1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: Network conference in twenty nineteen. On April fifth, nineteen eighty five, 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: a woman was exiting her car at a parking lot 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: just north of Atlanta when a man approached asking about 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: a woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: pulled a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: to a dead end, and proceeded. 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: To rape her. After the attack, the victim went to 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: the hospital for a rape kit. 10 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: With a well lit parking lot and over forty five 11 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: minutes with her attacker, she was able to put together 12 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near identical incident 13 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: occurred along the same stretch of road. 14 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 2: A man approached a woman in. 15 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: A parking lot asking for Carol, before using a threat 16 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: of violence to get her back into the car. However, 17 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: this time the victim was able to talk the attacker 18 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: into leaving before a rape occurred. The police showed this 19 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: would be victim the composite sketch, and it appeared there 20 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: was a serial rapist operating in the North Atlanta area. Then, 21 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: on April twenty eighth, Willie Pete Williams along with two 22 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: of his friends, were stopped by police for suspicious behavior 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: in the area of the attacks. Police noticed that Pete 24 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: resembled the sketch and came up with a reason to 25 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: arrest him, saying that he gave them false information in 26 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: order to bring him in to be photographed. 27 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: His photo was. 28 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: Shown to both women for a positive ID. While Pete 29 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: was locked up, Three more attacks would occur with the 30 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: same mom but it was already too late. Pete Williams 31 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: spent nearly twenty two years in prison before DNA testing 32 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: proved that another man was responsible for all five attacks. 33 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: This is wrongful Conviction with Jason Plomm. Welcome back to 34 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. This episode is going to be a very 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: unique one. We have with us Pete Williams, who served 36 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: twenty two years in Georgia prisons for a rape he 37 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: did not commit. Two rapes, actually they did not commit. 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: And with him is Drew Finling, who is a who 39 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: can I say, enigmatic character, famous for his work representing 40 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: some of the top hip hop arts in the world, 41 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: and he's also now the president of the National Association 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He got involved in criminal defense 43 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: work because of Pete's case, but they never met it 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: till today, correct, So this is going to be a 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: fun ride and I'm excited to be honest. So Pete, welcome, 46 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: and the same to you, Drew. Absolutely, And like I 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: always say, Pete, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad 48 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: you're here. And I want to tell your story because 49 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: I think it's an important story for a lot of reasons. 50 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 2: I guess at the heart of it is. 51 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: A mistaken witness identification more than one actually, and it's 52 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: a really important thing for us to talk because it's 53 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: so common. But can you take us back to I mean, 54 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: this is a long time ago, right, because you were 55 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: exonerated in two thousand and seven, yes, but the help of 56 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: the Innocence Project, So this crime goes all the way 57 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: back to the mid eighties. 58 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 2: Right, yeah? 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: Five? 60 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: And what were you up to back then? What was 61 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 2: your life like? What was going on in Pete's world? 62 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: Most An was working, I had dropped out of school, 63 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: really didn't have much going on other than freedom. 64 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: How old were you? 65 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 3: I just had twenty three. 66 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: So you're twenty three. You got charged with originally one. 67 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: Rape, right, yeah, one way right at the time. 68 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: And let's talk about this awful rape which occurred on 69 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: April fifth, nineteen eighty five, which is when a woman 70 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: arrived at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road, 71 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: just north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out, 72 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: a man approached, pretending that he was looking for someone, 73 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: but when he got close, he pulled a gun and 74 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: forced her back into the car, then drove her at 75 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: gunpoint to a dead end street where he raped her. 76 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: Then he drove her back to her apartment complex, and 77 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: then he left on foot. So the victim then went 78 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: to the police and the hospital for a rape kid 79 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: which means there was a sample of the rapist DNA, 80 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: and that becomes important later because after all, there was 81 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: no DNA testing back in nineteen eighty five anyway, So 82 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: later on though, we're going to get to that. So 83 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: by now, the victim had spent a considerable amount of 84 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: time with her attacker, and as a result, she was 85 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: able to help the police put together a composite sketch. 