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Speaker 1: Welcome to Hout of Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about the case for frugal hedonism with Annie Rasor Roland.

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Speaker 1: All right, So, jumbo shrimp, little giant, open secret, bittersweet.

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Speaker 1: These are all examples of oxymorons. And so many people

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Speaker 1: would hear the title of this episode and they'd be like,

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Speaker 1: frugality hedonism, those follow the same pattern. Those are also oxymorons.

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Speaker 1: But my guest today, Annie Raiser Roland, she would beg

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Speaker 1: to differ. She says they fit like peas in a pod.

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Speaker 1: And so Annie firmly believes that you can live an

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Speaker 1: excellent life without spending gobs of money, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: you might find more pleasure. You might get quite a

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Speaker 1: bit of joy out of your everyday existence if you

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Speaker 1: elect to take the fruit fruit goal heat in this path,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't involve the dreaded act of cu ponning.

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Speaker 1: So Annie, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: joining me today.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: And uh, anybody can tell who's listening for the first

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Speaker 1: two seconds, so you're not American. I'm so excited to

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Speaker 1: be talking with an Aussies.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I could have pigged that one up.

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Speaker 1: Gooday, Yes, And the scheduling was super interesting for this

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Speaker 1: one because you know, like you're usually sleeping when I'm

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Speaker 1: working in vice versa. But okay, first question out of

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Speaker 1: the gate is what do you like to sporge on?

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Speaker 1: What's your craft beer equivalent? You're trying to do smart

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Speaker 1: stuff with your money, but obviously there's things that are

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Speaker 1: worth splurging on in the here and now.

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Speaker 2: Definitely experiences of possessions pay some point. Last weekends, my

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Speaker 2: partner and I went on a tour of the underground

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Speaker 2: aquifers underneath the kind of historic town that I live in,

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Speaker 2: where you get in these dinky lit boats you sort

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Speaker 2: of ab sailed down these tunnels that go a kilometer underground,

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Speaker 2: and you know, these dinky little boats and paddle yourself

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Speaker 2: along canals that are undergrounds that used to supply the

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Speaker 2: town's drinking water through these limestone tunnels and it points.

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Speaker 2: You know, the guy tells you to switch your torch

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Speaker 2: off so that you're paleling along a pitch blackness because

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Speaker 2: it's undergrounded. Total silence, and talk about two and a

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Speaker 2: half hours, and we hear all about the history of

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Speaker 2: the aquifers, and you know the Irish engineer that established them,

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Speaker 2: who's suicide because no one believed him it was going

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Speaker 2: to work. But then right after he died, they built them.

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Speaker 2: And it's sort of all this dramatic story and discover

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Speaker 2: this whole network of tunnels underneath a city that is

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Speaker 2: that you've never known as there plus have this incredible

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Speaker 2: textural experience that is like nothing else that I've done before.

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Speaker 2: Or it's not even like going into a cave. It's

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Speaker 2: because you're in the boats and it's human made. Then

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Speaker 2: that's something that's going to feed into my dreams and

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Speaker 2: so on for ages. And even though I have to

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Speaker 2: confess I had a migraine when we went, and I

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Speaker 2: was almost going to counsel, the distraction of going there

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Speaker 2: was so interesting that I ended up still being really

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Speaker 2: happy we went. And that is partly why experiences are

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Speaker 2: so much more worthwhile than possessions, because even when something

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Speaker 2: goes wrong, and even if I had fallen out of

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Speaker 2: one of those dinky little boats and almost drowned, that

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Speaker 2: would have in the course of my life might have

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Speaker 2: taken a week, might have taken three months, that would

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Speaker 2: have become a valuable experience just because I get to

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Speaker 2: tell the story to people and I'd have the knowledge.

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Speaker 2: And even though it wasn't perfect because I had a

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Speaker 2: migraine and I was like, WHOA feeling pretty woozy like

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Speaker 2: trying to abseil down a kilometer underground here, the money

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Speaker 2: spent was still totally worthwhile because in profession with an

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Speaker 2: experience can still be a win because you overcame something.

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Speaker 2: Whereas you buy a set of rollerblines that have a

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Speaker 2: defect on the remote control, that imperfection is just straight

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Speaker 2: up bad. There's nothing good about that. You have to

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Speaker 2: fill out paperwork and try and get that remote control

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Speaker 2: fixed and replaced. So that's why it's splurging on experiences

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Speaker 2: for me will win out every single time.

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Speaker 1: I love too, that you're highlighting becoming a tourist in

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Speaker 1: your own town. I think there's so often we talk

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Speaker 1: about travel and we're like, we got to get out

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Speaker 1: and we got to go see the Great Pyramids of

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Speaker 1: Egypt or something like that. And while that does sound rad,

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Speaker 1: there are just so many things that most people can

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Speaker 1: do nearby where they live that remain unexplored, and so

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Speaker 1: I love that you're like, no, we're digging in in

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Speaker 1: the town where we live, and we're trying to get

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Speaker 1: the full experience of this place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so fun. I've done a lot of local tourism

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Speaker 2: stuff and it actually never fails to surprise me how

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Speaker 2: much because stuff there is right next to where you live.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So okay. So something interesting too, is like the

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Speaker 1: book that you wrote, The Art of Frugal Hedonism. You

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Speaker 1: wrote that with your co author like a decade ago,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know how it came on to my radar,

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Speaker 1: but then I picked it up and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is like, this is such an interesting take on frugality.

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Speaker 1: And I think so much of the time we talk

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Speaker 1: about pinching pennies, and there is some aspect of frugality

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Speaker 1: that involves that. But it sounds like part of the

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Speaker 1: impetus for writing this book too, was that your friends

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Speaker 1: were trying to figure out your secret for failing with money.

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Speaker 1: They're like, what's going on here, Annie, how are you

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Speaker 1: able to get by?

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Speaker 2: It was almost that case of writing a book by

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Speaker 2: popular demands, which I think is always one of the

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Speaker 2: best reasons to write a book. I never said that

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Speaker 2: to be an author, but all three books that I've

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Speaker 2: ended up writing have been just because it feels like,

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Speaker 2: where is this book? It needs to exist, and this

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Speaker 2: was definitely in that category, both my co author Adam

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Speaker 2: and I. I don't know whether it's freaky genetic wiring

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Speaker 2: or whatever it was, but we sort of hit our

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Speaker 2: mid to late twenties and discovered that while a lot

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Speaker 2: of our friends had bumped off their income brackets a

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Speaker 2: little bit and were spending more on heaps of discretionary

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Speaker 2: stuff like eating out and instead of secondhand clothes, buying

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Speaker 2: new clothes, and just slightly more expensive holidays and maybe

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Speaker 2: flashy bicycle if they or you know, a car upgrade

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Speaker 2: if they had cars. We weren't really changing any of

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Speaker 2: that stuff, and so we never had to feel stressed

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Speaker 2: about money. So it was this paradox. So they were

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Speaker 2: making more money, but they were feeling proportionally poorer, and

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Speaker 2: we were making a little bit more money and feeling

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Speaker 2: increasingly richer and richer, and I just kept nursing. My

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Speaker 2: savings were piling up in the bank. And people hate

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Speaker 2: hearing this, but neither of us ever think about money.

