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Speaker 1: There are few living people who have had as great

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Speaker 1: an impact on how the world stands today as Henry Kissinger.

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Speaker 1: He has advised American president since the nineteen sixties, stood

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Speaker 1: toe to toe with the likes of Chairman Mao Goldomeyir

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Speaker 1: and Vladimir Putin, changed the fortunes of countries in ways

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Speaker 1: that still admired, condemned, and debated. Seventy years ago, as

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Speaker 1: a young man at Harvard, Kissinger wrote that in the

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Speaker 1: life of every person, there comes a point when he

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Speaker 1: realizes that, out of all the seemingly limitless possibilities of

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Speaker 1: his youth, he has in fact become one actuality. One's

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Speaker 1: journey across the meadows has indeed followed a regular path.

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Speaker 1: Having just celebrated his one hundredth birthday, you might imagine

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Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger's path is now set. In fact, he is

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Speaker 1: plainly still involved in public life, still talking to leaders

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Speaker 1: around the world. His legacy can be felt from Cuba too.

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Speaker 1: But we've broken this interview into three geographic parts. Europe

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Speaker 1: where he was born, the United States where he found

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Speaker 1: power and fame, and Asia, which he transformed. And then

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Speaker 1: we have a more personal epilogue to do with that legacy.

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Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger was born in nineteen twenty three in the

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Speaker 1: German town of Foth. Two years later, Adolf Hitler came

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Speaker 1: to the town to denounce its Jewish citizens. I began

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Speaker 1: by asking Henry Kissinger how his first fifteen years of

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Speaker 1: persecution and chaos only ended when his family escaped to

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Speaker 1: America in nineteen thirty eight has shaped his worldview.

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Speaker 2: I've spent my youth within a disintegrating society, the German

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Speaker 2: I was collapsing into the Hitler period that gradually, in

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Speaker 2: each election the n the Period party gained, and then

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Speaker 2: when Hitler finally came to power, I, together with all

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Speaker 2: my family and all the people I knew well, became

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Speaker 2: part of a discriminated minority living in a town in

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Speaker 2: which they were science at every public place that Jews

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Speaker 2: are not welcome here, and at the entrance to every

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Speaker 2: town when you ended it by train or car or anywhere.

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Speaker 2: So that was my youth.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that your view of the world of

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Speaker 1: something that needed some degree of order?

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Speaker 2: Well, I believe that for a society or for a

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Speaker 2: group in which people lived stability or to pre condition

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Speaker 2: for creativity. Now that's not a sold I had then

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Speaker 2: sill precisely, but stability meant a great deal.

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Speaker 1: The next time you came back to Germany was in

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Speaker 1: the war. You came back as a soldier. You fought

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Speaker 1: in the Battle of the Bulge, You saw the concentration camps,

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Speaker 1: you helped, you took part in this of the rounding

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Speaker 1: up of Nazis. All by the age of like twenty

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Speaker 1: four to twenty five. That is a hinterland that very

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Speaker 1: few people in modern politics have. If you look at

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Speaker 1: the people you dealt with De gaul Mau, all those

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Speaker 1: people that they had seen warfare.

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Speaker 2: Well. I came back to Germany as a rivalman in

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Speaker 2: the eighty fourth inf Division of the US Army, and

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Speaker 2: so I saw war in its most immediate form, under

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Speaker 2: circumstances in which you have fellowship with your fellow soldiers,

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Speaker 2: it's your hope of survival HM and everything depends on it.

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Speaker 2: And I was lucky that my fellow soldiers of that

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Speaker 2: period were from northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin. Uh it's

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Speaker 2: called the rail Splitter Division after Lincoln, and so that

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Speaker 2: was the environment. So then as the battle near the

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Speaker 2: German border, after the bat during the Battle of the bouts.

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Speaker 2: I was transferred to intelligence, which was still at the front,

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Speaker 2: but not right in it for two miles back at

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Speaker 2: the in the civilian population. But so I saw the

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Speaker 2: impact of authoritarianism and totalitarianism in my youth and of

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Speaker 2: war in the next period. And so it was an

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Speaker 2: experience which it's so elemental that it becomes part of you, uh,

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Speaker 2: because it shows both the dangers but also the sense

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Speaker 2: of unity of of a community when when they believe

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Speaker 2: in fundamental We know today that UH, German tanks were

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Speaker 2: probably better than our tent, but you could never convince

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Speaker 2: American told to it, because they were convinced that if

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Speaker 2: better tanks could be built, we'd be building. And I've

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Speaker 2: never forgotten that for.

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Speaker 1: Most of your life you were dealing with world leaders

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Speaker 1: who had had had somewhat similar experiences. You could argue,

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Speaker 1: but they'd seen combat. But the last American president to

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Speaker 1: be in that state was the first President Bush. You

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Speaker 1: look around the leaders of the Western world. Now, they're

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Speaker 1: all people, some of them closer to my age than yours,

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Speaker 1: who've never seen those things. And I wonder whether you

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Speaker 1: think that makes a difference to world politics. Do you

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Speaker 1: worry about that with today's leaders.

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Speaker 2: I think that leaders who have not had any experience

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Speaker 2: of catastrophy or at the edge of catatrophy sometimes believe

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Speaker 2: they have more obstence than they really do, and that

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Speaker 2: they did characteristic of our time. It's fatterly in the.

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Speaker 1: It because the one exception possibly is Jijiping because he

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Speaker 1: went through the Cultural Revolution, didn't he so he would

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Speaker 1: have had some experience of the terror that you would

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Speaker 1: have seen.

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Speaker 2: Well. For t a crucial experience was living in a

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Speaker 2: cave with it. Further after further Red Army leader was

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Speaker 2: purged by Mao, and in his conversations before he became brigided,

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Speaker 2: he would refer to the fact that this experience made

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Speaker 2: him strong.

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Speaker 1: As you said, you grew up in this period of

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Speaker 1: chaos and disintegration. You are seen to be somebody who

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Speaker 1: wants to does not want Russia if it loses the

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Speaker 1: war in Ukraine, to be overly punished. Is that in

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Speaker 1: part because you saw what happened to Germany. The Germany

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Speaker 1: before the First World War was a very seemed a

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Speaker 1: very proud, successful country. The best university is the best,

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Speaker 1: all these things, and then humiliation and disintegration follows. Do

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Speaker 1: you worry about that.

