WEBVTT - #226 Jason Flom with Atif Rafay 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:05.920 The Reffays were a Pakistani Canadian immigrant family who moved 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:08.440 to Bellevue, Washington, while their son, a Teif, finished his 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:12.960 freshman year at Cornell University. A Chief's father, doctor Tariq Reffey, 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.880 was a prominent and outspoken moderate Muslim with controversial views 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.439 in their old community in Vancouver. While Atif and his 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.959 best friend Sebastian Burns were out for the night on 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:27.120 July twelfth, nineteen ninety four, Atif's father, mother, and sister 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.240 were brutally bludgeoned to death in their home. Neighbors on 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.720 either side of the Refe's home independently reported hearing the 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.960 sounds of the murders at a time for which the 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:40.000 boys whereabouts were well known. Their vocal operation revealed no 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:44.559 incriminating evidence. DNA evidence mixed with doctor Refae's blood belonged 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.280 to neither the victims nor a Tief or Sebastian. Yet, 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.760 despite all of this, as well as compelling leads implicating 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:56.000 religious extremists, the Bellevue police never took their focus off 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.120 of a Tief at Sebastian. While the boys went up 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:03.000 to live with Sebashian's parents in Canada, investigators enlisted the 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.360 help of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to perform an 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:11.200 undercover sting called Mister Big that extracted two false confessions 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:16.080 that were riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions. To solidify their case, 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.760 they coerced a Tief and Sebastian's friend Jimmy Miyoshi to 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.600 give a third inconsistent statement. When expert testimony on false confessions, 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.319 as well as the evidence of other possible suspects were 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.800 ruled inadmissible, the jury was only able to weigh the 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.720 inconsistent false confessions against the physical evidence and eyewitness accounts 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.360 that clearly contradicted them. This is wrongful conviction with Jason 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:59.200 flamm Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamman. Wow, 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.800 I mean, where to why you even start? Because this 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.040 case should have gone in an entirely different direction with 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.360 what came from the initial investigation, But they took the 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:14.680 really long, borderline crazy way around the right answer to 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.200 get to this one. It's so convoluted, and luckily with 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.120 us today to help tell the story, we have a 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.639 true hero of the innocence movement, and of course I'm 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.960 talking about Ken Klonsky. Ken is the director of Innocence International, 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.840 an organization that he co founded with a legend, a 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:35.280 boxing legend, and a civil rights legend, a man whose 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:40.560 name you'll probably recognize, Reuben Hurricane Carter so Ken. Welcome 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:41.600 to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.799 Thank you, Jason. It's great to be here today. 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.200 We are compelled to shine a light on the horrendous 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:53.680 case of A t fre Fe and Sebastian Burns, two 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.799 nineteen year old boys back then twenty seven years ago, 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:01.960 over nineteen, who were egregiously framed, persecuted in the court 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.480 system and in the press. A Tief is with us today. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.440 Sebastian can't be unfortunately, but the case I want to 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.040 be clear, they're both equally innocent and they're both framed 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:12.880 in the exact same proceedings. 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:14.440 You have a prepaid call. 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.360 You will not be charged for this call. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:22.040 This call is from an inmate aunt Monroe Correctional Complex. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.400 This call will be recorded and monitored. 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.240 So on the phone with us now, calling in from 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.680 prison in Washington State where he's been locked up for 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.280 a triple murder he had nothing to do with. Is 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.920 my friend and personal hero, A t f Fe. A Tief, 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.840 I'm sorry you have to be here under these conditions, 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.680 but hopefully not for too much longer. But I am 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.400 happy you're here and thanks for calling in. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.360 Thank you, Jason. I'm so grateful, So Tief. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.440 Your story was covered by Kelly Laudenberg in the Confession 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.200 Tapes on Netflix, and in a series that was one 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.240 episode per case yours, she actually dedicated two episodes to it. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.240 So we've got had a lot of ground to cover. 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.840 So let's start by going back to a time before 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:09.720 this unspeakable tragedy befell your family. What was life like 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:10.680 for you growing up? 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.760 It was a remarkably happy and lucky life, I would think, 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:20.160 in almost every respect. I grew up partly in the Karachi, Pakistan. 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.279 The most of my life I had lived in Vancouver, 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.960 and I had amazing, devoted, wonderful parents. I mean, my 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.560 parents were extraordinary people, and I didn't really just love them, 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.760 I admired them. My mom was a best friend to me. 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.200 My dad was the kind of person who cared deeply 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.240 about everything in the world and was able to continuously 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.120 engage me in being interested in the world in a 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.280 way that I think two people ever get to experience. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.960 It was a real enormous privilege to grow up like 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.839 that and to be able to have the parents I did. 