1 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at 7 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love 8 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a 10 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for 11 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: joining me for another special TPG live episode. We'll get 12 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. 13 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: Which friend are you? And your sister circle? Are you 14 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: the wallflower, the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader? Take 15 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: the quiz at Sisterhoodhels dot com slash quiz to find out, 16 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: and then make sure to grab your copy of Sisterhood 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: Heels to find out more about how you can be 18 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: a better friend and how your circle can do a 19 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: better job of supporting you. Order yours today at Sisterhoodheels 20 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: dot com. We're back this week to provide you with 21 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: another page turning addition to your bookshelf, Grab your reading glasses, 22 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: find somewhere cozy, and get into this week's TVG Library 23 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: Pick Discalculia by Komone Felix. In this Calculia, Komone recalls 24 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: various heartbreaks experience throughout her life and connects them to 25 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: her childhood experience with this calculia, a disorder that makes 26 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: it difficult to learn math, using it as a metaphor 27 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: for the consequences of her miscalculations and love. Cimone joins 28 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: us today to discuss the process of writing a vulnerable memoir, 29 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: what lessons about heartbreak the book has to offer, and 30 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: her hopes to start an intergenerational conversation around mental illness 31 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: and black women. Please note that our conversation does include 32 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: references to self harm, so please support yourself in whatever 33 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: way is best while listening. If something resonates with you 34 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: while enjoying our conversation, share it with us on social 35 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TBG in Session, or join us 36 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: over in the Sister Circle to talk more about the episode. 37 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls 38 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for 39 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: joining us today, Comone. 40 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm extremely happy 41 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: to be here. 42 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm honor you took some time to chat with 43 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: us today. So you are a writer, a poet, and 44 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: an essay is known for Build Yourself a Boat, and 45 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: your work in The Cut, New Yorker, Vanity Fair, and 46 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: many many more places. What attracted you to writing and 47 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: poetry as a medium. 48 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: When I was a little girl, I spent a lot 49 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 2: of time in my head and I would make up 50 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: stories about the things that I wanted to see happen, like, 51 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: for instance, if I had a crush on a boy, 52 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: I would be up until four in the morning literally 53 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: designing what I thought my relationship with this boy would 54 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: look like, and through storytelling that I used to like 55 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: soothe myself. I just found it to be really special 56 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: and cool to be able to use words to paint 57 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: pictures and explain what I was thinking. 58 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: And that has translated you and been a through line 59 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: throughout your career. 60 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. For most of my career, I 61 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: have continued to think up wild stories, and it's always 62 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: been very exciting to think about how to put those 63 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: stories both true stories and fictional stories into words and 64 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: language that help other people make sense of their own lives. 65 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: It makes sense of the world around us. I just 66 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 2: really wanted to be the kind of maker who brought 67 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: people closer to the truth of their own lives and 68 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: the truth of what it means to exist in the 69 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 2: world at this time. So all the writing that I do, 70 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: the poetry writing, the nonfiction, and the essay work is 71 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: all towards that goal in some way shape or form. 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: M You know, you are one of my favorite nonfiction writers. 73 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: I always love seeing like a not fiction piece from 74 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: you because it feels like it always has some of 75 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: this storytelling element. Can you talk a little bit about 76 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: the differences, maybe for inspiration when you're writing like a 77 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: non fiction piece, maybe for The Cut versus your fiction 78 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: and poetry. 79 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I'm writing for The Cut or any 80 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: other magazine, I'm thinking about the topic at hand, whatever 81 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 2: story they want me to write, and trying to figure 82 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: out what is the way to maximize the context here 83 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 2: so that other people can find themselves in the story. Right, 84 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 2: if I'm going to talk about, for instance, and mobiles, 85 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: if I'm going to write about her, what could it 86 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: be about her life, about her story that might be 87 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: relevant to all of these readers who are coming to 88 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: it right and always trying to think about what is 89 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: the unique angle, the thing that hasn't been discussed before 90 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: that or the thing that hasn't been discussed enough that 91 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: I could bring to life in that story. And I 92 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: think it's not too different from what happens in poetry 93 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 