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Speaker 2: With Russia. I worry about the fact there has been

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Speaker 2: an integral part of European history for six hundred years,

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Speaker 2: and in a very special way, because it is infinitely

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Speaker 2: larger than any European m country and it has always

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Speaker 2: been part of Asia, the Middle East and Europe. That

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Speaker 2: the unique aspect of Russia in comparison to the European countries.

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Speaker 2: So it has been torn throughout its history between a

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Speaker 2: desire to become fully European and a fear of European

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Speaker 2: technical uh superiority or capacity. Europe will become more stable,

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Speaker 2: the world will become more stable when that accepts the

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Speaker 2: fact that it cannot conquer Europe, but as to remain

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Speaker 2: part of Europe by some sort of consensus as other

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Speaker 2: states do. But ad Mondrus is so crushed that it

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Speaker 2: sees its being a factor of international politics in other

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Speaker 2: regions and becomes a subject for European competition among the

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Speaker 2: various states. So it is important for Ukraine to be

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Speaker 2: preserved and for Ukraine to emerge from the war as

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Speaker 2: an autonomous, strong, in democratic country. We have substantially achieved

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Speaker 2: this objective hm by now UH it can still be

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Speaker 2: improved in terms of the borders of Ukraine. Uh in

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Speaker 2: the what I hope will be the concluding phases of

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Speaker 2: the war. But I would prefer to pursue fressure because

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Speaker 2: the dissolution of Russia or the red a reduction of

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Speaker 2: frassure to resentful impotence. Uh what said of a new

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Speaker 2: set of tensions?

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Speaker 1: Do you think Vladimir Putin is somebody who could live

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Speaker 1: with that parameter? You said you want a Russia that

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Speaker 1: doesn't that realizes where its borders are.

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Speaker 2: That's to remember two things about Vladimir Puden. That he is,

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Speaker 2: on one level, the inheritor of traditional Russia and therefore

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Speaker 2: has the tendencies towards a certain that I've described earlier.

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Speaker 2: But there's also uh a Vladimir Putin who grew up

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Speaker 2: in the seats of Leningrad in which a over half

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Speaker 2: of the population died of starvation. Uh and under under

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Speaker 2: constance read but he has translated that into never warning

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Speaker 2: European military power to be in easy leads of Saint

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Speaker 2: Petersburg and major cities like Moscow. So when the border

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Speaker 2: of Europe at the end of the war, which was

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Speaker 2: the d military border of Europe, which was in the

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Speaker 2: center of Europe moved to within three hundred miles of

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Speaker 2: Moscow and maybe fifty miles of Saint Petersburg. He reacted

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Speaker 2: very strongly, and as it turns out, at the edge

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Speaker 2: of your rationality.

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Speaker 1: You once said to me that Ladimer Putin was more

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Speaker 1: Dostoyevsky than Hitler. Do you still think of him in

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Speaker 1: that way?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think he's a Dostoyevsky type figure, be set

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Speaker 2: by ambivalences and unfulfillable aspirations, but not devoted to power

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Speaker 2: in the abstract, but very capable of hu using power

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Speaker 2: that it turned out he used it excessively in relationship

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Speaker 2: to U to Ukraine. I would like a Russia to

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Speaker 2: that recognizes that its relations to but to Europe have

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Speaker 2: to be based on agreement and the kind of consensus.

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Speaker 2: And I believe that this war will if it ended properly,

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Speaker 2: may make it achievable.

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Speaker 1: If it's ended on the terms you're describing. Do you

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Speaker 1: think Vladimir Putin can survive in power?

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Speaker 2: It's improbable.

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Speaker 1: On the other side of the fence. With the moment

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Speaker 1: we have, the Ukrainian counter offensive seems to begun. Do

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Speaker 1: you see that as the last offensive before you have

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Speaker 1: to move to diplomacy and peace talks of some sort.

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Speaker 2: Yea began to urge moving to its diplomat a year

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Speaker 2: ago when I urged that the various parties to the

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Speaker 2: conflict asked themselves how they want to end it, Not

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Speaker 2: that they would end it right at that point, but

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Speaker 2: that they would know what their political aims were. I

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Speaker 2: think that becomes increasingly important as time goes on. Lest

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Speaker 2: we wound up in a at a point where the

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Speaker 2: war becomes its own objective and where military operations and

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Speaker 2: military relations between powers uh dominate all of its geopolitical thinking.

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Speaker 2: And at that point, countries like China will have to become,

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Speaker 2: from their point of view, increasingly active. That would spread

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Speaker 2: it into able conflict.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that is actually the real danger,

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Speaker 1: that the Dombas doesn't become Europe's frontier with Russia, it

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Speaker 1: becomes sort of Europe's frontier with China, that Russia gets

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Speaker 1: driven back into the arms of China.

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Speaker 2: That it could happen because Rasia gets driven back, or

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Speaker 2: because Ratia collected and disintegrates. It's a functioning major or

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Speaker 2: tournament state, and therefore it requires thought in this current

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Speaker 2: faith which I support, I think we were correct and

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Speaker 2: resisting the attack on Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: We talked about China and Russia. One that could emerge

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Speaker 1: much more powerfully from this particular episode is Germany. Germany

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Speaker 1: is probably the country that's going to rebuild Ukraine. If

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Speaker 1: it happens, it may be involved in rebuilding Russia. And

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Speaker 1: within Europe. If you visit Spain, if you visit Italy,

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Speaker 1: you can feel that the frontier of Europe has been

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Speaker 1: dragged to the east, so the center of Europe is

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Speaker 1: now closer to Berlin, so to speak. And that Germany,

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Speaker 1: by the fact it's been involved in supplying more arms

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Speaker 1: and everything like that, that is it looks set to

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Speaker 1: become a bigger power in Europe. Do you agree with that?

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Speaker 1: Firstly and secondly do you think that Germany is ready

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Speaker 1: for that task?

