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Speaker 1: The Reffays were a Pakistani Canadian immigrant family who moved

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Speaker 1: to Bellevue, Washington, while their son, a Teif, finished his

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Speaker 1: freshman year at Cornell University. A Chief's father, doctor Tariq Reffey,

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Speaker 1: was a prominent and outspoken moderate Muslim with controversial views

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Speaker 1: in their old community in Vancouver. While Atif and his

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Speaker 1: best friend Sebastian Burns were out for the night on

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Speaker 1: July twelfth, nineteen ninety four, Atif's father, mother, and sister

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Speaker 1: were brutally bludgeoned to death in their home. Neighbors on

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Speaker 1: either side of the Refe's home independently reported hearing the

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Speaker 1: sounds of the murders at a time for which the

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Speaker 1: boys whereabouts were well known. Their vocal operation revealed no

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Speaker 1: incriminating evidence. DNA evidence mixed with doctor Refae's blood belonged

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Speaker 1: to neither the victims nor a Tief or Sebastian. Yet,

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Speaker 1: despite all of this, as well as compelling leads implicating

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Speaker 1: religious extremists, the Bellevue police never took their focus off

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Speaker 1: of a Tief at Sebastian. While the boys went up

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Speaker 1: to live with Sebashian's parents in Canada, investigators enlisted the

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Speaker 1: help of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to perform an

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Speaker 1: undercover sting called Mister Big that extracted two false confessions

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Speaker 1: that were riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions. To solidify their case,

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Speaker 1: they coerced a Tief and Sebastian's friend Jimmy Miyoshi to

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Speaker 1: give a third inconsistent statement. When expert testimony on false confessions,

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Speaker 1: as well as the evidence of other possible suspects were

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Speaker 1: ruled inadmissible, the jury was only able to weigh the

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Speaker 1: inconsistent false confessions against the physical evidence and eyewitness accounts

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Speaker 1: that clearly contradicted them. This is wrongful conviction with Jason

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Speaker 1: flamm Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamman. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I mean, where to why you even start? Because this

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Speaker 1: case should have gone in an entirely different direction with

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Speaker 1: what came from the initial investigation, But they took the

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Speaker 1: really long, borderline crazy way around the right answer to

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Speaker 1: get to this one. It's so convoluted, and luckily with

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Speaker 1: us today to help tell the story, we have a

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Speaker 1: true hero of the innocence movement, and of course I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about Ken Klonsky. Ken is the director of Innocence International,

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Speaker 1: an organization that he co founded with a legend, a

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Speaker 1: boxing legend, and a civil rights legend, a man whose

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Speaker 1: name you'll probably recognize, Reuben Hurricane Carter so Ken. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason. It's great to be here today.

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Speaker 1: We are compelled to shine a light on the horrendous

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Speaker 1: case of A t fre Fe and Sebastian Burns, two

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Speaker 1: nineteen year old boys back then twenty seven years ago,

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Speaker 1: over nineteen, who were egregiously framed, persecuted in the court

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Speaker 1: system and in the press. A Tief is with us today.

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Speaker 1: Sebastian can't be unfortunately, but the case I want to

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Speaker 1: be clear, they're both equally innocent and they're both framed

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Speaker 1: in the exact same proceedings.

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Speaker 2: You have a prepaid call.

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Speaker 1: You will not be charged for this call.

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Speaker 3: This call is from an inmate aunt Monroe Correctional Complex.

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Speaker 3: This call will be recorded and monitored.

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Speaker 1: So on the phone with us now, calling in from

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Speaker 1: prison in Washington State where he's been locked up for

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Speaker 1: a triple murder he had nothing to do with. Is

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Speaker 1: my friend and personal hero, A t f Fe. A Tief,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry you have to be here under these conditions,

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Speaker 1: but hopefully not for too much longer. But I am

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Speaker 1: happy you're here and thanks for calling in.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jason. I'm so grateful, So Tief.

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Speaker 1: Your story was covered by Kelly Laudenberg in the Confession

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Speaker 1: Tapes on Netflix, and in a series that was one

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Speaker 1: episode per case yours, she actually dedicated two episodes to it.

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Speaker 1: So we've got had a lot of ground to cover.

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Speaker 1: So let's start by going back to a time before

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Speaker 1: this unspeakable tragedy befell your family. What was life like

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Speaker 1: for you growing up?

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Speaker 3: It was a remarkably happy and lucky life, I would think,

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Speaker 3: in almost every respect. I grew up partly in the Karachi, Pakistan.

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Speaker 3: The most of my life I had lived in Vancouver,

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Speaker 3: and I had amazing, devoted, wonderful parents. I mean, my

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Speaker 3: parents were extraordinary people, and I didn't really just love them,

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Speaker 3: I admired them. My mom was a best friend to me.

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Speaker 3: My dad was the kind of person who cared deeply

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Speaker 3: about everything in the world and was able to continuously

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Speaker 3: engage me in being interested in the world in a

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Speaker 3: way that I think two people ever get to experience.

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Speaker 3: It was a real enormous privilege to grow up like

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Speaker 3: that and to be able to have the parents I did.

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Speaker 1: So no one ever even claimed that there were any

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Speaker 1: problems of any kind in your family, that there were

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Speaker 1: any bad feelings, much less violence or strife. And I

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Speaker 1: also want to highlight that your father, doctor Tarique Refey,

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Speaker 1: was a prominent Sunni Muslim and was active in his

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Speaker 1: religious and cultural communities, both in Vancouver and Bellevue, only

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Speaker 1: a two and a half hour drive away from one another.