2: and in fiction. I think constantly when I'm writing poetry, 94 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: I'm trying to think, what is the innovative, unique way 95 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 2: that I can tell this story that I'm about to tell, 96 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 2: and what is it that I can say to people 97 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: that hasn't been said before? And in fiction, I think 98 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: it's a little bit less about trying to say something 99 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: that hasn't been said before, more trying to double down 100 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 2: on a fact or a way of thinking that's already 101 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 2: been established and trying to bring people a little bit 102 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: closer to it. Right. So, if you already believe for 103 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: the kind of person who believes that housing should be 104 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: a human right, that people should have access to mental 105 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: health care, then how do you write a story that's 106 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: shaped around that ideal, that doubles down on that and 107 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: makes people believe it even more. 108 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: H I love that, Thank you. So let's dive into discalculia. 109 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: So can you share what discalculia is and why it 110 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: was so meaningful for you to explore and address your 111 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: learning disorder in the book given the same name. 112 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: Yes, So, dyscalculia is a learning disorder that is similar 113 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: to dyslexia, except that it applies in a mathematics context 114 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: and it prevents an individual from being able to do 115 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: basic arithmetical computation. So when you were in third grade 116 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: and you were learning how to do fractions and put 117 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: together a graph and do those calculations, I struggled significantly 118 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: with learning those things. It just didn't make sense to me. 119 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: It was like word salad, Like I couldn't figure out 120 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: where to even put a number or a figure to 121 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: make a computation make sense. And this was really important 122 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: for me to think about and to bring into my 123 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: work because it is a not very well known disorder 124 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: and it's definitely not a disorder that people associate with 125 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: black women. And it's also a disorder that can in 126 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: some ways not necessarily be triggered by trauma, but can 127 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: coincide with a trauma trigger and sort of happen at 128 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: the same time as a young person is trying to 129 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: process trauma, or any person is trying to process trauma. 130 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 2: And as I was trying to process my childhood trauma, 131 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: math and the ability to do it just left my mind. 132 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: I just wasn't able to do mathematics in the same 133 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: way that I had been able to do before, which 134 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: I think has a lot to do with the trauma 135 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: that I experienced and was brought on by it. And 136 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,119 Speaker 2: I wanted to highlight some of those connections and bring 137 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: the conversation both into a mental health context as we 138 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: were talking about trauma, and also bring it into a 139 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: physiological context. Right, bringing trauma into a physiological context, how 140 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: do we talk about the way trauma affects the body 141 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: and the mind, and then how do we talk about 142 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: the way the body and the mind are affected by trauma? 143 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: That was really important for me to highlight, and I 144 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: wanted to write a book that did all of that 145 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: and told a really good story and told a story 146 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: that everyone could relate to, which is about heartbreak and 147 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: trying to navigate what it feels like to have your 148 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: heart broken while trying to understand the sort of mathematical 149 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: equations that create the decisions that you make, or inspire 150 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: the decisions that you make, and inspire the decisions that 151 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: the people around you make. 152 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: And was this something that was diagnosed for you when 153 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: you were younger. 154 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: This wasn't diagnosed for me until I was much much older, 155 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: and it was a wake up call. I had always 156 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 2: been the kind of person to say like, Ugh, I'm 157 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: just not good at math, or don't give me the 158 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: check at the table, I'm not splitting the bill. But 159 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: I realized once I got diagnosed that these were things 160 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: I was telling myself as a way to mask and 161 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: hide behind a real disability. And there was a part 162 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: of me that knew that I was struggling with a disability, 163 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: especially because when I was younger, before third grade, I 164 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: was actually really, really good at math. My mom had 165 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: bought me a bunch of math games and computer games 166 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: and I was excelling at all of them. And then 167 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: at the same time that a significant trauma happened to me, 168 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: I lost the ability to do those things. And when 169 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 2: I was diagnosed as an adult, I realized that none 170 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: of those things could be understood in isolation, not the trauma, 171 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: not the disability that I had to look at them 172 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: all through the same lens, or at least try to 173 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 2: understand them through the same lens, and that was really 174 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: empowering for me. 175 