WEBVTT - Evolving Money: Blue Chip Meets Blockchain (Sponsored Content)

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<v Speaker 1>Since you're a subscriber to this Bloomberg podcast, we thought

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<v Speaker 1>you'd be interested in a sponsored podcast called Evolving Money,

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<v Speaker 1>produced by Coinbase and Bloomberg Media Studios. It explains how

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<v Speaker 1>institutional investors are adopting the world's newest asset class crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's a recent episode.

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<v Speaker 2>It's early days, right, It's only more recently that we're

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<v Speaker 2>starting to see true institutional adoption start to take hold.

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<v Speaker 3>That's Amanda Gotti, the chief investment officer for PNC's Asset

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<v Speaker 3>Management group, and she's right, true institutional adoption of crypto

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<v Speaker 3>is just starting to take hold. That's what this series

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<v Speaker 3>is about. Who are the big players adding digital assets

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<v Speaker 3>to their offerings? How are they doing it? Are they

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<v Speaker 3>partnering up or going it alone? And why are they

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<v Speaker 3>doing it now? Are they trying to get ahead of

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<v Speaker 3>the crowd or are they reacting to client demand. Well

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<v Speaker 3>we're going to answer those questions and more in this

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<v Speaker 3>season of Evolving Money, a show that explores how institutional

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<v Speaker 3>investors are adopting the world's newest asset class crypto. Hi,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean gi Lao. I've been a financial reporter for

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<v Speaker 3>decades and the people I'm talking to this season, are

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<v Speaker 3>amongst the highest ranking decision makers in the finance industry,

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<v Speaker 3>and that starts with today's guest, Amanda Agati. Now Amanda

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<v Speaker 3>leads the Investment Strategy group at P and C Bank.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a financial services company with roots that go

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<v Speaker 3>way back to eighteen forty five. That's about one hundred

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<v Speaker 3>and eighty years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 3>Between their historical roots and their two hundred and fifteen

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<v Speaker 3>billion US dollars of assets under management, they are a

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<v Speaker 3>bedrock financial institution, the epitome of old school. So what

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<v Speaker 3>is an old school Titan doing in the crypto space?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's just sort of the next natural evolution of

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<v Speaker 2>our investment offering. I mean, we spend a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>time looking at the multi asset universe, and we're very

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<v Speaker 2>much capital allocators. We're in some ways generalists. We're looking

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<v Speaker 2>at public markets, private markets, equities, fixed income, alternatives, commodities,

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<v Speaker 2>structures of various sorts, and so crypto feels like just

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<v Speaker 2>the next natural evolution of the multi asset universe. We're really,

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<v Speaker 2>i think paid and expected by our clients and the

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<v Speaker 2>investors that we serve to understand where the edge is,

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<v Speaker 2>where the next wave of financial innovation is coming from.

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<v Speaker 2>And so, you know, a few years ago we were

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<v Speaker 2>kind of kicking the tires on what crypto looks like

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<v Speaker 2>as an industry. The regulatory environment had shifted in a

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<v Speaker 2>very unfavorable way, and so it sort of shut the

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<v Speaker 2>lights off on some of the areas that we were

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<v Speaker 2>exploring from a crypto perspective. But with a new administration

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<v Speaker 2>and a very different regulatory environment in play here, it

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<v Speaker 2>just made a lot of sense for us to pick

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<v Speaker 2>it back up again. We think it has staying power,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we're trying to understand where we, as a

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<v Speaker 2>more traditional financial institution, show up in the crypto industry,

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<v Speaker 2>how we show up, and how we create access for

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<v Speaker 2>our clients, because our clients are really interested in it.