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Speaker 1: By the way, he was the co founder and one

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Speaker 1: time president of the very moderate interfaith friendship building organization,

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Speaker 1: the Pakistan Canada Association, whose activities were frankly very upsetting

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Speaker 1: to some more radical Muslims.

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Speaker 2: And it's important to note that doctor Ifei also published

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Speaker 2: a paper and developed a controversial computer program indicating that

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Speaker 2: Muslims in British Columbia were mistakenly not facing Mecca when

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Speaker 2: they prayed. The direction Muslims are meant to face is

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Speaker 2: called Kiblah, which is the direction of the shortest possible

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Speaker 2: path from any place to Mecca, and it has all

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Speaker 2: sorts of important implications, not only daily prayers, but also

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Speaker 2: Muslims are not permitted to urinate, spit or stretch their

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Speaker 2: feet in the direction of Mecca, and when dead Muslims

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Speaker 2: must be buried on their right hand side to face Mecca. Now,

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Speaker 2: much later, during a chief's trial, this controversy came up,

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Speaker 2: and the prosecution misquoted doctor Refae's paper stating that according

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Speaker 2: to doctor A. Fay, the kibla in use in the

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Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest was only off by one degree, and how

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Speaker 2: would anyone be angered by such a small degree. But

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor had misquoted doctor Rafae, who said that the

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Speaker 2: true kibla direction was one degree off from the north pole,

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Speaker 2: which would mean that Muslims praying in the Pacific Northwest

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Speaker 2: were off by close to one hundred degrees. So imagine

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Speaker 2: a ninety degree turn and then ten more degrees, and

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Speaker 2: then imagine telling folks that their dead parents were facing

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Speaker 2: the wrong direction forever.

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Speaker 1: So atif the night when your parents and sister were

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Speaker 1: tragically killed was July twelfth, nineteen ninety four, but you

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Speaker 1: and your friend Sebastian Burns were setting out for the

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Speaker 1: night while your mother, father, and sister stayed home, if

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Speaker 1: you could give us the timeline for that night, Where

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Speaker 1: did you go and what did you do?

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Speaker 3: Sure so it was in any ways a typical night

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Speaker 3: for us as teenagers, going out to a diner, then

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Speaker 3: going to the movies, and then afterwards searching for a

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Speaker 3: club and going for a dessert. We had an early

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Speaker 3: light dinner at the Keg restaurant from around nine a

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Speaker 3: clocks to about nine thirty ish, and at that time

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Speaker 3: we went over for the nine to fifty showings of

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Speaker 3: The Lion King, and so we were in the lobby

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Speaker 3: for a while until the movie started at nine p fifty.

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Speaker 3: They would play a large number of advertisements and trailers

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Speaker 3: before the movie actually started. Those take several minutes, and

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Speaker 3: then what happened that night was something quite unusual. The

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Speaker 3: curtains closed after the advertisements and trailers were over, and

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Speaker 3: the line King began and started to be projected over

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Speaker 3: the closed curtains, and the movie went on like that

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Speaker 3: for quite a while, enough so that Sebastian and I

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Speaker 3: think some other patrons were in the audience got up

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Speaker 3: and went and had to go get the manager. It

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Speaker 3: took a while for them to get the movie restarted

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Speaker 3: and the curtains opened again, and so you know, it

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Speaker 3: was probably ten eight or something by the.

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Speaker 1: Time all that was salved and that manager's name is

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Speaker 1: Jose Martinez, who spoke with Sebastian and handled this projector

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Speaker 1: and curtain issue. He could place you both in the

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Speaker 1: theater at that time, as could the concessions employee Jesse Kaplan,

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Speaker 1: who's the guy who sold Sebastian his KitKat and talked

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Speaker 1: with him about his T shirt before the movie. Now

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Speaker 1: both men Jose Martinez and Jesse Kaplan distinctly recalling you

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Speaker 1: guys both in the lobby of the theater before the

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Speaker 1: movie began and during this projector issue as well, because,

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Speaker 1: according to them, a Pakistani kidd and a white guy

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Speaker 1: with blonde hair made a notable pair.

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Speaker 2: So that covers a Chiefs and Sebastian's whereabouts from their

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Speaker 2: arrival to the movie theater around nine forty pm to

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Speaker 2: at least ten oh eight pm when the projector is

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Speaker 2: shoe was fixed. Meanwhile, a thief's neighbors, Mark Sidell and

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Speaker 2: Julie Rackley, who lived on either side of the Rafae household,

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Speaker 2: whose houses were so close in fact, that they had

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Speaker 2: complained sometime of the volume of the Rafae's TV. They

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Speaker 2: independently reported and later went on to testify that they

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Speaker 2: heard the exact same sounds, describing them as a hammering

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Speaker 2: or banging sound, but hollow and muffled sounding, and they

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Speaker 2: heard those sounds comfortably in the window of time. When

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Speaker 2: Jose Martinez and Jesse Kaplan can place a tief in

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Speaker 2: Sebastian in the lobby of the movie theater, you.

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Speaker 1: Just can't be in two places at once. It's making

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Speaker 1: me crazy because you had just about as good of

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Speaker 1: an alibi as you could possibly have. So now you've

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Speaker 1: just seen the Lion King right, and you hit a

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Speaker 1: few other places. Just a typical night that millions of

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Speaker 1: teenagers have every weekend all over the country. Then you

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Speaker 1: go home and find yourself in a literal horror scene.

