Speaker 1: This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence
Speaker 1: Network conference in two thousand nineteen. On April fifth, a
Speaker 1: woman was exiting her car at a parking lot just
Speaker 1: north of Atlanta when a man approached, asking about a
Speaker 1: woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he pulled
Speaker 1: a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove to
Speaker 1: a dead end, and proceeded to raper. After the attack,
Speaker 1: the victim went to the hospital for a rape kit.
Speaker 1: With a well lit parking lot and over forty five
Speaker 1: minutes with her attacker, she was able to put together
Speaker 1: a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near identical incident
Speaker 1: occurred along the same stretch of road. A man approached
Speaker 1: a woman in a parking lot and asking for Carol,
Speaker 1: before using a thread of violence to get her back
Speaker 1: into the car. However, this time the victim was able
Speaker 1: to talk the attacker into leaving before a rap occurred.
Speaker 1: The police showed this would be victim the composite sketch,
Speaker 1: and it appeared there was a serial rapist operating in
Speaker 1: the North Atlanta area. Then on April Willie Pete Williams,
Speaker 1: along with two of his friends, were stopped by police
Speaker 1: for suspicious behavior in the area of the attacks. Police
Speaker 1: noticed that Pete resembled the sketch and came up with
Speaker 1: a reason to arrest him, saying that he gave them
Speaker 1: false information in order to bring him in to be photographed.
Speaker 1: His photo was shown to both women for a positive
Speaker 1: i D. While Pete was locked up, Three more attacks
Speaker 1: would occur with the same m O, but it was
Speaker 1: already too late. Pete Williams spent nearly twenty two years
Speaker 1: in prison before DNA testing proved that another man was
Speaker 1: responsible for all five attacks. This is wrongful conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason Flom. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. This episode is
Speaker 1: gonna be a very unique one. We have with us
Speaker 1: Pete Williams, who served twenty two years in Georgia prisons
Speaker 1: for a rape he did not commit, two rapes, actually
Speaker 1: they did not commit. And with him is Drew Findling,
Speaker 1: who is uh can I say, enigmatic character, famous for
Speaker 1: his work representing some of the top hip hop artis
Speaker 1: in the world, and he's also now the president of
Speaker 1: the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He got involved
Speaker 1: in criminal defense work because of Pete's case, but they
Speaker 1: never met until today. So this is gonna be a
Speaker 1: fun ride, and I'm excited to be honest. So Pete,
Speaker 1: welcome and same to you, Drew. And like I always say, Pete,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 1: And I want to tell your story because I think
Speaker 1: it's an important story for a lot of reasons. I
Speaker 1: guess that at the heart of it is a mistaken
Speaker 1: witness identification more than one actually, and it's a really
Speaker 1: important thing for us to talk about because it's so common.
Speaker 1: But can you take us back to I mean, this
Speaker 1: is a long time ago, right, because you were exonerating
Speaker 1: two thousand seven with the help of the Innocence Project,
Speaker 1: So this crime goes all the way back to the
Speaker 1: mid eighties, right, And what were you up to back then?
Speaker 1: What was your life like? What was going on in
Speaker 1: in Pete's world? Most of that was working, uh and
Speaker 1: dropped out of school. Really didn't have much going on
Speaker 1: other than freedom. How were you I just so you're
Speaker 1: twenty three. You got charged with originally one rape right
Speaker 1: at the time, and let's talk about this awful rape
Speaker 1: which occurred on April, which is when a woman arrived
Speaker 1: at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road, just
Speaker 1: north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out a
Speaker 1: man approach, pretending that he was looking for someone, but
Speaker 1: when he got close, he pulled a gun and forced
Speaker 1: her back into the car, then drove her at gunpoint
Speaker 1: to a dead end street where he raped her. Then
Speaker 1: he drove her back to her apartment complex, and then
Speaker 1: he left on foot. So the victim then went to
Speaker 1: the police and the hospital for a rape kit, which
Speaker 1: means there was a sample of the rapist d N A.
