WEBVTT - Brain Soup and Liquid Brains 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.960 Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:13.880 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to Stuff 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.120 to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.000 I'm Joe McCormick. Joe. What what kind of image enters 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.520 your head when I say the words brain soup? Brain soup? 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:26.400 This is a Green Day song, isn't it? Is it? 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.880 I'm having trouble making soup? Is it? I don't know. 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.239 I'm not. I'm not. I'm not a sound dukie, right, 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.720 I only know like Green Day songs. I think I'm 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.360 getting this wrong. Uh No. I also think of there's 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.159 a horrible scene in Indiana Jones and the Temple of 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.960 Doom where they're they're eating all kinds of weird foods 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:49.600 that are parts of animals that you shouldn't eat, but 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.839 why not. But one of those parts is they eat 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:54.960 a monkey brain. I don't think that's supposed to be soup. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.600 By the way, one of my favorite things on the 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:04.000 Internet is a total tangent is uh is? Franchise specific 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:10.080 Wiki entries for inanimate objects allow me to explain. So 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.000 there is like an Indiana Jones wiki that's just a 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.720 website out there. It's got entries on it for all 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.760 the characters minor characters in Indiana Jones movies, all the 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.119 adventures he went on. But then also they're just entries 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.760 because it's a wiki of just objects that appear in 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.080 the Indiana Jones movies. So this will include like individual 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.880 pages for each course of the meal in Indiana Jones 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:33.560 and the Temple of Doom. And one of them, the 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.440 one that's got all the snakes in it, is called 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.479 Coiled Wriggley's. So wait, is it just it's just about 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.160 a fictional food or is it attempting to draw lines 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:47.000 between these outrageous and you know, like shock oriented foods 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.640 and in some actual traditions, because that if they're not 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.520 doing it, that would actually be kind of a fun 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.400 thing to do, to sort of take the shock that 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:58.000 they're that they're trying to utilize in that scene and say, 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.400 we'll hold on. Actually, here's some actual culinary traditions that 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.720 are not really that shocking. Uh no, it's not at 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.960 all that informative or mind opening. Just let me allow 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.480 me to quote directly from the page for Coiled Wriggles. 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.600 Coiled Wriggley is also known as Snakes Surprise, was a 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.080 dish served at the Guardian of Tradition dinner given at 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.400 Pancok Palace in nine thirty five. As the second course, 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.120 it was live baby eels stuffed inside a moist boa constrictor. 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:25.240 One of the guests at the dinner, a merchant, was 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.360 very pleased when the dish was served. Another guest enjoyed 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:32.600 the eels with great gusto. I have not seen that 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.600 film in a very long time. I really don't know 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.280 how it would would hold up. Some elements certainly do not. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.000 You know, I should point out that, like you know, 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.000 talking about brain soup, actual brain soup does exist. Do 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.120 you have, you know, various pork brain soups, etcetera. And 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.560 even though I'm a I'm a pet scutarian these days, 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.360 I wouldn't order pork brain soup at a restaurant. I 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.080 looked at some photos and it looks perfectly delicious and 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.600 not at all weird. Uh So I just want to 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.320 drive that home regarding uh the consumption of of brain 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:07.000 based soups before I bring up something that comes to 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.000 my mind when I when I hear brain soup, and 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:11.600 what came into my mind when I heard it recently? 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.480 I instantly think back to the two film it came 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.959 from Hollywood. Oh, yes, so this was this is a film. 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.040 It's it's I think you can watch most of it 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.440 on YouTube these days. But as Dan Ackroyd, John Candy 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.520 Cheech and Chong Gilda Radner, that whole crew, and sort 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.240 of before Mystery Science Theater, there was this movie. It 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.600 was just a clip show of like bad sci fi 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.400 films and stuff, with the hosts of the movie making 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.200 jokes about them. Yeah, and so a lot of trailer clips, 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.320 a lot of weird clips, And there's a whole section 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.600 that I that I loved as a kid about brains. 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.720 You know, all these weird fifties and sixties brain monster films, 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.160 which which I think are probably expressing a certain amount 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.720 of anxiety regarding like post war advances in neuroscience and 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.360 the sort of existential conundros that are raised, you know, like, 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.080 am I just a brain? What does it mean to 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.400 be just a brain? Will a brain jump out of 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.280 someone's head and attack me with its tentacles? There was 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.000 a lot of revolutionary neuroscience going on in the nineteen fifties, 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.920 and yeah, I can see exactly why people would be 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.920 concerned about this kind of thing, though some of them 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:18.919 are just more like I think there's one called like 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:23.200 the brain from Planet Rouse or something that, yeah, just 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.560 giant brains swarming at people. So I don't know exactly 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.919 how much that plays on anxieties about neurology, but I 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:31.839 mean I get that that what I really get a 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.880 sense of it when I see clips from Fiend Without 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.719 a Face, because as we have the fabulous stop motion 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:43.280 brains and kind of like spinal column tentacles, yeah, all 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.000 over the furniture. We just sprayed for brains last week. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.760 But anyway, this particular segment on brains was introduced by 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:56.479 dan ackroyd Uh and he's he's he's in this this scene. 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.839 It's like he's in a butcher's shop and he's playing 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.960 a maniacal Perhaps he's supposed to be like a mad 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:06.320 brain scientist or a brain butcher, or like a brain 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.480 addict cannibal. It's it's kind of hard to say, it's 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.719 not entirely clear, but it's it's silly and it's gross 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.279 and it's a I was tempted to play a clip 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.840 from it here, but it's just so over the top 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.400 that I don't I don't think it would translate well 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.920 to an audio only environment. You are correctly capturing here 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.159 the strangeness of the premise for the sketch in the movie. 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.719 I don't just blithely throw around the phrase cocaine fuel. 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.960 But there there are some cases where you get you 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.000 get a suspicion. But also in that scene, I remember 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.160 dan Ackroyd is doing a voice that sounds a lot 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.800 like a Monty Python voice, and he sounds like the 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.200 leader of the Knights who say knee. Yes he does. 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.880 It's that kind of like ridiculous cartoonish voice. Oh yeah, 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.640 the whole segment is is fabulous, all right, But all 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.640 this sort of these sort of visceral reactions to the 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.000 idea of brain soup aside, we are not going to 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.520 be talking about eating brains today on the show. We're 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.280 going to talk about the very real practice, the scientific 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.880 practice of making brain soup to better understand the neural 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:19.520 power of animal brains. Well, I am very intrigued already now, Robert, 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.679 I know this. The subject is not coming out of nowhere. 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.640 This is inspired by something that you just saw when 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:27.600 you were at the World Science Festival in New York 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:29.799 City last week. That's right. Yeah, I just got back 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.280 and uh yeah. This is held every the last week 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.640 of May every year, and as usual I got to 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.039 hear some of the world's leading scientists and thinkers discussed 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.359 a number of exciting topics. And one of the talks 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.719 I attended was rethinking thinking how intelligent are other animals? 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.640 This is always a great subject and something we've revisited 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.280 quite a few times on the podcast before. One time 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.360 we talked with friends devol here on the podcast in 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.240 an interview about his book. His book, I remember it 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.400 had a kind of awkward title. It was something it 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.800 was something like, are we smart enough to know how 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.800 marred animals are? Doesn't really roll off the tongue, but 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.400 it's actually a really good book. Uh. And and this 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.039 has come up with reference to the intelligence of birds 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.960 and and quite a few cases. Actually. Yeah. And so 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.400 this particular talk was loaded with interesting participants, But the 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.920 participant that got me thinking about brain soup was Susanna 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:22.880 or Kulana Uzel, PhD, a biologist and neuroscientists at Vanderbilt 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.720 University in Nashville, Tennessee, where she is Associate professor in 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.960 the Department of Psychology and biological sciences, and her research 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.920 focuses on what different brains are made off. Now, Robert, 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.560 I envy you getting to see a panel that involved her, 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.040 because I've actually watched a TED talk that she did 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.040 back from I think it was twenty She's a fantastic 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.120 public speaker. So yeah, she seems like a really good 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.320 public science communicator. Yeah, Like when I say, you know 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.320 that you have a panel of of leading scientists there 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.720 on the stage, like, don't don't imagine something stuffy, because 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.000 you often have some just really wonderful science communicators up 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.000 there that you know are experts in their field, but 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.160 are also able to talk about that in a way 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.880 that people at you know, various levels of expertise can 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.240 can jump in on. And that's certainly the case with 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.600 Susanna her colono ozel. Now, I do want to mention 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.880 you're you're hearing this last name. Sometimes you will hear 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:22.560 people pronounce it her colono hose l um. If you're 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.560 trying to look it up, it's h e r c 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.560 u l a n o dash h o u z 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.760 e l. Trying to to do the name justice here 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.240 with our bungling mouths. So, as she tells it her 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:38.440 Colona Hoose was working as a science educator um in 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.200 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and uh, and she kept running 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.240 into an old myth that I'm sure many of you 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.640 have run into before as well. Now, this is not 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.320 when we use the word myth too in the non 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:56.360 derogatory science. This is just foundational story, maybe involving supernatural elements. Yeah, 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.280 this is the derogatory myth. And that myth is we 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:03.120 only use ten percent of our brain. And this has 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.800 been used really overused in sci fi movies, especially over 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:12.200 the years, as recently as Teens Lucy and twenty eleven 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.920 is limitless um, which by the way, decided to double it, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.240 but still but still stuck to this idea that there's 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:23.040 only a small percentage of the human brain that is available. Uh. 