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<v Speaker 3>When you bring it to your institutional level colleagues, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>and you're having these conversations and you're all discussing, we

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<v Speaker 3>got to bring crypto to our clients. That must have

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<v Speaker 3>been some very interesting conversations. What were those conversations, like

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<v Speaker 3>bringing it to P and C.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's fun to look back on it, but at

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<v Speaker 2>the time they were somewhat challenging conversations. I mean, this

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<v Speaker 2>is the way the investment business works, right, It's almost

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<v Speaker 2>never unanimous. There's always Monday morning quarterbacks. There's a million

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<v Speaker 2>different points of view on one particular investment idea or solution,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it took a lot of I think conversations

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<v Speaker 2>and internal debate, particularly as it relates to the regulatory

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<v Speaker 2>backdrop and some of the uncertainty around what's considered bank

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<v Speaker 2>permissible or not right. As much as as much as

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<v Speaker 2>we want to lean hard into being at the forefront

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<v Speaker 2>of innovation and lean hard into new financial technology and

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of thing, we are a very regulated entity.

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<v Speaker 2>We are traditional financial institution, and so this set of

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<v Speaker 2>the outer bounds of most people's comfort level right when

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<v Speaker 2>we think about risk, compliance, legal, cyber security, etc. So

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<v Speaker 2>it took a lot of conversations in hand holding to

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<v Speaker 2>get everybody on board with the idea of what we

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<v Speaker 2>were trying to do.

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<v Speaker 3>So what got it over the line? Then, what was

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<v Speaker 3>the philosophy or the approach that got people on board.

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<v Speaker 2>This is not do all things and be all things.

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<v Speaker 2>This is literally creating access through a really strong strategic

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<v Speaker 2>partnership with coinbase, Right, it made perfect sense to partner

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<v Speaker 2>with them to connect our clients and create access to

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<v Speaker 2>this new opportunity set. I think there are a ton

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<v Speaker 2>of benefits institutionally speaking to start heading down this path.

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<v Speaker 2>We learned how to connect to a completely different trading platform.

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<v Speaker 2>We're learning how to operate in twenty four seven trading environments.

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<v Speaker 2>We're looking at different types of you know, AML and

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<v Speaker 2>cyber related guard rails. We're going to look at and contemplate,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, other coins beyond Bitcoin. You know this, This

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<v Speaker 2>sort of opens the door to what is possible as

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<v Speaker 2>it relates to stable coins. It was important for us

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<v Speaker 2>to take that step so that we can start to

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<v Speaker 2>learn and interact with this completely new and different asset class.

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<v Speaker 3>What's driving the demand now in terms of creating new products.

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<v Speaker 3>Is it coming from the opportunities that you see internally,

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<v Speaker 3>does it come from the marketplace or both.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a little bit of a push pull in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of our organization wanting to lean further into this

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<v Speaker 2>financial innovation, but also to some degree our clients kind

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<v Speaker 2>of asking for and wishing for advice and guidance and education.

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<v Speaker 2>Like what do we think about this financial innovation? I

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<v Speaker 2>think what we're hearing and what we're seeing and what

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<v Speaker 2>we are planning for is that we need multiple avenues

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<v Speaker 2>to access crypto exposure for clients who are interested in

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<v Speaker 2>pursuing it. So some will go direct right, they'll use

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<v Speaker 2>our solution. They'll they'll interact with the coins. It might

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<v Speaker 2>be Bitcoin, it might be ethereum, it might be so long,

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<v Speaker 2>it might be something else entirely different. There are others

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<v Speaker 2>that you want an easier, potentially easier path, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I think the advent of some of the ETFs that

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<v Speaker 2>we've seen have made such a difference in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>ease of institutional adoption. It's easy to incorporate an ETF

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<v Speaker 2>directly into an existing multi asset portfolio, So I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's an opportunity. One of the areas that we've spent

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of time on over the last few years,

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<v Speaker 2>separate and apart from the strategic partnership that we launched

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<v Speaker 2>with Coinbase and the crypto for Clients solution that we developed,

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<v Speaker 2>is really in private markets. Our institutional clients in particular

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<v Speaker 2>often get asked, and this is like endowment and foundation

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<v Speaker 2>nonprofit type of institutional clients often get asked, can you

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<v Speaker 2>take a highly appreciated crypto gift? What would you do

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<v Speaker 2>with it? If a donor were to give you a

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<v Speaker 2>large crypto gift, what do you do? And today it's

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<v Speaker 2>hard because they have to go set up an account

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<v Speaker 2>somewhere to accept it and convert it to FIAT and

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<v Speaker 2>then maybe diversify into other types of exposures. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's a natural place for the evolution of this offering

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<v Speaker 2>to go. So in MVP one, we're not really handling

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<v Speaker 2>transfers in the way I think our institutional client base

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<v Speaker 2>would like to see. So that's on the roadmap. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>to incorporate ethereum into the offering naturally takes you down

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<v Speaker 2>a rabbit hole of staking, yield farming. There's a decent

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<v Speaker 2>number of elements around what it means to incorporate ethereum.

