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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's well, no, Jerry's not here. Man talk

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Speaker 2: about habit. Ben's here. It's the reign of Ben still

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Speaker 2: and that makes this these days stuff you should know.

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Speaker 3: That's right. The episode in which we talk about a

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Speaker 3: major reward.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not a leg lamp, but the Pulitzer Prize.

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Speaker 4: It is a you know, it's an award with much

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Speaker 4: prestige attached. They will be giving out the next round

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Speaker 4: on May eighth, probably not too long after this episode

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Speaker 4: comes out, in twenty three different categories. At a ceremony

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Speaker 4: at Columbia University in.

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Speaker 3: New York City, did you say Pulitzer? Pulitzer? What do

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Speaker 3: you say?

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Speaker 2: That's what I say now. I said Pulitzer for the

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Speaker 2: vast majority of my life.

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Speaker 3: Though, Do you know which is right?

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Speaker 2: I think Pulitzer. Okay, yeah, we've been corrected enough times.

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Speaker 2: I think it is Pulitzer. You got it right?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 4: Good they are and we'll go over all the categories.

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Speaker 4: But what you should know about the Pulitzer Prize is

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Speaker 4: they are distinguished works of American works, Yeah, in a

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Speaker 4: variety of categories. And I don't think even until yesterday

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Speaker 4: I fully realized that it was such a strictly American award.

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Speaker 2: I didn't either, which is ironic because it was the brainchild.

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Speaker 2: It was founded by Joseph Pulitzer, who was a Hungarian immigrant. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but loved America. Loved America so much he moved to

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Speaker 2: Missouri and didn't leave for a while.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: He was born into a wealthy family April tenth, eighteen

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Speaker 4: forty seven and was a real like ambitious dude. He

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Speaker 4: came over to fought to fight in the American Civil War.

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Speaker 3: For the Union. Yeah that's something, and did, in fact

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Speaker 3: enlists for a year in the Lincoln Cavalry.

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Speaker 4: But he became a newspaper publisher at the age of

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Speaker 4: twenty five, and by the time he was thirty one,

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Speaker 4: he was the owner of this Saint Louis Dispatch, like

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Speaker 4: a major paper.

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Speaker 2: Yet no, the Dispatch is still around. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's amazing. I didn't see how he ended up in

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Speaker 2: New York, but eventually he made his way to New

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Speaker 2: York and with his experience running a paper, took over

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Speaker 2: the world. The New York World, which was just a

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Speaker 2: New York paper in eighteen eighty three when he started,

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Speaker 2: but under his tenure it became the first national newspaper

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Speaker 2: like the USA today of its time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he was, like I said, he was a

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Speaker 3: tireless worker.

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Speaker 4: But he also suffered from poor health for most of

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Speaker 4: his life. I'm not sure exactly what it was, because

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Speaker 4: I saw that noises were a big deal. So he

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Speaker 4: would like have like rooms that were just like vaults

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Speaker 4: basically so he could sit in silence. But this poor health,

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Speaker 4: and I think he had failing vision two. He eventually,

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Speaker 4: at the young age of forty three, technically retired as

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Speaker 4: editor in chief of the World, but still really maintained

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Speaker 4: a pretty tight control over that paper.

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Speaker 2: Right. So today we think of Joseph Pulleitzer, we associate

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Speaker 2: his name with distinguished works of journalism, like the Cream

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Speaker 2: of the Crop of journalism every year, and that it

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Speaker 2: turns out as largely by design, because Joseph Pulleitzer, at

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Speaker 2: the time he was alive and running the New York World,

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Speaker 2: was well known for being the essentially the guy who

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Speaker 2: helped create yellow journalism, using hyperbole, using sensationalism, like writing

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Speaker 2: front page stories about people's divorces, like just scandal tabloid

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Speaker 2: stuff like this guy helped establish tabloid journalism in the

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Speaker 2: United States, And it might not have been quite so

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Speaker 2: pronounced his brand of yellow journalism had he not had

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Speaker 2: a like a rival who actually, in like perfect star

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Speaker 2: Wars in fashion, was actually his protege protege turned rival,

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Speaker 2: a guy named William Randolph.

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Speaker 4: Hurst, that's right, And they had the New York American Journal.

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Speaker 4: American was the big paper for Hurst at the time,

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Speaker 4: and they were in a real sort of neck and

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Speaker 4: neck battle to sell newspapers there in New York and

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Speaker 4: really kind of went at it yellow journalism style.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so yellow journalism, it turns out, has to do.

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Speaker 2: We must have talked about it in our comics episode

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Speaker 2: or whatever there was. The Yellow Kid was a character

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Speaker 2: on the comic called Hogan's Alley and the World and

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Speaker 2: the Journal American both had versions of this cartoon, essentially

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Speaker 2: one ripped off the other. So this was known as

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Speaker 2: the competition between the Yellow Kids, which came to be

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Speaker 2: known as yellow journalism. Right, and they would just pull

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Speaker 2: out all the stops, And apparently this race to the

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Speaker 2: bottom is largely blamed for starting the Spanish American War

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Speaker 2: essentially or at least getting America behind the whole thing,

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Speaker 2: so there was like real repercussions to it. People's lives

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Speaker 2: would be ruined. And so the idea that Joseph Pulitzer's

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Speaker 2: name is associated with, like the greatness of journalism is

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Speaker 2: really one of the better cases of I guess whitewashing

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Speaker 2: your image over time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, he did believe in great journalism. He

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Speaker 4: said at one point, my idea is to recognize that

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Speaker 4: journalism is or ought to be one of the great

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Speaker 4: and intellectual professions. And there's more to the quote, but

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Speaker 4: like he was, he had this idea that he revered

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Speaker 4: this journalism, maybe because he wasn't doing it. And in

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Speaker 4: eighteen ninety two he approached Columbia University president and said, hey,

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Speaker 4: how about we get a graduate school of journalism going

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Speaker 4: there isn't one in the whole world. They said, eh, no, thanks,

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Speaker 4: So Missouri, the Missouri University of Missouri School of Journalism

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Speaker 4: became the first one in nineteen oh eight. The Nobel

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Speaker 4: Prizes were launched in nineteen oh one, and right after that,

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Speaker 4: Joseph Pulleitzer said, well, why don't we have our own

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Speaker 4: awards for journalism. This is nineteen oh two. Two years later,

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Speaker 4: in nineteen oh four, in his will he said, hey, Columbia,

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Speaker 4: here's two hundred and fifty grand, which is about nine

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Speaker 4: million bucks today. Established these prizes, and Columbia had a

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Speaker 4: new president at the time, and they said this guy

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Speaker 4: named Nicholas Butler.

