WEBVTT - Burned from the Mind’s Eye, Part 1 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:13.520 I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:15.680 Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:19.720 and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's October. So we're continuing 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:23.599 with our Halloween spooky, ghostly kind of theme, and today 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.320 we wanted to explore a somewhat ghostly topic that ties 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.080 into neuroscience to stuff we've talked about recently on the 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.720 Invention podcast with the history of photography. But before we 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:36.560 get into that, I wanted to start with a question 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.440 to kind of orient us here, and that question is, 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.159 what is it that makes somebody skilled at an art 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.800 like realistic drawing or realistic sculpture. I should say, by 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.159 the way, I am not skilled at this at all. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.920 I cannot draw realistically for the life of me. In fact, 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:55.840 when I tried to draw pictures of people, it's the 0:00:57.320 --> 0:00:59.960 it's a source of great amusement to Rachel. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:01.800 I'm in the same way. I can. I can draw 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.839 a pretty mean goblin, but um, I can't really draw 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.160 a human. My my son, who seven, is already a 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.560 better that better artist when it comes to depicting actual 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.240 human beings than I. But but obviously so, a huge 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.920 part of what's going on here is is practice, right, 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.679 you gotta learn techniques. But another part of this I 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.360 think could just be thought of as some kind of 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.080 motor power of translation. Like how do you take an 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.759 image represented in your brain and it's in your brain 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.160 either way, whether you're currently looking at it or calling 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.760 up out of a memory or an imagination. Either way, 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.200 the image is coming from your brain, and then it's 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:45.400 being translated somehow through a series of hand motions into 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.800 a physical object in the world, whether that's a sculpture, painting, 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.880 or drawing. Like, there's some kind of skill there that 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.880 I think remains ineffable to us. It's mysterious. Sometimes it's 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.160 even kind of spooky because we don't understand what's happening 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.560 with that translate process. But what if there were no 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.920 translation process? What if there were no way for clumsy 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.480 arms and hands and failures of technique to impede the 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.359 physical manifestation of what you've got in your mind's I 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.680 what if we could just project the objects of the 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:24.360 mind's eye directly onto the physical world. Would such a 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.359 thing be possible, and if so, would such a power 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.520 be in a way terrifying, sort of godlike in the 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.880 worst and most ancient sense. Ah, and here you're getting 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:38.440 into the uh, the Halloween aspects of this topic. This 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.079 is the reason that we have decided to approach this 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.760 during the month of October, exactly because this power does 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.520 show up in horror fiction. One place that you might 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.679 have encountered it is in the books or the movies. Uh. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:52.720 There have been several different series at this point, but 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.920 The Ring, the story of The Ring, the the scary 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.080 ghost girl who can print media with her brain. You 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:05.440 can psychically print images onto photographs or onto the wall 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.920 of a barn, or onto a videotape. She can just 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.080 make a videotape without filming it, just straight out of 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.440 her mind's eye. Of course, this is played up for 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.040 horror in the film, and I I sort of stand 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.320 by taking it in that direction. I think if anybody 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.080 actually had this power, it would be horrifying, and it 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.400 would be it would be a little irritating to everyone 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.680 who's has put a lot of time and effort into 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:32.959 honing their craft. Right. Um, so it's possible. You're you're 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.160 familiar with The Ring via Gore Rabinski's two thousand and 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.720 two remake The Ring. This is where I saw it 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.520 for the first time too, but you also may have 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:47.320 seen it by watching the original Japanese horror film directed 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:52.560 by Hideo Nakata. This came out, and I severely hope 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.280 that if you, if you did see the original Japanese 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.120 version back in the late nineties, you watched it on 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.200 a crumb a dubbed VH tape because that would be 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.920 most appropriate, right, because either way, if you haven't seen 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.160 the movies or read see The original Japanese movie was 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.160 also based on a book by by Koji Suzuki, but 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.720 in any case, the story is about a cursed videotape 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.680 that is made by this ghost girl. She uses the 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.680 psychic power of projecting her thoughts directly onto media to 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.480 make a videotape that kills the people who watch it. Yeah, 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.000 a curse video tape containing disturbing It is basically a disturbing, 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.440 surrealistic art video kills you in seven days. So there's 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.159 kind of a uh what do you call it in 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:43.480 medicinal terms? Uh? Delayed react effects effects. Uh. It takes 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.320 that along to work through your system, you know, time 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.440 to release. Sometimes artists like that it's time released. You go, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.560 you want to see it at the museum, and you're like, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.480 I don't really know what what I how I feel 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:54.960 about this or or you know, how I think about 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:57.400 this piece and how it relates to me, and then 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.480 seven days later it kicks in and you die with 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:02.560 a weird look kind of fist. But yeah, this is 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.039 basically an update of a very old notion, right of 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.880 a haunted object, or of haunted media. Only instead of 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.359 a dark and magical book, instead of something like you know, 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.479 the Necronomicon or you know the Book of sand or 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.919 any of these other treatments, we have a dark and 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.760 magical video recording and it unleashes a world of terror 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.919 and death. It's an inherently compelling idea. In horror, I 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.839 think actually some piece of media, whether it's a book 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.520 or now a movie, I think there there's some There 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.960 are Stephen King's story with like a painting that kills 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:39.960 you or something. There's the representage horror, and it's one 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.680 of one of King's best short stories. I highly recommend. 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:44.320 I agree. Maybe that is what I was thinking of. 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.760 That is a fantastic story. Um, but yeah, I mean, 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.440 obviously the idea of like a a work of art 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:54.120 or something that cannot be experienced without cursing or killing you. Yeah, 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.560 that's scary. It's also fertile ground for any kind of 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.599 metaphor that the artist wants to sew about, you know, 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.279 about art itself. And and art does have an effect 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.880 on us. I mean there's an old episode of Stuff 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.280 to Blow your Mind where Julie and I discussed Stendahl 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.960 syndrome and some of its related uh alleged syndromes. You know, 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.040 it deals with the reality that, yes, sometimes great works 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.480 of art, uh, you know, with great works of art 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.840 with appropriate priming, uh can overwhelm us, can have a 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.839 physical reaction on us. So uh, you know, it's it's 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.320 not unrealistic. Um. Yeah, you know. I want to say 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.040 about the gor Verbinsky remake of The Ring, Well, I 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.039 don't inherently love the idea of just like American remakes 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:39.119 of foreign films just to sort of americanize it because 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.080 it had only been like a few years since the 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.120 original film had been made at that point, right, and 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:47.080 they americanized the heck out of exactly. But at the 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.599 same time, one thing I will defend about it is 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.640 it is a very um visually imaginative film, Like it's 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:58.080 got great creepy abstract imagery in it. Oh yeah, great, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:03.000 great visuals, great performances, uh in, wonderful special effects. Uh 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.440 That remake I remember really had an effect on me. 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.400 Was the last time a horror film like made me 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.560 sleep with the lights on? Uh? So I look back 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.520 fondly on it for that reason. However, I have to 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.520 say certain aspects of the film stuck with me and 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.760 others I kind of forgot about. Like some of you 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.120 might be like, oh, yeah, I guess that girl did 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.360 write video tapes with her mind like that I kind 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.560 of forgot about. I also kind of forgot that it 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:33.440 had this that it's essentially adoption sploitation horror not the 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.440 only country, yeah, basically, yeah, basically because the whole idea 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.920 is that this this couple that adopts this child, and 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.520 the child is troubled, and I forgot that she was adopted. Yeah. 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.480 So you know, I have a very uh queasy attitude 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.240 towards that kind of horror at this point in my life. 