86 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: And this attacker had a particular mo too. Can you 87 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 1: talk about that, Drew. 88 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, So what had happened is Roswell Road is a 89 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 4: very long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to 90 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 4: say it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with 91 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 4: things like that. But the real rapist was trolling up 92 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 4: and down Roswell Road and he would go to women 93 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 4: and I think they would kind of be in their 94 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 4: twenties and they would like blind and blonde hair, and 95 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 4: he would say the same like have you seen and 96 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 4: I used to know the name Carol, Carol? Yeah, have 97 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 4: you seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car. 98 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: Right. 99 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 1: So, five days after the first rape, on April tenth, 100 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: nearly the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this 101 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: ended up being an attempted rape, but still the same Hey, 102 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: do you know Carol? 103 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: Or where's Carol? 104 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: Accept his second victim when he tried to get her 105 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: to take off her clothes. I don't know how, but 106 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: she was able to talk him out of raping her. 107 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: She went to the police. 108 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: They hear this similar MO from just five days before, 109 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: and they show her the composite sketch and she agreed 110 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So Pete, 111 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: you've got nothing to do with this. You had nothing 112 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: to do this, but you lived in the area, so 113 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: can you tell us how you were dragged into this 114 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: when you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell 115 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: Road one night. 116 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 3: I was riding out right on Roswell and it was 117 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 3: starting in my car. I was passing on the car, 118 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: so it was a compositive skates going around in that area. 119 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: So the way that they arrested me, they told that 120 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 3: I gave them false information. That's just to get me 121 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: there and get my photograph, my picture to show the 122 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 3: witness because I gave them information while I was staying 123 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 3: everything adequate. 124 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 2: Oh, you gave them accurate information, yes. 125 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, And they said yeah, they said it 126 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 3: was false. You know, I couldn't all get the police, 127 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 3: so you're. 128 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: A stop by the police. 129 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: They have this composite sketch in the back of their 130 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: minds and they come up with a reason. They said 131 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: that you gave them false information, which wasn't true, but 132 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: they wanted an excuse to get your photograph to share 133 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: with these two women because they thought that you looked 134 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: enough like the sketch, so they arrested you. 135 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: Then what I was there for a while. 136 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 3: Wait, I was there maybe about four or five hours. 137 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 3: But it was a relative cheap bomb. 138 00:06:58,440 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: You know. 139 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: So I was going out three to four hours after 140 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 3: I was arrested, and two weeks later I was sure 141 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 3: it was rape, aggravated uselt and aggravate US solomy and 142 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: I was arrested and I didn't know what they was 143 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: talking about. 144 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: Had you even heard about these? 145 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: I didn't have the slightest idea. They said it was 146 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 3: from positive circling of rape was out in that area 147 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 3: and I resembled it. 148 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: Now did that sketch actually resemble you? 149 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? 150 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: It actually did, right, So so you resembled the sketch, 151 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: so that was dead. 152 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: I didn't you know, I didn't. I haven't raped anybody. 153 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: I just resembled it in positive skitch. 154 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: The sketch resembled you. And then I'm presuming you were 155 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: identified as well in the lineup on court. 156 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: Oh, it was a lineup, and I was identifying doing 157 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: the trial as well. 158 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we know that I witness misidentification is the 159 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: leading cause of wrongful convictions. 160 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 4: And look, I'm just not the biggest believer in the 161 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 4: composite sketch because the composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not 162 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 4: the perpetrator. And so it just happened to have favored him, 163 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 4: and then it's the composite sketch and anybody that looks 164 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 4: like them that replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So 165 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 4: I'm just not a believer in the whole composite sketch thing. 166 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 4: I just don't like where they lead, as in convictions 167 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 4: of innocent people in cases like this. 168 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: So the charges were rape, aggravated assault, and aggravated sod 169 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: of me, and true, this is where you first entered 170 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: the picture. He became aware of Pete's case, and this 171 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: is at his trial where you were just a young man, 172 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: just out of law school pretty much right at. 173 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 4: The time, I was twenty five years old. I was 174 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 4: fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant 175 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 4: public defender assigned to mister William's courtroom where his case 176 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 4: took place. And I made it my practice. Then I 177 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 4: would just watch every case I could. I just gobbled 178 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 4: it up, and I loved my job as a public defender. 