Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three oh seven,
Speaker 1: Episode two of Danny's gay.
Speaker 2: Production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: This is a podcast where we take a deep dive
Speaker 1: into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, October third,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Yeah, National Techies Day. Kind of a kind kind of appropriate,
Speaker 3: yeah for our guest. Today's also yeah, National Fruit at
Speaker 3: Work Day. I don't know what I think. It's a
Speaker 3: picture of an apple and a laptop, so hey, fight
Speaker 3: into your favorite fruit while you're at work. Uh, and
Speaker 3: you know, holler at your techies today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a behavior, bringing fruit to work, a behavior
Speaker 1: that needed to be honored and defended with a national day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's been maybe a decade since I
Speaker 1: heard somebody use the phrase techie. Yeah, so outdated, like
Speaker 1: a like nineteen eighties, like that there would be a
Speaker 1: movie about like tech people that turn into zombies or something.
Speaker 1: Crist right, Yeah, yeah, very Anyways, my name is Jack
Speaker 1: O'Brien aka Potatoes O'Brien, and I'm thrilled to be joined
Speaker 1: as always.
Speaker 2: By my co host, mister Miles Gray. You know it's
Speaker 2: Miles Brad.
Speaker 3: I'd love to do a long AKA, but we got
Speaker 3: a lot to talk about, so I'll keep it short.
Speaker 3: It's your favorite black and Theese experimental visual artist Yo
Speaker 3: Boy Kusama. Thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1: You're welcome, Welcome, Welcome back, Miles, Miles.
Speaker 4: We are thrilled to be joined in our third seats
Speaker 4: by an author, a documentarian who MIT called one of
Speaker 4: the world's ten most influential intellectuals.
Speaker 1: He's published many twenty books, including the one we're going
Speaker 1: to be talking about about today, Survival of the Richest
Speaker 1: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires. Please, Welcome to the show,
Speaker 1: Doctor Douglas rush Cobra.
Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome, Thanks for having me, Thanks so much for
Speaker 3: joining us. Yeah, like we were saying before, we're we
Speaker 3: talk like we always like to have experts on on
Speaker 3: certain things. And one thing we always keep hearing about
Speaker 3: is like the scaries that billionaires get when they think
Speaker 3: about the poor people rising up. And we've like we've
Speaker 3: touched on like people buying properties in New Zealand and
Speaker 3: like these like billionaire escape bunkers and things like that,
Speaker 3: and so when we were wanting to sort of discuss
Speaker 3: this further, it was like it was just great to
Speaker 3: like sort of see your work sort of completely overlap
Speaker 3: with that, but also have like a larger look at
Speaker 3: like it's really not so much about the bunkers themselves,
Speaker 3: but the flawed thinking around even wanting a fucking bunker
Speaker 3: to escape it all. So, yeah, we're really stoked to have.
Speaker 2: You on that. Cool no, and thanks for that too,
Speaker 2: because some you know, I write this book and there's
Speaker 2: this opening scene right where I meet the billionaires who
Speaker 2: all want advice on their bunkers, and most of the
Speaker 2: journalists and newspapers and stuff who've covered it, they're like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, the billionaires are going to leave us behind.
Speaker 2: This is happening, and it's like, dude, read the book.
Speaker 2: These guys are pathetic. None of this is working. The
Speaker 2: whole point of that scene it's a comedy. It's a comedy.
Speaker 2: This is laughable. These guys are nuts, right yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it kind of leaves that behind pretty quickly, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then focuses on, you know, like tells the story
Speaker 1: of how we got here, why we are here. If
Speaker 1: you needed any evidence, any more evidence that we are here,
Speaker 1: there is a sixty minutes piece I think last this
Speaker 1: past week where they were talking about Sam Bankment Freed,
Speaker 1: and like Michael Lewis was like, man, he's a great guy.
Speaker 1: Like the world needs a Sam Bankment Freed to like
Speaker 1: save us from ourselves type shit.
Speaker 2: Oh no, he was saying that, I know he's got
Speaker 2: a new book, Michael Lewis. You know he's like Moneyball
Speaker 2: great right or yeah, the Big Short and he's he's
Speaker 2: got a book coming out like next week or the
Speaker 2: week after about Sam Bankman Freed, And people don't know
Speaker 2: that's the crypto crazy he you know, giant crypto crash.
Speaker 2: He took zillions and billions of dollars of people's money
Speaker 2: with him on this basically, I mean maybe he meant well,
Speaker 2: but it was a crypto pyramid scheme that he was running.
Speaker 2: And but the weirder thing is like he's an effective altruist.
Speaker 2: He's he's basically one of these people who believes that
Speaker 2: the human beings alive today, like the eight billion people
Speaker 2: around we're just like the Larval stage of humanity. We're
Speaker 2: like the maggots on the original medium, and the ones
Speaker 2: that matter are the posthuman ais that are going to
Speaker 2: spread throughout the universe. So if you have to make
Speaker 2: choices now that cause pain and suffering for these little
Speaker 2: eight billion worms. It's okay because the super ais are
Speaker 2: going to be are going to be happier and.
Speaker 1: We will we will be come how many people there
Speaker 1: are going to be before like after that? The direct
Speaker 1: quote from michae lewis there is still a Sam bankmin
Speaker 1: Freed shaped hole in the world that now needs filling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd say maybe not so, but but yeah there is.
Speaker 1: I mean, you talk in your book about when Jeff
Speaker 1: Bezos went to space and like this big media kind
Speaker 1: of orgasm that they had about just this idea of
Speaker 1: like a private person. We're now at a place where
Speaker 1: a private person can get so rich that they can
Speaker 1: go to space. It's like the the ultimate deliverance of
Speaker 1: the American dream, like on a cartoonish scale. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like people, really it does seem to be of
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist to like buy into this shit still, like
Speaker 1: we're starting to see some of the magic wearoff thanks
Speaker 1: to Elon Musk being a public dipshit, but it's it's
Speaker 1: still a mess. So we're going to dig into all
Speaker 1: of all of that stuff plenty more before we get
Speaker 1: into the content of your book. We do like to
Speaker 1: ask our guests if there's something from your search history
Speaker 1: you would be so kind to share with us that's
Speaker 1: revealing about who you are or what you're up to.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how revealing it is, but I
Speaker 2: look to see what it was, so I would be honest, right,
Speaker 2: And what's the last search history? Right? It's not unfortunate.
Speaker 2: It's not some cool porn thing. It was. It was
Speaker 2: what and that wouldn't be on Google anyway, but it was, Uh,
Speaker 2: which COVID vaccine has less side effects that MODERNA or Pfiser?
Speaker 2: Because I had to go in for one today and
Speaker 2: they said that it seems that Pfiser's got less side effects.
Speaker 2: And I guess that's revealing about me, because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm so torn as so I'm not even a COVID
Speaker 2: scept skeptic anymore. I'm just a COVID confused nick. Right,
Speaker 2: where did it come from? Is it bad? Is it
Speaker 2: less bad than they're saying? Is it more bad than
Speaker 2: they're saying? So I figured I would I would kind
Speaker 2: of split the difference by finding whatever whatever vaccine, I'll
Speaker 2: take it. But I wanted to be the least the.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of the vaccine, which COVID vaccine the best that
Speaker 1: would be how I would search. I get very dumb
Speaker 1: when I'm talking to Google, Like I feel like I
Speaker 1: have to talk to Google like I have frontal lobe damage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well the vaccine probably too. Like when I saw
Speaker 3: the thing about like Maderna being like slightly more like effective,
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, yeah that's me, that's me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, got that one. Yeah, has less side.
Speaker 1: Effects including working. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't work. That's what
Speaker 1: we identify with here at this show.
Speaker 2: But madern is like, you know, ten times the dose
Speaker 2: of Pfizer. So it's like it's more strong, but it's
Speaker 2: like we'll be able to I'll take the less strong.
Speaker 2: It's like I'm gonna have the Costa Ricum blend rather
Speaker 2: than the French dark French.
Speaker 3: Roast, French roast, right, sure, sure, sure, I'm not going
Speaker 3: to get the Vietnamese iced coffee version of it.
Speaker 1: Still haven't had it, but still circling. What is something
Speaker 1: that you think is overrated?
Speaker 2: Hey, I AI is really I mean, honestly, so far AI,
Speaker 2: the chat ept and all that. It's like a It's
Speaker 2: like a skin on a Google search box. It's like
Speaker 2: instead of getting the Google searches, it pulls like the
Speaker 2: best paragraphs from the things that would have been in
Speaker 2: the search and throws them together into something that sounds
Speaker 2: kind of like Wikipedia, but it's actually like wrong. You know,
Speaker 2: if you.
Speaker 5: Type India without the fact checking, yeah, you type in
Speaker 5: you know what weighs more a pound of lead or
Speaker 5: five pounds of feathers, it'll say they weigh the same, right,
Speaker 5: because it's finding the text and most of the times
Speaker 5: people have talked about feathers, weighing feathers and weighing lead,
Speaker 5: the answer has been they're the same.