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.760 For sure, totally. But but still, those are the things 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.440 I tend to forget about it. I remember, you know, 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:01.320 those scenes with Samara um iimbing out of the television 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:03.920 with the creepy walk where they think they filmed her 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.760 backwards and then made it go forwards. I remember, I 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.440 think Hans Zimmer did the music, and it's very effective 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.760 horror music. Um. And then on and then on to 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.920 the On top of that, you have some great performances. Uh. 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.240 Did you ever see the sequel? I didn't spoil it all. 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.840 I saw it in the theater even um and I 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:26.360 don't recommend it, but but no, it's a it is 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.320 a film that is still both films are considered classics 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.760 in their own way, and I think they earned that 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.360 that reputation just if nothing else, by just scaring us 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:40.880 so terribly and really connecting with our relationship with media. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.400 And at that time it was it was dealing with 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.839 the VHS and uh and and and how we were 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.920 connecting with with this kind of you know, physical media. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.400 And I should say also you know, getting into that 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.439 idea of finding weird things, finding weird footage. And at 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.280 that point it was most of us through like tape 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.320 trading or I guess to a certain extent, downloads, but 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.520 I definitely remember, uh, you know, ordering up like weird 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:10.000 dubs of the Japanese laser disc of say um El 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.960 Topo or Holy Mountain, and there was this weird you know, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.280 like you do. You have not really sure exactly how 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.480 this got to you. You know, what are the hands 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.959 that dubbed it from this format to this format and 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.480 then re dubbed it here and then finally it's in 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:25.360 my hands. I think that is actually one of my 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:30.160 favorite types of story forms for horror is the the 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.920 creepy found piece of media. I can remember one of 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.240 my favorite horror short stories I've read in a long 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.199 time was won by Laird Baron. I think it's called 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:43.360 Mysterium Tremendum, where the narrator of the story you just 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.720 finds this travel guide and I think some weird use 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.920 bookstore or something, but it turns out to be a 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.600 nefarious sort of magic travel guide that leads to very 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.760 dark places. So yeah, I love that nowadays though, and 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:57.520 and maybe they do this so I think maybe they 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.440 did this in one of the recent Ring movies. It's like, 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.400 essentially it's gotta be on YouTube, which takes the punch 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.480 out of it because it's like you have the dark media, 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.480 but then the dark media is on an even more 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:12.000 um deplorable social media you know, bummer format. But it 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.600 also takes away the ironic distance that makes the horror 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.440 fun because YouTube just will melt your brain and kill you. 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.600 It doesn't, it doesn't need any like horror upgrades. The real, 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.600 actual YouTube is just waiting to destroy you at the moment. Yeah, 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.200 though it is, it is kind of comforting to think 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.760 that that all the commentators at the bottom of the 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.840 Ring video, then YouTube died seven days later. So, like 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.120 the guy says, w TF is disreal? Yes, is real. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.000 As long as we're just talking about the Ring, though, 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.520 the American remake, we should point out again that that 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:49.120 cast is tremendous. Um talking about Samara. Her mom is 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.400 played by Shannon cochrane who plays who played Pam's mother 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.480 on the Office, and then her father is played by 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:00.199 Brian Cox, the legendary Brian Cox. Brian Cox of my 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.760 favorite actors of all time. He he kind of makes 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.960 the movie and in the the the the young actor 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.840 playing Samara herself. I don't know if we said Samara 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:10.920 is the ghost Girl, the ghost Girl, she's Samara and 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.760 the American version, and she's Sadako in the Japanese version, 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.880 so that the name changes. But anyway, in the in 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.160 the in the remake Devey case Chase, I hope I'm 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.120 saying her name right. Uh. This actor played Samara, and 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:29.040 she also voiced Lilo in Lilo and Stitching, the Disney 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.560 film about the you know, the the alien visiting Hawaii. 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.320 Going to her IMDb page is hilarious because I found 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.840 out she also is the girl in the Sparkle Dance 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.959 Troupe in Donnie Dark. And she's the voice of the 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.480 main character in the in the English dub of Spirited Away. Ah. Yeah, 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.719 the Minazaki film great. Okay, So, first of all, the 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:53.199 idea that Samara can create a surrealistic film that she 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:58.760 can pour like all the the nihilistic, misanthropic visions in 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.120 her head into a videotape and make it so potent 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.480 that it can kill people, either just through the sheer 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.559 power of the art or you know, probably through some 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.040 sort of supernatural um you know whatever. Uh. That's a 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.520 really cool trick and one that I would think could 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.760 have been put to much more profitable use. Um, Like, 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.240 why isn't there a sequel where like the U. S 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.520 Military ends up acquiring Samara, Like that would be great 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.000 because since she ends up killing all the like the 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.679 evil mk Ultra gate dudes, it basically rights itself. But 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.320 sort of a crossover with The Ring and Stranger Things 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.280 would have been yea. Now to to go a little deeper, though, 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.640 I think in a way this concept really really works though, 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.600 Like you can think of any creative endeavor, especially filmmaking, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.320 as an attempt to bring that ideal image, that mental 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.800 image in your head into the world, and of course, 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.240 for a number of reasons, we generally don't succeed in 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.680 pulling that off. And part of the reason, of course, 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:54.679 is that is that the idea in our mind is 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.360 rarely as fully formed as we think it is. I 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.319 think that's exactly right. I mean an experience so I 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.800 definitely have when writing. And I think you've said you 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.559 have this before, is I don't necessarily know what I'm 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.760 going to write until I start writing, Like if I'm 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.920 writing a scene in fiction, you know, like that it's 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:15.520 the process of writing that helps bring out the content. Yeah, exactly. Uh, 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.200 you know in other issues coming to play as well, 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.559 in the final version perhaps feels a bit lacking, So 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:23.360 you know, you can forgive a lot of us if 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.199 we we we wonder, you know, imagine how perfect it 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:27.959 would it would have been if you've been able to 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.040 simply beam your vision directly onto a video tape. You 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.320 don't have to worry about casting it where you're gonna 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.920 film all your weird art, film your artifacts. How are 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.280 you going to get that that chair to go upside down? No, 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.160 you can just beam it directly onto the onto the 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.839 tape um. And so maybe the power then of your 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.840 vision would be so pure and uncut that it would 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.040 just literally slay people. Well, I like that, But on 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:54.559 the other hand, I mean, I think it's sort of 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.199 trying to imagine. This highlights the unreality of what it 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.679 is you're trying to imagine. I mean, I feel like 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.319 our image of the thing we want to create is 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.520 never really fully formed, even when it seems like it is. 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.920 I wonder if even people who have extremely vivid mental 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.679 imagery can actually see a full completed painting that they 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.440 haven't finished painting yet, uh, and and not just sort 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.000 of like see glimpses of little bits of color and 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.680 shape that that ultimately add up to something concrete and 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.200 finalized once you've you know, translated it through your hand 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.800 movements into that painting. I kind of doubt that people 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.640 can actually see a full painting that they haven't painted yet, right, 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:39.800 And maybe we may be part of his linguistic you know, 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.000 like we we might tend to say a sculptor might say, 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.440 I see the horse trapped in this block, and I 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:48.480 wish to free it. I'm just going to remove all 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.560 the pieces around the finished piece that I envisioned within it, 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.400 within reality. It's more like I see the inspiration for 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.400 the thing that I am going to create. Yeah, a 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.400 kind of fuzzy, low resolution suggestion of the thing that 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.240 you will create. Yeah. And then comes the hard work. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.200 Then comes the talent, uh, and the skill. One more 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.480 one more thing about the ring, and then I'll I'll 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.360 mostly let it go. But ultimately, what is the message 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.520 of this film. It's It's seen because basically the whole 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.640 plot is, oh, this these tapes are killing people. Why 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.240 is it killing people? Oh, it's because of this little 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.920 girl that died. And then they go on this question like, oh, 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.480 well we can set her spirit free, she'll be happy 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.120 and everyone will be saved. And then you realize, oh, no, 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.600 that doesn't work, because she can't be saved. She's just 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.440 evil to the core, and everybody's gonna keep on dying, right, Well, 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.680 but they do figure out a way to get around 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.480 the curse, which is just keep passing it, keeps spreading it. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.400 So right, if you spread the curse to more people, 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.040 she won't kill you. Yeah, when basically the plot of 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.040 of it follows as well, right, But but ultimately in 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.560 the Ring, well you only get temporarily spirit and it follows, right, 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.520 But then I think in the Ring they acknowledge what 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:58.680 happens when like you know, that did it might come 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.120 back to them as well. But maybe that's in the sequels. No, No, 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.040 I think that was it was kind of at least 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.080 hinted at in the first book. Yeah, I don't really 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.320 don't trying to think about the sequels. But but ultimately, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.680 like the messages, don't try to help people, don't try 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.240 and fix the world like everybody's gonna do. That's so 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.880 just so bleak and nihilistic. Maybe it's just too bleak 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:19.440 and nihilistic for me now. It's the kind of thing 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.320 I would have loved when I was younger. But but yeah, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:26.520 that's such a harsh way to land it. Isn't it. Yeah, Um, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.760 it's not an inspiring story on close examination. But but 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.360 I do still stand by a lot of the visual 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.600 imagery in the film, which I think holds up really well. 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.960 And Brian Cox is just an absolute treat absolutely. All Right, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:41.720 we're gonna take a quick break when we come back. 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.440 We're going to move on from just discussing the ring 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.360 in general, and we're going to discuss this this thing 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.360 that she is supposed to do, this idea that a 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.840 mind could somehow imprint an image on something or in 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.000 something or in like on tape or on film. Uh. 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.240 And it's gonna be one of these top that I 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.360 think you know, draws in from a number of past 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.960 episodes of both stuff to blow your mind and invention. 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:13.040 Thank alright, we're back. So we're exploring the topic of 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:18.879 psychic photography, or just generally being able to print the 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.920 mind's eye into some manifestation in the physical world without 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:27.240 going through any kind of normal motor translation process like 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.639 drawing with your hand or explaining a mental image with 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:35.080 your mouth, just printing the mind's eye directly onto film 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.440 or onto a piece of paper. Yes, and this is 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.399 a topic that if you're if you're already thinking, well, 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.480 that just sounds silly. Um, we'll hang with us, because 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.680 you know, ultimately, I mean, I think it's pretty safe 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.280 to say this is not actually occurring, This is not 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.399 a power that human beings actually have. But but by 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.800 looking at it and considering, like how we get to 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.320 this point of thinking that it's possible in some cases, 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.920 uh you know, what it reveals as about our relationship 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.880 with our own mind and considerations of our own mind 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.400 and mental states, as well as our understanding of photography itself. Yeah, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.480 this episode made me keep thinking back to the series 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.240 on photography that we did on our other podcast, Invention, 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.800 which if you're not subscribed yet, go subscribe to Invention. 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.200 That's right, it's a journey through human techno history. And 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.920 oh yeah, we did a whole series on photography, also 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.080 stuff before photography, like the camera obscura, and then also 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.320 on motion picture technology afterwards. And really, you know, we can't, 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:36.159 uh you know, overstate the degree to which photography change 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.520 the world. It changed the way we thought about the world, 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.800 how we thought about ourselves. It gave us new metaphors 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.159 for uh, you know, thinking about our own minds and 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:49.960 how we're perceiving the world and uh also arguably made 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.119 the modern celebrity possible. Uh So we can lay that 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.280 crime at its feet as well, but it also lent 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.240 itself well to a number of pseudo scientific ideas and 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:05.040 ultimately downright occult notions about what photography was and what 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.000 it might capture. Well. Sure, because if you are, say, 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.000 somebody who is adamant that there is a type of 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:18.159 reality that we can't normally see, a very commonplace to 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.720 go to try to find bits of evidence of that 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.560 reality that we can't normally see is some kind of 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.560 objective recorded media. I mean, I think about the people 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:31.800 who do e VP ghost recordings electronic voice phenomena. Again, 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:33.840 this is not something that I think is real evidence 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.359 of ghosts, but a lot of people think, Okay, you know, 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.080 I take my tape recorder to a haunted graveyard and 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:40.879 I just leave it going, and then I play it 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.920 back and in through the static and the rustling in 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.919 the wind, I hear voices saying things. If I can 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.720 be psychological for a minute, I think what's mostly going 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:53.200 on is that drawing from objective recording media like that 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.199 allows people to generate the noise into which they can 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.440 read a signal, yes, And of course photogra raphe when 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.240 it was new, provided a whole new way of doing 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.159 something like this, right, And then other technologies that were 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.159 coming out around, you know, in the same era, we 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.399 also had the X ray, which we also have an 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.840 episode of Invention about which deals with invisible um, you 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.760 know processes, you know, invisible rays, an invisible world and 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.440 and also was a big game changer and how we 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.879 we thought about reality. Sure, so I was reading a 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.320 little more about this, and I ran across a two 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.960 thousand five book titled The Perfect Medium by Shiro at 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.879 All and it it gets into the intersections between the 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:39.919 occult and photography, which are numerous, numerous, but the author's 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.480 point out that they generally they generally fall into three categories. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.959 First of all, photographs of spirits, in which a spirit 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.480 entity shows up in the photograph. I think we awph 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.000 movie with the examples of this, uh uh. And then 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.679 another is photographs of mediums in which the spirit medium, 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:57.520 which is a you know, human like as someone who's 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:01.520 leading a seance or something, is doing something supernatural. Okay, 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.960 so it might be like a photograph that shows that 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.119 during a seance, this medium was levitating, or that this 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.399 medium during some kind of session, was generating ectoplasm, right, 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.440 And that's the next one, photographs of fluids And and 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.479 this one is interesting because the obvious subject matter here 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:24.080 is exoplasm, some weird substance emerging from the individual, and 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:28.359 in reality it's generally wet sheep's cloth or something like that. Uh. 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:30.680 And it's easy to just think of this as ghost 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:35.040 slime and a ghostbuster's fashion. Maybe we should explain ectoplasm 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.280 just a little bit more so. It was this phenomenon 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:41.480 where a medium would claim that they can generate some 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.000 kind of physical manifestation of the spirit world that shows 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.239 up when you take a picture of them in the dark. Maybe, uh, 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.240 and it would yeah, so it would look like some 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.320 kind of weird cloth or slime beside their head or 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:57.600 on their body, like like a big like mucus something 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.040 like don't even generally it just looks like some it 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.760 a weird mucacy cloth they got slimed. Yeah, slimber exactly. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.200 I mean, that's where that comes from. But it's also 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.520 a bit more more complex in the society. You know 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.040 that the fluids in these photographs as sharrow and I'll 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.160 point out, you know, it's dealing with this the idea 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.760 that you're capturing a sense of the vital force, the soul, 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.720 the thoughts, feelings, dreams, etcetera. All of this directly captured 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:22.560 on a photographic plate without the use of a camera 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:25.399 in some cases. So it has a strong connection to 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.159 what was going on at the time and observation of 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.840 X rays and radioactivity. They point out that in France, 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.280 so Luis darg and others quote, sought to photograph their 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.640 own vital energy or thoughts simply by placing their fingers 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:43.520 or foreheads on the censusized plate, despite numerous refutations by 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:46.560 scientists who demonstrated that the traces thus obtained were no 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:50.760 more than photographic artifacts arising out of the experimental conditions themselves. 