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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three oh seven,

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Speaker 1: Episode two of Danny's gay.

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Speaker 2: Production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: This is a podcast where we take a deep dive

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Speaker 1: into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, October third,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, National Techies Day. Kind of a kind kind of appropriate,

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Speaker 3: yeah for our guest. Today's also yeah, National Fruit at

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Speaker 3: Work Day. I don't know what I think. It's a

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Speaker 3: picture of an apple and a laptop, so hey, fight

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Speaker 3: into your favorite fruit while you're at work. Uh, and

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Speaker 3: you know, holler at your techies today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a behavior, bringing fruit to work, a behavior

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Speaker 1: that needed to be honored and defended with a national day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's been maybe a decade since I

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Speaker 1: heard somebody use the phrase techie. Yeah, so outdated, like

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Speaker 1: a like nineteen eighties, like that there would be a

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Speaker 1: movie about like tech people that turn into zombies or something.

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Speaker 1: Crist right, Yeah, yeah, very Anyways, my name is Jack

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Speaker 1: O'Brien aka Potatoes O'Brien, and I'm thrilled to be joined

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Speaker 1: as always.

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Speaker 2: By my co host, mister Miles Gray. You know it's

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Speaker 2: Miles Brad.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to do a long AKA, but we got

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Speaker 3: a lot to talk about, so I'll keep it short.

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Speaker 3: It's your favorite black and Theese experimental visual artist Yo

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Speaker 3: Boy Kusama. Thank you so much for having me back.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome, Welcome, Welcome back, Miles, Miles.

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Speaker 4: We are thrilled to be joined in our third seats

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Speaker 4: by an author, a documentarian who MIT called one of

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Speaker 4: the world's ten most influential intellectuals.

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Speaker 1: He's published many twenty books, including the one we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about about today, Survival of the Richest

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Speaker 1: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires. Please, Welcome to the show,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Douglas rush Cobra.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome, Thanks for having me, Thanks so much for

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Speaker 3: joining us. Yeah, like we were saying before, we're we

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Speaker 3: talk like we always like to have experts on on

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Speaker 3: certain things. And one thing we always keep hearing about

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Speaker 3: is like the scaries that billionaires get when they think

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Speaker 3: about the poor people rising up. And we've like we've

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Speaker 3: touched on like people buying properties in New Zealand and

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Speaker 3: like these like billionaire escape bunkers and things like that,

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Speaker 3: and so when we were wanting to sort of discuss

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Speaker 3: this further, it was like it was just great to

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Speaker 3: like sort of see your work sort of completely overlap

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Speaker 3: with that, but also have like a larger look at

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Speaker 3: like it's really not so much about the bunkers themselves,

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Speaker 3: but the flawed thinking around even wanting a fucking bunker

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Speaker 3: to escape it all. So, yeah, we're really stoked to have.

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Speaker 2: You on that. Cool no, and thanks for that too,

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Speaker 2: because some you know, I write this book and there's

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Speaker 2: this opening scene right where I meet the billionaires who

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Speaker 2: all want advice on their bunkers, and most of the

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Speaker 2: journalists and newspapers and stuff who've covered it, they're like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, the billionaires are going to leave us behind.

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Speaker 2: This is happening, and it's like, dude, read the book.

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Speaker 2: These guys are pathetic. None of this is working. The

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Speaker 2: whole point of that scene it's a comedy. It's a comedy.

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Speaker 2: This is laughable. These guys are nuts, right yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So it kind of leaves that behind pretty quickly, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then focuses on, you know, like tells the story

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Speaker 1: of how we got here, why we are here. If

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Speaker 1: you needed any evidence, any more evidence that we are here,

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Speaker 1: there is a sixty minutes piece I think last this

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Speaker 1: past week where they were talking about Sam Bankment Freed,

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Speaker 1: and like Michael Lewis was like, man, he's a great guy.

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Speaker 1: Like the world needs a Sam Bankment Freed to like

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Speaker 1: save us from ourselves type shit.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, he was saying that, I know he's got

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Speaker 2: a new book, Michael Lewis. You know he's like Moneyball

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Speaker 2: great right or yeah, the Big Short and he's he's

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Speaker 2: got a book coming out like next week or the

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Speaker 2: week after about Sam Bankman Freed, And people don't know

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Speaker 2: that's the crypto crazy he you know, giant crypto crash.

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Speaker 2: He took zillions and billions of dollars of people's money

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Speaker 2: with him on this basically, I mean maybe he meant well,

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Speaker 2: but it was a crypto pyramid scheme that he was running.

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Speaker 2: And but the weirder thing is like he's an effective altruist.

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Speaker 2: He's he's basically one of these people who believes that

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Speaker 2: the human beings alive today, like the eight billion people

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Speaker 2: around we're just like the Larval stage of humanity. We're

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Speaker 2: like the maggots on the original medium, and the ones

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Speaker 2: that matter are the posthuman ais that are going to

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Speaker 2: spread throughout the universe. So if you have to make

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Speaker 2: choices now that cause pain and suffering for these little

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Speaker 2: eight billion worms. It's okay because the super ais are

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Speaker 2: going to be are going to be happier and.

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Speaker 1: We will we will be come how many people there

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Speaker 1: are going to be before like after that? The direct

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Speaker 1: quote from michae lewis there is still a Sam bankmin

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Speaker 1: Freed shaped hole in the world that now needs filling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd say maybe not so, but but yeah there is.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you talk in your book about when Jeff

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Speaker 1: Bezos went to space and like this big media kind

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Speaker 1: of orgasm that they had about just this idea of

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Speaker 1: like a private person. We're now at a place where

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Speaker 1: a private person can get so rich that they can

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Speaker 1: go to space. It's like the the ultimate deliverance of

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Speaker 1: the American dream, like on a cartoonish scale. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like people, really it does seem to be of

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Speaker 1: the zeitgeist to like buy into this shit still, like

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Speaker 1: we're starting to see some of the magic wearoff thanks

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Speaker 1: to Elon Musk being a public dipshit, but it's it's

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Speaker 1: still a mess. So we're going to dig into all

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Speaker 1: of all of that stuff plenty more before we get

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Speaker 1: into the content of your book. We do like to

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Speaker 1: ask our guests if there's something from your search history

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Speaker 1: you would be so kind to share with us that's

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Speaker 1: revealing about who you are or what you're up to.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how revealing it is, but I

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Speaker 2: look to see what it was, so I would be honest, right,

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Speaker 2: And what's the last search history? Right? It's not unfortunate.

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Speaker 2: It's not some cool porn thing. It was. It was

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Speaker 2: what and that wouldn't be on Google anyway, but it was, Uh,

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Speaker 2: which COVID vaccine has less side effects that MODERNA or Pfiser?

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Speaker 2: Because I had to go in for one today and

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Speaker 2: they said that it seems that Pfiser's got less side effects.

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Speaker 2: And I guess that's revealing about me, because I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so torn as so I'm not even a COVID

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Speaker 2: scept skeptic anymore. I'm just a COVID confused nick. Right,

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Speaker 2: where did it come from? Is it bad? Is it

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Speaker 2: less bad than they're saying? Is it more bad than

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Speaker 2: they're saying? So I figured I would I would kind

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Speaker 2: of split the difference by finding whatever whatever vaccine, I'll

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Speaker 2: take it. But I wanted to be the least the.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of the vaccine, which COVID vaccine the best that

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Speaker 1: would be how I would search. I get very dumb

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Speaker 1: when I'm talking to Google, Like I feel like I

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Speaker 1: have to talk to Google like I have frontal lobe damage.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well the vaccine probably too. Like when I saw

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Speaker 3: the thing about like Maderna being like slightly more like effective,

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Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, yeah that's me, that's me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, got that one. Yeah, has less side.

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Speaker 1: Effects including working. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't work. That's what

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Speaker 1: we identify with here at this show.

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Speaker 2: But madern is like, you know, ten times the dose

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Speaker 2: of Pfizer. So it's like it's more strong, but it's

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Speaker 2: like we'll be able to I'll take the less strong.

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Speaker 2: It's like I'm gonna have the Costa Ricum blend rather

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Speaker 2: than the French dark French.

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Speaker 3: Roast, French roast, right, sure, sure, sure, I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to get the Vietnamese iced coffee version of it.

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Speaker 1: Still haven't had it, but still circling. What is something

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Speaker 1: that you think is overrated?

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Speaker 2: Hey, I AI is really I mean, honestly, so far AI,

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Speaker 2: the chat ept and all that. It's like a It's

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Speaker 2: like a skin on a Google search box. It's like

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Speaker 2: instead of getting the Google searches, it pulls like the

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Speaker 2: best paragraphs from the things that would have been in

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Speaker 2: the search and throws them together into something that sounds

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Speaker 2: kind of like Wikipedia, but it's actually like wrong. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you.

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Speaker 5: Type India without the fact checking, yeah, you type in

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Speaker 5: you know what weighs more a pound of lead or

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Speaker 5: five pounds of feathers, it'll say they weigh the same, right,

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Speaker 5: because it's finding the text and most of the times

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Speaker 5: people have talked about feathers, weighing feathers and weighing lead,

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Speaker 5: the answer has been they're the same.