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Speaker 3: He was like, yeah, that sounds great.

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Speaker 4: I'll take that money, and I'll also take the two

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Speaker 4: million dollars that you're going to give us for that

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Speaker 4: graduate school that we now think is a good idea,

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Speaker 4: which is about seventy one million bucks today.

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Speaker 2: That's right, So very wisely, Joseph Pullitzer, he helped establish

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Speaker 2: his legacy. He steered what his name would be remembered

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Speaker 2: for by creating the foremost prize for journalists. Right.

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Speaker 3: He didn't live to see it though, right.

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Speaker 2: Uh No, I believe I don't know what year he died,

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Speaker 2: but it was before nineteen seventy nineteen seventeen.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he died in nineteen eleven, Okay, so he didn't

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Speaker 4: even I think the graduate school opened a year after that,

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Speaker 4: and then the Pulletzers didn't start until six years later.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So he probably died with his fingers crossed, and

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Speaker 2: it actually paid off because not only did he he

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Speaker 2: did two really smart things. Chuck. One, he created a

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Speaker 2: panel a board to oversee the Pulitzer Prizes, and he

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Speaker 2: very wisely said, you it's up to you guys to

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Speaker 2: let these prizes evolve with the times. Don't let them

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Speaker 2: just be stuck in like nineteen oh four type stuff, like,

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Speaker 2: we want them to just kind of grow and evolve,

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Speaker 2: and they have over time. That was very smart. And

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Speaker 2: then secondly, he tied them not just a journalist, but

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Speaker 2: to drama, to music, to fiction, poetry. And at the time,

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Speaker 2: the American arts were considered foreig inferior to Europe, but

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Speaker 2: they were still considered vastly superior to American journalism. So

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Speaker 2: by hitching the wagon of journalism to this more revered

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Speaker 2: and legitimate form of expression, he raised journalism as well

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Speaker 2: the profile of journalism, and it worked. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: was really sharp how we set all this up, because

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Speaker 2: it paid off in aces.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think music came after him because his initial

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Speaker 4: eight awards were four for journalism and then four book

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Speaker 4: and drama awards. Compared to the twenty three categories we

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Speaker 4: have today fifteen in journalism, five in books, one in drama,

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Speaker 4: one in music, and one for graduate fellowships in journalism.

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Speaker 4: And I say we take an early break, yeah, and

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Speaker 4: go over these categories.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Lately I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or alumnia.

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Speaker 1: How about the one on borderl disorder that are under order.

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Speaker 1: You've heard that one be more, but it was so

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Speaker 1: nice I learned this.

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Speaker 5: Why except everybody listen up, stop stop lead stop stop stop.

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Speaker 4: So we're gonna go over all twenty three categories. Dave

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Speaker 4: helped us with this, So we'll just tell you a

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Speaker 4: little bit about him because there's so many and maybe

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Speaker 4: mentioned like some notable winners or maybe this past year's winner.

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Speaker 2: This is going to be a four parter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. One thing you will notice is that.

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Speaker 4: He was a populist guy, Joseph Pulitzer was very sort

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Speaker 4: of progressive populist. Even though he was a wealthy dude

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Speaker 4: from a wealthy family. He really wanted to identify with

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Speaker 4: a common person. And the winners, as you'll see, still

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Speaker 4: have a very sort of populous progressive bit to them.

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Speaker 3: Yes, very much so to this day. And it's you know,

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Speaker 3: through Columbia university.

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Speaker 4: Still, so it's not You're not gonna see Alex Jones

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Speaker 4: winning a Pulitzer Prize, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, for one of many reasons such a shock.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the first one, the big Daddy, as they call

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Speaker 2: it at Columbia, is the Public Service Award. This is

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Speaker 2: the only Pulitzer award that comes with an actual engraved medal. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's what they expect you to do when they hand

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Speaker 2: you the medals. Dave who helped us with us he

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Speaker 2: put it, it's like the MVP of Pulitzers. Yeah, this

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Speaker 2: is so if you win this one, usually it's for

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Speaker 2: an entire organization. Sometimes they'll they'll mention like the lead writer,

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Speaker 2: if it was basically the work of one person. But

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Speaker 2: usually it's like the New York Times newsroom, or the

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Speaker 2: Washington Post newsroom, or yea once in a while, the

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Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal's newsroom. Usually one of the big news

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Speaker 2: services organizations are the ones who win the Public Service Award.

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Speaker 4: That's right, that's the big Daddy. So there's also the

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Speaker 4: Breaking News Reporting Award. Obviously, it's about breaking news and

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Speaker 4: it is for a story that quote as quickly as possible,

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Speaker 4: captures events accurately, as they occur and as time passes, eliminates,

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Speaker 4: provides contexts, and expands upon the initial coverage. One notable

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Speaker 4: winner was the Denver Post the year the Columbine massacre happened,

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Speaker 4: or the New Orleans Times pick a UNI for their

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Speaker 4: coverage of Katrina in two thousands, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, journalism, what journalism is supposed to be. They have

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Speaker 2: a special award for that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, newsy journalism.

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Speaker 2: There's also investigative reporting, which you don't really need to

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Speaker 2: spell out because sure you know it is what it is.

