WEBVTT - #153 Jason Flom with Willie "Pete" Williams 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.120 This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:10.799 Network conference in twenty nineteen. On April fifth, nineteen eighty five, 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.399 a woman was exiting her car at a parking lot 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.520 just north of Atlanta when a man approached asking about 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.360 a woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.079 pulled a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.079 to a dead end, and proceeded. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.520 To rape her. After the attack, the victim went to 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.080 the hospital for a rape kit. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.200 With a well lit parking lot and over forty five 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:33.600 minutes with her attacker, she was able to put together 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:38.040 a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near identical incident 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.000 occurred along the same stretch of road. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:42.239 A man approached a woman in. 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.280 A parking lot asking for Carol, before using a threat 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.600 of violence to get her back into the car. However, 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.760 this time the victim was able to talk the attacker 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.240 into leaving before a rape occurred. The police showed this 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.000 would be victim the composite sketch, and it appeared there 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:02.640 was a serial rapist operating in the North Atlanta area. Then, 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.600 on April twenty eighth, Willie Pete Williams along with two 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.039 of his friends, were stopped by police for suspicious behavior 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.720 in the area of the attacks. Police noticed that Pete 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.280 resembled the sketch and came up with a reason to 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.600 arrest him, saying that he gave them false information in 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:21.640 order to bring him in to be photographed. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:22.959 His photo was. 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.920 Shown to both women for a positive ID. While Pete 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.959 was locked up, Three more attacks would occur with the 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.360 same mom but it was already too late. Pete Williams 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:38.200 spent nearly twenty two years in prison before DNA testing 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:43.120 proved that another man was responsible for all five attacks. 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:58.160 This is wrongful Conviction with Jason Plomm. Welcome back to 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:03.320 Wrongful Conviction. This episode is going to be a very 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.080 unique one. We have with us Pete Williams, who served 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.800 twenty two years in Georgia prisons for a rape he 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.000 did not commit. Two rapes, actually they did not commit. 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:19.440 And with him is Drew Finling, who is a who 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.320 can I say, enigmatic character, famous for his work representing 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.000 some of the top hip hop arts in the world, 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.720 and he's also now the president of the National Association 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:32.000 of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He got involved in criminal defense 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.240 work because of Pete's case, but they never met it 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.200 till today, correct, So this is going to be a 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.280 fun ride and I'm excited to be honest. So Pete, welcome, 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.200 and the same to you, Drew. Absolutely, And like I 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.919 always say, Pete, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.280 you're here. And I want to tell your story because 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.480 I think it's an important story for a lot of reasons. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.359 I guess at the heart of it is. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.560 A mistaken witness identification more than one actually, and it's 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:00.680 a really important thing for us to talk because it's 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.799 so common. But can you take us back to I mean, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.400 this is a long time ago, right, because you were 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.280 exonerated in two thousand and seven, yes, but the help of 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.440 the Innocence Project, So this crime goes all the way 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.840 back to the mid eighties. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:14.399 Right, yeah? 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:15.840 Five? 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.200 And what were you up to back then? What was 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.639 your life like? What was going on in Pete's world? 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.760 Most An was working, I had dropped out of school, 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.760 really didn't have much going on other than freedom. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:33.440 How old were you? 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:35.440 I just had twenty three. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.400 So you're twenty three. You got charged with originally one. 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.080 Rape, right, yeah, one way right at the time. 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.360 And let's talk about this awful rape which occurred on 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:47.560 April fifth, nineteen eighty five, which is when a woman 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.200 arrived at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road, 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.600 just north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out, 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.400 a man approached, pretending that he was looking for someone, 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.480 but when he got close, he pulled a gun and 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.880 forced her back into the car, then drove her at 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.880 gunpoint to a dead end street where he raped her. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.880 Then he drove her back to her apartment complex, and 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.360 then he left on foot. So the victim then went 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:14.760 to the police and the hospital for a rape kid 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.800 which means there was a sample of the rapist DNA, 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.960 and that becomes important later because after all, there was 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.240 no DNA testing back in nineteen eighty five anyway, So 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.760 later on though, we're going to get to that. So 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.120 by now, the victim had spent a considerable amount of 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:32.880 time with her attacker, and as a result, she was 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.120 able to help the police put together a composite sketch. 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.599 And this attacker had a particular mo too. Can you 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:41.679 talk about that, Drew. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.479 Yeah, So what had happened is Roswell Road is a 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.120 very long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:49.880 say it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.480 things like that. But the real rapist was trolling up 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.080 and down Roswell Road and he would go to women 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:58.520 and I think they would kind of be in their 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.640 twenties and they would like blind and blonde hair, and 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:03.640 he would say the same like have you seen and 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.839 I used to know the name Carol, Carol? Yeah, have 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.440 you seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car. 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:10.240 Right. 