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Speaker 2: And it just shows this whole it's this whole reversion

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Speaker 2: to the mean. It's like, let's get the most average

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Speaker 2: possible answer out of out of the data, and that's

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Speaker 2: really good for society looking for innovation and new ideas,

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Speaker 2: Like let's just revert to the mean, right, But the

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Speaker 2: means sucks if you want to go there. And then

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Speaker 2: like the other one is, uh, you know, mid journey

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Speaker 2: people are showing me, oh, look at this beautiful thing

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Speaker 2: I made on mid Journey, and I'm like, it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like listening to somebody's acid trip. It's like, I

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Speaker 2: know it was really good for you, But to me,

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Speaker 2: it just looks like some airbrush thing on the side

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Speaker 2: of a van. Right. It's like, yeah, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Sure it's like Tom Hanks his face on a bus.

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Speaker 3: You're like, yeah, but it's uncle bus.

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Speaker 2: Whoa. You're like, okay, okay, right, So the problem. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure it was really fun for you to interact with

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Speaker 2: that AI and get that stuff, but the result the

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Speaker 2: kind of keep it to yourself. Man, I just don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't really care. So yeah, A, I just feels

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Speaker 2: like I don't. Also, I get the interviewed so much

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Speaker 2: about it lately, like oh, is it gonna cost our jobs?

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Speaker 2: Is gonna cost our consciousness and the future of you?

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Speaker 2: I'm just like, oh, just shut up. I'm just tired

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Speaker 2: of it as a thing.

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Speaker 3: It's funny because we were on that same journey too,

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Speaker 3: Like the last couple of weeks we've had specialists on

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Speaker 3: in AI and we're like, I saw it, Skynet, It's

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Speaker 3: terminator or what like no, no, oh, okay, great, They're like,

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Speaker 3: at best it can do you know, it'll it'll it'll

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Speaker 3: crush it trivia night if you have it on you

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Speaker 3: right on.

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Speaker 1: Some like and then every seventh question, it will just

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Speaker 1: get completely wrong. Oh and in a way that makes

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Speaker 1: you wonder, like makes everybody be like, is he Okayah?

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Speaker 2: If it's going to replace jobs, it's gonna replace ship jobs,

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Speaker 2: you know. And if it's not a ship job it's replacing, well,

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Speaker 2: then it's going to do a ship job on a

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Speaker 2: job that needs someone good. It's like you don't want

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Speaker 2: to watch the AI movie or go to the AI doctor.

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Speaker 2: It's like, no, thank you, I'll do that. But but

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Speaker 2: going back to the tech bros, they're the ones who

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Speaker 2: bought in the most to it. It's it's a tech bro.

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Speaker 2: I was at one of those one of those you know,

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Speaker 2: tech bro retreats and a guy, one of the guys

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Speaker 2: who came up with one of the social apps that

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Speaker 2: I'm sure everyone is used once or twice on their phone.

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Speaker 2: Your kids used it more. But one of the guys

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Speaker 2: who came up with one of those apps was asking

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Speaker 2: me if I'm afraid because he's he's been looking at

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Speaker 2: what I've been publishing about AI, and am I afraid

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Speaker 2: that when the Ais are in charge, they're gonna, you know,

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Speaker 2: come after me for saying negative things about them? And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, all right and he and he said

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Speaker 2: he doesn't publish anything at all about AI online so

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Speaker 2: that in the future the AIS won't attack him. And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, God, if you think the AIS are so smart,

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Speaker 2: aren't they going to be able to infer from your

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Speaker 2: selective removal of all reference? Aren't they gonna be for

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Speaker 2: how you think?

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Speaker 1: And he's like, oh fuck, you know no, they're smart

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Speaker 1: enough to hack the entire like World Bank and you know,

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Speaker 1: the Pentagon, but they're not smart enough to infer subtext.

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Speaker 2: That's beyond them, right, and that with the tech pros

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Speaker 2: are the AIS? I mean that's right either.

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Speaker 1: It is well, like the I was reading that Atlantic

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Speaker 1: article on Sam Altman and his you know, the fact

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Speaker 1: that the guy who's the CEO of open AI, and

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Speaker 1: he's like, put, you know, he has his bunker and

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Speaker 1: like all his guns and a Cinai capsule that he

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Speaker 1: told the New Yorker like he's ready to go at

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Speaker 1: a moment's notice, and like seems like such bullshit.

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Speaker 2: Truly feels like.

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Speaker 1: The like they are using this to generate hype because

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Speaker 1: all publicity is good publicity, because the whole thing is

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Speaker 1: just monetized by stock market hype.

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Speaker 2: But in the same article.

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Speaker 1: Where he's like, they're gonna come for all of us,

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Speaker 1: and in that moment, I don't even want to be

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Speaker 1: around to see what they do to my family.

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Speaker 2: Sinai capsules.

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Speaker 1: In that same article, he's like his one of his

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Speaker 1: lead technologists is like, I don't think we're even close

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Speaker 1: to getting the level of accuracy on Wikipedia, like Wikipedia

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Speaker 1: is known for, and they're like, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: we ever will get to the level of Wikipedia. And

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, Wikipedia was known as like a

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Speaker 1: thing that you can easily hack and like change the

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Speaker 1: data to say whatever the fuck you want, like that

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Speaker 1: that is not a realistic, like you know, way to

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Speaker 1: fact check anything, or it was like shorthand for like

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Speaker 1: the lazy way to fact check something. And now it's

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Speaker 1: like they're like holding it up as as an unattainable goldstone.

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Speaker 6: It's yeah, well, yeah, it's because the AI is. It's

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Speaker 6: not AI is not about figuring things out. AI is

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Speaker 6: is this sort of weird imitation of language. It's more

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Speaker 6: looking at, you know, how do you what would be

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Speaker 6: the most probable next letter, what would be the most

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Speaker 6: probable next word? And it's it's a weird language game.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't. That's the thing it does. It's not

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Speaker 2: thinking about anything. The only thing that's weird about AI

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Speaker 2: is how it might be employed, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: service of whatever capitalism or manipulation or something else.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's it's clear to see those

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Speaker 3: dangers like immedia. I'm like, oh yeah, every like business

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Speaker 3: owner would probably try and be like, all right, how

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Speaker 3: I get rid of workers by using this? But again,

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Speaker 3: that seems to be like the most direct sort of

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Speaker 3: feasible threat that I can see at the moment.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, right, And the only problem with getting rid

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Speaker 2: of workers is if you don't feed the workers. After that.

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Speaker 2: It's like, I was doing this thing on CNN and

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Speaker 2: they were like about AI, and there I was. I

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Speaker 2: was kind of poopooing the threat of AI, and they're like, well,

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Speaker 2: what about the unemployment problem? And I look. It was

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Speaker 2: like Jake Tapper or somebody, and I look at him

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Speaker 2: and I go, but what about the unemployment solution? It's like,

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Speaker 2: since what is I don't really need to be a

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Speaker 2: I don't have employment as a goal, right, Yeah. I

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Speaker 2: want stuff I want meaning I want to maybe work

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Speaker 2: on things, but employment let's look at let's you know,

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Speaker 2: let's look at some of our underlying assumptions here. So

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Speaker 2: it'd be great. I mean, the thing is that the

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Speaker 2: discussion that AI could create is so much more interesting

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Speaker 2: than the world it would create, because it's not going

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Speaker 2: to replace the job. It just it isn't. Sadly, that's

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Speaker 2: not at least not how we how we would use it,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we'll just create a new kind of work,

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Speaker 2: which is like consumption, like going to the mall or

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Speaker 2: whatever it is we're supposed to do to keep those

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Speaker 2: things alive.

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Speaker 1: Right, I could see a world where they like over

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Speaker 1: rely on it, like we're already seeing it in Like

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Speaker 1: I keep talking about this one headline I saw in

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Speaker 1: the margins of a news article that was and I

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Speaker 1: used to write like headlines for a website that I

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Speaker 1: ran called Cracked, And I would like I paid attention

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Speaker 1: to headline writing. So I'm like, I have like a

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Speaker 1: loose like I noticed when headlines are well written, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I noticed when they are great.

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Speaker 2: I was a headline editor on my college paper too.

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Speaker 2: I just loved it. I mean, it's a great thing

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Speaker 2: to conceive it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I you know, I've noticed an overall

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Speaker 1: drop in quality of like the headline t's of late

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Speaker 1: like just a backwards slide. But recently I saw one

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Speaker 1: there was a picture of Vince Vaughn and it said

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Speaker 1: it's no big secret why Van Vaant doesn't work in

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Speaker 1: Hollywood anymore, and it was just like, yeah, they have

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like they're already turning it over to AI.

