Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1: This week, a young man finds himself at odds with
Speaker 1: his boss and her lack of boundaries outside the workplace.
Speaker 3: She would kind of contact me outside of work to
Speaker 3: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone
Speaker 3: light up and it'd be a text message, and I said, Hey,
Speaker 3: if this is work related and I'm not at work,
Speaker 3: I really would like if you could just email me instead.
Speaker 4: She didn't really do that.
Speaker 1: First. A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychologue advice and is
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have
Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi, Laurie,
Speaker 1: Hey guy, So what do we have in our box today?
Speaker 2: We have a work situation, and the workplace is a library,
Speaker 2: so I'm already into it. I like libraries, all right.
Speaker 2: Here's the letter deotherapists. I work at a medical library
Speaker 2: and I've had the same boss for over seven years.
Speaker 2: I started as a college student assistant, and after grad school,
Speaker 2: I was promoted to a professional librarian position. My boss, Sharon,
Speaker 2: is about fifteen years older than me, and as someone
Speaker 2: predisposed codependency, I immediately slipped into a role where I
Speaker 2: felt responsible for her work performance. I found myself working
Speaker 2: unplanned shifts, sometimes with as little as an hour's notice.
Speaker 2: As she has a chronic illness and calls out frequently.
Speaker 2: I would also listen to her complaints about what was
Speaker 2: going on with the staff and give her information she
Speaker 2: needed to do her job. She quickly added me on
Speaker 2: social media accounts and would text me outside of work,
Speaker 2: usually to gossip, including about graduate students who she thought
Speaker 2: were interested in her. I've come to realize that her
Speaker 2: behavior was familiar to me, as I was brought up
Speaker 2: around this functional extended family and have a parent with
Speaker 2: narcissistic tendencies. As my career progressed, I realized that my
Speaker 2: boss wasn't supportive of me unless it fit her narrative.
Speaker 2: If I didn't recognize music or movies she liked, I
Speaker 2: was uncultured. If I wore an Apple Watch, I was
Speaker 2: a nerd until she bought one for herself years later.
Speaker 2: When I got an article published, she didn't acknowledge it.
Speaker 2: When we started working from home last year, as the
Speaker 2: pandemic began, I took it as an opportunity to reset
Speaker 2: and to be firmer in setting boundaries. I wouldn't allow
Speaker 2: her to involve me in her gossip. I wouldn't respond
Speaker 2: to her text or messages when I wasn't in the
Speaker 2: mental space to do so. Unsurprisingly, she has had a
Speaker 2: difficult time with my changing role. If I didn't respond
Speaker 2: to her until the following day, when I engaged, she
Speaker 2: dismissed her previous communication. If I engaged in one conversation,
Speaker 2: she would take it as an invitation to contact me daily.
Speaker 2: On my last performance evaluation, she rated me lowest in
Speaker 2: ability to deal with others. And I can't help but
Speaker 2: interpret that as passive aggressive, especially since I've never received
Speaker 2: feedback like that from anyone else. I feel stuck and
Speaker 2: this has causing me a lot of stress and anxiety
Speaker 2: with my extended family and parent. Completely removing myself is
Speaker 2: the only thing that has worked for me, But I
Speaker 2: don't have the same option here. I'd appreciate any advice. Paul.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, people don't realize that the same relational
Speaker 1: issues that they struggle with outside can occur in the workplace.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like this is something that Paul has
Speaker 1: dealt with in his family and now he's seeing it
Speaker 1: again with his boss.
Speaker 2: And I find that when people try to set limits,
Speaker 2: they're really not that great at it. Setting the limit
Speaker 2: is half the battle. Maintaining it is the other half,
Speaker 2: and that's the half that most people have a really
Speaker 2: hard time with because they figured Okay. Once I had
Speaker 2: that difficult conversation, I don't have to repeat it or
Speaker 2: do it again. So I'm interested to see how much
Speaker 2: the limits were set and really how much they were maintained.