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.640 So no one ever even claimed that there were any 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.400 problems of any kind in your family, that there were 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.840 any bad feelings, much less violence or strife. And I 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.880 also want to highlight that your father, doctor Tarique Refey, 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.680 was a prominent Sunni Muslim and was active in his 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.280 religious and cultural communities, both in Vancouver and Bellevue, only 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.680 a two and a half hour drive away from one another. 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.800 By the way, he was the co founder and one 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:21.320 time president of the very moderate interfaith friendship building organization, 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:28.080 the Pakistan Canada Association, whose activities were frankly very upsetting 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:29.760 to some more radical Muslims. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.520 And it's important to note that doctor Ifei also published 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:38.280 a paper and developed a controversial computer program indicating that 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:43.160 Muslims in British Columbia were mistakenly not facing Mecca when 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.200 they prayed. The direction Muslims are meant to face is 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.680 called Kiblah, which is the direction of the shortest possible 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.600 path from any place to Mecca, and it has all 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.799 sorts of important implications, not only daily prayers, but also 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.680 Muslims are not permitted to urinate, spit or stretch their 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.799 feet in the direction of Mecca, and when dead Muslims 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.280 must be buried on their right hand side to face Mecca. Now, 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.000 much later, during a chief's trial, this controversy came up, 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:16.120 and the prosecution misquoted doctor Refae's paper stating that according 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.760 to doctor A. Fay, the kibla in use in the 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.320 Pacific Northwest was only off by one degree, and how 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.159 would anyone be angered by such a small degree. But 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.680 the prosecutor had misquoted doctor Rafae, who said that the 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:33.000 true kibla direction was one degree off from the north pole, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:37.000 which would mean that Muslims praying in the Pacific Northwest 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:41.200 were off by close to one hundred degrees. So imagine 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.800 a ninety degree turn and then ten more degrees, and 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.320 then imagine telling folks that their dead parents were facing 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.160 the wrong direction forever. 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.240 So atif the night when your parents and sister were 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:58.000 tragically killed was July twelfth, nineteen ninety four, but you 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.600 and your friend Sebastian Burns were setting out for the 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.800 night while your mother, father, and sister stayed home, if 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.160 you could give us the timeline for that night, Where 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:07.760 did you go and what did you do? 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.080 Sure so it was in any ways a typical night 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.640 for us as teenagers, going out to a diner, then 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.520 going to the movies, and then afterwards searching for a 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.960 club and going for a dessert. We had an early 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.160 light dinner at the Keg restaurant from around nine a 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.160 clocks to about nine thirty ish, and at that time 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.680 we went over for the nine to fifty showings of 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.040 The Lion King, and so we were in the lobby 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.760 for a while until the movie started at nine p fifty. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.160 They would play a large number of advertisements and trailers 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.640 before the movie actually started. Those take several minutes, and 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.680 then what happened that night was something quite unusual. The 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.600 curtains closed after the advertisements and trailers were over, and 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.640 the line King began and started to be projected over 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.600 the closed curtains, and the movie went on like that 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.320 for quite a while, enough so that Sebastian and I 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.440 think some other patrons were in the audience got up 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:05.760 and went and had to go get the manager. It 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.760 took a while for them to get the movie restarted 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.160 and the curtains opened again, and so you know, it 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.000 was probably ten eight or something by the. 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.920 Time all that was salved and that manager's name is 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:21.360 Jose Martinez, who spoke with Sebastian and handled this projector 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:25.120 and curtain issue. He could place you both in the 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:29.320 theater at that time, as could the concessions employee Jesse Kaplan, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.080 who's the guy who sold Sebastian his KitKat and talked 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.920 with him about his T shirt before the movie. Now 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:39.920 both men Jose Martinez and Jesse Kaplan distinctly recalling you 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.600 guys both in the lobby of the theater before the 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.720 movie began and during this projector issue as well, because, 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.720 according to them, a Pakistani kidd and a white guy 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:51.720 with blonde hair made a notable pair. 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.800 So that covers a Chiefs and Sebastian's whereabouts from their 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.440 arrival to the movie theater around nine forty pm to 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.600 at least ten oh eight pm when the projector is 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.640 shoe was fixed. Meanwhile, a thief's neighbors, Mark Sidell and 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.520 Julie Rackley, who lived on either side of the Rafae household, 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.600 whose houses were so close in fact, that they had 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.600 complained sometime of the volume of the Rafae's TV. They 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.600 independently reported and later went on to testify that they 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.280 heard the exact same sounds, describing them as a hammering 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.120 or banging sound, but hollow and muffled sounding, and they 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.280 heard those sounds comfortably in the window of time. When 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.880 Jose Martinez and Jesse Kaplan can place a tief in 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.240 Sebastian in the lobby of the movie theater, you. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.959 Just can't be in two places at once. It's making 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.000 me crazy because you had just about as good of 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.720 an alibi as you could possibly have. So now you've 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:51.760 just seen the Lion King right, and you hit a 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.680 few other places. Just a typical night that millions of 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.840 teenagers have every weekend all over the country. Then you 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.920 go home and find yourself in a literal horror scene. 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.760 So we got out of the car, not expecting anything unusual, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.120 walked into the living room, and I saw my mother 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.600 lying in that room, and I could see stain on 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:20.120 the carpet, and after that, I was in a daze. 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.320 I rushed upstairs. The fashion was rushing everywhere around too, 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:29.559 and it's a confusion of disbelief and bewilderment. I went 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.920 over to my dad's room. Even though the lights were off, 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.200 I could see what the Offsters would later describe as 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.319 it looked like a shotgun blast over the back wall 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:44.400 and it was. I was spinning around literally on my seat. 0:10:45.200 --> 0:11:01.040 I don't think I've ever really recovered from it. I 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:06.440 felt frightened. I felt completely disoriented and in shock. Sash 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.840 and I had just instinctively, I think, ran and ran outside, 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.040 and he had already called the police. I could hear 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.480 him calling, and as soon as the first police officer arrived, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.240 Gary Rimando, he actually drove past us while we were 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.320 in the driveway, and we ran after them, trying to 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.160 flag him down, and he had to actually pound on 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.640 the trunk of the car because he was just driving off. 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.400 And he got out and yelled at us to sit 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.240 on the curb. I don't know whether he thought we 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.800 were perpetrators or something, or somehow involved, but Jerry Rauda 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.280 was very serious about us sitting down and being quiet, 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.880 and I didn't know what to do other than to 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.680 follow his directions. I think that changed the way everyone 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.560 else looked at us and our behavior afterwards. I think 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.959 the other detectives who came in with they were not 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.760 as emotional as we would expect, They were not as 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.720 concerned as we would expect. We gave them every cooperation 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.080 we could. We gave them all our clothes, their shoes, 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.240 my glasses, fingerprints and photographs. They did searches with lights, 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.160 and they did a gunshot residue chat. You know, give 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:14.360 them cartilage to search the house and do whatever else 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.920 they wanted to do. They recorded statements, and then they 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.839 bought us some sweats and jumped us off in the 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:22.840 w mortelle without a phone. 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.200 My assumption was always that they didn't want them to 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.480 call a lawyer or mister Burns to get advice on 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.280 what to do, but to keep them isolated. 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.960 Okay, so they've got you confined in the CD motel room, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.439 poking and prodding you and Sebastian with a whirlwind of 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:45.120 questions and examinations that you submitted to voluntarily, which lasted 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:51.439 about fifty six hours and turned up exactly nothing. 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.319 Neither did the physical evidence that the crime scene incriminate 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.280 a Teeth or Sebastian, nor did the extensive testing that 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.360 a Teeth and Sebastian voluntarily submitted to afterward. There was 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.120 not a shred of bone, blood, tissue, or anything else 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:11.000 found in either boy's body or clothing, or in their hair. 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.000 The idea that you could just shower away all of 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.520 that blood evidence. It's pretty remote. 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.680 So they're pinning their hopes on the DNA test results 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.160 to incriminate you too, because they had nothing else. But 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.720 in the meantime, you're two teenage boys. I mean, let's 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.160 face it, the responsible adults in your lives here in America. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.680 Your parents were simply gone, right, your sister was gone, 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.080 and your house was a crime scene. You had no 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.920 home here at all, right, nowhere to go, and I mean, 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:47.080 now put yourself in Sebastian's parents' shoes, right, they were 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.839 definitely going to try like hell to get you and 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:54.160 their son back to their home in Canada. And all 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.120 of this was happening while funeral arrangements were being made 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.040 by your extended family. So at the. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.800 Time I didn't realize this, but my relatives were actually 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.920 flying in and coming into town, and they kept the 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.760 fact that that was happening from us. So that Ashian's 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.040 parents had contacted the Canadian consulates, and the consulates contacted 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.000 the police and informed themths if they wanted to return 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.240 us to Canada. And I left a message with the 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.480 Keechi Thompson saying that we would be leaving, and on 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:28.000 that very day, my relatives were in Seattle, but the 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.080 police were not disclosing to them where we were for 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.000 how to reach us, and they weren't telling us that 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.200 they were even in town. And so on the day 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.600 that I went back to Canada, I didn't even know 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.560 what the police did know, which was that the funeral 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.800 was already being arranged completely without my knowledge or participation. 