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Speaker 2: But for this year, the Wall Street Journal one, they

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Speaker 2: had a series of articles, and that's a recurring theme.

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Speaker 2: Very frequently the winners have had a series of articles

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Speaker 2: rather than just one big whopper of an article. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that's actually by design, as we'll see. But there

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Speaker 2: was a series of articles about the conflicts of interest

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Speaker 2: between people at fifty different federal agencies and the stocks

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Speaker 2: of the companies that they regulated, and how they used

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Speaker 2: that information to basically trade publicly. Like you remember our

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Speaker 2: COVID episode where we started shouting about how some of

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Speaker 2: the senators who were debriefed on COVID and then went

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Speaker 2: and sold stock should be locked up. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: about that basically.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: What is for explanatory reporting if it's like a really

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Speaker 4: complex topic that someone can break down in a in

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Speaker 4: a great way.

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Speaker 3: One for local reporting. So yeah, that speaks for itself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is where it's much easier for a

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Speaker 2: smaller organization to shop. Yeah, sure, that's good. Else there's

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Speaker 2: also national reporting, again usually goes to the larger, the

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Speaker 2: larger organizations just because they cover more of the nation.

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Speaker 2: International reporting, same thing. And then feature writing, where you're

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Speaker 2: you're also kind of credited for bringing in style, like

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Speaker 2: making a like taking a topic and actually like making

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Speaker 2: it more readable in some ways. There's just some a

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Speaker 2: certain flare to it. It's like the TGI Fridays of Pulitzers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought.

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Speaker 2: I'd get a bigger reaction out, even you jerk.

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Speaker 4: Commentary. That is for columnists, but it is not editorial columns.

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Speaker 3: That's another one.

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Speaker 4: Criticism, like if you're a you know, drama critic or

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Speaker 4: a restaurant critic or someone like that. Like Roger Ebert

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Speaker 4: won one in nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 2: So did our old friend Michiko Kakutani, who, as Dave

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Speaker 2: helpfully pointed out as a she for me because I

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Speaker 2: got it so so wrong before, so so.

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Speaker 3: Wrong, which will we already corrected, Dave. Yeah, what else?

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Speaker 4: We do have one for editorial writing. This is for

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Speaker 4: you know, either editorial boards or op ed writers. Right,

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Speaker 4: illustrated reporting. This is a fun one because that's for

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Speaker 4: editorial cartoonists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what they used to call it, and then

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Speaker 2: they changed it to illustrated reporting and commentary. And for

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Speaker 2: this year, Mona Chellabi won for The New York Times.

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Speaker 2: She had a series illustrating Jeff Bezos's wealth and they

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Speaker 2: were all pretty clever and interesting, so were the finalists

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Speaker 2: the runners up too, but she had one that showed

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Speaker 2: so it compared the avera Ridge Amazon employees wages to

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Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos's wealth, and so that the average Amazon employee

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Speaker 2: made thirty seven, nine and thirty dollars in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: and at that rate, to reach Jeff Bezos's wealth of

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Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy two billion, they would have had

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Speaker 2: to have started working in the Pliocene epoch four point

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Speaker 2: five million years ago. They really drove it home to me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those are always fun, Yeah you can.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to say like, oh, was it

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Speaker 4: just a sack of money in the shape of the

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Speaker 4: United States or something.

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Speaker 2: No, it was much more telling that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's how you went a Pulitzer exactly.

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Speaker 2: But I mean the runners up too, were just just

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Speaker 2: just good stuff. Like go look up illustrated reporting and

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Speaker 2: commentary Pulitzer stuff and you'll you'll be like, wow, this

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Speaker 2: is amazing that people do this.

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Speaker 3: We should we should do one on political what are

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Speaker 3: they called cartoons?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, editorial cartoons.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we should do one on that whole thing.

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Speaker 3: That'd be a fun one, I think.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yumy's uncle is an editorial cartoonist, a well known

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Speaker 2: one in Japan.

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Speaker 3: No way, way, wow, all right, well, we're definitely gonna

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Speaker 3: do it. Then, okay, that's the old deal.

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Speaker 2: Cool.

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Speaker 4: I have seen that there's breaking news photography, you know,

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Speaker 4: that's obviously some usually some tragedy is unfolding and someone

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Speaker 4: will snap a iconic photo. Different from the feature photography award.

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Speaker 4: This is like a photo series usually yeah that has

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Speaker 4: a tells a story.

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Speaker 3: That's feature photography.

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Speaker 2: It's more flip bookie than the breaking news photography.

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Speaker 4: And then finally, everybody introduced just a few years ago

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Speaker 4: audio reporting, Like there is a they don't call it

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Speaker 4: the Podcast Award, but that's kind of what it is.

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Speaker 2: Well, it includes podcasts, but it can also include like

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Speaker 2: local yeah, public radio, like features and stories and all that.

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Speaker 2: That's a huge expansion because before it was all print,

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Speaker 2: it was all writing, as we'll see. So that's a big,

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Speaker 2: a big new one. And there's another new one coming

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Speaker 2: down the pike that allows broadcast outlets like say, your

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Speaker 2: local NBC affiliate it's a really great reporter that writes

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Speaker 2: on their website that reporter will now be eligible for

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Speaker 2: Pulitzer stuff.

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Speaker 3: That's cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Then there's also the whole book section, which is interesting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the Prize for Fiction used to be called the

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Speaker 4: Prize for novels, but now it's fiction. Usually it's about

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Speaker 4: American life, says you know, preferably, but it's American author

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Speaker 4: generally with a story about Americans American ing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So every year they picked that year's Great American

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Speaker 2: novel basically.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's remember I said I was reading a book,

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Speaker 4: a novel for the first time in a while recently. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I picked this book because that's sometimes when I'm after

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Speaker 4: a novel and it's been in a while, I will

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Speaker 4: go to the Pulitzer list, and that's exactly what I did.