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<v Speaker 2>I think our clients are very interested in what staking

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<v Speaker 2>might look like and how that shows up within our offering,

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<v Speaker 2>so that that could be on the roadmap for you know,

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<v Speaker 2>MVP two and beyond.

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<v Speaker 3>When you look at risk return correlations and liquidity, what

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<v Speaker 3>does the data tell you about adding crypto into any

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<v Speaker 3>diversified portfolio.

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<v Speaker 2>So we only know so much at this point, but

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<v Speaker 2>based on what we have seen so far, it is

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<v Speaker 2>very much indeed an uncorrelated asset, so there is diversification

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<v Speaker 2>benefits to be had. There's a little bit of a

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<v Speaker 2>scarcity element to how various blockchains and coins are constructed,

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<v Speaker 2>so I think that adds over time to potentially the

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<v Speaker 2>valuation story and the relative attractiveness over time. So we

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<v Speaker 2>do think that there are definitely benefits and unique attributes

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<v Speaker 2>of crypto as an asset class that can add value

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<v Speaker 2>in a multi asset portfolio context. The challenge I think

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<v Speaker 2>at the moment is this volatility component we we see

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<v Speaker 2>is about four times the volatility of public equities, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it's not for the faint of heart. So when

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<v Speaker 2>we think about incorporating into portfolios, that's one of the

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<v Speaker 2>major cons right, how much is a client or an

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<v Speaker 2>investor willing to see some whipsaw in terms of portfolios.

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<v Speaker 2>There are definitely benefits to it that you have to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to stomach somewhat of a wild ride at

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<v Speaker 2>times too. It's not a straight line higher kind of story.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're just trying to be thoughtful about what we

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<v Speaker 2>think the big catalysts and the backdrop for the industry

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<v Speaker 2>might be and where the path forward lies before we

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<v Speaker 2>start making a formal recommendation around it. We really tend

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<v Speaker 2>to be very long only and buy and hold again

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<v Speaker 2>across the multi asset universe. So when we take positions

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<v Speaker 2>in portfolios, they are very high conviction recommendations and they

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<v Speaker 2>are built over a period of time, so I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's an important start place. We're very targeted and very thoughtful.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not hasty about making decisions, and I think that

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<v Speaker 2>naturally applies to how we think about the launch of

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<v Speaker 2>the crypto solution that we created for our clients. That

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<v Speaker 2>was a very thoughtful and targeted and methodical approach. It

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't sort of hastily put together. Anytime we find a

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<v Speaker 2>secular investment opportunity, a secular theme, a trend AI is

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<v Speaker 2>a good example of this. We think crypto potentially is

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<v Speaker 2>another one of those that has a really long horizon

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<v Speaker 2>and a really significant but extended innovation cycle. Those are

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<v Speaker 2>the areas where we want to pick our spots carefully

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<v Speaker 2>and then continue to build over time.

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<v Speaker 3>The discussions within PNC started with questions about investing in

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<v Speaker 3>this new asset class, but they very quickly expanded into

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<v Speaker 3>something much larger.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's all this focus on bitcoin ethereum et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>But what about the underlying blockchain technology and the use

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<v Speaker 2>cases and the new business models that are being born

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<v Speaker 2>off of that. It's really it feels a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>like the advent of like Web two point zero. It's

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<v Speaker 2>hard to remember what it was like when we didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have uber or Lyft as an example. Now it's so commonplace.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we've spent a lot of time over the

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<v Speaker 2>last few years looking at private market investments, venture capital

