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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for

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Speaker 1: tuning in. Let's give it up for the super producer

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Speaker 1: of this episode and our show, mister Max Williams.

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Speaker 2: What to the what our personal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they call him il Papa. This is an interesting episode, GIRNL.

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Speaker 2: I'm ben.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about a something that has I think continually

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Speaker 1: fascinated all three of us, especially our research associate Jeff.

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Speaker 2: Micro nations right, not to be confused with Micronesia, which

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Speaker 2: is not a micronation.

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Speaker 1: No, that's just a nation of very tiny island tiny people.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because it's not that far away from the

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Speaker 1: part of the world where real life hobbits once existed,

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Speaker 1: the Shire Homo Ah, yes, of course, guys.

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Speaker 3: I have a question. Let's try do this off memory.

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Speaker 3: What micronations have we done this for? So I'll start

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Speaker 3: off Andorra.

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Speaker 2: And doors where they make all the mink coats. No,

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Speaker 2: that's Angora, sorry, Andre is a kind of coat, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and doors where you go to buy cigarettes and

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Speaker 3: booze tax free.

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Speaker 1: It's the duty free shop of the world. And uh,

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Speaker 1: it's San Marino. That was just seven hills.

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Speaker 2: Ye who live in the cave. That's yeah. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to be really great at this game. Ya, we're nailing it.

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Speaker 2: I think we got one more. We got Monaco.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I don't even Monaco. It's like a set dressing

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Speaker 1: for James bonsor.

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Speaker 2: It really is. It is indeed, And if I could

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Speaker 2: use this an opportunity for a personal plug. This podcast

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Speaker 2: that I've been working on about the Rolling Stones Exile

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Speaker 2: on Main Street record, which they made in the South

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Speaker 2: of France, which is a very near Monico, has a

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Speaker 2: song on it called Tumbling Dice that is specifically a

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Speaker 2: reference to all of the debauched gambling hijinks that take

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Speaker 2: place in Monaco by the wealthy and powerful.

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Speaker 1: Now lest we sound like we're disparaging any of these

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Speaker 1: micro nations, we just want to shout out any tourism

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Speaker 1: board listening, we would love to go take us. We

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Speaker 1: will go to Monaco. Max Love's Dice, Noel, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you and I are big gamblers.

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Speaker 2: I got dice in my pocket right now. Oline. Check

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Speaker 2: this out? Whoa you think I'm played? My sides?

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Speaker 1: You got? I've got my dungeons and dragons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can hear them. You can hear them. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: tip you tap him. Let's see what we roll for now.

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Speaker 2: I can't. I can't. Okay, we're not. We're just gonna say,

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Speaker 2: all twenties, is that a skilled check? Is what you

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Speaker 2: call that? That's all I know. Obviously I am not

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Speaker 2: a D and D guy that I have been very

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Speaker 2: much enjoying the new Legend of Zelda game, Tears of

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Speaker 2: the Kingdom, which has some very Shire like locations in him.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for Balder's Gate three, Balderdash three, Balder's Gate.

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Speaker 2: Ah, okay, it's the It's it.

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Speaker 1: Has nothing to do with today's episode.

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Speaker 2: But tell us what you think.

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Speaker 1: Vatican City, man, I've always wanted to go.

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Speaker 2: Well, Balder's Gate is believe centered around the infernal powers

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Speaker 2: of the damned.

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Speaker 1: It's based on dungeons and dragons, right, yeah, right, evil stuff.

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Speaker 1: I've never played it, our pal Matt said the controls

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Speaker 1: on the other ones were a little clunky, but you

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Speaker 1: know me, man, I can only play like one game

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Speaker 1: at a time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like reading a book. Vatican City, though, is

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Speaker 2: in fact a bastion of defense against the infernal powers

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Speaker 2: of Balder's Gate and dungeons. What a segue, noll.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's absolutely true. The Vatican has a distinct has

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Speaker 1: a distinction that not a lot of other religions get,

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Speaker 1: which is it is a country all its own. So

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Speaker 1: there's Italy, you know, Rome, Florence, et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: and then there's Vatican City, which is totally different. They

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Speaker 1: have their own passports, they get all the stuff you

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Speaker 1: would imagine country should have.

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Speaker 2: And like there are regular civilians that live there somehow, right.

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Speaker 1: Interesting you say that because obviously most of their population

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Speaker 1: is Catholic clergy, but there are non clergy members who

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Speaker 1: live there.

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Speaker 2: The Swiss guards, okay, only the Swiss guards, so no,

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Speaker 2: like janitorial staff like those those folks have to live

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Speaker 2: outside of the city, and then I guess they commute

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Speaker 2: in or do they have their own internal staff that

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Speaker 2: are actually holy the holy holy janitors. By the way,

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Speaker 2: I think we've mentioned this before on the show, but

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Speaker 2: the idea of the Holy See has always been very

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Speaker 2: fascinating and elusive to me because it's spelled see. I

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Speaker 2: think we talked about dead in San Marino. That's right.

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Speaker 2: I like it they give me for being redundant, but

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Speaker 2: that is a theme. I've always found that term to

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Speaker 2: be very interesting, and I think we got to the

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Speaker 2: bottom of it last time. But just as a refresher,

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Speaker 2: what is the Holy See and how does it figure

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Speaker 2: into what Vatican City is?

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Speaker 1: The Holy See is put simply the jurisdiction of the Pope,

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Speaker 1: because the Pope is also the Bishop of Rome. And

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Speaker 1: the word the etymology is not as cool as I

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Speaker 1: had hoped, honestly, because c comes from the Latin set

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Speaker 1: as I want to say, sedes, which meant seat or

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Speaker 1: means seat, so basically it's they're saying a holy seat,

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Speaker 1: but it's fancy and confused.

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Speaker 2: Well, that makes perfect sense, right. So Vatican City, as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, is in fact was set up as the

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Speaker 2: seat of the Catholic Church. And I guess the whole

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Speaker 2: is that the same as the Holy Roman Empire.

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Speaker 1: It is not the same thing.