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:12.799 So, five days after the first rape, on April tenth, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.600 nearly the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.400 ended up being an attempted rape, but still the same Hey, 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:21.280 do you know Carol? 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:22.120 Or where's Carol? 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.760 Accept his second victim when he tried to get her 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.200 to take off her clothes. I don't know how, but 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:29.640 she was able to talk him out of raping her. 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:31.320 She went to the police. 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.760 They hear this similar MO from just five days before, 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.080 and they show her the composite sketch and she agreed 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:42.680 that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So Pete, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:44.640 you've got nothing to do with this. You had nothing 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:46.320 to do this, but you lived in the area, so 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.760 can you tell us how you were dragged into this 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.240 when you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:54.000 Road one night. 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:58.760 I was riding out right on Roswell and it was 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.120 starting in my car. I was passing on the car, 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.760 so it was a compositive skates going around in that area. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.120 So the way that they arrested me, they told that 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:11.800 I gave them false information. That's just to get me 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.320 there and get my photograph, my picture to show the 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:19.360 witness because I gave them information while I was staying 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:20.480 everything adequate. 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.280 Oh, you gave them accurate information, yes. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.360 Of course, yeah, And they said yeah, they said it 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.560 was false. You know, I couldn't all get the police, 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:30.279 so you're. 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:31.240 A stop by the police. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.600 They have this composite sketch in the back of their 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.200 minds and they come up with a reason. They said 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.919 that you gave them false information, which wasn't true, but 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.320 they wanted an excuse to get your photograph to share 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.240 with these two women because they thought that you looked 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.120 enough like the sketch, so they arrested you. 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.440 Then what I was there for a while. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.599 Wait, I was there maybe about four or five hours. 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.120 But it was a relative cheap bomb. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:06:58.680 You know. 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.520 So I was going out three to four hours after 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.080 I was arrested, and two weeks later I was sure 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.279 it was rape, aggravated uselt and aggravate US solomy and 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.440 I was arrested and I didn't know what they was 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:12.200 talking about. 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:13.960 Had you even heard about these? 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:16.920 I didn't have the slightest idea. They said it was 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.360 from positive circling of rape was out in that area 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:21.440 and I resembled it. 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.760 Now did that sketch actually resemble you? 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:25.640 Yeah? 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.840 It actually did, right, So so you resembled the sketch, 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:31.600 so that was dead. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.400 I didn't you know, I didn't. I haven't raped anybody. 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:36.200 I just resembled it in positive skitch. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.400 The sketch resembled you. And then I'm presuming you were 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.720 identified as well in the lineup on court. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:48.080 Oh, it was a lineup, and I was identifying doing 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:49.000 the trial as well. 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:51.960 I mean, we know that I witness misidentification is the 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:53.920 leading cause of wrongful convictions. 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.360 And look, I'm just not the biggest believer in the 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:01.520 composite sketch because the composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.400 the perpetrator. And so it just happened to have favored him, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.560 and then it's the composite sketch and anybody that looks 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:14.440 like them that replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.560 I'm just not a believer in the whole composite sketch thing. 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.520 I just don't like where they lead, as in convictions 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.280 of innocent people in cases like this. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:28.320 So the charges were rape, aggravated assault, and aggravated sod 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:31.720 of me, and true, this is where you first entered 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.120 the picture. He became aware of Pete's case, and this 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.720 is at his trial where you were just a young man, 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.200 just out of law school pretty much right at. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.320 The time, I was twenty five years old. I was 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.200 fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.200 public defender assigned to mister William's courtroom where his case 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.400 took place. And I made it my practice. Then I 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.040 would just watch every case I could. I just gobbled 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.040 it up, and I loved my job as a public defender. 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.880 And I just happened to watch his case and then 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.240 really started learning about it, and I watched the trial. 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.880 So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.360 long stretch of road in Atlanta, but at some point 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.840 along the road, it is the City of Atlanta, and 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.120 then it's no longer the City of Atlanta. Well, the 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.600 real rapist because it wasn't mister Williams. Anybody that watched 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.440 the trial would realize that, because I watched the trial 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.560 and I'll talk about that later, and it was obvious 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.959 he was innocent. So, Jason, here's the crazy thing. One 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.640 jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police. On the 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:37.160 other part of the road was Fulton County Police. To 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.000 this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into did 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.280 they ever talk to one another? And in fact, if 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.920 you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the City 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.920 of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.960 But yet on the other side of the sign was 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.960 this case involving mister Williams, and apparently he got arrested 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.080 and then eventually they arrested the other guy who I 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.560 think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor, 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:08.760 his case was on the seventh floor, was on the seven, Yeah, 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.839 he was on seventh, on the eighth, you're right, yeah, 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.240 And he pled out during his trial and I went 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.480 and watched his also because the Public Devendor's office did 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:18.839 that case. 