Speaker 1: And that becomes important later because after all, there was
Speaker 1: no DNA testing back in anyway. So later on, though,
Speaker 1: we're gonna get to that. So by now the victim
Speaker 1: had spent a considerable amount of time with her attacker,
Speaker 1: and as a result, she was able to help the
Speaker 1: police put together a composite sketch. And this attacker had
Speaker 1: a particular m O too. Can you talk about that, Troup, Yes,
Speaker 1: So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very
Speaker 1: long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to say
Speaker 1: it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with things
Speaker 1: like that. But the real rapist was trolling up and
Speaker 1: down Russell Road, and he would go to women and
Speaker 1: they I think they would kind of be in their
Speaker 1: twenties and they had like blond on and on here,
Speaker 1: and he would say the same like have you seen
Speaker 1: and I used to know the name Carol, Carol, have
Speaker 1: you seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car. Right. So,
Speaker 1: five days after the first rape, on April ten, nearly
Speaker 1: the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this ended
Speaker 1: up being an attempted rape, but still the same, Hey,
Speaker 1: do you know Carol? And where's Carol? Except the second
Speaker 1: victim when he tried to get her to take off
Speaker 1: her clothes. I don't know how, but she was able
Speaker 1: to talk him out of raping her. She went to
Speaker 1: the police. They hear this similar m O from just
Speaker 1: five days before, and they show her the composite sketch
Speaker 1: and she agreed that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So, Pete,
Speaker 1: you've got nothing to do with this. You have nothing
Speaker 1: to do this. But you lived in the area, So
Speaker 1: can you tell us how you were dragged into this
Speaker 1: when you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell
Speaker 1: Road one night. I was run up on Roswell And
Speaker 1: and it was starting my car. It was I I
Speaker 1: was passing on the car. So there was a compositive
Speaker 1: kids going around in that area. So the way that
Speaker 1: they arrested me, they told that I gave them false information.
Speaker 1: That's just to get me there and get my photographed,
Speaker 1: my picture to show the witness because I gave them
Speaker 1: information while I was staying everything adequate? Are you gave
Speaker 1: them accurate information? And they said yeah, they said it
Speaker 1: was false. So you know, I can all get to police.
Speaker 1: So so you're stopped by the police. They have this
Speaker 1: composite sketch in the back of their minds and they
Speaker 1: come up with a reason. They said that you gave
Speaker 1: them false information, which wasn't true, but they wanted an
Speaker 1: excuse to get your photograph to share with these two
Speaker 1: women because they thought that you looked enough like the sketch,
Speaker 1: so they arrested you. Then what I was there for
Speaker 1: a while where I was there maybe about four or
Speaker 1: five hours, but it was a relive cheap bomb, you know,
Speaker 1: so I was bowing out then three to four hours
Speaker 1: after I was arrested, and two weeks later I was
Speaker 1: told was rape aglobator. So in Acobato solomy, and I
Speaker 1: was arristed, and I didn't know what they were talking about.