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Speaker 2: The only time I've ever kept a budget is for

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Speaker 2: the purpose of writing this book. Both Adam and I

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Speaker 2: kept a budget for the entire year, and because he's

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Speaker 2: a spreadsheet nerd, he kept on keeping that budget for

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Speaker 2: a whole year afterwards been enshrining with books just out

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Speaker 2: of curiosity, but we worked out that we spend about

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Speaker 2: a quarter of the Australian average, and that was without

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Speaker 2: even trying, and I think it's because we both just

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Speaker 2: had quite strong embedded principles of you always get the

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Speaker 2: second hand thing, you always make your own fun. You

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Speaker 2: basically never think of buying something as the way to

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Speaker 2: scratch that itch, to treat yourself or to kind of

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Speaker 2: feel refreshed, which I think is a really huge ploy

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Speaker 2: that advertising has successfully used to make us feel like

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Speaker 2: if you're feeling grab or if you feel like you

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Speaker 2: deserve a treat, or if you feel like life is

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Speaker 2: looking a bit shabby, then buy something. And so often

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Speaker 2: what we're actually actually craving when we have all those

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Speaker 2: urges for novelty, because humans are we're novelty seeking animals.

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Speaker 2: It's evolutionary to want to experience and have new things,

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Speaker 2: because that's how we expand our skill set and our

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Speaker 2: knowledge set and understand the world better. But advertising is

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Speaker 2: convinced us that new things come from purchasing. Whereas as

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Speaker 2: soon as you just replace that urge with ah, I'm

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Speaker 2: getting that wanting something new edge with a well, how

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Speaker 2: I might try and learn something new or go somewhere

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Speaker 2: new or talk to a random stranger on a bench

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Speaker 2: and have a new kind of a conversation with them

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Speaker 2: and I wouldn't usually talk to Then suddenly you're not

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Speaker 2: turning to, oh, I need to try the new cafe

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Speaker 2: up the road that got that great review on menu

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Speaker 2: lob or whatever, and you immediately saved money. And there's

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Speaker 2: are all sorts of tools like that that we were

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Speaker 2: using without realizing what we were doing. That we're meaning

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Speaker 2: we just didn't spend money.

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Speaker 1: You're making me think too, that we do the same

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Speaker 1: thing with consumption of entertainment and television and TV shows,

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Speaker 1: Like it's like that is another form of consumption that

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Speaker 1: we enter into or social media, right, and then that

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Speaker 1: leaves us all poorer from a relational standpoint. And I

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Speaker 1: think the thing that struck me too about you Annie

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Speaker 1: in reading the book and then also like just kind

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Speaker 1: of getting to know you a little bit more through

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Speaker 1: preparing for this episode, Like it doesn't seem like there's

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Speaker 1: any deprivation to this. No, You're like, no, actually, my

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Speaker 1: life is richer for this, which is why you chose

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Speaker 1: frugal hedonism. You're like, no, I have it all.

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Speaker 2: That is the reason for the oxymoron in the title

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Speaker 2: is that once we sort of looked around and looked

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Speaker 2: at our lifestyles compared with those of our friends, it

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, no, we are having way more fun

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Speaker 2: from not being stressed about money, and because there's all

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Speaker 2: these secret side effects of not spending so much money

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Speaker 2: that mean that you do actually have more fun. Simple

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Speaker 2: things like not having a car or using it to

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Speaker 2: get around as much just means that straight away, I'm fitter,

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Speaker 2: so I'm healthier. I get to experience it's done in

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Speaker 2: my face, the wind in my hair. I don't have

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Speaker 2: to like get stressed about when I'm having a giant

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Speaker 2: pledge on eating way too much at Christmas that it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's the waistline increasing a bit more for this year. Things.

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Speaker 2: Once again, just not using a car means that I

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Speaker 2: know all my neighbors because when I walk out the street,

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Speaker 2: I go part I'm the weird person in the bicycle

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Speaker 2: that you waste them all in their right yard while

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Speaker 2: they're all pulling out in their cars, And so I

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Speaker 2: have chats with them, and so my life is kind

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Speaker 2: of textually richer. And I exchange banter with them, and

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Speaker 2: I bring the bunches of access stuff from my garden

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Speaker 2: because I hate waste, which is another fabulous frugality strategy,

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Speaker 2: and by not choosing just to buy things all the

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Speaker 2: time if you need it. There's a case that we

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Speaker 2: describe in the book of going camping and needing a

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Speaker 2: cooler to go camping. I think you guys call them coolers.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, wait for the it. In Yep,

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Speaker 2: we call them eskis, which is weird. I don't know

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Speaker 2: where that one comes from, because I would never just

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Speaker 2: pop down to Walmart and buy a cooler for one

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Speaker 2: off trip. Then I go knock on a neighbor's door

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Speaker 2: up the street and say, hey, I know you guys

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Speaker 2: have heats of camping gear. Can I borrow your cooler

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Speaker 2: for the weekend? And I bring them a bunch of

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Speaker 2: stuff from my garden when I'm doing that, and they

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Speaker 2: end up having a really funny chat with their seven

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Speaker 2: year old daughter who worships me as a bit of

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Speaker 2: a weirdo mty up the street, and it just means

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Speaker 2: that that self reliance from not just turning to money

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Speaker 2: as the go to for everything, it creates a community

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Speaker 2: interdependence that is a lot richer and more interesting and

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Speaker 2: enables up all these avenues for sort of knowing people

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Speaker 2: in more complex ways. And there's so many examples like

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Speaker 2: that I can site whereby not using money as the

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Speaker 2: go to for everything is actute life enriching.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite quotes from the book, you say,

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Speaker 1: there is no better incentive for being frugal than having

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Speaker 1: passions you want to chase. What makes having passions that

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Speaker 1: you want to chase impactful and how does that lead

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Speaker 1: to more frugality in somebody's life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm quite an intense person and it's always been

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Speaker 2: really important to me to get to do what I

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Speaker 2: want to do, and at this point that's writing my

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Speaker 2: second novel. I've sort of moved away from nonfiction. When

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Speaker 2: I was younger, it was climbing volcanoes. I was just

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Speaker 2: obsessed with volcanoes. And even though I was living pretty

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Speaker 2: sort of teenage punk kind of a lifestyle at that point,

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Speaker 2: a lot of time out partying and carousing with friends.