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Speaker 3: So we got out of the car, not expecting anything unusual,

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Speaker 3: walked into the living room, and I saw my mother

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Speaker 3: lying in that room, and I could see stain on

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Speaker 3: the carpet, and after that, I was in a daze.

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Speaker 3: I rushed upstairs. The fashion was rushing everywhere around too,

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Speaker 3: and it's a confusion of disbelief and bewilderment. I went

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Speaker 3: over to my dad's room. Even though the lights were off,

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Speaker 3: I could see what the Offsters would later describe as

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Speaker 3: it looked like a shotgun blast over the back wall

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Speaker 3: and it was. I was spinning around literally on my seat.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever really recovered from it. I

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Speaker 3: felt frightened. I felt completely disoriented and in shock. Sash

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Speaker 3: and I had just instinctively, I think, ran and ran outside,

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Speaker 3: and he had already called the police. I could hear

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Speaker 3: him calling, and as soon as the first police officer arrived,

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Speaker 3: Gary Rimando, he actually drove past us while we were

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Speaker 3: in the driveway, and we ran after them, trying to

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Speaker 3: flag him down, and he had to actually pound on

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Speaker 3: the trunk of the car because he was just driving off.

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Speaker 3: And he got out and yelled at us to sit

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Speaker 3: on the curb. I don't know whether he thought we

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Speaker 3: were perpetrators or something, or somehow involved, but Jerry Rauda

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Speaker 3: was very serious about us sitting down and being quiet,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't know what to do other than to

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Speaker 3: follow his directions. I think that changed the way everyone

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Speaker 3: else looked at us and our behavior afterwards. I think

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Speaker 3: the other detectives who came in with they were not

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Speaker 3: as emotional as we would expect, They were not as

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Speaker 3: concerned as we would expect. We gave them every cooperation

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Speaker 3: we could. We gave them all our clothes, their shoes,

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Speaker 3: my glasses, fingerprints and photographs. They did searches with lights,

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Speaker 3: and they did a gunshot residue chat. You know, give

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Speaker 3: them cartilage to search the house and do whatever else

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Speaker 3: they wanted to do. They recorded statements, and then they

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Speaker 3: bought us some sweats and jumped us off in the

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Speaker 3: w mortelle without a phone.

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Speaker 2: My assumption was always that they didn't want them to

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Speaker 2: call a lawyer or mister Burns to get advice on

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Speaker 2: what to do, but to keep them isolated.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so they've got you confined in the CD motel room,

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Speaker 1: poking and prodding you and Sebastian with a whirlwind of

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Speaker 1: questions and examinations that you submitted to voluntarily, which lasted

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Speaker 1: about fifty six hours and turned up exactly nothing.

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Speaker 2: Neither did the physical evidence that the crime scene incriminate

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Speaker 2: a Teeth or Sebastian, nor did the extensive testing that

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Speaker 2: a Teeth and Sebastian voluntarily submitted to afterward. There was

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Speaker 2: not a shred of bone, blood, tissue, or anything else

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Speaker 2: found in either boy's body or clothing, or in their hair.

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Speaker 2: The idea that you could just shower away all of

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Speaker 2: that blood evidence. It's pretty remote.

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Speaker 1: So they're pinning their hopes on the DNA test results

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Speaker 1: to incriminate you too, because they had nothing else. But

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Speaker 1: in the meantime, you're two teenage boys. I mean, let's

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Speaker 1: face it, the responsible adults in your lives here in America.

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Speaker 1: Your parents were simply gone, right, your sister was gone,

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Speaker 1: and your house was a crime scene. You had no

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Speaker 1: home here at all, right, nowhere to go, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: now put yourself in Sebastian's parents' shoes, right, they were

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Speaker 1: definitely going to try like hell to get you and

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Speaker 1: their son back to their home in Canada. And all

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Speaker 1: of this was happening while funeral arrangements were being made

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Speaker 1: by your extended family. So at the.

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Speaker 3: Time I didn't realize this, but my relatives were actually

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Speaker 3: flying in and coming into town, and they kept the

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Speaker 3: fact that that was happening from us. So that Ashian's

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Speaker 3: parents had contacted the Canadian consulates, and the consulates contacted

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Speaker 3: the police and informed themths if they wanted to return

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Speaker 3: us to Canada. And I left a message with the

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Speaker 3: Keechi Thompson saying that we would be leaving, and on

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Speaker 3: that very day, my relatives were in Seattle, but the

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Speaker 3: police were not disclosing to them where we were for

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Speaker 3: how to reach us, and they weren't telling us that

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Speaker 3: they were even in town. And so on the day

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Speaker 3: that I went back to Canada, I didn't even know

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Speaker 3: what the police did know, which was that the funeral

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Speaker 3: was already being arranged completely without my knowledge or participation.

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Speaker 3: And this would later be something that the police would

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Speaker 3: then lie about and describe us as fleeing the country.

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Speaker 2: They were saying, as I think a couple of wise

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Speaker 2: guys who'd gotten away with something.

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Speaker 1: So now they want to paint you as fleeing, right,

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Speaker 1: even though you had given them everything they'd ask for

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Speaker 1: over the course of those fifty six hours in that

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Speaker 1: CD motel room. Now, one of the other bizarre things

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Speaker 1: about the prosecution's theory in this case was that a

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Speaker 1: thief had wanted the insurance money from his parents. But

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Speaker 1: even that you would need to suspend a huge amount

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Speaker 1: of disbelief because of the level of violence in these murders,

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Speaker 1: and particularly of a chief's father, who the police estimated

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Speaker 1: was bashed in the head forty times with a baseball

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Speaker 1: pat and indications were and are that the first blow

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Speaker 1: was the blow that ended doctor Affee's life. So why

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Speaker 1: would a loving son who now supposedly suddenly out for

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Speaker 1: money commit a murder in that manner?