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.919 Attempts to record human fluids continued throughout the twentieth century, 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.720 and so this these fluids would not just be like 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:01.640 blood or something. That would be these the spiritual fluids. Yeah, 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:03.600 and it gets beyond just like mere fluids and into 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:07.240 also things like horrors. Um. So in other words, and 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:12.000 the people still do photographing as absolutely, that's like big business. Yeah, 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:13.920 So you know, in other words, in the midst of 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:16.879 all this what was essentially future shock, you know, uh 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:20.479 at this emerging technology and the hidden worlds exposed through 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:24.280 X rays. This idea of capturing thoughts through photography carried 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:26.639 a fair amount of weight, no matter what the science 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:30.200 said and is still saying about it. So the author's 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:33.119 point to to uh to a couple of examples, one 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:37.480 of which is the work of Simion Kurlean in the 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.919 nineteen forties. Uh. Kurlean, of course, is where we get 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:45.200 Kurlean photography. He lived nineteen seventy eight, and it's the 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.200 process in which an image is obtained by the application 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.200 of a high frequency electric field to an object so 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:54.800 that it radiates a characteristic pattern of luminescence that is 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:58.280 recorded on photographic film. And it ultimately has to do 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.120 with moisture and other factors. But but claims were made 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:04.760 that it captured some aspect of an individual's health, their essence, 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:08.280 or their vital bodily energy. So there's some kind of 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:10.879 like invisible quality they have this showing up when you 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:13.480 run this electric current and take a picture, right, And 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.000 I think it's still factors into some sort of to 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:21.120 some like alternative like new age of systems, and I'm 0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:23.400 not saying there's anything wrong with that. I mean, it's 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:26.200 ultimately you're you're dealing with something that is perhaps a 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:33.639 a what you know, a supernatural interpretation of some visual 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:37.280 data that you've created, which you know, as long as 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:40.520 you're not not you know, claiming that it's scientific, I 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:43.600 guess you know, go for it. Um. It just falls 0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:48.120 under the domain of of of of spiritualism and religion. 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:50.800 They also point to a man by the name of 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:54.360 ted Sirius, who we will come back to in a bit. Yes, 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:56.879 because we before we get to Sirius, we have to 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:01.600 explore the origins of this very act that Samara in 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:05.600 the Ring is Uh is engaging in. UH, this idea 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:09.520 that human beings are capable not only of photography, which 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:12.720 photography in and of itself is an amazing accomplishment. This 0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:16.200 this this much seemed magic when it was new. Oh, absolutely, 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.880 because at least we discussed an invention. You know. It's 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:24.040 it's this perfect convergence of of optical expertise and chemical 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.840 expertise and artistic expertise, all of it coming together in 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:31.200 this new way of of of of dealing with the 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:34.960 visual world. Um. But then we have this added idea 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:40.560 that people can also engage in thought ptography, right thoughtography. Uh, 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:45.000 it goes by several names, now psychic photography maybe thoughtography, 0:25:45.640 --> 0:25:49.080 and it's modern origins are I think you could you 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:51.880 could argue that they are in Japan. So I want 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:56.040 to talk about a researcher named Fukuai Tomokuchi, who is 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.480 a Japanese psychologist who lived from eighteen sixty nine to 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:04.320 nineteen fifty two. He was educated at Tokyo Imperial University 0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:07.199 in the eighteen nineties. He studied in their philosophy department. 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:09.600 Because this would have been when psychology was brand new. 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:13.040 There weren't like psychology departments you know at there would 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:14.720 have been many if there were any at the time, 0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:18.600 and he received his PhD after doing a dissertation on hypnotism. 0:26:19.000 --> 0:26:23.040 And according to the History of Japanese Psychology by Brian J. McVeigh, 0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:25.920 which is my source on most of this about Fukarai, 0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:29.680 Fukarai played an important role in introducing the work of 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:34.560 the pioneering American psychologist William James to Japanese scholars. Of course, 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:38.240 William James would have been a contemporary of fukurais James 0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:41.200 Is The Principles of Psychology came out in eighteen ninety 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:44.880 and his lectures which became the Varieties of Religious Experience, 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:46.760 which we've talked about a number of times on the show. 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:49.479 That those happened around nineteen o one and nineteen o two, 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:51.520 I think, But so this would have been around the 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:54.360 same time that Fukarai was working and UH and doing 0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:58.320 his dissertation and doing his early research. And now, according 0:26:58.359 --> 0:27:02.840 to McVeigh, Fukarai also published work on the subject of education, 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:06.159 and he became a lecturer and an associate professor in 0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:09.159 the field of abnormal psychology, which today we would just 0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:12.320 call the study of mental illnesses. And he so he 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:15.560 was a lecturer at Tokyo Imperial University on these subjects. 0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:19.440 But from here his interests apparently took a turn for 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:25.520 the paranormal. So, beginning sometime around nineteen ten, Fukarai became 0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:31.439 extremely interested in spiritualism, especially in the subject of clairvoyance. Now, 0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:33.399 of course, we should note that he would not have 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:37.919 been alone in this at the time. Interest in spiritualism, mediums, 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:42.199 and the paranormal enjoyed extreme popularity and elite circles all 0:27:42.240 --> 0:27:46.240 around the world at this time now Today, clairvoyance is 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:49.359 usually understood to be a special kind of psychic power. 0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:52.960 Common definition of it is quote the supposed faculty of 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:56.520 perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal 0:27:56.680 --> 0:28:01.639 sensory contact. Now, like a lot of psychic concepts, I 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:06.040 see clairvoyance invoked to refer to sort of a broad 0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:09.640 range of things. So I think it can include all 0:28:09.760 --> 0:28:13.359 manner of cases of remote viewing. So like seeing things 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:16.440 that are behind physical barriers. You know, you shouldn't be 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:18.720 able to see through the closed door into the next room, 0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:21.879 but you can seeing things that are far away, you know, 0:28:22.200 --> 0:28:25.160 maybe seeing things that are happening in another country, seeing 0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:27.920 things that are separated in time, in the future or 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:31.640 the past. Uh. And sometimes, but less often, seeing things 0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:34.760 that can't normally be seen at all, such as spiritual 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:38.560 essences or the contents of other people's thoughts, or otherwise 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:42.000 having knowledge that you just couldn't acquire by normal means. Now, 0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:45.120 of course, it's worth noting that all of these things 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:52.000 as psychic phenomenon, they are basically exaggerations of things that 0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:55.960 the human mind does through um, you know, through a 0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:59.480 mental time travel, for instance, imagining what the future will 0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:02.560 be like a or remembering what the past was. The 0:29:02.720 --> 0:29:05.120 idea of not being able to see through a wall 0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:07.040 into the next room and see what's going on there, 0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:10.600 but perform, but you know, conceiving a mental picture of 0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:12.840 what it might be like. Like for instance, there's another 0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:15.800 recording studio here in the office. I cannot see in 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:18.560 there with my mind, but with my mind, I can 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.120 imagine that the guys from stuff they don't want you 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:24.160 to know are in there right now recording something. But 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:28.040 you cannot imagine what they are doing. But I can 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:30.480 form a pretty basic idea that you're setting around a 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:32.680 table talking. It will not fit in your brain, and 0:29:32.840 --> 0:29:35.720 they're doing it's it's it looks just like what we're doing. 