Speaker 2: And it just shows this whole it's this whole reversion
Speaker 2: to the mean. It's like, let's get the most average
Speaker 2: possible answer out of out of the data, and that's
Speaker 2: really good for society looking for innovation and new ideas,
Speaker 2: Like let's just revert to the mean, right, But the
Speaker 2: means sucks if you want to go there. And then
Speaker 2: like the other one is, uh, you know, mid journey
Speaker 2: people are showing me, oh, look at this beautiful thing
Speaker 2: I made on mid Journey, and I'm like, it's kind
Speaker 2: of like listening to somebody's acid trip. It's like, I
Speaker 2: know it was really good for you, But to me,
Speaker 2: it just looks like some airbrush thing on the side
Speaker 2: of a van. Right. It's like, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 3: Sure it's like Tom Hanks his face on a bus.
Speaker 3: You're like, yeah, but it's uncle bus.
Speaker 2: Whoa. You're like, okay, okay, right, So the problem. I'm
Speaker 2: sure it was really fun for you to interact with
Speaker 2: that AI and get that stuff, but the result the
Speaker 2: kind of keep it to yourself. Man, I just don't.
Speaker 2: I don't really care. So yeah, A, I just feels
Speaker 2: like I don't. Also, I get the interviewed so much
Speaker 2: about it lately, like oh, is it gonna cost our jobs?
Speaker 2: Is gonna cost our consciousness and the future of you?
Speaker 2: I'm just like, oh, just shut up. I'm just tired
Speaker 2: of it as a thing.
Speaker 3: It's funny because we were on that same journey too,
Speaker 3: Like the last couple of weeks we've had specialists on
Speaker 3: in AI and we're like, I saw it, Skynet, It's
Speaker 3: terminator or what like no, no, oh, okay, great, They're like,
Speaker 3: at best it can do you know, it'll it'll it'll
Speaker 3: crush it trivia night if you have it on you
Speaker 3: right on.
Speaker 1: Some like and then every seventh question, it will just
Speaker 1: get completely wrong. Oh and in a way that makes
Speaker 1: you wonder, like makes everybody be like, is he Okayah?
Speaker 2: If it's going to replace jobs, it's gonna replace ship jobs,
Speaker 2: you know. And if it's not a ship job it's replacing, well,
Speaker 2: then it's going to do a ship job on a
Speaker 2: job that needs someone good. It's like you don't want
Speaker 2: to watch the AI movie or go to the AI doctor.
Speaker 2: It's like, no, thank you, I'll do that. But but
Speaker 2: going back to the tech bros, they're the ones who
Speaker 2: bought in the most to it. It's it's a tech bro.
Speaker 2: I was at one of those one of those you know,
Speaker 2: tech bro retreats and a guy, one of the guys
Speaker 2: who came up with one of the social apps that
Speaker 2: I'm sure everyone is used once or twice on their phone.
Speaker 2: Your kids used it more. But one of the guys
Speaker 2: who came up with one of those apps was asking
Speaker 2: me if I'm afraid because he's he's been looking at
Speaker 2: what I've been publishing about AI, and am I afraid
Speaker 2: that when the Ais are in charge, they're gonna, you know,
Speaker 2: come after me for saying negative things about them? And
Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, all right and he and he said
Speaker 2: he doesn't publish anything at all about AI online so
Speaker 2: that in the future the AIS won't attack him. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, God, if you think the AIS are so smart,
Speaker 2: aren't they going to be able to infer from your
Speaker 2: selective removal of all reference? Aren't they gonna be for
Speaker 2: how you think?
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh fuck, you know no, they're smart
Speaker 1: enough to hack the entire like World Bank and you know,
Speaker 1: the Pentagon, but they're not smart enough to infer subtext.
Speaker 2: That's beyond them, right, and that with the tech pros
Speaker 2: are the AIS? I mean that's right either.
Speaker 1: It is well, like the I was reading that Atlantic
Speaker 1: article on Sam Altman and his you know, the fact
Speaker 1: that the guy who's the CEO of open AI, and
Speaker 1: he's like, put, you know, he has his bunker and
Speaker 1: like all his guns and a Cinai capsule that he
Speaker 1: told the New Yorker like he's ready to go at
Speaker 1: a moment's notice, and like seems like such bullshit.
Speaker 2: Truly feels like.
Speaker 1: The like they are using this to generate hype because
Speaker 1: all publicity is good publicity, because the whole thing is
Speaker 1: just monetized by stock market hype.
Speaker 2: But in the same article.
Speaker 1: Where he's like, they're gonna come for all of us,
Speaker 1: and in that moment, I don't even want to be
Speaker 1: around to see what they do to my family.
Speaker 2: Sinai capsules.
Speaker 1: In that same article, he's like his one of his
Speaker 1: lead technologists is like, I don't think we're even close
Speaker 1: to getting the level of accuracy on Wikipedia, like Wikipedia
Speaker 1: is known for, and they're like, I don't know that
Speaker 1: we ever will get to the level of Wikipedia. And
Speaker 1: a few years ago, Wikipedia was known as like a
Speaker 1: thing that you can easily hack and like change the
Speaker 1: data to say whatever the fuck you want, like that
Speaker 1: that is not a realistic, like you know, way to
Speaker 1: fact check anything, or it was like shorthand for like
Speaker 1: the lazy way to fact check something. And now it's
Speaker 1: like they're like holding it up as as an unattainable goldstone.
Speaker 6: It's yeah, well, yeah, it's because the AI is. It's
Speaker 6: not AI is not about figuring things out. AI is
Speaker 6: is this sort of weird imitation of language. It's more
Speaker 6: looking at, you know, how do you what would be
Speaker 6: the most probable next letter, what would be the most
Speaker 6: probable next word? And it's it's a weird language game.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't. That's the thing it does. It's not
Speaker 2: thinking about anything. The only thing that's weird about AI
Speaker 2: is how it might be employed, you know, in the
Speaker 2: service of whatever capitalism or manipulation or something else.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's it's clear to see those
Speaker 3: dangers like immedia. I'm like, oh yeah, every like business
Speaker 3: owner would probably try and be like, all right, how
Speaker 3: I get rid of workers by using this? But again,
Speaker 3: that seems to be like the most direct sort of
Speaker 3: feasible threat that I can see at the moment.
Speaker 2: But yeah, right, And the only problem with getting rid
Speaker 2: of workers is if you don't feed the workers. After that.
Speaker 2: It's like, I was doing this thing on CNN and
Speaker 2: they were like about AI, and there I was. I
Speaker 2: was kind of poopooing the threat of AI, and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: what about the unemployment problem? And I look. It was
Speaker 2: like Jake Tapper or somebody, and I look at him
Speaker 2: and I go, but what about the unemployment solution? It's like,
Speaker 2: since what is I don't really need to be a
Speaker 2: I don't have employment as a goal, right, Yeah. I
Speaker 2: want stuff I want meaning I want to maybe work
Speaker 2: on things, but employment let's look at let's you know,
Speaker 2: let's look at some of our underlying assumptions here. So
Speaker 2: it'd be great. I mean, the thing is that the
Speaker 2: discussion that AI could create is so much more interesting
Speaker 2: than the world it would create, because it's not going
Speaker 2: to replace the job. It just it isn't. Sadly, that's
Speaker 2: not at least not how we how we would use it,
Speaker 2: you know, and we'll just create a new kind of work,
Speaker 2: which is like consumption, like going to the mall or
Speaker 2: whatever it is we're supposed to do to keep those
Speaker 2: things alive.
Speaker 1: Right, I could see a world where they like over
Speaker 1: rely on it, like we're already seeing it in Like
Speaker 1: I keep talking about this one headline I saw in
Speaker 1: the margins of a news article that was and I
Speaker 1: used to write like headlines for a website that I
Speaker 1: ran called Cracked, And I would like I paid attention
Speaker 1: to headline writing. So I'm like, I have like a
Speaker 1: loose like I noticed when headlines are well written, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I noticed when they are great.
Speaker 2: I was a headline editor on my college paper too.
Speaker 2: I just loved it. I mean, it's a great thing
Speaker 2: to conceive it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I you know, I've noticed an overall
Speaker 1: drop in quality of like the headline t's of late
Speaker 1: like just a backwards slide. But recently I saw one
Speaker 1: there was a picture of Vince Vaughn and it said
Speaker 1: it's no big secret why Van Vaant doesn't work in
Speaker 1: Hollywood anymore, and it was just like, yeah, they have
Speaker 1: Like I feel like they're already turning it over to AI.
Speaker 1: The AI is doing a shitty job, but like they
Speaker 1: don't care because they get to say they're using AI
Speaker 1: and that powers their stock price. And I like, in
Speaker 1: the same way that like the before we had a
Speaker 1: actual actually functioning internet, we had like the dot com
Speaker 1: bubble burst, I feel like we might see an AI
Speaker 1: thing where they try to replace all the jobs with
Speaker 1: AI and it does an incredibly shitty job, and then
Speaker 1: they somehow use that catastrophe to then you know, hire
Speaker 1: fewer people back.
Speaker 2: But yeah, well that's always the name of the game.
Speaker 2: It is finding an excuse to devalue to it's kind
Speaker 2: of disconnect workers from their labor, or to hide the workers.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: AI is great at making things look like they're appearing automatically,
Speaker 2: you know, like from a replicator. But there's tons of
Speaker 2: people that tagged all the data for the AI. There's
Speaker 2: tons of children who went into caves to get the
Speaker 2: rare earth metals to make the processors to have the AI.
