1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh, and 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. Dates here in spirit. 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: When you put us all together, you can call us 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: the blue Man group. Best they could come up with 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: on short notes. 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the I guess, the conclusion of our 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: two part series on colors. Although we have done colors 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: in the past. I know we did Indigo, and I 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: think we did a short stuff on Haint blue, right. 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: Yes, and some other stuff. It's come up in some 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: other things, but I think colors is going to be 12 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: a never ending suite. There's a lot of colors to cover. 13 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: That's right. And this is a story of not only 14 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: a color, but a process. And we're talking about the 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: color of Prussian blue. And that is the color of 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: a blueprint, like in the old days when blueprints were 17 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: really blue, like blueprints for a house or a building, 18 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: or a bridge or a tank or whatever you're going 19 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: to design. That blue is called Prussian blue. 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean if you go and look up 21 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: blueprints up to about the fifties, I would say you 22 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: are going to find actual blue blueprints, like you said. 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: And there was a guy named John Herschel. He was 24 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: an English astronomer, chemist and photographer. And this is back 25 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: when photographer is really something. This is the eighteen forties. 26 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: In eighteen forty two, he figured out that Prussian blue 27 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: is photo reactive, meaning that when you expose it to 28 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: light you can get Prussian blue. And he figured out 29 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: that you could use that chemical reaction to make copies 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: of things. It's extraordinarily clever. And I think John Herschel 31 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: deserves to be in the Inventors Hall of Fame for this. 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: Is he not I don't know. If he is, he 33 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: deserves to be there. If not, he deserves to be there. 34 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: I agree. So this is the process. It's called cyanotype, 35 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: and it was what early photographers used. In fact, the 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: very first published photography book was made with cyanotype. 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was, by the way, that was by Anna 38 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: Atkins who's eighteen forty three book Photographs of British Algae. 39 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: Get this, Chuck colon Cyana type impressions amazing. 40 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, architects and engineers were all 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: over this stuff as well, because they realize, hey, if 42 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: you can make a photograph using this syanotype process, you 43 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: can make a copy of something. And we're really tired 44 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: of redrawing everything over and over right exactly. 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: So the process involves producing blue ferric ferris cyanide. That's 46 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: the chemical name for Prussian blue. And you'll notice there's 47 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,839 Speaker 1: a lot of feric stuff in there. That means it's 48 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: made from iron salt, but it also is cyanide in it. 49 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: And just from this researching this episode, Chuck, I finally 50 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: understood what cyan as a blue refers to. It's referring 51 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: to cyanide. Yeah, did you know that already? No, Well, 52 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty cool. 53 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: That's awesome. 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: But if you take a drawing of something and you 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: can put it on something that's basically see through these days, 56 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: they use like clear plastic. If you're doing something like 57 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: this and you have a line drawing and you put 58 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: that line drawing on top of a paper that's been 59 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: treated in blue ferric fair cyanide and these iron salts 60 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: that make that, and you expose it to light, then 61 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: that the paper beneath that's treated in the Prussian blue 62 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: turns blue in every place except for where those lines 63 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: were on top of it. 64 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like a photo image in a dark room. 65 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: And in fact, you have to do it in a 66 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: dark room, just like you would a photograph. So that's 67 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: why you know. They would draw it in regular ink 68 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: on paper, and then the reverse negative image of that 69 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: would be white drawing on blue paper and a really 70 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: nice looking blue. 71 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 72 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gorgeous blue. Pressure and blue is fantastic. 73 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, I was typing in Prussian blue things and 74 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: I saw some suit jackets, some wool suit jackets. Prussian blue. Gorgeous. 75 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd look like a member of the Prussian army 76 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: from the nineteenth century. 77 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: That's right, That's why they named it that, right. 78 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you want to take a break and then 79 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: come back and talk about where Prussian blue came from? 80 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 81 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 3: Well, now we're on the road, driving in your Chuck, 82 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: I want to learn a thing or two from josh 83 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: Am Chuck. It's stuff you should know, all right, job. 84 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: So, Prussian blue finds its origins in the laboratory of 85 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: an alchemist and a die maker. Of all places, it's 86 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: a pretty cool place for a new thing to be created, 87 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: especially something as beautiful as pressure blue. And the alchemist 88 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: was a guy named Johann Conrad Dipple. How would you 89 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: say Conrad in German Chuck, Mmm, that's probably right. Conrad 90 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: or Conrad, I don't know. Actually, okay, well we'll just 91 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: call him mister Dipple. He was the alchemist hair dip 92 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: Air Dipple. Yeah, he was the alchemist, and the dye 93 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: maker was a guy named Diesbach. We're just going with 94 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: mister Disbach for this guy. And they shared this lab 95 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: in Berlin, and by sharing a lab and sharing one 96 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: another's or using like borrowing I should say, a cup 97 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: of one another's you know ingredients here there, they ended 98 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: up accidentally creating Prussian blue. 99 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I think the chemists was working on medicines 100 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: like elixers and things, and Diesbach, as a die maker, 101 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: was great at making these dyes. And as the story goes, 102 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: he was making a deep red dye one day when 103 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: he borrowed some potash from his chemist friend and that 104 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: turned it into this wonderful, wonderful Prussian blue. He went 105 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: back in hair Dipple and said, I got to figure 106 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: out what this stuff is. And he figured out the 107 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: secret was that the potash had ox blood and when 108 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: he mixed that with the iron sulfate that caused this 109 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: amazing blue to what does it do? Does it unveil itself. 