Speaker 1: Had you even heard about these? I didn't have a
Speaker 1: snighters ideal. They said it was compositive circle of rapers
Speaker 1: are in that area, and I resembled it. Now did
Speaker 1: that sketch actually resemble you? Yeah? Actually right? So so
Speaker 1: you resembled the sketch, So that was there. I didn't
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't. I hadn't right anybody. I just
Speaker 1: resembled it. In positive case, the sketch resembled you. And
Speaker 1: then I'm presuming you were identified as well in the
Speaker 1: lineup on in court. Oh, it was a line up,
Speaker 1: and I was identifying during the trial as well. And
Speaker 1: when we know that I witness miss identification is the
Speaker 1: leading cause of wrongful convictions. And and look, I'm just
Speaker 1: not the biggest believer in the composite sketch because the
Speaker 1: composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not the perpetrator, And so
Speaker 1: it just happened to have favored him, and then it's
Speaker 1: the composite sketch and anybody that looks like them that
Speaker 1: replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So I'm just not
Speaker 1: a believer in the whole composite sketch thing. I just
Speaker 1: don't like where they lead, as in convictions of innocent
Speaker 1: people in cases like this. So the charges were rape,
Speaker 1: aggravated assault, and aggravated sodomy and drew. This is where
Speaker 1: you first entered the picture. He became aware of Pete's case,
Speaker 1: and this is at his trial where you were just
Speaker 1: a young man just out of law school pretty much
Speaker 1: right at the time. I was years old. I was
Speaker 1: fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant
Speaker 1: public defender assigned to Mr Williams courtroom where his case
Speaker 1: took place. And you know, I made it my my
Speaker 1: practice then that was just watched every case I could
Speaker 1: and I just gobbled it up, and I loved my
Speaker 1: job as a public defender. And I just happened to
Speaker 1: watch his case and then really started learning about it
Speaker 1: and I watched the trial. So what had happened is
Speaker 1: Roswell Road is a very long stretch of road in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: But at some point along the road, um it is
Speaker 1: the city of Atlanta, and then it's no longer the
Speaker 1: city of Atlanta. Well, the real rapist because it wasn't
Speaker 1: Mr Williams anybody that watched the trial would realize that
Speaker 1: because I watched the trial and I'll talk about that later,
Speaker 1: and it was obviously was innocent. So Jason, here's the
Speaker 1: crazy thing. One jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police.
Speaker 1: On the other part of the road was Fulton County Police.
Speaker 1: To this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into
Speaker 1: did they ever talk to one another? And in fact,
Speaker 1: if you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the
Speaker 1: City of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist.
Speaker 1: But yet on the other side of the sign was
Speaker 1: this case involving Mr Williams, and apparently he got arrested,
Speaker 1: and then eventually they arrested the other guy who I
Speaker 1: think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor.
Speaker 1: His case was on the seventh floor. Yeah, yeah, he
Speaker 1: was on seven. You're right, yeah, um, And he pled
Speaker 1: out during his trial and I went and watched his also,
Speaker 1: because the Public Defender's office did that case. How how
Speaker 1: far apart were the I can't remember the dates. They
Speaker 1: weren't too far apart, but I watched his and I
Speaker 1: read up on his and I was like, well, this
Speaker 1: guy did it, and it was astonishing. And let's go
Speaker 1: back to the pattern, right, because for whatever reason, the
Speaker 1: attacker always did the same damn thing. He maybe he
Speaker 1: thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing
Speaker 1: these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol
Speaker 1: or Carolyn. Why he was fixated on that, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: that was his thing. And he also had this car
Speaker 1: that broke down a lot, because a number of the
Speaker 1: women reported that. And what's crazy is that after Pete
Speaker 1: was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the same
Speaker 1: damn m O right, with exactly the same pattern, the
Speaker 1: exact same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible
Speaker 1: clearly for all five attacks, but he only face charges
Speaker 1: related to those three, And so the other two attacks
Speaker 1: were penned on you Pete and this other guy, Kenth Wicker.
Speaker 1: He finally got caught because his last victim heroically was
Speaker 1: able to take down her attacker's license plate number. And
Speaker 1: it turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road
Speaker 1: where all of these attacks were taking place. So it
Speaker 1: would seem obvious to the casual observer that the d
Speaker 1: A would hear about these other cases and this other
Speaker 1: arrest and immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete, but that's
Speaker 1: not what happened. And later all of this was brought
Speaker 1: up in your appeals, and I'm talking as early as
Speaker 1: six but the he a just didn't care about it
Speaker 1: then or while he was prosecuting you in the first place.