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Speaker 2: They would all then head off to the kebab shop

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Speaker 2: after a long night out and spend half their week's

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Speaker 2: paypack because we all had terrible jobs that make nothing

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Speaker 2: at that point on some kebabs and I would just

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Speaker 2: have like a bag of almonds in my pocket because

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Speaker 2: I knew that I wanted to be able to afford

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Speaker 2: a plane ticket to Indonesia by the end of the

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Speaker 2: year to go climb volcanoes, and that motivation was big

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Speaker 2: enough and potent enough to keep me doing those little

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Speaker 2: things without any sense of resentment, because that immediate gratification

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Speaker 2: of just something convenient and easy was less important to

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Speaker 2: me than getting to chase those passions that I had

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Speaker 2: that were a bit longer term. And I think we

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Speaker 2: live in a culture at this point where there's something

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Speaker 2: kind of there's been solid to us that's kind of

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Speaker 2: cool to give in to the desirepher immediate gratification. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: binging TV shows is cool, and having Netflix and Chill

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Speaker 2: is cool, and picking out is cool, and splurging on

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Speaker 2: that thing that you just fell in love with in

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Speaker 2: a shop is cool. It's sort of seen as living

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Speaker 2: life with gay abandons and that it's that's kind of

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Speaker 2: sold to this really appetizing attitude. But it's a really

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Speaker 2: modern kind of a perspective. For most of history, people

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Speaker 2: have really admired just a little bit of restraint in

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Speaker 2: that capacity to work towards something that you're even more

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Speaker 2: excited about that isn't momentary gratification, but is like big scale, chunky,

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Speaker 2: full life gratification, like spending a couple of years climbing volcano.

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Speaker 1: I think climbing volcanoes experience eating omonds to be able

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Speaker 1: to climb volcano seems like well worthy trade off to me.

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Speaker 2: It worked out nicely, and it makes.

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Speaker 1: You an interesting person. It makes you an interesting person.

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Speaker 1: Like you have stories now to talk about volcano climbing.

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Speaker 1: I would rather listen to those stories than stories about

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Speaker 1: caaba beating, you know, like I just would. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: just I've.

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Speaker 2: Eaten nakababy talking about I didn't eat one hundred of them, yes, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I get both.

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Speaker 1: One of the One of the other things you talk

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Speaker 1: about in the book is the character traits of a

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Speaker 1: frugal hedonist, and you've talked about even identifying like literary

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Speaker 1: characters as role models for your life. Can you can

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Speaker 1: you like dig down on that a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting one. Australia is

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Speaker 2: a much more secular society than the US. You guys

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Speaker 2: have got a stronger presence of religion in culture, so

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Speaker 2: it's not quite as true for you guys, But for

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Speaker 2: a lot of our past is human beings. We had

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Speaker 2: religious role models to kind of inspire us to those

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Speaker 2: set of higher traits we wanted for ourselves. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not religious, so this like that doesn't apply to me,

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Speaker 2: and I'm fine with people who are. That's what they

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Speaker 2: still look to. But when we did away with having

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Speaker 2: those particular role models, those people that when you're going, ah,

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Speaker 2: life is hard, I'm a human being, it's messy. I

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Speaker 2: feel sort of tired and overwhelmed, and I just can't

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Speaker 2: be bothered being the person I want to be. Then

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Speaker 2: you would look to that saint or whoever it was

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Speaker 2: that epitomized all the values and the character traits that

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Speaker 2: you really thought with what you should be aiming for.

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Speaker 2: We don't have that so much anymore, and so it's

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Speaker 2: really important as humans to have role models and characters

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Speaker 2: you find inspirational. But when you're having all those rich

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Speaker 2: human moments that are so inevitable in the giant, crazy

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Speaker 2: mess of life, to bring you back to how you

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Speaker 2: actually want to be and how you want to live.

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Speaker 2: And so I was being a greater as a teenager

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Speaker 2: effort and continuing, and I was really into books that

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Speaker 2: had characters that sort of had all this gritten tenacity

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Speaker 2: in the face of hardship. Like I loved reading about

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Speaker 2: Arctic explorers, and you know, they would have their Christmas

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Speaker 2: party where they just date a frozen Mars bar spread

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Speaker 2: with some toothpastes, is there Christmas pudding and pretendence after

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Speaker 2: dinner mints and sang carols and like melted snow and

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Speaker 2: put one drop of rum in it at each to

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Speaker 2: pretend they were having Christmas cocktails. I loved all that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing, And you know, I read Old John

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Speaker 2: Steinberck and so on. I was so taken with how

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Speaker 2: people had just found a way to have fun in

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Speaker 2: the face of adversity and limited physical means and material means.

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Speaker 2: And just in the same way that when religion was

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Speaker 2: so strong in society that when you're having those weaker moments,

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Speaker 2: like you go back and you rewrite, read the appropriate

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Speaker 2: If you're Christian, you're they appropriate Bible chapter and that goes, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's right, that's that's more how I want to be,

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Speaker 2: and you feel that strength come back into you of

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Speaker 2: that's why I'm doing this and that's why I want

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Speaker 2: to live. This way is having when you're surrounded by

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Speaker 2: advertising role models who basically or be like a Kerdashian

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Speaker 2: and have a private jet, and don't you really want

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Speaker 2: to roll ex Then you've got to. You can't just

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Speaker 2: block that stuff out because it's so pervasive and it

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Speaker 2: gets under our skin because there's really well people paid

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Speaker 2: people being very clever in how they design those ads.

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Speaker 2: To get under us skin, you have to have counter

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Speaker 2: role models and having like literary role models and so

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Speaker 2: on that you have pinned down or even a grandparents

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Speaker 2: or someone that it was like, oh, they had nothing

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Speaker 2: and they knew how they have so much fun in

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Speaker 2: life and they hadn't made sparkling witch and they could

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Speaker 2: make a meal out of it, covered with nothing but

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Speaker 2: a bull, a string and a bone in it. And

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Speaker 2: coming back to those characters again and again as an

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Speaker 2: inspiration is a really great way to counteract that mass

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Speaker 2: cultural advertising message. That we get that you live life

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Speaker 2: life well by doing this all this buying stuff, and

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Speaker 2: you go, oh no, you live life well by being

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Speaker 2: like that Arctic explorer who could sing songs for seven

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Speaker 2: hours straight on a mug of snowmelt with one drop

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Speaker 2: of rom in it and a slice of miles.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's one of those things that Scrooge learns in

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Speaker 1: a Christmas Carol as he goes back and he's looking

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Speaker 1: at his younger self and really old fezi wig, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like, what a cool dude who is making

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Speaker 1: the party rock for his young apprentices, And like when

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Speaker 1: he's asked by the ghosts like, well, but what did

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Speaker 1: it take for him to make this happened? And he's like, gosh,

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Speaker 1: I guess not much. Like right, it's a paltry party,

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Speaker 1: but it meant a lot to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: And part of that is like the vibe you bring

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Speaker 1: to it, right, not having the fanciest accouterments. And one

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Speaker 1: of the other things you talk about too in the book,

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Speaker 1: which I was so impressed by, you said that we

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Speaker 1: tend to appreciate everything more if we adopt a frugal

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Speaker 1: hedonism mindset, and you gave the example maybe this was elsewhere,