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.280 And of course all these these you know, films and 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:27.840 pretty much anytime you see this trouted out, it's it's 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.120 with the idea like there's there are ways to open 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.480 up the rest of the brain. There's like this dormant brain. Uh, 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.800 these dormant brain portions that can be utilized if only 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:38.480 you have the key. And the key of course is 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.560 right and it's supplied by you know, some sort of 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.560 mad science. If you're in a fiction or if you're 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.800 encountering it saying some sort of self help scenario, then 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:48.920 they're going to sell you the key or yeah, if 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:52.840 you're encountering it and uh, it's say nutritional supplement marketing. 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:54.920 I mean, this is a big thing out there. Yeah, 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.360 but we say it's a myth because and we'll break 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.880 this down a little bit here, but but basically, there's 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.920 nothing to these numbers. Now, we we all use of 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.920 our brains. Well, when you start, when you start to 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.920 look at the claim, it becomes less and less clear 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:12.800 what it even means. Does it mean we only use 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.680 ten percent of our brain at a time? Do we 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.920 only use ten percent of it ever in our whole lives? 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.200 Like what even counts as quote using the brain in 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.640 the first place. Yeah, I feel like we've talked about 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.000 about neuroscience on the show enough, you know, and talking 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.960 about various f M R eyes studies and like what 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:32.760 parts of the brain are lighting up, what parts of 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.080 the brain, and what networks of the brain are associated 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:40.000 with different thoughts and behaviors, etcetera. That it's it's clear 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.720 that like there's there is definitely a lot of stuff 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:45.400 in play and then virtually and then really everything is 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.640 in play. Um I guess, I guess the confusion could 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.800 be if you're looking at various images of fm R 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:52.160 E s and you're thinking, oh, well, that looks about 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.720 like ten percent. That looks about like ten percent. That's 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.040 a really good point. When people talk about f m 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.240 r I studies, sometimes they will loosely and casually try 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.040 to explain the findings of an fMRI I study by saying, Hey, 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.720 when somebody was doing this task with their brain, you know, 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.760 they were trying to tie a knot or they were 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.160 you know, whittling a whittling a horsey out of soap. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.319 When they're doing this task, this part of their brain 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.240 lights up. That's the phrase this lights up, which implies 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.160 that the entire rest of the brain is dark until 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.680 it just lights up, as if it's like totally dormant, 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.920 and that's not true. I mean brain imaging studies like 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.079 you know, PET scans and fMRI I that they show 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.480 relative activity, so that they're charting activity and seeing what 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:39.120 areas get get surges of activity relative to what they 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.079 were doing at other times. Right there, the areas that 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.800 are not lit up are not lifeless, right, But I mean, 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.280 even back to this, I want to know again what 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.640 what would actually mean to use your whole brain or 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.559 to use certain percentages of your brain. I was reading 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.920 around about this and I found one pretty interesting thing. 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.320 So the neuroscientist Gabrielle and Torrey I think she's at 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.400 Boston University now. She wrote an interesting post about this 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:06.959 myth that I found on a website called Knowing Neurons, 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:10.719 and in one section of her article, she discusses difficulties 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.280 determining what it would actually mean to use quote a 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.960 hundred percent of your brain, Like there's no single way 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.680 to measure what portion of the brain is being used 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.720 at any given time. The default mode network, of course, 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.480 is in operation throughout the brain pretty much all the time. 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.079 But does that not count as the brain being used? 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.240 I mean, even when you're at rest, the default mode 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.640 network is whirrying away all throughout the brain quite unfortunately 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:36.840 in some cases. In some case, I don't know if 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:38.640 you'd want to be without your default Well now I 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:40.520 wouldn't want to give it up, but it it is 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.600 kind of thorn in my side at times. Oh, it 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.880 certainly can be. But then interesting I really like this part. 