Speaker 2: There's the cobalt that they're getting from the rivers. It's
Speaker 2: like the amount of human labor and suffering that goes
Speaker 2: into the a chat JPT three response is immense. It's
Speaker 2: just it's just camouflage. It's just further more layers away.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, the dumb waiter. It's like, no, no,
Speaker 2: the slaves were still there making the food and huffing
Speaker 2: and puffing the stuff. We don't want to see that.
Speaker 2: We do always see that, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I mean Thomas Jefferson, what a kind man.
Speaker 3: He's like, I'm going to spare everyone, you know, the
Speaker 3: tragedy of having to look at the fact that I
Speaker 3: rely on chattel slavery.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but how is that?
Speaker 3: How's your dinner?
Speaker 2: How's your magic? Okay? All right?
Speaker 1: They were serving Kraft mac and cheese, said his dinners. Sure,
Speaker 1: what what is something you think is underrated?
Speaker 2: Right now? At least I'm trying to think this way.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I really believe it, but I'll
Speaker 2: say it like I do. I think that the human
Speaker 2: capacity for change is underrated.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: What I'm starting to think is like I've been looking
Speaker 2: at all the kind of techno solutionists climate change and
Speaker 2: policies and this and that, and I'm like, oh, fuck man,
Speaker 2: none of these look like they're so reasonable to me,
Speaker 2: Like we're gonna throw sulfur dioxide in the space, or
Speaker 2: you know, iron filings in the ocean, or get special
Speaker 2: plankton regenerators and and but but I'm starting to think that.
Speaker 2: I mean, in my own experience, I've had sometimes sudden
Speaker 2: rapid transformation where I see the whole thing, everything without
Speaker 2: acid or anything. I just like, whoa, it all looks
Speaker 2: different to me now, and I start moving through the
Speaker 2: world differently, and I feel like our best, our last
Speaker 2: best chance for sustainable survival is some kind of almost
Speaker 2: like a global human mind shift that people would just
Speaker 2: go whoa, what were we tripping on here? And change
Speaker 2: the way they live. It's like, oh, I want to
Speaker 2: make friends with my neighbors. I don't need to consume
Speaker 2: all this shit. I'm not driving to work. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: work right here. That that that that that kind of
Speaker 2: flip would would change everything. So and I do. I
Speaker 2: think especially when you look at the tech bros. You
Speaker 2: think that, you know, human beings are the problem and
Speaker 2: technology is the solution, and they're going to create a
Speaker 2: new stack or a new this, or re educate us
Speaker 2: and all that. It's like, no, we are not the problem.
Speaker 2: We are the We are the solution. You know, these
Speaker 2: these systems are the problem. And I'm just trying to
Speaker 2: kind of help people see that we are underestimating our
Speaker 2: own capacity as humans to behave our way into a
Speaker 2: different reality.
Speaker 3: M Yeah, because I mean I think like the pandemic
Speaker 3: felt like the closest I've seen to people having that moment,
Speaker 3: like we talk about that on the show, where like
Speaker 3: once the toil of it all slows down for a second,
Speaker 3: people were able to be.
Speaker 2: Like, wait, what the fuck are what the fuck is this?
Speaker 3: Like this is fucked up? And then suddenly it's like
Speaker 3: I get back to fucking work. I fucking think about
Speaker 3: what the what what the exit strategy could be from
Speaker 3: this version of like working for the economy rather than
Speaker 3: the economy working for people. But yeah, like I I
Speaker 3: hope to see something like that. I mean, I feel like,
Speaker 3: you know, as like organized labor becomes more and more,
Speaker 3: you know, as is more ascendant, that people are like
Speaker 3: in their own way incrementally beginning to sort of shed
Speaker 3: at least at the very least what they believe is
Speaker 3: owed to them, right, And yeah, that may be opening
Speaker 3: like a much more much larger door for some from
Speaker 3: for bigger changes, for sure, I hope.
Speaker 2: So anyway, I'm just so tired of like fighting against
Speaker 2: those system and the man and fighting against the corporation
Speaker 2: and all. And it's like, you know, fuck them all.
Speaker 2: If if if we borrow stuff from our neighbors, that's
Speaker 2: the best protest against Walmart and home Depot and everybody else.
Speaker 2: You know, you have one lawnmower on the block, You
Speaker 2: borrow a drill from Bob instead of buying another renewable,
Speaker 2: rechargeable you know, piece of craft that you're going to
Speaker 2: put in the garage. You know, it's it's it's like
Speaker 2: pretty easy. And I know this is how you know,
Speaker 2: middle and upper middle class people can respond. But you know,
Speaker 2: those middle and upper middle class people are kind of
Speaker 2: the ones responsible for whatever happens. You know, it's it's
Speaker 2: you're not going to be asking you know, the the
Speaker 2: oh the ten million, you know Pakistanis who are up
Speaker 2: to their waist and climate change water. It's like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: you guys have to change something, you know, say no,
Speaker 2: they just got to try to water you guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, all right, let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and we'll come come back and kind of dig in
Speaker 1: a little bit more to the new book.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back. And we're back. And as we
Speaker 2: were talking about, so so the book's such a different
Speaker 2: we have. We are in a different time space, time continuum.
Speaker 2: And the listeners, because you know, for us that break
Speaker 2: was like three seconds long. Then we're in a different
Speaker 2: time continuum. They've got to catch up ourselves, all right.
Speaker 2: We tell that.
Speaker 1: We tell them that to you know, feel final, to
Speaker 1: identify with us. We tell them that we keep it
Speaker 1: real time. We are sit there and.
Speaker 2: All right, so say come back, all right, you can
Speaker 2: start joking.
Speaker 1: So, so your book opens, You've been asked to come
Speaker 1: out and speak to a bunch of super wealthy people.
Speaker 1: And it's not really like a conference or is it
Speaker 1: a conference. It's like just a gathering of the wealthy,
Speaker 1: you know, in.
Speaker 2: All honestly, I'll tell you what it really was. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're amongst friends, right, No one talk okay, nobody nobody, good,
Speaker 2: good good? All right? What's on satellite? So what could
Speaker 2: they do? Musk is secretly listening. It's probably somehow related
Speaker 2: to starlink or something. But no, but this was aessed
Speaker 2: with me. I thought I was doing a talk, right,
Speaker 2: that they were inviting me, and I get invited to
Speaker 2: kind of do this kind of intellectual dominatrix act. Basically,
Speaker 2: you know, they bring out right this leftist, a narco syndicalist,
Speaker 2: cyberpunk asshole, you know, to speak to bankers and tech
Speaker 2: bros and say, you guys are fucked up, You're doing
Speaker 2: the wrong thing. Stop stop externalizing your harm, you know,
Speaker 2: and they, oh, thank you, sir, May I please have another?
Speaker 2: You know, And they do that for a little while
Speaker 2: and then they just, you know, oh, we had rush
Speaker 2: cof because you know, we're cool and we can take it.
Speaker 2: And then they go back to doing whatever they were
Speaker 2: doing before anyway, you know, and maybe take some of
Speaker 2: my language and throw it on onto the brestle. So
Speaker 2: it looks like that. So I thought it was one
Speaker 2: of those, but then it turned out to be this thing,
Speaker 2: and I didn't I didn't realize it until after. I mean,
Speaker 2: I thought I was I was getting ready to go
Speaker 2: on stage. I thought I was in a green room
Speaker 2: and they were gonna come in with a little they
Speaker 2: bring a little clip on mike and they put you out.
Speaker 2: But instead they brought in these five guys who sat
Speaker 2: around this table to talk to me. Now, the people
Speaker 2: think as I told the story that oh, the whole
Speaker 2: thing was for this five guys. No, the whole thing
Speaker 2: wasn't for this five guys. The whole thing was some
Speaker 2: really wealthy people technology hedge fund thing run by one
Speaker 2: of those big places that does these things, and they
Speaker 2: invited out like fifty or one hundred of their best
Speaker 2: multimillionaire billionaire clients and family fund people to like a
Speaker 2: weekend at a resort with a bunch of like I
Speaker 2: was like the only one like me. There was like
Speaker 2: a celebrity chef. There was a PGA golf pro. There
Speaker 2: was a guy who did tennis swings. There was like
Speaker 2: a like one of those painter guys, like the guy
Speaker 2: with the curly hair who died. One of those kind
Speaker 2: of guys was there. Yeah, and right there was like
Speaker 2: a tontric massage person, so The idea was they got
Speaker 2: they got a menu of right, and then it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know Wednesday from twelve, you know to one, you
Speaker 2: could learn to make an omelet with the famous chef,
Speaker 2: learn to pluck a guitar with you know, Kenny Loggins
Speaker 2: or whatever, or you know, do that, or you know,
Speaker 2: spend an hour with you know mits, you know, top
Speaker 2: ten futurists through Nuggus Rush Cooff. And so five of
Speaker 2: those dudes decided, oh we'll do rush cough right. So
Speaker 2: that was sort of what the premise of They came
Speaker 2: in and I thought, I'm doing a talk and they
Speaker 2: just want to sit around and ask me questions. So
Speaker 2: it started out like innocently like bitcoiner ethereum, where should
Speaker 2: we bet on? Or augmented reality or virtual reality you know,
Speaker 2: or or you know, whole language models or real language model,
Speaker 2: you know, all these kind of binary questions of which
Speaker 2: I'm the person you don't ask that. Actually I'm always
Speaker 2: right about the shape of the thing, but always wrong
Speaker 2: with the brand like this. Before your time, I was
Speaker 2: like Beta max right, not VHF. You know, I'm like
Speaker 2: copy of serves better than AOL. It's gonna sick, but
Speaker 2: you knew that like home video was going to revolution, right,
Speaker 2: you just didn't know.