179 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 4: And I just happened to watch his case and then 180 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 4: really started learning about it, and I watched the trial. 181 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 4: So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very 182 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 4: long stretch of road in Atlanta, but at some point 183 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 4: along the road, it is the City of Atlanta, and 184 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 4: then it's no longer the City of Atlanta. Well, the 185 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 4: real rapist because it wasn't mister Williams. Anybody that watched 186 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 4: the trial would realize that, because I watched the trial 187 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 4: and I'll talk about that later, and it was obvious 188 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 4: he was innocent. So, Jason, here's the crazy thing. One 189 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 4: jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police. On the 190 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 4: other part of the road was Fulton County Police. To 191 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 4: this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into did 192 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 4: they ever talk to one another? And in fact, if 193 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 4: you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the City 194 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 4: of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist. 195 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 4: But yet on the other side of the sign was 196 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 4: this case involving mister Williams, and apparently he got arrested 197 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 4: and then eventually they arrested the other guy who I 198 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 4: think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor, 199 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 4: his case was on the seventh floor, was on the seven, Yeah, 200 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 4: he was on seventh, on the eighth, you're right, yeah, 201 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 4: And he pled out during his trial and I went 202 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 4: and watched his also because the Public Devendor's office did 203 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 4: that case. 204 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: Wait, how far apart were the two different? 205 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 4: I can't remember the dates. They weren't too far apart. 206 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 4: But I watched his and I read up on his 207 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 4: and I was like, well, this guy did it, and 208 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 4: it was astonishing, And. 209 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the pattern, right, Because for whatever reason, 210 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: the attacker always did the same damn thing. Maybe he 211 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing 212 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol 213 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: or Carolyn. Why he was fixating on that? Yeah, but 214 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: that was his thing. And he also had this car 215 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: that broke down a lot, because a number of the 216 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: women reported that. And what's crazy is that after Pete 217 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the same 218 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: damn mL right with exactly the same pattern, the exact 219 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible clearly 220 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: for all five attacks, but he only face charges related 221 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: to those three, And so the other two attacks repined 222 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: on you, Pete and this other guy, Kenneth Wicker. He 223 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: finally got caught because his last victim heroically was able 224 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: to take down her attacker's license plate number, and it 225 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road. Where 226 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: all of these attacks were taking place. So it would 227 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: seem obvious to the casual observer that the DA would 228 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: hear about these other cases and this other arrest and 229 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete. 230 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: But that's not what happened. 231 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: And later all of this was brought up in your appeals, 232 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: and I'm talking as early as nineteen eighty six, but 233 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: the DA just didn't fucking care about it then or 234 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: while he was prosecuting you in the first place. 235 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 4: Sir Jason, Pete and I we just met downstairs and 236 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 4: we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm about 237 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 4: to bring up which has bothered him to this day, 238 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 4: and I'm going to tell it to you, and that 239 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 4: is our system, right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for 240 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 4: Pete Williams, his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical, 241 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 4: as we know from several things, including the fact that 242 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 4: he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case 243 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 4: right now. 244 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: The prosecutor, the prosecutor oh blot twist, yes, I mean. 245 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, and was also eventually charged not only with that murder, 246 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 4: which he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer 247 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 4: for a drug operation when he was in private practice. 248 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 4: So not the best guy in the world. And I 249 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 4: bring that up only because you would fathom that a decent, 250 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 4: ethical prosecutor, which there are many of out there, would 251 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 4: have realized this having been the lead mister Williams case, 252 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 4: and said, uh, oh, we got problems. And that never happened. 253 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 4: He never had the ethics of a prosecutor that realized 254 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 4: what you just said and wanted to put an end 255 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 4: to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen, and there 256 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 4: was a real breakdown. 257 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm still trying to process this. 258 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: This is a story. 259 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of stories, and you know, doing 260 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: this since the early nineties. 261 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 4: The irony is Pete said to me outside we agreed. 262 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 4: How come that didn't become the biggest part of the 263 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 4: story of Pete Williams's illegal conviction and incarceration. As he said, 264 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 4: I was serving my sentence and my prosecutor was hearving 265 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 4: his sentence at the exact same time. 266 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 2: Oh so he went to prison while you were in this. 267 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: Well this is not the same. 268 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,359 Speaker 3: Prison, not the same prison, but he went doing mind cusurrection. 