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Speaker 4: And I'm reading Less by Andrew Sean Greer, which one

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Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, and it is so funny and great awesome.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: From in Living Color to Pulitzer Price.

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Speaker 3: Oh, David Allen Greer com.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh that's right. There's also one on history, a

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Speaker 2: one on biography also other way outs biography.

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Speaker 3: Your man, Charles Mann has not won the Pulitzer. I

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Speaker 3: looked it up. I was like, surely Josh's guy won

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Speaker 3: this award for history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's more. He's more focused on meso American.

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Speaker 2: This is America, like United States American.

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Speaker 3: I think that counts.

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Speaker 2: I agree, But apparently the Pulitzer committee is not interested

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Speaker 2: in that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: He won which was yours fourteen ninety one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the follow up was fourteen ninety three.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he won a big award for that, but not

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Speaker 3: the Pulitzer.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, he definitely deserved it for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So you mentioned biography.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's also now memoir or autobiography, sure.

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Speaker 3: Which was branded this past year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just really busting out the new awards.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they got a Poetry Award for American Poets

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Speaker 3: general nonfiction.

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Speaker 2: That would be what our book won a Politzer.

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Speaker 4: For, right, so nonfiction but not a memoir or autobiography

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Speaker 4: or biography.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm not sure if we said this, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it was spelled out, but the

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Speaker 2: it had to have been released in that year. Yeah, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: so the good point. Okay, that's that's very important. So

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Speaker 2: like our book will never win a Pulitzer because it

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Speaker 2: had a shot at winning the year it came out,

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Speaker 2: and then after that it's out of the running.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Same uh, same with drama. There's a drama one that

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Speaker 2: we said, like usually it is a great American play.

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Speaker 2: David Mammott won for Glengarry Glenn Ross.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what's the name one, oh David.

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Speaker 3: Well Miranda, Yes, that guy, Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: August Wilson won for Fences, another great play. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: great great plays.

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Speaker 2: And then music, and this one's typically kind of controversial

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Speaker 2: because it really reveals just how stuffy the Pulitzer board is.

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Speaker 2: In any given year. It almost always goes to a

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Speaker 2: like a recording of classical music that somebody released that year,

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Speaker 2: and classical music is not exactly America's contribution. These are

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Speaker 2: American awards. Don't forget about America by Americans. Typically well,

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Speaker 2: America contributed jazz, rock for the most part, and hip

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Speaker 2: hop very clearly as far as music goes, and only

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Speaker 2: one hip hop artist. I'm surprised that there's even one.

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Speaker 2: Kendrick Lamar won a Pulletzer in twenty seventeen. A couple

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Speaker 2: of jazz cats have, but for the most part, it's

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Speaker 2: usually classical music. So look for that to continue to

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Speaker 2: change in the future because from what I can tell,

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Speaker 2: the Pulletzer people are hyper aware of how they are

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Speaker 2: perceived in the in the intelligentsia version of pop culture

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Speaker 2: and respond to it subtly over time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what I want to know is how many of

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Speaker 4: our friends in Britain their heads about to pop off.

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Speaker 2: That's why I said kind of I qualified the invented

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Speaker 2: rock and roll. We had a lot to do with it.

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Speaker 3: Hey, of course we did.

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Speaker 2: Chuck Berry was in British.

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Speaker 3: No, I know, we trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm with you, okay, And some can even say that

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Speaker 4: the you know, the American Blues is the true birth

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Speaker 4: of what would become rock and roll because all those

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Speaker 4: British bands were influenced by the American blues exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah to stick it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, take that our British friends.

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Speaker 4: You know what's interesting though, is the biggest sort of

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Speaker 4: rock bands of the classic rock era, most of those

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00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 4: were not American. I mean that we had our share,

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Speaker 4: but like when you think about you know, the biggest

387
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,719
Speaker 4: bands in the world, they were led Zeppelin and the Who,

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Speaker 4: and the Rolling Stones and the Beatles and mostly British.

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Speaker 2: So super super duper classic version, not like White Lion

390
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: or Dockin No, no, no, because they were Americans through

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Speaker 2: and through.

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Speaker 4: My friend Yeah, yeah, I mean we had Boston and

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Speaker 4: the Eagles and Aerosmiths and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but they have flatbirds.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: Boys, See, you're taking a rite down the White Lion lane.

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Speaker 2: All right? Should we keep going or should we take

399
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Speaker 2: a break here?

400
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Speaker 3: Uh, let's keep going since we already took it early one.

401
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 2: Okay. If you guys thought it was a slog before

402
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Speaker 2: buckle up.

403
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Speaker 4: That's right, because we're going to talk about how they

404
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 4: choose these and the first step. And I think the

405
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Speaker 4: main reason we didn't win a Pulitzer Prize is that

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Speaker 4: we didn't submit our book.

407
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Speaker 3: You gotta submit.

408
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Speaker 4: They just don't say, all right, every book that's written

409
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Speaker 4: this year will look at you.

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Speaker 3: You got to. You gotta pay your seventy five bucks

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Speaker 3: and submit it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we didn't have seventy five bucks.

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00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 3: We did.

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00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: We thought about it. We couldn't couldn't get the company

415
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: to back us or.

416
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 4: Pay us to stand off. You and I had to

417
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 4: standoff of it was like, well, I know you got it.

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Speaker 4: You're not gonna pay it.

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Speaker 3: I'm it.

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Speaker 2: I noticed Jerry didn't step forward.

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00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's Jerry needs to bust out the wallet one.

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Speaker 2: There are a couple of like our book would have

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Speaker 2: qualified and every other way it had to have been

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Speaker 2: published in a hard copy definitely was That separates a

425
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 2: lot of the self published ebooks, which apparently are not

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Speaker 2: up for Pulitzer consideration. Unless you self publish a book

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Speaker 2: in hard copy. As long as this in hard copy somewhere,

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00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 2: it's eligible to be considered for a Pulitzer, and you,

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Speaker 2: the author, like you said, can suggest it, can nominate

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Speaker 2: it yourself.