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Speaker 2: It's not the same, Okay, forget I even said anything

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Speaker 2: seat of the Catholic Church, the Catholic faith. And it

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Speaker 2: was in fact initiated with the construction of what is

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Speaker 2: called a basilica, which I guess kind of a fancy mausoleum.

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Speaker 2: Or at the very least, it's like a fancy structure

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Speaker 2: meant to house the bones of Saint Peter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, upon whom this rock was founded, right, the

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Speaker 1: rock of the church, the like founding the church. So

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Speaker 1: his grave, like you said, Noles in Rome, the basilicas

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Speaker 1: made in the fourth century CE or AD, whichever you prefer.

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Speaker 1: The area became a really popular tourist site, well pilgrimage site,

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Speaker 1: but you see what we're saying, And eventually it was

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Speaker 1: abandoned for a time because the papal court had what

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Speaker 1: we in production call.

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Speaker 2: A company move.

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Speaker 1: They relocated to France in thirteen oh nine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting choice. But then eventually in thirteen seventy seven

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Speaker 2: the church did return and several other very important historical

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Speaker 2: landmarks were constructed, including the Sistine Chapel we know about

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Speaker 2: that one, very fancy ceiling there we'll get into, and

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Speaker 2: the Apostolic Palace, as well as don't call it a comeback,

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Speaker 2: the new Saint Peter's Basilica. These were all constructed within

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Speaker 2: the bounds of Vatican City and the current form what

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Speaker 2: we know Vatican City as today. Being a sovereign nation,

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Speaker 2: a micronation actually was established in nineteen twenty nine, super

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Speaker 2: relatively recently, with the signing of something called the Latan Pacts.

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Speaker 1: Yes, hopefully everybody listening is going, ah, yes, the Pacts,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think either of us were aware of

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Speaker 1: that at first. This is coming to us from a

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Speaker 1: Great History dot Com article, which is basically there. It's

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Speaker 1: like their dictionary entry on Vatican City.

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Speaker 2: Pretty cool too. If you look at sort of this,

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Speaker 2: I guess the city square really more of a circle

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Speaker 2: kind of, you know, it looks like what do you

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Speaker 2: call this the parentheses, you know, where there's a giant

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Speaker 2: sort of obelisk in the middle, and I guess what

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Speaker 2: is the building that is of the feature that sort

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Speaker 2: of looks like the state capitol, the capital of the

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Speaker 2: United States with a dome.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's that's the cost code.

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Speaker 2: Okay, cool. Yeah, they definitely styled on it. It's got

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Speaker 2: a really you know, it's sort of like when you're

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Speaker 2: in New York City and you see you know, a

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Speaker 2: city bank or a freaking you know, a CVS and

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Speaker 2: it looks like some kind of like crazy old columns,

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Speaker 2: you know, for art. It's theayne reed. It is, in

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Speaker 2: fact not the cost code, is not. They don't have

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Speaker 2: room Saint Peter's Dome. I believe this has what it's

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Speaker 2: referred to as Saint Peter's Basilica. The feature that I'm

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Speaker 2: describing is in fact Saint Peter's Dome. But this is

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Speaker 2: where you know, the masses, these pilgrims that you're talking

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Speaker 2: about will come to you know, see uh an appearance

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Speaker 2: by the Pope where he'll come out on some kind

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Speaker 2: of little balcony and hold up his little two fingers

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Speaker 2: a little peace sign and make some sort of holy declaration,

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Speaker 2: and it's you know, it absolutely gets jammed. You know.

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Speaker 2: The image on History dot COM's article shows an absolutely

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Speaker 2: packed house.

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Speaker 1: And if you go to travel guides like row Wise

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Speaker 1: shout out to Alisa Bernard and Alessandro bisaically you can

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Speaker 1: you can see really cool stuff you can do in

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Speaker 1: the city.

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Speaker 2: I did not know this.

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Speaker 1: You can climb the dome of Saint Peter's Basilica.

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Speaker 2: Oh awesome. If I wasn't afraid of heights, I would

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, what if we take a hot air balloon and

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Speaker 1: you a rope ladder?

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Speaker 2: Know you in for this? Absolutely great?

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Speaker 3: No, you're supposed to be You're supposed to be on

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Speaker 3: my side when it comes to heights stuff.

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Speaker 2: No, No, I'm okay. I'm relatively okay with Hestevan. You know,

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Speaker 2: I love a heist, so I'll be the bag man

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Speaker 2: and you can shame me me up well on the face.

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Speaker 2: So I have to be somewhere else. Anyways. How's your Italian? Oh? Perfect?

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Speaker 2: Oh great? Cool.

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Speaker 1: I'm persuaded by the way you answered in English, so

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Speaker 1: from the don't feel bad by it.

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Speaker 2: It's terrible.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually, as you guys know, I'm spending some time

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Speaker 1: in Italy pretty soon.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not going to be at the Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that either. I'm not going to be at

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Speaker 1: Vatican City.

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Speaker 2: Okay, no, we can, we can. We can chat about

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Speaker 2: this offline. The founding of Rome round eight hundred BCE

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Speaker 2: through the very end of what is known as the

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Speaker 2: Roman Republic forty four BCE, the name of the area

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Speaker 2: that is now referred to as Vatican City was Ager

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Speaker 2: or Ager Vaticanas, which is located on a hill on

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Speaker 2: the west bank of the Tiber River. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And if you go to Vatican City now, of course,

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Speaker 1: for Catholics and non Catholics alike, this is one of

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Speaker 1: the world's most popular, most prestigious tourist destinations. Just it's

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Speaker 1: simply the seat of so much history. It might surprise

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Speaker 1: some of us to learn that this wasn't always the case.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of a dull neighborhood for a while

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Speaker 1: because it was close to another city, an Etruscan city

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Speaker 1: named They, and it also had some geographical problems. The

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Speaker 1: thing about rivers like the Tiber is they flood.