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.440 So she tries to take this claim seriously, like this 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.160 ten percent of the brain is being used claim, and 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:55.640 she's like, what would that actually mean? Well, she offers 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.440 one interpretation of what it would mean to use a 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.640 hundred percent of your brain, and it would mean a 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.120 Grand Moll seizure. So it would be like limitless except 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.920 Bradley Cooper takes a magic pill and it just makes 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.960 his brain like like we almost explode. Yeah, exactly. So, 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.840 to read from tories where quote, seizures are defined by 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.760 excessive and synchronous neural activity. If we wanted to use 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.920 a hundred percent of our brains to stimulate each of 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.160 the brains one hundred billion neurons, this is funny. We 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.640 should come back to this in a second, to maximum 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.800 capacity firing would result in a likely fatal physical experience 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.160 to hope for synchronous exit. Tory activity across the cortex 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:38.080 is in many ways synonymous to a Grand Mall seizure. Uh. 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.240 This is the most severe type of seizure and leads 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.720 to loss of consciousness and severe muscle contractions, not the 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.679 unlocking of superhuman abilities. So I think, obviously we don't 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.960 just want universal synchronous patterns of excitation of every neuron 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:56.720 in the cortex. That's stupid. That's not something to wish for, right, 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.839 It's like, you don't want the brain working that hard universally. 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:02.360 It's like you don't want your your you don't want 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.640 your xbox to be clearly just just heating up and 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.920 like that the fan is about to explode like that. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.280 You know, something's wrong with it. Yeah, my CPU is 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:16.360 a constantly And she also mentions the default mode network. 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.200 You know, it's this diffuse, interconnected set of activity notes 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.360 that show activation when the brain is otherwise at rest. 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.000 You know, it shows the brain is pretty much never dormant. 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.000 There's activity throughout most of the brain most of the time. 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.520 So where did this clearly false claim come from? The 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:36.840 answer actually isn't known for sure, but I found one 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.280 commonly cited early example is a quote falsely attributed to 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.520 the American psychologist William James, the author of a great 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.320 classic text, The Varieties of Religious Experience, which is still 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.760 interesting to read parts of today. Yeah, we've cited him 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.040 a few different times on the show. Yeah, but apparently 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.040 James did write something generically kind of like this, but 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.800 without a number sited uh in a piece called The 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.160 Energies of Men, where you wrote, quote, we are making 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.760 use of only a small part of our possible mental 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.480 and physical resources, which is a very different kind of statement. Right. Yeah, 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.400 he's not putting a fine number on it or saying 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.960 like I mean that that statement alone is not not 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.240 implying that the portions of the brain are inactive, just that, 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.480 for you know, we're not taking full um advantage of 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.200 our neurological potential. And I want to mention a bit 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.720 more about that in a second. Uh So, as to 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.280 the origin of the phrase, the ten percent figure is 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.280 also cited in the nineteen thirties, and this has been 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:35.920 pointed out by quite a few investigators by the author 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:40.160 of an introduction to Dale Carnegie's classic self help book 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.760 How to Win Friends and Influence People, which possibly little 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.680 known fact Charles Manson's favorite book, Really Yeah, a classic 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.960 of business leaders and serial killers alike. But this explains 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.160 it a bit though. Right we have here an introduction 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:57.360 to a widely read popular book. Yeah, and the author 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.720 of the introduction says, we only act, you know, we 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:02.320 only use ten percent of our brains. The vast amount 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.720 of our mental potential is untapped. And I mentioned this 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:07.680 a minute ago, but I I just want to hammer 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.360 home again. I feel like I've seen this nonsensical ten 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.680 percent fact invoked by people selling some of the various 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:19.160 like brain booster pills and supposed new tropics supplements. Uh. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.120 I would advise people to be cautious about that kind 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.560 of stuff. And I'm not ruling out the possibility that 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.000 there are some nutritional supplements or drugs that might in 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.400 some cases have a small effect on mental performance. But 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.720 if somebody is trying to sell you pills that will 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.560 unlock the untapped godlike potential of the you know, the 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.640 paid access part of your brain, the brains premium content. 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.840 As a general rule, be suspicious of this. I would. 