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00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 4: If you're entering in journalism, it has to be in

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Speaker 4: a news outlet that publishes regularly, so it can't be

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00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 4: the zine you put out, you know when you feel

435
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 4: like it. Right, that can be online only versions. It

436
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 4: doesn't have to be in pay per form, but it

437
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 4: has to be like a legit, you know, qualifying website.

438
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: Yes, for sure. And then now, like I was saying,

439
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: broadcast media outlets, their writers can can be eligible for

440
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: stuff posted on their websites, But there's nothing for documentaries.

441
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: There's nothing for video only journalism. I predict this changing

442
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: in the next within this decade.

443
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, they'll be just one for like content creator, their influencer.

444
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 4: Dave makes a point here to watch out for when

445
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 4: something claims to be bullets are nominated, because if you

446
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 4: have submitted, then you're technically nominated. It doesn't mean that

447
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 4: you're special because anyone can can nominate. If if you've

448
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 4: got seventy five bucks, you can and you qualify, you

449
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 4: can put yourself in there. I say that they should

450
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 4: require people just say bullets are submitted.

451
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 2: Right, we can't even claim that.

452
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, but if you don't win. The only other sort

453
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 4: of distinctive honor is if you're one of the three

454
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 4: finalists and you can claim to be a finalist.

455
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's yeah. If you're a policer finalist, Like,

456
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: you can still toot that horn for sure and people

457
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: will listen.

458
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're like three out of I think they are

459
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 4: eleven hundred journalism entries per year on average.

460
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: Wow, and about fourteen hundred books.

461
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, now we reach step two. Like your

462
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 2: work has been nominated, it gets shuffled together with a

463
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: lot of other stuff and about one hundred different jurors,

464
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: sometimes repeat jurors from the year before. You don't have

465
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: to just do it once. And it's not the same

466
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: people every year for sure. But they're all volunteer jurors.

467
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: They get assigned to twenty two different categories. And yes

468
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 2: we said there's twenty three. But the photographers who are

469
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: the jurors judge both breaking news and feature photography, and

470
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 2: they are people who are some time former Pulitzer winners.

471
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: There are people who are like really well known in

472
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: their field. I think like Roxane Gay was one of

473
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: the jurors on this past year's poetry Poetry Committee. I

474
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: think so, Like you're you're probably pretty good at your

475
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 2: job if you're on a Pulitzer jury.

476
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 3: Josh, I have one question, though, what are any of

477
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: those jurors.

478
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: Jurors for the local reporting ones.

479
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, Giral jurors, Yep, that's great.

480
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 4: You usually serve a few years and then they'll rotate

481
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 4: you out.

482
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: It is.

483
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 4: You don't get paid for it's a volunteer thing, but

484
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 4: you got If you're on the book side, you were

485
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: reading a lot of books.

486
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently for the fiction category, there might be three

487
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: hundred books that you have to read through within several months.

488
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: Now.

489
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 4: I tried and tried to find out if that was

490
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 4: because what I saw was there are six book juries

491
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 4: with five jurors per jury, so thirty different judges, and

492
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 4: they send them in thirty book packages. But I didn't know,

493
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: are they really it's impossible to read three hundred books

494
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 4: over the course of months, not if.

495
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: You're Pulitzer jury material, My friend.

496
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 3: Is that the deal?

497
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: Because I was trying to verify that, I thought maybe

498
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 4: they read thirty each and just it was all like

499
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 4: packaged together or something.

500
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: I didn't see anywhere that contradicted that. And yes, three

501
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: hundred books is a lot to read. As a matter

502
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: of fact, now that that we're talking about it, that

503
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: is a preposterous number for one person to read within

504
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: several months.

505
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: I mean, how many books is that a week? Two weeks?

506
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: One hundred? I think if my math is correct.

507
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 3: That's almost six books a week. Is that possible?

508
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: No, it's not, because these people also have like regular

509
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: jobs that their whole holding down too.

510
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

511
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 4: So I really looked and looked and looked, and I

512
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 4: could not find. What I'm guessing is is that they

513
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 4: get thirty books per judge.

514
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: Which is still quite a bit. But yes, that's much

515
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: more manageable than three hundred.

516
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 4: I hope somebody knows, because I really want to get

517
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 4: to the bottom of this. There's no way there they're

518
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 4: reading three hundred books.

519
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: I wonder.

520
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: I wonder if each judge so this would make a

521
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: lot of sense. And again, like we've never advertised ourselves

522
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: as experts, and I think we're showing it big time now.

523
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: But if I were guessing, chuck each if each one

524
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: reads thirty books, they pick like their favorites and present

525
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: them to the committee and say, these are some of

526
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: my favorites. And everybody does that, and it immediately whittles

527
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: it down to a manageable size. That would make a

528
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 2: lot of sense. And then maybe the other ones have

529
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: to read the books that the other people brought forth.

530
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, rat, I mean that makes sense. I was just

531
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 4: destraughed at how hard it was to find this out.

532
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: I looked and looked and looked, and I couldn't find

533
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 4: out for sure if they each read each book.

534
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: So that's an ongoing thing too. From what I've seen

535
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: that the deliberation process is very secretive. The Pulitzer Committee

536
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: and board and anyone associated with it has no obligation

537
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: whatsoever to be transparent about the judging process at all.

538
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

539
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is a criticism. But ultimately what happens is

540
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 4: they will meet in person in February at Columbia, sometimes

541
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 4: in March, and they reduce it to the three finalists,

542
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 4: and then the board picks the ultimate winner from each

543
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 4: of the picks of three. Well that's not true. They

544
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 4: are generally picked from that group of three, but they

545
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: are not required to pick from that group of three.

546
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 4: And there have been many cases leap twelve times in

547
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: fiction at least, where they did not award a winner

548
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 4: at all.