Speaker 1: So Jason and Pete and I we just met downstairs
Speaker 1: and we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm
Speaker 1: about to bring up which has bothered him to this day.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna tell it to you. And that is
Speaker 1: our system right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for Pete Williams,
Speaker 1: his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical. Um,
Speaker 1: as we know from several things, including the fact that
Speaker 1: he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case
Speaker 1: right now. The prosecutor the prosecutor plot twist, yes, I mean,
Speaker 1: and was also eventually charged not only with that murder,
Speaker 1: which he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer
Speaker 1: for a drug operation when he was in private practice.
Speaker 1: So not the best guy in the world. And and
Speaker 1: I bring that up only because you would fathom that
Speaker 1: a decent, ethical prosecutor, which there are many about there,
Speaker 1: would have realized as having been the lead secutor Mr.
Speaker 1: Williams case and said, oh, we got problems. Um, And
Speaker 1: that never happened. He never had the ethics of a
Speaker 1: prosecutor that realized what you just said and wanted to
Speaker 1: put an end to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen.
Speaker 1: And um, there was a real breakdown. Yeah, I'm still
Speaker 1: trying to process this. Um, this is a story. I've
Speaker 1: heard a lot of stories, and you know, doing this
Speaker 1: since the early nineties. The irony is Pete said to
Speaker 1: me outside we agreed. How come that didn't become the
Speaker 1: biggest part of the story of Pete Williams illegal conviction
Speaker 1: and incarceration. As he said, I was serving my sentence
Speaker 1: and my prosecutor was serving his sense at the exact
Speaker 1: same time. Oh so he went to prison while you
Speaker 1: were in not the same prison, same prism, but he
Speaker 1: went during my inceration. Did you know that? At the time, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought Jason was one of the biggest cases in
Speaker 1: the history of Atlantic Yeah. I can't even think in
Speaker 1: my thirty plus years of practice of a federal case
Speaker 1: that they changed venue. It was such a big case,
Speaker 1: but they actually had to change venue to Birmingham and
Speaker 1: his federal case his murder case. They changed venue as
Speaker 1: well and did it somewhere in the woods on a
Speaker 1: rural George or somewhere, but actually moved his federal case
Speaker 1: to Birmingham because they just couldn't get a jury in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Fred Tokar's name. It was one of the biggest cases
Speaker 1: in the history of Atlanta. So I took a second
Speaker 1: to look up Fred tokers and what I found out
Speaker 1: was batshit crazy, crazier than what Pete and Drew had said.
Speaker 1: This Georgia prosecutor went on to become a private attorney
Speaker 1: to some big time drug dealers, but besides representative, he
Speaker 1: was also helping them hide their money in nightclubs, and
Speaker 1: eventually his wife, Sarah threatened to blow the whistle on
Speaker 1: his illegal and the various activities, but instead of turning
Speaker 1: his life around, he plotted to have her kid apt
Speaker 1: and killed in front of their four and six year
Speaker 1: old boys, Rickey and Mike. I mean, what the actual fuck.
Speaker 1: He was convicted of racketeering in and eventually also convicted
Speaker 1: for Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility
Speaker 1: of parole. He was held in secret custody as a
Speaker 1: marked man insist this interview is recording despite his more
Speaker 1: treacherous than usual situation in prison. Fred Poker's died in
Speaker 1: May in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to complications related
Speaker 1: to a neurological disorder. And that was the prosecutor that
Speaker 1: put Mr Williams away. So, I mean, it's just an
Speaker 1: unbelievable twist of fate, right that the guy who was
Speaker 1: responsible for ruining your life ends up. The Pacers Foundation
Speaker 1: is a proud supporter of this episode and of the
Speaker 1: Last Mile organization, which provides business and tech training to
Speaker 1: help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce.