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Speaker 2: Right, you'd want to get flood insurance, or if that

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Speaker 2: was a thing back then, someone would be trying to

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Speaker 2: sell it to you. The Tiber River, as you said,

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Speaker 2: the banks would overflow and those waters would flood the city.

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Speaker 2: But after first century AD, Vaticanus became the term to

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Speaker 2: describe this area. It referred to the area that today

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Speaker 2: is the site of Saint Peter's Square. We described with

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Speaker 2: all the you know, lookie Louse and Vatican Hill, and

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Speaker 2: also an area known as a Via della consilazione. I

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Speaker 2: hope I did that relative justice.

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Speaker 1: Oh we are not obviously native Italian speakers, folks, Thank you,

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Speaker 1: We're doing our best.

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Speaker 2: We mean no offense. Quock question, do you have to

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Speaker 2: show your Catholic credentials? Your bona fides no to be allowed,

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Speaker 2: not like Mecca. Okay, yeah, well that's the thing in

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Speaker 2: Mecca there are.

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Speaker 1: You cannot enter. You're not supposed to enter Mecca if

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Speaker 1: you are not of the Muslim faith.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So they relatively speaking, welcome secular tourism.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, of course. I mean think about all

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Speaker 1: the reporters who come there from around the world all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: Very right point. But i'd imagine, you know, given it

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Speaker 2: being the seat of the Catholic Church and so many

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Speaker 2: Catholic officials of the highest order, security is probably pretty tight.

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Speaker 2: So tight.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is a well the best way to put it,

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Speaker 1: and this is kind of an ugly thing, but we

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Speaker 1: have to admit it is that there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who, for one reason or another, will attempt

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Speaker 1: acts of violence against it. You know, we can't forget

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Speaker 1: that the Catholic Church, however imperfect, it's been as a

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Speaker 1: political entity as a lot of ongoing problems. It also

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Speaker 1: people of the Catholic faith have been targeted before in

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Speaker 1: the past, you know, so because the pope is an

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Speaker 1: historic world leader, there are assassination So you're making a

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Speaker 1: great point about security.

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Speaker 2: Again, this wasn't always the way.

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Speaker 1: If it wasn't for this historical figure, Agrippina the Elder,

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Speaker 1: then it may well have just stayed a marsh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it's sank into the swamp. Yeah yeah, yeah, great

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Speaker 2: big tracks of land. I'm sorry, I'm being a Monty

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Speaker 2: Python Nord. That's true. Agrippina the Elder, which is a

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Speaker 2: baller name, had this kind of you know, swampy marshland

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Speaker 2: drained and had it landscaped beautifully, you know, with gardens.

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Speaker 2: And then her son a fellow. You might have heard

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Speaker 2: of a little guy by the name of Caligula. Oh yeah, yeah, real, real,

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Speaker 2: stand up, fella. Watch the movie. It's basically pornography. It was,

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Speaker 2: I believe, if I'm not mistaken, produced by the publisher

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Speaker 2: of Penthouse magazine or one of the highly X rated

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Speaker 2: you know, sub playboy Nudi mags of the time. I

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Speaker 2: forget the guy's name, but there are serious acts portrayed

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Speaker 2: in this film. And also portrayed in the film is

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Speaker 2: and Ber Caligula, of course, played by Malcolm McDowell. It's

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Speaker 2: a very interesting film. It is an artifact of the time.

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Speaker 2: There's really nothing else quite like it. It's got some

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Speaker 2: really elaborate death scenes involving like weird contraptions that there's

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Speaker 2: a part where people are buried up to their necks

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Speaker 2: in the ground and then this like weird lawnmower buzzsaw

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Speaker 2: thing just chops all their heads off.

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Speaker 1: There are multiple versions of that film because it was

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Speaker 1: so controversial. Yeah, Bob Gucciote, right, I.

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Speaker 2: Think that's right. But Caligula wanted to make this a

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Speaker 2: site for kind of chariot competitions in the garden, so

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Speaker 2: he actually built what's called a circus, like Circus Maximus,

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Speaker 2: right like that, which is really more just like a

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Speaker 2: hippodrome kind of situation.

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Speaker 1: It's like a public venue for performance.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And so this work, this we results in the obelisk

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Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier, The obelisk in Saint Peter's Square

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Speaker 1: was taken by Caligula from Egypt just to flex to

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Speaker 1: decorate the circus, and eventually Nero completes this huge public work.

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Speaker 2: Another great fellow, Oh yeah, class act, that great violinist too.

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Speaker 2: It turns out that's just the wind motivated the longest

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Speaker 2: stuff was burning. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I still think we should do an episode on the

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Speaker 1: crazy eccentricities of Roman emperors. And how much of that

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Speaker 1: is fact and how much is fiction.

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Speaker 2: We did one of ways back remember the little Nippers.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, those kids swim and and.

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Speaker 2: Was that anyway we'll get we'll get back to it.

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Speaker 1: But the point is this has a lot of history

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Speaker 1: even in its formation. That obelisk is from Egypt. Nero,

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Speaker 1: again being a super class act, doesn't have the idea.

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Speaker 1: Originally he completes the work and people start calling at

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Speaker 1: the circus of Nero. This becomes a martyrdom site for

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Speaker 1: a lot of Christians, including Saint Peter, and it's right,

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Speaker 1: and they're very very upfront about the history in that

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Speaker 1: regard to their credit. Like you can get we're getting

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Speaker 1: some of this information from the tourism site for the Vatican.

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Speaker 2: Very similar to what you'll see if you go to

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Speaker 2: Berlin or other like German kind of museum cities. You know,

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Speaker 2: there are lots of references to the Holocaust, and they're

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Speaker 2: very open about you know, how many very very bad

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Speaker 2: people donated some very very important works of art, and

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Speaker 2: wings of museums and areas of cities were named after

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Speaker 2: you know, bona fide anti semis, you know, your high

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Speaker 2: ups in the Nazi party so I think it's always

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Speaker 2: interesting when a problematic culture does their very best to

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Speaker 2: own up to their problematic past. Absolutely, there's a why

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Speaker 2: this like clean, but it's it's a start. Can I

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Speaker 2: tell you something crazy before we move on? I had

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Speaker 2: a interesting conversation. I saw an interesting conversation with some

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Speaker 2: folks on Twitter or x whatever.