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:39.520 The subject matter is slightly different. But but at any rate, 0:29:39.960 --> 0:29:42.920 what I'm saying is I can form a pretty good idea, 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:45.800 but I know that that is just my brain creating 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:49.400 a simulation of my environment, right. But I mean, I 0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:51.800 think a lot of this clairvoyant stuff hinges on the 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:55.240 concept of generating accurate knowledge. It's like all the stuff 0:29:55.320 --> 0:29:57.920 we can do with our imagination, except they can do 0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:02.080 it to see reality. Um, And the kind of clairvoyants 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:04.400 that Fukurai was most interested in I think would be 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:06.760 covered by the first two categories of things I said, 0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:09.280 so mostly like seeing things that are far away and 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:13.800 seeing across physical barriers. According to McVeigh, he was focused 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:17.640 on something called toshi, which meant something like seeing through, 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:21.680 as in seeing through barriers, and on syndrigan, which meant 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:25.520 the far seeing I And in this para psychology phase 0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:28.280 of his life, Fukurai was aided by another Japanese researcher 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:34.640 named Imamura Shinkichi. Now Fukuai studied a reputed Japanese clairvoyant 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:40.240 named Mifuna Chizuko and another named Nagao Ikuko, and McVeigh 0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:43.320 writes that in nineteen ten, Fukurai performed a series of 0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:46.560 experiments in front of a panel of scholars and experts 0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:51.040 that he believed would demonstrate Mifuna Chizuko's power to read 0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:55.080 out written messages even after they'd been sealed inside envelopes 0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:59.440 and then placed inside lead containers, and apparently an attempt 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:02.720 to rep locate these experiments the following year in nineteen eleven, 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:06.080 was not as successful as Fukurai and Mifune had hoped, 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:09.360 and a lot of people considered that Fukarai's research was 0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:14.080 clearly misguided after some failed demonstrations, and he and his 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:18.400 supposed clairvoyance subjects like Nagau and Mfune were criticized in 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:20.920 the press. And at least I think it's implied that 0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:24.320 partially as a result of these failures and subsequent criticism, 0:31:24.720 --> 0:31:29.200 McVeigh writes that both Mfuni and Nagaikuko committed suicide in 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:33.240 the year nineteen eleven, but before I've also seen another 0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:37.080 cause of death attributed to Nagaikuko, so I'm not sure 0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:39.480 about that. But McVeigh says that that she also died 0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:43.880 by suicide. But before she died in nineteen eleven, Nagaikuko 0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:47.720 appeared to demonstrate a novel form of psychic power that 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:52.080 fascinated Fukurai, and this was apart from traditional clairvoyance. This 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:56.440 was the power that Fukurai called ninsha, which would have 0:31:56.600 --> 0:32:01.400 roughly translated as thoughtography. That the Japanese term ninha comes 0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:04.480 from the combination of nin meaning like sense or feeling, 0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:08.200 and shah meaning picture, and in concrete terms, this just 0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:10.640 means that Fukura I believe that Negau had the power 0:32:10.720 --> 0:32:14.360 to use her mind's eye to expose a dry plate 0:32:14.440 --> 0:32:19.160 of photographic film, essentially burning her thoughts directly onto the 0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:22.320 physical substrate, the same way that light prints and image 0:32:22.320 --> 0:32:25.680 onto a piece of film. After Mifune and Nagau died, 0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:28.680 Fukurai continued his research, and he published a book about 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:33.280 clairvoyance and photography in nineteen thirteen, which was widely criticized 0:32:33.320 --> 0:32:36.760 as credulous and unscientific, and Fugura I eventually lost his 0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:40.240 university position moved on to other things that he apparently 0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:43.640 continued to be interested in paranormal research well into his 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:48.040 retirement in the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties. UM one 0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:51.440 weird thing is before he was publicly ridiculed and ousted 0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:54.680 from his position, it took you a university. Fugara was 0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:58.000 considered an elite scholar at the head of Japanese psychology. 0:32:58.080 --> 0:33:00.680 He was not you know, just some crank right pamphlets 0:33:00.680 --> 0:33:04.479 in his basement. He was uh. He was a top scholar, 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.840 and his his academic exile had consequences. I was reading 0:33:07.840 --> 0:33:11.040 in the Oxford Handbook of the History of Psychology, Global 0:33:11.120 --> 0:33:14.480 Perspectives by David B. Baker that, in reaction to the 0:33:14.520 --> 0:33:18.160 Fukarai Affair, a new head of the psychology department at 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:23.040 Tokyo Imperial University, decided that the department could rehabilitate its 0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:28.920 reputation by only focusing on quote normal psychology, ignoring both 0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:32.480 of Fukara's areas of study, meaning parapsychology like the study 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:36.600 of psychics and quote abnormal psychology, which again would amount 0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:39.800 to the study of mental illness. Uh. Now, of course, 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:42.240 saying we're not going to study mental illnesses is a 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:46.280 huge limitation on academic psychology, which the authors right in 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:49.719 this book a quote stunted the rise of clinical psychology 0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:52.959 and pre war Japan. Yeah, absolutely though, because he had 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:55.760 studying an mental illness is a way not only of 0:33:55.920 --> 0:33:59.240 understanding how to trade mental illness, but also to understand 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:03.240 like what, uh you know, how the mind is functioning 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:07.800 in individuals who are are not experiencing mental illness, right, 0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:11.239 I mean it. It provides a frame of reference. Yeah, 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:13.520 A lot of the For example, a lot of the 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:16.640 biggest breakthroughs in the history of psychology have come from 0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:19.920 studying patients who have brain injuries or legions or some 0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:23.600 kind that like they show you how the brain changes 0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:26.960 when certain or how the mind changes and how behavior 0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:29.919 changes when certain physical changes are made to the brain. 0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:32.880 And of course, I I've seen it alleged by a 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:35.800 number of writers that the stories of people like me, 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:40.200 Funa Chizuko, and Nagai Kuko inspired the fictional ghost in 0:34:40.239 --> 0:34:42.839 the original Ring by Suzuki Koji. I don't know if 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:45.600 that's uh correct, but it's at least been alleged that 0:34:45.719 --> 0:34:49.160 there's some threat of inspiration there um. And you know, 0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:51.560 I want to be a little bit sympathetic to Fukurai 0:34:51.719 --> 0:34:55.600 and consider the historical context, Like in the year nineteen ten, 0:34:56.800 --> 0:34:59.320 it was only fifteen years previous that X rays and 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:01.800 X ray photog graphy had been discovered. We sort of 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:06.080 alluded to this earlier, right. The German physicist Wilhelm Runkin. 0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.279 He discovered X rays by accident in the year eight 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:13.040 when he was performing experiments with the type of early 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:16.480 cathode ray tube, which was an electrical device that shoots 0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:20.160 a beam of electrons across space inside and evacuated tube 0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:23.680 from one electrode to another. And Runkin noticed when he 0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.400 was running these experiments, he'd put current through the cathode 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:28.880 ray tube in the darkened room it would make this 0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:32.360 particular screen in the room. It was a screen of 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:36.120 barium platinum cyanide, which is like a type of photographic plate. 0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:39.600 It would make that glow. And this puzzled him, of course, 0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:41.719 so he tried to run some more experiments, and he 0:35:41.840 --> 0:35:45.120 discovered that he could use the cathode ray tube to 0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:50.200 expose photographic plates inside a completely dark room, except the 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:53.600 photos were nothing like anybody on Earth had ever seen. 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:57.200 A human hand placed in front of the tube, between 0:35:57.280 --> 0:36:00.200 the tube and the plate would create an exposed you're 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:03.800 almost completely ignoring the fleshy parts of the hand, but 0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:08.160 showing the bones hidden underneath the flesh. And when Runkan 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:10.680 created an X ray exposure of his wife's hand, she 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:13.399 reportedly looked at the images of her bones and said, 0:36:13.480 --> 0:36:16.840 I have seen my death. Uh yeah. And if you 0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:18.440 want more about this, we talked about this in our 0:36:18.560 --> 0:36:21.040 x ray episode of Invention. But the X ray photo 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:24.640 was a radically completely new way of imaging the hidden 0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:28.080 reality inside the body. It had been discovered almost completely 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:30.839 by accident, and it had been only like fifteen years 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:33.680 before this. Of course, photography itself was maybe like eighty 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:36.480 to ninety years old at the time. And so you 0:36:36.560 --> 0:36:38.759 add to that the fact that people were proposing all 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:42.160 kinds of other hypothetical classes of rays at the time. 0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:45.600 You remember we talked about n rays. Those didn't exist, 0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:48.440 but people were just thinking that there were all kinds 0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:52.480 of rays we didn't detect or understand yet invisible forces 0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:56.560 beaming out from one object to another. Um Fukurai was wrong. 0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:58.719 I think. I think he was misguided, But I don't 0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:02.319 think it was crazy the time, or certainly not as 0:37:02.360 --> 0:37:04.840 crazy as it seems now to think that the hidden 0:37:04.920 --> 0:37:08.520 anatomy that governed the mind's eye and the brain might 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:11.120 leave some kind of print on a piece of film 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:14.160 via raise projected out of the head. I don't know. 0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:16.200 Does does that make sense to you? Yeah? Yeah, I 0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:19.160 mean we have to put ourselves in the framework of 0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:21.560 the time, and uh and and and really again in 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:24.560 that the sense of future shock that would have would 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:27.520 have still been resonating, and to a certain extent still resonates, 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:29.319 because I think one of the one of the things 0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:31.920 that we're going to keep seeing in these episodes is 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:35.520 that and I think this was revealed again in our 0:37:35.719 --> 0:37:39.600 our photography series on Invention, is that photography is a 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:43.279 complicated process that brings in uh, you know, at least 0:37:43.320 --> 0:37:46.920 two different fields the third if you count the artistic 0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:52.320 world as well, but certainly optics and chemistry, and not 0:37:52.520 --> 0:37:55.680 everyone really has a firm grasp on that like it too. 0:37:55.880 --> 0:37:57.600 For a lot of us, it's still kind of feels 0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:01.960 like magic. A polaroid camera, uh, you know, we're you know, 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:05.960 instantly gives you the the images sort of magic. Uh. 0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:10.120 And when we when we don't understand something completely, it 0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:15.440 it allows us to engage in uh, unrealistic modes of 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:20.360 thought about what is going on with the camera, what 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:23.279 is going on with photography. All right, we're gonna keep 0:38:23.320 --> 0:38:25.520 talking about all this, but we're gonna take one quick 0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:32.080 break first. Alright, we're back. So I want to talk 0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:34.640 just a little bit about this idea of remote viewing, 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:39.560 which which Fukurai was definitely involved in. This idea that 0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:41.440 you know, you could just you could see what's going 0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:44.480 on in another place, either in another room, another part 0:38:44.520 --> 0:38:48.560 of the world, sealed envelope, sealed envelope, or another planet. 