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: I thought it was a very innovative. And you've already 176 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: used that word approach to writing to connect these traumatic 177 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: experiences to math in a way that I think I 178 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: hadn't seen kind of written before. And the memoir really 179 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: goes from early childhood to it seems like more recent 180 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: days detailing heartbreaks and like in a nonlinear form. Can 181 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about some of those heartbreaks 182 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: and why you felt important to write about them. 183 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, first of all, I'm so grateful that you 184 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 2: said heartbreaks with that s on the end, because that's 185 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: exactly what they are to me. There are systems of 186 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 2: heartbreaks in that book, everything from the assault that I 187 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: dealt with as a child, to falling out of love 188 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: with Math, to some of the conflict with me and 189 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: my mom, and then the larger macro heartbreak that happened 190 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: with a young man that I was involved with for 191 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: a long time. I really wanted to point to the 192 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 2: fact that heartbreak can be any scale, right, that heartbreak 193 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: can be small heartbreak can be medium sized, it can 194 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 2: be huge and devastating, but that they were all valid 195 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: and that felt important because, at least in the world 196 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: that I live in, black girls in particular aren't validated 197 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: in their pain. We go through heartbreak, whether it's small 198 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: or large, romantic or familial, cultural, and we're told that 199 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: we need to get over it. In the book, I 200 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: highlight some of the conversations that I had after my 201 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: breakup where people around me were just like, Oh, you'll 202 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 2: be fine, just work harder, don't think about it, and 203 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 2: it'll go away, And it didn't at all consider the 204 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: fact that I was genuinely not okay. I was already 205 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 2: disrupted in a way that was going to prevent me 206 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: from moving on in the way that they thought that 207 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: I should. And I wanted people to start to think 208 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: about their own heartbreaks and about the ways that the 209 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: world breaks their heart and consider whether or not they 210 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 2: should be taking their heartbreaks more seriously, that they should 211 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 2: be tending to them more carefully, right, giving themselves more 212 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: care Yeah, you. 213 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: Know, I think it's important to think about heartbreaks, even 214 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: if the content is not the same every time. It 215 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: is in a lot of ways peeling the scalpe off 216 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: of a wound that was there, like every additional heartbreak, 217 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: and so I really appreciated you talking about how this 218 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: felt in cumulative in a lot of ways, because it 219 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: really is scratching at that wound all over again, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, 220 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: So in the book, you also talk a lot about 221 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: your diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Why did it feel important 222 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: to write about that as a part of this story. 223 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 2: Being bipolar is something that I've been struggling with all 224 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: of my life, but only just was diagnosed with in 225 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 2: the last six years. And in the book you see 226 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 2: a lot of my behavior right, especially from being a 227 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: child onward. But I wanted to kind of show the 228 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: world what a bipolar black girl could look like, not 229 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: to make myself the sort of poster child, because there 230 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: are so many different ways that bipolar affects any one 231 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 2: of us. But as a person who struggled significantly in 232 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: childhood with behavior stuff, with access to resources, who was 233 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: hospitalized many times, it felt impossible to tell the story 234 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: of heartbreak without talking about the way mental illness has 235 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: facilitated some of those heartbreaks in my life. And if 236 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 2: not mental illness as an abstract thing, then maybe mental 237 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: health care and the mental health care system the way 238 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: that I had been abandoned, and it took me a 239 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: really long time to get the correct diagnosis, even though 240 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: all the evidence was there from the very beginning. It 241 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: feels like bipolar is as much part of my story 242 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: as dyscalculia is, especially because the two of them are 243 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: actually coexisting, and so for many people with bipolar disorder, 244 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: they struggle with dyscalculia or dyslexia, and that connection was 245 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: really eye opening for me to recognize it. As a kid, 246 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: I was already struggling with manic episodes and struggling with 247 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 2: depressive episodes, and the way that it was affecting my 248 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: brain triggered the dyscalculia and made it harder for me 249 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: to show up for myself and show up in the 250 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: way that I would have liked to intellectually. And yeah, 251 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about it because I haven't seen 252 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: many books written by black women about bipolar disorder, and 253 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: I just felt like there needed to be more out there, 254 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: especially for young bipolar people, to be able to know 255 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: that like one, You're gonna be okay, and two life 256 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: looks good on the other side. 257 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say. Besides, I'm lying, but I'm telling 258 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: the truth. I can't think of any others that talk 259 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: about black women. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I. 260 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: Actually want to talk about that book for a second 261 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: because I think it's so important to look at lineage 262 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: like Bassie. It has been inspiring me since I was 263 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: maybe fifteen years old, watching her poetry, seeing her at 264 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: the New yorreekan Poet's Cafe, which is a big part 265 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: of where I got my start, and really just admiring her, 266 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: not knowing what she was struggling with, and when she 267 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: came out with I'm lying, but I'm telling the truth, 268 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: I felt a sense of freedom of validity because she 269 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: was talking about it, and because she was being open 270 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: about it, I felt like I could talk about it 271 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: and I could be open about it. And I just 272 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: think that lineage is so important. It's so critical to 273 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: know to be able to see in the world work 274 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: that mirrors your life, because it gives you permission to 275 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: take it a little bit further, to tell a different story, 276 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: but something that's just as connected. I really love Bassie 277 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: and I'm very grateful for her. 278 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing that more from our conversation after 279 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: the break. Have you gotten emails or private messages from 280 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: readers talking about seeing themselves and their stories in your work. 281 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: For sure. I've gotten so many messages on Instagram and 282 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: on TikTok and on Twitter, people just saying like this 283 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 2: has been my story. The most popular message I get 284 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: is like I have discapulated, and I've never seen anybody 285 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: write about it. I've never even seen the word outside 286 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 2: of a mental health context, and that's really gratifying and special, 287 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: because I think that's what makes writing feel so important, 288 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: is knowing that there are people out there who are 289 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: going to be able to see themselves in your work. 290 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: And every time I get one of those messages, I 291 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: get a little emotional and I have to kind of 292 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: like avoid it, like I'll look at it and then 293 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: put it down really quickly so that I don't get 294 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: overly emotional. Because to know that there are so many 295 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: people out there, so many black girls in particular, especially 296 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: those with bipolar disorder and dyscalculia or just who are 297 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: working through heartbreak and just got their hearts broken, I 298 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 2: just kind of want to hug them all. And this 299 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 2: book feels like my opportunity to do that to just 300 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: hug them and send them some love. 301 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: So what do you feel like you learned about yourself 302 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: by transferring your experiences to the memoir. 303 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: I feel like I learned that I'm very flawed, that 304 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: I don't always make the best or healthiest decisions for myself. 305 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: And I also learned that I'm really strong, that I 306 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: have the ability to advocate for myself and to articulate 307 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: who I am and articulate what I need and honestly 308 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: like one of the biggest takeaways for me in the 309 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: process of writing was how I relate to my mother. 310 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: Reading the story back and seeing how she's portrayed just 311 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: made me have a lot more not respect, because I 312 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: obviously really respect my mom, but a lot more affection 313 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: for the way that she raised me and what she 314 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: had to sacrifice so that I could be a kind 315 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: of self affirming person who could make something like this 316 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: and put it out in the world. I feel like 317 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: I don't always understand how I've been mothered, but looking 318 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 2: at this book and reading this book helped me understand 319 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 2: how my mother mothered me and like what her style was, 320 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 2: and helped me understand why it turned out to be 321 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: probably a lot better off than I could have been. 322 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: And I'm not a mother, and I don't think that 323 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: I intend to be, but it does inspire me to 324 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: think differently about what we expect of moms, especially of 325 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: black moms dealing with mentally ill children who are likely 326 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: mentally ill themselves. Yeah. I just felt like she really 327 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: showed up in this narrative and I learned a lot 328 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: about her. 329 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: Have there been conversations with your mom since then that 330 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: have been difficult to have? 331 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: Not so much difficult. She hasn't read the book. When 332 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: I started writing poetry when I was sixteen, my mother 333 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: was like, your poetry is morbid and put it down, 334 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: walked away. She was just like, I don't want to 335 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 2: be sad when I read your work. But I have 336 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: sent her some screenshops of passages of where I'm talking 337 