Speaker 1: You thought it was gonna be Beta Max, which a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize, Like in retrospect, Beta max
Speaker 1: is like we when I worked at ABC News, we
Speaker 1: worked with Beta Max because it is a better product.
Speaker 1: It doesn't degrade, it's much easier to work with, and
Speaker 1: rewind and like move around with and better.
Speaker 2: It's just bigger, it's better. And also it goes over
Speaker 2: the tape head faster, so there's more tape per frame.
Speaker 2: You know, there's more data in it because but there
Speaker 2: were two problems with Beta Max. One they didn't give
Speaker 2: their stuff to the porn industry, which VHS did. And
Speaker 2: two the VHS, I'm super slow. You could do like
Speaker 2: a six hour tape and get a whole you know,
Speaker 2: you can get two NFL games, you know, if you're
Speaker 2: gone for the day, you can get the whole thing.
Speaker 2: And so you know, shitty quality tended to win. Like
Speaker 2: AOL look at them, yay AOL Right that they'd worked
Speaker 2: for a while. So anyway, they asked me all those
Speaker 2: and then finally, you know, I'm answering those as best
Speaker 2: I can, and then they get to like Alaska or
Speaker 2: New Zealand, you know where should I put my bunker?
Speaker 2: And I decided I put on my I don't know
Speaker 2: what court Jester tweak the rich, which is what I
Speaker 2: do my Dominatrix hat. So I'm like, okay, so you
Speaker 2: got your bunker. And the one of them was showing
Speaker 2: me the plans for his bunker and it's like, it's
Speaker 2: got this heated swimming pool. I'm like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a guy up the hill from me who's got
Speaker 2: a heated swimming pool and there's always a truck in
Speaker 2: front of his house with like a new filter, new
Speaker 2: heating element. How are you gonna get like parts for
Speaker 2: that heated pool after the apocalypse? He like opens just
Speaker 2: little moleskin book parts for heated pool. It's all right.
Speaker 1: These guys are.
Speaker 2: Really like any other Brainbusters Rush Coff exactly. So then
Speaker 2: I was asking them about how to you know, didn't
Speaker 2: you guys see the Twilight episode, Twilight Zone episode where
Speaker 2: that people have the bunker and everyone's banging on it.
Speaker 2: How are you gonna protect your bunker from the likes
Speaker 2: of us who don't have a bunker. And that's when
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, well, you know, we got navy seals
Speaker 2: on call mine or you know, standing by a juiced
Speaker 2: up helicopter that's say idling and ready to you know,
Speaker 2: go at any minute. Like okay, so you've got navy
Speaker 2: seals coming to your to your island. I didn't ask
Speaker 2: why you know it's not why isn't it Army Rangers?
Speaker 2: I mean sure, didn't you see the market Mark movie
Speaker 2: Army Rangers? Are like, yeah, that's on zero dark thirty. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was good. I want them.
Speaker 7: I want them protecting. Thank you for some of those guys.
Speaker 7: They are like they're going off on missions. I don't
Speaker 7: want mission people. I want protecting big protecting British men.
Speaker 7: But anyway, so, how how are you going to pay
Speaker 7: your navy seals? They're like, oh, what, we've got billions
Speaker 7: of dollars. No, after your money is worthless.
Speaker 2: After the electromagnetic pulse or the or the the you
Speaker 2: know whatever, the atomic war, the climate event, your moneys were,
Speaker 2: how are you going to pay them to And they're again,
Speaker 2: I didn't really think of that. And then they're like
Speaker 2: going into crazy stuff like well what if I'm the
Speaker 2: only person who knows the combination to the safe where
Speaker 2: we keep the food. Wow, Navy seals, they've have got
Speaker 2: no experience getting and getting information out. You're gonna get
Speaker 2: water boarded from here to the end of your life.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's your your apocalypse is not but or
Speaker 2: they were talking about having implants and everybody that could
Speaker 2: also be used as kind of electric shocks that people
Speaker 2: are doing wrong, things like Navy seals are gonna go. Really,
Speaker 2: they're gonna like that. So I was just amazed that
Speaker 2: these guys, right, they're smarter than us, Right, they own
Speaker 2: these big companies, they're billionaires, they're supposedly smarter, but they're
Speaker 2: so dumb. They're they're they're so panicked. And and that
Speaker 2: was really what maybe want to them go write a
Speaker 2: whole book or think about this longer, because it's basically,
Speaker 2: here are the richest, most powerful men I'd ever been with,
Speaker 2: yet they feel, you know, utterly powerless to influence the future.
Speaker 2: The best they can do is predict the inevitable event
Speaker 2: and then prepare for that, so they don't think of
Speaker 2: the future as this thing we co create. This future
Speaker 2: is this inevitability that you then build for. And that's
Speaker 2: and that and and the idea the hubris. To think
Speaker 2: that they can build a technology or a spaceship or
Speaker 2: a metaverse or a bunker and quite literally leave humanity
Speaker 2: behind was was crazy. But but what I realized, and
Speaker 2: this was the thing, this was the techy nightmare of it,
Speaker 2: was that it wasn't just as I always thought. It
Speaker 2: wasn't just capitalism. It wasn't just oh, look they came
Speaker 2: to my beautiful net Wired magazine announce an attention economy
Speaker 2: and then use the net to abuse people and make
Speaker 2: sticky websites and surveillance and all that. No, it's that
Speaker 2: these kind of there's a there's a tech pro psychology
Speaker 2: that kind of came from the beginning, which was about
Speaker 2: getting away from people. And I realized they weren't. You know,
Speaker 2: the climate change was not the reason why they were
Speaker 2: building their bunkers. Climate change was the excuse they're using
Speaker 2: to justify building these these you know, solo paradises. The
Speaker 2: excuses they have for going to live on Mars away
Speaker 2: from everybody else, or to build you know, robot sex
Speaker 2: slaves instead of real people. You know, they want that
Speaker 2: that that this is not the nightmare for them, This
Speaker 2: is the dream.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there does seem to be a fantasy about it,
Speaker 1: rather than like they love thinking about this. It's like
Speaker 1: a it's a I mean, I think everybody kind of
Speaker 1: does at this point. Just I think for a lot
Speaker 1: of people, the dream of the apocalypse is like I
Speaker 1: don't have to go to work, like, you know, like
Speaker 1: because you know, it's the thing that people have said
Speaker 1: that you know, it's easier to imagine the end of
Speaker 1: the world than the end of capitalism, and like, so,
Speaker 1: how do I get out of this system that dehumanizes me.
Speaker 1: Let's just go with the zombie apocalypse because I can't
Speaker 1: picture anything else. Yeah, but it for them, it's the
Speaker 1: same thing, but but in a different way. It allows
Speaker 1: them to have the ultimate kind of control, the ultimate
Speaker 1: blank slate where they can build their own society, which
Speaker 1: seems to be what they like. You describe it as
Speaker 1: the mindset that is sort of epidemic. And yeah, Silicon Valley,
Speaker 1: which is kind.
Speaker 2: Of like a colonial urge. I mean, it's a colonial
Speaker 2: urge where just like you know, even it was it
Speaker 2: was Hobbes that told the British East India Trading Company
Speaker 2: people when they were coming to the Americas that you
Speaker 2: don't have to treat the humans there as human. They're
Speaker 2: not human. They're kind of one with the land. They're
Speaker 2: more like animals or trees or shrubs or something. They're
Speaker 2: not good Christian humans. They're little brown people. So you
Speaker 2: can enslave them and kill them and what don't think
Speaker 2: of them. It's think of the New World as as
Speaker 2: as a clean slate as you're working like x nilo,
Speaker 2: as if from nothing, and that's the way the tech
Speaker 2: pros think of it. So, yeah, going to the dark
Speaker 2: side of the moon, going to Mars, going with somewhere
Speaker 2: like that, or seasteading, right, putting out all these little
Speaker 2: rafts into the ocean, and make your own nation. It's
Speaker 2: kind of like the little rascals when they'd make their
Speaker 2: little clubhouse, like no girls allowed. Right, I'm gonna make
Speaker 2: my own place with my own roles, and I can
Speaker 2: clone and I can affects with teenagers and know whatever
Speaker 2: I want because I make my own laws, you know,
Speaker 2: self sovereign. I'm a self sovereign individual in my own
Speaker 2: crypto currency and my NFT based society. It's like okay,
Speaker 2: you know, and that's the problem with you know, they
Speaker 2: got plucked out of college when they're freshmen right by VCS.
Speaker 2: They didn't take enough light, right know, they.
Speaker 1: Didn't even finish intro to philosophy exactly, Like, yeah, you
Speaker 1: started too soon.
Speaker 2: But yeah, like the guys in there's this place called Neome.
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard about that one in Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 2: It's this giant, multi billion dollar city they want to build.