Speaker 1: There's this misconception about boundaries that when you set a boundary,
Speaker 1: you are asking somebody else to do something and they
Speaker 1: are supposed to follow the boundary. And I think boundaries
Speaker 1: are really something that you set with yourself, that you
Speaker 1: make up your mind this is what I am going
Speaker 1: to do. I'm going to tell the other person what
Speaker 1: I am going to do in this situation, and then
Speaker 1: I'm going to follow through and do that. So it's
Speaker 1: not so dependent on whether the other person does what
Speaker 1: you ask. It's really dependent on whether you follow your
Speaker 1: own boundary and do what you say you're going to
Speaker 1: do if the other person does that thing.
Speaker 2: Right, So let's find out what actually happened.
Speaker 1: Let's do that.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after
Speaker 2: a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Winch
Speaker 2: and this is Deotherapists.
Speaker 4: So Hi, Paul, Hey, how are you great?
Speaker 2: And thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 4: Thank you guys so much for having me.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. So it's a workplace situation with your BOS,
Speaker 2: and we're curious a little bit about the history of it.
Speaker 2: When did those boundary violations begin and what was the
Speaker 2: first signs of trouble there.
Speaker 3: I think it probably started really when I first started
Speaker 3: working there. I think that maybe a I didn't think
Speaker 3: of them as really being boundary violations.
Speaker 4: That I kind of thought about it.
Speaker 3: As, Hey, I have a really laid back boss, and
Speaker 3: this is pretty cool. Maybe I can be myself and
Speaker 3: I can joke around a little bit more or not
Speaker 3: have as much of that awkward period you know when
Speaker 3: you first meet people at a job, you kind of
Speaker 3: think to yourself, Okay, so how much of me can
Speaker 3: I be? And what's the rules here? And is are
Speaker 3: my jokes funny? Here are they not? And all that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But what I started to realize is that,
Speaker 3: you know, I would work till eleven o'clock at night.
Speaker 3: That was my shift, so we were kind of the
Speaker 3: late shift in when I worked to eleven, I didn't
Speaker 3: go straight to sleep.
Speaker 4: When I went home, I would usually.
Speaker 3: Be eating snacks and watching TV shows and trying to unwind,
Speaker 3: and so I think sometimes some of the conversations that
Speaker 3: we had at work would bleed into outside of work.
Speaker 3: She would kind of contact me outside of work to
Speaker 3: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone
Speaker 3: light up and it be a text message.
Speaker 1: When you started that job, you were still in college, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you were young. This was one of your first
Speaker 1: professional experien operiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was nineteen when I started.
Speaker 2: And did you know that was going to be a
Speaker 2: career move for you or did that come about because
Speaker 2: of the job.
Speaker 3: So when I first started there, I think I just
Speaker 3: was happy to have a job. But as I spent
Speaker 3: more time working there, I thought to myself, maybe this
Speaker 3: could be a career for me. And so I started
Speaker 3: to contemplate that and spent more time talking to not
Speaker 3: only my boss, but some of the other folks who
Speaker 3: worked there to get an idea of what would this
Speaker 3: look like. And so I ended up making a massive
Speaker 3: leap of faith to go to graduate school to get
Speaker 3: this job. And I such myself, you know what, I'm
Speaker 3: going to go for it. I'm going to try to
Speaker 3: get this master's degree, and I hope that something opens
Speaker 3: here for a job, because if not, I may have
Speaker 3: some trouble finding another job. But it kind of worked
Speaker 3: out well because I did end up getting a job there,
Speaker 3: so I'm super fortunate.
Speaker 1: When did you start feeling uncomfortable about the interaction between
Speaker 1: you and your boss? And I asked about your age
Speaker 1: because I think when people have these early professional experiences,
Speaker 1: they don't know what to expect in the workplace. What
Speaker 1: are the rules here, what are the boundaries here? What
Speaker 1: does it mean to connect with my coworkers but also
Speaker 1: be professional? And so there was something that internally went
Speaker 1: off in you where you said, wait a minute, this
Speaker 1: doesn't feel right. At what point did that happen?
Speaker 3: I think it was once I moved from the temporary
Speaker 3: part time position to my first full time position. If
Speaker 3: you're friendly or friends with people at work, that's great.