269 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: Did you know that at the time? Yeah, I probably it. 270 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 4: On tell me Jason was one of the biggest cases 271 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 4: in the history of Atlanta. Yeah, yeah, I can't even 272 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 4: think in my thirty plus years of practice of a 273 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 4: federal case that they changed venue. It was such a 274 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 4: big case. But they actually had to change venue to 275 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 4: Birmingham in his federal case, his murder case, they changed 276 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 4: venue as well, and did it somewhere in the woods, 277 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 4: rural Georgia somewhere, But they actually moved his federal case 278 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 4: to Birmingham because they just couldn't get a jury in Atlanta. 279 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 4: Fred Tokars his name. It was one of the biggest 280 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 4: cases in the history of Atlanta. 281 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: So I took a second to look up Fred Tokars 282 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: and what I found out was batshit crazy, crazier than 283 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: what Pete and Drew had said. This Georgia prosecutor went 284 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: on to become a private attorney to some big time 285 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: drug dealers, but besides representing them, he was also helping 286 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: them hide their money in nightclubs, and eventually his wife, Sarah, 287 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: threatened to blow the whistle on his illegal and the 288 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: various activities, but instead of turning his life around, he 289 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: plotted to have her kidnap and killed in front of 290 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: their four and six year old boys, Ricky and Mike. 291 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean, what the actual fuck. He was convicted of 292 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: racketeering in nineteen ninety four and eventually also convicted for 293 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility of parole. 294 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: He was held in secret custody as a marked man, 295 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: and since this interview is recorded, despite his more treacherous 296 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: than usual situation in prison, Fred Tokers died in May 297 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to 298 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: complications related to a neurological disorder. 299 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 4: And that was the prosecutor that put mister Williams away. 300 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: So, I mean, it's just an unbelievable twist of fate 301 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: right that the guy who was responsible for ruining your 302 00:15:50,280 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: life ends up inmate. The Pacers Foundation is a proud 303 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: supporter of this episode and of the Last Mile organization, 304 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: which provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals 305 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation 306 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, 307 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. 308 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: For more information, on the work of the Pacers Foundation 309 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: or the Last Mile Program. Visit Pacersfoundation dot org or 310 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, 311 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton 312 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: and Garrison, a leading international law firm. The AIG pro 313 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to 314 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently 315 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: they announced that working to reform the criminal justice system 316 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul 317 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful 318 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of 319 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: our society and in support of the public interest, including 320 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: extensive work in the criminal justice area. You end up 321 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: getting sentenced to basically a life sentence. Yeah, forty five 322 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: years to life. And you were twenty four at the time. Yeah, 323 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: so forty five to life. And of course what I 324 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: five the life really means life because ultimately it'd be 325 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: sixty eight years old and they'd be asking you to 326 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: be guilty. 327 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, And the way to hit my sonos lined up 328 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 3: fifteen teen and twenty do to fifteen one to do 329 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 3: to fifteen do the team finish the team? 330 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 4: Do to twining? It was consecutive sentences. 331 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 2: So how did you deal with this? 332 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you're behind bars, convicted rapist, looking at spending. 333 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 2: The rest of your life there? 334 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: How did you find the strength to e and continue 335 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: on and ultimately contact and reach out and get this 336 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: incredible team behind you that led to your exoneration and 337 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: you know vindication. 338 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 2: Mm. 339 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: Well, my first ten year of priism, man, I was 340 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 3: stayed in the whole segregation and fought all the time 341 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: in subordination because I felt like there wasn't no hope, 342 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 3: so I might as well be part of the prism, 343 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 3: you know. And I met this guy after ten years. 344 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 3: He's sung gospel and he always went to church, and 345 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 3: he was always happen, you know, and and he had 346 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 3: more time than that, He had a life sent and 347 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 3: some time, but he never showed it. He never showed it, 348 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: and I wanted to know why, you know why. It 349 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 3: wasn't about it, he said the church. Man, I sing 350 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 3: the gospel and it makes me feel better. So I 351 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 3: used to go out and sing it first because I 352 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 3: really didn't know any gospels, you know what I mean. 353 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 3: But once I got to going and listen to gospel. 