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Speaker 1: but you said, like biking in the rain makes you

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Speaker 1: enjoy a warm shower, More like I ran in the

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Speaker 1: freezing cold this morning, and it made me enjoy my

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Speaker 1: warm shower. And there's something about, right, the kind of

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Speaker 1: maybe slightly seemingly painful decision that you take as a

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Speaker 1: frugallite that makes you enjoy the conveniences that you take

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Speaker 1: for granted, you don't take for granted in the same way.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely funnily enough, we're going to bring this one back

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Speaker 2: to religion again because that is something that a lot

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Speaker 2: of religious societies do really well, is that they have

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Speaker 2: safe periods of deprivation and fasting as a classic one,

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Speaker 2: you know, And part of that is just historically it

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Speaker 2: was just to accommodate for times of year where maybe

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Speaker 2: there wasn't much food around, but it was also to

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Speaker 2: keep you really loving what you did have when you

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Speaker 2: have it. And the term I kind of liked to

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Speaker 2: use is like setting fat against lean, is that you

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Speaker 2: intentionally just kind of go for a sufficiency for a

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Speaker 2: lot of the time. So you go, yeah, I just

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Speaker 2: had you know, pretty plain steam vegetables for lunch and

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Speaker 2: with a bit of olive oil on them and half

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Speaker 2: a count of beans, and it was tasty, it was healthy,

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Speaker 2: it was cheap, it was good. But that meant that

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Speaker 2: when I then had a dinner that was like this

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Speaker 2: decadent bull of lingering you with clams on it or whatever,

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Speaker 2: that just tasted doubly amazing. Is if you'd had a

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Speaker 2: really lunch, that dinner wouldn't have tasted as amazing. We

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Speaker 2: all know that that's how it rolls, and it's so simple,

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Speaker 2: and yet it's something that we ignore a lot, even

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Speaker 2: though it's basically one of the biggest ways to heighten

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Speaker 2: your pleasure experience in life. Is things do not feel hedonistic.

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Speaker 2: If you're living the higher life all the time, you've

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Speaker 2: got to like set up that contrast. You do the

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Speaker 2: hard days work digging in the garden and get all sweaty,

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Speaker 2: and that beer that you drink after you've done that

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Speaker 2: tastes about six times it's good. Is if you've just

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Speaker 2: been mooching around the house and then drank a beer.

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Speaker 2: We all know that's fit, and yet we don't think

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Speaker 2: to exploit it intentionally that much. I'm sure anyone who's

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Speaker 2: listening has been camping knows how when you get back

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Speaker 2: from camping, like having a hot shower, it seems like

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Speaker 2: so luxurious.

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Speaker 1: Or if you've been eating those meal in bags, like

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Speaker 1: the first meal that you eat when you get home,

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Speaker 1: you're like, you talk about it at night with your friends,

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Speaker 1: about the first meal with you.

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Speaker 2: I remember, yeah, yeah, yeah, And this is an uncouth comparison,

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Speaker 2: but I'm sure he said. The listeners heard of the

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Speaker 2: market decide it's that it's that principle of if you're

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Speaker 2: always seeking the highest level of pleasure, that you just

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Speaker 2: have to It's called the hedonic treadmill. There's actually a

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Speaker 2: name for it. Is that the more convenience and high pleasure,

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Speaker 2: satiation satiating experiences that you load yourself with, the less

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Speaker 2: you enjoy them. So you actually have to implement a

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Speaker 2: bit of that fat and lean principle. And plus it's

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Speaker 2: fun to do, especially if you do it as an experiment.

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Speaker 2: I'm a huge fan of experiments. They make something that

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Speaker 2: could feel like deprivation into a bit of a game

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Speaker 2: and a full life flavor. And so and as he'ps

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Speaker 2: to build the YouTube about this kind of stuff, it's

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Speaker 2: spending to say a whole week where you go, we're

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Speaker 2: going to try and live off just what's in the

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Speaker 2: pantry for this week, and not only is that a

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Speaker 2: fine and interesting experiment, and you eat some weird things

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Speaker 2: you never would have eaten before, you get to tell

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Speaker 2: your friends about it, you learn new skills, and then

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Speaker 2: when you eat, you save a bunch of money. And

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Speaker 2: then at the end of that week, whatever you eat

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Speaker 2: tastes amazing.

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Speaker 1: After the first grocery run.

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Speaker 2: And you probably actually find that when you do that

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Speaker 2: first grocery run, you don't splurge in the way that

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Speaker 2: you imagine you're going to because you've recalibrated yourself to

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Speaker 2: something simple a seeming really enjoyable. So perhaps you know,

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Speaker 2: you might have been fantasizing you were going to buy

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Speaker 2: like ten types of Ben and Jerry's when you went

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Speaker 2: to the shop after that, but instead you just go, oh, man,

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Speaker 2: I just want to buy like the best mango they

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Speaker 2: have in the shop, because that's going to be so amazing. Yeah,

432
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: And it's a really neat little mechanism to play with.

433
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: Is just Okay, I'm gonna I'm going to just live

434
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: a little lane now, and that's going to make me

435
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: really appreciate this thing that I'm working up to and

436
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: not to view that as deprivation, but to view it

437
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 2: as I kind of dance that you do to keep

438
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: all of your pleasure receptors more live to pleasure rather

439
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: than dulling them by just constantly giving them what they want,

440
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: and definitely saves you a lot of money.

441
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, I got more I want to

442
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: get to with you any including I want to talk

443
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: about fake frugalism and how not all frugality is created equally.

444
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that and more right after this. So

445
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: I'm talking about any ragel Rolind, We're talking about fruital hetonism.

446
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm curious to any like you you mentioned looking back

447
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: to grandparents, how did they treat money? Maybe that can

448
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: be inspirational when we do look back in history. Basically

449
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: everyone listening to this podcast is historically rich by time standards,

450
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: but also by just kind of worldwide standards. And even

451
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: if you were to ask somebody, hey, would you want

452
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: to take a time machine to live back in the

453
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, almost everyone would say no, thanks, Like it's

454
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: much better now. There is just more abundance. So how

455
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: do we use that, maybe as that reality, not as

456
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: a tool of shame? But maybe to I think part

457
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: of what you're getting at is lower expectations, just being like,

458
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: I don't think, how do I use that to help

459
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: me realize I don't need as much as I had

460
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: I did.