110 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a great, great way to put it. 111 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: So Prussian blue has unveiled itself. And at first they 112 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: called it Berlin blue, and it only became known as 113 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: Prussian blue later on because it was used to dye 114 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: the uniforms of the Prussian army in the early nineteenth century, 115 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: and depending on what part of the continent you were on, 116 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: or whether you were on the continent at all, calling 117 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: it Prussian blue was either a term of endearment or 118 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: a term of disparagement because the Prussians helped save the 119 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: British as cookies at Waterloo and defeated Napoleon. So if 120 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: you were French, you didn't think very highly of the 121 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: Prussians or they're blue. If you were English, it was 122 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: a term of endearment because you were really grateful to 123 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: the Prussians for coming in saving the day. 124 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: There, that's right. 125 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: And it became a just a popular color. Like artists 126 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: loved using it, print makers loved using it. Obviously, these 127 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: architects loved the result of using it. I'm not sure 128 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: if they especially loved the color. That was just kind 129 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: of what color blueprints turned out to be, right, But 130 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: I'm sure, they were fine with it, but Herschel died 131 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: before that blue printing process was born. I think five 132 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: years later is when the actual architectural blueprint process that 133 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: is unfortunately gone, because I think it looks really neat 134 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: these days. You're not going to find that because over 135 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: the years a lot of different things happened to either 136 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: make it fall out of fashion or just make it 137 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: cheaper and safer and easier to make copies in different ways. 138 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: I would bet that there's some hipster artisan architectural firm 139 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: that still uses this process now you think has gone 140 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: back to it, Yeah, but the reason that has largely 141 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: been abandon is because it's a very labor intensive, time 142 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: intensive process, even if you're using kind of updated machinery, 143 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: and other processes came along that seem to do a 144 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: better job. And plus also I don't know if everybody's like, 145 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: we're sick of the blue or whatever, because there's another 146 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: process called diazo white press, and it does the same thing, 147 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: but it gives you like black or gray lines on 148 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: a white background, and that's kind of what the what 149 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: the architectural plants look like today. They don't look blue anymore. 150 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,599 Speaker 1: And then shortly After that, they came up with zerographic copiers, 151 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: which you just today call it copier. And I didn't 152 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: realize this either, chuck. They're called zero graphic because this 153 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: is a dry process, like zero like dry, like zero scaping. 154 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: It's a dry process because you don't have to wet 155 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: the paper that is receiving the image like you do 156 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: when you're using the old Prussian blue cyanotype process. 157 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's how Xerox got their name, right. 158 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, which is a proprietary eponym. 159 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I thought I thought the diaso process created 160 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: blue lines. Is that not true? 161 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: I think later on they figured out that if you 162 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: use blue lines on the original, it makes a cleaner 163 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: line on the copy. That's what that was my take 164 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: on it. 165 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: All right, And I think that was sort of like 166 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: in the seventies and then in the early two thousands 167 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: is when the d'azzo process started to kind of fade 168 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: away because you know, ammonia is not something you want 169 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: to be working with a lot, and there are also 170 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: regulations that increased in working with ammonia. And then you know, 171 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: the digital revolution came along print technology things that were 172 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: cheaper basically and smaller. All of a sudden, you didn't 173 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 2: have to have some huge like plot printer in your 174 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: office to make something like this, and it, you know, 175 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: it did, like everything, it became cheaper and smaller and faster. 176 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think the printers that can print out 177 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, like regulation size architectural planes or engineering plans, 178 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: those became more affordable too, And they're basically just xeroxes. 179 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: They're like printers essentially, just bigger size. The one thing 180 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: I did see, Chuck that I didn't realize pen plotters. 181 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: It's like a contraption originally where you have a pen 182 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 1: and connected to that pen is a bunch of other pens, 183 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: and so when you're drawing on one paper, the other 184 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: pins are drawing on their own paper. So you're making 185 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: copies like that as you're drawing in the first place. 186 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: Those have come back and they're now computerized. 187 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, plotters are super cool. At a frien years ago 188 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: that was a sign maker and he would, you know, 189 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: these plotters would cut out these designs from the computer 190 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: files and it's just really cool to see those things. 191 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: You know, that automation at work, even for like a 192 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: small business. You know, he was like a team of one. 193 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: The other thing I wanted to mention too, is I 194 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: think the d'azza's faded in sunlight. Oh okay, which it 195 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 2: was fine for a little while because apparently it takes 196 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: you know, like a few months, which was enough if 197 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 2: you're you know, if it's like a house plan or something, 198 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: you don't need it to last forever. But eventually they 199 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 2: were like, you know, we should probably make something a 200 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 2: little more permanent. 201 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: That connects the dots for me, because I saw on 202 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: some archivist website that they do not recommend using the 203 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: d'atzo print because it isn't it's so impermanent. Now I 204 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: have it, knowing's half the battle, as they say, Cyan Cian. 205 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: Chuck said, Cyan, I follow it up with a Scian too, 206 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: and everybody that means short stuff is out. 207 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. 208 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 209 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.