Speaker 1: The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of
Speaker 1: Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young
Speaker 1: people and students. For more information on the work of
Speaker 1: the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacers
Speaker 1: Foundation dot org or the Last Mile dot org. This
Speaker 1: episode is sponsored by a i G, a leading global
Speaker 1: insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a
Speaker 1: leading international law firm. The A i G Pro Bono
Speaker 1: program provides free legal services and other support to many
Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they
Speaker 1: announced that working to reform the criminal justice system will
Speaker 1: become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss
Speaker 1: has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro
Speaker 1: bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our
Speaker 1: society and in support of the public interest, including extensive
Speaker 1: work in the criminal justice area. You end up getting
Speaker 1: sentenced to basically a life sentence, forty five years of
Speaker 1: life and you were twenty four at the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so life And of course what if the life really
Speaker 1: means life because ultimately it would be six or eight
Speaker 1: years old and they would be asking you to lead guilty. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and the way they had masons online up fifteen
Speaker 1: team and twinn do the fifteen? I want to do
Speaker 1: the fifteen? Do the team? Or visit in do twinter?
Speaker 1: It was consecutive sentences. So how did you deal with this?
Speaker 1: I mean, you're behind bars, convicted rapists, looking at spending
Speaker 1: your the rest of your life there? How did you
Speaker 1: find the strength to e and continue on and ultimately
Speaker 1: contact and reach out and get this incredible team behind
Speaker 1: you that led to your exhoneration and you know, vindication
Speaker 1: mm hmmm. When my first teen year of prison, man
Speaker 1: I was stayed in the whole segregation, I fought all
Speaker 1: the time into born names because I felt like that
Speaker 1: wasn't no hope, so I might as well be part
Speaker 1: of the prison, you know. And I met this guy
Speaker 1: aufter ten years. It's on gospel. He always went to
Speaker 1: church and he would always happen, you know, and he
Speaker 1: had more time and that. Yeah, but I like Smerson,
Speaker 1: but he's never showed it. He never showed her. And
Speaker 1: I want to know why, you know why I wasn't
Speaker 1: about he said the church man, I say that gospel.
Speaker 1: It makes me feel better. So I used to go
Speaker 1: out and saying it first because I really didn't know
Speaker 1: it the gospel, you know what I mean. But once
Speaker 1: I got to going and listen to gospel on a
Speaker 1: few gospel songs, and I started liking it. And not
Speaker 1: to ain't pulled a quiet for about five years. And
Speaker 1: that's where a guy was in there. He had a
Speaker 1: book loot concerning Amazon products. So I got it and
Speaker 1: I started writing them and told him that it was
Speaker 1: I had some more evidence. Was this Georgia insence Project
Speaker 1: of New York and George and Georgia. Yeah, and they
Speaker 1: got concerned to what kind of epidence you? So I
Speaker 1: was writing them and I told him, and some way
Speaker 1: they got a hold of it. They said they had
Speaker 1: destroyed it here and eighty seven and they said they
Speaker 1: destroyed all that. But cliff some way, Clifford told to
Speaker 1: some at the GB I be on some female and
Speaker 1: see allowed him back there and lo and behold, that
Speaker 1: was my own evidence. And the evidence at the Georgia
Speaker 1: Bureau of Investigation that Pete is referring to is the
Speaker 1: real rapist DNA sample from the rape kit, and they
Speaker 1: were finally able to test it to not only exclude Pete,
Speaker 1: but they also tested against the DNA of the man
Speaker 1: who had pleaded guilty to those other rapes that had
Speaker 1: happened during the same time period along Roswell, and sure enough, Bingo,
Speaker 1: it's him. But of course, this incredible revelation did not
Speaker 1: come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence
Speaker 1: was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases
Speaker 1: like these. And Drew, let's let's go back to you
Speaker 1: on this. It's it's I mean, it's just nuts that
Speaker 1: we don't have a nationwide standard from maintaining evidence. In fact,
Speaker 1: practices are different all over. Some are good and some are, like,
Speaker 1: let's face it, like a third world country. There's really
Speaker 1: no national consistency. And and so you know when you
Speaker 1: say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we probably
Speaker 1: have well over a hundred thousand innocent people in our
Speaker 1: in our prison systems, and and that's probably a low number.