Speaker 3: But for me, when I left work, I wanted to
Speaker 3: leave work at work, and I felt that once the
Speaker 3: full time job came about for me, that clicked in
Speaker 3: my head that Okay, this is the time where I
Speaker 3: don't think this is appropriate.
Speaker 2: So what did you do once you had that uncomfortable feeling?
Speaker 2: How long did it take for you to start actually
Speaker 2: taking action or setting limits? And what did that look
Speaker 2: like when you started.
Speaker 3: I think it took a long time to realize that
Speaker 3: I should do something or I wanted to do something,
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, because I just thought like,
Speaker 3: it's okay, this is what my boss is like, and
Speaker 3: that's kind of what I have to deal with. And
Speaker 3: kind of going back to what Laurie was saying about,
Speaker 3: you know, you're not really sure what you know, what
Speaker 3: works here and what doesn't. I'm still trying to figure
Speaker 3: out the culture, right. I feel like I have this
Speaker 3: weird need to respond to people. So even if I
Speaker 3: didn't necessarily care what the conversation was about, or I
Speaker 3: felt like we shouldn't have this conversation, I would just
Speaker 3: try to keep it very short and brief and just
Speaker 3: kind of say like oh, okay or cool, you know,
Speaker 3: or these kind of one word answers, which I think
Speaker 3: is not really effective and hasn't been effective. Otherwise I
Speaker 3: wouldn't be in a situation where I feel like I'm
Speaker 3: not really sure what to do at this point, because
Speaker 3: I think I've let it go on for so long
Speaker 3: of not really saying, hey, you know what, I really
Speaker 3: don't want to have conversations outside of work, or Hey,
Speaker 3: i'd appreciate if you want to communicate them at work,
Speaker 3: that we have a time at work that we do
Speaker 3: that versus whenever it works for you.
Speaker 2: So have you not yet said those kinds of limits
Speaker 2: with her?
Speaker 3: So I did one time and it didn't go over
Speaker 3: that well. I said, Hey, if this is work related
Speaker 3: and I'm not at work, I really would like if
Speaker 3: you could just email me instead. She didn't really do that,
Speaker 3: and going forward, there's been several occasions too where if
Speaker 3: it's work related, she still has texted me. So I
Speaker 3: kind of just got to a point where I said,
Speaker 3: you know what, it's not worth my stress to try
Speaker 3: to control how she's going to contact me.
Speaker 2: So the stress of that versus the discomfort that you feel,
Speaker 2: because what you're tolerating now is the discomfort and stress
Speaker 2: associated with that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so good at tolerating discomfort that it's just
Speaker 3: one of those things where it's natural and normal to me.
Speaker 3: What drives me kind of crazy is that I have
Speaker 3: the awareness, right, I can say this is making me uncomfortable,
Speaker 3: and this is what I'd want to happen, But I
Speaker 3: just don't have like the mental energy to keep trying
Speaker 3: to get someone to do something that I prefer them
Speaker 3: to do.
Speaker 4: And I don't want to be in a position.
Speaker 3: Where there's there's a difficult relationship between the person who
Speaker 3: signs my paychecks or the person who writes my reviews.
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm kind of in a bind there.
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask about, is the
Speaker 1: power dynamic that's inherent in this relationship. And I think
Speaker 1: that trips a lot of people up in the workplace
Speaker 1: because there's one thing to set a boundary or to
Speaker 1: make requests, it's another thing to do so when there's
Speaker 1: potentially negative consequences to that person not responding well to
Speaker 1: the request. And you mentioned earlier the culture of the workplace,
Speaker 1: and I wonder what is the culture of this workplace?
Speaker 1: Meaning how casual is it? Are people friends outside of work?
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of us joke that there's like the new
Speaker 3: guard and the old guard. There's the older folks, and
Speaker 3: then there's the younger crowd, and the younger crowd tends
Speaker 3: to be more aligned with each other.
Speaker 4: It's definitely a very very laid.