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:20.920 Wait, how far apart were the two different? 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.680 I can't remember the dates. They weren't too far apart. 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.160 But I watched his and I read up on his 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.559 and I was like, well, this guy did it, and 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:30.440 it was astonishing, And. 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.360 Let's go back to the pattern, right, Because for whatever reason, 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.920 the attacker always did the same damn thing. Maybe he 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.480 thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.240 these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:48.199 or Carolyn. Why he was fixating on that? Yeah, but 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.559 that was his thing. And he also had this car 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.520 that broke down a lot, because a number of the 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.520 women reported that. And what's crazy is that after Pete 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.360 was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the same 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:06.360 damn mL right with exactly the same pattern, the exact 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.319 same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible clearly 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.520 for all five attacks, but he only face charges related 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.679 to those three, And so the other two attacks repined 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.439 on you, Pete and this other guy, Kenneth Wicker. He 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.440 finally got caught because his last victim heroically was able 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.680 to take down her attacker's license plate number, and it 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:32.080 turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road. Where 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.400 all of these attacks were taking place. So it would 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:41.720 seem obvious to the casual observer that the DA would 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.400 hear about these other cases and this other arrest and 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.400 immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete. 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.200 But that's not what happened. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:55.120 And later all of this was brought up in your appeals, 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:59.599 and I'm talking as early as nineteen eighty six, but 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:04.320 the DA just didn't fucking care about it then or 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.000 while he was prosecuting you in the first place. 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.200 Sir Jason, Pete and I we just met downstairs and 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.400 we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm about 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.199 to bring up which has bothered him to this day, 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:17.320 and I'm going to tell it to you, and that 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:23.240 is our system, right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.720 Pete Williams, his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.800 as we know from several things, including the fact that 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.080 he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:33.640 right now. 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.679 The prosecutor, the prosecutor oh blot twist, yes, I mean. 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:42.760 Yeah, and was also eventually charged not only with that murder, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.680 which he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.520 for a drug operation when he was in private practice. 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.240 So not the best guy in the world. And I 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.520 bring that up only because you would fathom that a decent, 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.040 ethical prosecutor, which there are many of out there, would 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.360 have realized this having been the lead mister Williams case, 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:06.000 and said, uh, oh, we got problems. And that never happened. 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.880 He never had the ethics of a prosecutor that realized 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.400 what you just said and wanted to put an end 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.520 to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen, and there 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:18.439 was a real breakdown. 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.800 Yeah, I'm still trying to process this. 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:22.600 This is a story. 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.400 I've heard a lot of stories, and you know, doing 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:26.800 this since the early nineties. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.760 The irony is Pete said to me outside we agreed. 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.200 How come that didn't become the biggest part of the 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:38.079 story of Pete Williams's illegal conviction and incarceration. As he said, 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.640 I was serving my sentence and my prosecutor was hearving 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.800 his sentence at the exact same time. 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.599 Oh so he went to prison while you were in this. 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:48.880 Well this is not the same. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.359 Prison, not the same prison, but he went doing mind cusurrection. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:54.640 Did you know that at the time? Yeah, I probably it. 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.080 On tell me Jason was one of the biggest cases 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.280 in the history of Atlanta. Yeah, yeah, I can't even 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.720 think in my thirty plus years of practice of a 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.200 federal case that they changed venue. It was such a 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.120 big case. But they actually had to change venue to 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.480 Birmingham in his federal case, his murder case, they changed 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.679 venue as well, and did it somewhere in the woods, 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.440 rural Georgia somewhere, But they actually moved his federal case 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.160 to Birmingham because they just couldn't get a jury in Atlanta. 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:24.760 Fred Tokars his name. It was one of the biggest 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:26.080 cases in the history of Atlanta. 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.000 So I took a second to look up Fred Tokars 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.680 and what I found out was batshit crazy, crazier than 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.680 what Pete and Drew had said. This Georgia prosecutor went 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.920 on to become a private attorney to some big time 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.640 drug dealers, but besides representing them, he was also helping 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:50.400 them hide their money in nightclubs, and eventually his wife, Sarah, 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.160 threatened to blow the whistle on his illegal and the 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:57.640 various activities, but instead of turning his life around, he 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.520 plotted to have her kidnap and killed in front of 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.000 their four and six year old boys, Ricky and Mike. 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:10.440 I mean, what the actual fuck. He was convicted of 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.480 racketeering in nineteen ninety four and eventually also convicted for 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:19.160 Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility of parole. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.280 He was held in secret custody as a marked man, 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.080 and since this interview is recorded, despite his more treacherous 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.400 than usual situation in prison, Fred Tokers died in May 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.880 of twenty twenty in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.880 complications related to a neurological disorder. 