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Speaker 1: The AI is doing a shitty job, but like they

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Speaker 1: don't care because they get to say they're using AI

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Speaker 1: and that powers their stock price. And I like, in

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Speaker 1: the same way that like the before we had a

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Speaker 1: actual actually functioning internet, we had like the dot com

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Speaker 1: bubble burst, I feel like we might see an AI

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Speaker 1: thing where they try to replace all the jobs with

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Speaker 1: AI and it does an incredibly shitty job, and then

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Speaker 1: they somehow use that catastrophe to then you know, hire

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Speaker 1: fewer people back.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, well that's always the name of the game.

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Speaker 2: It is finding an excuse to devalue to it's kind

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Speaker 2: of disconnect workers from their labor, or to hide the workers.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: AI is great at making things look like they're appearing automatically,

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Speaker 2: you know, like from a replicator. But there's tons of

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Speaker 2: people that tagged all the data for the AI. There's

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Speaker 2: tons of children who went into caves to get the

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Speaker 2: rare earth metals to make the processors to have the AI.

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Speaker 2: There's the cobalt that they're getting from the rivers. It's

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Speaker 2: like the amount of human labor and suffering that goes

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Speaker 2: into the a chat JPT three response is immense. It's

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Speaker 2: just it's just camouflage. It's just further more layers away.

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Speaker 2: It's like, you know, the dumb waiter. It's like, no, no,

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Speaker 2: the slaves were still there making the food and huffing

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Speaker 2: and puffing the stuff. We don't want to see that.

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Speaker 2: We do always see that, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I mean Thomas Jefferson, what a kind man.

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Speaker 3: He's like, I'm going to spare everyone, you know, the

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Speaker 3: tragedy of having to look at the fact that I

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Speaker 3: rely on chattel slavery.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but how is that?

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Speaker 3: How's your dinner?

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Speaker 2: How's your magic? Okay? All right?

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Speaker 1: They were serving Kraft mac and cheese, said his dinners. Sure,

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Speaker 1: what what is something you think is underrated?

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Speaker 2: Right now? At least I'm trying to think this way.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I really believe it, but I'll

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Speaker 2: say it like I do. I think that the human

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Speaker 2: capacity for change is underrated.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: What I'm starting to think is like I've been looking

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Speaker 2: at all the kind of techno solutionists climate change and

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Speaker 2: policies and this and that, and I'm like, oh, fuck man,

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Speaker 2: none of these look like they're so reasonable to me,

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Speaker 2: Like we're gonna throw sulfur dioxide in the space, or

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Speaker 2: you know, iron filings in the ocean, or get special

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Speaker 2: plankton regenerators and and but but I'm starting to think that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in my own experience, I've had sometimes sudden

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Speaker 2: rapid transformation where I see the whole thing, everything without

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Speaker 2: acid or anything. I just like, whoa, it all looks

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Speaker 2: different to me now, and I start moving through the

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Speaker 2: world differently, and I feel like our best, our last

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Speaker 2: best chance for sustainable survival is some kind of almost

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Speaker 2: like a global human mind shift that people would just

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Speaker 2: go whoa, what were we tripping on here? And change

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Speaker 2: the way they live. It's like, oh, I want to

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Speaker 2: make friends with my neighbors. I don't need to consume

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Speaker 2: all this shit. I'm not driving to work. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: work right here. That that that that that kind of

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Speaker 2: flip would would change everything. So and I do. I

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Speaker 2: think especially when you look at the tech bros. You

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Speaker 2: think that, you know, human beings are the problem and

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Speaker 2: technology is the solution, and they're going to create a

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Speaker 2: new stack or a new this, or re educate us

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Speaker 2: and all that. It's like, no, we are not the problem.

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Speaker 2: We are the We are the solution. You know, these

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Speaker 2: these systems are the problem. And I'm just trying to

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Speaker 2: kind of help people see that we are underestimating our

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Speaker 2: own capacity as humans to behave our way into a

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Speaker 2: different reality.

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Speaker 3: M Yeah, because I mean I think like the pandemic

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Speaker 3: felt like the closest I've seen to people having that moment,

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Speaker 3: like we talk about that on the show, where like

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Speaker 3: once the toil of it all slows down for a second,

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Speaker 3: people were able to be.

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Speaker 2: Like, wait, what the fuck are what the fuck is this?

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Speaker 3: Like this is fucked up? And then suddenly it's like

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Speaker 3: I get back to fucking work. I fucking think about

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Speaker 3: what the what what the exit strategy could be from

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Speaker 3: this version of like working for the economy rather than

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Speaker 3: the economy working for people. But yeah, like I I

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Speaker 3: hope to see something like that. I mean, I feel like,

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Speaker 3: you know, as like organized labor becomes more and more,

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Speaker 3: you know, as is more ascendant, that people are like

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Speaker 3: in their own way incrementally beginning to sort of shed

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Speaker 3: at least at the very least what they believe is

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Speaker 3: owed to them, right, And yeah, that may be opening

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Speaker 3: like a much more much larger door for some from

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Speaker 3: for bigger changes, for sure, I hope.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, I'm just so tired of like fighting against

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Speaker 2: those system and the man and fighting against the corporation

403
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Speaker 2: and all. And it's like, you know, fuck them all.

404
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Speaker 2: If if if we borrow stuff from our neighbors, that's

405
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Speaker 2: the best protest against Walmart and home Depot and everybody else.

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Speaker 2: You know, you have one lawnmower on the block, You

407
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Speaker 2: borrow a drill from Bob instead of buying another renewable,

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Speaker 2: rechargeable you know, piece of craft that you're going to

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Speaker 2: put in the garage. You know, it's it's it's like

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Speaker 2: pretty easy. And I know this is how you know,

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Speaker 2: middle and upper middle class people can respond. But you know,

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Speaker 2: those middle and upper middle class people are kind of

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Speaker 2: the ones responsible for whatever happens. You know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: you're not going to be asking you know, the the

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Speaker 2: oh the ten million, you know Pakistanis who are up

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Speaker 2: to their waist and climate change water. It's like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you guys have to change something, you know, say no,

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Speaker 2: they just got to try to water you guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, all right, let's take a quick break

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Speaker 1: and we'll come come back and kind of dig in

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Speaker 1: a little bit more to the new book.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back. And we're back. And as we

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Speaker 2: were talking about, so so the book's such a different

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Speaker 2: we have. We are in a different time space, time continuum.

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Speaker 2: And the listeners, because you know, for us that break

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Speaker 2: was like three seconds long. Then we're in a different

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Speaker 2: time continuum. They've got to catch up ourselves, all right.

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Speaker 2: We tell that.

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Speaker 1: We tell them that to you know, feel final, to

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Speaker 1: identify with us. We tell them that we keep it

431
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: real time. We are sit there and.

432
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: All right, so say come back, all right, you can

433
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 2: start joking.

434
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 1: So, so your book opens, You've been asked to come

435
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: out and speak to a bunch of super wealthy people.

436
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 1: And it's not really like a conference or is it

437
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 1: a conference. It's like just a gathering of the wealthy,

438
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 1: you know, in.

439
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: All honestly, I'll tell you what it really was. I mean,

440
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: we're amongst friends, right, No one talk okay, nobody nobody, good,

441
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 2: good good? All right? What's on satellite? So what could

442
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: they do? Musk is secretly listening. It's probably somehow related

443
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 2: to starlink or something. But no, but this was aessed

444
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: with me. I thought I was doing a talk, right,

445
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: that they were inviting me, and I get invited to

446
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 2: kind of do this kind of intellectual dominatrix act. Basically,

447
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: you know, they bring out right this leftist, a narco syndicalist,

448
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: cyberpunk asshole, you know, to speak to bankers and tech

449
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 2: bros and say, you guys are fucked up, You're doing

450
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: the wrong thing. Stop stop externalizing your harm, you know,

451
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: and they, oh, thank you, sir, May I please have another?

452
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: You know, And they do that for a little while

453
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: and then they just, you know, oh, we had rush

454
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 2: cof because you know, we're cool and we can take it.

455
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: And then they go back to doing whatever they were

456
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 2: doing before anyway, you know, and maybe take some of

457
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: my language and throw it on onto the brestle. So

458
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: it looks like that. So I thought it was one

459
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: of those, but then it turned out to be this thing,

460
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 2: and I didn't I didn't realize it until after. I mean,

461
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 2: I thought I was I was getting ready to go

462
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: on stage. I thought I was in a green room

463
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: and they were gonna come in with a little they

464
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 2: bring a little clip on mike and they put you out.