461
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: I'm sure your history teacher tells you this in school,

462
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 2: is that knowing about history actually gives us more power

463
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: in the present. And understanding that people didn't always have

464
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: as much as we have and yet manage to have

465
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 2: a really good time is potent because it makes you

466
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: realize that we reset our expectations about what counts as

467
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 2: normal with every generation, or more than every generation, even

468
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: every five years. You know, a very mean example I'm

469
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: going to use right now that will make every single

470
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: person listening cringe is probably twenty five years ago, no

471
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: one expected to just grab a takeaway coffee every day

472
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: and carry that around with them. Maybe not just one,

473
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: maybe three over the course of the day. If you're

474
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: really dysfunctional, we could be looking at five. And because

475
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: that wasn't on our radar as this thing we just

476
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: all expected to have, no one felt like life was

477
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: any more rubbish than not having that coffee. It just

478
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: wasn't part of what we had normalized and Recognizing that

479
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: what you normalize is really arbitrary is a really powerful

480
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: thing because it means you can go, well, why normalize

481
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: myself to this set of expectations When I could say,

482
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: bringing up the nineteen fifties again, say wow, if I

483
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: lived in the nineteen fifties, I would feel like the

484
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: richest person in town at the moment. Like I have

485
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: a washing machine, I have a refrigerator, I have a television,

486
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: I have car. I have two spare rooms in my

487
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: house that have nothing in them but a foosball set

488
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: a beanbag, Like it's crazy how much a lot of

489
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: us have compared to all of human history. And number one,

490
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: that enables gratitude and appreciation, but it also makes you

491
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: realize that all of that stuff that may be you

492
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: thought you still needed, you probably really don't, and that

493
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: we are actually living like not just kings, but kind

494
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: of rulers of entire nations in the perspective of a

495
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: lot of history. At this point.

496
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: I think Jerry Seinfeld has a joke about French kings

497
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: and how we're living better than French kings these days,

498
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: and I think that's that's true, like that they still

499
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: had to go to the bathroom outside or whatever. Right,

500
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: I mean, like we have indoor.

501
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: Plumbing, so terrible gentle hygien Yeah, and it's very freeing

502
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: to help you step outside of that mindset of poverty

503
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: that it's so easy for us to get into when

504
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: we feel like, oh, but this other person has this

505
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: thing I don't have, or life would feel easier or

506
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: better if I had that thing, And it just lets

507
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: you step outside that mindset and say, oh, I have

508
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: so much. I have so much. And it really is

509
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: all about context, which is hilarious. Like it's hilarious that

510
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: we're that easily suckered into just normalizing whatever's going on

511
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: around us as what is required for basic contempment.

512
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: What is fake frugalism? Because I mentioned the intro, we're

513
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: not going to talk about couponing, and there are some

514
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: strains of frugalism that sound far less appealing than the

515
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: one you're describing here. So what's fake frugalism? Why do

516
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: you hate it?

517
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? The secret agenda behind this book that I am

518
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: a raging environmentalist, mostly for pretty selfish reasons in that

519
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: I just love hiking and being in the natural world

520
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: and are like, you know, to me true hedonism is

521
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: swimming in rivers and lakes and so on without catching

522
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: weirds diseases from them. I'd like the world to stay

523
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: that way if possible. And yet I'm very aware that

524
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: people are tired and being told to not buy things

525
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: and not consume as much for the sake of being good,

526
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: because it makes you feel like a martyr. And once

527
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: I kind of worked out that not consuming as much

528
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: not only will help us stay the planet and people

529
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: those nice rivers and lakes that you can swim in

530
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: without catching diseases, but not consuming as much is also

531
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: really fun in the long run. I guess it became

532
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: important to distinguish between that kind of saving money where

533
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: you buy the most rubbish stuff because it's really cheap,

534
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: and you buy it from a big box store where

535
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: they don't care who made it, and maybe you do

536
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: save coupons, and there's no sense of the chain of

537
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: impact on the world behind that thing you've bought. And

538
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: so to me real for again, reality has to be

539
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: thinking about not just making things better for yourself, but

540
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: making things better for the whole ecosystem, both the human

541
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: ecosystem and the natural ecosystem that we live in. Because

542
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: that is actually true hedonism.

543
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: If we're talking about like the quote unquote frugal person

544
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: might own twelve jackets that all cost twelve dollars. But

545
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: you're saying, I guess maybe the frugal hedonist might own

546
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: two jackets, and they might cost a lot more than

547
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: twelve dollars, but their higher quality and you don't need

548
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: as many actually to get by. Is that a good example.

549
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: That's a pretty good example, although I'd call you on

550
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 2: one aspect of that is that the frugal hedonists probably

551
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: would still own two jackets that only cost twelve dollars,

552
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: but they'd be really good quality jackets and that came

553
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: from a thrift store. Okay, Yeah, they kind of had

554
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 2: some fun outings with friends trolling thrift stores until they

555
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: found those jackets. And I'm just going to dive inm

556
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: while we're talking about thrift stores, because second buying secondhand

557
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 2: stuff is gold. People once they get into a kind

558
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: of frugality mindset and also environmentally conscious mindset, can really

559
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: easily be pulled down that tunnel of I have to

560
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 2: buy the really expensive ecologically responsible option. But while that's

561
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: a great option and it's great to support some of

562
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 2: those businesses that are coming up with those alternatives the

563
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: least environmentally damaging option and the cheapest is always going

564
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: to be the thing that already existed that would have

565
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: maybe become a landfill, going to become trash if you

566
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: didn't buy it. So use that Facebook marketplace to get

567
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 2: your secondhand stuff. Stuff with neighbors. I've got friends that

568
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: host an amazing clothes swap night once a year where

569
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: everyone brings all the clothes they don't wear, and it

570
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: brings a mirror if they can, and something to kind

571
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 2: of actors and make shift change room, although everyone else

572
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: a bit a bit naked by the stand because you

573
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: can't be bothered hiding behind the screen. And you try

574
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: and all the clothes and feel to and you come

575
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: away with a whole new set of clothes, and you

576
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: end up with some really good quality stuff that is

577
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: going to last you ages. And you get all the

578
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: fun of that event, and you get the novelty of

579
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: having new clothes. It's like it's like a triple win,

580
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 2: a good ripple win right there. So yes, quality definitely,

581
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 2: but secondhand is kind of like a get out of

582
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: jail free card because you're having so little expenditure and

583
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: environmental impact. When you buy something secondhand, that means you

584
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: don't have to agonize over, oh can I afford this?

585
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: You know, really well locally made out of rainforest friendly

586
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: cotton T shirt is like, no, I just got this

587
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 2: secondhand one that like would have ended up probably in

588
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 2: landfille if I had bought it, So that didn't do

589
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: any of those things.

590
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: One of the other things you highlight too, is that

591
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: people are just so dang busy, right, and so busyness

592
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: just having too much on our schedule often inhibits our

593
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 1: ability to be frugal. So is that what's the solution

594
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: to that?

595
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: Though?

596
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: Like, what would you say to somebody who's like, I'm

597
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: just too busy. I need the Instacart delivery, I need

598
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: the I need all these services, and I need to

599
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: pay more for these different, these different expenses in my

600
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: life because I'm just kind of like going on.