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Speaker 2: I agree deadly. Which is the description of the transformation

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Speaker 2: of the gender of gravity in Europe. It's been inherent

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Speaker 2: since before World War One and was one of the

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Speaker 2: causes of World War One because of the refusal of

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Speaker 2: other countries to accept this reality, but also because of

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Speaker 2: the inability of Germany to understand the transformation of its

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Speaker 2: own posism. Because the leading country has to be an

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Speaker 2: example of moderation and risdom in balancing the interests of

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Speaker 2: all the countries if there are to be participants in

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Speaker 2: the system. And historically a Germany wanted to exercise its

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Speaker 2: potential by domination, and its tragedy has been after the

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Speaker 2: retirement of Pittmarck, the failure to learn this lesson, which

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Speaker 2: tracted into two training wards, which also the entire position

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Speaker 2: of Europe in the world. So now it has is

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Speaker 2: again in its position, and it has no leaders with

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Speaker 2: an experience of either the Nazi period or of the

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Speaker 2: war m so they have to construct its its by themselves,

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Speaker 2: and they're new there. In off, it's only a year

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Speaker 2: at all, and it is not a reflection on their abilities,

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Speaker 2: but the description of a new talent for them that

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Speaker 2: hasn't existed in that form before.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that also causes problems for the other

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Speaker 1: great powers? You know, you wrote a lot of history

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Speaker 1: about containing you know, first containing France, then containing Germany,

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Speaker 1: and now there is an issue if you are France.

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Speaker 2: Well, if Germany was in conflictory France since the Thirty

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Speaker 2: Years War in the seventeenth century, because French policy was

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Speaker 2: explicitly based on maintaining the balance of power within Central Europe,

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Speaker 2: which in practice meant maintaining a division of Germany between

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Speaker 2: mm competing states and friends, partly to mid states that

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Speaker 2: Germany made and Britain came to look at Germany as

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Speaker 2: a said to its sea power. So when the ball

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Speaker 2: fell the neither the British nor the French leader were

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Speaker 2: enthusiastic about the unification of Germany. But the reality is

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Speaker 2: that British privates in the eighties and seventies when Germany

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Speaker 2: was unified, it's the last made to European country to

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Speaker 2: be unified. In eighteen seventy one said this will have

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Speaker 2: a greater impact than different revolution. So we are at

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Speaker 2: this moment now when a nude structure of Europe has

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Speaker 2: to be created based on this reality. And I'm describing

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Speaker 2: the challenge here, not the I'm not saying that the

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Speaker 2: Germans have failed. Its new and it's a nude challenge

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Speaker 2: for this generation.

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Speaker 1: It's also a challenge on France and Britain. Very quickly

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Speaker 1: they followed very different paths, especially since Sewers. You know,

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Speaker 1: frances has very much defined itself, often in opposition to America,

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Speaker 1: and it's buried itself in the European Union. The British,

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Speaker 1: by contrast, have tended to stick with the Americans. And

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Speaker 1: now they are outside the European Union. And you and

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Speaker 1: I can argue about who's got things right over the

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Speaker 1: past fifty years, but we are where we are, and

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Speaker 1: I wonder you look at France and you look at Britain. Now,

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Speaker 1: who is better placed to go forward Britain outside the

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Speaker 1: europe Union, France inside it.

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Speaker 2: Psychologically Britain it's better placed because in the structure of

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Speaker 2: the world that one can imagine appearing, whatever Europe does

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Speaker 2: to its own construction it cooperation with America and putsing

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Speaker 2: parallel palatics with America will have to be an essential

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Speaker 2: component on it because by itself opposing all the other

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Speaker 2: mats of power centers. Uh. Europe is in a difficult

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Speaker 2: position to do that, and it may be impossible. So

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Speaker 2: Britain historically is better placed uh uh to do it. Uh.

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Speaker 2: Britain's problem is its connection, how to connect with Europe,

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Speaker 2: not how to connect with the United States. It it's

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Speaker 2: the history of the special partnership and an instinctive fear

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Speaker 2: in Britain that the danger comes from across the oceans

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Speaker 2: and uh ah comes from across the border, while in

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Speaker 2: Europe the instinctive fear is the danger comes from land invats.

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Speaker 2: So for Britain to link to Europe has turned out

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Speaker 2: to be not possible organically, so it now has to

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Speaker 2: be done by policy. And I think that so.

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Speaker 1: You actually, you actually think Britain, which I might disagree

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Speaker 1: with you on this, but you think that Britain is

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Speaker 1: sort of psychologically happier outside the European Union.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think it is, and I think it's also

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Speaker 2: a great opportunity for it to act as a link

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Speaker 2: between a unifying Europe and America. America has never been

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Speaker 2: true to itself unless it meant something beyond itself.

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Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger said those words about his adopted homeland in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. He first arrived in the United States

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty eight as a fifteen year old refugee.

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Speaker 1: I began the second part of our conversation about the

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Speaker 1: United States by asking, if his life story was uniquely American,

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Speaker 1: could he have achieved what he has done anywhere else?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely uniquely American. I was edited Dinner in Germany, where

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Speaker 2: the German Chancellor of the Democratic Germany was written and

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Speaker 2: the American ambrassador rather amazingly at the chancellor what would

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Speaker 2: have happened to me in Germany had survived period? And

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Speaker 2: he said, I would be a junior profetor in Munich

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Speaker 2: at Munich University.

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Speaker 1: That brings us very nice. That brings us very nicely

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Speaker 1: to the next phase of your life. You go to Harvard.

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Speaker 1: I think at different times of your life you had

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Speaker 1: taught about chemistry and being an accountant, which is a

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Speaker 1: wonderful image. But one of your mentors, Fritz Kramer, had

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Speaker 1: a phrase about you were you were musically tuned to history.

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Speaker 1: You go to Harvard and the other kind of great

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Speaker 1: figure of your youth, Bill Elliot, oppressor at Harvard, directs

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Speaker 1: you towards the philosophy of history rather than just history itself.

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Speaker 1: And that's where you get all the cant or the spinosa.

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Speaker 1: Is that a really important difference you You've always been

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Speaker 1: obsessed not as by history, but the ideas behind it.

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Speaker 2: Later on in life, my views and those of many

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Speaker 2: of the academic community at Harvard can be charitably described.

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Speaker 2: It's not parallel, uh, But in that period of my life,

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Speaker 2: which in a funny way was a second immigration into America, uh,

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Speaker 2: the first from Germany and the second from the army

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Speaker 2: mm uh. Havard played a very important role because it

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Speaker 2: gave me UH confident or inspiration, it's a better word,

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Speaker 2: into the direction I was sort of divis I did.