354 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 3: I learned a few gospel songs and I started liking it. 355 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 3: Came paul Or Choir for about five years, and that's 356 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 3: where a guy was in there. He had a booklet 357 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 3: concerning MCENT projects. So I got it in that started 358 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: writing him and told him that it was I had 359 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 3: some evidence. 360 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: Was this Georgia Andson's project or New York and George 361 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 2: and Georgia. 362 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, And they got concerned and what kind of evidence 363 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 3: you had? So I was writing them and I told them, 364 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 3: and some way they got a hold of it. They 365 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 3: said they had destroyed it here in eighty seven. They 366 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: said they destroyed all that. But Cliff, some way, Cliff 367 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 3: had talked to some at the GBI, be on some female, 368 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 3: and she allowed him back there and lo and behold, 369 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: that was my. 370 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: Evidence. 371 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: And the evidence at the Georgia Breau of Investigation that 372 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: Pete is referring to is the real rapist DNA sample 373 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: from the rape kit, and they were finally able to 374 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: test it to not only exclude Pete, but they also 375 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: tested against the DNA of the man who had pleaded 376 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: guilty to those other rapes that had happened during the 377 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: same time period of long roswell and sure enough, Bingo, 378 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: it's him. But of course this incredible revelation did not 379 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence 380 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases 381 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: like these, And Drew, let's go back to you on this. 382 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's just nuts that we don't have 383 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: a nationwide standard for maintaining evidence. In fact, practices are 384 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: different all over. Some are good and some are, like, 385 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: let's face it, like a third world country. 386 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 4: There's really no national consistency. And so you know when 387 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 4: you say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we 388 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 4: probably have well over one hundred thousand innocent people in 389 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 4: our prison systems, and that's probably a low number. We 390 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 4: think about if we had consistency in the preservation of evidence, 391 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 4: what would we'd be able to do. It's really going 392 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 4: to require a coordinated effort. But it's the only right 393 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 4: thing to do. 394 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: There's just absolutely no argument against it. There's nothing bad 395 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: about preserving evidence. 396 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 4: Well, there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you 397 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 4: hear about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to 398 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 4: making on behalf of them and argued about just having 399 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 4: somebody's testing done, and prosecutors objected to testing being done, 400 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 4: Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why 401 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 4: would you ever object to being able to check off 402 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 4: the list the possibility that somebody innocent is in jail 403 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 4: for many years, if not their life. And it's that 404 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 4: same type of flawed logic that would have some say, well, 405 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 4: we don't need to take up the room, We don't 406 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 4: need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You 407 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 4: could just fathom the arguments that are coming, you know, 408 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 4: because prosecutors want to believe and law enforcement want to 409 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 4: believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction, 410 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 4: and so you can always deal with that sentiment, which 411 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 4: is wrong. Yeah, that's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment 412 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 4: that dictates around the country when good folks are fighting 413 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 4: amhalf of the innocents project to have testing done and 414 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 4: they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors that don't 415 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 4: want testing to be done. 416 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: To me, why would you want to destroy ivernandek trio person. 417 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: And identify the actual perpetrator like it does. 418 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 3: I don't even know what to think of that, really, 419 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 3: I don't. 420 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: Thank god they hadn't actually destroyed the evidence from your case, 421 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: because they actually exculpated you. And it ended up causing 422 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: you to be released from prison on January twenty third, 423 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, And subsequently it matched up to 424 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all those years ago. 425 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 1: He was then arrested on February ninth, two thousand and seven, 426 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: for the April fifth and tenth incidents. Then four days later, 427 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: you were granted a new trial on February thirteenth, and 428 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: the DA subsequently dropped all charges. 429 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: All the charge you know, they took the rape and 430 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: everything away from my report. 431 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: So you were in court when all the charges were 432 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: actually dropped. And what was that like? How? Who was there? 433 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: A lot of family? Was it a hot Yeah? 434 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: My family, My family there, and there was a lot 435 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 3: of people there. They was happy for me, you know, 436 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 3: even people I didn't know, you know, like even the 437 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 3: police is. And as a matter of fact, one of 438 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 3: the police that was used to take me back and forth, 439 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 3: the colt, and she came down and said, I always 440 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 3: knew you was innocent. 