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Speaker 2: The amount of violence done could only have indicated fanaticism

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: So now, while there was still waiting on the DNA

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Speaker 1: to incriminate you, or so they thought, more evidence was

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Speaker 1: pouring in pointing instead toward religious extremists. You'll remember doctor

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Speaker 1: Refee's efforts to improve relations with other religious communities and

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Speaker 1: his controversial views on Kibla okay. So in the days

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Speaker 1: following the murders, the Bellevue Police received not one, not two,

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Speaker 1: but three tips from other law enforcement agencies. First Constable

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Speaker 1: Jelinis with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police told them that

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Speaker 1: a confidential informant had warned them of a man who

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Speaker 1: had been offered twenty thousand dollars to kill an East

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Speaker 1: Indian family that had previously lived in Vancouver but had

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Speaker 1: moved to Bellevue. The informant became aware of this two

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Speaker 1: days before the murders were committed. Jelina's contacted investigators Robert

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Speaker 1: Thompson and Jeff Gomes the lead Bellevue officers on the case,

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Speaker 1: who then traveled to Vancouver and knocked on the door

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Speaker 1: of the man in questions home twice. He didn't answer

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Speaker 1: either time, and the officers returned to the US without

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Speaker 1: making any contact. Secondly, the Intelligence division of the Seattle

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Speaker 1: Police had information that Al Fukra, a radical and milletant organization,

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Speaker 1: may have been involved in the homicides, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: bother to follow up on that tip either, and five

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Speaker 1: days after the murders, another tip came in from the FBI.

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Speaker 1: Right so our CMP Royalty Mounted Police, Seattle Police Intelligence,

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Speaker 1: and now the freaking FBI. They delivered an informant to

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Speaker 1: Bellevue and he told them that a Milletant Islamic faction

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Speaker 1: to which he was privy, said that doctor Tarique Reffey

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Speaker 1: should die because of his beliefs and teachings about the Qur'an.

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Speaker 1: The informant also said that in the days after the murders,

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Speaker 1: a member of this same Milletant faction came to his

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Speaker 1: house and was worried that he the informant had seen

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Speaker 1: a baseball bat that the Milletan and others had had

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Speaker 1: in their car. Because of this concern. The FBI informant

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Speaker 1: came to believe that the murder weapon was a bat. Now,

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Speaker 1: the Bellevue police already knew the murder weapon was a

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Speaker 1: bad but that fact critically had not been made public yet.

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Speaker 3: This guy was a reliable FBI informant. The police were

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Speaker 3: given full addresses, names, places of work, telephone numbers, and

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Speaker 3: they just ignored him. They didn't even spell the names

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Speaker 3: that he gave them correctly. All of this information never

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Speaker 3: came to our attention till years later because they said

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Speaker 3: that they didn't have to turn over discovery until we

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Speaker 3: were in the United States, and so for years we

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Speaker 3: didn't know about any of this information and we couldn't

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Speaker 3: investigate it.

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Speaker 1: So if all of these credible and compelling leads couldn't

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Speaker 1: break through the Bellevue investigator's tunnel vision, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go ahead and guess that conflicting DNA test results probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have made a difference either. So let's dive in.

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Speaker 1: Investigators found DNA mixed with doctor Faye's blood in the

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Speaker 1: downstairs shower, DNA mixed in with a bloody footprint in

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Speaker 1: the garage made with doctor off Fay's blok blood, as

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Speaker 1: well as a coarse body hair or pubic hair on

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Speaker 1: the parents fitted sheet where Doctorfae's body was found. But

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Speaker 1: none of the other DNA profiles that were discovered at

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Speaker 1: the crime scene matched the DNA of the victims to

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Speaker 1: Reek Sultana or Basma Rafae or the supposed alleged culprits

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Speaker 1: in the case, Sebastian and a Tief. So there's DNA

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Speaker 1: evidence at the crime scene clearly excluding a Tief and

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Speaker 1: Sebastian and pointing at unknown perpetrators.

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Speaker 3: One more thing about god Hare that you mentioned the

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Speaker 3: texts initially when they found it, that it was in

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Speaker 3: a position that could only be explained if it had

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Speaker 3: been left by the killer. And they kept saying that

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Speaker 3: right until the DNA proofs that hadn't belong to Sebastian.

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Speaker 1: Ormy more inconvenient truths. So if they had no evidence

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Speaker 1: of your guilt, which they didn't, in fact, they had

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Speaker 1: evidence of someone else's guilt, but they were fixed on

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Speaker 1: getting new in and I've go ahead and make shit up. Right.

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Speaker 1: They pointed to books you had read and philosophy papers,

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Speaker 1: saying that you two guys loved Nietzsche and subscribe to

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Speaker 1: his superman theory, and in their slanted understanding, implied that

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Speaker 1: you and Sebastian were capable of callously taking what you

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Speaker 1: wanted from those who you deemed weaker than yourselves. Then

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Speaker 1: they went after your alibi, saying the Sebastian ordered wine

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Speaker 1: at the restaurant you had gone through that night, the

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00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: keg so specifically so that he would be carded right

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Speaker 1: in order to solidify his alibi. But what's wrong with

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Speaker 1: this theory?