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<v Speaker 2>in particular, that has been primarily where it's been concentrated,

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<v Speaker 2>but other elements of the private market or alternative asset classes,

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<v Speaker 2>you can gain exposure to crypto business models or new

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<v Speaker 2>companies that are being developed in sort of the crypto

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<v Speaker 2>industry and landscape, and so for a decent number of

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<v Speaker 2>years that was the primary way for our clients to

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<v Speaker 2>access blockchain technology and crypto oriented exposure. That's fine, but

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<v Speaker 2>not all clients are eligible, or able or willing to

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<v Speaker 2>invest in private markets. You lock up capital for an

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<v Speaker 2>extended period of time. You have to be of a

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<v Speaker 2>certain size and scope and eligibility to even invest in alternatives.

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<v Speaker 2>So the things that we have done since then have

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<v Speaker 2>really been designed to create access and democratize crypto for

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<v Speaker 2>our clients. Then I think the big one is how

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<v Speaker 2>much are we going to learn out of the twenty

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<v Speaker 2>four to seven trading environment for crypto and when does

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<v Speaker 2>that start to apply to traditional markets? Are we going

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<v Speaker 2>to get to it. We've talked about it a lot, right,

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<v Speaker 2>We've talked about the major exchanges extending their trading hours.

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<v Speaker 2>We obviously have you know, overnight in futures markets, you

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<v Speaker 2>know some level of activity there, But does this ultimately

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<v Speaker 2>spill over and catalyze the twenty four to seven trading environment.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't sleep that much as it is. I definitely

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<v Speaker 2>won't sleep in a twenty four to seven trading environment,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think it does make sense to be thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about what that looks like in a not too distant

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<v Speaker 2>future state. So I think there's a lot for traditional

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<v Speaker 2>public markets to actually learn from the crypto industry. That's

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<v Speaker 2>how we're thinking about it, right, We're a traditional financial institution.

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<v Speaker 2>We're learning a lot from the crypto industry. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think it goes both ways, and I think in the

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<v Speaker 2>end there's going to be some really powerful innovations that

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<v Speaker 2>come out of this, and it's still very early innings,

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<v Speaker 2>so we're really excited about the future.

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<v Speaker 3>Adoption by institutions like PNC is clear evidence that the

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<v Speaker 3>crypto evolution is taking hold in the largest and most

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<v Speaker 3>influential financial companies in the world. But the road isn't

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<v Speaker 3>always so smooth. Amanda was pretty clear about the challenges

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<v Speaker 3>she faced trying to earn internal support, and that's going

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<v Speaker 3>to happen anytime a big organization tries to evolve their

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<v Speaker 3>processes and their offerings. So what's coming next. To get

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<v Speaker 3>an answer to that, I asked Amanda for her wish

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<v Speaker 3>list moving forward.

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<v Speaker 2>It's less about me creating a wish list for new

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<v Speaker 2>innovations and new products and all of that as it

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<v Speaker 2>relates to crypto, and much more about bringing within the

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<v Speaker 2>walls of PNC a lot of the capabilities and exposures

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<v Speaker 2>that exist today. I don't need long term wish list

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<v Speaker 2>of ideas to keep me busy. I have so many

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<v Speaker 2>things that are sitting right in front of me to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of lean further into in terms of getting our

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<v Speaker 2>client's access to and getting sort of up the learning

0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.440
<v Speaker 2>curve around all things crypto. That know, it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>keep us busy for you know, the next year or

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<v Speaker 2>two it doesn't. It doesn't mean that we aren't forward looking.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course we are. But I think there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>to chew on, certainly in the new year as it

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<v Speaker 2>relates to just some of the existing capabilities. But we

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<v Speaker 2>just need to lean further into adoption and exposure in

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<v Speaker 2>some of the capabilities that have been developed today.

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<v Speaker 3>I mane you lal On behalf of coinbase in Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 3>Media Studios. Thanks for listening. There are a lot of

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.680
<v Speaker 3>other illuminating conversations in our feeds, so be sure to

0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 3>follow Evolving Money on Spotify or Apple podcasts.