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.680 And that was the prosecutor that put mister Williams away. 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.840 So, I mean, it's just an unbelievable twist of fate 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:50.200 right that the guy who was responsible for ruining your 0:15:50.280 --> 0:16:03.320 life ends up inmate. The Pacers Foundation is a proud 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.560 supporter of this episode and of the Last Mile organization, 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:10.800 which provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:15.400 successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.840 is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:23.560 supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.600 For more information, on the work of the Pacers Foundation 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.800 or the Last Mile Program. Visit Pacersfoundation dot org or 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:37.280 the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.640 a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.200 and Garrison, a leading international law firm. The AIG pro 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.880 Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:53.760 many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.600 they announced that working to reform the criminal justice system 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.560 will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.960 Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.000 pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.560 our society and in support of the public interest, including 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:19.960 extensive work in the criminal justice area. You end up 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:25.320 getting sentenced to basically a life sentence. Yeah, forty five 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.399 years to life. And you were twenty four at the time. Yeah, 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:31.480 so forty five to life. And of course what I 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.800 five the life really means life because ultimately it'd be 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:36.600 sixty eight years old and they'd be asking you to 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:37.159 be guilty. 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.080 Yeah, And the way to hit my sonos lined up 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.560 fifteen teen and twenty do to fifteen one to do 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.960 to fifteen do the team finish the team? 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.679 Do to twining? It was consecutive sentences. 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:52.160 So how did you deal with this? 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.680 I mean, you're behind bars, convicted rapist, looking at spending. 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:57.640 The rest of your life there? 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.760 How did you find the strength to e and continue 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.960 on and ultimately contact and reach out and get this 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.680 incredible team behind you that led to your exoneration and 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:09.520 you know vindication. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:12.159 Mm. 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.000 Well, my first ten year of priism, man, I was 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.040 stayed in the whole segregation and fought all the time 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.480 in subordination because I felt like there wasn't no hope, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.320 so I might as well be part of the prism, 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.040 you know. And I met this guy after ten years. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.119 He's sung gospel and he always went to church, and 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.479 he was always happen, you know, and and he had 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.480 more time than that, He had a life sent and 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.639 some time, but he never showed it. He never showed it, 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.600 and I wanted to know why, you know why. It 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.640 wasn't about it, he said the church. Man, I sing 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.399 the gospel and it makes me feel better. So I 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.280 used to go out and sing it first because I 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.280 really didn't know any gospels, you know what I mean. 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.159 But once I got to going and listen to gospel. 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.160 I learned a few gospel songs and I started liking it. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.960 Came paul Or Choir for about five years, and that's 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.480 where a guy was in there. He had a booklet 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.720 concerning MCENT projects. So I got it in that started 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:12.840 writing him and told him that it was I had 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:13.879 some evidence. 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.280 Was this Georgia Andson's project or New York and George 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:16.720 and Georgia. 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.680 Yeah, And they got concerned and what kind of evidence 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.640 you had? So I was writing them and I told them, 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.439 and some way they got a hold of it. They 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.560 said they had destroyed it here in eighty seven. They 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.240 said they destroyed all that. But Cliff, some way, Cliff 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.360 had talked to some at the GBI, be on some female, 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.879 and she allowed him back there and lo and behold, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:37.320 that was my. 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:39.760 Evidence. 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.720 And the evidence at the Georgia Breau of Investigation that 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.399 Pete is referring to is the real rapist DNA sample 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.560 from the rape kit, and they were finally able to 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.280 test it to not only exclude Pete, but they also 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.720 tested against the DNA of the man who had pleaded 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.199 guilty to those other rapes that had happened during the 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.959 same time period of long roswell and sure enough, Bingo, 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:06.800 it's him. But of course this incredible revelation did not 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:11.560 come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.840 was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.520 like these, And Drew, let's go back to you on this. 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.280 It's I mean, it's just nuts that we don't have 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:26.640 a nationwide standard for maintaining evidence. In fact, practices are 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.760 different all over. Some are good and some are, like, 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.960 let's face it, like a third world country. 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:37.000 There's really no national consistency. And so you know when 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.800 you say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.800 probably have well over one hundred thousand innocent people in 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.280 our prison systems, and that's probably a low number. We 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:51.240 think about if we had consistency in the preservation of evidence, 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:53.760 what would we'd be able to do. It's really going 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.000 to require a coordinated effort. But it's the only right 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:57.479 thing to do. 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:02.080 There's just absolutely no argument against it. There's nothing bad 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:03.480 about preserving evidence. 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.520 Well, there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.760 hear about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.760 making on behalf of them and argued about just having 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.000 somebody's testing done, and prosecutors objected to testing being done, 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.880 Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:26.040