465
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: But instead they brought in these five guys who sat

466
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: around this table to talk to me. Now, the people

467
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 2: think as I told the story that oh, the whole

468
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: thing was for this five guys. No, the whole thing

469
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: wasn't for this five guys. The whole thing was some

470
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 2: really wealthy people technology hedge fund thing run by one

471
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: of those big places that does these things, and they

472
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: invited out like fifty or one hundred of their best

473
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: multimillionaire billionaire clients and family fund people to like a

474
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: weekend at a resort with a bunch of like I

475
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: was like the only one like me. There was like

476
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: a celebrity chef. There was a PGA golf pro. There

477
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: was a guy who did tennis swings. There was like

478
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: a like one of those painter guys, like the guy

479
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 2: with the curly hair who died. One of those kind

480
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: of guys was there. Yeah, and right there was like

481
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: a tontric massage person, so The idea was they got

482
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: they got a menu of right, and then it was like, oh,

483
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: you know Wednesday from twelve, you know to one, you

484
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: could learn to make an omelet with the famous chef,

485
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 2: learn to pluck a guitar with you know, Kenny Loggins

486
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: or whatever, or you know, do that, or you know,

487
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: spend an hour with you know mits, you know, top

488
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: ten futurists through Nuggus Rush Cooff. And so five of

489
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: those dudes decided, oh we'll do rush cough right. So

490
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: that was sort of what the premise of They came

491
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: in and I thought, I'm doing a talk and they

492
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: just want to sit around and ask me questions. So

493
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: it started out like innocently like bitcoiner ethereum, where should

494
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: we bet on? Or augmented reality or virtual reality you know,

495
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: or or you know, whole language models or real language model,

496
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: you know, all these kind of binary questions of which

497
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 2: I'm the person you don't ask that. Actually I'm always

498
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: right about the shape of the thing, but always wrong

499
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: with the brand like this. Before your time, I was

500
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: like Beta max right, not VHF. You know, I'm like

501
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 2: copy of serves better than AOL. It's gonna sick, but

502
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: you knew that like home video was going to revolution, right,

503
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: you just didn't know.

504
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: You thought it was gonna be Beta Max, which a

505
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize, Like in retrospect, Beta max

506
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: is like we when I worked at ABC News, we

507
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: worked with Beta Max because it is a better product.

508
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't degrade, it's much easier to work with, and

509
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: rewind and like move around with and better.

510
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: It's just bigger, it's better. And also it goes over

511
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: the tape head faster, so there's more tape per frame.

512
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: You know, there's more data in it because but there

513
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: were two problems with Beta Max. One they didn't give

514
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: their stuff to the porn industry, which VHS did. And

515
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: two the VHS, I'm super slow. You could do like

516
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: a six hour tape and get a whole you know,

517
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: you can get two NFL games, you know, if you're

518
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 2: gone for the day, you can get the whole thing.

519
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: And so you know, shitty quality tended to win. Like

520
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: AOL look at them, yay AOL Right that they'd worked

521
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: for a while. So anyway, they asked me all those

522
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: and then finally, you know, I'm answering those as best

523
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: I can, and then they get to like Alaska or

524
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: New Zealand, you know where should I put my bunker?

525
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 2: And I decided I put on my I don't know

526
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: what court Jester tweak the rich, which is what I

527
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: do my Dominatrix hat. So I'm like, okay, so you

528
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: got your bunker. And the one of them was showing

529
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 2: me the plans for his bunker and it's like, it's

530
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 2: got this heated swimming pool. I'm like, oh, you know,

531
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: there's a guy up the hill from me who's got

532
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: a heated swimming pool and there's always a truck in

533
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: front of his house with like a new filter, new

534
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 2: heating element. How are you gonna get like parts for

535
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: that heated pool after the apocalypse? He like opens just

536
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 2: little moleskin book parts for heated pool. It's all right.

537
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: These guys are.

538
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: Really like any other Brainbusters Rush Coff exactly. So then

539
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: I was asking them about how to you know, didn't

540
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 2: you guys see the Twilight episode, Twilight Zone episode where

541
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: that people have the bunker and everyone's banging on it.

542
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: How are you gonna protect your bunker from the likes

543
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: of us who don't have a bunker. And that's when

544
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, well, you know, we got navy seals

545
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: on call mine or you know, standing by a juiced

546
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 2: up helicopter that's say idling and ready to you know,

547
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: go at any minute. Like okay, so you've got navy

548
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: seals coming to your to your island. I didn't ask

549
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 2: why you know it's not why isn't it Army Rangers?

550
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: I mean sure, didn't you see the market Mark movie

551
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: Army Rangers? Are like, yeah, that's on zero dark thirty. Yeah,

552
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: that was good. I want them.

553
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 7: I want them protecting. Thank you for some of those guys.

554
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 7: They are like they're going off on missions. I don't

555
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 7: want mission people. I want protecting big protecting British men.

556
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 7: But anyway, so, how how are you going to pay

557
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 7: your navy seals? They're like, oh, what, we've got billions

558
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 7: of dollars. No, after your money is worthless.

559
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: After the electromagnetic pulse or the or the the you

560
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: know whatever, the atomic war, the climate event, your moneys were,

561
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: how are you going to pay them to And they're again,

562
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: I didn't really think of that. And then they're like

563
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: going into crazy stuff like well what if I'm the

564
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: only person who knows the combination to the safe where

565
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: we keep the food. Wow, Navy seals, they've have got

566
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: no experience getting and getting information out. You're gonna get

567
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: water boarded from here to the end of your life.

568
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: I mean, that's your your apocalypse is not but or

569
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: they were talking about having implants and everybody that could

570
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: also be used as kind of electric shocks that people

571
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: are doing wrong, things like Navy seals are gonna go. Really,

572
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: they're gonna like that. So I was just amazed that

573
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: these guys, right, they're smarter than us, Right, they own

574
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: these big companies, they're billionaires, they're supposedly smarter, but they're

575
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: so dumb. They're they're they're so panicked. And and that

576
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: was really what maybe want to them go write a

577
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: whole book or think about this longer, because it's basically,

578
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: here are the richest, most powerful men I'd ever been with,

579
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: yet they feel, you know, utterly powerless to influence the future.

580
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: The best they can do is predict the inevitable event

581
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: and then prepare for that, so they don't think of

582
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: the future as this thing we co create. This future

583
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: is this inevitability that you then build for. And that's

584
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: and that and and the idea the hubris. To think

585
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: that they can build a technology or a spaceship or

586
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: a metaverse or a bunker and quite literally leave humanity

587
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: behind was was crazy. But but what I realized, and

588
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: this was the thing, this was the techy nightmare of it,

589
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: was that it wasn't just as I always thought. It

590
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: wasn't just capitalism. It wasn't just oh, look they came

591
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: to my beautiful net Wired magazine announce an attention economy

592
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: and then use the net to abuse people and make

593
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: sticky websites and surveillance and all that. No, it's that

594
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: these kind of there's a there's a tech pro psychology

595
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: that kind of came from the beginning, which was about

596
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: getting away from people. And I realized they weren't. You know,

597
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: the climate change was not the reason why they were

598
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: building their bunkers. Climate change was the excuse they're using

599
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: to justify building these these you know, solo paradises. The

600
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: excuses they have for going to live on Mars away

601
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: from everybody else, or to build you know, robot sex

602
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: slaves instead of real people. You know, they want that

603
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: that that this is not the nightmare for them, This

604
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: is the dream.

605
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there does seem to be a fantasy about it,

606
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: rather than like they love thinking about this. It's like

607
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: a it's a I mean, I think everybody kind of

608
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: does at this point. Just I think for a lot

609
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: of people, the dream of the apocalypse is like I

610
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: don't have to go to work, like, you know, like

611
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: because you know, it's the thing that people have said

612
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: that you know, it's easier to imagine the end of

613
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: the world than the end of capitalism, and like, so,

614
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: how do I get out of this system that dehumanizes me.

615
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: Let's just go with the zombie apocalypse because I can't

616
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: picture anything else. Yeah, but it for them, it's the

617
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: same thing, but but in a different way. It allows

618
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: them to have the ultimate kind of control, the ultimate

619
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: blank slate where they can build their own society, which

620
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: seems to be what they like. You describe it as

621
00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: the mindset that is sort of epidemic. And yeah, Silicon Valley,

622
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: which is kind.

623
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: Of like a colonial urge. I mean, it's a colonial

624
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: urge where just like you know, even it was it

625
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: was Hobbes that told the British East India Trading Company

626
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: people when they were coming to the Americas that you

627
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: don't have to treat the humans there as human. They're

628
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: not human. They're kind of one with the land. They're

629
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: more like animals or trees or shrubs or something. They're

630
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: not good Christian humans. They're little brown people. So you

631
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: can enslave them and kill them and what don't think

632
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: of them. It's think of the New World as as

633
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: as a clean slate as you're working like x nilo,

634
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: as if from nothing, and that's the way the tech

635
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: pros think of it. So, yeah, going to the dark

636
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: side of the moon, going to Mars, going with somewhere

637
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: like that, or seasteading, right, putting out all these little

638
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: rafts into the ocean, and make your own nation. It's

639
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: kind of like the little rascals when they'd make their

640
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: little clubhouse, like no girls allowed. Right, I'm gonna make

641
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: my own place with my own roles, and I can

642
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: clone and I can affects with teenagers and know whatever

643
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: I want because I make my own laws, you know,

644
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: self sovereign. I'm a self sovereign individual in my own

645
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: crypto currency and my NFT based society. It's like okay,

646
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: you know, and that's the problem with you know, they

647
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: got plucked out of college when they're freshmen right by VCS.

648
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: They didn't take enough light, right know, they.