Speaker 2: It's like a mile wide and one hundred miles long
Speaker 2: and some part of the desert that they think is
Speaker 2: going to be protected from climate change. For some weird reason,
Speaker 2: They've hired like Hollywood studio chiefs and architects and and
Speaker 2: and agricultural specialists to build this thing, this perfectly high tech,
Speaker 2: modern like Dubai like renewable city that's going to be
Speaker 2: totally sustainable and perfect. The problem was there were these
Speaker 2: twenty thousand Bedouins living back and forth on that land
Speaker 2: sustainably for the last what like five thousand years, Right,
Speaker 2: we just gotta get rid of those twenty thousand sustainable
Speaker 2: exactly how to survive the PLoP down our sustainable you know,
Speaker 2: software solution stack. So they got that there are these
Speaker 2: other ones.
Speaker 1: In sol pollutes the hell out of the earth and
Speaker 1: makes it a worse but like more likely the apocalypse
Speaker 1: more likely?
Speaker 2: Right, Well, they externalized the pollution, right, It's like it's
Speaker 2: all run with microprocessors and sensors and solar this and that.
Speaker 2: But where did you get the solar panels? Where did
Speaker 2: you get the rare earth metals for them? Where they
Speaker 2: never look at what happens before and what happens after.
Speaker 2: They stay right, you know, in their little in their
Speaker 2: little bubble. It's like three D Oh, the three D
Speaker 2: printers are going to save the economy. It's like, who's
Speaker 2: making the three D printers? Where are we getting the
Speaker 2: plastic goop that we stick in the three D printers?
Speaker 2: You know, remember when daisy wheel printers and printers came around,
Speaker 2: Then we got every time there's a new generation of printer,
Speaker 2: you'd see printers on the curves of the sidewalks of
Speaker 2: New York, right, get replaced. It's like, no, it doesn't,
Speaker 2: it doesn't quite work like that. But yeah, this this
Speaker 2: mindset is the idea that with really that you can
Speaker 2: earn enough money to escape the the to escape the
Speaker 2: damage that you're creating by earning money in that way,
Speaker 2: or that you can build enough technology to get away
Speaker 2: from the externalized harm created by building that technology, so
Speaker 2: you you have you know, even you look at it
Speaker 2: in the real world, like, uh, you've got all these
Speaker 2: apps that are leading like teenage girls to like cut
Speaker 2: themselves and hate themselves and vomit and be depressed and
Speaker 2: all that. It's like, Oh, don't worry, we have another
Speaker 2: app that's gonna solve the problem with that app. Here's
Speaker 2: a wellness app and a mindfulness app. And you know,
Speaker 2: it's like, good luck with that, right, You're just adding
Speaker 2: on more and more, more and more screen time into people.
Speaker 3: Because it's also too like one thing that you point out,
Speaker 3: it's just sort of this insatiable urge, like especially with
Speaker 3: the way our economy is set up, is to like
Speaker 3: just keep iterating no matter if it doesn't make sense
Speaker 3: or not. It's like like you say, like just go
Speaker 3: meta on something and keep going meta. So there's another
Speaker 3: thing to hype up to get more capital into the
Speaker 3: stock market, and it's always ignoring like this simple truth,
Speaker 3: which is like but what if you like, what if
Speaker 3: you actually reckoned with what what we're doing right now
Speaker 3: rather than like, well, the solution to pollution is this
Speaker 3: pollution credit that you can now get and we're selling
Speaker 3: it on this exchange, and you can also invest in
Speaker 3: this exchange I've created. And it's never about sort of
Speaker 3: like dialing it back. It's always just about how are
Speaker 3: we going to just keep adding and piling on to
Speaker 3: kind of you know, to feed this insatiable hunger, to
Speaker 3: keep just extracting and expanding.
Speaker 2: Right, that's partly because they understand time purely it as
Speaker 2: forward motion, as progress, as linear. And there's great things
Speaker 2: about linear time, you know, and great things about progress
Speaker 2: and understanding history and a future. But if you don't
Speaker 2: have any kind of circular sensibility, if you don't understand
Speaker 2: anything about, you know, how soil regenerates, how people learn,
Speaker 2: how societies go through cycles, if you have none of
Speaker 2: that available to you, then all you can do is
Speaker 2: like you put your blinders on and move and move forward, forward, forward. So, right,
Speaker 2: so you start with something like central currency, which we
Speaker 2: don't have to go into why why are where that
Speaker 2: that happened? But central currency is basically one kind of
Speaker 2: currency that we use, which is interest bearing. So because
Speaker 2: we use central currency as the one currency, our economy
Speaker 2: has to grow. Right, You've got to pay back the
Speaker 2: bankers every time money is issued, it's issued in interest
Speaker 2: to pay for the It's expensive, mind, So where do
Speaker 2: you get the more money? You need your economy to grow.
Speaker 2: And once you need your economy to grow, well, then
Speaker 2: you need it to grow faster tomorrow than it did
Speaker 2: today and faster the day after that. So all these dudes,
Speaker 2: everyone's looking for exponential growth, and you're right. You don't
Speaker 2: get that just by selling more pizzas. You could only
Speaker 2: sell there's only so many mouths. What you do is
Speaker 2: that rather than you know, you, rather than sell pizzas,
Speaker 2: you buy stock in the pizza company. All right, Now,
Speaker 2: I got stock, and I just put in some money,
Speaker 2: and that's gonna grow as long as the pizza rea grows.
Speaker 2: It's fine. If the stock doesn't grow fast enough, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna buy a derivative of that stock, which is like
Speaker 2: I could buy the pizza stock three months in the future.
Speaker 2: So now I've compressed all that time, and yay, now
Speaker 2: that's not enough. I can get a derivative of the derivative,
Speaker 2: and so on and so on. You just keep going
Speaker 2: meta on the thing before. That's that's basically that's what
Speaker 2: financialization is. But financialization now is way bigger than reality. Right,
Speaker 2: the derivatives exchange of the New York Stock Exchange. They
Speaker 2: had the New York Stock Exchange, and they had a
Speaker 2: derivatives exchange. Derivatives Exchange got so big it actually purchased
Speaker 2: the New York Stock Exchange. Right, So it's like the
Speaker 2: tail eight the dog. It didn't wag it, it consumed it, right,
Speaker 2: and it's going to and why where does that leave reality?
Speaker 2: That's how you get you know, mortgage crises and all
Speaker 2: this other stuff. So you got that going on in finance,
Speaker 2: and then the same thing going on in technology, where
Speaker 2: you've got you know, businesses, and then businesses get aggregated
Speaker 2: by this website, and then that website aggregates the aggregators
Speaker 2: and so on and so on. You get Mark Zuckerberg
Speaker 2: going from Web one to Web two. Right. Web one
Speaker 2: was websites, Web two is Facebook. He plays out Facebook.
Speaker 2: Where does he go after that? Web three?
Speaker 1: You know, literally the name of his company do meta Meta.
Speaker 2: Literally meta saying we can just keep going meta on
Speaker 2: whatever was before. But Meta isn't isn't real. Meta is
Speaker 2: getting further and further away from from terra firma, from
Speaker 2: from the real world, and further and further away from
Speaker 2: the externalities, meaning the harms that are created by these businesses.
Speaker 2: You go to Facebook, the campus is gorgeous, and they
Speaker 2: got a great coffee there. It's like not Pietez, it's
Speaker 2: another one. It's like really good. But if you look
Speaker 2: on the edge of campus, there's a tent fill there
Speaker 2: of the people who've been improplished by the very same companies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take one more break and we'll
Speaker 1: come back and kind of keep keep digging in here.
Speaker 1: And we're back, and just to kind of summarize what
Speaker 1: we were talking about before, like this, because I did
Speaker 1: find the book ultimately hopeful, because like it really clarified
Speaker 1: this idea that I think we all assume that there's
Speaker 1: something happening with resources and the earth that is inevitably
Speaker 1: leading toward a climate apocalypse. And you talk about how
Speaker 1: that assumption is purely based on like their mindset of
Speaker 1: like this extractive kind of their addiction to tenx growth
Speaker 1: is really what's driving the inevitable move towards a unsustainable
Speaker 1: world and climate. And like if you if people are able,
Speaker 1: if like the zeitgeist is able to switch over to
Speaker 1: this more these more circular economic models. We have enough water,
Speaker 1: we have enough resources. That's what we've found over the
Speaker 1: past Decadeyeah, you know, but it's.
Speaker 2: Hard, you know. I mean I get that it's hard,
Speaker 2: you know. And I talk to you know, middle class
Speaker 2: people and they're like, yeah, I'll do the kind of
Speaker 2: things you're saying. Once I've got like a million dollars
Speaker 2: in my four oh one k plan, right then I'll stop.
Speaker 2: Or just I just need to work two more years
Speaker 2: at this bad job that I know is just drawing
Speaker 2: the planet and then I can stop. And when I
Speaker 2: listen to them, they sound like addicts, you know, where
Speaker 2: it's like, dude, I just got a drink until this
Speaker 2: project is done, just until this, just until the next thing.
