WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: TSP Live-Clarence Roberts 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:05.440 So I think it's three o'clocks. You are ready when 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.280 I'm done getting this eyelash. Yeah, it's precisely three o'clock 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:10.520 according to my phone, exactly. I guess we're gonna get 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.480 rolling here, right. So first off, actually, before you go, 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:19.560 sorry to rock, is there anybody here from Indiana High Phones? 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.000 Uh So, we're going to do an Indiana mystory that 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:27.720 Joe's already told people about. I haven't told you though, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.159 That's the important thing. Uh So, we are doing this 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.640 as a live taping. So we're going to do our 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.839 normal intro, and you guys can make as much or 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:51.879 as little noise as you want. He's ready, Okay, Thinking Sideways, 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:58.160 I'll look at that. I don't know stories of things. 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:03.000 We simply don't know of the answa too. Hey there, 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.360 welcome to a very special episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:13.400 I am Devin, joined as usual by Steve and Joe, 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:15.600 and we're going to talk about a mystery. And we're 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.720 joined us, so I should say by a live studio audience. Guys, 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:27.840 say hi, it's a group of very loud five loud. Okay, 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.640 let's do that again. I say hi ya whatever, It's 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.120 cool that was a good round of applause. Appreciate that. 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.240 We're going to talk about a mystery. It's a local mystery. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.440 Well it's well, it took place in Indiana, so it's 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:45.000 local Brown County. Anybody here from Brown County? Good? Okay, 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.440 kind of south to here. We're going to talk about 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.720 the case of Clarence Roberts's death. Is anybody familiar with 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.600 that case? The death of Clarence Roberts. You guys haven't 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.720 heard about Clarence treat Joe. Why don't you tell them 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:03.640 a little bit about Clarence Roppers. Let me give you 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.840 it says Joe Shatner style, my shatting. Your invitation kind 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.480 of sucks, So I'm just gonna read it. Uh. So 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:15.240 earlier the hours of October v a shed uh which 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.679 is being used as a garage on the Robert's property 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:23.440 in Brown County caught fire uh and volunteer firefighters came 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.880 by and tried to put it out. They haven't yet, no, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.560 not yet, not in this not around here. But the 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.120 only thing they were able to say was the Clarence's 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.240 pickup truck. He had a pickup truck parked down there. 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.440 They wheeled that out and saved it, but didn't say 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.320 Clarence who perished in the fire along with two other cars. 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.360 But then the next day, after things are cooled down 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:43.880 a little bit, they were coming through the ashes and 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.320 they found an interesting surprise which was a burned limbless 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:51.919 body of a man apparently Clarence Roberts. And the body 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.160 was laying on his back, had a ship that sixteen 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:59.040 gage shotgun laying across its chest. Um. But investigators were 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.160 also stiffing through the ash and they found a Masonic 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.760 ring buried in the ash not far from the body, 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.639 completely undamaged, not completely, but pretty much undamaged. And Claire 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:11.120 and of course was a Mason. He was like a 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:15.720 thirty three d gird degree like talk to our experts 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.200 about this, Yeah, but it was. It was in pretty 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.080 good shape for having been through a fire. Clarence Roberts 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.720 was a local businessman. Uh. He and his brother owned 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.600 a small local chain of hardware feed stores called, I 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.520 think the Roberts Lumber Company, so obviously sold little rumber 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:32.880 Lumber two. They were pretty well to do. They had 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:37.840 four children, all boys, and you know, a nice house 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.480 and a lot of nice luxury cars and also Clarence 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.560 had several life insurance policies, which was lucky for his 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:45.800 family that he died. And so it's time to collect 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.240 the life insurance right and this is like, you know, 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.200 valued at like more than a million bucks. This is 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.240 nineteen seventy, so like six million now, yeah, in a 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.240 billion or something like that. So all they had to 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.880 do was collect that money. But there was a hitch, 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.520 There was a fly in the ointment. Yeah, they didn't 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.880 didn't quite get that. So tragedy would hit the family 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:10.360 again ten years later when another fire would destroy a 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.200 shock that was wasn't owned by the Roberts family. I 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.000 was down in Camp Roberts. Anybody here heard about Camp Roberts, 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.920 southeast about three miles southeast of Nashville, Indiana, a little 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.359 place that's mostly owned by the Roberts family apparently, and 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.520 as the family and if the shack was owned by 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.200 her nephew, I knew somebody in the family owned. She 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.240 was staying there rent for you. So robertson sho another 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:39.920 Robert another one burns down. This time, however, there are 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:45.000 two bodies. Well that was loud. Uh. The first body 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:49.960 was identified as Geneva Roberts Clarence's wife, and the second 0:04:50.000 --> 0:05:02.000 body was identified as that of Clarence Roberts. Don. Hi, Hi, 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:03.960 I didn't know we had we had service up here. 