Speaker 3: Back the conversations that people have, the behaviors of people have,
Speaker 3: which is not what I expect from a professional environment. Now,
Speaker 3: do people contact each other outside of work? Sure, I
Speaker 3: think there's some people who get together for parties or
Speaker 3: other things. But the people in my department, for instance,
Speaker 3: who I get along with, I think really well and
Speaker 3: we really enjoy working together. You know, we don't communicate
Speaker 3: outside of work. I see them when I'm there or
Speaker 3: if we're in a meeting together, and if not, then
Speaker 3: I don't see them.
Speaker 1: I'm asking because I wonder if your boss supervises other
Speaker 1: people as well, and whether she has this kind of
Speaker 1: relationship with the other people that she manages.
Speaker 3: So she manages two other full time people, and she
Speaker 3: manages the smaller team of college kids that I used
Speaker 3: to be back when I was in that position, And
Speaker 3: I would say with a full time folks, she does
Speaker 3: not do this, but she definitely does it with the
Speaker 3: group of college kids.
Speaker 4: So the full time people. No, I don't think she
Speaker 4: acts the same way.
Speaker 1: Did you ever feel like there was some kind of
Speaker 1: romantic element to this.
Speaker 3: She's actually married, and that's not something I've ever felt
Speaker 3: in nor did I ever feel in this situation where
Speaker 3: that was ever a thing.
Speaker 1: Well, you're kind of like her wark husband. What I
Speaker 1: meant by work husband, is that you are meeting her
Speaker 1: emotional needs. So I don't know when she goes home
Speaker 1: and it's eleven o'clock at night, why she isn't telling
Speaker 1: her husband the gossip and talking about TV shows and
Speaker 1: things like that with him. But you've sort of become
Speaker 1: the person that she's using for some kind of emotional gratification.
Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing to be friends with people
Speaker 1: at work. It's another when you go home at eleven
Speaker 1: o'clock at night and you're married and you're texting your
Speaker 1: younger male coworker. Did that ever strike you as unusual
Speaker 1: in that respect?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I've probably had the thought.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I always joke around that I'm like
Speaker 3: such a sheltered, innocent person that like I just didn't think,
Speaker 3: or maybe didn't want to think, that that was something
Speaker 3: that was going on. I mean, now I step back
Speaker 3: and I think to myself, oh, God, like this is
Speaker 3: kind of a really bad situation.
Speaker 2: One of the greatest gifts a manager can have is
Speaker 2: an employee who's really conscientious, which you sound. You sound
Speaker 2: conscientious because when there's a gamp, you rise to fimit.
Speaker 2: So you said, she has a chronic illness, she's absent
Speaker 2: a lot, and then you, independently, spontaneous, will fill those gaps,
Speaker 2: will do part of her job for her. You get
Speaker 2: the responsibility, but you don't get the actual credit for it.
Speaker 2: You don't get the recognition. And that's another way in
Speaker 2: which you really provide significant service to her is to
Speaker 2: be there as a safety net, and she sounds like
Speaker 2: she needs safety nets quite frequently.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because there was a
Speaker 3: period of time where, you know, a promotion went through
Speaker 3: for her and I felt frustrated with myself because I said,
Speaker 3: you know, I really feel like, you know, she was
Speaker 3: getting so much credit for a lot of the things
Speaker 3: that I did. I carried a lot of mental load
Speaker 3: that just was not mine. Yeah, that was an interesting
Speaker 3: learning experience for me because it really felt awful.
Speaker 2: Now that you've had that learning experience, what would you
Speaker 2: do differently next time?
Speaker 3: Well, I think what I did right after it was
Speaker 3: I immediately took a look at what I was doing
Speaker 3: and what I was offering and the kind of imbalance
Speaker 3: that it existed there, and I really have pulled back
Speaker 3: and I just don't do any of the things that
Speaker 3: I was doing, because there's been situations, unfortunately, where people
Speaker 3: have taken time off and then there's not coverage. And
Speaker 3: so some of my colleagues have been in a position
Speaker 3: where they're covering a service desk for the entirety of
Speaker 3: their day for eight hours, and she's not there. It's
Speaker 3: a day that I'm off, and so people have no
Speaker 3: lunch break or no water breaks or bathroom breaks, and
Speaker 3: I mean that's just really unacceptable to me. So what
Speaker 3: I've done is I've really pulled back and I don't
Speaker 3: keep on top of all those things, and I just
Speaker 3: hope that my colleagues will reach out if they need
Speaker 3: the support.