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.640 And this would later be something that the police would 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.280 then lie about and describe us as fleeing the country. 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.720 They were saying, as I think a couple of wise 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.280 guys who'd gotten away with something. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.800 So now they want to paint you as fleeing, right, 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.320 even though you had given them everything they'd ask for 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.680 over the course of those fifty six hours in that 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.080 CD motel room. Now, one of the other bizarre things 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.440 about the prosecution's theory in this case was that a 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.360 thief had wanted the insurance money from his parents. But 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.560 even that you would need to suspend a huge amount 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.680 of disbelief because of the level of violence in these murders, 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.800 and particularly of a chief's father, who the police estimated 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.600 was bashed in the head forty times with a baseball 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:36.200 pat and indications were and are that the first blow 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.240 was the blow that ended doctor Affee's life. So why 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.920 would a loving son who now supposedly suddenly out for 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.400 money commit a murder in that manner? 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.480 The amount of violence done could only have indicated fanaticism 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:53.880 to me. 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.120 So now, while there was still waiting on the DNA 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:02.320 to incriminate you, or so they thought, more evidence was 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:07.960 pouring in pointing instead toward religious extremists. You'll remember doctor 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:12.360 Refee's efforts to improve relations with other religious communities and 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.520 his controversial views on Kibla okay. So in the days 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.520 following the murders, the Bellevue Police received not one, not two, 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:26.239 but three tips from other law enforcement agencies. First Constable 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.000 Jelinis with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police told them that 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.800 a confidential informant had warned them of a man who 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.640 had been offered twenty thousand dollars to kill an East 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.440 Indian family that had previously lived in Vancouver but had 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.320 moved to Bellevue. The informant became aware of this two 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:46.640 days before the murders were committed. Jelina's contacted investigators Robert 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.120 Thompson and Jeff Gomes the lead Bellevue officers on the case, 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.120 who then traveled to Vancouver and knocked on the door 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.440 of the man in questions home twice. He didn't answer 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.280 either time, and the officers returned to the US without 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.320 making any contact. Secondly, the Intelligence division of the Seattle 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:08.000 Police had information that Al Fukra, a radical and milletant organization, 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.920 may have been involved in the homicides, but they didn't 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.000 bother to follow up on that tip either, and five 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.440 days after the murders, another tip came in from the FBI. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.320 Right so our CMP Royalty Mounted Police, Seattle Police Intelligence, 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.480 and now the freaking FBI. They delivered an informant to 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.480 Bellevue and he told them that a Milletant Islamic faction 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.399 to which he was privy, said that doctor Tarique Reffey 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.280 should die because of his beliefs and teachings about the Qur'an. 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.280 The informant also said that in the days after the murders, 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.800 a member of this same Milletant faction came to his 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.520 house and was worried that he the informant had seen 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.600 a baseball bat that the Milletan and others had had 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.800 in their car. Because of this concern. The FBI informant 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.399 came to believe that the murder weapon was a bat. Now, 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.520 the Bellevue police already knew the murder weapon was a 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.840 bad but that fact critically had not been made public yet. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.720 This guy was a reliable FBI informant. The police were 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.400 given full addresses, names, places of work, telephone numbers, and 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.159 they just ignored him. They didn't even spell the names 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.360 that he gave them correctly. All of this information never 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.040 came to our attention till years later because they said 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.119 that they didn't have to turn over discovery until we 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.639 were in the United States, and so for years we 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.639 didn't know about any of this information and we couldn't 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:35.280 investigate it. 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.479 So if all of these credible and compelling leads couldn't 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.879 break through the Bellevue investigator's tunnel vision, I'm going to 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.000 go ahead and guess that conflicting DNA test results probably 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.399 wouldn't have made a difference either. So let's dive in. 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.960 Investigators found DNA mixed with doctor Faye's blood in the 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.159 downstairs shower, DNA mixed in with a bloody footprint in 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.760 the garage made with doctor off Fay's blok blood, as 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.399 well as a coarse body hair or pubic hair on 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.359 the parents fitted sheet where Doctorfae's body was found. But 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.520 none of the other DNA profiles that were discovered at 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.960 the crime scene matched the DNA of the victims to 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:21.000 Reek Sultana or Basma Rafae or the supposed alleged culprits 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.920 in the case, Sebastian and a Tief. So there's DNA 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.920 evidence at the crime scene clearly excluding a Tief and 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:33.159 Sebastian and pointing at unknown perpetrators. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.840 One more thing about god Hare that you mentioned the 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:38.840 texts initially when they found it, that it was in 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.159 a position that could only be explained if it had 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.280 been left by the killer. And they kept saying that 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.120 right until the DNA proofs that hadn't belong to Sebastian. 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:51.800 Ormy more inconvenient truths. So if they had no evidence 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.800 of your guilt, which they didn't, in fact, they had 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.800 evidence of someone else's guilt, but they were fixed on 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.640 getting new in and I've go ahead and make shit up. Right. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.760 They pointed to books you had read and philosophy papers, 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.679 saying that you two guys loved Nietzsche and subscribe to 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:14.280 his superman theory, and in their slanted understanding, implied that 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.439 you and Sebastian were capable of callously taking what you 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.600 wanted from those who you deemed weaker than yourselves. Then 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.480 they went after your alibi, saying the Sebastian ordered wine 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.760 at the restaurant you had gone through that night, the 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.280 keg so specifically so that he would be carded right 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:36.359 in order to solidify his alibi. But what's wrong with 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:37.040 this theory? 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:39.960 Well, we had Jake id So, like most of under 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.119 age kids at that time, to get into clubs and 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.760 dig order drinks. But you know it had a different 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.800 name on it, Edward Montero Eduardo Mantero. So I'm not 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:49.280 sure how that would help us exactly. 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.400 Right, for that theory about being remembered to hold water, 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:56.000 you'd have to have id that wasn't fake, not idea 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.600 that was. And then they attacked your alibi again, saying 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.000 that you left the larger than usual tip just to 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.440 be remembered. Okay, fifteen dollars on a bill of nine 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.960 to fifty And if you think that's too much, and 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.119 of course it is more than twenty percent, but try 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.600 asking your server or bartender what they usually do when 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.479 they go out. They're usually very generous to one another. 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:17.600 And Sebastian used to be a server. 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.400 Sebastian like to leave that he had been a server. 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.040 He knew how much that meant to them. You can 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.080 tell it server to keep the change. You're not going 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.600 to just give them a fifty cent tip because you 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.120 have ten even in your bills of nine fifty. You're 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:31.800 going to give them the next billion house. 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:34.040 Which I guess in this case was a five. But 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:37.639 obviously this is all really weak and with the physical 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.040 evidence all pointing away from you, plus all the media 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.240 hype around your case, they had to come up with something. 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.159 So it's January nineteen ninety five, months after the murders, 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.600 you're both in Canada and Bellevue Investigators' list the help 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.200 of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to perform a sting 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.240 operation that was illegal in the US but legal in Canada, 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:01.639 known as Mister Big. 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:07.080 The Myster Big technique involves undercover officers playing roles as gangsters, 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.080 thus gaining the trust of a police target. They seduce 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.280 the target with a gangster mystique and the promise of 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:18.160 big money schemes. They eventually ask about the target's criminal 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.080 history under the guise of knowing whether any past criminal 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:26.080 behavior poses a risk to future criminal operations that they're 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.840 going to perform together. For example, you know, will you 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.320 turn on me if you get pinched? And then, as 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.920 with other methods of eliciting confessions and Jason, your network 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:39.200 has covered this extensively on your show, wrongful conviction, false Confessions. 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:44.040 The results are a mixed bag, some reliable confessions, some false, 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.040 and the most reliable way one can tell the difference 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:51.000 is by the evidence that does or does not corroborate 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:53.200 the statements made by police targets. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.760 Now, in this case, the operation begins with setting up 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:00.240 electronic and visual surveillance of the targets, which include the 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:03.440 tief Sebastian and their friend Jimmy Miyoshi. 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.520 And it's important to note that the authorities knew Jimmy 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.200 wasn't even in any area at the time of the murders, 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.119 but they were leaning on him as an alleged accomplish. 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.359 Either before or after the killing. They would take either. 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:21.600 So the game begins and over time there's a chance meeting, 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:24.120 though well it's not really a chance meeting between Sebastian 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.000 and these undercover agents, and a slow seduction process begins 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:32.479 into making him believe in their assumed criminal identities. They 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.440 let Sebashian in on some stage meetings and some fake 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:38.440