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:10.560 This is awesome. And use their water instead of my water. Okay, 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.320 all right, good. You guys wanted an unedited show, right, Yes, 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:16.480 we're asking us all the time, so this is what 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.440 you get. Um. So, as we said, they you know, 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.360 this this life insurance policy they had tried to collect 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.000 the family had, but the insurance company had decided that 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.600 there were some things wrong that made them not believe 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.839 that it was gonna be Claire actually be Clarence's body, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.920 So Geneva didn't get any of the money, so she 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.359 was left essentially penniless at that point. Uh, they you know, 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.720 had to sell the family home. The cars were repossessed 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.640 or I think the brothers that owned them actually took 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:47.400 them back for some of those cars and one of 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.880 them was taken back by his creditors. I talked to 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.680 a lawyer who knew the knew the Roberts and there 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.240 was he told me this story about they were in 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.039 court and Clarence was being confronted by one of his 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:02.080 creditors and the creditors. Lawyer says, Clarence, how did you 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.600 get here today? And Clarence said, I drove And the 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.719 lawyer turned to the judge and said, your honor, we 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.920 want that car. And so the judge made Clarence hand 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.080 over the keys to his Cadillac right there in court. 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.200 That's how That's how deep in Clarence was living beyond 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.640 his means, way beyond his means, and Uber wasn't a 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.280 thing yet. Yeah, and home was not fun humiliating moment 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.560 for poor Clarence Roberts. Yes, well, and especially for Geneva 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.000 because she and the family have been trying to collect 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.240 on the insurance for now ten years and hadn't got 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.159 it um. So at this point she has to take 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.919 a job. She is working at the Howard Johnson's. I 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.760 believe she's working in the kitchen, washing dishes, are baking pies. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:45.280 I've heard that story too. Okay, Her her children abandoned her, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.279 the entire family shunned her. So she was on her 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.719 own at that point. So we're going to play this 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.960 one a little fast and loose, uh, And we're going 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.200 to try to add to the story as we talk 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.640 about theories that doesn't mean, we're going to mix stuff up, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.960 but maybe we wouldn't do that. Uh So, I'm just 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.720 gonna you know, I'm hosting, so we've got some bullet 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.880 points here. I'm gonna go ahead and just talk about 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.000 the high level of what the theories might be, and 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.560 then we're going to get into it. Sound good, sounds good. 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.040 So we need to talk about Clarence. We need to 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.160 talk about if he died in the first fire or 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.480 the second fire. There are people out there, by the 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:27.960 way who still believed Clarence did die in the first fire. 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.000 We need to talk about Clarence and if he set 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.640 the first fire or the second fire or neither or both. 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:37.840 And we need to talk about if he didn't die 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.440 in the first fire, where did he go? And then 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.360 we need to talk about Geneva because it seems like 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:44.360 she should have known about this, right you would think, 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:49.960 but maybe not. So let's talk about this sweet first 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:54.040 theory would be Clarence died in the first fire. Yeah, 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.480 this does not have a lot of subscribers. Well, there's 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.520 there's a really, really good reason. I don't know if 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.800 we had talked about the fact that when the body 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.080 was found, we had said that you know, there was 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.720 no limbs. It's believed that those were burned off. I know, 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.920 Joe through your conversations with was it the prosecutor? Yeah, yeah, 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:16.960 I gotta I was. Actually was lucky enough to track 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.400 down a guy named James T. Roberts. He says he's 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.240 no relation to Clarence, but he was. He was the 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.600 county prosecutor and I've seen seventy when this happened. He 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.200 told me. There's stories on the internet that somebody actually 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.120 chopped off the arms and legs from the body and 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.840 then put it in the barn and set the fire. 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:34.200 But you will see where it says there's like woo 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.480 or marks on the bones. Apparently, apparently that's not true, 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.680 according to somebody who was there. And he claims to 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.800 know everything there is to know about this case. Well, 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.160 he was the prosecutor. Yeah, he should know everything. Yeah, 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.679 but the thing about the body is, yeah, it's got 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.800 no arms and legs, so theoretically the fire is so 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.360 intense that it would have burned them off. There was 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.800 also talk of a shotgun being found near the body, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.920 so it's believed Okay, he set the fire maybe, but 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.559 he also must have tried to commit suicide by using 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.400 the weapon on himself. But there was a problem. There 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.080 was no gunshot wound in the body. There's an issue. 