Speaker 1: So what has happened in your relationship with her? Since
Speaker 1: you've decided that you're not going to do the things
Speaker 1: that she should be doing as a manager.
Speaker 4: I have felt so much better from my perspective.
Speaker 3: I mean, it was kind of like feeling this physical
Speaker 3: load lifted off of me. Honestly, when I stopped filling
Speaker 3: my mental space with responsibilities, I think that were hers.
Speaker 3: What has happened too with the text thing, especially since
Speaker 3: the pandemic, we started working from home and I just
Speaker 3: don't respond to them if it's not specifically asking me
Speaker 3: a question that's pertinent to my job. I don't respond
Speaker 3: to it. But what's been really difficult for me is
Speaker 3: I know another text message is coming, you know, in
Speaker 3: a day or two, and it might be the same
Speaker 3: kind of thing. I think, like two days from now,
Speaker 3: if she's bored or something, I expect another you know,
Speaker 3: message maybe to come through.
Speaker 2: So it sounds like you've made some significant changes, right
Speaker 2: You're not responding to text, you're not picking up the
Speaker 2: slack when she creates it. So you've done quite a
Speaker 2: bit to kind of step back so that at least
Speaker 2: you're not as resentful for doing so much or not
Speaker 2: getting recognized in her getting the credit, other than the
Speaker 2: fact that those things still happen and you have to
Speaker 2: continue to ignore them or manage them. What are the
Speaker 2: biggest pain points right now with her? Given that you've
Speaker 2: done some stepping back.
Speaker 4: What's the most difficult for me right now is sitting
Speaker 4: with the fact that I might have two or three
Speaker 4: days where you know, she might not bother me.
Speaker 3: Now I have to ignore or not respond to or
Speaker 3: see a name, and just the name is just so
Speaker 3: frustrating me because I'm burnt out just from like, why
Speaker 3: are you asking me about when is this class? When
Speaker 3: you know the answer, you can find the answer, Or
Speaker 3: why are you sending me this link that is something
Speaker 3: that you're interested in and I'm not really interested in
Speaker 3: then you're really trying to badger me to read it
Speaker 3: to have a conversation about it.
Speaker 4: Just really frustrates me.
Speaker 1: Are other people at work aware of this relationship that
Speaker 1: you have with Sharon? I'm curious to know if you
Speaker 1: have any other relationships at work that are actually nourishing
Speaker 1: to you, or relationships that you enjoy with other people
Speaker 1: at work, and can you tell us about what those
Speaker 1: are like.
Speaker 3: It's a good question because most of the people there
Speaker 3: we are very different generations. I don't really have anyone
Speaker 3: who I consider similar to me in any way. I
Speaker 3: don't really think there's anybody who who i'd be really
Speaker 3: close with.
Speaker 1: I'm asking only because I think that a lot of
Speaker 1: people forget that so much of our lives is spent
Speaker 1: at work, and so I think there is this question
Speaker 1: for a lot of people of well, I want to
Speaker 1: enjoy the work that I'm doing, so primarily the work
Speaker 1: needs to be fulfilling, it needs to pay my bills,
Speaker 1: and once those two things are checked off, there's also
Speaker 1: this element of I spend so much time here, I
Speaker 1: want to enjoy the people that I'm working with. Or
Speaker 1: maybe it's the people who come into the library that
Speaker 1: you really enjoy working with.
Speaker 3: I think it's the people who come in the most,
Speaker 3: especially students. I love working with them. It takes you
Speaker 3: fifteen seconds to help them. These people are so thrilled
Speaker 3: about it. I mean, I get a lot of joy
Speaker 3: from that, a lot. I love that, I love teaching
Speaker 3: and I love working with students a lot.