Speaker 2: And there is no it actually it's it's now, It
Speaker 2: really is now. There is there is no next first,
Speaker 2: there's no next big thing that's gonna say. I was
Speaker 2: talking to a billionaire who says, Oh, I've got this
Speaker 2: carbon capture device. We're gonna put it right on the
Speaker 2: back of the car and right on the back of
Speaker 2: the truck and it's gonna suck the carbon out so
Speaker 2: we don't even have to go to EV's Like, oh good,
Speaker 2: the fuck luck with that, you know, or oh eco
Speaker 2: city thing, it's like a pill and you drop it
Speaker 2: into the water and the city's going to grow out
Speaker 2: of it. That's you know, magical, crypto perfect city for
Speaker 2: children and regenerative agriculture, and there's a stack for this
Speaker 2: and a stack there's no thing. But it's hard to
Speaker 2: tell people like right now, how do they start?
Speaker 7: You know?
Speaker 2: And that for me, if we talk about it and
Speaker 2: and I've given up with this, if we talk about
Speaker 2: it as oh, a new economic system or a thing,
Speaker 2: then they're like, oh, no, it's a socialist or something.
Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, you know. And if we could sort
Speaker 2: of take the ism off socialism and just make it
Speaker 2: like social social like and it's interesting, you end up
Speaker 2: in the same place, but you win the argument. So
Speaker 2: I do that thing about, you know, instead of buying
Speaker 2: a drill from home minimum viable product a drill from
Speaker 2: home depot and making all this waste and using it once,
Speaker 2: go to Bob's house, knock on Bob's door and say, Bob,
Speaker 2: can I borrow your drill? Right? And Bob is gonna
Speaker 2: bring a big, thick, matterfucking drill that plugs in the
Speaker 2: wall the way God intended. And he's gonna come over
Speaker 2: and say, Doug, you're a fucking nerd. You don't know
Speaker 2: where to you don't know where to find a stud.
Speaker 2: I'm coming over and drill in the whole for you. Right,
Speaker 2: He's gonna make the hole. It's gonna be great. But
Speaker 2: then like three days later, that weekend, I'm supposed to
Speaker 2: have a barbecue at my house. Bob's gonna smell the barbecue,
Speaker 2: and Bob's gonna think, wait a minute. I went over
Speaker 2: and helped Doug drill a hole in the wall, and
Speaker 2: he didn't invite me over to the barbecue. So now
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to invite Bob over. All right, So
Speaker 2: I invite Bob to the barbecue. That's fine, and Bob
Speaker 2: turns I know. It turns out he's nice and his
Speaker 2: wife is kind of nice, and his kids are cool,
Speaker 2: and they're like, all right, well that's so bad. But
Speaker 2: now the other neighbors smell the barbecue and they're like,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why is Doug inviting Bob to the
Speaker 2: barbecue and not us. Before long, we're gonna have a
Speaker 2: block party and everybody's gonna be having fun at this barbecue. Right,
Speaker 2: that's the nightmare, Right, that's the downside the brand thing.
Speaker 2: But now that we're all together and talking, how did
Speaker 2: we meet? Well, you know, I borrowed Bob's drill. Now
Speaker 2: people on the block say, you know, I wonder I
Speaker 2: was gonna need a new lawnmower. But instead of me
Speaker 2: buying a new lawnmower, what if we just like use
Speaker 2: two or three lawnmowers for the whole block and we
Speaker 2: just share the ones we have because I don't use
Speaker 2: it more than a couple hours a week. So now
Speaker 2: we're buying less lawnmowers, buying less drills, and we have
Speaker 2: more money to start doing stuff. I'm teaching Bob's kid
Speaker 2: algebra because I'm paying him back for the favor that
Speaker 2: he gave me, and it's all working out. Someone invariably
Speaker 2: gets up when I do that in a talk and says, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: but what about the drill company? Yeah, bad for sale?
Speaker 2: What about right, and the person who was the job
Speaker 2: at the drill company and the old lady? Someone said,
Speaker 2: what about the old lady who has a pension fund
Speaker 2: that's dependent on the stock and the drill company for
Speaker 2: her to uh for her to survive it's like, well,
Speaker 2: luckily we're going to be taking care of that old
Speaker 2: lady because now we have a neighborhood, and hopefully we're
Speaker 2: gonna wind this down. That's why we're not doing it
Speaker 2: in revolution. I'm not saying everybody today stop buying drill, right,
Speaker 2: it's not going to work like that. But slowly and surely,
Speaker 2: as we replace some of that activity, the power of
Speaker 2: these giant mega corporations kind of diminishes. This huge, you know,
Speaker 2: ridiculous global supply chains end up kind of shrinking down,
Speaker 2: and we slowly kind of turn the corner towards something
Speaker 2: more social, more circular, more on the ground. We take
Speaker 2: some of the weight off government and social service programs
Speaker 2: to take care of us, We take some of the
Speaker 2: weight off the climate, off the economy, and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: All at the same time. The next what I meant
Speaker 2: by you know, I have more hope in people that
Speaker 2: people could kind of flip and go, oh this is fun. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm okay with this.
Speaker 1: What if life was actually fun? Like that's kind of
Speaker 1: a crazy idea.
Speaker 2: But how many drills do I have? But I need drills?
Speaker 2: That's drills.
Speaker 1: There's this David Wayne movie the ten where like he
Speaker 1: and his native or two characters like two neighbors get
Speaker 1: in a cat scan buying frenzy where they just like
Speaker 1: they get competitive about.
Speaker 2: Buying cat scans.
Speaker 1: Anyways, I don't know why I mean, but yeah, you
Speaker 1: like just to the point of the socializing you reference
Speaker 1: a couple times in the book, like these powerful, unconscious
Speaker 1: connective forces that are happening at the level of like
Speaker 1: mirror neurons, right, and you also mentioned that like the powerful,
Speaker 1: the more powerful people get, the less likely they are
Speaker 1: to have this exchange to engage in the mirroring of others.
Speaker 1: So it almost feels like that we're being delivered from
Speaker 1: this very powerful, you know, way that we become part
Speaker 1: of a network connected to other people, made up of
Speaker 1: other people, Like that's very natural, very human, like how
Speaker 1: humanity got this far. We're being delivered from that by
Speaker 1: these powerful people who are like mapping onto us. They're
Speaker 1: weird thing that is like that doesn't value that, that
Speaker 1: doesn't see the intrinsic value of that, and it's making
Speaker 1: us miserable, right yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the way like a Marshall McClue in
Speaker 2: or somebody a media theorist would look at it is
Speaker 2: what you're talking about are the values of the television age. Right,
Speaker 2: We got television, and we use television to paint pictures
Speaker 2: of the world that made us feel inadequate about where
Speaker 2: we are that we need to get that other thing.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 2: The television is sort of what put us in competition
Speaker 2: with each other and kind of desocialized us because the less,
Speaker 2: you know, the less satisfied people were, the more likely
Speaker 2: they were to go buy stuff. So television was this
Speaker 2: really terrific influencing machine and that supported markets and companies
Speaker 2: and consumption and all that. And now we've moved into
Speaker 2: a digital age and we're kind of using that same
Speaker 2: industrial age television era. Oh, let's use it to influence
Speaker 2: people and get them to buy more stuff and all that.
Speaker 2: And it's like, well, maybe that's not the digital thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not sustainable. It's too when a digital
Speaker 2: algorithm can can reconfigure itself in real time to influence
Speaker 2: your behavior, it's like, this isn't gonna work anymore. This
Speaker 2: isn't just gonna get people to buy forward cars, right,
Speaker 2: because people don't even have jobs at ford that where
Speaker 2: they can afford a ford Car. It's like this is
Speaker 2: this is flipped in a different place. So I think
Speaker 2: we have to stop kind of using media to get
Speaker 2: people to do stuff and start looking at using media
Speaker 2: and technology to provide people, you know, some of what
Speaker 2: some of what they need, which is it's a it's
Speaker 2: a big it's a it's a big mind shift, but
Speaker 2: you know what, you know what I mean, this is
Speaker 2: like a very different media environment that this stuff works
Speaker 2: differently than industrial age stuff. We're not just coaxing people.
Speaker 2: It's if television was more like social media, which is
Speaker 2: more like say the missionaries, they go to a population
Speaker 2: and they propagandize them, They get them to worship the
Speaker 2: new God, and they do a lot of intelligence on them.
Speaker 2: And then the missionaries send the intelligence back to the crown.
Speaker 2: And who comes next the conquistadors. Right, they know how
Speaker 2: to data population works. They've got the intels, they go
Speaker 2: in and they get them. That's kind of what the
Speaker 2: AIS and the digital things are. They're the conquistadors not
Speaker 2: just coming to influence us, but coming to annihilate and
Speaker 2: replace us. And that's uh, wait a minute, that's not
Speaker 2: that's not gonna work. So that's why we have to
Speaker 2: flip the script and say, well, what you how can
Speaker 2: they how can they serve us instead? And this technology
Speaker 2: could you know I once you start saying wait a minute,
Speaker 2: once you get out of the framework of how do
Speaker 2: we retrain people for better jobs once the ais come,
Speaker 2: and start thinking instead, how do we retrain people for
Speaker 2: lives of meaning and pleasure and leisure? And it's like, ooh,
Speaker 2: that would be that be.
Speaker 3: Kind of fun, right, because I feel like so much
Speaker 3: talk even like with like universal basic income, it's always
Speaker 3: just like offset the damage that tech innovation is gonna do.