Speaker 1: We think about if we had consistency in the preservation
Speaker 1: of evidence, what would we'd be able to do. It's
Speaker 1: really going to require a coordinated effort. But it's the
Speaker 1: only right thing to do. There's just absolutely no argument
Speaker 1: against it. There's nothing bad about preserving evidence. Well, there's
Speaker 1: there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you hear
Speaker 1: about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to to
Speaker 1: make in on behalf of them and argued about just
Speaker 1: having somebody's testing done, and prosecutors objected to testing being done.
Speaker 1: Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why
Speaker 1: would you ever object to being able to check off
Speaker 1: the list? The possibility that somebody innocent is in jail
Speaker 1: for many years, if not their life. And it's that
Speaker 1: same type of flawed logic um that would have some say, well,
Speaker 1: we don't need to take up the room, we don't
Speaker 1: need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You
Speaker 1: could just fathom the arguments that are coming with, you know,
Speaker 1: because prosecutors want to believe in law enforcement, want to
Speaker 1: believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction,
Speaker 1: and so you're gonna always deal with that sentiment, which
Speaker 1: is wrong. That's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment that
Speaker 1: dictates around the country when good folks are are are
Speaker 1: fighting a half of the innocent project to have testing
Speaker 1: done and they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors
Speaker 1: that don't want testing to be done. To me, why
Speaker 1: would you want to destroy person well and identify the
Speaker 1: actual perpetrator like it does, I don't even know what
Speaker 1: to think of that. Thank god they hadn't actually destroyed
Speaker 1: the evidence from your case, because they actually exculpated you
Speaker 1: and it ended up causing you to be released from
Speaker 1: prison on January two thousand seven, and subsequently it matched
Speaker 1: up to Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all
Speaker 1: those years ago. He was then arrested on February nine,
Speaker 1: two thousand seven for the April fifth and tenth incidents.
Speaker 1: Then four days later you were granted a new trial
Speaker 1: on February and the d A subsequently dropped all charges,
Speaker 1: but all the charges, you know, they took the rape
Speaker 1: and everything away from my So you were in court
Speaker 1: when all the charges were actually dropped. And what was
Speaker 1: that like? How? Who was there? A lot of family?
Speaker 1: Was it at my family? My family? And there was
Speaker 1: a lot of people it was happy for me, you know,
Speaker 1: even people I didn't know, you know, like even the polices.
Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, one of the polices
Speaker 1: that was you just take me back and forth the
Speaker 1: coot and she came down and said, I always knew
Speaker 1: you was innocent. Wow. How did that feel? One one?
Speaker 1: And it's worth noting that in about and this is
Speaker 1: project cases that where DNA has has exculpated an exonerate
Speaker 1: led the exoneration of an innocent person, it has also
Speaker 1: led to the identification of the guilty person. That's absolutely right.
Speaker 1: And in those cases, of course, um that person has
Speaker 1: gone on to have committed other heinous crimes. When you
Speaker 1: lock up the wrong person, you stop looking for the
Speaker 1: right person, and then that person that's out there is
Speaker 1: most likely going to go and do what they did again.
Speaker 1: It's just a practical issue of we should all want
Speaker 1: to clean up these systems as best we can so
Speaker 1: that our ourselves and our families are safe. I mean, well,
Speaker 1: you know, look, Jason, I think it's it's symptomatic of
Speaker 1: a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of our of our
Speaker 1: problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think it's
Speaker 1: UM all that is really tied in UM. We don't
Speaker 1: as defense attorneys and accused citizens, you know, we don't
Speaker 1: control the fact that UM as you well know, we
Speaker 1: represent five percent of the world's population, but closing of
Speaker 1: the world incarcerated population, we don't dictate that. And I
Speaker 1: don't want this to be a session where I'm, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control so much.