549
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Anytime the board decides not to pick somebody, it's

550
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: a huge it's considered a huge slap in the face.

551
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: As recently as twenty twenty one. So twenty twelve for fiction,

552
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, for the Editorial Cartoon prize, the board

553
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: opted not to choose from the three finalists Lalo Alcaraz,

554
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: Marty two Boles Senior, and Ruben Bowling from Tom the

555
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: Dancing Bug. They were the three finalists and none of

556
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: them won.

557
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 3: And so with he did someone win? No, they look

558
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 3: like there was no award to gotcha.

559
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: No award? And I saw Ruben Bowling was basically like, so, yeah,

560
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: they're saying no one made Pulitzer worthy material this year,

561
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: and that's that's like, that's crazy. And but I liked

562
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: Marty two Ball's interpretation. He said that to him, they

563
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: had so much trouble picking a winner that nobody won.

564
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 2: They all spoiled when another's chance, because there has to

565
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: be there can be a hung jury. You have to

566
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: get some percentage of the votes to make it as

567
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: the as the winner and not just a finalist.

568
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 4: Well that's what happened in twenty twelve for sure, because

569
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 4: they actually came out and said for fiction.

570
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: That it was a three way tie.

571
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: That's rare. With the editorial cartoon in twenty twenty one,

572
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: they just stayed, Mom, They just said, no awards going

573
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: to be awarded.

574
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, but like, how do you have a tie, Like

575
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: you could either have an odd number on the board

576
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 4: or let that president because the president of Columbia is

577
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 4: always on the board. Still they should be the tie

578
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: breaker or something.

579
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: That is a huge criticism that that's even possible that

580
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: you couldn't do that not have a winner because they deadlock.

581
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: All right, thumbs down Bulleitzer for that decision for me

582
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 4: to get with the times.

583
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: So you hit on something earlier. You thought I was saying,

584
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: the board can select somebody that wasn't even nominated by

585
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: the jury.

586
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, if it's not someone outside that final three.

587
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they apparently just need a three quarters vote to

588
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: either select somebody that wasn't nominated, that was in that

589
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: category or was in another category, and they moved them

590
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: to a category they think they are likeli or to win.

591
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: That happened with the biography of George Floyd this past year.

592
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: It was nominated in biography. Apparently this biography and Jaeger

593
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: Hoover with such gangbusters that it was no way even

594
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: George Floyd's biography was going to win. They moved it

595
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: to the general nonfiction category, and George Floyd's biography won

596
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: in that one. So it's like you said, the Pulitzer

597
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: committee is very conscious of the messages they're sending out

598
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: by their awards, for sure, and sometimes they maneuver to

599
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: speak loud and clear.

600
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 4: All right, I say we take our second break, and

601
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 4: we'll finish up with talking about some of the controversies

602
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 4: and some of the surprises over the years.

603
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: Lately I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or aluminia.

604
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: How about the one on border like disorder, better under order?

605
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: Heard that one before, but it was so nice I

606
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: learned it.

607
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 5: Wise, everybody, listen up, stop shut off, stop stop stop.

608
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: So uh. One of the things that the Pulitzers are

609
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: definitely criticized for is the frequency, Yeah, the frequency of

610
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 2: ords that go to the same news organizations over and

611
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: over and over again, because the Pulitzers were award extensive

612
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: in depth reporting that you really kind of have to

613
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: have a pretty decent budget to carry out. And so

614
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: The New York Times has won one hundred and thirty

615
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: two Pulitzers over the years. The Washington Post has seventy plus,

616
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: The Associated Press has fifty eight so like the big

617
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: news organizations are the ones who usually take home the most,

618
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 2: but they have it set up in a way that,

619
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: like the local news reporting is much likelier to go

620
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: to a smaller organization than the bigger guys. But that

621
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: big one, the big daddy, as we said, the Public

622
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: Service Award almost always goes to or very often goes to,

623
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: one of the large news organizations. But that's not always

624
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: the case, Chuck, it's not always the case.

625
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 3: That's right.

626
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 4: In twenty seventeen for editorial writing the Storm Lake Times one,

627
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 4: this is a speaking a rural juror. They probably went

628
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 4: wild over this because this is a paper that runs

629
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 4: twice a week with a staff of nine people, with

630
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 4: a circulation of about three thousand in rural Iowa. And

631
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 4: it beat the big daddies, that beat the New York

632
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 4: Times in the Wall Street Journal, among others.

633
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. In nineteen ninety, a few years earlier, the Washington

634
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 2: Daily News out of Washington, North Carolina. They won because

635
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: they had a series of articles that exposed that the

636
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: city council was well aware that the drinking water was

637
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: tainted with carcinogens and that they were covering it up.

638
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: And they won a pulletzer. They had a circulation of

639
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: eighty six hundred and forty four. So, in addition to

640
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 2: these really good reporting that it would require for a

641
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: small organization to win the public service pullets or the

642
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 2: big one, it's worth pointing out these people are under

643
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: the most pressure to not publish stories like that. Yeah,

644
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: their friends, neighbors and grocery store shoppers, with the mayor,

645
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: with the city manager, with the Chamber of Commerce head

646
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: like the people who are who can pressure them and

647
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: say like, you're you're ruining the image of our town.

648
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: Don't don't write about this or change the tone of it.

649
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 2: So in that sense, those people deserve a pulletzer even

650
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 2: more than say, you know, a huge organization that can

651
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 2: that can just kind of deflect that kind of stuff

652
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: is under tremendous pressure. There's a difference getting a call

653
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: from the president saying I don't want you to run

654
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: this and getting a call from the mayor saying you

655
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: don't want to run this, But it's still it seems different.

656
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: I feel like the pressure is even greater for smaller

657
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: news organizations.

658
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 4: So as far as controversies go, there are a few

659
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 4: kind of famous incidents that not incidences. By the way,

660
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 4: I've been saying that wrong, have you. An incidents doesn't

661
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 4: mean something that happened, it's an incident.