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Speaker 1: Right, folks wore an audio podcasts should have seen the

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Speaker 1: headshakes we all made. But anyway, on that platform, someone

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Speaker 1: showed me that in reaction to the Oppenheimer film in Japan,

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Speaker 1: several Japanese meme posters will try to make yeah offensive

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Speaker 1: joke nine to eleven, and they didn't realize Americans will go,

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Speaker 1: well is it?

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Speaker 2: Is it a funny joke? That's the memes that Americans

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Speaker 2: love you, and we already probably well ahead of them

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Speaker 2: in that particular game. You know it's been done. But

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Speaker 2: I mentioned Nero fiddling while Rome was burning, or at

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Speaker 2: least I alluded to that. That is an image that

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Speaker 2: is often conjured, you know, and referring to this individual

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Speaker 2: because it is said, or at least it is believed

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Speaker 2: by many that he himself started a massive fire in

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Speaker 2: sixty four CE that destroyed more than two thirds of

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Speaker 2: the city and then blamed it on the Christians.

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Speaker 1: And his secret his conspiracy, according again to the story,

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Speaker 1: is that he did this so he could first get

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Speaker 1: rid of these pesky political activists, which is what Christians

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Speaker 1: were becoming in his mind, these dissidents, and then secondly,

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Speaker 1: so he could rebuild the city in his image. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to construct something called the domus Aria or Golden House,

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Speaker 1: and like you say, persecutes Christians as scapegoats. Again, according

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Speaker 1: to the legend, he has said to have ordered the

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Speaker 1: murder of Saint Peter. And it's true that after Rome

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Speaker 1: was leveled in this fire eighty sixty four, however it started,

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Speaker 1: Nero executed Saint Peter, along with many other members of

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Speaker 1: the Christian faith.

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Speaker 2: But as we know, you can't really kill an idea,

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Speaker 2: and oftentimes when you kill someone that represents the heart

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Speaker 2: of an idea, you just serve to further bolster that idea.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like the streisand effect we talk about

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Speaker 2: often the idea of the moment you start to try

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Speaker 2: to wipe something off the Internet that's in the Internet

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Speaker 2: really starts to dig in and like push that stuff

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Speaker 2: out even more.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, they rise again stronger. So something

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Speaker 1: interesting happens on the way to the present day.

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Speaker 2: Emperor.

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Speaker 1: Constantine the first converts to Christianity, and this is evidenced

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Speaker 1: by the Edict of Milan in three thirteen AD or

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Speaker 1: again CE and so he starts he's the one who

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Speaker 1: makes the Basilica. Like, after all these Christians get executed,

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Speaker 1: including Saint Peter, there's an acropolis at the base of

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Speaker 1: Vatican Hill, and Constantine is the one who orders the

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Speaker 1: construction of the basilica over the tomb in three twenty

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Speaker 1: four very old architecture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, and it's always so interesting. Man. Constantine

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Speaker 2: is such an important figure in all of this because,

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Speaker 2: I mean again, Romans were virilin the anti christian as

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Speaker 2: we've discussed, and then all of a sudden there's a

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Speaker 2: sea change, not a holy sea change, it's a regular

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Speaker 2: sea change spelled I believe s A in this case.

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Speaker 2: But that's all thanks to Constantine. And then all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden he's like flipping everybody. We're left and right,

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Speaker 2: you know, by edict to Christianity. And that is what

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Speaker 2: leads more or less to this area becoming this sort

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Speaker 2: of sanctified seat of the Catholic Faith, all based around

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Speaker 2: the supposed site of Saint Peter's burial.

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Speaker 1: Ding Ding Ding supposed believe that's right site. Yeah. The palace, conversely,

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Speaker 1: is constructed in the fifth century during the papacy of

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Speaker 1: Pope Samachus.

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Speaker 2: Sorry picture like him walking around slapping people in the face.

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Speaker 1: I know his name, yeahs Smacus was here.

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Speaker 2: In between three eighteen and three twenty two, the very

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Speaker 2: first church, Saint Old Peters Basilica, started in Earnest Again.

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Speaker 2: This became a site for Christian pilgrims, then became sort

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Speaker 2: of a housing situation for high level clergymen, and also

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Speaker 2: eventually they built a marketplace that was kind of a

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Speaker 2: really bustling side of trade, you know, for the region

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Speaker 2: known as the District of Borgo. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when you get a lot of tourists,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you get crime. So pirates attacked damage Saint Peter's

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Speaker 1: in eight forty six. This caused Pope Leo the fourth

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Speaker 1: to say, build a wall. We got to build a

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Speaker 1: wall to keep the pirates out. We want to protect

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Speaker 1: our holy structures. And this was you know, at the time,

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Speaker 1: this was a pretty good and smart defensive.

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Speaker 2: Measure indeed, And I just want to make a quick,

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Speaker 2: a little behind the curtain thing. I sometimes listen to

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Speaker 2: research that we've on or that that our research associates

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Speaker 2: extraordinaries have done for these shows on a voice to

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Speaker 2: speech yeah, a way that I can kind of do

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Speaker 2: it in the card speech IFI. And we did one

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Speaker 2: recently on I forget exactly which episode it was, but

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Speaker 2: there was some reference to pornography in it and Triple X.

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Speaker 2: The speech to voice robot reads that as thirty every time,

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Speaker 2: because that's the Roman numeral triple another sex phone? Which

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Speaker 2: one is that one? That's the hip hop episode? That's right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Triple X. The idea of of you know, censorship and

404
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Speaker 2: all that and the X rating and then triple X

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Speaker 2: ray and the fact that it wasn't actually really a thing.

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Speaker 1: No pornography studios created that to make it look like

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Speaker 1: they were.