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 2: about her, and pretty much almost everything that I've sent her, 338 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: she's just confirmed. She's like, Yep, that's exactly how it happened, 339 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: That's exactly how I felt. You got that spot on, 340 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 2: That's exactly what I taught you. That's exactly what I said. 341 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: And it is validating because I think often when we 342 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: try to retell the stories of our child. We realized 343 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: somewhere along the lines that like the story we're telling 344 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: ourselves or the stories that we're telling others, is not 345 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: necessarily the same story that our parents are telling. And 346 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,719 Speaker 2: I feel like she continues to give me confirmation that 347 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 2: we actually are on the same page, that it did 348 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: happen the way I thought it happened, and that I'm 349 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: not making it up, and that's been really empowering. 350 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: We already talked a lot about, you know, some of 351 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: the content, but it is incredibly transparent, Like you, I 352 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: feel like, don't really hold back much in the book. 353 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: So you even shared about your experiences with heartbreak and 354 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: being cheated on? Was there any trepidation for you as 355 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: a black woman author writing about that or why did 356 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: you feel like it was important to share that? 357 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: There was some trepidation, But honestly, the reason why I 358 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: felt important to share was because when I was going 359 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 2: through it, I texted my then best friend and was like, 360 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: are there any books that you've read by black women 361 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: that are about heart break and being cheated on in 362 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: this way? And she could recount maybe three of them, 363 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: And even when I went to those books, it wasn't 364 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 2: exactly what I needed like it got me close, but 365 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: it wasn't exactly what I needed. And I remember her 366 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 2: saying to me, like, listen, you know what Tony Morrison says. 367 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: If you can't find it, then you have to write it. 368 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: And once I started writing it, I realized how much 369 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: I needed it and how much I needed my candor, 370 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,239 Speaker 2: and I needed to be honest and generous. And by 371 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: the time I finished it and sort of realized that 372 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 2: other people would be reading it, it felt senseless to 373 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 2: try to scale back or to limit what I put 374 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 2: on the page, since what I gave to myself was 375 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: exactly what I needed and I could only assume that 376 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: someone else might need it. And I just feel like 377 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 2: there are so many times where a black woman is 378 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: going through the world with no support in the situation 379 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: that she's dealing with, and I didn't want to create 380 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: another book that left her hanging. So if I can 381 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: have candor, and if I could be honest and be 382 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: generous in my depiction of my own pain, then maybe 383 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: that meant that she could have relief in her own 384 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: And that felt more important to me than the anxiety 385 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: of feeling embarrassment or feeling like I said too much. 386 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about the process, because 387 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: it sounds like this work came about because it was 388 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: what you felt like you needed to read at this 389 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: particular moment in your life, So you weren't necessarily setting 390 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: out to write this. This kind of came from experiences 391 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: in your life. What were you on task to write 392 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: as your next book? 393 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: I was just writing poetry. And when I started, I 394 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: wrote most of this book in my phone because at 395 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 2: first I just started writing small passages to my and 396 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: it was originally titled I Think Twenty Ways to Lose 397 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 2: Your Girlfriend or something like that, and it was a 398 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 2: poem that had these small stanzas that were sort of 399 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: dancing all over the page, and the poem format just 400 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: like didn't fit. I couldn't get honest enough. And in 401 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: the process, when I started writing these short paragraphs in 402 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 2: my notes, I realized that there was something there, something 403 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: like readable and generous that I just wasn't able to 404 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 2: get at with my poetry. So I just kept going 405 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: mainly for myself because I just felt like I needed it. 406 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 2: I needed to, but also for an assumed reader, right 407 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: like I was like, if my little sister were reading this, 408 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: would I want her to read this series of poems 409 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: or would I want her to read these like generous 410 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 2: and honest paragraphs. And yeah, one thing turned into another 411 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: and we have the. 412 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: Memoir slash poetry book. 413 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the poetry book is like hanging out now 414 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 2: begging me to be written. So I'm trying to pay 415 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 2: attention to her. And it's also going to be about 416 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: mental health, so they're all working in the same theme. 