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Speaker 3: Well, we had Jake id So, like most of under

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Speaker 3: age kids at that time, to get into clubs and

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Speaker 3: dig order drinks. But you know it had a different

348
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Speaker 3: name on it, Edward Montero Eduardo Mantero. So I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure how that would help us exactly.

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Speaker 1: Right, for that theory about being remembered to hold water,

351
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Speaker 1: you'd have to have id that wasn't fake, not idea

352
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 1: that was. And then they attacked your alibi again, saying

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Speaker 1: that you left the larger than usual tip just to

354
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Speaker 1: be remembered. Okay, fifteen dollars on a bill of nine

355
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Speaker 1: to fifty And if you think that's too much, and

356
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 1: of course it is more than twenty percent, but try

357
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 1: asking your server or bartender what they usually do when

358
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Speaker 1: they go out. They're usually very generous to one another.

359
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Speaker 1: And Sebastian used to be a server.

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Speaker 3: Sebastian like to leave that he had been a server.

361
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Speaker 3: He knew how much that meant to them. You can

362
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Speaker 3: tell it server to keep the change. You're not going

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Speaker 3: to just give them a fifty cent tip because you

364
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 3: have ten even in your bills of nine fifty. You're

365
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Speaker 3: going to give them the next billion house.

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Speaker 1: Which I guess in this case was a five. But

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Speaker 1: obviously this is all really weak and with the physical

368
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: evidence all pointing away from you, plus all the media

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Speaker 1: hype around your case, they had to come up with something.

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Speaker 1: So it's January nineteen ninety five, months after the murders,

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Speaker 1: you're both in Canada and Bellevue Investigators' list the help

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Speaker 1: of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to perform a sting

373
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Speaker 1: operation that was illegal in the US but legal in Canada,

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Speaker 1: known as Mister Big.

375
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Speaker 2: The Myster Big technique involves undercover officers playing roles as gangsters,

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Speaker 2: thus gaining the trust of a police target. They seduce

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Speaker 2: the target with a gangster mystique and the promise of

378
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Speaker 2: big money schemes. They eventually ask about the target's criminal

379
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Speaker 2: history under the guise of knowing whether any past criminal

380
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: behavior poses a risk to future criminal operations that they're

381
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Speaker 2: going to perform together. For example, you know, will you

382
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: turn on me if you get pinched? And then, as

383
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: with other methods of eliciting confessions and Jason, your network

384
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 2: has covered this extensively on your show, wrongful conviction, false Confessions.

385
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Speaker 2: The results are a mixed bag, some reliable confessions, some false,

386
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Speaker 2: and the most reliable way one can tell the difference

387
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 2: is by the evidence that does or does not corroborate

388
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Speaker 2: the statements made by police targets.

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Speaker 1: Now, in this case, the operation begins with setting up

390
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Speaker 1: electronic and visual surveillance of the targets, which include the

391
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Speaker 1: tief Sebastian and their friend Jimmy Miyoshi.

392
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Speaker 2: And it's important to note that the authorities knew Jimmy

393
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: wasn't even in any area at the time of the murders,

394
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Speaker 2: but they were leaning on him as an alleged accomplish.

395
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Speaker 2: Either before or after the killing. They would take either.

396
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Speaker 1: So the game begins and over time there's a chance meeting,

397
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Speaker 1: though well it's not really a chance meeting between Sebastian

398
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Speaker 1: and these undercover agents, and a slow seduction process begins

399
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,479
Speaker 1: into making him believe in their assumed criminal identities. They

400
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: let Sebashian in on some stage meetings and some fake

401
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 1: victimless scenarios like moving a car he had been told

402
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: was stolen, and then with a mix, a toxic mix

403
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: of trust and fear, they hoped to elicit a confession.

404
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: So this seduction process went on for about four months,

405
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: and there's been talk about the murder in Bellevue, but

406
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: Sebastian repeatedly denied it. Then around May through July, things

407
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: start to come to a head.

408
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 3: I had nothing he would be under carfer officers. First

409
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: I knew Sash was getting involved in them. He was

410
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 3: telling me about it, But by May sixth Sebashian didn't

411
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 3: want to have anything to do with him. Every time

412
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Speaker 3: Sebastian tried to say I don't want to have anything

413
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 3: to do with you, he would say, who's you going

414
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 3: to give up when the police come and arrest you?

415
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: And I know from my inside information that the police

416
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 3: are come to arrest you, And Sebashian would say, well,

417
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: they must be fabricating something, they must be misrepresenting something.

418
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Speaker 3: It can't be the case because we didn't do the crime.

419
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: Now, if you're speaking to a police officer, you have

420
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: the right not to incriminate yourself. You can plead the

421
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: Fifth Amendment. But if you're speaking to gangsters, it's far

422
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 2: more intimidating because you can't plead the Fifth Amendment. With

423
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: these gangsters. You're afraid of what they're going to do

424
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Speaker 2: to you or your family.

425
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Speaker 3: And it didn't matter whether we thought or we were

426
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: worried that we were about to be arrested, because what

427
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 3: mattered was what mister Big believed. And he kept saying

428
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 3: that what she believed is that we were being arrested,

429
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Speaker 3: and that our being arrested was putting him in danger.

430
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 3: And he says, I'm not going to take the risk

431
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: of going down. You have to rem remember that you

432
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 3: have to satisfy me that I can get rid of

433
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: all the evidence sits down there so that you don't

434
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: go to jail. So you're not putting my organization at rip.

435
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: It's a corner that they paint you into from which

436
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: there is no escape unless you do what they say.