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Speaker 2: Even so hardcore. Yeah, but sorry, I just just had

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Speaker 2: to do a little aside on Roman rated thirty rated

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Speaker 2: thirty exactly. All right.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's like, you know again, say yelling that you

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Speaker 1: want to build a wall kind of has a bad

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Speaker 1: connotation for a lot of us here in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: but back then, Pope Leo, he had his head in

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Speaker 1: the right place. They did build the wall thirty nine

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Speaker 1: feet tall, so they're not playing around. It's not like

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Speaker 1: a decorative picket fence. And when this enclosed the whole area.

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Speaker 1: When the wall was complete, they called it Leo nine city.

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Speaker 1: Get it, Pope Leo is a cavalcade of humble dudes

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Speaker 1: things after themselves.

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Speaker 2: No, it's true, and that was wrapped up in around

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Speaker 2: eighteen fifty two. And yeah, it really was designed to,

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Speaker 2: you know, keep the folks inside in and the folks

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Speaker 2: outside out. Yeah, right, exactly like a wall is meant

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Speaker 2: to do. I'm sorry, I'm stating the obvious here.

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Speaker 1: Right, there is a small shrine that, according to according

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Speaker 1: to the believers, holds the bones of the real Saint Peter,

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Speaker 1: and they top it with a canopy that has four

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Speaker 1: twisted columns from the second century. I am adin, We're

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Speaker 1: not architecture experts, so I imagine it's like taking a

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Speaker 1: column and just twisting your hands in opposite direction.

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Speaker 2: I think that's right in that description. There's not an image,

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Speaker 2: but that description. I haven't been to Vatican City, so I, Kevin,

434
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: see a lot of this stuff. Personally. But that description

435
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: comes from an article by A. Lisa Bernard from romewise

436
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: dot com Your Guide to Rome. Yeah, if you want.

437
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: To there, we go Rome around the world, and Rome

438
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: and the Vatican did indeed spread around the world. Okay,

439
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: some other things you need to know. People started donating

440
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: lands to the Catholic Church. It eventually becomes one of

441
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: the largest landholders in.

442
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: All of Europe.

443
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: And with that power, you know, like like Little Kim said, money,

444
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: power respect. You get the money, get the power, and

445
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: then people respect you. I'm sure she's referencing the growth

446
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: of Vatican City in those lyrics. Big Day, December twenty fifth,

447
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: eight hundred CE. A guy that may also be familiar

448
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: to you. Charlemagne, not our co worker.

449
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: The God, not the God. This is just regular art.

450
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: He probably thought of himself as a bit of a

451
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: gods should imagine.

452
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: Right, especially on this day when he was officially crowned

453
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: Holy Roman Emperor by Pope Leo the Third.

454
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: Uh.

455
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 1: This took place on this big, big circular stone, and

456
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: you can see the stone right at the entrance of

457
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 1: Saint Peter's Basilica. When you visit today, you are walking

458
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: through history. When you were in this town.

459
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: Incredible. That's the beautiful thing about so many parts of

460
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: Europe is like it's a park, but there are like

461
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 2: sculptures and topieris and things that have been maintained for

462
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: hundreds of years.

463
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: You're in a bar and you look around and you go, hey,

464
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: how old is this bar? And they're like, well, that's

465
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: sixteen fifteen hundred.

466
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 2: Is that the shroud of turn over? There? Yes, as

467
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 2: a bar, wipe down cloth.

468
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't bring it up there, don't bring it up.

469
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, what's that old saying. I'm sure a lot

470
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: of our ridiculous historyans are thinking this already. In Europe,

471
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: two hundred miles is a long way. In the United States,

472
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: two hundred years is a long time.

473
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: That's very true. So, as you said, Charlemagne is crowned

474
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: on the eve of December twenty fifth, eight hundred, thee

475
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: crowned Holy Roman Emperor by Pope Leo the Third, and

476
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: eventually the popes start to have a very similar type

477
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: and amount of power as an emperor.

478
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: My yeah, yeah, they start governing neighboring regions, they become

479
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: the state authority, and up until about the mid eighteen

480
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: hundreds they ruled a large piece of the Italian peninsula,

481
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: and these came to be these areas came to be

482
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: collectively referred to as the papal states. These popes would

483
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: live at the Litterian Palace, and then later they would

484
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: live at the Querarinal Palace coronel.

485
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: You know, like you.

486
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: Or if you're British, your hinal right right, aluminium and

487
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: so on.

488
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 2: And that's between thirteen oh nine and thirteen seventy seven,

489
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,239
Speaker 2: when the papal residence was actually in France, as we

490
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: referred to earlier in Avignon.

491
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: Avignon, Yes, yes, sir, and their dalliance their company moved

492
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: to France. Didn't last too long. Actually, in the great

493
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: scheme of things, the church returned to Italy in thirteen

494
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: seventy seven, and this is where they begin building things

495
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: like the Cistine Chapel, the new Saint Peter's Basilica.

496
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 2: And the old Apostolic Palace was actually leveled, and then

497
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: they built a new one for the pope to live,

498
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: and that's Pope Nicholas the Fifth. This was kind of

499
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: the beginning of the new and improved Vatican City that

500
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: is largely what we know today.

501
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it happens because our pal Pope Nicholas

502
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: the fifth decides to live permanently within the bounds of

503
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: the city. And to the fast forward toward the end

504
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: of the fourteen hundreds, Pope Julius the second is saying,

505
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: it's time to think of the future. It's time to

506
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: preserve our legacy. The Basilica is twelve hundred years old.

507
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: Now we should probably look into some maintenance. And sadly

508
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: this idea came a little too late. Imagine a huge

509
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: building like this, it's leading to one side. It's not

510
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: big enough to hold the huge tomb that Pope Julius

511
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: the Second had asked Michelangelo to design for him.

512
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: That's right, always stay humble. And this was a big

513
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: deal because all of this stuff, you know, the whole

514
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: origin of this area was connected directly to Saint Peter's martyrdom,

515
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: you know, under the Romans, and so it was kind

516
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: of very unpopular, at the very least divisive to consider

517
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: overhauling it, you know, or or almost like bordering on

518
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: sacrilege to the faithful.