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:19.360 Come on, dude, that corner Yeah yeah, yeah, so uh, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:21.640 I guess I really just don't understand even how it 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:23.720 plays out that he died in the first fire. Yeah, 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.120 I guess you would have to say that is Clarence 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.560 back to the truck up into the barn, lights the 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.439 barn on fire with the attempt of then he's gonna 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.000 use the gun on himself. I mean this, this whole 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:37.640 series of events. Did that make any sense to anybody else, 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:42.520 because it doesn't to me. And the right it was undamaged. 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.360 If the fire was hot enough to burn his limbs off, 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.760 that was a ring on the finger should be damaged. Right. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.360 And then the corner actually did an autopsy, believe it 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.199 or not, and they found out that the body had 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.880 a huge level of or not CEO carbon monoxide and 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.320 in the bloodstream enough to be fatal. Uh. And yet 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.280 no evidence of inn a smoke innolation at all, as 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.719 long as we're all clean and pink. So that was 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.800 a little bit suspicious. M hmm. Let's see what else 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.120 flood type there was a blood type, Yeah, I did it. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.079 That didn't match. And then they found one tooth and 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.400 that didn't really match Clarence either. It was also, wasn't 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.480 it missing a kidney? Or I heard that in one place. 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.040 I'm not going to totally swear by that one. I 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.800 supposedly the body was missing a kidney and Clarence had 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.559 both his kidneys. Yeah. Yeah, So if it wasn't Clarence's 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:37.319 body dead in the barn, yeah, do you want to 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.439 talk about the vagrant? I can talk about the vagrant, 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.840 talk about the talking about vagrance all the time. So 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.240 there was there. There's two versions of this story. But 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:52.280 it is said that Clarence met a vagrant, uh town away, right, Joe. 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.120 It was not. It was not actually in the town 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.080 he lived out. Clarence would not be that dumb. He 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.000 was still dumb, but he didn't quite Okay, So there 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.200 is a vagrant, and either Clarence met him in a 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.400 bar and poured so much liquor into him that that 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.720 when they walked out, the guy started falling down and 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:10.920 Clarence said, I'm going to take him to get help. 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.560 Or the other version of the story is that Clarence 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:18.520 met this vagrant. He collapsed on the street, having some 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:22.160 sort of medical condition, and Clarence says, I'll get my car, 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.480 I'll take him to a doctor. There's no record of 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.920 Clarence ever showing up in front of any doctor with 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.160 this man. So there's there's the big red first Bred 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.240 flag about the vagrant. The vagrant, also, by the way, was, 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.720 according to witness, has had a brown plaid shirt on. 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.680 And then it turns out that the why is the 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.680 brown shirt important? The brown shirts important? Why is that important? 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:53.280 Why is that? Well? I will tell you why the 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:55.599 body was even though it was badly burned, it was 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.560 laying against the laying against the pavement and or the dirt. 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:02.400 I don't actually don't know. Was that a dirt floor 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.080 they paid floor, I don't care. We'll just assume it 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.960 was something or the other. But yeah, apparently you got 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.199 enough heat protection that a fragment of the shirt actually 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.719 survived the fire. Turns out it was brown plaid. Clarence's 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.760 cousin that stopped by to visit him, like about fifteen 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.960 minutes before the fire actually broke out, and he said 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.520 that Clarence was wearing a blue shirt, not a brown 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.480 plaid shirt. So well that that looked a little funny 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.200 to the authorities and so people, even though Clarence's family 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.959 was swearing and actually one pathologist was pretty sure it 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.559 was Clarence also, but that that maybe seems really wrong. 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.600 Well it does, because I mean, after all, I mean, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.480 how do you gas yourself and then start a fire? 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.640 I mean, how do you do that? Exactly? I don't know, 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.120 because he should have because the body should have sucumbed 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.120 totally to innate smoke, innilation or excuse me, c O 0:12:54.240 --> 0:13:00.000 two carbon monoxide. You know, people are making me new 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:10.400 or just close your eyes. Everybody looked that way. Okay, 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.600 so we're pretty sure that Clarence did not die in 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.199 that first fire, right, Yeah, everybody's pretty sure except for 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.520 a few people. Like I said, his sons, uh still contend, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:20.680 at least most of his sons and his family. They 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.080 have a grave actually, I think with the original corpse 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.160 buried in it and marked with marked Clarence Roberts. Yeah, 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.720 well there's six million dollars lighter since it wasn't, well 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.800 not lighter. But you know they're not okay, they're not. 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.920 They're not six million dollars heavier. They would have preferred. 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.840 Do you think Geneva knew that it wasn't Clarence. You know, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:40.400 I think she was in on it from the beginning. 