Speaker 3: It's not because humans like we just because we're so productive,
Speaker 3: we should begin shifting to something that resembles more like
Speaker 3: leisure time or family, like, right, the ability to just
Speaker 3: commune with nature because you want to. It's always like, well, yeah, man,
Speaker 3: when this tech comes online, everybody's fucked. So the only
Speaker 3: way we can keep them at bay is by giving
Speaker 3: them like a pittance every fucking month. And that's universal
Speaker 3: basic income. And it's always interesting to see, like in
Speaker 3: your analysis, like a lot of these things that we
Speaker 3: are we're getting preached to us by like these tech people.
Speaker 3: It's always like it's never actually to solve anything. It's
Speaker 3: it's a solution that is just it's it, but it's
Speaker 3: a it's a new product packaged as a solution that
Speaker 3: is never actually tended to address what's happening. So we're
Speaker 3: in this snow, but like this constant, like this never
Speaker 3: ending thing that only leads to increased like to your point,
Speaker 3: depleting our resources, you know, degrading the environment. Which for them,
Speaker 3: it's like, well that's the end game is then it's
Speaker 3: gonna all break because I'm too good at capitalism, and
Speaker 3: then I got to shoot the pores.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: It's like for programmers who are so big on disrupting systems,
Speaker 2: you think they would consider disrupting corporate capitalism. They would
Speaker 2: consider something other than running to Morgan Stanley with every
Speaker 2: new invention they have. But they're ultimately so reactionary. They're
Speaker 2: so conservative they don't challenge the underlying assumptions that their
Speaker 2: companies are based on. I'm going to go disrupt the
Speaker 2: taxi market. I'm going to disrupt the book market, But
Speaker 2: what about disrupting the market market asupting that with abundance?
Speaker 2: You know, It's like this is this is so much
Speaker 2: easier than writing another clue to make this current system,
Speaker 2: you know, churn another ten years while you look for
Speaker 2: a way out. And the other side, you know, like
Speaker 2: the Koch brother side of this thing. You know, those
Speaker 2: guys are the big climate deniers. If you go to
Speaker 2: an actual Koch Brothers conference, they all believe in climate change.
Speaker 2: They've got all this stuff on what's gonna happen and
Speaker 2: the methane gas and the this and the that. But
Speaker 2: their objective is, don't let us be the only ones
Speaker 2: who know what's happening so we can prepare for it,
Speaker 2: while the rest of society is is is told that
Speaker 2: this is a myth. Yeah, yeah, the very like elitist
Speaker 2: thinking that's happening. It's really cynical. Yeah, yeah, the mind
Speaker 2: and the more that that happens and the more paranoid
Speaker 2: people get, then they get into QAnon and five g
Speaker 2: Towers and the Great Reset and that COVID was here
Speaker 2: to reduce the population of the world. And you know,
Speaker 2: because I get it, it's comforting to believe there's like
Speaker 2: an Avengers style Doctor Evil super villain George Sorow's Jew,
Speaker 2: you know, who's who's controlling the world with his you know,
Speaker 2: from the Italian embassy with space lasers or something. But
Speaker 2: it's like, I know, however comforting that is. It's time
Speaker 2: to grow up and say, no, no, we are we
Speaker 2: are in charge here, We're actually this is much simpler.
Speaker 2: This is much simpler than it looks. The only time
Speaker 2: we really get into problems is when we're trying to
Speaker 2: operate at scale, you know, like Zuck or Musk or whoever.
Speaker 2: If you want to operate locally, like ninety nine point
Speaker 2: nine percent of us can operate locally, and we could,
Speaker 2: let's just dedicate one million people to thinking at scale,
Speaker 2: you know? Is that enough? Ten million people thinking at scale?
Speaker 2: It's like, let them go do that, so we could
Speaker 2: just take care of each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's like funny too because like for for
Speaker 3: all of like the ways I think we're just you know,
Speaker 3: propagandaized into thinking, oh, you know, there is no solute
Speaker 3: like the only solution is to just hit the fucking
Speaker 3: pedal harder and go through this rather than like slowing
Speaker 3: down or looking at it.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 3: We have so many examples even in our recent history
Speaker 3: that shows that, like you know, like you you bring
Speaker 3: up the Greenwood District in Oklahoma, like black people were
Speaker 3: completely excluded from the mainstream American economy. So they figured
Speaker 3: out how to do it on their own outside of it,
Speaker 3: and it was something that was cooperative and was just like, well,
Speaker 3: if we only have us to rely on, and then like,
Speaker 3: let's make this work. And sure enough, it got to
Speaker 3: a point where it invited all this resentment that we
Speaker 3: had that race massacre.
Speaker 2: Right, well, because the whites were confused. Wait a minute,
Speaker 2: if these black people were cut off from the economy
Speaker 2: and they're not allowed to participate, why are they doing
Speaker 2: better than us?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Right, So they went in and killed them, right, that's right.
Speaker 2: But we got to look back at it and go, oh,
Speaker 2: they were doing better then that. The blacks are doing
Speaker 2: better because being cut off forced them into local, circular
Speaker 2: economic activity. They started relying on each other and yes,
Speaker 2: doing better. Now, do you need to be cut off? No,
Speaker 2: there's a balance, right, you shouldn't have to be completely
Speaker 2: cut off either. But boy, oh boy, when you see
Speaker 2: a lesson like that, when you see the way American
Speaker 2: farmers got out of the depression, you know, through stuff
Speaker 2: that really looked like communism and got cooperative land ownership
Speaker 2: and local currencies, you realize what we need is a
Speaker 2: more balanced set of economic instruments, you know, different ways
Speaker 2: of operating where we're doing favors for each other doesn't
Speaker 2: look like wrong on some level. You know, people these days,
Speaker 2: where can we want to do a clean transaction? We'd
Speaker 2: rather have someone we don't know come in and clean
Speaker 2: our house for money. Then the neighbors kids are trying to,
Speaker 2: you know, right, do something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the I mean the dumbwaiter effect, which you've already
Speaker 1: made reference to, like the invention of the dumb waiter
Speaker 1: by Thomas Jefferson, which in you know, elementary school history
Speaker 1: classes is claimed to be.
Speaker 2: Oh, he wanted to save the quote unquote.
Speaker 1: Servants at his house from having to walk up and
Speaker 1: down the stairs with heavy plates, and it's actually no,
Speaker 1: he wanted to hide the fact that he had human
Speaker 1: cost slaves behind the you know, hide it from people
Speaker 1: on a lower floor. There's this anecdote in the book
Speaker 1: that really drives home like what we're up against. Where
Speaker 1: so it's the people assembling our iPhones for Apple are
Speaker 1: made to use this toxic fingerprint cleaning solution to make
Speaker 1: the new product, to just make sure there's absolutely no
Speaker 1: smudges on an iPhone when you open it in the box.
Speaker 1: When it comes out of the box, it is toxic.
Speaker 1: It poisons them, but they.
Speaker 2: Get premature babies come out of them and stuff. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's really bad but completely like.
Speaker 1: But it's such a good example also of the genius
Speaker 1: of capitalism, as this like singularity, like you're erasing even
Speaker 1: the subliminal clues of the exploitation behind our most beloved products,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't even like enter into our minds like
Speaker 1: they're they're doing this like five levels deep thinking because
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, the people like these Harvard
Speaker 1: educated people are like going to work for Apple and
Speaker 1: coming up that innovation like we have. Well, like what
Speaker 1: we found is that if they see the smudges, then
Speaker 1: like they start to become like get a vague sense
Speaker 1: of unease with the world.
Speaker 2: So it has to look like this perfect.
Speaker 1: Gleaming cube that that was just like delivered down from
Speaker 1: on high and like with Amazon does it less artfully
Speaker 1: but like more blatantly. It is their entire business model
Speaker 1: to remove the workers at the store from our lives
Speaker 1: by replacing them with packages that just show up and
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and they're not high like they
Speaker 1: have a company called the mechanical Turk named for like
Speaker 1: that that's a historical event where like a robot beat
Speaker 1: everyone at chess, but was really just a chess master
Speaker 1: in a like suit that was made to look like
Speaker 1: a robot. So like it's we're up against a lot
Speaker 1: of very complex things that like knows exactly what it's doing,
Speaker 1: that is really going out of its way to try
Speaker 1: to deliver you from having the thoughts that you're talking
Speaker 1: about of like maybe I should like hang out with
Speaker 1: people in my neighborhood, Like maybe, you know, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: this isn't as simple as I want it to be.
Speaker 1: Maybe the thrill that I get from opening this box
Speaker 1: and having an iPhone there that looks like the object
Speaker 1: from two thousand and one, you know, like that that
Speaker 1: isn't a thrill that I should be pursuing. But they're
Speaker 1: working hard, but it does feel like we're getting further
Speaker 1: and further away from like just fully being absorbed by
Speaker 1: their bullshit. But I don't have a ton of evidence
Speaker 1: for that.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's why I try to write a
Speaker 2: book about them that makes us laugh at them, so
Speaker 2: you can see, Okay, if these are little nerd people
Speaker 2: who are scared of human beings. Then that's why they
Speaker 2: project onto us the fear of a fingerprint, the fear
Speaker 2: of knowing, you know, the fear of the people and
Speaker 2: the dirt and the women and the nature and the
Speaker 2: all that stuff. It's like, I get it, you know.
Speaker 2: And there are there are pills that can help us
Speaker 2: emotionally survive in a world where we don't have that
Speaker 2: human contact certain whatever SSRIs and antidepressants and all that.