662
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

663
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 3: Somebody pointing that out to me.

664
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, believe it or not.

665
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 4: Someone wrote in and point out out something that we

666
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 4: said that was bothered them.

667
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: That's a first.

668
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 4: Anyway, we should talk about these incidents.

669
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 3: The first one was from nineteen eighty one.

670
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 4: A woman named Janet Cook at the time was writing

671
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 4: for the Washington Post and was the first black woman

672
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 4: to get a Politzer Prize and feature writing well I

673
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 4: think journalism period. And this was a story about called

674
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 4: Jimmy's World, about an eight year old heroin addict named

675
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 4: Jimmy and Washington, d C.

676
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: It had such an effect that at the time Marion

677
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: Barry was mayor. Marion Barry was mayor of DC forever.

678
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: He ordered his administration to find this kid and get

679
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: him away from his parents. It was a huge It

680
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: just dropped a bomb on not just Washington, d C.

681
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: But the whole country. And Janet Cook made the whole

682
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: thing up.

683
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

684
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 4: So it was submitted by who at the time was

685
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 4: the assistant managing editor of the post, a guy named

686
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 4: Bob Woodward, none other than and he submitted this thing.

687
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: She had previously, for three years worked for the Toledo Blade,

688
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 4: which was her hometown newspaper and Josh's sometown newspaper. And

689
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 4: they were like, wait a minute, she worked here, and

690
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 4: we're looking at her bio from the Pulitzer Committee, and like,

691
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 4: this doesn't match up with the bio that she gave us.

692
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 4: It says she speaks all these languages. She doesn't speak

693
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 4: all these languages. She didn't graduate magna cum laude from Vassar,

694
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 4: she didn't have a master's degree from University of Toledo.

695
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 4: And so they start kind of like her old employer

696
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 4: started grilling her publicly about this, and she initially said, like,

697
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 4: all right, I fudged my resume some and literally within

698
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 4: hours it all fell apart. She eventually copped to making

699
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 4: up this whole story. This is as Marion Barry and

700
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 4: the DC cops are coming up empty looking for this

701
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 4: non existent kid, and Marion Barry's casting public doubt. But

702
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 4: was in a you know, kind of a pickle of

703
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 4: a situation. Yeah, like it seems like there's no Jimmy,

704
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: but like we're not sure what's going on. I think

705
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 4: the sad thing is that apparently it's sort of like

706
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 4: the A Million Little Pieces book. Yeah, that guy wrote

707
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 4: like I read that book and it was great with

708
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 4: a capital G. And in my mind I was always like, dude,

709
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 4: why did you just should have called it a novel

710
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 4: and you would have been fine. And apparently the writing

711
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 4: in Jimmy's world was so great, like really famous authors

712
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 4: came out and we're like, I just wish she hadn't

713
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 4: have done this all. You know, she should have won

714
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 4: the Nobel Prize for Literature.

715
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 3: That was so good.

716
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 4: But she put herself out there for a pulletzer and

717
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 4: that was that was the fatal flaw.

718
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it took days before she finally fested up

719
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: and and and retracted the story and said that she

720
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: was returning her pulletzer, which from what I could tell,

721
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: she didn't have to do. She could have been like,

722
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: thanks for the pulletzer jumps, I don't I guess they

723
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: could rescind it, but she didn't have to give it back.

724
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: So she did and moved to France and just stayed

725
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: in communicado for a decade or two and then Teresa Carpenter,

726
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: who wrote the story Death of a Playmate about the

727
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: murder of Dorothy Stratton in The Village Voice, ended up

728
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 2: winning the nineteen eighty one Pulletzer for feature writing. She was,

729
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: I guess the runner up, and after Janet Cook gave

730
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: it back, Teresa Carpenter got it and that was a

731
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: really good story. It was definitely pullets are worthy.

732
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

733
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 4: Alex Haley was another one in nineteen seventy seven for

734
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 4: his book Roots, which I never knew it had a colon,

735
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 4: but I didn't either. The full title of Roots was

736
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 4: Roots Colon the Saga of an American Family. I think

737
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 4: I've seen it before on the cover, but it they

738
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 4: didn't call it mini series that so.

739
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: Plus the colon was implied.

740
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

741
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 4: It was a novel, but Haley claimed that it was

742
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 4: based on his family from his own African heritage that

743
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 4: he had researched, and it turned out that that probably

744
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 4: wasn't true. It was unverified, and he admitted to plagiarizing

745
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 4: parts of Roots from other novels. At the time, they

746
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 4: did not rescind his Bulletser though it was a special citation.

747
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 4: It wasn't the Book Prize, So I think they just

748
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 4: let it slide.

749
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a real campaign to get that special citation,

750
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 2: even rescinded by some people. But yeah, I had no

751
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 2: idea that Roots was fabricated in some ways or plagiarized

752
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,959
Speaker 2: to And then there's a guy named Walter Duranty who

753
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 2: inspired so much. I guess dislike is a nice way

754
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: to put it among journalists that he was awarded the

755
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: Poltzer back in nineteen thirty two. People still today are

756
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: calling for that to be rescinded. And then the war

757
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 2: in Ukraine kind of flared it back up again after

758
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,280
Speaker 2: kind of dying off a little. He was the Moscow

759
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: bureau chief for the New York Times, a Pulitzer, like

760
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: I said in thirty two, for his reporting on Joseph

761
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 2: Stalin and Stalin's dictatorship, and essentially he was the guy

762
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: who was presenting Stalin in a really great light to America.

763
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: He was a huge apologist for Stalin. And it's gross

764
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: because in his Pulitzer award it says that he was

765
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 2: awarded for his dispassionate reporting. It was not just passionate

766
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: at all. It was in favor of Stalin and Stalin's

767
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: policies that killed millions of people.

768
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and one of his direct quotes was to pretty brutally,

769
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 4: you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. But when

770
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 4: talking about the death of Ukrainians.