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:52.000 And you know, another example of an accomplished individual in 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:56.160 their field who is also a prominent, uh proponent of 0:38:56.239 --> 0:39:01.240 remote viewing is Atlanta's own Courtney Brown, an associate professor 0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:04.640 in the Political Science Department at Emory University. It also 0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:09.560 works in nonlinear mathematics. So we see in fukarai and 0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:14.880 interest in hypnosis uh and then Brown is versed in meditation. UH. 0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:18.880 Meditation induced light experiences can occur and have been linked 0:39:18.920 --> 0:39:23.120 to similar experiences in sensory deprivation UH and and I've 0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:25.960 seen things like that in yoga meditation as well, where 0:39:26.000 --> 0:39:28.960 you will be you know, you're you're you're seeing lights 0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:33.480 or shapes or or some sort of imagery that feels 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:36.440 as if it is it is arising, and it is 0:39:36.520 --> 0:39:39.080 not called forth you know what I'm saying, Like, it 0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:42.520 doesn't feel like it's something that you are consciously imagining. 0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:45.040 It doesn't feel like something that is dictated by the 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:47.520 default mode network, you know, it doesn't feel like the 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:51.640 sort of images um or thoughts that are normally bombarding 0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:54.520 our brain. Well, I think about how often in psychedelic 0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:58.239 experiences people talk about believing they have encountered an other 0:39:59.000 --> 0:40:01.480 where if you just you know, it's impossible to know 0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:03.480 for sure, but it seems like probably what's going on 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:06.360 is they're having an internal experience with their own brain. 0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:10.480 But there are some types of experiences that we've just 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:14.920 for whatever reason, feel our exogenous. It feels like it's 0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:17.759 coming from outside you, right. And so with with the 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:22.840 right amount of of priming, expectation, and ultimately consolidation, like 0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:25.920 any one of these experiences, be it something that is 0:40:26.200 --> 0:40:28.960 due to the use of psychedelics or something that is 0:40:29.000 --> 0:40:33.919 acquired through meditation, hypnosis, etcetera um. Because as we've discussed before, 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:37.960 like even normal our normal sensory view of the world 0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:42.320 is inherently hallucinatory, you know, it is in its in 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:45.359 its own way and illusion. It's not the way things are. 0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:48.000 It's just like a useful sort of movie that we 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:50.799 can interact with the world through. Right. So if you're 0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:53.799 having an experience like that and it feels real, right, 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.520 and then you can see how even like like certainly 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:02.640 very intelligent people uh can can can come to believe 0:41:02.800 --> 0:41:06.640 that that they are actually perceiving the reality of a 0:41:06.680 --> 0:41:10.200 distant location and become very convinced of it. And then 0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:13.279 certainly if you have a name for this as well, 0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:16.920 you know, it becomes kind of established in parapsychology. Than 0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:19.560 than that also helps that gives you even more like 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:24.000 priming and conditioning, uh too, in which to frame this experience. 0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:26.279 And and also I mean just to go back to 0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:28.960 psychedelics too, and certainly our episode on psychedelics, like we 0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:32.279 see that trend uh in the twentieth century, right this, 0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:38.480 this counterculture emerged, this idea taking shape that secular individuals 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:43.239 can have a essentially a mystical experience that is not 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:47.640 due to the imachinations of gods or angels, you know, 0:41:48.360 --> 0:41:51.400 um and and so you know, it's it's not surprising 0:41:51.480 --> 0:41:55.080 that we see all, you know, cases like this arising. Well, 0:41:55.120 --> 0:41:57.440 I also say on top of that, there's just I 0:41:57.560 --> 0:42:02.120 think there's a very respectable humilitium el that says, like, Okay, 0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:04.200 you know, we should always accept that there may be 0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:06.680 forces at work in our day to day surroundings that 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:09.560 we don't fully understand. You know, we don't have a 0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:12.759 scientific theory that accounts for them yet. And I think 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.360 that's a good thing to to start from. But I 0:42:15.400 --> 0:42:18.279 think a lot of like parapsychology and paranormal type people 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:22.440 jump from there too, because we we should acknowledge that 0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:24.279 there are lots of things about the world we don't 0:42:24.320 --> 0:42:27.960 understand yet. Therefore, remote viewing is real you know, or 0:42:28.080 --> 0:42:33.200 like therefore, you know, you can't discount thoughtography and finding 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:35.279 the right balance there I think is part of the 0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:38.000 difficulty of living the skeptical life. You know, you don't 0:42:38.040 --> 0:42:40.400 want to live a life of denialism where you're just like, 0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:44.000 anytime something is strange or unexplained, you just say like, oh, 0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:46.520 that's nonsense. But at the same time, you want to 0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:49.320 maintain a high standard of evidence, and that's that's the 0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:51.360 tightrope walk I guess you've got to do if you 0:42:51.400 --> 0:42:54.000 want to be a scientific investigator, if you want to 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:56.360 try to have the most accurate view you can of 0:42:56.440 --> 0:42:59.000 the world, and they're always going to be these edge 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:03.160 cases where some he's presenting, you know, evidence that maybe 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:07.760 maybe seems compelling for some kind of phenomenon that doesn't 0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:10.680 really seem like it like it fits with well tested 0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:13.879 theories that otherwise predict the physical world. And I think 0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:16.279 that's the case that some of these investigators have run 0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:20.000 into with psychic photography, especially in the cases we'll talk 0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:23.200 about with Ted serious. Absolutely, I should also point out 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:25.640 that we always have to remember that the c i 0:43:25.760 --> 0:43:29.560 A sunk something like twenty million dollars into the stargate 0:43:29.640 --> 0:43:32.680 project in the nineteen nineties and an attempt to ascertain 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:36.080 the effectiveness and military potential of remote viewing. And this 0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:40.359 project was ultimately terminated in remote viewing was found unfruitful 0:43:40.480 --> 0:43:45.920 to their needs. But maybe it was a conspiracy. No, No, 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:48.200 I mean, yeah, I I tend to think like if 0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:51.160 there I mean, first of all, I've got major objections 0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:53.960 to remote viewing, just on like a plausibility basis, Like 0:43:54.360 --> 0:43:57.480 you know, again, you can't rule things out just because 0:43:57.520 --> 0:43:59.320 you don't know the mechanism. But if you've got a 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:02.160 pretty good picture of how physics works and it just 0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:05.160 you know, their power is proposed that don't seem to 0:44:05.360 --> 0:44:09.240 fit in any way with any you know, any physical 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:12.360 forces that you could identify. That's that should definitely be 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:14.799 a red flag to start with. And then on top 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:17.640 of that, I think there are additional plausibility problems with 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:20.719 remote viewing, which is like if it is, if it 0:44:20.800 --> 0:44:25.640 does exist, why isn't it being taken better advantage of Yeah? Uh, 0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:27.320 and that thing said, I do come back to like 0:44:27.440 --> 0:44:30.800 what I said earlier, like even though it's not scientifically 0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:35.000 feasible as far as we understand it, um, you know, 0:44:35.120 --> 0:44:37.360 that doesn't mean that you know, people shouldn't be interested 0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:40.520 in it and uh or even you know, practice it. 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:42.960 But it needs to be more of I feel like 0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:44.600 it is more definitely in the line of like a 0:44:44.719 --> 0:44:48.360 spiritual or religious practice, you know. Um. But that's my 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:50.600 just my two cents on it. And I think that's 0:44:50.640 --> 0:44:52.640 one of the problems that and we're going to see 0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:54.680 that with a lot of these these people that that 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:57.960 are they're claiming these abilities, is they are not presenting 0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:01.759 them as something that is uh, you know, ultimately like 0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:04.600 the domain of the spiritual, something that can't really be 0:45:04.719 --> 0:45:07.640 proven or disproven. But they're but they're agreeing to tests, 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:12.480 they're agreeing to uh to uh performances of their ability 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:16.640 and inviting in some cases experts to to see what 0:45:16.719 --> 0:45:19.400 they're doing and to to to try and find the 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:23.279 problems in it. Uh So, uh, it's something to keep 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:26.000 in mind as we've moved forward. All Right, So let's 0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:28.160 come back to a figure that we've We've mentioned the 0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:32.279 name already, uh Ted Sirius. That's s c r I O. 