437
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: And to be clear, a thief in Sebastian never really

438
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: came out and said, we killed them, and this is

439
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: how we did it. What passed as a confession came

440
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 2: from the bogus answers to the undercover agent's questions, questions

441
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: that were aimed at filling in the large gaps in

442
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 2: this investigation that had so far pointed away from a

443
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: tief in Sebastian, for example, about how they had covered

444
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 2: their tracks, and these bogus answers that a tief in

445
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 2: Sebastian ended up giving to these questions are what ended

446
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: up passing for an admission of guilt.

447
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: For example, when Sebastian was asked about what you guys

448
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: did with the bloody clothing, he said, we threw them

449
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: in a dumpster, which one I can't remember. Well what

450
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: happens when they find it panicked? He came up with, uh, no,

451
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: we threw each piece of clothing out in different dumpsters.

452
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 1: You know, so two socks, two shoes, pants, underwear, shirt,

453
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: that's seven pieces of clothing each. How many dumpsters could

454
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: you even find in Bellevue, right? You need to have

455
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: a Google map of dumpsters, which didn't exist back then.

456
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: These are just childish lies. The next time, the undercover

457
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: agent asked him about the bloody clothing. He changed his

458
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: story again. No, no, no, we did it naked, so

459
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: there were no bloody clothes. But then there were also

460
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: no bloody footprints leading to the shower or blood that

461
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: had dripped off of their supposedly naked bodies. It's a miracle.

462
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: Then later on, when they ask you, a Tief, the

463
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: same question about the disposal of any bloody clothing, you said, oh,

464
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: we just hucked them out the window. So now that's

465
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: four different fucking stories just about the clothing. Then there's

466
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: the utter nonsense with the murder weapon, the baseball bat.

467
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: Right where'd you get it? Well, first, s Abashian said,

468
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: it was just laying around the refe household. I mean,

469
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you can speak for all pakistanisatief.

470
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: But isn't cricket more of the usual thing.

471
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 3: We played cricket and pakoshon. I've never played baseball in

472
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: any form whatsoever.

473
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: The next time, Sebastian comes up with a completely different lie,

474
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: which is that you guys bought the bat the murder

475
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: weapon in a sporting goods store, but which store you

476
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: couldn't remember where, doesn't know.

477
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: The undercover agents also asked Sebastian about how they were

478
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: able to commit these murders if they were at the

479
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: movie theater, and he said, oh, we left by the

480
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: side door. And no one ever bothered to demonstrate how

481
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 2: impossible it would be to commit the murders during the

482
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: time frame supplied by the neighbors. So again, another implausible

483
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: answer is given to please these gangsters.

484
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: So there's only one reason why these stories contradicted the

485
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: facts and each other, and that's because they were all

486
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: made up stories. You would have literally needed to rehearse

487
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: this because there's no way that the two different minds

488
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: are going to come up with the same story independently

489
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: when the whole story is made up out of whole cloth, right.

490
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: I mean, we tried her best to provide a plausible story,

491
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 3: but yes, we didn't come up with perfect stories because

492
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: we didn't commit the murder. Then we couldn't keep our

493
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: stories straight because we didn't practice them well enough.

494
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: Okay, So eventually you're arrested July thirty first, nineteen ninety five.

495
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: You and Sebastador charged with three counts of aggravated first

496
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: degree murder, and your friend Jimmy Miyoshi was charged with

497
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: conspiracy to commit murder, and you guys were locked up

498
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: in maximum security pre trial facilities in BC, British Columbia

499
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: for six years, and in the fall of ninety five,

500
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: Jimmy Miyoshi was threatened by the RCMP with a suggestion

501
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: that he might face the death penalty if he didn't

502
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: tell them what they wanted to hear, which is that

503
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: you guys were guilty. So understandably, scared for his life,

504
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: Jimmy signed an immunity agreement from his charge of conspiracy

505
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: to commit murder and provided a number of statements incriminated

506
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: you guys. But again we see the same pattern. Each

507
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: statement contradicted the last one, and each one of them

508
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: contradicted the physical evidence at the crime scene. So how

509
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: many times did Jimmy initially deny that you and Sebastian

510
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: had anything to do with it?

511
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: Jimmy denied it twenty four times, and even after he

512
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: made statements that were necessary to get an immunity agreement,

513
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: he contacted our attorneys and he tried to find a

514
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: way to tell the truth without being punished for it.

515
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: Proscutors got out he was working for Lehman Brothers and

516
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: put pressure on Lehman brothers, he was totally was going

517
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 3: to be fired unless he fulfilled his obligations to the prosecutors,

518
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 3: and then he was totally might face murder charges in additions.

519
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: So Jimmy did what everyone does, I think, in a

520
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: system that's designed to make people say what the prosecutors

521
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: want you to say, Jimmy did, in fact go through

522
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: with fulfilling his agreements, and then Leman fired him anyway.

523
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: So, after six years in a Canadian maximum security facility,

524
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: in March of two thousand and one, you were finally

525
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: extradited to the United States, and in the lead up

526
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: to trial in January of two thousand and three, something

527
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: both horrifying and what should have been like the final

528
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: alarm sounding your innocence occurred. If you're a member Atif's father,

529
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: doctor Refai, co founded and led a Muslim group in

530
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: Vancouver that sought to build bridges with other faith communities. Well,

531
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: his co founder and successor in leading that group, Riasad

532
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: Ali Khan, was murdered.

533
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: He was murdered on his doorstep very close to the

534
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: eve of the trial. Maybe it was a message, the

535
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: killing of Riyasa d Ali Khan that a we still

536
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: are here, and we're going to do what we can

537
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: to keep these religions apart and be you have the

538
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: wrong people, You're prosecuting the wrong people.