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.600 I would advise in general, don't trust them and don't 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.560 give them your money, because they're certainly tapping into something 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:51.680 I think we all know to be true and we 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.040 all certainly want to be true, the idea that there 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.080 is room for improvement exactly, that we can learn new things, 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.200 that we can we can take on new pattern and 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:01.920 all of these things are true. You don't need a 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.199 phony number to back that up exactly right. I mean, 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:05.879 I think a large part of the basis for this 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.560 false fact about ten percent lies not in how much 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.400 of our brains we use as a as a ratio, 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.640 but in the way that we use our brains. And 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.280 the most salient example that comes to my mind is 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.159 the psychologist Daniel Konomon is really useful metaphors of system 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.280 one versus system to thinking. You know, so system one 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.760 we've discussed on the podcast before, but system one is 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.240 a suite of human brain functions that allow us to 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:36.400 process information in a fast, easy, automatic, and approximate way. 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.480 It's intuition, so you know, think rules of thumb, stereotypes, 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.920 intuitive and reactive thinking eyebawling it. Meanwhile, system two is 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.679 described as the slow, deliberate, effortful thinking, the kind of 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.560 reasoning you use when you make a list of pros 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.280 and cons, or you solve a math problem, or you 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.439 carefully plan a route of movement somewhere, or you effortfully 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.560 trace out the logic of an argument. We're all capable 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.439 of both kinds of thinking, but we also rely on 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.639 system one most of the time for most things, and 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.520 that's because of efficiency. Like, you can't process all information 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.639 in a slow, effortful way, you don't have time, and 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.119 System one is not all bad in some tasks. I 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.960 think it might actually be superior. Like consider the way 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:26.360 that overthinking some athletic tasks like shooting a basketball actually 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:28.840 makes you worse at them. You know, like a lot 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.320 of players find that they sink more baskets if they 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.720 just try to relax and let the shot happen rather 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.160 than focusing on the distance and the angle and everything. 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:39.960 And I think this actually even comes through in some 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.040 more abstract tasks, like sometimes I think people can be 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.200 better writers if they if they just kind of enter 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.320 a flow state and not sitting overthink over, deliberative lee 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.960 about the sentences they're constructing. This is very interesting and 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.160 hopefully this won't be too much of a tangent here, 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.800 but um, but it's also we have to be careful 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.600 about thinking about like system on a system to being 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.760 just complete like jackal and hides. Because actually the World 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.320 Science Festival, another panel I attendant had to do with 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.000 risky behavior and risk taking, especially in extreme sports UH 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.680 such as say free solo climbing UH and like free 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:17.879 cloaks of solo climbing is a great example because you 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.760 have you have certain individuals who definitely display more of 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.560 a system to approach, like they are methodical. They're they're 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.080 not they're not climbing at climbing that that that that 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.639 that sheer cliff without the aid of ropes, you know, 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.320 without having practiced it many times, without having climbed it 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.840 many times with ropes and thinking through several moves ahead, 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.200 you'll see where you're going to go. On the other hand, 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.359 you have individuals who do have more of an impulsive 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:50.760 approach to risky behaviors, risk taking activities. But like with 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.240 the basketball, you can say, well you can perhaps you're 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.800 engaging in system too to practice so that you can 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.520 reach the point where you can engage with the challenge 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.880 with a system one mindset. I think that's exactly right. So, yeah, 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.720 system one is not necessarily bad. It's not all bad. 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.240 Sometimes it's bad. And I think we're all aware of 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:16.040 cases where we have used fast, intuitive, reactive, likely inaccurate 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.320 thinking when we know that we probably could have and 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.840 should have stopped to think things out slowly and deliberately. 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.119 Like you can probably immediately think of examples where you 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.320 really wish you had switched over to system to thinking, 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.280 but you made a fast intuitive decision and you came 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.679 to regret it. And I think it's this kind of 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:39.440 frequently squandered mental potential that becomes the nugget of truth 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.400 in the ten percent factoid. We use our whole brains, 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.520 but we don't always use our brains as effectively as 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.520 we know we're capable of in every scenario, because it's hard, 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.760 because we're in a hurry. Does that make sense? Absolutely? Yeah. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.600 We we we delive life. We have to engage both approaches 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.240 to our decision. Make yeah. All right. On that note, 0:20:58.240 --> 0:20:59.639 we're going to take a quick break, but when we 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.440 come we're going to return to the idea of brain 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.399 soup and to the work of Susanna or Coolana Ozel. 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:11.080 Thank alright, we're back. So we got sidetracked on the 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.040 the idea of whether or not people actually use more 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.639 than ten percent of their brains. We do in pretty 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.760 much any way you interpret that. But that came up 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:23.360 because it was the basis of a journey of research 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.080