771
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: Right, so he still has his Pulitzer. People are still

772
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: mad about it.

773
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, we did mention the you know, the sort of

774
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 4: secrecy of how it goes out is always controversial. And

775
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,439
Speaker 4: it's like any award, any subjective award, whereas he whether

776
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 4: it's Academy Awards or Emmy's or whatever, they're all subjective.

777
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 4: So there's always going to be people complaining that it's

778
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 4: not rigged. But just like you got to be a

779
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 4: certain kind of thing to win this award. Just like

780
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 4: an Oscar bait movie that they throw out at the

781
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: end of the year, there are Pulitzer I don't know

782
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 4: about bait, but you know, when these publications are putting

783
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 4: together these series, they're like, hey, you do a good

784
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 4: job here, and you know what might be at the

785
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 4: end of that road.

786
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: Right, there's a really great you can characterize it as

787
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: a takedown very easily by Jack Schaeffer in Politico called

788
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: the Pulitzer Prize scam from a few years back, and

789
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: Jack Schaeffer basically is like, how could you possibly compare

790
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 2: some of this stuff and find any distinguishable difference enough

791
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: that says this one's better than this one? And an

792
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 2: example I came up with is the editorial writing Pulitzer

793
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,399
Speaker 2: for twenty twenty three. It went to a writer for

794
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: a series on the broken promises of the city of

795
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: Miami to citizens. Right, the runners up were one that

796
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 2: explained the U'voldi tragedy and the botched police response, and

797
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: then the other runner up was about how domestic white

798
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 2: supremacist terrorism affects the United States. How could you compare

799
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: those three things and be like, Yep, this one's better.

800
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: I mean, because the writing in and of itself is

801
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 2: going to just be top notch to begin with. So

802
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: then what you're using the material to judge it? Bi, well,

803
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: how do you compare that material to other material? It

804
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 2: is fully subjective, and that drives some people nuts.

805
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think with any award like that,

806
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 4: the voter, whether it's a board member of the Pulitzer

807
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 4: or an Academy member, is voting on something that speaks

808
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 4: to them the most, I guess.

809
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: Right, And like you said, I mean it is if

810
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: you look at some of the material, a lot of

811
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,959
Speaker 2: the material, it is very liberal in it's bent, and

812
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: it shines a light on the kind of the kind

813
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: of issues that liberals would be interested and upset about.

814
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: And that seems to be generally what the Pulitzer committees

815
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 2: tend to the juries tend to percolate towards the top.

816
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's clubbe university, it's academia. They have

817
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 4: that bent anyway, generally that I mean that joke I

818
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 4: made about Alex Jones earlier.

819
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 3: I want to be clear.

820
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 4: They're not giving him and they're not denying him the

821
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 4: award because he's a conservative. You know, they're denying him

822
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 4: the award because he's a lying liar, right, you know

823
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 4: there's a difference for sure.

824
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: I'm not even sure he qualifies as conservative at this point.

825
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, who knows?

826
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: You got anything else on Pulitzer prizes? No?

827
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 3: I mean, should we put in for podcast or not?

828
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't. I don't know, man.

829
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 4: I mean I feel like in order for us to

830
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 4: put in, we would have to do a special, like

831
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 4: four part series on something. It couldn't just be for well,

832
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 4: it certainly couldn't be for all excellence.

833
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 2: No, definitely, for a lot of reason. Definitely not. But yeah,

834
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: we could do We'll do a four part series on

835
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: jelly beans.

836
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, or maybe we should just submit to the episode

837
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 3: for the word like.

838
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great idea. Okay, Okay, we're gonna do that.

839
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: In the meantime, if you want to know more about

840
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: the politzerprise, go Rey Jack Shaffer's takedown. It's a good

841
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: place to start because he also gives a lot of

842
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: background too. And since I said background, it's time for

843
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: listener mail.

844
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 4: This one is from a teacher. We love these, Hey guys,

845
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 4: I'm a chemistry professor at the College of Worcester in Ohio.

846
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 4: And he says Wester not Wooster.

847
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 3: But that's another story.

848
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 4: One of the joys in my work is chatting with

849
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 4: college students in the lab while we wait for experiments

850
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 4: to complete, talking about life, current events, random facts. There

851
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 4: have been some uncanny similarities between our conversations and your

852
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 4: recent are you guys listening in Luckily most of my

853
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 4: recent experience. In my most recent experience, you realized the

854
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 4: podcast before the conversation. I was never taught much African history,

855
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 4: and thanks to you walked away from your Highly Selassie

856
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 4: podcast feeling well in formed. I shared what I learned

857
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 4: with one of my students from Ethiopia, and during the

858
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 4: conversation they shared an interesting fact of their own. Apparently

859
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 4: there is a bump engineered on purpose in the road

860
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 4: at the spot where highly Selassie's former residence is. So

861
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 4: when motorists pass by, they hit the bump and their

862
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 4: head bobs, and it is so every head will bow

863
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 4: when they.

864
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 3: Drive by his house.

865
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: Pretty amazing.

866
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 4: And I try to find this out and verified it.

867
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 4: I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking because

868
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 4: you know, fact checking listener mail is something I want

869
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 4: to put a lot of time into. But hey, if

870
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 4: this is true, that's pretty pretty awesome.

871
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even if it's not true, I'm going to

872
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: go do the same thing in front of my house.

873
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

874
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: Bags of cementas Yeah, I expense them too.

875
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 3: Awesome. That is from Paul Bonbalay.

876
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Paul, that's a great email. Thank you

877
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 2: very much, and yes, we are watching you in your class.

878
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 2: Keep up the good work. If you want to be

879
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 2: like Paul and get in touch with us, we love

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Speaker 2: hearing additional facts that may be so amazing that they

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Speaker 2: possibly aren't true, but are still a good idea. If

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Speaker 2: you want to do that, you can send it in

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Speaker 2: an email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.