Speaker 2: So I want to point out to you, Paul, that
Speaker 2: I think part of the problem, the double edged sword
Speaker 2: of conscientiousness, is it takes a lot of effort to
Speaker 2: not do the thing that your insights are telling you,
Speaker 2: but I should do that. That's the right thing to do,
Speaker 2: that's the good citizen thing to do. So I think
Speaker 2: that there's still a lot of emotional labor we call it,
Speaker 2: that you're putting in to resist your natural impulse to help,
Speaker 2: to assist, to be there to make sure the mission
Speaker 2: is on track. And I think that's part of why
Speaker 2: you're exhausted, and that's why you're feeling burnt out despite
Speaker 2: the significant steps back that you've already taken.
Speaker 3: I think you're absolutely right when I see there's an
Speaker 3: issue or I see there's an opportunity, it's physically like
Speaker 3: chaining myself down to say, yes, you can do it,
Speaker 3: but you know what, don't because you're going to get
Speaker 3: to this point where you're just going to be resentful
Speaker 3: or burnt out or angry later, So you can't. It's
Speaker 3: like this crazy back and forth in your mind of
Speaker 3: trying to find this happy medium, this balance. It's a
Speaker 3: very second guessing kind of mindset where I feel like
Speaker 3: I'm in, you know where I think to myself, can
Speaker 3: I do this? And should I do this?
Speaker 4: And is it okay to say you can only email
Speaker 4: me here or there.
Speaker 1: When you got that evaluation from your boss that you
Speaker 1: were having trouble dealing with others, what did you do
Speaker 1: when you got that?
Speaker 3: My thought process was I don't want to react because
Speaker 3: I thought in a way, if I reacted, then it
Speaker 3: kind of validated why she did that. So I just thought, Okay,
Speaker 3: go ahead, and it really doesn't affect me in any way.
Speaker 3: I don't really agree with it, but you know.
Speaker 4: What are you going to do?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: I guess the thing is sometimes you might want feedback
Speaker 1: on that you might be curious about. Well, I'd like
Speaker 1: to learn and grow from this, because I don't know
Speaker 1: if you really know what her perspective is. So to you,
Speaker 1: a lot of this feels very inappropriate, and from us
Speaker 1: hearing it on the outside, we can understand why it
Speaker 1: makes you feel uncomfortable. But you might have gotten more
Speaker 1: insight if you were to say to her, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: really curious about this. I want to understand more about
Speaker 1: it so that I can do better and hear what
Speaker 1: her perspective is, and that might have opened up a
Speaker 1: conversation too, about boundaries and expectations. There hasn't really been
Speaker 1: a let's sit down and let's have a conversation about
Speaker 1: what's going on for each of us, which you can
Speaker 1: do and should do by the way, in a workplace environment.
Speaker 1: So people think, well, we're not allowed to talk about
Speaker 1: that kind of thing because it's work. But work is
Speaker 1: all about relationships.
Speaker 2: Too, especially at review time, because that's when the door
Speaker 2: is open to it.
Speaker 3: Laurie, I think you're absolutely right. It would be helpful
Speaker 3: and really interesting to hear her perspective. I think the
Speaker 3: error in my judgment, maybe is as I'm thinking, I
Speaker 3: can already tell what you're going to say, so I
Speaker 3: don't want to have this conversation with you because you're
Speaker 3: probably going to point out things that I don't agree with.
Speaker 3: You know, but obviously that gets us nowhere.
Speaker 2: If you took Lorie's suggestion, If you had taken it
Speaker 2: and said, oh, that's an interesting comment, I'd like to
Speaker 2: hear a little bit more about how you see that.
Speaker 2: Where you see that? What is it you think she
Speaker 2: would say?
Speaker 3: I think that because of how uncomfortable I feel. Maybe
Speaker 3: you know, I I come across abrasive or I just
Speaker 3: don't really want to have the conversation. I think maybe
Speaker 3: she'll pick up on that and then say, well, this
Speaker 3: is why I think you don't get along with other people,
Speaker 3: because when I try to have the conversation or point
Speaker 3: something out to you, you aren't really engaged in the conversation.