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Speaker 2: I was doing extremely well in chemistry, mostly based on memory,

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Speaker 2: and I went to see the head of the chemistry department.

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Speaker 2: His name was Professor Kisyakovsky, became a very well known

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Speaker 2: figure UH. And I asked him that I could mature

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Speaker 2: in chemistry, and he said, if you have to ask

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Speaker 2: me no and so this then. But I've I was

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Speaker 2: on that other codes already inwardly. It gave me the

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Speaker 2: confidence to do it. The philosophy, I was most interested

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Speaker 2: at first in philosophy, in theory of knowledge, in theory

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Speaker 2: of values HM. But history it's a way to combine

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Speaker 2: the inherent uncertainties of philosophy, inherent because so far no

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Speaker 2: absolute answers have ever been found by any civilization with

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Speaker 2: the results of what actually happened. And so as I progressed,

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Speaker 2: I progressed in development. I became very philosophy. History became

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Speaker 2: my dominance then, and I think if I read my

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Speaker 2: books that seem runs through all of them.

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Speaker 1: Where in your life is that the idea of the

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Speaker 1: philosophy of history most most the ideas be most challenged reality.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've said that history is interesting because you

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Speaker 1: get reality.

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Speaker 2: Life is torn between managing the presence and the evolution

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Speaker 2: of the presence, so that in individual lives and of

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Speaker 2: course magnified into society's lives. There's always the ambiguity that

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Speaker 2: emphasis on the presence leads to stagnation, and that therefore

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Speaker 2: everything else around you will outstrip that society. And so

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Speaker 2: how to strike that balance between ultimate values and what

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Speaker 2: reality imposes on you? A reality is never quite adequate,

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Speaker 2: but ultimate values are too absolute because they demand a

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Speaker 2: degree of imposition on others. How to stack that balance

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Speaker 2: is maybe it's maybe given to us. It's our insoluble

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Speaker 2: problem to keep our motivation at the appropriate level.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that quite interesting? That? Isn't that also the story

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Speaker 1: of American foreign policy? You have this, You've always argued

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Speaker 1: that there's a set of ideals that America wants to.

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Speaker 2: Go up to. It's a fetal problem for America. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because we have been as closed as it is possible

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Speaker 2: to be to be satisfied with where we are, and

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Speaker 2: we've been protected by too great oceans because whenever the

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Speaker 2: society in the almost every place else, every place else

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Speaker 2: was tempted to be excessively satisfied with itself, its neighbors

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Speaker 2: intruded on them. It was very difficult to do that

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Speaker 2: in America because of these oceans. But after World War

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Speaker 2: two and now increasingly so UH, and now with UH

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Speaker 2: artificial intelligence totally so. UH. We're part of an international

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Speaker 2: or global system, and it it goes beyond internationally, it

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Speaker 2: goes beyond its universal system, and we have simultaneously to

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Speaker 2: adjust to that and conduct the day to day policy.

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Speaker 2: UH with countries they're able to same situation, and with

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Speaker 2: other countries that grow up to our level of achievement

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Speaker 2: that never existed before.

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Speaker 1: You've always said America should balance a sort of shining

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Speaker 1: city on a hill complex with reality. And you look

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Speaker 1: at the last you look at the last Cold War,

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Speaker 1: and America won it by kind of singing a song

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Speaker 1: of liberty of those ideals, but also by doing really

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Speaker 1: basic things helping people, the Marshall Plan and things like that.

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Speaker 1: If you go to America's allies, they will say America

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Speaker 1: doesn't talk about those ideals any longer. It just talks

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Speaker 1: about America first, and in terms of trade deals and

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Speaker 1: things like that, America isn't you know, it's not even

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Speaker 1: doing trade deals with its allies in either Asia or Europe.

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Speaker 1: So that America, in a strange way, is more disconnected

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Speaker 1: from what it should be than it has been.

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Speaker 2: Well, actually, in fact, America, it's not more disconnected. It's

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Speaker 2: probably and m more connected than it's been mm in

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Speaker 2: what it's considered the great period of American history, except

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Speaker 2: that during the Marshall Plan at the end of World

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Speaker 2: War Two, all this was new, so it was in

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Speaker 2: a new experience and it was therefore it became very

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Speaker 2: significant in day to day thinking of policy makers. Now

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00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: policy makers are torn between and at that time we

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Speaker 2: had over fifty percent of the world's gross national product.

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Speaker 2: Now we are down to about twenty four percent, which

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Speaker 2: is still a huge percentage, and it's still a ex

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Speaker 2: even the influential percentage. But it requires us to be

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Speaker 2: more discriminating. So it looks as if we are drenching

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00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: the problem that bothers me. It's not right. Basically their entrenching,

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Speaker 2: but the we have not yet found a concept that

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Speaker 2: unifies Americans and so now the advocacy of the realization

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Speaker 2: that we need a new idea for world order has

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00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: shrunk to a much smaller group that existed at the

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Speaker 2: end of World War Two. Our challenge is conceptual more

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Speaker 2: than practical.

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Speaker 1: When you came to power, American had a long period

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Speaker 1: where it had been able to lecture the world. America

396
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Speaker 1: was going through great difficulties then not you know, it

397
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: was going through things at the gas price. You had

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Speaker 1: all these things going wrong, and America didn't. You had

399
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: to scramble, You had to try and find allies. You

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00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: had to try and make things work. You've had another period,

401
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: you know, from the Berlin Wall onwards, where where America

402
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: seemed very strong. Now again it's it's stuck, having to

403
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: make allies, having to find balances. Is there a comparison

404
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: there at all?

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Speaker 2: We now a living in an in the world of

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Speaker 2: and presidented complexity. The need for allied it siss But

407
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: what allowed as opposed to do in given circumstances, and

408
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: all the alliances are supposed to operate when every issue

409
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: has a global component, but not not every issue has

410
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: a comparable interest for every country, so that countries they

411
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: all have a global interest in global hm stability, but

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00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 2: they don't have the same interest in the immediate situation. Secondly,

413
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: there has now when I was given the opportunity to

414
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: participate in policy making, that was essentially the seventies and

415
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 2: at early eighties. All these issues were discussing the beginning

416
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Speaker 2: in there we're in their infantry and the so that

417
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: their very existence was in dispute. And one of the

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00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: countributions of Nixon was that he was willing to faith

419
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Speaker 2: these needs new real lydies. But now they're upon us,

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Speaker 2: and in that sense it's an evolution of the problems

421
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Speaker 2: as us. In your question, do.