Speaker 1: Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You had a
Speaker 1: prosecutor what an antisocial disorder that went on to be
Speaker 1: involved in a murder himself. And as a as a
Speaker 1: twenty five year old, fresh out of law school kid,
Speaker 1: I watched what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and
Speaker 1: I watched a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor,
Speaker 1: it was a game. It wasn't about justice. And that's
Speaker 1: why Pete, I made a decision that I was gonna
Speaker 1: spend the rest of my life defending people because of
Speaker 1: your case. It was just a job. At that point.
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about a public defender. I never
Speaker 1: even met a lawyer until my first law school class.
Speaker 1: I have humble beginnings, but your your case dictated to
Speaker 1: me what I wanted to spend the rest of my
Speaker 1: life doing. I watched that prosecutor game the system. It
Speaker 1: was just a game to him, and and unfortunately, the
Speaker 1: power that being a prosecutor brings is often results in
Speaker 1: misguided prosecutions because they have the ability, if they handle ethically,
Speaker 1: to make sure to the best of their ability, that
Speaker 1: just doesn't happen, to make sure that evidence is preserved,
Speaker 1: to make sure that there is proper identification procedures, and
Speaker 1: they have the ability to be that wall that lasts
Speaker 1: wall of justice to say, you know, I don't I
Speaker 1: don't need a motion to suppress identification because as the prosecutor,
Speaker 1: I don't like the way this went down. We talk
Speaker 1: so much about ourselves as defense attorneys and what our
Speaker 1: job is but we need to be spending a lot
Speaker 1: of time looking at the other side of the courtroom.
Speaker 1: And I get that there's integrity units closing up, but
Speaker 1: it needs to be a lot greater than that. It
Speaker 1: needs to be a lot better than just every once
Speaker 1: in a while a progressive prosecutor running for office. It
Speaker 1: needs to be all over the country because he has
Speaker 1: the benefit of this happening in Atlanta, But when we
Speaker 1: go to the rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi
Speaker 1: and Alabama and Tennessee, sadly, there's a lot of of
Speaker 1: Pete Williams that are serving life sentences um for from
Speaker 1: prosecutors that were as misguided and as corrupt as the
Speaker 1: one in his case. And that's why it's so important
Speaker 1: for people to get out and vote in prosecutor racist
Speaker 1: because most people don't. The number of people that vote
Speaker 1: in these races is so small that if you don't
Speaker 1: think your vote makes a difference, it does. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've seen races that ended up in a dead heat,
Speaker 1: like tied. You know, like your vote is important, and
Speaker 1: if you're on of those people thinks so I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna vote in the presidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes,
Speaker 1: it does. It matters in the presidentialism, but it ladd
Speaker 1: is a lot more and your local elections where your
Speaker 1: your d A is running um and you know, and
Speaker 1: electing a a progressive prosecutor, which that's not even the
Speaker 1: right word, A fair prosecutor could affect your life as well,
Speaker 1: because this could happen to you, could happen to Pete,
Speaker 1: It could happen to anybody. We see it over and
Speaker 1: over again on this show. And then let's even talk
Speaker 1: about it from a purely fiscal level, you know, for
Speaker 1: any conservatives that are listening, When we think about the
Speaker 1: amount of money that the taxpayers of Georgia paid well
Speaker 1: upwards of a million dollars, probably closer to two million
Speaker 1: dollars to keep Pete lock up, and then any other
Speaker 1: income that he would have been able to earn and
Speaker 1: pay taxes on, and you know, all the rest of
Speaker 1: the stuff. That's a pretty big thing too. I just
Speaker 1: learned the other day on a tangential note, that we
Speaker 1: spend forty million dollars a day in America on pre
Speaker 1: trial detention, right just because people can't post bail forty
Speaker 1: million a day to lock people up who haven't been
Speaker 1: convicted of anything. That's a day, that's your tax dollars
Speaker 1: at work, and mind by the way, and whoever's listening,
Speaker 1: it's nuts. I mean, we lock up more people than
Speaker 1: Russia and China combined. Back to your previous point, we
Speaker 1: locked black people up at six times the rate of
Speaker 1: South Africa at the height of apartheid. And if you're
Speaker 1: a woman listening, then you should just process this for
Speaker 1: a second, because while you know what Drew said is
Speaker 1: certainly scary and true about us having the world's prison population,
Speaker 1: we have thirty three of the world's female prison population.