649
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: Didn't even finish intro to philosophy exactly, Like, yeah, you

650
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: started too soon.

651
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, like the guys in there's this place called Neome.

652
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard about that one in Saudi Arabia.

653
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: It's this giant, multi billion dollar city they want to build.

654
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: It's like a mile wide and one hundred miles long

655
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: and some part of the desert that they think is

656
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: going to be protected from climate change. For some weird reason,

657
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: They've hired like Hollywood studio chiefs and architects and and

658
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: and agricultural specialists to build this thing, this perfectly high tech,

659
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 2: modern like Dubai like renewable city that's going to be

660
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: totally sustainable and perfect. The problem was there were these

661
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: twenty thousand Bedouins living back and forth on that land

662
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: sustainably for the last what like five thousand years, Right,

663
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: we just gotta get rid of those twenty thousand sustainable

664
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 2: exactly how to survive the PLoP down our sustainable you know,

665
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: software solution stack. So they got that there are these

666
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: other ones.

667
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: In sol pollutes the hell out of the earth and

668
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: makes it a worse but like more likely the apocalypse

669
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: more likely?

670
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 2: Right, Well, they externalized the pollution, right, It's like it's

671
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: all run with microprocessors and sensors and solar this and that.

672
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: But where did you get the solar panels? Where did

673
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: you get the rare earth metals for them? Where they

674
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: never look at what happens before and what happens after.

675
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: They stay right, you know, in their little in their

676
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: little bubble. It's like three D Oh, the three D

677
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 2: printers are going to save the economy. It's like, who's

678
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: making the three D printers? Where are we getting the

679
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 2: plastic goop that we stick in the three D printers?

680
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: You know, remember when daisy wheel printers and printers came around,

681
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: Then we got every time there's a new generation of printer,

682
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: you'd see printers on the curves of the sidewalks of

683
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: New York, right, get replaced. It's like, no, it doesn't,

684
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: it doesn't quite work like that. But yeah, this this

685
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: mindset is the idea that with really that you can

686
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: earn enough money to escape the the to escape the

687
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: damage that you're creating by earning money in that way,

688
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: or that you can build enough technology to get away

689
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: from the externalized harm created by building that technology, so

690
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: you you have you know, even you look at it

691
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: in the real world, like, uh, you've got all these

692
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: apps that are leading like teenage girls to like cut

693
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 2: themselves and hate themselves and vomit and be depressed and

694
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: all that. It's like, Oh, don't worry, we have another

695
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 2: app that's gonna solve the problem with that app. Here's

696
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: a wellness app and a mindfulness app. And you know,

697
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: it's like, good luck with that, right, You're just adding

698
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 2: on more and more, more and more screen time into people.

699
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 3: Because it's also too like one thing that you point out,

700
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: it's just sort of this insatiable urge, like especially with

701
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: the way our economy is set up, is to like

702
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 3: just keep iterating no matter if it doesn't make sense

703
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 3: or not. It's like like you say, like just go

704
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 3: meta on something and keep going meta. So there's another

705
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: thing to hype up to get more capital into the

706
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: stock market, and it's always ignoring like this simple truth,

707
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 3: which is like but what if you like, what if

708
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: you actually reckoned with what what we're doing right now

709
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 3: rather than like, well, the solution to pollution is this

710
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: pollution credit that you can now get and we're selling

711
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: it on this exchange, and you can also invest in

712
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: this exchange I've created. And it's never about sort of

713
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: like dialing it back. It's always just about how are

714
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: we going to just keep adding and piling on to

715
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 3: kind of you know, to feed this insatiable hunger, to

716
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: keep just extracting and expanding.

717
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: Right, that's partly because they understand time purely it as

718
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 2: forward motion, as progress, as linear. And there's great things

719
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 2: about linear time, you know, and great things about progress

720
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: and understanding history and a future. But if you don't

721
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: have any kind of circular sensibility, if you don't understand

722
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,959
Speaker 2: anything about, you know, how soil regenerates, how people learn,

723
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: how societies go through cycles, if you have none of

724
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: that available to you, then all you can do is

725
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: like you put your blinders on and move and move forward, forward, forward. So, right,

726
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: so you start with something like central currency, which we

727
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: don't have to go into why why are where that

728
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 2: that happened? But central currency is basically one kind of

729
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: currency that we use, which is interest bearing. So because

730
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: we use central currency as the one currency, our economy

731
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: has to grow. Right, You've got to pay back the

732
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 2: bankers every time money is issued, it's issued in interest

733
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: to pay for the It's expensive, mind, So where do

734
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 2: you get the more money? You need your economy to grow.

735
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: And once you need your economy to grow, well, then

736
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: you need it to grow faster tomorrow than it did

737
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: today and faster the day after that. So all these dudes,

738
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: everyone's looking for exponential growth, and you're right. You don't

739
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: get that just by selling more pizzas. You could only

740
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: sell there's only so many mouths. What you do is

741
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: that rather than you know, you, rather than sell pizzas,

742
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: you buy stock in the pizza company. All right, Now,

743
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: I got stock, and I just put in some money,

744
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: and that's gonna grow as long as the pizza rea grows.

745
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: It's fine. If the stock doesn't grow fast enough, I'm

746
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: gonna buy a derivative of that stock, which is like

747
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: I could buy the pizza stock three months in the future.

748
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: So now I've compressed all that time, and yay, now

749
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: that's not enough. I can get a derivative of the derivative,

750
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 2: and so on and so on. You just keep going

751
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: meta on the thing before. That's that's basically that's what

752
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: financialization is. But financialization now is way bigger than reality. Right,

753
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: the derivatives exchange of the New York Stock Exchange. They

754
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: had the New York Stock Exchange, and they had a

755
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: derivatives exchange. Derivatives Exchange got so big it actually purchased

756
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: the New York Stock Exchange. Right, So it's like the

757
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: tail eight the dog. It didn't wag it, it consumed it, right,

758
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: and it's going to and why where does that leave reality?

759
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: That's how you get you know, mortgage crises and all

760
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: this other stuff. So you got that going on in finance,

761
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 2: and then the same thing going on in technology, where

762
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: you've got you know, businesses, and then businesses get aggregated

763
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: by this website, and then that website aggregates the aggregators

764
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: and so on and so on. You get Mark Zuckerberg

765
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 2: going from Web one to Web two. Right. Web one

766
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: was websites, Web two is Facebook. He plays out Facebook.

767
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: Where does he go after that? Web three?

768
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: You know, literally the name of his company do meta Meta.

769
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: Literally meta saying we can just keep going meta on

770
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: whatever was before. But Meta isn't isn't real. Meta is

771
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: getting further and further away from from terra firma, from

772
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: from the real world, and further and further away from

773
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: the externalities, meaning the harms that are created by these businesses.

774
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: You go to Facebook, the campus is gorgeous, and they

775
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: got a great coffee there. It's like not Pietez, it's

776
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 2: another one. It's like really good. But if you look

777
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: on the edge of campus, there's a tent fill there

778
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: of the people who've been improplished by the very same companies.

779
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take one more break and we'll

780
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 1: come back and kind of keep keep digging in here.

781
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: And we're back, and just to kind of summarize what

782
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 1: we were talking about before, like this, because I did

783
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: find the book ultimately hopeful, because like it really clarified

784
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: this idea that I think we all assume that there's

785
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 1: something happening with resources and the earth that is inevitably

786
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: leading toward a climate apocalypse. And you talk about how

787
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: that assumption is purely based on like their mindset of

788
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: like this extractive kind of their addiction to tenx growth

789
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: is really what's driving the inevitable move towards a unsustainable

790
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: world and climate. And like if you if people are able,

791
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: if like the zeitgeist is able to switch over to

792
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: this more these more circular economic models. We have enough water,

793
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: we have enough resources. That's what we've found over the

794
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: past Decadeyeah, you know, but it's.

795
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: Hard, you know. I mean I get that it's hard,

796
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: you know. And I talk to you know, middle class

797
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: people and they're like, yeah, I'll do the kind of

798
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: things you're saying. Once I've got like a million dollars

799
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: in my four oh one k plan, right then I'll stop.

800
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 2: Or just I just need to work two more years

801
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: at this bad job that I know is just drawing

802
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: the planet and then I can stop. And when I

803
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: listen to them, they sound like addicts, you know, where

804
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: it's like, dude, I just got a drink until this

805
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 2: project is done, just until this, just until the next thing.

806
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: And there is no it actually it's it's now, It

807
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: really is now. There is there is no next first,

808
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: there's no next big thing that's gonna say. I was

809
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: talking to a billionaire who says, Oh, I've got this

810
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: carbon capture device. We're gonna put it right on the

811
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 2: back of the car and right on the back of

812
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: the truck and it's gonna suck the carbon out so

813
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 2: we don't even have to go to EV's Like, oh good,

814
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 2: the fuck luck with that, you know, or oh eco

815
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 2: city thing, it's like a pill and you drop it

816
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: into the water and the city's going to grow out

817
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 2: of it. That's you know, magical, crypto perfect city for

818
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: children and regenerative agriculture, and there's a stack for this

819
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: and a stack there's no thing. But it's hard to

820
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: tell people like right now, how do they start?