519
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, but they had to deal with reality. It

520
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: would be virtually impossible to repair this structure. So they said,

521
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: we're going to preserve Saint Peter's tomb, and we're going

522
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: to make something even bigger, bolder, better and more holy

523
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: around it. Pope Julius passes away in fifteen thirteen, and

524
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: subsequent popes after him consult so many architects to try

525
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: to figure out what this new basilica will look like.

526
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: How will it not be sacrilegious, How will it be

527
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: more of the stuff you liked already but even better,

528
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: and how will it be an appropriately dignified structure for

529
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: one of the most important figures in all of Catholic history.

530
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: So I know we're jumping around in history a little bit,

531
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: as we are wont to do, but let's jump if

532
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: we may to May the sixth of fifteen twenty seven,

533
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: when troops, under acting under orders from Charles the Fifth,

534
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: the Holy Roman emperor at the time, rose up because

535
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: they hadn't been getting paid. Good reason to rise it is, Yeah,

536
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: for sure, labor rights very important concept. So a lot

537
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: of these foreign soldiers they didn't just attack Rome, or

538
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: as the popular militaristic term would be of the time,

539
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: sack Rome, but in fact they pretty much annihilated it.

540
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: They did a nero. Yeah, they narrowed the heck out

541
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: of it, and it was absolutely brutal rape and pillage

542
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: style kind of behavior. And one hundred and eighty nine

543
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: Swiss guards in the palace. Total of that number, one

544
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: hundred and forty seven actually died right there in front

545
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: of Saint Peter's Basilica. These Swiss guards, by the way,

546
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: as you mentioned at the top of the show, also

547
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: housed in this part. Why are they called Swiss Guards?

548
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked. Okay, So they are kind

549
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: of a relatively new force at this time, because we

550
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: say fifteen twenty seven, so they well, they've been around

551
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: for a few decades. They start in the fourteen hundreds

552
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: and late fourteen hundreds. Because Pope Sixtus the Fourth, which

553
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: is confusing, wow, for the sixth threat, he can't be

554
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: Pope sixty four. Pope Sixtus the fourth made an alliance

555
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: with what was called the Swiss Confederacy. And he did

556
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: this because he thought, we need you know, we're a

557
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: state force. Now we need an army because the true

558
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: definition of any state is a monopoly on violence. And

559
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: they so he makes a pact and says, we're going

560
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: to agree with you. The Swiss Confederacy, a bunch of

561
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: really small independent states initially within the Holy Roman Empire.

562
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: We're gonna get your soldiers that are gonna work for us.

563
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: They don't have to become members of the clergy or

564
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: anything like that. So the Swiss Guard, which is around

565
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: today has its own storied history that would be a

566
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: lot of fun to talk about. They went through the fire,

567
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: Like you said, almost one hundred and fifty died. The

568
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: Pope Clement the seventh in this attack, he has to

569
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: go to ground.

570
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: He's on the run, that's right, and he, along with

571
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: I think only around forty two of these Swiss Guard

572
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: members escape through a network of passageways on top of

573
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: that Leonine Wall that we mentioned, which is the walls

574
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: surrounding Vatican City, and that led to a fortress called

575
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: Castel San Angelo, and eventually Pope Clement the what is

576
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: it seventh, right, actually had to pay a quite sizeable

577
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: ransom and give up some of those papal states or

578
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: control of them to the Holy Roman Empire. It really

579
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: does get a little convoluted because I even was confused

580
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: with that right way is Holy Roman Empire are the

581
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: same as like the Seat of the Catholic Church. And

582
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: it's not because there was a time where they were

583
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: like at odds with each other, Oh for sure. I

584
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: mean because the power that Vatican City held largely was

585
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: due to the fact that they were gifted all of

586
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: this land and all of this property, and they were

587
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: just early to the game. So they eventually amassed enough

588
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: influence and you know cachet I guess, you know, actual

589
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: physical goods and lands that they were a rival to

590
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: the emperor, and that probably didn't go over particularly well.

591
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even the term Holy Roman Empire wasn't used

592
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: until the thirteenth century, I want to say. And the

593
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: idea was supposed to be that they got their authority

594
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: from God, right, so the pope would have to co

595
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: sign you as a monarch, which led to some very

596
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: sticky situations. Anyway, as you said, Pope Clement the seventh,

597
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: in the parlance of our times, he got got.

598
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 2: He sure did so. In eighteen seventy the various states

599
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: that were contained within the Peninsula of Italy, the Italian

600
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: Peninsula became kind of unified, I guess under King Victor

601
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: Emmanuel the Second. This was also a time where the

602
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: pope's supremacy was beginning to wane a little bit because

603
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 2: he'd already the position rather right, had to give up

604
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: a lot of that control over these papal states and

605
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 2: of the influence they had. So it was a little

606
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 2: bit questionable between eighteen sixty one and nineteen twenty nine

607
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: as to what the pope even represented, you know, and

608
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: what kind of power that position would wield. Right.

609
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, And Italy, you're probably wondering the whole time what

610
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: was Italy doing? Uh, they were minding their own business.

611
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: Italy was not unified. There were a bunch of semi

612
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: autonomous different communities and states, and Italy would not interfere

613
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: with the Holy See within the Vatican, but outside of

614
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: the Vatican they would confiscate stuff pretty much whenever they can,

615
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: including the Coronal Palace, which was once again formerly the

616
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: pope's official homes.

617
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: Right. And at that point the popes start to, you know,

618
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: kind of hole up within the walls of Vatican City

619
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: largely I would argue for their own protection. Yeah, and

620
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: and a lot of the I guess, let's call them

621
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: priorities of the popes were then recognized by something called

622
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 2: the Law of Guarantees, which included things like the right

623
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: to send and receive ambassadors and to maintain these ambassadorships.

624
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: But also the popes didn't recognize the supremacy of the

625
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: kings of Italy and their right to rule Rome. They

626
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: refused to get out of their Heidi hole behind those

627
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: walls in Vatican City. So it really did become kind

628
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: of like a bunker, like a compound where they were

629
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: able to kind of seek refuge, you know, and be

630
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: quite isolated.