417 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: So there's a moment in your story where you can 418 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: fide it in your boss about your breakup and challenges, 419 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: and she suggested using work as a coping mechanism. Tell 420 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: me a little bit about why you think romantic breakups 421 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: don't carry the same weight and seriousness as other griefs 422 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: that people experience in their lives. 423 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's because it's something that everyone experiences. 424 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: And I know that that sounds a little contradictory because 425 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: you would assume that because it's something that everyone experiences, 426 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: everyone would take it seriously. But I think that because 427 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: there isn't death involved, right, and it's not as final 428 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 2: as death, and because it means that someone had to 429 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: make a choice, and because that happens to everyone at 430 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: some point in their lives. We all just fall into 431 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 2: the trap of like, that's life, right, Life is falling 432 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: in love and getting your heart broken, and every one 433 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 2: of us goes through it, and every one of us 434 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: has to endure, so you'll just have to get over it. 435 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: I think we see its ubiquity as a sign that 436 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: it can't be that serious because everyone experiences it, which 437 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: is different from the death of a parent or something 438 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 2: like that, where we all experience it, but it only 439 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 2: happens to you one time, right or twice, and it 440 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: usually happens at the end of your life. And it 441 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 2: does have a lot of material gravity, right. It changes 442 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: the materiality of your life when a parent dies, and 443 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: in the way that we grieve, But we don't think 444 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: about the materiality of a breakup and the way that 445 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,719 Speaker 2: it changes the system of the life around you. And 446 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: I think we have a lot of as a societ. 447 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: We have a lot of distractions. There's a lot of 448 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 2: ways to avoid processing your heartbreak and processing a breakup. 449 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 2: We have hookup culture, we have happy hour culture. Right. 450 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 2: There are so many ways that we set up that 451 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: we think allow us to move past heartbreak, when really 452 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: what we're doing is masking and hiding, and yeah, I 453 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: just think we undervalue it because we have that. 454 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: Access more from our conversation after the break I appreciate 455 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: you sharing that, and you know, I talk about that 456 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: as well in sisterhood heels around how romantic breakups, you know, 457 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: I feel like there's even more even though still not 458 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: enough support there. But friendship breakups are worse in a 459 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: lot of ways. 460 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I've definitely had a friendship breakup that 461 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 2: to this day, I'm still in therapy trying to process. 462 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 2: And this person and I fell out maybe four years ago, 463 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: and I feel like, even more so, there's even less 464 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: space in our society to talk about what it feels 465 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: like to lose a friend, especially if you lose them 466 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 2: in a traumatic way or whatever. I feel like that's 467 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 2: a story I want to write. 468 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: We'll be looking forward to that one. Yeah. So, based 469 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: on the support you feel like you did not get 470 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: around your breakup, what message or advice would you have 471 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: for your younger self related to romantic relationships ending, or 472 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: what advice would you like to share with people who 473 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: might be enjoying our conversation. 474 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: I would tell myself and anyone listening to call out 475 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: of work, especially if you can to turn the lights off, 476 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 2: to drink water right, to watch the sad shows, cry 477 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: as much as you want, eat as much ice cream 478 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 2: as you want. Literally, allow your brain and your body 479 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: to do the healing that it needs to do so 480 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: that you can come out on the other side of it. 481 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 2: And don't force your mind and your body to go 482 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,239 Speaker 2: straight into survival mode in order to process it. Let 483 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 2: your body take care of you. It wants to do that, right, 484 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 2: even if that means indulging in thousands of calories. Whatever 485 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 2: their calories, you can burn them later. I just wish 486 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 2: that I had given myself the chance to grieve within 487 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 2: the time that I had, because not being able to 488 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 2: grieve meant that it came out in this book later, right, which, like, yes, 489 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: it's a lovely book, and I'm very proud of what 490 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: I put out, But the anxiety and the pain that 491 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: I went through in trying to understand why I needed 492 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: to write this book, in trying to understand the care 493 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 2: I needed to give myself, could have been avoided if 494 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: I had just let myself feel what I needed to feel. 495 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: That's powerful advice, very very good stuff there. So what 496 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: do you feel like you learned about love by writing 497 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: the book. 498 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: I learn that love is a system, and that our 499 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: actions are calculations and we make choices based on what 500 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: we consider valuable and what we consider important. And I 501 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: learn that you don't always mean to hurt someone, but 502 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: that you may cause harm anyway, and that it's really 503 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: important to be accountable to that harm in whatever way 504 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: you can. And finally, and most importantly, I think I 505 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: learned that heartbreak doesn't necessarily mean that there is a villain. 