821
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 7: You know?

822
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: And that for me, if we talk about it and

823
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: and I've given up with this, if we talk about

824
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: it as oh, a new economic system or a thing,

825
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: then they're like, oh, no, it's a socialist or something.

826
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, you know. And if we could sort

827
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: of take the ism off socialism and just make it

828
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: like social social like and it's interesting, you end up

829
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: in the same place, but you win the argument. So

830
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: I do that thing about, you know, instead of buying

831
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: a drill from home minimum viable product a drill from

832
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: home depot and making all this waste and using it once,

833
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: go to Bob's house, knock on Bob's door and say, Bob,

834
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: can I borrow your drill? Right? And Bob is gonna

835
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: bring a big, thick, matterfucking drill that plugs in the

836
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: wall the way God intended. And he's gonna come over

837
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: and say, Doug, you're a fucking nerd. You don't know

838
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: where to you don't know where to find a stud.

839
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: I'm coming over and drill in the whole for you. Right,

840
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: He's gonna make the hole. It's gonna be great. But

841
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: then like three days later, that weekend, I'm supposed to

842
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 2: have a barbecue at my house. Bob's gonna smell the barbecue,

843
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: and Bob's gonna think, wait a minute. I went over

844
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: and helped Doug drill a hole in the wall, and

845
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: he didn't invite me over to the barbecue. So now

846
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to invite Bob over. All right, So

847
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: I invite Bob to the barbecue. That's fine, and Bob

848
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: turns I know. It turns out he's nice and his

849
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: wife is kind of nice, and his kids are cool,

850
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: and they're like, all right, well that's so bad. But

851
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: now the other neighbors smell the barbecue and they're like,

852
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why is Doug inviting Bob to the

853
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: barbecue and not us. Before long, we're gonna have a

854
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: block party and everybody's gonna be having fun at this barbecue. Right,

855
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: that's the nightmare, Right, that's the downside the brand thing.

856
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: But now that we're all together and talking, how did

857
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: we meet? Well, you know, I borrowed Bob's drill. Now

858
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: people on the block say, you know, I wonder I

859
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: was gonna need a new lawnmower. But instead of me

860
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: buying a new lawnmower, what if we just like use

861
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: two or three lawnmowers for the whole block and we

862
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: just share the ones we have because I don't use

863
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: it more than a couple hours a week. So now

864
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 2: we're buying less lawnmowers, buying less drills, and we have

865
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 2: more money to start doing stuff. I'm teaching Bob's kid

866
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 2: algebra because I'm paying him back for the favor that

867
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: he gave me, and it's all working out. Someone invariably

868
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: gets up when I do that in a talk and says, well, yeah,

869
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 2: but what about the drill company? Yeah, bad for sale?

870
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 2: What about right, and the person who was the job

871
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: at the drill company and the old lady? Someone said,

872
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 2: what about the old lady who has a pension fund

873
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: that's dependent on the stock and the drill company for

874
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: her to uh for her to survive it's like, well,

875
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: luckily we're going to be taking care of that old

876
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: lady because now we have a neighborhood, and hopefully we're

877
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 2: gonna wind this down. That's why we're not doing it

878
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: in revolution. I'm not saying everybody today stop buying drill, right,

879
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: it's not going to work like that. But slowly and surely,

880
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: as we replace some of that activity, the power of

881
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: these giant mega corporations kind of diminishes. This huge, you know,

882
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 2: ridiculous global supply chains end up kind of shrinking down,

883
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: and we slowly kind of turn the corner towards something

884
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: more social, more circular, more on the ground. We take

885
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: some of the weight off government and social service programs

886
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: to take care of us, We take some of the

887
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: weight off the climate, off the economy, and all that stuff.

888
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 2: All at the same time. The next what I meant

889
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: by you know, I have more hope in people that

890
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: people could kind of flip and go, oh this is fun. Right, Yeah,

891
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: I'm okay with this.

892
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: What if life was actually fun? Like that's kind of

893
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: a crazy idea.

894
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 2: But how many drills do I have? But I need drills?

895
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: That's drills.

896
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: There's this David Wayne movie the ten where like he

897
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: and his native or two characters like two neighbors get

898
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: in a cat scan buying frenzy where they just like

899
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: they get competitive about.

900
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 2: Buying cat scans.

901
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: Anyways, I don't know why I mean, but yeah, you

902
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: like just to the point of the socializing you reference

903
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: a couple times in the book, like these powerful, unconscious

904
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: connective forces that are happening at the level of like

905
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: mirror neurons, right, and you also mentioned that like the powerful,

906
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: the more powerful people get, the less likely they are

907
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: to have this exchange to engage in the mirroring of others.

908
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: So it almost feels like that we're being delivered from

909
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: this very powerful, you know, way that we become part

910
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: of a network connected to other people, made up of

911
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: other people, Like that's very natural, very human, like how

912
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: humanity got this far. We're being delivered from that by

913
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,240
Speaker 1: these powerful people who are like mapping onto us. They're

914
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: weird thing that is like that doesn't value that, that

915
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: doesn't see the intrinsic value of that, and it's making

916
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: us miserable, right yeah, yeah.

917
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the way like a Marshall McClue in

918
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: or somebody a media theorist would look at it is

919
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: what you're talking about are the values of the television age. Right,

920
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: We got television, and we use television to paint pictures

921
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: of the world that made us feel inadequate about where

922
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 2: we are that we need to get that other thing.

923
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 6: Right.

924
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: The television is sort of what put us in competition

925
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 2: with each other and kind of desocialized us because the less,

926
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 2: you know, the less satisfied people were, the more likely

927
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: they were to go buy stuff. So television was this

928
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: really terrific influencing machine and that supported markets and companies

929
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: and consumption and all that. And now we've moved into

930
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 2: a digital age and we're kind of using that same

931
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 2: industrial age television era. Oh, let's use it to influence

932
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: people and get them to buy more stuff and all that.

933
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 2: And it's like, well, maybe that's not the digital thing.

934
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not sustainable. It's too when a digital

935
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 2: algorithm can can reconfigure itself in real time to influence

936
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: your behavior, it's like, this isn't gonna work anymore. This

937
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: isn't just gonna get people to buy forward cars, right,

938
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: because people don't even have jobs at ford that where

939
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 2: they can afford a ford Car. It's like this is

940
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: this is flipped in a different place. So I think

941
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 2: we have to stop kind of using media to get

942
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: people to do stuff and start looking at using media

943
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 2: and technology to provide people, you know, some of what

944
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,439
Speaker 2: some of what they need, which is it's a it's

945
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 2: a big it's a it's a big mind shift, but

946
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: you know what, you know what I mean, this is

947
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: like a very different media environment that this stuff works

948
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 2: differently than industrial age stuff. We're not just coaxing people.

949
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 2: It's if television was more like social media, which is

950
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: more like say the missionaries, they go to a population

951
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 2: and they propagandize them, They get them to worship the

952
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: new God, and they do a lot of intelligence on them.

953
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 2: And then the missionaries send the intelligence back to the crown.

954
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 2: And who comes next the conquistadors. Right, they know how

955
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 2: to data population works. They've got the intels, they go

956
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: in and they get them. That's kind of what the

957
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 2: AIS and the digital things are. They're the conquistadors not

958
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 2: just coming to influence us, but coming to annihilate and

959
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 2: replace us. And that's uh, wait a minute, that's not

960
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 2: that's not gonna work. So that's why we have to

961
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 2: flip the script and say, well, what you how can

962
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: they how can they serve us instead? And this technology

963
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: could you know I once you start saying wait a minute,

964
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: once you get out of the framework of how do

965
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: we retrain people for better jobs once the ais come,

966
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 2: and start thinking instead, how do we retrain people for

967
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: lives of meaning and pleasure and leisure? And it's like, ooh,

968
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 2: that would be that be.

969
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 3: Kind of fun, right, because I feel like so much

970
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 3: talk even like with like universal basic income, it's always

971
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 3: just like offset the damage that tech innovation is gonna do.

972
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 3: It's not because humans like we just because we're so productive,

973
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 3: we should begin shifting to something that resembles more like

974
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 3: leisure time or family, like, right, the ability to just

975
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 3: commune with nature because you want to. It's always like, well, yeah, man,

976
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: when this tech comes online, everybody's fucked. So the only

977
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 3: way we can keep them at bay is by giving

978
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 3: them like a pittance every fucking month. And that's universal

979
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 3: basic income. And it's always interesting to see, like in

980
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 3: your analysis, like a lot of these things that we

981
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 3: are we're getting preached to us by like these tech people.

982
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 3: It's always like it's never actually to solve anything. It's

983
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 3: it's a solution that is just it's it, but it's

984
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 3: a it's a new product packaged as a solution that

985
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 3: is never actually tended to address what's happening. So we're

986
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 3: in this snow, but like this constant, like this never

987
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 3: ending thing that only leads to increased like to your point,

988
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 3: depleting our resources, you know, degrading the environment. Which for them,

989
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 3: it's like, well that's the end game is then it's

990
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: gonna all break because I'm too good at capitalism, and

991
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 3: then I got to shoot the pores.