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00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: You think now America is a worse ally, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you go to if I go to Paris or

424
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Speaker 1: I go to Chakato, they will say all we hear

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Speaker 1: from America is we hear America first, and we hear

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Speaker 1: we don't want to do trade deals, we don't want

427
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: to do things with you. There is no there is

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00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: no sense of reaching out. And they would probably say

429
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden is a little bit more polite than

430
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: but they're more helpful.

431
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: They invaded in America had sifted to the extremes. So

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Speaker 2: the difference between say liberal Republicans and Democrats in the

433
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Speaker 2: seventy and eighties was about the degree of a participation,

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Speaker 2: in which they both said in the prison period the

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00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: debate had shifty two extremes, in which date it's an

436
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 2: extreme theory of America first, which is applied on both sides,

437
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: but in such a way that it f that it

438
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 2: focuses too much on American interests and not on global interests.

439
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: That it's challenge. But anyone who wants to conduct a

440
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: series American foreign policy must balance it do or America

441
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: will become isolated.

442
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: Do you think the current administration is doing a serious

443
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: job at that.

444
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 2: I think the current administration is trying to do as

445
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: of that, but it is so afraid of attacks on

446
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: itself that it doesn't do itself justice.

447
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 1: You were a Rockefeller Republican. Nowadays there are no Rockefeller Republican.

448
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: There's there's there's Democrats on one extreme, there's Republicans on

449
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: the other. The center of American politics, the fact it's disappeared,

450
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: do you do you think that that has dramatic foreign

451
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: policy locations.

452
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: I think their sender still exists, but it doesn't have fully,

453
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't have an articulate expression heed, would you.

454
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: Ever like an independent party in America?

455
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: Well, independent bodies in America have not had a good

456
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: fate ya, But I do wan think it is important

457
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 2: to maintain an a argument for the philosophy that I

458
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 2: have maintained, not because I have maintained it, but because

459
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: it reflects the necessity of our period. And that becomes

460
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 2: magnified if you consider the po that we are now

461
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: in the field of artificial intelligence, at the very beginning

462
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: of a colossal transformation of human consciousness which will have

463
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: to be built into this forum policy.

464
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 1: But we have a paradox, don't we. You have these issues,

465
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: you have artificial intelligence, you have climate change, you have

466
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: maybe the global economy where interconnectedness is incredibly important, but.

467
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: America that is in the current world. But the essence

468
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: of what I'm concerned about, it's that we have opened

469
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: the door to a dialogue with objects and with machines.

470
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: That when when the printing press was invented, it transformed

471
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 2: to human consciousness and said, oh, what we call now

472
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: the Enlightenment, which has been going on for five hundred years.

473
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: Now we are these machines. What is the essence of

474
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: these machines? We ask a question of these machines. These

475
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: machines are then capable of encumbiting all the knowledge that

476
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: we have taught them, but that we cannot contain in

477
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: one brain or one machine. Look at it, give us

478
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 2: an answer and re act on the basis of that.

479
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: That is a new reality that that will be studied

480
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: for decades. Like the old new reality was when the

481
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 2: printing preads permitted exchanging information easily.

482
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: The pret printing press was at the time of nation

483
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: states or nation states were coming to the fore where

484
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: you had an immediate need to interact with other ones.

485
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: It was part of what appeared ai coming part in it,

486
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: as you've described in America, which is not is not

487
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: doesn't have more.

488
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: But I think America will be driven by reality in

489
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: studying what i've and so will all other countries. It's

490
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: not an American thing, but it's become a high tech thing.

491
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: So therefore it will be a dialogue between Therefore, the

492
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 2: dialogue between America and China will become more important or

493
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: even more crucial. But it will change the way we

494
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: interpret reality because due to our achievement, we have found

495
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: the key to a new aspect of reality which we

496
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: didn't know existed.

497
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 1: One last single America. Given the huge complexity of what

498
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: you've described, do you think that a presidential election between

499
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: Joe Biden and Donald Trump offers somebody who is capable

500
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: of dealing with that degree of complexity.

501
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 2: It's going to be very difficult. It's it's it's a

502
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: painful question. We have to live with what exists, and

503
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: we mustn't turn our dispute into civil ward.

504
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: The third part of our conversation centered on Asia, perhaps

505
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: the place where Kissinger has had the most enduring impact

506
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: for most people. Now, that impact is represented by China,

507
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: which Kissinger and Richard Nixon helped open up to the West.

508
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: But his first encounter with Asia, and the area of

509
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: his life is critics focus on, was into China. I

510
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: put it to Kissinger that although Nixon and he plainly

511
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: inherited a mess in Vietnam in nineteen sixty eight, by

512
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, North Vietnam had taken control of Saigon

513
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: in Cambodia, which America had bombed, was a disaster. I

514
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: asked him whether from the perspective now of nearly fifty years,

515
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: there was anything he would have done differently.

516
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 2: I honestly believe we did the best we could. We

517
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: inherited the war in which five hundred and fifty thousand

518
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 2: Americans now five hundred thousand were in place, and fifty

519
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 2: thousand more had already been ordered to go there, and

520
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: we're underway to go there. In America, public opinion had

521
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: turned in a significant way against the war and in

522
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: violent demonstrations UH in the seats, among our the i

523
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 2: international public, everybody was against the war, but they also

524
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: were for Americas defending them. So our credibility around the

525
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 2: world depended, accidents today on our ability to perform the

526
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: tasks we had assigned ourselves. We have comfortable problems today

527
00:48:50,800 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: in issues in Taiwan and elsewhere Ukraine. So our our

528
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 2: resistant was to try to end the war under conditions

529
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: in which we in which the control over their own

530
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 2: destiny became fell more and more into the hands of

531
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: the South Vietnamese. We gradually withdrew our troops, conducted negotiations,

532
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 2: but also conducted enough military operations so that our adversary

533
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 2: now quasi ally, but our then adversary did not become

534
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: convinced that he could take over UH. We did not

535
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: want in Afghan what Lady was in Afghanistan style withdrawal,

536
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: which was for twenty five hundred people. We had five

537
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty a thousand people plus a million armed

538
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: were in amazing place. So was it at every stage

539
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 2: conducted with the absolutely would say a better way At

540
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: any one point we didn't think so. I still don't

541
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: think so. But ah, I'm open to that argument. But

542
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 2: but what is meant by better? We reduced American casualties substantially,

543
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 2: so that by the last year of the war they

544
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: were in the thousands. Uh when the Nixon administration came in,

545
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: they were reduced to less than a hundred in the

546
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 2: last year of the war, and we withdrew from ground

547
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: combat within two years. At all times maintaining a negotiation.