Speaker 1: That means one out of every three women in prison
Speaker 1: in the world is in America, which is such a
Speaker 1: small country when you look at the vast world that's
Speaker 1: out there. And the more we can do to get
Speaker 1: out there and spread the message, and the more you
Speaker 1: do to get out there and vote and get active
Speaker 1: and volunteer, go to Georgia Innocence Project a website, you know,
Speaker 1: learn more. Contact an a c d L. What is it,
Speaker 1: an a cd L dot org exactly, an a c
Speaker 1: DL dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
Speaker 1: dot org. So I'm glad you brought up kind of
Speaker 1: where people fall on the political continuum. You should know
Speaker 1: that the term just finished and there's a new governor here.
Speaker 1: But our last governor, Nathan Deal, was a Republican to
Speaker 1: term Republican, and the National Associational Criminal Defense Lawyers gave
Speaker 1: him a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice
Speaker 1: Award for his work on criminal justice reform. And so
Speaker 1: you hit on it no matter where you are, left wing,
Speaker 1: right wing, no wing. We are at a period of
Speaker 1: time right now where people are really focusing on criminal
Speaker 1: justice reform. And I think that you bring up all
Speaker 1: the numbers, they're they're startling and it can impact anybody,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's the fact that our prison systems
Speaker 1: are warehousing the mentally ill and adult autistic population. UM.
Speaker 1: There's so many things that attract people. UM. The National
Speaker 1: Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers UM, we as you know,
Speaker 1: we have our foundation for criminal justice and we really
Speaker 1: embrace non lawyers to be part of it. Our long
Speaker 1: term goal is to get non lawyers into our leadership track. UM.
Speaker 1: Let them be trustees. We need people to reach out
Speaker 1: to us because we just want everyday citizens to be involved.
Speaker 1: Come to our meetings and Jason's right. There may not
Speaker 1: be an election that may impact your life more than
Speaker 1: who your local district attorney is. Have them answer to
Speaker 1: your questions. Folks need to take these stories to heart,
Speaker 1: and which is why this podcast is so important. They
Speaker 1: need to understand that not everybody is going to be
Speaker 1: blessed with the opportunity to connect up with the innocence projects.
Speaker 1: So listen to podcasts like this and get involved the
Speaker 1: most of you can. UM. And that is once again
Speaker 1: in a CDL dot org National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.
Speaker 1: Now we have this tradition at Wrongful Conviction, which is
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show, which is where I
Speaker 1: get to just sit back and listen and uh, I
Speaker 1: leave the microphones on for you guys for any closing
Speaker 1: thoughts that you want to share. And because Pete is
Speaker 1: the honored guest here, not that you're not, but you
Speaker 1: know he's the star of the show, I'm gonna let
Speaker 1: him go last, and so drew any parting shots. Pete.
Speaker 1: I just want to uh, I wish you the best
Speaker 1: and let let you know that the tragedy occurred to you,
Speaker 1: UM influence the course of my existence. So my family,
Speaker 1: all my clients. I want to hug you, Pete. I'm
Speaker 1: glad you broadcast to let people know that things like
Speaker 1: this actually happen. People do go to jail wrong from
Speaker 1: they're convicted, and I'm just glad you all been the
Speaker 1: pubment know that these things actually happen. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
Speaker 1: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music
Speaker 1: on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts and associate was Signal Company number one