992
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 1: I know.

993
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 2: It's like for programmers who are so big on disrupting systems,

994
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 2: you think they would consider disrupting corporate capitalism. They would

995
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: consider something other than running to Morgan Stanley with every

996
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 2: new invention they have. But they're ultimately so reactionary. They're

997
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 2: so conservative they don't challenge the underlying assumptions that their

998
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 2: companies are based on. I'm going to go disrupt the

999
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: taxi market. I'm going to disrupt the book market, But

1000
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 2: what about disrupting the market market asupting that with abundance?

1001
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 2: You know, It's like this is this is so much

1002
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: easier than writing another clue to make this current system,

1003
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: you know, churn another ten years while you look for

1004
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 2: a way out. And the other side, you know, like

1005
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 2: the Koch brother side of this thing. You know, those

1006
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 2: guys are the big climate deniers. If you go to

1007
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 2: an actual Koch Brothers conference, they all believe in climate change.

1008
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 2: They've got all this stuff on what's gonna happen and

1009
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 2: the methane gas and the this and the that. But

1010
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 2: their objective is, don't let us be the only ones

1011
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 2: who know what's happening so we can prepare for it,

1012
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: while the rest of society is is is told that

1013
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 2: this is a myth. Yeah, yeah, the very like elitist

1014
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 2: thinking that's happening. It's really cynical. Yeah, yeah, the mind

1015
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: and the more that that happens and the more paranoid

1016
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: people get, then they get into QAnon and five g

1017
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 2: Towers and the Great Reset and that COVID was here

1018
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 2: to reduce the population of the world. And you know,

1019
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: because I get it, it's comforting to believe there's like

1020
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: an Avengers style Doctor Evil super villain George Sorow's Jew,

1021
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: you know, who's who's controlling the world with his you know,

1022
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: from the Italian embassy with space lasers or something. But

1023
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: it's like, I know, however comforting that is. It's time

1024
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 2: to grow up and say, no, no, we are we

1025
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 2: are in charge here, We're actually this is much simpler.

1026
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: This is much simpler than it looks. The only time

1027
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: we really get into problems is when we're trying to

1028
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: operate at scale, you know, like Zuck or Musk or whoever.

1029
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: If you want to operate locally, like ninety nine point

1030
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: nine percent of us can operate locally, and we could,

1031
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: let's just dedicate one million people to thinking at scale,

1032
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 2: you know? Is that enough? Ten million people thinking at scale?

1033
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 2: It's like, let them go do that, so we could

1034
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: just take care of each other.

1035
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's like funny too because like for for

1036
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 3: all of like the ways I think we're just you know,

1037
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 3: propagandaized into thinking, oh, you know, there is no solute

1038
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 3: like the only solution is to just hit the fucking

1039
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 3: pedal harder and go through this rather than like slowing

1040
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 3: down or looking at it.

1041
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 2: Like.

1042
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 3: We have so many examples even in our recent history

1043
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: that shows that, like you know, like you you bring

1044
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 3: up the Greenwood District in Oklahoma, like black people were

1045
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 3: completely excluded from the mainstream American economy. So they figured

1046
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 3: out how to do it on their own outside of it,

1047
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 3: and it was something that was cooperative and was just like, well,

1048
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 3: if we only have us to rely on, and then like,

1049
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: let's make this work. And sure enough, it got to

1050
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 3: a point where it invited all this resentment that we

1051
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 3: had that race massacre.

1052
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 2: Right, well, because the whites were confused. Wait a minute,

1053
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: if these black people were cut off from the economy

1054
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 2: and they're not allowed to participate, why are they doing

1055
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 2: better than us?

1056
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 3: Right?

1057
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: Right, So they went in and killed them, right, that's right.

1058
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 2: But we got to look back at it and go, oh,

1059
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 2: they were doing better then that. The blacks are doing

1060
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 2: better because being cut off forced them into local, circular

1061
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: economic activity. They started relying on each other and yes,

1062
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 2: doing better. Now, do you need to be cut off? No,

1063
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: there's a balance, right, you shouldn't have to be completely

1064
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,919
Speaker 2: cut off either. But boy, oh boy, when you see

1065
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 2: a lesson like that, when you see the way American

1066
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 2: farmers got out of the depression, you know, through stuff

1067
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: that really looked like communism and got cooperative land ownership

1068
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 2: and local currencies, you realize what we need is a

1069
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 2: more balanced set of economic instruments, you know, different ways

1070
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 2: of operating where we're doing favors for each other doesn't

1071
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 2: look like wrong on some level. You know, people these days,

1072
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 2: where can we want to do a clean transaction? We'd

1073
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 2: rather have someone we don't know come in and clean

1074
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 2: our house for money. Then the neighbors kids are trying to,

1075
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: you know, right, do something.

1076
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, the I mean the dumbwaiter effect, which you've already

1077
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: made reference to, like the invention of the dumb waiter

1078
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: by Thomas Jefferson, which in you know, elementary school history

1079
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: classes is claimed to be.

1080
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,959
Speaker 2: Oh, he wanted to save the quote unquote.

1081
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: Servants at his house from having to walk up and

1082
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 1: down the stairs with heavy plates, and it's actually no,

1083
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: he wanted to hide the fact that he had human

1084
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: cost slaves behind the you know, hide it from people

1085
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: on a lower floor. There's this anecdote in the book

1086
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,479
Speaker 1: that really drives home like what we're up against. Where

1087
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: so it's the people assembling our iPhones for Apple are

1088
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: made to use this toxic fingerprint cleaning solution to make

1089
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: the new product, to just make sure there's absolutely no

1090
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: smudges on an iPhone when you open it in the box.

1091
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: When it comes out of the box, it is toxic.

1092
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: It poisons them, but they.

1093
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 2: Get premature babies come out of them and stuff. I mean,

1094
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 2: it's really bad but completely like.

1095
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: But it's such a good example also of the genius

1096
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:38,879
Speaker 1: of capitalism, as this like singularity, like you're erasing even

1097
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: the subliminal clues of the exploitation behind our most beloved products,

1098
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: so it doesn't even like enter into our minds like

1099
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: they're they're doing this like five levels deep thinking because

1100
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,280
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, the people like these Harvard

1101
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: educated people are like going to work for Apple and

1102
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: coming up that innovation like we have. Well, like what

1103
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: we found is that if they see the smudges, then

1104
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 1: like they start to become like get a vague sense

1105
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: of unease with the world.

1106
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 2: So it has to look like this perfect.

1107
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,439
Speaker 1: Gleaming cube that that was just like delivered down from

1108
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: on high and like with Amazon does it less artfully

1109
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: but like more blatantly. It is their entire business model

1110
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: to remove the workers at the store from our lives

1111
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: by replacing them with packages that just show up and

1112
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and they're not high like they

1113
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: have a company called the mechanical Turk named for like

1114
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: that that's a historical event where like a robot beat

1115
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: everyone at chess, but was really just a chess master

1116
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: in a like suit that was made to look like

1117
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: a robot. So like it's we're up against a lot

1118
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: of very complex things that like knows exactly what it's doing,

1119
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: that is really going out of its way to try

1120
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:04,959
Speaker 1: to deliver you from having the thoughts that you're talking

1121
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: about of like maybe I should like hang out with

1122
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: people in my neighborhood, Like maybe, you know, maybe maybe

1123
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: this isn't as simple as I want it to be.

1124
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: Maybe the thrill that I get from opening this box

1125
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: and having an iPhone there that looks like the object

1126
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: from two thousand and one, you know, like that that

1127
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: isn't a thrill that I should be pursuing. But they're

1128
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: working hard, but it does feel like we're getting further

1129
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: and further away from like just fully being absorbed by

1130
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: their bullshit. But I don't have a ton of evidence

1131
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: for that.

1132
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's why I try to write a

1133
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: book about them that makes us laugh at them, so

1134
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 2: you can see, Okay, if these are little nerd people

1135
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 2: who are scared of human beings. Then that's why they

1136
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 2: project onto us the fear of a fingerprint, the fear

1137
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: of knowing, you know, the fear of the people and

1138
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: the dirt and the women and the nature and the

1139
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 2: all that stuff. It's like, I get it, you know.

1140
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 2: And there are there are pills that can help us

1141
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: emotionally survive in a world where we don't have that

1142
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 2: human contact certain whatever SSRIs and antidepressants and all that.

1143
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: But there's also ones that are sort of encouraging complexity.

1144
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 2: There's all the new people out microdosing and trying mushroom

1145
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 2: therapy and doing other things. Although I'm still confused that

1146
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 2: you could take a fucking tech bro, send them down

1147
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: to South America and have them to do a bunch

1148
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: of ayahuasca and you would think it would bring their

1149
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 2: great reckoning and they go, oh, you know, I've got

1150
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 2: to reconnect with the world and the people and the thing.