539
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: Finally, the trial began November twenty third, two thousand and three,

540
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: over eight years after the original arress. But the trial

541
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: in some ways was as messed up as the rest

542
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: of this nightmare scenario. I mean when I say that

543
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: the trial Judge Charles Murtell ruled key evidence and admissible,

544
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: so the jury never learned about the leads that were

545
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: provided to the bellev Police by the FBI or the

546
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: Seattle Intelligence Division informants. And those leads, for obvious reasons,

547
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: would have been essential to prove your innocence as well

548
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: as introduced the element of religious extremism that would have

549
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: again been absolutely compelling to any jury. But they weren't

550
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: permitted to hear that. And they also weren't permitted to

551
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: hear from doctor Richard Leo. He's a leading expert on

552
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: false confessions. He had agreed to present information regarding the

553
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: false confessions that took place in order to provide the

554
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: jury with relevant and reliable social scientific information about the

555
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: psychologe logical phenomenon of interrogation and false confession so the

556
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: jury could make an informed decision. The judge somehow determined

557
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: that it was quote the province of this jury to

558
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: decide whether or not, in their common experience and common sense,

559
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: these statements made by these defendants of these undercover officers

560
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: are voluntary or involuntary. You were doomed at that point.

561
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: You were doomed.

562
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 3: All the trial council, including my own and in the judge,

563
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 3: were convinced that everything could be admitted from Canada on

564
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 3: a silver platter without any American constitual scrutiny. You were

565
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 3: wrong about that, but that wasn't discovered till years after

566
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: the trial.

567
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 1: Wow. So this technique that was illegal in the States

568
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: but legal at the time in Canada was just sort

569
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: of greenlit right in. And that is, of course the

570
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: only evidence in this case against you. I say that because,

571
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, the prosecution did present the ridiculous brain

572
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: fart about the fake ideas, the large tip, and the

573
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: nietzscha nonsense to try to bolster the false confessions, which

574
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: they knew ran directly counter to the physical evidence, DNA evidence,

575
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: alibi witnesses, and eyewitness accounts of the neighbors, as well

576
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: as the leads that they didn't bother to follow up

577
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: on involving religious extremists who were in all likelihood the

578
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: real killers in this case. But it's really hard to

579
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: overcome confession evidence, no matter how many inconsistencies and contradictions

580
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: there are. So now, at this point, it's nearly ten

581
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: freaking years after your family was murdered, and the jury

582
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: came to what was probably a predictable conclusion, a guilty verdict,

583
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: and you and Sebasha were sentenced to serve three consecutive

584
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: life terms without the possibility of parole. Tell us about

585
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: that moment.

586
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: I don't think anything's as bad as the moment that

587
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: I came home that night, but but that was certainly

588
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: a close seconds. Even after everything that happened in this

589
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: I didn't expect it. I believe somehow the jury would

590
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: still be able to see that we were INNO since

591
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: I was shocked.

592
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've already been in jail for a decade.

593
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: Now you're sent to prison, but you've continued, you know,

594
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: your dedication to constantly learning and improving and growing.

595
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 3: I was very fortunate to find myself amongst some prisoners

596
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 3: who were really interested in education, and a great volunteer

597
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: named Carole Estus who wanted to found a University Beyond

598
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: bars program here, and so I was able to spend

599
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: some of my time actually contributing to that and helping

600
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: other people learn, which was felt satisfying and meaningful.

601
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: And now you know multiple college education programs. Did you

602
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: still working on and through the university beyond bars On

603
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: loop on your undergraduate thesis, honor thesis from film, philosophy

604
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: and literature. It's extraordinary. It's so much more than so

605
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: many people on the outside have or ever will do.

606
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: So let's talk about your appeals and your prospects for

607
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: free them.

608
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 2: A Chief's appeals were underway by the time we got involved.

609
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: I had seen a film made by Sebastian's sister Tiffany

610
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: and Reuben Hurricane Carter and I were obviously floored by

611
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: the facts here, and we joined David Coke, the appeals

612
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: lawyer in support of Sebastian and a teeth and I

613
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: actually attended his state appeal to a three judge panel

614
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: in Seattle. And this was early on. I mean, we

615
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: thought this would be a slam dunk. There's no forensic evidence,

616
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: No alternative suspects allowed to be brought into the courtroom.

617
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 2: There's no allowance of Richard Leo, who was an expert

618
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: on false confessions, and Michael Levine, who was an expert

619
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 2: on FBI sting operations. He wasn't allowed into the courtroom either.

620
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: It was as if Judge Martell had simply decided, We're

621
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: going to convict these guys in a kangaroo court. But

622
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: it didn't seem to matter how much sense our arguments

623
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: made as a chief in Sebastian were seen as guilty

624
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: in the state of Washington, and the media coverage really

625
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 2: made sure they were never going to receive a fair shake.

626
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: And then Atief later got married to Loretta Fisher, who

627
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: worked tirelessly on his behalf, and more appeals were filed

628
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: on the back of her work, also to no avail.

629
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: Then the Supreme Court of Canada ruled to limit the

630
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: admissibility of evidence obtained through the Mister Big operation. So

631
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: now even in Canada, where this evidence was conjured up,

632
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: the admissibility of these confessions was brought into question. Where

633
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: in the absence of forensic evidence, as was the case here,

634
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: these so called confessions would not now be any longer admissible,

635
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: and that should have been huge, but sadly it was not.