441 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: Wow, how'd that feel? Wonderful man, wonderful And. 442 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: It's worth noting that in about fifty percent of the 443 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: and this is project cases where DNA has has exculpated 444 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: an exonerate led to the exoneration of an innocent person, 445 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: it has also led to the identification of. 446 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: The guilty person. 447 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: That's absolutely right, and in those cases, of course, that 448 00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: person has gone on to have committed other heinous crimes. 449 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 2: Yes, when you lock up the. 450 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: Wrong person, you stop looking for the right person, and 451 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: then that person that's out there is most likely going 452 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: to go and do what they did again. It's just 453 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: a practical issue of we should all want to clean 454 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: up these systems as best we can so that ourselves 455 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: and our families are safe. 456 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 4: I mean, well, you know, look, Jason, I think it's 457 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 4: it's symptomatic of a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of 458 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 4: our problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think 459 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 4: it's all that is really tied in. We don't as 460 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 4: defense attorneys and accuse citizens. You know, we don't control 461 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 4: the fact that, as you well know, we represent five 462 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 4: percent of the world's population, but closing in on twenty 463 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 4: five percent of the world's incarcerated population. We don't dictate that, 464 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 4: and I don't want this to be a session where I'm, 465 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 4: you know, kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control 466 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 4: so much. Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You 467 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 4: had a prosecutor with an anti social disorder that went 468 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 4: on to be involved in a murder, and as a 469 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 4: twenty five year old, fresh out of law school kid, 470 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 4: I watched what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and 471 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 4: I watched a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor, 472 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 4: it was a game. It wasn't about justice, and that's 473 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 4: why ped I made a decision that I was going 474 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 4: to spend the rest of my life defending people because 475 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 4: of your case. It was just a job. At that point, 476 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 4: I didn't know anything about a public defender. I never 477 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 4: even met a lawyer until my first law school class. 478 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 4: I have humble beginnings, but your case dictated to me 479 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 4: what I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing. 480 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 4: I watched that prosecutor game the system. It was just 481 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 4: a game to him, and unfortunately, the power that being 482 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 4: a prosecutor brings is often results in misguided prosecutions because 483 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 4: they have the ability, if they handle ethically, to make 484 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 4: sure to the best of their ability, that just doesn't 485 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 4: happen to make sure that evidence is preserved, to make 486 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 4: sure that there is proper identification procedures, and they have 487 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 4: the ability to be that wall, that last wall of justice, 488 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 4: to say, you know, don't I don't need a motion 489 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 4: to suppress identification because as the prosecutor, I don't like 490 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 4: the way this went down. We talk so much about 491 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 4: ourselves as defense attorneys and what our job is, but 492 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 4: we need to be spending a lot of time looking 493 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 4: at the other side of the courtroom. And I get 494 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 4: that there's integrity units closing up, but it needs to 495 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 4: be a lot greater than that. It needs to be 496 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 4: a lot better than just every once in a while 497 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 4: a progressive prosecutor running for office. It needs to be 498 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 4: all over the country because he has the benefit of 499 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 4: this happening in Atlanta, But when we go to the 500 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 4: rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi and Alabama and Tennessee, sadly, 501 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 4: there's a lot of Pete Williams that are serving life 502 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 4: sentences from prosecutors that were as misguided and as corrupt 503 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 4: as the one in his case. 504 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: And that's why it's so important for people to get 505 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: out and vote in prosecutor races because most people don't. 506 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: The number of people that vote in these races is 507 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: so small that if you don't think your vote makes 508 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: a difference, it does. I mean we've seen races that 509 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: ended up in a dead heat like Tiede. You know, 510 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: like your vote is important and if one of these 511 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: people think, oh, I'm not going to. 512 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 2: Vote in the psidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes it does. 513 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: It matters in the presdentialism, but it matters a lot 514 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: more in your local. 515 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: Elections where your your DA. 516 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: Is running and you know, and electing a progressive prosecutor, 517 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: which that's not even the right word, a fair prosecutor 518 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: could affect your life as well, because this could happen 519 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: to you, It could happen to Pete, it could happen 520 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: to anybody. We see it over and over again on 521 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: this show. And then let's even talk about it from 522 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: a purely fiscal level, you know, for any conservatives that 523 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: are listening, When we think about the amount of money 524 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: that the taxpayers of Georgia paid well upwards of a 525 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: million dollars, probably closer to two million dollars to keep 526 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: Pete lock up, and then any other income that he 527 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 1: would have been able to earn and pay taxes on 528 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: and you know. 529 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: All the rest of this stuff. 