1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff from How Stuff Works. Hey, brain Stuff, 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: Lauren bog Obam. Here your seventeen minutes into an interview 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: for your dream job, and you are, as they say, 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: crushing it. They ask the usual questions about skills and experience, 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: and you come across as confident but not over confident. 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: You even get a few laughs about a story about 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: a jammed copier. But now comes the moment you dread, 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: so how much did you make it your last job? 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Do you try to parry the question or just give 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: in and cough up the dollar amount, knowing full well 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: that you were underpaid in your last job and that 12 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: it will likely haunt you into the new job as well. 13 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: We spoke with Heather Mills, the founder of Women Who Ask, 14 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: a company that provides consulting and classes to help women 15 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: negotiate for better salaries, promotions, and work life balance. She 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: has three simple words of advice here, just say no A. 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: Mills says that women in particular should avoid answering the 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: salary history question because it's used against them to perpetuate 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: the gender pay gap. Employers often try to base a 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: salary for a new hire off of what the candidate 21 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: earned at his or her previous job. If a woman 22 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: was underpaid in the past, this question all but guarantees 23 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: that she'll be underpaid in the future. In fact, the 24 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: salary history question is so insidious that several cities, states, 25 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: and individual companies have banned it outright from employee interviews. 26 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: That list includes California, Delaware, Massachusetts, New York City, and Chicago, 27 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: plus Google, Amazon, and Starbucks. Unfortunately, most women live and 28 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: work outside of these bastions of pay equality, and for them, 29 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: plus anyone else who thinks divulging their prior salary could 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: do more harm than good, a Mill suggests dodging the 31 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: salary question with questions of their own, like what's the 32 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: salary range for the job, what you have budgeted for 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: the position? Or I'd really like to find out more 34 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: about the role and see if it's a good fit 35 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: before discussing salary. The truth, explains Mills, is that salary 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: history has no real bearing on what an employer should 37 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: offer a prospective employee. She said, the company has a 38 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: budget for the role, they know the market rate, and 39 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: they know the kinds of skills and training they want 40 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: for the position. They really don't need your salary history. 41 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: To negotiate. They're just making a power play to get 42 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: an upper hand. In salary negotiations, there's a well known 43 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: psychological phenomenon called anchor bias. The first number thrown on 44 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: the table has an undue influence on the rest of 45 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: the offers. It's called setting the anchor. If you answer 46 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: the salary history question, explains Bill, then you risk setting 47 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: the anchor way too low, undercutting your negotiating power. A 48 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: better move is to refuse to talk money at any 49 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: time during the interview process. Salary negotiations should only begin 50 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: after both parties agree that you're a good fit for 51 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: the job. Then you have a much stronger hand because 52 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: they want you. Mills said, I tell my clients to 53 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: be warm and professional and smile and just let it 54 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: be awkward, but continue to not answer the question because 55 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 1: it's really not to your benefit. You're not being difficult, 56 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: you're not being unprofessional. You're being savvy. You're being art 57 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: and playing the game well. Even in states where the 58 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: salary history question is banned, employers and recruiters can still 59 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: ask you for your salary expectations or salary requirements. If 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: you ask for too much, you might knock yourself out 61 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: of contention for the job too little, and you may 62 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: perpetuate your previous history of being underpaid again. Mills strongly 63 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: advises against answering any salary questions until the real negotiations begin, 64 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: using some of the techniques mentioned earlier, but she adds 65 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: that it's always smart to arrive at the interview knowing 66 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: exactly what the market rate of the position is in 67 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: your geographic area. You can find out this information by 68 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: asking contacts and similar positions for their going rates and 69 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: looking at websites like glassdoor dot com and salary dot com. 70 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: Mills said, if you really feel like you're against a wall, 71 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: I suggest giving the highest number that you can justify 72 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: based on your market research. An anchor needs to give 73 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: you room to come down and make concessions. But what 74 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: about pre interviews where a recruiter or human resources representative 75 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: calls up to see if it's worth bringing you in 76 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: for a full interview with the employer. A common screener 77 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: question is to ask about salary requirements. Is it okay 78 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: to dodge the question even then? Well, yes, a Mill said, 79 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: no good can come from giving a number During the 80 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: pre interview stage. You should ask what they've budgeted for 81 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: the position, and they should tell you. If they keep 82 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: pressuring you to give your salary history or salary requirements, 83 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: then they're trying to get a bargain, and that's a 84 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: red flag for what you might be dealing with going 85 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: forward in the employment relationship. Today's episode was written by 86 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: Dave Ruse and produced by Tyler Playing. For more on 87 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: this and lots of other working topics, visit our home planet, 88 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com.