631
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: One hundred percent right again for their own safety, but

632
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: they became prisoners essentially out of necessity. Let's fast forward, max,

633
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: if we get the yeah, there we go, so perfect,

634
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: We're in nineteen twenty six. This is where Vatican City

635
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: begins to transform into an actual facts nation state as

636
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: our power, Volgelbaum would say. The negotiations for the settlement

637
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: of what became new as the Roman Question started in

638
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty six. The government of Italy and the Holy

639
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: See again the jurisdiction of the Pope, they create these

640
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: things we mentioned earlier. The latter are in pacts. This

641
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: agreement gets signed off by a one of the only

642
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: bad bends in history, Benito Mussolini, prime minister at the time,

643
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: on behalf of King Victor Emanuel the third of Italy,

644
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: and then for the Vatican side, the packs are signed

645
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: by Cardinals Secretary of State Pietro Gaspari for Pope Pious

646
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: the Eleventh. This all goes down on February eleventh of

647
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, so it took three years for them

648
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: to negotiate this stuff, and it's a big win for

649
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 1: Vatican City.

650
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: It's officially ratified on June seventh of nineteen twenty nine. Again,

651
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: much more recent history than we would typically think. You know,

652
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: you think of something like Vatican City, obviously the history

653
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: of it as a place much longer. But I think

654
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: for me, at least, I've always thought of it as

655
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: its own kind of you know, sovereign nation.

656
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: Right right, It seems strange how close the history is here.

657
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us in the West, especially

658
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: if we are not of the Catholic faith, we assume

659
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: that since ancient times, Vatican City has been a distinct

660
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: nation stake.

661
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, fascists don't typically have a reputation for, like,

662
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: you know, being particularly agreeable or giving stuff up. But

663
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: the fascist Italian government does in fact agree to the

664
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: latter entreaty to the terms the latter entreaty, and the

665
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: Pope then is able to exercise sovereignty. After he is

666
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: elected as the head of the Roman Catholic Church, he

667
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: becomes an absolute monarch essentially, or let's call it. I

668
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: guess you know. Britannica dot com uses the term executive

669
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: in terms of his head of this mini government which

670
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: has an executive, legislative and judicial branch, the Pope being

671
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: the head of all of those, right, big man on campus.

672
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: So one of my questions is, and I say this

673
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: with great, great respect, one of my questions is how

674
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 1: absolute is that in practice? Does that mean the Pope

675
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: can be walking by somewhere and point at someone now

676
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: say I don't like it, get it out?

677
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: Or like he can can he? I'm sure he can.

678
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: He's like he could be like a stand up comic

679
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: when they're doing a show. He can just walk by

680
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: and not likes someone and say get him out, get

681
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: him out of here. Now get his Swiss and the

682
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: Swiss autumn, Yeah, get the Swiss.

683
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 2: And it's funny too because we well I've always thought

684
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 2: of the Swiss as being you know, a gentle, neutral,

685
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 2: milk chocolate loving people, but we as we know the

686
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: history of like the Swiss Guard and Swiss soldiers very

687
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: intense and brutal, you know, and really good at like

688
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 2: living rough and you know oftentimes you know, dealing with

689
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: very difficult climates and you know, kind of inventing eight knives.

690
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, they also they play a huge role. I'm more

691
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: and more convinced we need to do an episode on

692
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: the Swiss Guard. So another thing that fascist Italy does,

693
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: which it may surprise us given what we know about fascism,

694
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 1: They modernize a lot of the Vatican. They give them

695
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 1: a train station, telephone and telegraph office, a post office,

696
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: a radio station. They supply them with money and property

697
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: in other parts of Rome to kind of compensate in

698
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 1: their negotiations. And weirdly enough, despite all this, during World

699
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: War Two, the Vatican officially stays neutral.

700
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 2: And both the Allied and Axis forces exercise some restraints.

701
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: And you have to argue, I think that reverence for religion,

702
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, and the sanctity of Vatican City plays into

703
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: that much more than any kind of strategic planning.

704
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, no army in the Western world wants to be

705
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: the people responsible for bombing the pope. That's a hard one.

706
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 2: To walk back backs. That's a straight ticket to h

707
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: double hockey stacks, right, it probably is.

708
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: I think it's just implied. There's so reverence about this.

709
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: This centrality is taken so seriously that when the British

710
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: Air Force drops pamphlets over Rome and some of them

711
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: land in the bounds of the Vatican, the pontiff gets

712
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: super angry. And even when the US enters the war,

713
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: they oppose bombing Rome, and they exempt Catholic pilots and

714
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: crew from any air raids on Rome or other property

715
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: held by the Church unless they actively assertively said as

716
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: a Catholic, I'm cool with it.

717
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: It just speaks to the power of faith, you know,

718
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: and can transcend and how that you know. Just again,

719
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 2: the Roman Catholic Church has such a foothold in Europe,

720
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, and you know throughout the world in many ways,

721
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: but especially in Europe that even if you were like

722
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: a member of like the Church of England or something

723
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: like that, you still respected the papacy, you know, it

724
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 2: was something that you would dare not interfere with.

725
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: And during the war, by the way, Pious the twelfth

726
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: didn't create any new cardinals, so they had a backlog

727
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: they have positions to fill. In nineteen forty six he

728
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: creates thirty two cardinals to fill all these vacant openings.

729
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: The funt difficult military corps except for the Swiss Guard,

730
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: gets disbanded. In nineteen seventy the gendame rays right, Yeah, okay,

731
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: they become civilian police.

732
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say gendermere Yeah.

733
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: And nineteen eighty four, again very recent, the Holy See

734
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: in Italy modify parts of their earlier t but the

735
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: sovereignty sticks. And that is why you can visit the

736
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: Vatican today and you will be visiting a sovereign foreign country.

737
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: We didn't even talk about the size of the Vatican yet.