Speaker 2: Well, let's say she did say that, like, look, I'm
Speaker 2: just trying to give you the heads up so I
Speaker 2: don't have to troubly at work with it and you
Speaker 2: Peter Poyten says that I promise you'll check emails every morning,
Speaker 2: and I really prefer to have some separation between work
Speaker 2: and home life. So I'd like to kind of keep
Speaker 2: the door closed once I leave the office. What's wrong
Speaker 2: with that? Like, why wouldn't that be a fair conversation
Speaker 2: to have.
Speaker 3: I think it'd be a fair conversation to have. I
Speaker 3: think I just don't know if she would respect it.
Speaker 3: Just really don't want to have a conversation with someone
Speaker 3: who who's not going to respect what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: There's the two parts to limit setting. Is the moment
Speaker 2: where you explain the limit, but the real limit setting
Speaker 2: comes in the maintenance of the limit. It's very rarely
Speaker 2: sufficient to do it just once and then the person
Speaker 2: hops too when you're good. If you need to set
Speaker 2: limit in the first place, it means the person is
Speaker 2: probably likely to violate it. Then they'll do so again,
Speaker 2: and then you just have to do it as a
Speaker 2: reminder each time. Oh, just to remind you. I really
Speaker 2: would rather have this as an email, thanks so much.
Speaker 2: I think that what happens to you is you get
Speaker 2: thrown into this helplessnes that maybe got developed when you
Speaker 2: were a child, when you were younger, and it just
Speaker 2: makes you feel a little paralyzed and hopeless that you'll
Speaker 2: be able to do anything about it. So you do
Speaker 2: the first step kind of, but then you don't do
Speaker 2: the follow up because you're worried that it won't be sufficient.
Speaker 2: But what you really need practice doing is being able
Speaker 2: to verbalize the limit and then maintain it in the
Speaker 2: most polite and respectful way possible, instead of going into
Speaker 2: this hopelessness and paralysis of like, well, I'm screwed. There's
Speaker 2: really nothing I can do that'll get her to stop.
Speaker 2: You you haven't really overtly made her stop yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely think it's something I could work on.
Speaker 3: I've sort of done this before, it hasn't really gone
Speaker 3: the way I want, and I just don't want to
Speaker 3: keep going into the situation and get that response every time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but when you say I don't get the response
Speaker 2: I want, it means she keeps doing it. That is normal.
Speaker 2: That is part of the process of limit setting. And
Speaker 2: I think you see it as a failure or as
Speaker 2: it didn't work. When that's part of the process, you'll
Speaker 2: keep doing it and you'll keep calling her on it
Speaker 2: until she stops. But if you keep experience seeing each
Speaker 2: incident as oh, that didn't look then you're completely demotivated
Speaker 2: to maintain the limit and then it keeps getting violated.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you pointed that out, because I think you're
Speaker 3: right that I sort of looked at it as you know,
Speaker 3: I did it this one time, and I have this
Speaker 3: like fantasy in my head that it takes one time
Speaker 3: of you being what seems clear to me, But I imagine
Speaker 3: the more consistent you are over time, eventually you know correct.
Speaker 1: And if you are consistent over time and nothing changes,
Speaker 1: that's information too. So either way it's a win win
Speaker 1: because you will either make your work situation more pleasant
Speaker 1: or it won't become more pleasant, but it gives you
Speaker 1: information and then you can say, Okay, so what do
Speaker 1: I want to do, knowing that it's not going to change.
Speaker 1: You mentioned in your letter that you have some history
Speaker 1: in your family with feeling like you couldn't set boundaries,
Speaker 1: and you called it codependency. Can you tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit more about that and what feels similar to
Speaker 1: you about this situation.