601
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a chicken and egg kind of

602
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: conundrum that one, because their aspects of being more frugal

603
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: that you need more time to do, There's no two

604
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: ways about that, Like just you know, cooking more home

605
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: quot meals. Then if you're more frugal, you don't have

606
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: to work as much, and that really is true. Like

607
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: my partner, when I met them, probably five years after

608
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: publishing this book, was working a full time job, and

609
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: it took about a year of us hanging out in

610
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: him sort of taking on some of my habits to

611
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: cut down to three days a week because he was like, oh,

612
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: I just don't actually need half as much money as

613
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: I thought I needed. And I wasn't even trying to

614
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: indoctrinate him intentionally. I just kind of rubbed off in

615
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: my habits. Some people may love working a lot and

616
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 2: be really passionate about their jobs, so that obviously doesn't

617
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: apply to them in that case, But then they probably

618
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: those people probably aren't needing to pay for as many

619
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: of those kind of discretionary expenditures that we use to

620
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: cheer ourselves up and so on, so they're probably not

621
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: spending as much money. It's really good if you're really

622
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: busy to just do a bit of a life audit

623
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: and pick those couple of little money savers that you

624
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: feel like you can build in the time for like, Okay,

625
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: I spend thirty dollars a week on takeaway coffees and

626
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: that's significant. It actually takes me very little time to

627
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: just make up a big pot of cold brew one

628
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 2: day a week and pour it into five little jars

629
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: that I've saved up from my leftover pasta sauce or

630
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: whatever it is, and take that in the car with

631
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: me each morning. Just little changes like that. So the

632
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 2: low hanging fruit time wise, that can really save people

633
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: a lot of money. And then I find that people

634
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 2: get a little bit addicted to those tiny life acts

635
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 2: like that, and once they see how much one can

636
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: save them, it's snowballs and they sort of want to

637
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: do another one or they will go, well, my gym

638
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: membership costs me x amount of money because I have

639
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: signed up for you know, the gold option, but I

640
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: hardly ever use all the pilates classes and stuff. I

641
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: basically just go do or run on the treadmill twice

642
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 2: a week. So I'm going to cut it back to

643
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: that option, and then I'm going to once a week

644
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: because that's more realistic. Do a pilates video at home,

645
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: like a free YouTube Palladius video at home and go well,

646
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: that was actually more realistic for my time capacity, And

647
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: I've just saved myself thirty bucks a month or whatever

648
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: it is. So you just work out those little things

649
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: that are realistic for you to do it within a

650
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 2: busy life, and that are those low hanging fruit, and

651
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 2: then you know once you've been doing that for six months,

652
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: because changing habits is always hard. Brains like to save calories,

653
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: and changing habits use this more calories than doing exactly

654
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 2: what you've always been doing. So there's always that sort

655
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 2: of grinding of the gears for the first little bit

656
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: of any change of habits. Get through that bit. Six

657
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: months later or three months later, go well, what's another

658
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: low hanging fruit. I can see that maybe I could

659
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 2: shift here that might give me a tiny bit more

660
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,479
Speaker 2: time or not take up too much time and save

661
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: me an amount of money that's disproportionate to that.

662
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 1: You talked about the influence of advertising on our lives.

663
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: But then there's also the reality that we like to

664
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: convey certain things about ourselves by the possessions that we own,

665
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: by what we wear, whether it's our home and let's

666
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: do a fifty thousand dollars kitchen rhino, because when we entertain,

667
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be nice if this place looked a little

668
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 1: bit classier or a certain kind of genes or even

669
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: just the kind of like coffee you drink. Sometimes that

670
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: is something you're trying to state something to the people

671
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: around you. How nefarious is that? How impacted you think

672
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: that is by advertising? But then also, let's say intrinsically,

673
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: I really like this thing, and I do think it

674
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: maybe is a little reflective. Let's say of who I

675
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: am like I grew stash and one of my friends said,

676
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: you look more like yourself than you've ever looked before.

677
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: And it's really funny. It's like it was false advertising before,

678
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: I guess, But now that I have a mustache, people

679
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: think I'm a little weirder, which is actually true. So

680
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: some of those things really do like put off something

681
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 1: to the world. Yeah, talk about maybe how you would

682
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 1: help somebody think through what's the procession signal about them.

683
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 2: This is the question that's come up to me before

684
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: and interviews, and it's when I find particularly hard to

685
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: answer because I am a knee jerk rebel. I was

686
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: made that way. I'm just cut from that cloth. So

687
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 2: if someone tells me I should have something or should

688
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: do something, my first instinct is no, I want to

689
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: I want to look behind that screen and see if

690
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: I actually really want that, I'm not going to be

691
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: your soccer. So it's it's actually very hard for me

692
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: to get into the mindset of people who approach that

693
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 2: that kind of situation differently. But I think it's really

694
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: comforting to remind ourselves that if you look around at

695
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 2: friends you've got and who you admire and are impressed by,

696
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: it's generally not to do with how flash their kitchen

697
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: upgrade is. It's to do with how well they tell

698
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: a story or how well they listen when you're offloading

699
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 2: about something that happened to you that day that was

700
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 2: really hard for you. That if you do feel insecure

701
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: about that stuff, talk about like be open about that,

702
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 2: and you'll bring people on side. Like I've had people say, oh,

703
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: you know, we were kind of thinking we should renovate

704
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: when we moved in, but frankly, we just decided the

705
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: house is pretty good as it is, and it's just

706
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: not worth for money or the house. We'd rather spend

707
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: it on better things. And you say that to someone

708
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,439
Speaker 2: and that helps them shift their mindset and go, yeah,

709
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 2: that's actually a legitimate life choice to make. That option

710
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: has just been opened up to me as a way

711
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 2: of thinking, and you give them a gift by saying

712
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: that to them, and you get yourself out of being

713
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: judged for not having trying to keep up with the joneses.

714
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: So kind of transparency is actually an underrated tool within

715
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: that situation. Or you know, I used to work in

716
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: fashion shops for years and there was a steat of

717
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 2: kind of lifestyle behaviors that lots of my coworkers would

718
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: engage in that I just wasn't really interested in spending

719
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: the money on. And they would tease me for having

720
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: my little jar of leftover lunch that I would bring,

721
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 2: and they'd be going up to get like you know,

722
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: the newest forget from the delic test and up the

723
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 2: street or whatever, and they call me swamp girl. But

724
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: I just leaned into that and I got my swamp

725
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 2: girl lunch boy and mom enjoying my little swamp girl lunch. No,

726
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: I don't want none of you ever get and have

727
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 2: a sense of humor about yourself and that that stuff

728
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 2: about maybe not keeping up with certain standards becomes less

729
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: intense and feels less important. Plus it really, I really

730
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 2: do think it is a gift that you can give

731
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 2: to other people it's because people can feel a bit

732
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: panicky about how pressure they feel to keep up with

733
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: certain lifestyle standards, and when you show them an alternative,

734
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: it's actually quite a relief to a lot of people.