738
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are we talking here, Ben, It's again we're

739
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: talking about micronations, So it's got to be small, yeah,

740
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: sort of part of the criteria of this whole ongoing series. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

741
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: It get this zero point one point nine square miles.

742
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: Wow, only around one hundred and nine acres within yeah, exactly,

743
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: a roughly two mile square mile border, one hundred and

744
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: sixty acres of holdings, land holdings elsewhere. But most importantly,

745
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: it represents the spiritual home. Yeah, I mean, if not

746
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: physical to roughly one point two billion Catholics around the world.

747
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 2: One point two billion.

748
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly that, and I guess what we should should

749
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: point that out too quick? Correction, it's it covers one

750
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: hundred and nine acres. You will see the estimates say

751
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: that it's zero point one nine square miles, but it's

752
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: got a two mile border.

753
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 2: Oh excuse me, correct, I was thinking one point nine Yeah.

754
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 2: There's two different no, two different things. And yeah, only

755
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 2: around a thousand people actually live there. Remains an absolute

756
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 2: monarchy essentially. You know, we can about being with an

757
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: executive you know, someone in control of both the executive, judicial,

758
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: and legislative branches of government. That's an absolute monarchy and

759
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: an incredibly you know, potent historical site and continued uh

760
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 2: site for pilgrimages from people from around the world that

761
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: want to come and hang with the pope. And you know,

762
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: see what's the thing too, when they elect a new

763
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: pope the white smoke, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, the conflict

764
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: that's yeah, I kind of like a king's moot, you know, situation, Yeah,

765
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: it is. And the negotia ciations are fraught with political

766
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: intrigue within the Vatican, stuff that we not even non Catholics,

767
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: but non clergy members wouldn't understand the intrigue. And I

768
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: think we did an episode on stuff they don't want

769
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 2: you to know about secret museums and this idea that

770
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: there is some sort of secret cache of artifacts housed

771
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: within the Vatican that you don't get to see, no

772
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: know about. Now. By you, I mean all of you

773
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 2: and the royal you.

774
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: Unless the cardinals and the Pope are listening now, But

775
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: I assume you guys are busy.

776
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: Because think about the history, man, I mean, like all

777
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: of that, that time when Vatican City started to really

778
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: be on the rise because of all of these faithful

779
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 2: people of great power and influence just giving them stuff,

780
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 2: you know, gifting them lands.

781
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: All that stuff like exists somewhere there. Yeah, it has

782
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: to go somewhere. Things don't simply cease to be. It

783
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: is still continually fascinating. This is the world's smallest state.

784
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: It's nuts how much younger it is than a lot

785
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: of people assume.

786
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 2: And I would love to visit. I don't know, what

787
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 2: do you think, smallest state's largest church? Yeah, it's almost

788
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: like the whole me think about it. The whole city

789
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 2: was built around a church, so it totally makes sense

790
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: not to mention that it is this like spiritual you know,

791
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 2: seat for billion, this you know, over a billion people.

792
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 2: It's pretty fascinating.

793
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: We get asks Max, so nol you're in Max, would

794
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,439
Speaker 1: you go with us to the Vatican if it meant

795
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: if you didn't have to climb the dome shimming, get

796
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: in a balloon?

797
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: Oh?

798
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 3: Absolutely. The Vatican is just you know, I don't know,

799
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 3: it's it's it's the Vatican. It's one of the most

800
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 3: famous places on the earth. Also in agreement, I thought

801
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: this place is much older as a country than it

802
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 3: actually is.

803
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, this is like serious history. It's

804
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 2: just something that we have grown up knowing, and I think,

805
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes individuals feeling like the main character in

806
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 2: their own story, we just kind of assume that the

807
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 2: things that we've always known have always been true since forever.

808
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 2: That's sort of the point of history, studying history, and

809
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: hopefully this podcast is to help sort of correct some

810
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: of those misconceptions as best we can.

811
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we also didn't even talk about the fact

812
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: that Vatican City has restaurants. Oh I'm sure they're delightful. Yeah,

813
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: I just didn't eat lunch yet so.

814
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 2: That either, I'm sure you could get a really nice

815
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: catcho to pipe.

816
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: Are they like good restaurants? Are they're like really cheesy

817
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 3: tourist trap restaurants?

818
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: Oh, there has to be some good ones. I'm sure

819
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 2: there have one hundred percent. They probably have a food

820
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 2: court in Saint Peter's Basilica. I imagine I'm.

821
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: Thinking of one of those really themed up like uh,

822
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 3: gift shop inside the restaurant, because you know, when we go, guys,

823
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 3: we gotta go fifty to fifty on that. We had

824
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 3: to do the most touristy one, the most legitimate.

825
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also put forth that we pool our resources

826
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: and start a restaurant in Vatican City called Body of Christ.

827
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 2: We only served wine and wine, yeah, with for dipping.

828
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: I'm certain this is one of the best ideas we've

829
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: ever had, and the Pope is gonna love it. He's

830
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: gonna be like, shut you know, all we have to

831
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: do is come to the ribbon cutting. It's an absolute monarchy,

832
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: which means all we have to do is get one

833
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: guy on our side, one guy if we can convince him,

834
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: if we can pitch the Pope on Body of Christ,

835
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: the pop up restaurant or permanent pope up restaurant.

836
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 2: Cool. It's needed really, like, way more progressive in the

837
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 2: last couple of months. Bro, We're about to see Yeah,

838
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: all right, holy see, Holy see, you're killing it. We're done.

839
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: So thank you of course to UH Research Socio Jeff Bartlett.

840
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, of course to the one and only mister

841
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: Max Williams, who elsh.

842
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 2: Long may he reign as Pope of our hearts, of

843
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 2: the nero of our podcast That's fair. I was trying

844
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: to be nice this time, but he took it to

845
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 2: the right place, man. I like where your head's at,

846
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 2: like the cut of your gym Alex Williams to compose

847
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: our theme. Christ vraciotis here in spirit and you Ben

848
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: the Pope of my heart and also with you. Thank

849
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 2: you go in peace. We'll see you next time. Folks.

850
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

851
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.