636
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: It was a period when I didn't know where to turn, really,

637
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: and out of the blue, Kellie Laudenberg decided to make

638
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 3: my case the first one in her series of false

639
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: confession documentaries, and Ken told me that someone who had

640
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 3: watched the confession tapes had become so indignant and so

641
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 3: impassionate about the case that she reached out to the

642
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: person that everyone who knows about him thinks about first,

643
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: and that's you. Jason.

644
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: Okay, so I know who you're talking about, But are

645
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: you at liberty or do you feel comfortable telling us

646
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: about this amazing mystery woman.

647
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 3: So Laken is someone with whom I didn't know her

648
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 3: before last year, and now she's become someone very special

649
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 3: to me to my talk every day. And it's because

650
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 3: of her that you got involved, and of course it's

651
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 3: because of her getting you involved that David Kim got

652
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: involved in. David Kim has been a force of nature

653
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: in my case. She wrote a seven hundred and two

654
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 3: page analysis of this case that found things in it

655
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: that even I hadn't found, And I thought I'd looked

656
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 3: over absolutely everything in my case. And then because he

657
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 3: thought I needed the best of palat attorney in the

658
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 3: United States, he reached out to Tom Golfian, who's considered

659
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: by everyone to be the tenth Supreme Court Justice, and

660
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 3: certainly Google chose him as their lawyer when they needed

661
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 3: to win a case of the Supreme Court of the

662
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 3: United States. And it was a miracle to me when

663
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 3: Tom got in, and then lar Zarowski, who leads the

664
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: Washington Innocence Project, became involved in my case. All these

665
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 3: things just have been building over the last year and

666
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 3: that has completely transformed how I view the future.

667
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: Now amen to that, and now we're all awaiting the

668
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: Habeas Corpus proceedings in the Ninth Circuit Court in the

669
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: United States District for the Western District of Washington. So

670
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff going on. We're going to

671
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: keep our audience surprised a bit. We're going to link

672
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: to the petition use your power, Let's help a Chief

673
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 1: and Sebastian get home. There's also a website rerafe Burns

674
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: Appeal dot com. All of it will be linked in

675
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: the bio so Ken and Natief. This is the part

676
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: of the show that I know I look forward to

677
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: the most that I think our audience does as well.

678
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: It's called closing arguments. It's the part of the show

679
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: where I, first of all have the privilege of thanking

680
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: both of you for joining me and sharing this unbelievable story.

681
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: And how this works is I'm going to turn my

682
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: microphone off and leave yours both on, and kick back

683
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: in my chair and just listen to whatever you have

684
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: to say anything. We haven't covered anything you want to

685
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: say at all about anything. And of course, a Tief,

686
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: we're going to save you the best for last, all

687
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: due respect to you, Ken. Yeah, so Ken, let's go

688
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: to you first, and then you can just hand the

689
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: mic off to a Tief and I'm just going to

690
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 1: sit back and listen.

691
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 2: So, as I said before, this case came to us

692
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: as a result of the movie that Sebastian Burns's sister

693
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 2: did back in two thousand and seven. It was at

694
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 2: the Vancouver International Film Festival and I happened to be

695
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: in the audience. I saw this and realized that the

696
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: Burnses were in the audience. They had been introduced, So

697
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: I went up to them and I said, I'm working

698
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 2: for Reuben Hurricane Carter, and I think this case would

699
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: be of interest to him. Do you want some help?

700
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 2: And of course they did, and so I got this

701
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: case in front of Ruben and he was infuriated by

702
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: the way a pair of teenagers had been manipulated by

703
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: people who should have known better but were trying to

704
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: burnish their own reputations. And to me, this story is

705
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: really about friendships, both the one that a Tief and

706
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: Sebastian shared as well as the one between the Muslim

707
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: community and other faith based communities in Canada that doctor

708
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: Tariq Refae and later Riyasaid Ali Khan tried to foster

709
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 2: an endeavor for which they paid with their lives. Well,

710
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: the potential of these two young friends and the greater

711
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: friendship between those communities both were snuffed out.

712
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: A Tief refe over to you, Nasham, and I have

713
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: been wrongly in person for over twenty seven years and the.

714
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 3: Same age today my parents were when I was a kid,

715
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: when they were raising me. I imagine looking back in my

716
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 3: life with their eyes and every day is going to

717
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 3: struggle to keep going. And I still hardly believe all

718
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: that has happened. But what I feel most now is

719
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: gratitude amazingly. When I was a child, my parents told

720
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 3: me stories about the hard times they had in their

721
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 3: early years in Vancouver when my dad was looking for work,

722
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 3: how they would eat boiled potatoes off newspapers, sad on

723
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 3: the floor. And I understood when I was a kid

724
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 3: that life would involve struggles, but I didn't fathom them

725
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 3: just how much the caring and generosity of others would

726
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 3: need for my life, that this ground swell of support

727
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: would make it possible for my struggle to matter. Still today,

728
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 3: I owe so many people so much, not only Reuben

729
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 3: and Ken, Tom and you, Jason, all of you people

730
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 3: who were like Oscar Schindler's. You know, in our day

731
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 3: and age of local convictions and massive fruserations, that feeling

732
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: of gratitude is what carries me through every day, and

733
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 3: I'm just grateful to have had the opportunity to feel

734
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: that love and care for someone for some small life.

735
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. Please support your

736
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: local innocence organizations and go to the links in our

737
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: bio to see how you can help. I'd like to

738
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburn

739
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: and Kevin wardis The music on this show, as always,

740
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

741
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on

742
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: Twitter at wrong Conviction, and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

743
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

744
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one