506 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: Sometimes the victim and the villain are the same person, 507 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: and trying to sort of blow up that binary really 508 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 2: allows us to understand our own behaviors and to understand 509 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: how harm happens in love. And I take that into 510 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,239 Speaker 2: the relationship that I'm in now. There are choices is 511 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: that I get to make every day, and there are 512 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: some choices that allow me to love this person a 513 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: little bit more and choices that get in the way 514 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: of me loving them. And I want to make the 515 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 2: choice that allows me to love them more. So I 516 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: have to think really hard about my actions and control 517 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: my impulses, and if I can't control them, at least 518 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: evaluate them, like why do I have the impulse to 519 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 2: do this thing versus the other. 520 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious. Come on, how if in any way 521 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: did you work with mental health professionals as you were 522 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: writing the book. 523 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think I was in therapy as I 524 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: was writing this book, but I was medicated at least 525 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: for half of the process half of writing it. And 526 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: I think what I've learned about therapy and just mental 527 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: health care in general is that like for the most part, 528 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 2: you may not always, but for the most part, you 529 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: know what you need. And I knew that I needed 530 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: to process this in this book. And that's not to 531 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: say that I couldn't have used a therapist or that 532 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been useful to me, but that the 533 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: way that I needed to be therapized was through this 534 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: creative process. And so I was being medicated and making 535 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: sure to avoid episodes. At least in the latter half. 536 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: I've medicated to stay present. But I also wrote this 537 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: book as a way to talk to myself and to 538 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 2: do similar work that I knew I was hungry to 539 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: do with a therapist. And now that I'm back in therapy, 540 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 2: I see that book as a two year process of 541 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: me writing down everything that I needed to talk about 542 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: with a therapist and getting clarity on where I was 543 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 2: confused and what I've been frustrated with. And my therapist 544 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: now is like so proud of me and has been 545 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: a huge help as the book came out in helping 546 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: me navigate what it would feel like to have all 547 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: of these people engaging with the text and reading things 548 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 2: about my life. And I've learned that the process doesn't end. 549 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: There's so much work that I have to keep doing 550 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: in therapy and with my therapist to be able to 551 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: continue to show up for this book and show up 552 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: for myself and show up for everything that I'm going 553 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: to write in the future. And I really just like 554 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: I love therapy, I really do. And there's a part 555 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: of me that wishes I had been in therapy while 556 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 2: I wrote this book, Like I wonder what the book 557 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: would have looked like. I think that if I were 558 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: in therapy, that dynamic would have made itself into the book, 559 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: Like I would have been talking about my therapist and 560 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: talking about some of those conversations, which frankly could have 561 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 2: been really interesting. But yeah, that's pretty much how I 562 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: engaged with it. 563 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,239 Speaker 1: And have you used any passages from the book with 564 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: your therapist as a like, here, this is evidence of 565 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: what I was talking about or what I've experienced, or 566 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: do you just share based on what you've written in 567 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: the book. 568 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. I share with her what is in the book 569 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: and the things that I've said, and she takes it, 570 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: holds on to it, and is like, yes, I see 571 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: this in how you work. Now let's talk about what 572 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: we can do so that either this doesn't happen or 573 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: you avoid these impulses like going into an episode and 574 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: cheating on my ex. Right, Like using that as an 575 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: example of how scary it can be when I'm in 576 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: an episode and her helping me navigate why that's happening. 