1151
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 2: But it's like somewhere between their their ayahuasca trip and

1152
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: their their G five flight back to San Jose, they

1153
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 2: reverse engineer that the friggin' social network they've made is

1154
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: that solution.

1155
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, the product they're already working on is actually the thing. Right,

1156
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: if they can just find this one like tweak to

1157
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: the algorithm, that's actually what is going to right.

1158
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 2: But when their focus is on post humans rather than humans,

1159
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 2: which a lot of for a lot of them, it

1160
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 2: is right. You don't post humans don't have those fingerprints.

1161
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 2: Post humans don't have the the you know, the aborted fetuses.

1162
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 2: The posthumans are are this sort of idealized idea of

1163
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 2: the human, the kind of the tech bro idea of

1164
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 2: human as information as perfectly auto tuned soul liess you know, abstraction, right,

1165
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: which which I understand. I understand the yearning for that.

1166
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 2: You know, anybody who's fallen in love with an anime

1167
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 2: character knows what that is. But it's it's a stage, right,

1168
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: It's a stage of adolescents, not a fruitful place.

1169
01:00:58,960 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: For us to go.

1170
01:00:59,480 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 2: Stables.

1171
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesus well, I truly feel like, more than ever,

1172
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: this episode could go on for seven hours and we

1173
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,439
Speaker 1: could keep talking about this. This is so fascinating. Thank

1174
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: you so much for writing the book, and thanks for

1175
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: coming on show.

1176
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 2: Thank you for reading it. You know, people, people, even people.

1177
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 2: I'm happy that people buy my book, but I'm even

1178
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 2: more happy when they read it. You know, yeah, which

1179
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 2: is rare. It's a subset of a subfet right.

1180
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 3: It's not just like, Yo, you see what I got

1181
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 3: on my wall that got that new rush off? Yeah?

1182
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 2: Did you read it? Nah? Yeah, but I bet it's

1183
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 2: the introduction.

1184
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking on our wall, I have the dawn of

1185
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: everything over there, and I really appreciate it your your

1186
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 1: I think more people need to hear what they did

1187
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: to Pinker in that book.

1188
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 2: It's so great. He deserved every bit. Y yeah you did.

1189
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 3: And also yeah, just for listeners, you got to check

1190
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,919
Speaker 3: the I mean, like it's so expansive because, like I said,

1191
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 3: my sort of experience with the book was being like, Okay,

1192
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 3: we're gonna talk about bunkers, and for a second you do,

1193
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 3: but then again you sort of zoom out to really

1194
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 3: understand why it's it's the bunker. Isn't the fucking the bunker.

1195
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 3: It's just another manifestation of this thinking that is actually

1196
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 3: the such a destructive force right now and gets into

1197
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 3: everything from the momentum we've carried into like our our

1198
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 3: our perception of science and nature and you know, like

1199
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 3: returning to the womb using technology and things and all

1200
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 3: these other things. So it's a really great book, and yeah,

1201
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 3: encourage everybody to check it out because it's it doesn't disappoint,

1202
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 3: especially if you enjoyed this episode, which I'm sure you did.

1203
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 2: Free yourself, Free yourself of the bunker in your mind.

1204
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: Right, I'm just digging a hole in the mud in

1205
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: my backyard, and I think it's gonna suck, to be honest. Yeah,

1206
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: for my family, Yeah.

1207
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I told you. They just they just look like

1208
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 3: shallow graves.

1209
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 2: To be honest. But I'm sure your family is really

1210
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 2: encouraged by that.

1211
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: Dad's making a bunker, No worry, he's building a bike

1212
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: out of old bike out of old hangars. Yeah, that

1213
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: might be smoking at the same time. Good luck, Thank you, goode.

1214
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: Where can people find you?

1215
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: Follow you all that?

1216
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 6: Oh?

1217
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 2: Joh, don't follow me? But I mean I got tweeting,

1218
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 2: but I'm so over it.

1219
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: You know.

1220
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 2: The most people following me now are these little fake

1221
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 2: stripper accounts. Have you seen all these Oh yeah, it's

1222
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 2: like bot accounts, these bought but they're not even real

1223
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 2: real stripper accounts. They're like fake, they're bought stripper. It's like,

1224
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 2: what is that I'm trying to do? What do they want?

1225
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 6: Why?

1226
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 4: Why?

1227
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 2: Retweet me of all things, but whatever, retweet me no,

1228
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 2: come to uh uh buy this book, Survival of the

1229
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 2: Richest Escape Fantasy of the Tech Billionaires. Get it at

1230
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 2: your like local bookstore if you can, or your library

1231
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 2: or something. I got a podcast on my own called

1232
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 2: Team Human. You can check that out Team Human. Get it.

1233
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 2: We're on Team Human. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, I got

1234
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 2: a website rushcoff dot com. Or come actually play with me.

1235
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 2: I'm teaching. I started a new master's program at Queen's College,

1236
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: which is part of City University of New York. And

1237
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 2: we're just doing this kind of stuff. So if you

1238
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 2: want to get a master's in theory and media studies

1239
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 2: or tactical media, come and will and will and we'll

1240
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 2: play live.

1241
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 1: Amazing And is there a work of media that you've

1242
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: been enjoying, Well.

1243
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 2: You know what I'm really enjoying. Yeah. There's a woman

1244
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 2: named Niche Devno it's hard to say n e s

1245
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 2: e devn o d e v e n o t

1246
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 2: And she tweeted this thing about you know, test cREL.

1247
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 2: It's this word that's basically it's it's it's it's a

1248
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 2: word that means it's kind of the mindset. It's like

1249
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 2: techno utopianism and and uh life extension and effective altruism

1250
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 2: is this paper she wrote called testcrel Hallucinations Psychedelic and

1251
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 2: AI Hype as inequality Engines, And what she does is

1252
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 2: she compares the sort of the new psychedelic industry hype

1253
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 2: to the new AI industry hype and shows how they're

1254
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 2: kind of the same thing, and both of them are

1255
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: designed to do the same old thing to keep the

1256
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 2: poor down. And I was just like, dang, I really

1257
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: hadn't seen it's the same thing. What they're doing, what

1258
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 2: they're gonna do to psychedelics is the same thing that

1259
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 2: they did to the Internet in the nineties. They're about

1260
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 2: to do to psychedelics. Just watch Amazing Miles Where can

1261
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 2: people find you? What is the work of media you've

1262
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 2: been enjoying at Miles of Gray all over the place?

1263
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 3: Check Jack and I out on our basketball podcast Miles

1264
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 3: and Jack Got Mad Boosties. If you want to hear

1265
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 3: me talk about ninety day Fiance, you know something a

1266
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 3: little bit more elevated than the discussion we had talking

1267
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 3: about trash Reality Where I escape that's my bunker. Check

1268
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 3: out for twenty day fiance and the Good Thief where

1269
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 3: we talk about the Greek robin Hood who was kidnapping

1270
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 3: millionaires and doing some good old fashioned wealth re distribution.

1271
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 3: I love to see it. A tweet I like is

1272
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 3: from Mike Kaplan at Mike Kaplan m y Qkapla and

1273
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 3: who tweeted you never hear about people who are good

1274
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 3: to the bone, like to hear the bone hear more

1275
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 3: about them tweet.

1276
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying just anything from Jimmy Butler's new look

1277
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 1: with the Miami Heat yesterday at Media Day, and particularly

1278
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Speaker 1: whoever came up with the nickname ball out boy for that.

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Speaker 1: He came with an emo wig and said announced I'm

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Speaker 1: emo now, and.

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Speaker 2: Then I think when asked to which nickname for.

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Speaker 1: His new look was his favorite, he did have the

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Speaker 1: good taste to say ball out boy. He also had

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Speaker 1: like a bunch of facial piercings and stuff. It was

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Speaker 1: really a fun He's making media day actually interesting for

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Speaker 1: the first time. You can find me on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: Jack Underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: Daily Zeitgeist. We're at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We

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Speaker 1: have a Facebook fan page and a website Daily zei

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Speaker 1: guys dot comboy.

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Speaker 2: We post our episodes in our footnotes.

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Speaker 1: We link off to the information that we talked about

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Speaker 1: in today's episode, as well as the song that we

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Speaker 1: think you might enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Miles, what song do you think people might enjoy?

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Speaker 3: The Due Minahan Street Band, Brooklyn Band and I love

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Speaker 3: so much. They've got musicians from like L Michael's Affair,

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Speaker 3: who we've done, Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings, Anti

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Speaker 3: Ballast And this is a track that just something nice

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01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 3: and easy and just musical and funky to get you

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Speaker 3: into your week. And it's called Queen's Highway by the

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Speaker 3: minahand or Menahan Street Band. I don't know if I've

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Speaker 3: completely botched that pronunciation, but either way, check it out.

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Speaker 3: Queen's Highway.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, we will.

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Speaker 1: Link off to that in the footnote. The Daily zeis Guys,

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Speaker 1: a production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. That's gonna do it

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Speaker 1: for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell you

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Speaker 1: what's trending, and we'll talk to you all.

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Speaker 3: Bye bye