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:37.120 S Is it serious or Sirius Sirius with Sirius, well 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:40.120 you say that, I'll say Sirius just to be confusing 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:45.520 like serious black. Um. So Sirius lived through two thousand six, 0:45:46.200 --> 0:45:49.160 and he claimed to be able to create thoutographs on 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:55.239 polaroid film. So, um, this is an interesting figure, um 0:45:55.760 --> 0:45:59.600 to say the least. So Um, I was reading a 0:45:59.640 --> 0:46:01.759 little bit about this in that in that book The 0:46:01.840 --> 0:46:06.920 Perfect Medium, paras psychologist Stephen E. Broad writes about him. 0:46:07.120 --> 0:46:11.759 Who Broad is also a philosophy professor, uh and he 0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:15.640 contends that sirius Is photography is perhaps the best documented 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:18.160 and perhaps the most impressive. Does he seem a little 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:23.319 uh sympathetic to maybe he he did have some psychic powers? Um. 0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:28.200 I mean, I encourage everyone to read uh Broad's work 0:46:28.320 --> 0:46:33.360 for themselves because he Um. He certainly is more inclined 0:46:33.640 --> 0:46:39.320 to to criticize some of the the individuals who have 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:43.239 been attributed as being like solid debunkers. At the very least, 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:47.359 he seems to be saying, look, whatever Ciris was doing, 0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:50.799 it's not nearly as debunked as you think it is. Um. 0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:53.360 And I'm and he is a paras psychologist. He is 0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:56.279 a paras psychologist. So so I gonna stress all of that, 0:46:57.040 --> 0:46:59.520 but it's still an interesting read. He does seem to 0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:04.080 be more climbed to um entertain the possibility though. So. 0:47:04.640 --> 0:47:08.440 Sirius was a Chicago bellhop who had experimented with with 0:47:08.560 --> 0:47:12.080 hypnosis and uh. He claims that during this time he 0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:14.960 found that he could use his mind to project images 0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:19.160 onto camera film and later instant polaroid film. And he 0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:22.480 apparently demonstrated this to various folks and was quite convincing. 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:26.480 And this caught the attention of Denver psychiatrist and researcher 0:47:26.800 --> 0:47:30.839 Jewel Eisenbud, who took a strong interest in his work 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:34.839 and conducted numerous trials, resulting in hundreds of images. Yeah, 0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:37.040 and I've read that Eisenbudd is one of the main 0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:40.239 reasons that people really know about Ted. Seriously, he sort 0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:42.759 of took up the cause like uh, or at least 0:47:42.800 --> 0:47:46.680 from what I read. Eisenbudd claimed he was initially skeptical 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:50.399 of Ted serious his abilities, but then after spending time 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:53.600 with him and seeing his photographs, he he came more 0:47:53.640 --> 0:47:55.920 and more to believe that these powers were real and 0:47:56.040 --> 0:47:59.440 that Serious really could project his mind's eye onto a 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:03.360 piece of holm. Yeah. Eisenbud at one point believed that 0:48:03.560 --> 0:48:08.320 Sirius was seeing the essentially remote viewing the surface of 0:48:08.400 --> 0:48:14.000 the Jovian moon Ghannamed and then using photography to implant 0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:17.680 that image on onto film. And it gets more complex 0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:21.400 than that, actually, because I was reading that so Sirius 0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:24.600 apparently made these images that Eisenbudd later said, oh, this 0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:27.760 is the surface of Ganymede, because he said that serious 0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:31.040 was very interested in space exploration and had been thinking 0:48:31.120 --> 0:48:34.040 about the voyager to probe, and that must have been 0:48:34.080 --> 0:48:37.040 what triggered his generation of this image of the surface 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:40.840 of of Ghanymede. But at the time he generated the image, 0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:44.719 the photographs from the voyager probe had not been taken yet. 0:48:45.320 --> 0:48:48.960 So I think Eisenbudd is suggesting that if these photos 0:48:49.000 --> 0:48:53.440 are real, serious actually not only projected his thoughts directly 0:48:53.480 --> 0:48:57.279 on the film, but also pre cognitively remote viewed the 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:03.200 surface of of Wait precognitiant. Well, I guess it wouldn't 0:49:03.200 --> 0:49:05.440 have mattered whether the voyager probe got there yet. He 0:49:05.600 --> 0:49:07.840 was seeing the surface of the moon before the probe 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:10.480 got there, right, And I've seen this in other, uh 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:14.279 you know, accounts of remote viewing, where they have they 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:18.520 have essentially seen other worlds or have encountered historic figures 0:49:18.640 --> 0:49:21.040 that sort of thing, Right, Now, another thing worth noting 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:24.759 about Cirios here is that is that even eisenbud like 0:49:25.080 --> 0:49:28.680 points out that that that ted it was definitely an 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:32.719 alcoholic and that's sort of part of the thing, but 0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:35.760 also displayed like a lot of you know, at times 0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:38.120 kind of like irrational behavior and seemed to have you know, 0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:43.880 definite uh you know, psychological issues. So but but anyway, 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:49.360 this was basically Sirius his process. So he generally he 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:54.160 needed to be drunk, generally very drunk to perform this art, 0:49:54.760 --> 0:49:57.040 which I mean, I guess that's fair enough, right, I mean, 0:49:57.480 --> 0:49:59.640 I mean, really even podcasting, I don't know when when 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:03.600 when we first started podcasting, um, Jerry told us, like, 0:50:03.680 --> 0:50:05.080 have a little to drink before you go into the 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:08.200 podcast booth, it'll help. Jerry ever told me that, oh 0:50:08.280 --> 0:50:10.880 well maybe maybe I just look like I needed to 0:50:10.960 --> 0:50:13.200 drink at the time. I don't know. But wait, are 0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:15.520 you serious? I'm serious? Yeah, I mean I think she's joking. 0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:19.359 But at any rate, like the idea that you would 0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:24.200 need a social lubricant too, essentially to perform something um 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:30.040 either you know, a legitimate psychic ability or to perform 0:50:30.160 --> 0:50:32.399 some sort of a trick, some sort of a um 0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:36.400 an illusion or even a confidence trick, right, um, so 0:50:36.560 --> 0:50:39.840 that's one part of it. Also, he preferred to hold 0:50:39.960 --> 0:50:42.640 a quota he called a gizmo in his hand to 0:50:42.760 --> 0:50:46.440 help him focus his powers. And it was a short, 0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:49.879 open cylinder about an inch in diameter. And of course 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:52.760 this is highly suspicious. You don't have to be Sherlock 0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:56.080 Holmes to suspect that the gizmo is either the heart 0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.360 of the trick that he is going to perform, or 0:50:59.480 --> 0:51:02.160 it's a d e cooy to distract onlookers from the 0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:06.160 actual trick. Because he'd often placed this in front of 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:09.439 the camera lens, like he'd get up into the into 0:51:09.480 --> 0:51:12.880 the camera lens with the gizmo and then also like 0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:15.880 you know, mugging for the camera, placing his forehead in 0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:19.880 the way and somehow using the gizmo allegedly to focus 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:22.640 his thoughts into the camera. Yeah, he said he needed 0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:25.640 to connect his body to the camera. Uh. Though there 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:28.279 are allegations also that he was able to produce the 0:51:28.320 --> 0:51:32.239 autographs and uh and and actually make images on a 0:51:32.320 --> 0:51:35.520 camera while being far away from the camera that at 0:51:35.600 --> 0:51:38.600 least as alleged, But he most of the time, it 0:51:38.680 --> 0:51:41.000 has said, would like put his forehead right on this 0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:43.839 thing and stick it in the camera camera lens. So, yeah, 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:47.040 raises some red flags, right, But but then the idea 0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:50.280 is that he's essentially taking a snapshot of the mental 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:53.120 image that he is forming in his mind, be a 0:51:53.280 --> 0:51:55.879 the be it a mental image that is formed via 0:51:56.000 --> 0:52:00.200 memory or just sort of general mental imaging, or it's 0:52:00.239 --> 0:52:03.440 something that is that he has acquired through um uh, 0:52:04.400 --> 0:52:07.120 you know, sending his consciousness to a to the moons 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:11.000 of Jupiter. Yeah. Now, I read some conflicting reports that 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:14.240 sometimes it seems like the images he produced, he claimed 0:52:14.280 --> 0:52:17.120 were like not what he was thinking about consciously, but 0:52:17.280 --> 0:52:20.680 just would be these unconscious kind of associative images. That's 0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:26.200 what's suggested by eisenbudd Uh the Galilean moon, right, is 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:28.600 that he just had the Voyager two probe on his 0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:31.400 mind and happened to generate an image of the surface 0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:33.920 of Ganymede. And so if we're approaching it from the 0:52:34.239 --> 0:52:36.319 you know, the pro psychic side, we can say, well, 0:52:36.360 --> 0:52:39.240 that makes sense. The mind is difficult to control. Mental 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:41.480 images may form in the mind that you you're not 0:52:41.640 --> 0:52:43.719 trying to summon. Certainly we can all attest to that. 0:52:44.040 --> 0:52:46.520 On the other hand, from a purely skeptical point of view, 0:52:46.800 --> 0:52:49.160 if you're going to be drawn in and put to 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:51.960 the test by asking, you know, being asked to think 0:52:52.040 --> 0:52:55.120 of a particular thing, how convenient would it be if 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:56.920 you could say, well, I tried to think of that 0:52:57.600 --> 0:52:59.600 that that bird feeder that you wanted me to imagine, 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:01.880 but I'm just so obsessed with space travel right now, 0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:04.959 I gave you Ganymede instead, right. I mean that makes 0:53:05.280 --> 0:53:08.640 that suggests that maybe you've already got an image of 0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:10.960 something that looks like a moon's surface on hand with 0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:13.239 you or something, right, And I guess that gets to 0:53:13.600 --> 0:53:15.640 what the actual trick would be, if there is a 0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:19.400 trick here, which I assume there probably is right now now. 0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:22.600 In that article in The Perfect Medium, a Broad certainly 0:53:22.680 --> 0:53:25.759 focuses on the aspects of Ted's art that kind of 0:53:25.800 --> 0:53:28.719 continue to mystify, as he mentions, for instance, that Eisenbudd 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:31.400 offered a cash reward for anyone able to replicate Ted's 0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:34.560 results quote under conditions similar to those prevailing during the 0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:37.400 during the experiments. Now I've read that there was serious 0:53:37.480 --> 0:53:41.839 dispute about like them negotiating with skeptics about what would 0:53:41.880 --> 0:53:45.360 be acceptable for those uh conditions, Like I think I 0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:48.719 read that James Randy wanted to try to replicate it, 0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:51.520 but that Eisenbudd said, well, you have to be really drunk, 0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:55.000 because Ted is always really drunk when he does it. Yeah. Yeah, 0:53:55.040 --> 0:53:58.480 the famous debunker James Randy, who we had the privilege 0:53:58.520 --> 0:54:02.680 to meet. Um. But last um, it definitely plays into 0:54:02.719 --> 0:54:05.799 some of this, and it's kind of if you if 0:54:05.840 --> 0:54:09.800 you read some of the more pro serios material, Randy's 0:54:09.840 --> 0:54:12.680 kind of portrayed as a villain. Oh all, Randy is 0:54:12.719 --> 0:54:16.320 always the villain of something written by pro psychic powers people. 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:20.360 Uh so, uh so, Yeah, some of these account like 0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:24.080 brought accountants to highlight the things that were not you know, 0:54:24.320 --> 0:54:29.239 they're still a little mysterious or or or certainly accounts 0:54:29.480 --> 0:54:34.440 of replications that don't meet the same degree of replication, 0:54:34.520 --> 0:54:37.120 Like you weren't able to do exactly what Sirius is doing, 0:54:37.360 --> 0:54:40.560 therefore you didn't fully debunk him. No, I've I've read 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:43.640 some of his defenders say, Okay, people have used tricks 0:54:43.800 --> 0:54:47.200 to replicate what Serious was doing, but they couldn't do 0:54:47.280 --> 0:54:51.960 it without those tricks being evident to people who were watching. Right. Um, 0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:53.719 I mean The other way to think about it is, 0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:58.240 can I can I paint the Mona Lisa? No? I cannot. 