548
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: The irreducible demand we had was an autonomous democratic government

549
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: in South Vietnam That was not granted until the last

550
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: three months of the war, which is why they were

551
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 2: the last three months of the war. At that point

552
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: we settled. But then the next question became could we

553
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: maintain the settlement. We believed that we could maintain the settlement,

554
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: as we did in South Korea against all but an

555
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: all out invasion from the North, at which point the lines.

556
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: Issues would have varis, but we believed against foreseeable infiltrations,

557
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 2: we could maintain the autonomy of the of the government

558
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: and we could maintain it against even significant attacks. But

559
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 2: then Watergate occurred within two months of the settlement, and

560
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 2: the Congress, reflecting public opinion forbade any kind of military

561
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: action in over and near Vietnam. At that point UH

562
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 2: we r it W had become had destroyed the basis.

563
00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: It was painful. It was the sad this moment of

564
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 2: my public life when I had to sit in the

565
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: Security Advisor's office and recommend the final withdrawals. And I

566
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 2: published in my memoirs conversations with President Ford to show

567
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: how painful he found it to agree to these recommendations.

568
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 2: I think the time regained enabled us. By the time

569
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 2: the war was ended, we had already opened to China,

570
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 2: and that in turn, or China had opened to us.

571
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: Either way. But that was the crucial turning point of

572
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 2: the Cold War, and also uh created a structure from

573
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 2: which we could have maintained or at least given the

574
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 2: vietnamse a reasonable chance. During the debates and to the pressures,

575
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 2: many things were said that can now be s used

576
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 2: to indicate different views, but this was our recentral views,

577
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that any later books that are written

578
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 2: on the subject that have access to material will see

579
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 2: that this was what we thought and acted of.

580
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: It's pretty quickly that you think the in the end

581
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 1: the end, and the end justified all the collateral damage

582
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: of hanging on that.

583
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 2: No, the energy for us, uh the end, we were aiming

584
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 2: for an honorable peace. By honorable peace, we meant a

585
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 2: piece in which we did not turn over the people

586
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: who had relied on us to the domination of those

587
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 2: whom they had fought relying on our promises. That was

588
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 2: our definition of the end. We honestly believed that we

589
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: had achieved that, and in presenting his proposally North Vietnam

590
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 2: Meets Negotiated Lee docto. The crucial point was in October

591
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two when the North Vietnam Meets negotiated turned

592
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 2: over a proposal and then ready to us and said,

593
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: this is essentially what President Nixon I has proposed in January.

594
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 2: At that point I asked for what he said and

595
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,439
Speaker 2: my closes. Associated at that point was a man called

596
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 2: Vinston Lord Hm who went on to a distinguished career,

597
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: and he had sort of resigning at the time we

598
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 2: UH fought in Cambodia, and I told him, then you

599
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,760
Speaker 2: have two choices. You can go outside and walk around

600
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:43,439
Speaker 2: with a blackard, oh, you can help end it war.

601
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: And so at that moment I turned to Winston. Was

602
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 2: such Americans at that point, and I turned to him

603
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 2: and I said, We've done. It turned out to be

604
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 2: a sad statement because ye, we hadn't, because we could

605
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 2: not maintain the domestic support that was needed to sustain it. Ah.

606
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: But the effort if the effort had not been made,

607
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: and if we had gone to either of the other

608
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 2: extreme solutions, one of it was to go all out

609
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 2: upon coming into office before the ground had been laid

610
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 2: with Russia and China, or to withdraw unconditionally and tried

611
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 2: to extricate hundreds of thousands of troops while the enemy

612
00:57:55,040 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: was still around them in the foremened local people might

613
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: have turned against us. Was uh was not uh was

614
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 2: not acceptable, and there were no other terms that could

615
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 2: have been n uh n uh negotiated. That was the

616
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 2: reality h that we faced. And so in retrospect, President

617
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 2: Nixon came to believe and actually I thought already at

618
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 2: that time we should have considered a more all out

619
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 2: military solution at the beginning, but un reflecting about it

620
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 2: at the time we had had assassinations in America HM

621
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 2: and already violent demonstrations. That was probably more theoretical than practical.

622
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: So that was our thinking, of course, that it o

623
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 2: bel of. It's been debated.

624
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: The other bit, which you mentioned as being in part

625
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: a reason why staying there made sense, was China. From

626
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,439
Speaker 1: that point of view, you went there, you hope it.

627
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: Was important for us to show we ended up it

628
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: convinced that a country of the magnitude of China and

629
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: the history of China could not be kept out of

630
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: the international system, and that we could not keep it

631
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 2: out of the international system, that it would find a

632
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 2: way to enter it. And so we began effort to

633
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 2: open relations. At that moment, China had withdrawn all its

634
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 2: ambassadors from every country in the world except two h

635
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 2: Poland and Egypt. And Poland was maintained in the Geneva

636
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 2: Agreement of nineteen fifty four as a contact point between

637
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 2: America and China, and negotiations began on a regular patis,

638
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 2: that is, between the embassadors that There were one hundred

639
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: and sixty two meetings between nineteen fifty four and nineteen

640
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 2: seventy one, none less and more than a day because

641
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: each began, and with the Chinese demanding the immediate return

642
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 2: of Taiwan to China, and with the Americans demanding that

643
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 2: h H China affirm its commitment to a commitment to

644
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 2: a peaceful evolution of the process, neither demand was accepted,

645
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 2: and so we began from that basis, and then went

646
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: through many contortions to establish contact and exploring many evades

647
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:56,959
Speaker 2: of possibly doing it, and finally found a way when

648
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 2: President Nixon told Jakob Ghan in Pakistan that we wanted contact.

