964 01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,800 Speaker 4: Are we going to say masculine ending period feminine ending? 965 01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,040 Speaker 4: Are you just going to say masculine ending, feminine ending? 966 01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:42,200 Speaker 4: Are you gonna say masculine ending slash feminine ending? What 967 01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,880 Speaker 4: are we going to do with this? It's sort of 968 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:51,080 Speaker 4: come down on the masculine ending period feminine ending when 969 01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,440 Speaker 4: you have a mixed group or and then there are 970 01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,320 Speaker 4: also when it comes to pronouns, like all as a pronoun. 971 01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:02,000 Speaker 4: So you have two t u s that's masculine, and 972 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,560 Speaker 4: then you have twot t o u t e s feminine, 973 01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,720 Speaker 4: and then you have a combined form that is in 974 01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,000 Speaker 4: more common use now among people who use the inclusive spelling, 975 01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:16,480 Speaker 4: which is tooste t o u S t e s 976 01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,000 Speaker 4: wouldn't seem like a huge problem for some people, it 977 01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:28,000 Speaker 4: very much is. Uh, the president specific Emanuel Macon specifically 978 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,520 Speaker 4: has been very vocal about how he wants to preserve 979 01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,160 Speaker 4: the traditional beauty of the French language, et cetera, et cetera. 980 01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:38,040 Speaker 4: But then you also have really interesting things going on 981 01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,360 Speaker 4: where you have people in the graphic design world who 982 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,000 Speaker 4: are working on and I can show you this. I 983 01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:43,760 Speaker 4: know it's an audio medium, but I just wanted to 984 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:51,920 Speaker 4: show you this. This is non binary typography. And so 985 01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,680 Speaker 4: this is from two people, one of whom I've met. 986 01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,560 Speaker 4: They're very lovely, so usually Bideaux and Camis, and they're 987 01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:04,280 Speaker 4: part of a collective called Bybi Binary and they make 988 01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,200 Speaker 4: these stensils, but they also make fonts that you can 989 01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,800 Speaker 4: plug into your word processor so you can type in 990 01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:18,480 Speaker 4: gender neutral. And they are also people who are the 991 01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:21,120 Speaker 4: first examples of people that I met who were really 992 01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:25,080 Speaker 4: good at pronouncing it the double endings, because it is 993 01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:26,960 Speaker 4: something you do have to get used to. It's not automatic, 994 01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:32,120 Speaker 4: but nothing is in language. And one of the issues 995 01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:34,520 Speaker 4: that you'll bring up with the inclusive spelling, they're like, well, 996 01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,880 Speaker 4: it's going to be harder for people with dyslexia. There's 997 01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:41,160 Speaker 4: been one study, a fairly large study, but just one study. 998 01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,560 Speaker 4: So far this lead neurodiversion people and specifically people learning 999 01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:50,680 Speaker 4: disabilities related to writing and reading and inclusive spelling, and 1000 01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,360 Speaker 4: with the exception of one font that was more difficult, 1001 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:59,720 Speaker 4: with enough preparation, like exposure to it, there was no 1002 01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:04,560 Speaker 4: statistically significant difference in their ability to read the inclusive 1003 01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:09,640 Speaker 4: spelling versus the non inclusive spelling. And then there's also 1004 01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,880 Speaker 4: the so in terms of pronouns, there was also a 1005 01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:14,800 Speaker 4: lot of back and forth about what do we want 1006 01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:18,160 Speaker 4: our gender neutral pronoun to be. It's kind of settled 1007 01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:25,640 Speaker 4: on yell I E L, so el is masculine, I 1008 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,000 Speaker 4: l L is feminine e l E and then yell 1009 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:36,599 Speaker 4: I E L. And between the survey and I think 1010 01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,040 Speaker 4: it was twenty twenty three showed that about five percent 1011 01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:45,720 Speaker 4: of French people between fifteen and twenty four identify as 1012 01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:50,960 Speaker 4: non binary. So this isn't nothing. And so there's a 1013 01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:55,240 Speaker 4: lot of pushback, a lot of backlash from politicians from 1014 01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:59,840 Speaker 4: the sort of traditional language community, but they are also 1015 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:02,479 Speaker 4: a lot of people who want to use these. 1016 01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:07,479 Speaker 1: I love that. I'm fascinated with language. So again you'll 1017 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,240 Speaker 1: have to come back and we'll talk more about this. 1018 01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,360 Speaker 1: And that brings us to the end of part one 1019 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:29,120 Speaker 1: of our interview with Gina. Like we said in part two, 1020 01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:31,960 Speaker 1: we're going to get into a lot more of the 1021 01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 1: current issues and including around like terfism in France, abortion, gingerbates, violence, 1022 01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,760 Speaker 1: so a lot of big topics, So look for that 1023 01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,519 Speaker 1: one next week. Make sure to listen. Thanks again to 1024 01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,800 Speaker 1: Gina for doing this, breaking this down for us, these 1025 01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:54,800 Speaker 1: huge questions, and special shout out to friend of the 1026 01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:59,040 Speaker 1: show Lauren who introduced us. Who is like, you know 1027 01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:02,360 Speaker 1: who you should talk to over on Simon Tea, I've 1028 01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:06,040 Speaker 1: got just the person. Well, listeners, if you have any 1029 01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:10,639 Speaker 1: thoughts about this or anything else, you can email us 1030 01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:12,960 Speaker 1: at Hello at stuff one Never Told You dot com. 1031 01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:15,679 Speaker 1: You can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff Podcasts, 1032 01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,720 Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've Never Told You. 1033 01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:21,160 Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We have a tea public store, 1034 01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:22,640 Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get wherever you 1035 01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,320 Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks it's always to our super producer Christina, 1036 01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:28,040 Speaker 1: our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you, 1037 01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:30,439 Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You 1038 01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:32,160 Speaker 1: is a production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts on 1039 01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:33,800 Speaker 1: my Heart radio. You can check out the heart Radio, 1040 01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,200 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or where you listen to your favorite shows.