0:54:58.560 --> 0:55:02.759 Can I demonstrate some of the techniques personally that that 0:55:03.320 --> 0:55:07.000 that the artists used to create the Mona Lisa? Uh? Certainly, Uh, 0:55:08.120 --> 0:55:10.640 we have to take it into account. That's sirius assuming 0:55:10.719 --> 0:55:13.440 again that he's not a psychic, that he's not a 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:19.040 not capable of photography, that he's just a performer, an illusionist. Uh, 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:21.799 you know, a trickster. Uh. There is still an art 0:55:21.880 --> 0:55:23.880 to what he is doing. Uh, there is still a 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:27.200 performance aspect, of charismatic aspect to it. And there are 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:30.200 aspects of that that are going to depend in part 0:55:30.280 --> 0:55:34.680 on like innate charisma, but also in in practice, in 0:55:35.000 --> 0:55:39.400 in like sheer devotion to to the trick. And I 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:42.200 think you can't discount that. And on likewise, you can't 0:55:42.239 --> 0:55:46.520 expect a debunker to rise to that level of performance. Well, 0:55:46.560 --> 0:55:48.320 I guess you can expect them to try. But I 0:55:48.360 --> 0:55:51.680 mean that's one thing that you know, as long as 0:55:51.760 --> 0:55:56.319 we're probing the depths of the unexplained, you could say, well, 0:55:56.520 --> 0:55:58.719 you know, there's some kind of mystical power that this 0:55:58.840 --> 0:56:00.680 person has that we just don't have the power to 0:56:00.760 --> 0:56:03.640 explain it. Or you could say that there's an extreme 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:07.240 talent this person has for performing a trick that hasn't 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:09.799 been explained yet. Yeah, because certainly one of the things 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:11.920 that would come into play is slight of hand, right, 0:56:12.000 --> 0:56:17.600 because the main charge is that is that Sirius had it. 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:19.560 Kind of varies. Sometimes they talk of just using the 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:24.200 microfilm um or using microfilm affixed to a marble or 0:56:24.719 --> 0:56:27.120 you know, a film affixed to the end of a 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:30.440 tiny tube to be like inside the quote gizmo that 0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:33.160 he put up against the camera. Because that's the obvious, right, 0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:35.680 is that the gizmo contains something, and if it contains something, 0:56:36.320 --> 0:56:39.160 some film would be ideal because then you have that 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:42.239 pre existing photograph that can be the thing that he 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:47.839 imprints UM. Skeptic Terence Hines also charged that Ted used 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:51.120 a secondary tube about one inch long with a tiny 0:56:51.200 --> 0:56:54.160 magnifying lens that could hold a small slide, and then 0:56:54.200 --> 0:56:57.160 he would conceal this within the gizmo, but also he 0:56:57.200 --> 0:56:59.520 could use it when the gizmo was taken away. Again 0:56:59.600 --> 0:57:02.280 getting an of that idea that the gizmos not merely 0:57:02.400 --> 0:57:07.360 useful as something to um to hide the trick but 0:57:07.440 --> 0:57:09.520 also can be used as a distraction, can be the 0:57:09.600 --> 0:57:11.600 thing that, oh, when it's taken away, look I can 0:57:11.640 --> 0:57:14.239 still do it. I don't even have the gizmo on me, right, 0:57:14.360 --> 0:57:16.920 And it was alleged that sometimes he could, I mean 0:57:17.040 --> 0:57:19.760 usually he used the gizmo, but it's alleged that sometimes 0:57:19.800 --> 0:57:22.320 he did it without the gizmo. Now, there were a 0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:24.960 number of expose a s at the time that claimed 0:57:25.000 --> 0:57:28.200 to show that Ted Sirius was a fraud. The entry 0:57:28.240 --> 0:57:30.880 in the Skeptics Dictionary by Robert Todd Carroll suggests that 0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:34.840 two amateur magicians and photographers named Charlie Reynolds and David 0:57:35.000 --> 0:57:40.160 Eisendraft exposed Serious as a fraud. Basically, they wouldn't spend 0:57:40.200 --> 0:57:42.520 a weekend with him and jewel Iz and Bud, and 0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:45.160 they saw his stuff and they they came to the 0:57:45.200 --> 0:57:47.320 conclusion that he was a fraud and wrote this up 0:57:47.360 --> 0:57:50.680 in the article. And Reynolds and Eisendraft claimed to have 0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:56.200 spotted Serious quote slipping something inside his little gizmo before demonstrations, 0:57:56.600 --> 0:57:58.640 and they think it was a picture of something that 0:57:58.760 --> 0:58:02.000 Sirius wanted to show up in the camera exposure. They 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:05.760 also published an article explaining their findings in in October 0:58:05.880 --> 0:58:10.440 nineteen sixty seven issue of Popular Photography of Photography magazine. Now, 0:58:10.560 --> 0:58:14.480 according to the skeptic investigator Joe Nichols account of Serious 0:58:14.560 --> 0:58:17.800 is confrontation with magicians and sleight of hand experts. Quote, 0:58:18.040 --> 0:58:21.320 at one point during the session, after an exposure was made, 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:24.520 a magician asked to examine the paper tube to see 0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:27.080 if there was anything inside. This would be the gizmo, right, 0:58:27.160 --> 0:58:30.560 the gizmo. Uh. Serious backed away, putting his hand in 0:58:30.680 --> 0:58:35.040 his pocket. Now that's suspicious behavior. But then, weirdly, during 0:58:35.120 --> 0:58:38.400 this session, Sirius was unable to produce the autographs. So 0:58:38.440 --> 0:58:40.880 apparently he had been using the gizmo. They said, let 0:58:40.960 --> 0:58:43.040 me see the gizmo, he wouldn't show it to them, 0:58:43.080 --> 0:58:45.120 and then none of the pictures came out. Anyway, there 0:58:45.160 --> 0:58:48.680 were no autographs. Uh. And he and Eisenbudd blamed the 0:58:48.760 --> 0:58:52.560 quote hostile atmosphere for interfering with Serious his powers. This 0:58:52.680 --> 0:58:55.800 is always a red flag also, I think. But there's 0:58:55.840 --> 0:58:58.160 still plenty of people, I think, who hold out for 0:58:58.240 --> 0:59:02.080 psychic photography, claiming that Head Serious his powers were real 0:59:02.320 --> 0:59:05.480 and could not be explained. And he's got defenders who 0:59:05.600 --> 0:59:09.040 say that some of his feats are just impossible to explain. 0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:12.200 For example, I was reading claims in an article in 0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:14.720 the Chronicle of Higher Education which was about a gallery 0:59:14.800 --> 0:59:17.800 exhibit of Serious as thotographs, which I would like to 0:59:17.840 --> 0:59:21.120 see that. Oh yeah, I mean they're interesting images, certainly 0:59:21.160 --> 0:59:23.480 when you know the background for them, especially if you 0:59:23.560 --> 0:59:25.280 just think about him as works of art, not as 0:59:25.360 --> 0:59:28.439 like displays of real psychic powers. Um. But to quote 0:59:28.440 --> 0:59:31.320 from this article quote, on occasion, volunteers were asked to 0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:34.520 attend the experiment with a photograph sealed and a cardboard 0:59:34.600 --> 0:59:38.240 back to manila envelope. Serious then managed to reproduce the 0:59:38.320 --> 0:59:41.200 image with no prior knowledge of it. So again, that's 0:59:41.240 --> 0:59:44.480 like double psychic powers. That's not just the thoughtography, which 0:59:44.520 --> 0:59:46.800 would be a feat even if he was looking directly 0:59:46.840 --> 0:59:49.880 at what the photo should be. UM. But also, I 0:59:49.920 --> 0:59:52.760 guess seeing into this envelope if I'm reading that right, 0:59:52.800 --> 0:59:54.840 I don't know. That might also be suggesting that they 0:59:54.920 --> 0:59:56.920 just arrived with its sealed and then showed it to 0:59:57.040 --> 1:00:00.120 him and he reproduced it. Either way, I mean, you 1:00:00.160 --> 1:00:02.400 saw that. I wouldn't say that would prove it was real, 1:00:02.480 --> 1:00:04.600 but that would be impressive, you know, you'd be like, wow, 1:00:04.640 --> 1:00:08.160 that that's either real or some impressive trickery. I'd leaned 1:00:08.160 --> 1:00:11.320 towards the ladder um. But in other cases he apparently 1:00:11.360 --> 1:00:14.080 managed to produce what appeared to be images of landmarks 1:00:14.160 --> 1:00:17.480 from up above, like aerial views that his supporters claimed 1:00:17.560 --> 1:00:20.920 could not be explained through trickery. But it seems like 1:00:21.000 --> 1:00:24.120 he stopped doing his thing after the late nineteen sixties, 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:26.720 which seems a little weird. Yeah, especially consider he lived 1:00:27.120 --> 1:00:29.439 until two thousand and six. You know, I mean, that's 1:00:29.520 --> 1:00:31.920 that's a lot of time to not at least not 1:00:32.000 --> 1:00:36.520 be publicly doing this displaying this uh this ability. Uh. 1:00:36.840 --> 1:00:38.920 But then again, um, you know, we do have to 1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:43.040 come back to you the fact that Eisenbud himself wrote 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:47.440 that serious was you know, psychologically disturbed alcoholic. So you know, 1:00:48.400 --> 1:00:50.560 you can come up with various, you know, reasons that 1:00:50.720 --> 1:00:54.200 somebody with that kind of with with with those kind 1:00:54.200 --> 1:00:57.440 of demons would not engage in their art. Now, he 1:00:58.040 --> 1:01:00.320 wasn't the only one in the later twentie tree to 1:01:00.320 --> 1:01:02.600 get in on the psychic photography thing. Over the years, 1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:06.560 a lot of figures, including Uri Geller, got into psychic photography. 1:01:06.880 --> 1:01:10.080 One one of Geller's many demonstrations was that he would 1:01:10.160 --> 1:01:12.920 leave the lens cap on a camera, placed the camera 1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:15.760 to his forehead, and then take a picture, supposedly saying, 1:01:15.920 --> 1:01:17.680 you know the same kind of thing. I'm using my 1:01:17.800 --> 1:01:20.840 mind's eye to imprint upon the film, and then the 1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:24.160 photo would reveal whatever he had been imagining. Again, James 1:01:24.240 --> 1:01:26.840 Randy shows up, as he often does whenever Uri Geller 1:01:26.920 --> 1:01:31.000 claims something. James Randy criticized this and other psychic photography 1:01:31.120 --> 1:01:35.040 is having two main explanations, either using a handheld device 1:01:35.160 --> 1:01:37.440 to project the image into the camera lens as the 1:01:37.480 --> 1:01:41.840 photos taken, or loading the camera with pre exposed film 1:01:42.040 --> 1:01:45.360 already bearing the desired image, and the latter seems to 1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:48.920 be the case with a later twentieth century alleged psychic 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:53.080 named Matsuaki Kyota, who claimed to be able to produce 1:01:53.160 --> 1:01:56.480 photographs on film again, and skeptical critics such as Joe 1:01:56.560 --> 1:01:59.760 Nicol have pointed out that when Matsuaki Kyota was asked 1:01:59.800 --> 1:02:03.960 to reform his thoughtography under controlled conditions for a TV 1:02:04.520 --> 1:02:07.680 crew in London, he couldn't produce the images, and Nickel 1:02:07.720 --> 1:02:10.320 claims that it was only times when he was able 1:02:10.960 --> 1:02:14.880 uh to get the film and have it alone with him, 1:02:15.120 --> 1:02:17.120 like basically to get hold of the film and have 1:02:17.280 --> 1:02:20.160 it in a private place before the test that he 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:23.280 could demonstrate his powers, which again makes you think he 1:02:23.400 --> 1:02:25.520 was doing something to the film before it was loaded 1:02:25.560 --> 1:02:28.280 in the camera. Alright, Well, on that note, we are 1:02:28.320 --> 1:02:31.720 going to have to call it for episode one of 1:02:31.840 --> 1:02:34.560 this exploration, but we are going to return in a 1:02:34.640 --> 1:02:38.160 second episode where we're going to continue to explore this idea, 1:02:38.320 --> 1:02:41.560 like how would it work if this were possible? Like 1:02:41.720 --> 1:02:45.400 what what what can we grasp onto in the labyrinth 1:02:45.480 --> 1:02:48.680 of the human mind and the complexity of our our 1:02:48.800 --> 1:02:52.960 our sensory perception, but also what can this question reveal 1:02:53.080 --> 1:02:56.360 about the reality of mental imagery and how that happens 1:02:56.400 --> 1:03:00.640 in the brain, which is fascinating, mysterious, and even spooky 1:03:00.720 --> 1:03:03.200 topic on its own, even though we don't necessarily credit 1:03:03.280 --> 1:03:06.320 the reality of psychic photography, there's a lot of spooky 1:03:06.360 --> 1:03:09.480 stuff going on when you picture something right. And we'll 1:03:09.520 --> 1:03:11.680 probably talk about The Ring a little bit more, and 1:03:11.760 --> 1:03:15.480 we'll probably bring up a few other films such as Scanners, 1:03:16.360 --> 1:03:18.760 So hey, be sure to tune in for that episode, 1:03:18.760 --> 1:03:20.600 and tune in for all of our episodes in October, 1:03:20.720 --> 1:03:24.320 which are going to be Halloween flavored uh and we 1:03:24.440 --> 1:03:26.760 encourage you again to check out Invention if you haven't already, 1:03:26.800 --> 1:03:28.680 can find it wherever you get your podcast. You can 1:03:28.720 --> 1:03:31.920 find out the website at invention pod dot com. If 1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:33.400 you want to support our show, the best thing you 1:03:33.400 --> 1:03:35.120 can do is rate and review it wherever you have 1:03:35.200 --> 1:03:37.360 the power to do so, and make sure you have subscribed. 1:03:37.600 --> 1:03:40.840 Huge thanks as always to our awesome audio producer Seth 1:03:40.960 --> 1:03:43.280 Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 1:03:43.320 --> 1:03:45.400 with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 1:03:45.520 --> 1:03:48.040 to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hello, 1:03:48.400 --> 1:03:51.200 you can email us at contact at stuff to blow 1:03:51.280 --> 1:04:01.000 your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 1:04:01.040 --> 1:04:03.360 a production of iHeart Radios. How stuff Works. For more 1:04:03.400 --> 1:04:05.800 podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 1:04:05.960 --> 1:04:08.560 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.