530 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: That's a pretty big thing too. I just learned the 531 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: other day on a tangential note, that we spend forty 532 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: million dollars a day in America on pre trial detention, 533 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: right just because people can't post bail. Forty million a 534 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: day to lock people up who haven't been convicted of anything. 535 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: That's a day. 536 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: That's your tax dollars at work and mine, by the way, 537 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: and whoever's listening, it's nuts. I mean, we lock up 538 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: more people than Russia and China combined. Back to your 539 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: previous point, we locked black people up at six times 540 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid. 541 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: And if you're a woman listening, then you should just 542 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: process this for a second, because while you know what 543 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: Drew said is certainly scary and true about us having 544 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: twenty five percent of the world's prison population, we have 545 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. That 546 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: means one out of every three women in prison in 547 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: the world is in America, which is such a small 548 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: country when you look at the vast world that's out there, 549 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: and the more we can do to get out there 550 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: and spread the message. And the more you do to 551 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: get out there and vote and get active and volunteer, 552 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: go to Georgia NIS's project website, you know, learn more. 553 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: Contact NACDL. What is it, NACDL dot org exactly, NACDL 554 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers dot org. 555 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 4: So I'm glad you brought up kind of where people 556 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 4: fall on the political continuum. You should know that the 557 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 4: term just finished and there's a new governor here. But 558 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 4: our last governor, Nathan dial As a Republican, two term Republican, 559 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 4: and the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers gave him 560 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 4: a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice Award 561 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 4: for his work on criminal justice reform. And so you 562 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 4: hit on it. No matter where you are, left wing, 563 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 4: right wing, no wing. We are any period of time 564 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 4: right now where people are really focusing on criminal justice reform. 565 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 4: And I think that you bring up all the numbers, 566 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 4: they're startling and it can impact anybody, you know, whether 567 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 4: it's the fact that our prison systems are warehousing the 568 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 4: mentally ill an adult autistic population. There's so many things 569 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 4: that attract people. The National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. 570 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 4: As you know, we have our foundation for criminal justice 571 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 4: and we really embrace non lawyers to be part of it. 572 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 4: Our long term goal is to get non lawyers into 573 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 4: our leadership track, let them be trustees. We need people 574 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 4: to reach out to us. We just want everyday citizens 575 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 4: to be involved, come to our meetings, and Jason's right, 576 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 4: there may not be an election that may impact your 577 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 4: life more than who your local district attorney is. Have 578 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 4: them answer to your questions. Folks need to take these 579 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 4: stories to heart, and which is why this podcast is 580 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 4: so important. They need to understand that not everybody is 581 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 4: going to be blessed with the opportunity to connect up 582 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 4: with the innocence projects. So listen to podcasts like this 583 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 4: and get involved the most you can. 584 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: And that is once again an ACDL dot org National 585 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Now we have this tradition 586 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, which is my favorite part of the show, 587 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: which is where I get to just sit back and 588 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: listen and I leave the microphones on for you guys 589 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: for any closing thoughts. 590 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: That you want to share. 591 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: And because Pete is the honored guest here, not that 592 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: you're not, but you know he's the star of the show. 593 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to let him go last, and so drew 594 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: any parting shots. 595 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: Pete. 596 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 4: I just want to wish you the best and let 597 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 4: you know that the tragedy that occurred to you influence 598 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 4: the course of my existence. So my family, all my clients, 599 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 4: I want to help you, Pete. 600 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 3: I'm glad y'all had it broadcast to let people know 601 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 3: that things like that actually happen. People do go to 602 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: jail wrong for the convicted, and I'm just glad you 603 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: all been a pubblan note that these things actually happen. 604 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 605 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. 606 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: It really helps. 607 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and 608 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 609 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 610 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and 611 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor 612 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is 613 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure 614 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on 615 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm 616 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association 617 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one