735
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: I actually just read an article this morning because you know,

736
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 2: our publishers and thus linked to when the book gets

737
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: mentioned in various online articles and so the one occasionally,

738
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: and it was an article about someone saying that this

739
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: book could really appreciate their life. And she started instead

740
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: of because she was on a really tight budget for

741
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: a period trying to buy a house, and that she

742
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 2: had started just inviting all her friends for what instead

743
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 2: of brunch. She's like, it is like it's the anti

744
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: brunch walk, and that her friends had all confessed one

745
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: by one that they were so grateful for the anti

746
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: brunch walk because it meant that they didn't have to

747
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: worry about that extra chunk of like paying for brunch

748
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 2: can be quite an expensive thing, and that they actually

749
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: had a better time going for a big, long walk

750
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: together than going out for brunch. And she gave them

751
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,959
Speaker 2: a gift by offering them that low spending, frugally hedonistic alternative.

752
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: And you can kind of, yeah, you give the people

753
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: around you a little present when you say, like, okay,

754
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: keeping up with these standards is not strictly actually necessary.

755
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've traded a lot of my relational time from

756
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: getting beers at local pub to going for runs or hikes.

757
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: And it's like, I have better conversation. I have really

758
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: actually righteous you really do. It's so much better than

759
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,479
Speaker 1: at a noisy bar grabbing beers and and so yeah,

760
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: it saves you minut at the same time, and.

761
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: You feel buzzed afterwards.

762
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: Right, different kind of buzz that's right, that's right. Or

763
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: just a few more questions I want to get to

764
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: with you any including how do frugal heatonists think about

765
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: investing for the future. We'll talk about that in just

766
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: a sec. All right, we're back and still talk with

767
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: Annie raise your roling talking about frugal hedonism, which I

768
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: just love that combo of terms. And I love it

769
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: when somebody takes something turns it on its head, something

770
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: that has, at least in the last twenty twenty five years,

771
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: it seems like it's been castigated, right, Like we talk

772
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: about frugality like it's yeah, I guess if you have

773
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: to to get by, sure, but to make it like

774
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: a superpower. That's that's what you're doing, Annie, And maybe

775
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, can you offer some practical ways to

776
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: spend less too? If somebody's like, all right, give me

777
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 1: like some of that that meat and potatoes kind of changes,

778
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: I can make. One of the things that I've seen

779
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: you suggest is like not buying drinks, and you're not

780
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: just talking about avoiding alcohol.

781
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: No, it's really interesting. It wasn't until doing the research

782
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: for the book that I actually walked around about twenty

783
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: different venues in my hometown. I looked at sort of

784
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: everything from high end to low end, and looked at

785
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: how much drinks cost in proportion to a meal on

786
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 2: each of those menus, and often they're running at about

787
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: half of the cost of the meal. So you know

788
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: that juice that you have along with your sandwich is

789
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: going to set you back about half the cost of

790
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: what the sandwich does. Or at the really high end restaurant,

791
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: the bottle of wine is often half as much as

792
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: what you pay for the total meal tab, or even

793
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 2: just a soda can literally, when it's an inner restaurant

794
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: or a cafe, be half the cost of the bottle

795
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: of fur that you're ordering whatever it is, so again

796
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: low hanging fruit. You might want to occasionally get a

797
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: drink if you really really feel like one, but so

798
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: often it's just an automatic default thing is like I

799
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: should order a drink to go with my meal. You

800
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: can just ask for water. That is, that is a

801
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 2: viable option, and it stays an enormous amount of money

802
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: to do that. It means that on those eating out

803
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 2: experiences that the bill is really like two thirds as

804
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: much every single time if you go no, I'm just

805
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 2: not going to have the soda or I'm not going

806
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: to have the orange juice or whatever it is. The

807
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: flip side of that is to actually use drinks in

808
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: liu of buying a meal, because we all love that

809
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: feeling of sitting down somewhere public and drinking in the world,

810
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: watching passes by, sitting at a cafe table at the

811
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 2: town square and watch it, watching the world happen around you.

812
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 2: But instead of going, well, I need to go for

813
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 2: a full sit down meal, say I'm just going to

814
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: have that one expresso Italian style, you know, and sit

815
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 2: there and sip it really really slowly and make that

816
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: really work for me, and that will be way cheaper

817
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 2: obviously than buying the croissants and the juice and the expresso.

818
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 2: Go No, I'm just I'm just going to really stay

819
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: with this expresso and make it last. Other really low

820
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 2: hanging fruit for a lot of people how much they drive.

821
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: And I know this can be a bit different in

822
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 2: American cities because there's a lot of places where it's

823
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: really hard to get around without driving. And that's true

824
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 2: to a large extent in Australia too, but we've got

825
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: a lot of slightly more European setup where you can

826
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: get around quite easily without driving. But gas is really expensive.

827
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 2: And if you try and just consolidate your trips together

828
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: and go, well, do I actually need to pop to

829
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 2: the store again, or can I make something from what

830
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: I've got at home? Or can I stable that up

831
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: for that once a week grocery run where I'm also

832
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 2: going to the pharmacy and going to the pool and

833
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 2: doing this other thing. Make that like a once a

834
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: week car run, you know, And get yourself an electric

835
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: bicycle if you can have it. They are I think

836
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: they should be issued free to everyone at age thirteen.

837
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: Maybe I love mine. Yeah, I don't have a car.

838
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 2: I use the electric bike. It's got huge panniers on it.

839
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: It does everything I needed to do, and I can

840
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 2: borrow a car from a friend if I really need one,

841
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 2: or hire one. But trips under like five minutes. You

842
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 2: should not be using a car unless you've got one leg. Really,

843
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 2: that is just burning up money and you can walk

844
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: down those three blocks and get that thing that you

845
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: were going for. I always laugh when I go to

846
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: the local park each morning for a big walk. I've

847
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 2: lived near a nice reserve. I go for a kind

848
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: of hiker around there every morning. And the number of

849
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,879
Speaker 2: people that I know because I've seen them when I've

850
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 2: been riding my bike live at the end of my street.

851
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: They're about ten blocks away from this park. Did I

852
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: see them drive up to go through their walk in

853
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: the park each morning? And I'm like, you're coming to

854
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 2: the park to walk. You could have just walked the

855
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: ten blucks to get here. So just you know, thinking

856
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: about CAI usage when gas is so expensive, is a

857
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: really potent little money saber.

858
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think too. I've noticed, especially when people go

859
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: to the gym. Yeah, people, when you live less than

860
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: a mile away and you don't walk or talk to

861
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 1: the gym. I'm always like, I don't understand, Like you're

862
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: literally driving there to get fit, so you could drive home,

863
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: like just just go on foot. One of the things

864
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: I'm curious too. I don't know if I've ever heard

865
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: you talk about this. Does how does a frugal hedonist

866
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 1: think about investing for the future. You talk about having

867
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 1: a pile of savings, but do you think the aspirations

868
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: of like financial independence are aligned with frual hedonism?

869
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 2: Yes, certainly. As I mentioned earlier, both my co author

870
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 2: Adam and I have never had any trouble saving money.

871
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: At some point I realized that I'd saved enough that

872
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 2: I should probably invest it, and I hunted around. I

873
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 2: found I don't like thinking about money, as I said,

874
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: I didn't want to have anything to do with it.