649
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 2: UH that to convey to the Chinese said we wanted

650
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 2: a real dialogue, and we emphasized it UH about sending

651
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 2: an embassador in Poland. The impacted in Poland to approached

652
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 2: the Chinese embassador at any social function to which all

653
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 2: embathed it were invited, which turned out to be a

654
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: Yugoslav fashion show and which one normally doesn't associate with Yugoslavia.

655
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 2: But UH we UH approached him and it was at

656
01:02:55,760 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 2: that moment we the embattled A few weeks later drove

657
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 2: up to our office, to our empathy, and said they

658
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 2: were ready to begin negotiations. Those are the contortions through

659
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 2: which things were conducted at the time. But from there

660
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 2: we worked together with China on the specific problem of

661
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 2: enabling in a dialogue, which gave for us something additional

662
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 2: to think about, and then led to the eating of

663
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 2: the Cold War and the culmination of the Vietnamese agreements,

664
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 2: and to subsequent evolution of Chinese American relations.

665
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: There's always a metaphor. Well, I think the first time

666
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: you said we were in the foothills of a new

667
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: Cold War, and then we went up to the mountain passes.

668
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: Then the world was on a precipice looking over. But

669
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 1: each time we talk, the relationship between America and China

670
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: seems to be worse. Is that Is that true today?

671
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 2: I'd say we are now at the top of the precipice,

672
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 2: and one of the big problems is both sides needed

673
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 2: to step back from it several days. If one of

674
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 2: them steps back, it is falling. So both have to

675
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:45,200
Speaker 2: decide to take the attension out of this situation. But

676
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 2: there it's an inherent difficulty in dead relationship. China had

677
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 2: been a great country for much of it, but in

678
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 2: the period that prior to the consumption of relations in

679
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 2: the terms of measuring power UH, China was much weaker

680
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 2: HM than the U than the United States. Its capacity

681
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 2: was to stir up difficulty all over the world by

682
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: using its diplomatic and potential commercial inter influence. As China

683
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 2: grew in strengths, which was inherent in opening the relationship,

684
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: uh it's it C gained the capacity of threatening the

685
01:05:54,880 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 2: United States. In the nature of modern technology and the

686
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 2: nuclear age from the beginning raised the issue that countries

687
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 2: developing nuclear weapons and their capacity to deliver them HM

688
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 2: were able to inflict the amount of damage that would

689
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 2: normally require years of warfare, so that therefore their capacity

690
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 2: to influence actions by threats grew. That was the dilemma

691
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 2: of the nuclears to begin with, and it was one

692
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 2: reason why many of us thought negotiations for the reduction

693
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 2: of that that were important. So with respect to Chinese

694
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 2: American relations MM and China grew stronger, and as the

695
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 2: American debate became more complicated, as we've discussed earlier mm

696
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 2: UH and as the Chinese governments changed over the years,

697
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 2: UH the tension became harder and harder to manage. And

698
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 2: on the American side, it became a its object which

699
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 2: it had not been of domestic politics, so that candidates

700
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 2: are now influenced by the degree of which their opponents

701
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 2: can accuse them of selling out of China.

702
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: HM.

703
01:07:55,680 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: So that it's the current problem, however, and it is

704
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 2: a unique situation in the sense that the biggest threat

705
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:18,759
Speaker 2: of each country it's the other that it's the biggest

706
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:24,679
Speaker 2: threat to China. It's America in their perception and disable

707
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:29,719
Speaker 2: It's true here that the Tchi that the biggest threat.

708
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 2: On the other hand, wards have become either unwinnable with

709
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 2: the advanced weapons or winnable only at costs that are

710
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:57,560
Speaker 2: out of proportion. And so I support efforts to negotiate

711
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 2: with China, and I've been urging them.

712
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,719
Speaker 1: There's one one interesting thing you said, You're you pointed

713
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 1: out there in America that politics has changed because a

714
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 1: successive yet leaders and the elections people fight. In China,

715
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 1: you've had one leader, You've a chiaging thing now for

716
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: over ten years. So the fact that it's got worse

717
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: in am in China is that his fault w W

718
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 1: what is has he gone in the wrong direction?

719
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 2: Well, what he has done is it's so called wolves diplomacy,

720
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 2: in which Chinese leader Chinese diplomats wereged in effect to

721
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 2: throw around their way that in re s so in

722
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 2: relates to its, say Australia, which of a dramatic reduction

723
01:09:54,600 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 2: of Chinese trade because of some for the and other

724
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 2: statements that had been made. It's a problem with a

725
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 2: little bit comfortable to what we discussed before about Germany

726
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 2: before nineteen fourteen, that Germany suddenly became a great power

727
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 2: and after it t Bismarck at first had did not

728
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 2: know how to apply it in a way that translated

729
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 2: into diplomatic results.

730
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: You described Deng Shaping, for instance, as a great man.

731
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 1: Do you think of Jijinping as a great man?

732
01:10:50,200 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 2: Well, he is Dung Chopin had finished his at to

733
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 2: finish its destiny or its role. Yep. Tea came in

734
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,839
Speaker 2: after a cultural revolution which wiped out many of these

735
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 2: experienced leaders, and I don't describe him now as a

736
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 2: great man, but I think he's pursuing golds which might

737
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 2: earn him that title. And the American president if they

738
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 2: achieve a real balancing of relationship between the two countries.

739
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:53,919
Speaker 1: What chances do you see of an invasion of Taiwan

740
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: sometime in the next three four years on the current

741
01:11:57,439 --> 01:11:59,479
Speaker 1: trajectory of relations.

742
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 2: Well and the current trajectory of relations, I think some

743
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 2: military conflict it is probable, but I also think the

744
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 2: current prajictory of relations must be altered and full the

745
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 2: beads preceding our discussion, there have been signs on both

746
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 2: sides of trying to end them. They have not yet

747
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 2: actually engaged in the sort of dialogue that I suggest it,

748
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 2: but I think they're moving towards it, and I leave

749
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 2: my mind open in relation to the outcome.