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.320 You know, I was kind of thinking it was Geneva, 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.559 although when I talked to James Roberts about it again, 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.200 he was the one, more than me and more than 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.400 the Internet who actually knew these two. Uh, and he's 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.000 she was actually very sure that Geneva was not involved 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.360 in any of this scheme because at least in the beginning, 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.680 at some point, of course, it appears that Clarence did 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:03.839 come back to town. He he actually abscounted with a 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.400 paramount of cash, and uh, some point he must have 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.400 run out of money, is the thinking, and he came 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.679 back to Geneva, she let she took him back in. 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:13.920 And at that point, of course, she becomes complicit because 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.120 I didn't mention that there was a grand jury in 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.760 that indicted Clarence on charges of kidnapping and murder for 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.600 the murder of this vagrant, and so he wasn't wanted man. 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.720 Police were actually local police were looking for They were 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.840 staking out Geneva's home from time to time. So at 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:30.960 that point she became complicit. But he's very sure that 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:36.520 she was not actually part of the conspiracy, So Clarence 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.160 would have then placed the ring himself. Probably Clarence put 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.120 it in there himself, came back after the fire was 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.840 done and after the volunteer firefighters left for the night. Yeah, 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.800 you know, that's Clarence may not have been as smart 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:52.560 as he thought he was. Maybe. And one of the 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.800 things that that screwed Clarence up is that he had 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.720 a pickup truck, as I mentioned that the firefighters saved, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.240 and he rigged it up as kind of a rolling 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.760 gas chamber. He plugged the fire of the tailpipe, and 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:05.400 he had taken what appeared to be a hammer and 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.480 a punch and punched a bunch of holes in the tailpipe, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.800 and the firefighters saved the truck from the fire. It 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:13.960 was actually inside there. It should have been consumed by 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.560 the fire, but these fire firefighters show up and they 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.440 roll the truck out of there and save it. Later on, 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.880 somebody discovered that a lot of a lot of carbon 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.320 monoxide was leaking into the cab of the truck. Uh, 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.120 And so that's when they looked at the tailpipe and 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.080 discovered it had been punctured all over the place. I 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.320 think Clarence probably intended for the truck to be consumed 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.120 in the flames of the fire, but that didn't happen. 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.360 So you gotta ask yourself, what do you Why do 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.480 you have a little rolling gas chamber. He didn't need 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:44.480 it to gas himself inside a closed garage, obviously, Why 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:49.440 do you have something like that, like gas vagrant? Maybe, yeah, 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.600 that's kind of what I'm thinking. That's some other people 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.800 are thinking about. It's kind of funny that the volunteer 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.240 firefighters screwed up his plan because obviously, yeah, I know, 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.480 that's pretty hilarious actually when he's okay. So that's theory 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:06.120 number one done. Theory number two would be Clarence set 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:11.480 and died in the second fire with Geneva Um. I mean, 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.600 the the story here, right is that a few years 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.600 after Geneva moved into the shock, neighbors started talking about 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.880 a strange man a lurking around Um and Geneva, who 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:28.320 was diabetic and did not drink though she wasn't supposed 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.520 to drink. Well, she didn't, but then you know, her 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.480 husband died or ran off or something, and she had 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.160 a good reason, had some good reasons to but she 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.800 was reportedly purchasing a lot of beer and liquor and 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:46.000 bringing it back to the house. Um, so it's possible that, 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.680 you know, Clarence, as mentioned, came back and that was 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:54.160 Clarence that was lurking about. Um right, yeah, But the 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:59.760 important thing to know about the lurker is nobody could 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.560 say that was Clarence because this guy he had a 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:08.120 really really good habit of knowing when somebody was looking 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:09.320 at him. Just one of those people you know you 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:10.960 get the hairs on the back of your your next 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.880 stand up. Apparently he had spiky sense, super good, and 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.680 so somebody would be there and he would immediately he'd 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.960 realize you were there. He would turn and start walking away. 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:22.240 So if they were on one side of the house, 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.639 he would put himself on the other side of the building. 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.840 So nobody ever really got a good view of him. 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.480 They never could say he was pretty distinctive looking. Clarence 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.320 is actually not a bad looking guy. That's not Clarence. 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:39.120 Who's that? That's Clarence. Okay, there you go. A thought 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:47.159 Clarence had darker hair. He was Okay, so his hair 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.720 kind of went gray, alright, that happens, of course, I 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.119 could have been some guy with of facial deformity he 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.919 was shy about it, or maybe some agoraphobia. It wasn't. 