875
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 2: So I found the best ethical investor that I could.

876
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: They managed my savings for me. Those savings have been growing.

877
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 2: Occasionally I check in that their values are still aligned

878
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 2: with things I do and don't want to be supporting

879
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 2: and say, nope, I'm just not comfortable like being that

880
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: invested in I development or whatever it is. Just so

881
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: that's the line of my values and that is setting

882
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: me up to be financially independent. I think this is

883
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: a different level of independence, but feeling quite en meshed

884
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 2: in the community because of the kind of stuff that

885
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 2: I've talked about, like being generous with neighbors, helping babysit kids, friends,

886
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 2: sharing things around the neighborhood, borrowing things from each other.

887
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: That's a form of well, it's not independence, it's the

888
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 2: opposite of dependence, but it's old age and insurance because

889
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: people know who I am, They've got good will towards me,

890
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: and that's going to look after me into my old age.

891
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: So I feel pretty well thoughted on both of those levels,

892
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 2: financially and sort of socially, and those are both important

893
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: levels of investment for me. One thing that comes up

894
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: a bit is that neither Adam or I have kids,

895
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 2: so that this stuff can be different for people with kids.

896
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 2: But I'm pretty confident now in that because the book

897
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 2: has been out for over ten years. Basically eight ninety

898
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: percent of my friends have had kids of that time period,

899
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 2: and lots of their kids are now, you know, almost

900
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 2: ready to leave home. And the people amongst those people

901
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: who have really good frugal habits, it's carried them through

902
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: having children it is not impossible at all. It hasn't changed,

903
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 2: and if anything, I see them then instilling what is

904
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 2: getting to be a bit of a rarer kind of

905
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 2: money consciousness into their children so that their kids, you know,

906
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 2: have been given pocket money from a young age that

907
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: they have to learn how to manage and prioritize what

908
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 2: they spend it on. And that was actually a wonderful

909
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 2: gift that my mom gave to me as a single

910
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: mom who didn't have heaps of money, is that from

911
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 2: a really young age she gave me small amount of

912
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 2: pocket money and then each year she increased it and said, okay,

913
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: now you have to pay for your clothes out of

914
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: that amount of money. Now you have to pay for

915
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: because shoes are expensive, shoes get thrown in. Next year

916
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: a bit more pocket money. Now you have to pay

917
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: for any movie tickets or books or anything that you

918
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 2: want at that kind of money. And that started from

919
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: the age of about eight for me. So first of all,

920
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 2: I was just you know, having to budget for my

921
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: own lollies, my own candy. But then that got built

922
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: up every year so that it got me really thinking about, well,

923
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: if I have this, then I can't have that, and

924
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 2: if I, say three weeks pocket money, then I can

925
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 2: have that thing I really want. And so investing in

926
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 2: your children's frugal financial capacity in that way is also

927
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 2: an investment for the future, because those tunes are going

928
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: to be looking after you when you go old. You

929
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: don't want them broke, and I'm able to pay for

930
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,240
Speaker 2: your age care.

931
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome, any this has been such a great conversation.

932
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking the time. Where can how

933
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: the money listeners? Where can they find out more about

934
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: your book that's been around now for a long time,

935
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: But maybe a lot of folks in the US haven't uh,

936
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 1: maybe hasn't migrated across the pond in the same way.

937
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Actually, I do get a lot of letters from

938
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 2: US raiders, so I'm not sure how you guys are

939
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: all buying it, but people definitely are. You can go

940
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 2: to frigle hedonism dot com and I know it's stuck

941
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: at various bookstores. Unfortunately I don't know which one, so

942
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: probably fregleism dot com is going to be your easiest.

943
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: Okay, wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time,

944
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: and I.

945
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 2: Appreciate it absolutely. You have one for days.

946
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: It's always nice to talk to fun people, and Any's

947
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: enthusiasm was infectious, and that was a huge part of

948
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: the reason I wanted to have her on. Actually, when

949
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: I stopped recording, we're chatting for just a second and

950
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: she just I just talked about I just said it,

951
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: thank you for being so passionate about this and for

952
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 1: so much joy to the conversation. And she said, well,

953
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: joelas because deprivation never wins out. We like having fun

954
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: too much. And it talked about well, I think when

955
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: I started being frugal, so much of it was I

956
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 1: have to deprive myself so I can reach financial independence,

957
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 1: so I'm not worried about my money and my future.

958
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: And a lot of that stems from kind of things

959
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: I experienced in childhood, and I think part of the

960
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: last five seven years or whatever has been me trying

961
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: to change that mindset and be like, no, no, no, Like

962
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: a lot of the frugal choices I'm making are not

963
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: because I'm fearful about what's going to happen, or I'm

964
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: doing this because for an ultimate long term goal. There

965
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: is some of that, but a lot of it is

966
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: just saying, actually, I'm doing this because it's a better

967
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: alternative then the other more costly thing I could be doing.

968
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: And I think that is like a deeper connection to

969
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: frugality that Annie is sting, that she stressed in this conversation,

970
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: that she points us towards that is worth learning from.

971
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: And I think there are just so many big takeaways

972
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,479
Speaker 1: that I could discuss from this conversation. When she talked

973
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: about what we normalize is arbitrary, like the things that

974
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,959
Speaker 1: we think are normal three cars in the driveway or

975
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: thirty five hundred square feet worth of house or whatever.

976
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: I mean, all of the things that we normalize, they

977
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 1: are arbitrary. And when you look back to history, you

978
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 1: realize just how good we've got it. We live like

979
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: kings and queens, despite the fact that we're middle class

980
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: or something like that. Right, it's and we can change

981
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: the nature of what we value. She talked about even

982
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: some of the secret side effects of frugality, right being fitter,

983
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: having better community. She talked about self reliance and that

984
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: actually something we find admirable oftentimes in the people around

985
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: us is their bill the to restrain themselves and so

986
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: just so so much good stuff in this conversation. I

987
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed it, and I hope it inspired you

988
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: to think about your frugal attempts differently. Instead of just

989
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: pinching pennies in order to get ahead for future.

990
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 2: You, it is.

991
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 1: Better to think of it as lifestyle changes that you

992
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 1: can keep around for a long time to come, because

993
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: it's better for you. It's better for your money, but

994
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: it's better for your mental health. It's slowing you down

995
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: even just like, yeah, those walks instead of brunch. Right,

996
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: what can you do that's on those basic levels that

997
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: allows you to save some money but also increase some

998
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: of those other parts of your life that matter, that

999
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: are valuable. All right, let's going to do it for

1000
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: this episode. I feel like I could keep talking about

1001
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: this because such a fun topic. But we'll put links

1002
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: to Any's book into that website she mentioned in show

1003
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: notes up on the site howdamoney dot com. Thank you

1004
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. See you back here

1005
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: for a fresh Friday flight in a couple of days.

1006
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:09,959
Speaker 1: Until next time, Best Friend Out.