750
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 1: The other thing which has happened is that China has

751
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: got more involved in things beyond its traditional region. You know,

752
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 1: you've seen China talking to Zelenski. You saw China brokering

753
01:13:07,439 --> 01:13:10,879
Speaker 1: a kind of truth between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

754
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 2: It should be an inevitable part of these discursions that

755
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:19,879
Speaker 2: both sides explained to each other what their core interests

756
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:26,759
Speaker 2: are and determine how do I handle situations in which

757
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 2: they are core into its clash and I would hope

758
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 2: to resolve into its in which coins it's clash without

759
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:47,520
Speaker 2: conflict or manage to avoid situations of class in cointes.

760
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 1: At the moment, you have India, which seems to be

761
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 1: a non aligned country. It is not on one side

762
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: or the other. Would would it would a younger Kissinger

763
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 1: now focus from an American point of view, trying to

764
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:04,679
Speaker 1: bring India, which will be the next great power, onto

765
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:05,919
Speaker 1: the American side.

766
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 2: Now, I've not dealt with India for in terms of years,

767
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 2: even longer than I've dealt with China mm And at

768
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 2: the early period of my dealing with India, then non

769
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 2: alignment was a source of considerable irritation because it took

770
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 2: the form of lecturing outs on the virtues of non alignment.

771
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 2: That choice was open to them, but not to us.

772
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 2: When you are in a cold war, you can retreat

773
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:52,640
Speaker 2: from it and say you're not going to choose non alignment.

774
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,800
Speaker 2: But in the decades with which I've dealt with India said,

775
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 2: since I think their policy, their current policy is extraordinarily thoughtful,

776
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 2: and I have great respect for their foreign minister, who

777
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 2: is a very I what's a brilliant executor of that

778
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:34,240
Speaker 2: of that policy. India is a great power, and over

779
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 2: the decades ahead it will grow very comfortably to China,

780
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 2: maybe not quite of the same string, but it doesn't

781
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 2: matter at that point exactly it it will be of

782
01:15:51,320 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 2: sufficient strength to uh assuree itself, and so it performs

783
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:09,880
Speaker 2: best when it defends its own interests, which overlap many

784
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 2: of ours. Our interests as a great power are to

785
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 2: prevent any country from dominating the world or its regions

786
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 2: in such a way that we lose our influence to

787
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 2: achieve important objectives.

788
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 1: The final part of our conversation focused on legacy and

789
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,719
Speaker 1: the personal side. Henry Kissinger has remained a pretty private

790
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: person in an age where leaders like to play on

791
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: emotional narratives. He has, as we shall shortly see ten,

792
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:04,559
Speaker 1: to suppress his backstory, even when it might win him sympathy.

793
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,240
Speaker 1: One constant in the three decades that I've known him

794
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 1: has been football. His first question on seeing me was

795
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 1: why had Leicester City, my football team, just been relegated

796
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:18,799
Speaker 1: from the Premier League. He has followed Firth, which itself

797
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 1: got relegated from the Bundesliga last year since he.

798
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 2: Was a boy.

799
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 1: Indeed, he and his brother were beaten up by Nazi

800
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 1: thugs for trying to sneak into a game. You have

801
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 1: lived one hundred years and firsth is yet to win

802
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 1: the Bundesliga. How long would you have to live for

803
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: that to happen?

804
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 2: It would come close to the definition to giving as

805
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 2: a definition of infinity.

806
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: I've read a lot of things you've written, and nothing

807
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 1: quite as sort of powerful as this. And it's in

808
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 1: Neil Ferguson's book. It was a private essay you wrote

809
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 1: when you visited on concentration camp when you age I

810
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 1: think just twenty two, and especially you meet this inmate

811
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 1: called Folxama and you say, Felix Samer, your foot has

812
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 1: been crushed so that you can't run away. Your face

813
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 1: is forty, your body is ageless. Yet all your certificate

814
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:14,519
Speaker 1: reads is sixteen. And I stand there with my clean

815
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:17,600
Speaker 1: clothes and make a speech to you and your comrades. Felixamer,

816
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:22,639
Speaker 1: humanity stands accused in you, I, Joe Smith, human dignity.

817
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 1: Everybody has failed you. You should be preserved in cement

818
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 1: up here on the hillside for future generations to look

819
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: upon and take stock human dignity. Objective values have stopped

820
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 1: at this barbed wirre. As long as conscience exists as

821
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: a conception in the world, you personify it. Nothing done

822
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 1: for you will ever restore you. You are eternal in

823
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:46,280
Speaker 1: this respect. Obviously had a very profound experience in you.

824
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:48,840
Speaker 1: But if something you chose to keep so private for

825
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 1: a long time is that do you think that's a

826
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 1: different way of people seeing Henry Kissinger.

827
01:18:54,400 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 2: It was a feeling that its concentration came evoked in me.

828
01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 2: I wrote that within a week HM of having seen

829
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 2: the l level of dehumanization, that we can't imagine that

830
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 2: people were too weak to hurt the gods that had

831
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:31,240
Speaker 2: kept them and be killed some people by mistake by

832
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 2: giving them solid food. But it so I wrote that

833
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 2: for myself I had no intention of publishing it, because

834
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:55,480
Speaker 2: feelings about humanity can affect your own actions. A biographer

835
01:19:56,200 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 2: discovered it mm not among papers I can, but it

836
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 2: reflects an underlying reality that we have to recognize. It's

837
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 2: lurking behind our technical compartitities, and that we need to

838
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 2: contain and prevent from breaking and to youths to prevent

839
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 2: the verbadic side from breaking out.

840
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:41,640
Speaker 1: When you look back at your life now from the

841
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 1: hundred year point of view, do you think that has

842
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:48,400
Speaker 1: been the core of it is trying to do that.

843
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 2: It's been an important core of it, but I don't

844
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:57,760
Speaker 2: advertise it on that thing.

845
01:20:57,800 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 1: I know you're you're one hundred, you're talking about writing

846
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 1: more books, But how if not for that, how would

847
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 1: you like to be remembered.

848
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:14,640
Speaker 2: It's out of my control. I tried to do the

849
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 2: best I could within the Frameburg that we have did.

850
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,880
Speaker 1: Good, Henry Quest, thank you very much for talking to Bloomberg.

851
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 1: A very delayed happy birthday, Thank you very much