Speaker 2: But there's also ones that are sort of encouraging complexity.
Speaker 2: There's all the new people out microdosing and trying mushroom
Speaker 2: therapy and doing other things. Although I'm still confused that
Speaker 2: you could take a fucking tech bro, send them down
Speaker 2: to South America and have them to do a bunch
Speaker 2: of ayahuasca and you would think it would bring their
Speaker 2: great reckoning and they go, oh, you know, I've got
Speaker 2: to reconnect with the world and the people and the thing.
Speaker 2: But it's like somewhere between their their ayahuasca trip and
Speaker 2: their their G five flight back to San Jose, they
Speaker 2: reverse engineer that the friggin' social network they've made is
Speaker 2: that solution.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the product they're already working on is actually the thing. Right,
Speaker 1: if they can just find this one like tweak to
Speaker 1: the algorithm, that's actually what is going to right.
Speaker 2: But when their focus is on post humans rather than humans,
Speaker 2: which a lot of for a lot of them, it
Speaker 2: is right. You don't post humans don't have those fingerprints.
Speaker 2: Post humans don't have the the you know, the aborted fetuses.
Speaker 2: The posthumans are are this sort of idealized idea of
Speaker 2: the human, the kind of the tech bro idea of
Speaker 2: human as information as perfectly auto tuned soul liess you know, abstraction, right,
Speaker 2: which which I understand. I understand the yearning for that.
Speaker 2: You know, anybody who's fallen in love with an anime
Speaker 2: character knows what that is. But it's it's a stage, right,
Speaker 2: It's a stage of adolescents, not a fruitful place.
Speaker 1: For us to go.
Speaker 2: Stables.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesus well, I truly feel like, more than ever,
Speaker 1: this episode could go on for seven hours and we
Speaker 1: could keep talking about this. This is so fascinating. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for writing the book, and thanks for
Speaker 1: coming on show.
Speaker 2: Thank you for reading it. You know, people, people, even people.
Speaker 2: I'm happy that people buy my book, but I'm even
Speaker 2: more happy when they read it. You know, yeah, which
Speaker 2: is rare. It's a subset of a subfet right.
Speaker 3: It's not just like, Yo, you see what I got
Speaker 3: on my wall that got that new rush off? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Did you read it? Nah? Yeah, but I bet it's
Speaker 2: the introduction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking on our wall, I have the dawn of
Speaker 1: everything over there, and I really appreciate it your your
Speaker 1: I think more people need to hear what they did
Speaker 1: to Pinker in that book.
Speaker 2: It's so great. He deserved every bit. Y yeah you did.
Speaker 3: And also yeah, just for listeners, you got to check
Speaker 3: the I mean, like it's so expansive because, like I said,
Speaker 3: my sort of experience with the book was being like, Okay,
Speaker 3: we're gonna talk about bunkers, and for a second you do,
Speaker 3: but then again you sort of zoom out to really
Speaker 3: understand why it's it's the bunker. Isn't the fucking the bunker.
Speaker 3: It's just another manifestation of this thinking that is actually
Speaker 3: the such a destructive force right now and gets into
Speaker 3: everything from the momentum we've carried into like our our
Speaker 3: our perception of science and nature and you know, like
Speaker 3: returning to the womb using technology and things and all
Speaker 3: these other things. So it's a really great book, and yeah,
Speaker 3: encourage everybody to check it out because it's it doesn't disappoint,
Speaker 3: especially if you enjoyed this episode, which I'm sure you did.
Speaker 2: Free yourself, Free yourself of the bunker in your mind.
Speaker 1: Right, I'm just digging a hole in the mud in
Speaker 1: my backyard, and I think it's gonna suck, to be honest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for my family, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I told you. They just they just look like
Speaker 3: shallow graves.
Speaker 2: To be honest. But I'm sure your family is really
Speaker 2: encouraged by that.
Speaker 1: Dad's making a bunker, No worry, he's building a bike
Speaker 1: out of old bike out of old hangars. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: might be smoking at the same time. Good luck, Thank you, goode.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you?
Speaker 2: Follow you all that?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 2: Joh, don't follow me? But I mean I got tweeting,
Speaker 2: but I'm so over it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The most people following me now are these little fake
Speaker 2: stripper accounts. Have you seen all these Oh yeah, it's
Speaker 2: like bot accounts, these bought but they're not even real
Speaker 2: real stripper accounts. They're like fake, they're bought stripper. It's like,
Speaker 2: what is that I'm trying to do? What do they want?
Speaker 6: Why?
Speaker 4: Why?
Speaker 2: Retweet me of all things, but whatever, retweet me no,
Speaker 2: come to uh uh buy this book, Survival of the
Speaker 2: Richest Escape Fantasy of the Tech Billionaires. Get it at
Speaker 2: your like local bookstore if you can, or your library
Speaker 2: or something. I got a podcast on my own called
Speaker 2: Team Human. You can check that out Team Human. Get it.
Speaker 2: We're on Team Human. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, I got
Speaker 2: a website rushcoff dot com. Or come actually play with me.
Speaker 2: I'm teaching. I started a new master's program at Queen's College,
Speaker 2: which is part of City University of New York. And
Speaker 2: we're just doing this kind of stuff. So if you
Speaker 2: want to get a master's in theory and media studies
Speaker 2: or tactical media, come and will and will and we'll
Speaker 2: play live.
Speaker 1: Amazing And is there a work of media that you've
Speaker 1: been enjoying, Well.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm really enjoying. Yeah. There's a woman
Speaker 2: named Niche Devno it's hard to say n e s
Speaker 2: e devn o d e v e n o t
Speaker 2: And she tweeted this thing about you know, test cREL.
Speaker 2: It's this word that's basically it's it's it's it's a
Speaker 2: word that means it's kind of the mindset. It's like
Speaker 2: techno utopianism and and uh life extension and effective altruism
Speaker 2: is this paper she wrote called testcrel Hallucinations Psychedelic and
Speaker 2: AI Hype as inequality Engines, And what she does is
Speaker 2: she compares the sort of the new psychedelic industry hype
Speaker 2: to the new AI industry hype and shows how they're
Speaker 2: kind of the same thing, and both of them are
Speaker 2: designed to do the same old thing to keep the
Speaker 2: poor down. And I was just like, dang, I really
Speaker 2: hadn't seen it's the same thing. What they're doing, what
Speaker 2: they're gonna do to psychedelics is the same thing that
Speaker 2: they did to the Internet in the nineties. They're about
Speaker 2: to do to psychedelics. Just watch Amazing Miles Where can
Speaker 2: people find you? What is the work of media you've
Speaker 2: been enjoying at Miles of Gray all over the place?
Speaker 3: Check Jack and I out on our basketball podcast Miles
Speaker 3: and Jack Got Mad Boosties. If you want to hear
Speaker 3: me talk about ninety day Fiance, you know something a
Speaker 3: little bit more elevated than the discussion we had talking
Speaker 3: about trash Reality Where I escape that's my bunker. Check
Speaker 3: out for twenty day fiance and the Good Thief where
Speaker 3: we talk about the Greek robin Hood who was kidnapping
Speaker 3: millionaires and doing some good old fashioned wealth re distribution.
Speaker 3: I love to see it. A tweet I like is
Speaker 3: from Mike Kaplan at Mike Kaplan m y Qkapla and
Speaker 3: who tweeted you never hear about people who are good
Speaker 3: to the bone, like to hear the bone hear more
Speaker 3: about them tweet.
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying just anything from Jimmy Butler's new look
Speaker 1: with the Miami Heat yesterday at Media Day, and particularly
Speaker 1: whoever came up with the nickname ball out boy for that.
Speaker 1: He came with an emo wig and said announced I'm
Speaker 1: emo now, and.
Speaker 2: Then I think when asked to which nickname for.
Speaker 1: His new look was his favorite, he did have the
Speaker 1: good taste to say ball out boy. He also had
Speaker 1: like a bunch of facial piercings and stuff. It was
Speaker 1: really a fun He's making media day actually interesting for
Speaker 1: the first time. You can find me on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Jack Underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Daily Zeitgeist. We're at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We
Speaker 1: have a Facebook fan page and a website Daily zei
Speaker 1: guys dot comboy.
Speaker 2: We post our episodes in our footnotes.
Speaker 1: We link off to the information that we talked about
Speaker 1: in today's episode, as well as the song that we
Speaker 1: think you might enjoy.
Speaker 2: Miles, what song do you think people might enjoy?
Speaker 3: The Due Minahan Street Band, Brooklyn Band and I love
Speaker 3: so much. They've got musicians from like L Michael's Affair,
Speaker 3: who we've done, Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings, Anti
Speaker 3: Ballast And this is a track that just something nice
Speaker 3: and easy and just musical and funky to get you
Speaker 3: into your week. And it's called Queen's Highway by the
Speaker 3: minahand or Menahan Street Band. I don't know if I've
Speaker 3: completely botched that pronunciation, but either way, check it out.
Speaker 3: Queen's Highway.
Speaker 2: All right, well, we will.
Speaker 1: Link off to that in the footnote. The Daily zeis Guys,
Speaker 1: a production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. That's gonna do it
Speaker 1: for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell you
Speaker 1: what's trending, and we'll talk to you all.
Speaker 3: Bye bye