577 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: What is it that I'm running away from or attracted 578 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: to while I'm in an episode that causes me to 579 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 2: lose impulse control? Right? But I talk to her a 580 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 2: lot about the sort of life around the book. So 581 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: I'll tell her when I have an event or if 582 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: I had a conversation, like I'm definitely going to tell 583 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: her about this because I know she'll be excited, and 584 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 2: she's just like the best cheerleader. She's just so like, yes, 585 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: I'm proud of you. Keep going and it's crazy you 586 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: never realize how much you need that from a therapist 587 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 2: until you have it. I just did not know that 588 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 2: I needed my therapist to be so caring, like genuinely caring, 589 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 2: And now that I have her, I don't want to 590 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: go back to dealing with therapists who maintain that distance 591 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 2: that doesn't allow them to really get to know me 592 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 2: or for me to feel loved by them. Frankly right, 593 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 2: it's obviously like professional boundaries that are set up and 594 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 2: that are necessary. But I think that there's something so 595 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: special about feeling genuinely loved and liked by this person 596 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: that you spend money to hang out with once a 597 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: week and tell all your problems too. 598 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: So if there was one thing your readers of this 599 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: calculata could walk away learning, what would that thing be? 600 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 2: I think the one thing it would be is that 601 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: never let anyone tell you that learning information about yourself 602 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: is harmful to you. The more information you have about 603 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 2: who you are, about how you work, about how your 604 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 2: brain works and how your mind interacts with your body. 605 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: The more information you have about that, the more you 606 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 2: understand what you need, how you need it, and how 607 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 2: to that show up for yourself and the world, and 608 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 2: if that means going to therapy, getting a diagnosis, trying 609 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 2: out different sports, going to the doctor for full body 610 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 2: workups once a year, just so that you know all 611 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 2: the information that you could possibly have about yourself is 612 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: necessary to hold close to chess. 613 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: And besides your book, what other books or TV shows 614 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: or documentaries or any other kind of media do you 615 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: feel like do a really good job of addressing heartbreak? 616 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 2: Fleishman Is in Trouble is a TV show on Hulu 617 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 2: that is based on a novel by Taffy prodesster Acnor. 618 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 2: And it's about heartbreak, but it's also about mental health. 619 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 2: And I think the way that it's handled is really 620 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 2: really careful and really interesting. And I think even though 621 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 2: the mental health aspect is pretty implicit, it still does 622 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: everything that a good TV show about heartbreak does and 623 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 2: a good TV show about mental healthcare does. 624 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: I had not heard of that one. I definitely won't 625 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: add that one to my list. Thanks to check out. 626 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing it. So where can we stay 627 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,479 Speaker 1: connected with you? Kimon? What is your website and any 628 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like to share? And where can 629 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: we grab a copy of the book. 630 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 2: You can grab a copy of the book at any 631 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 2: place that books are sold bookshop. If your online is 632 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 2: a good place to get books, especially from independent booksellers, 633 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 2: please take a walk into your local bookstore and order 634 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 2: it there. Support local indies for sure. You can find 635 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 2: me on social media at my name, which is Camo Ngne. 636 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: I'm very active on Instagram. I love it there, so 637 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 2: if you can find me there, that's probably where you 638 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 2: get the most updates. I don't have a website yet, 639 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 2: but when I do, it'll probably just be my first 640 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 2: name and my last name dot com, so keep a 641 00:36:59,239 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 2: lookout for that. 642 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: Perfect will we short to include all of that in 643 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: the show notes. Thank you so much for sending some 644 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: time with us today. I appreciate it. 645 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, doctor Joy. 646 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: You're welcome. I'm so glad come one was able to 647 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: join us today to chat about Discalculia. To learn more 648 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: about her work, or to grab your copy of the book, 649 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com, 650 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: slash Discalculia, and don't forget to text two of your 651 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: girls right now and encourage them to check out the episode. 652 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check 653 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,919 Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com 654 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into 655 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters, 656 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. 657 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for 658 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy 659 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, 660 00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Brad. 661 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with another regular episode of 662 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 1: the podcast, but until then, take good care of yourself. 663 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: Which friend are you and your sister circle? Are you 664 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: the wallflower, the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader? Take 665 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: the quiz at Sisterhoodheels dot com slash quiz to find out, 666 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: and then make sure to grab your copy of Sisterhood 667 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: Heels to find out more about how you can be 668 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: a better friend and how your circle can do a 669 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: better job of supporting you. Order yours today at Sisterhoodheels 670 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: dot com.