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.840 The police were sticking out Geneva's house. Apparently this is 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.040 a huge story in Brown County. I think people swung 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.560 by just to just to check on Geneva themselves, just 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.600 to laugh at her some yeah, just to see check 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.399 out the rumors, see if they spotted clearance in the 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.359 front yard or something like that. So Geneva wind up 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.400 nailing her front door shut, So she came and went 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:20.159 by the back door just to avoid people look watching her. Uh, 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.359 and which proved to be kind of maybe sort of 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.480 fatal for her in the end, because you know, they 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.000 had that second fire, they did, and they couldn't escape 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.639 by the front door. Yeah, it's the problem with nailing 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.879 things shut. The kind of is get back out. So 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.480 again the question though, is who set that second fire. Well, 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.120 we really somebody did, apparently because somebody used an accelerant, 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.440 probably like I don't know what gas, something like that, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.159 yeah or something. According to James Roberts, the prosecutor, he 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.480 said somebody set that fire. He said it was definitely 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.439 not an accident. Yeah, and it's a weird It was 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.520 a weird fire because the bodies of apparently the Roberts's 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.080 were found in the bedroom. Right. No, actually she was 0:18:58.119 --> 0:18:59.520 on a cot in the living room and he was. 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.719 They were sap they were sleeping apart. They were sleeping 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:09.560 apart anyway, they're wrong. Um. And they died of smoke inhalation. Correct, Yeah, 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.000 they didn't get their lumps right off this time. But 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.040 the trail of accelerant led to the back door. So 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.200 it would be kind of weird to me that somebody 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.960 would set a fire in their own house with the 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.520 intention of killing themselves or whatever and lead it from 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.359 the back door. Why would you do that? Why wouldn't 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:30.840 you just soak the room you're in? Well, you know, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:32.640 the the only thing that I can think of, and 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.880 this is this is Clarence's plan went wrong. If we're 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.040 saying that Clarence is the one who set this fire, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.439 the only way that I can see that working is 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:46.680 if Clarence did indeed walk into the shack. He's pouring 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.520 accelerant as he's walking in. He then you know, he 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.560 says goodbye to Geneva in whatever his you know, I 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:58.320 love you by I'm leaving again. Scenario is and lights 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:03.000 it not realizing how fast a fire in a shack 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.160 with accelrat is going to run, and therefore he trapped himself. 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.199 It seems like he should know because he did that 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.840 once before. Yeah. Well, I mean he did a whole 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.600 lot of thing if he did it. There's a whole 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.800 lot of things in that first fire that didn't seem 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:16.760 to add up, like you know, the shotgun and not 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.120 shooting the guy in the rolling gas chamber. I mean, 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.639 none of this seems like it's a really well formulated plays. 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.399 Not if it was two of them. And there's been 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.280 speculation about murder, suicide or suicide that kind of thing. Yeah, 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.000 I mean, what if they committed suicide, Why would you 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.080 like set a fire and kill yourself that way? Are 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:35.639 there any arts in the sere? You guys have a 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.320 point of view on this. I never tried to kill 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:43.320 yourself with fire. We'll have a couple of minutes at 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.480 the end for audience participation if you guys want to 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.000 throw any series and special special preference. If you think 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.359 O J did it, you got to come to the 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.720 front of the line. You can step. But there there 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.280 is the issue of the alcohol levels in both of 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:58.840 the bodies. They had a lot of booze in them. 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.639 They both had a lot of bo was Devin do 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:05.200 remember it was point three for Clarence Clarence and point 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:09.080 to for Geneva. Correct, Yeah, that sounds right I written 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.159 down somewhere, But we're not on at all. That's an 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.879 exceptionally high level of alcohol to have in your system, 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.199 which is why I'm thinking. That's why I wondered if 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.000 you know whoever said it completely bungled it? Has anybody 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.439 anybody here ever been busted for d u I and 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.920 had a breathalyzer? Has anybody ever blown point three? Anybody? 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.600 I'll think that as a no. Okay, yeah, I had 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:34.360 no idea what point three does to you if you're 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:37.240 even conscious? Said well, and especially, I mean I know 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.760 that you wanted to say that. You know, maybe since 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.240 Geneva had less alcohol in her system, maybe she did it. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:47.200 But she wasn't a drinker, probably not a heavy dank 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.639 so I don't think she would have been able to 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:54.359 even do that. Probably not. Well, that could explain how 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.320 sloppy the whole thing was. Well, but if Clarence is 0:21:57.320 --> 0:21:59.879 the one who's if if it was Clarence, it's the 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.640 lurker and she is bringing home all this booze for him. 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.920