Speaker 3: When I think about codependency, I think about my dad,
Speaker 3: who was very inconsistent kind of person, angry, aggressive, punch
Speaker 3: a hole through my door, knock all my things off
Speaker 3: of my shelf that meant a lot to me kind
Speaker 3: of person, and it got to the point where I
Speaker 3: would listen to his footsteps coming through our house and
Speaker 3: I'd be able to tell if he was going to
Speaker 3: be an okay mood, a bad mood, like a you
Speaker 3: can't talk to him at all mood.
Speaker 4: Kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Basically, I trained myself to be so in tune with
Speaker 3: what he needed or how you can communicate with him
Speaker 3: or how you couldn't. And that's taking me a long
Speaker 3: time to process and understand. And I find connections between
Speaker 3: some of the behaviors of sharing in some of the
Speaker 3: situations that make me feel the same way Sharon, for example,
Speaker 3: I kind of went back into that situation where you know,
Speaker 3: just by her walking in, I'd be able to tell
Speaker 3: by the look on her face if she was going
Speaker 3: to be crouchy all day. So I think generally it's
Speaker 3: just this predisposition to being so into and in tuned
Speaker 3: with people and then modifying my behavior to make sure
Speaker 3: that I'm not making them angry and anything. That also
Speaker 3: goes along with why I have so much difficulty with
Speaker 3: like the second guessing kind of thing, where if I
Speaker 3: do set a boundary I think to myself.
Speaker 4: Am I being mean? Is this you know? Am I
Speaker 4: presenting it in the wrong way?
Speaker 1: Is it reasonable?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Exactly, And so I think to myself when I'm communicating
Speaker 3: this boundary, am I being rude? Am I being abrasive?
Speaker 3: And I recognize this is a separate situation. So it
Speaker 3: frustrates me because I recognize what I experienced, this is
Speaker 3: not the same person being at my job, completely different environment,
Speaker 3: but it hits a nerve in me that makes it
Speaker 3: very difficult, I think.
Speaker 4: And this goes along with what we were talking about before.
Speaker 3: I think with like this helplessness of any time I
Speaker 3: did try to say something, it never ended well. There's
Speaker 3: always getting screamed out and invalidated and just was a
Speaker 3: really negative, bad environment.
Speaker 4: So I think it's really challenging for me.
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of a time when
Speaker 1: you tried to say something in your childhood and it
Speaker 1: didn't go well?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So I remember one time my brother has special needs
Speaker 3: and who's my best friend, So he had a lot
Speaker 3: of issues growing up with being able to use the bathroom,
Speaker 3: like just learning how to toilet train and all that
Speaker 3: kind of thing. And I remember one night I was
Speaker 3: sitting at my kitchen table and he had an accident.
Speaker 3: And my father was livid, just so angry, you know,
Speaker 3: because it would be anywhere and you might have to
Speaker 3: clean a couch or a chair or whatever where this
Speaker 3: would happen. And I was just so upset because I
Speaker 3: said to myself, this person, you know, my brother did
Speaker 3: not intentionally choose to do this, and you're a parent,
Speaker 3: and it's going to take a second for us to
Speaker 3: clean it, and heck, I'll clean it.
Speaker 4: It's not that big of a deal. And you know,
Speaker 4: he just.
Speaker 3: Kind of went into the bathroom where my brother was
Speaker 3: and just was brating it, was yelling at him for
Speaker 3: having an accident, and I was just really irate, and
Speaker 3: I said to when my father walked out of the
Speaker 3: bathrooms near me, I said, you know, he can't control this,
Speaker 3: and it's just why would you ever scream at a
Speaker 3: person like this is outrageous. I can't believe this. And
Speaker 3: he just basically screamed at me and told me that
Speaker 3: I wasn't a parent, who am I to tell him
Speaker 3: what to do, and then called me mister college educated
Speaker 3: as a pejorative, because I mean, he dropped out of
Speaker 3: high school and I think he was always really threatened
Speaker 3: and intimidated while I was living at home going to school,
Speaker 3: and so that just moment kind of sticks.
Speaker 4: In my head.
Speaker 1: It sounds like there's another parallel too, which is that
Speaker 1: sometimes you are doing Sharon's job for her, and here
Speaker 1: you were trying to do the job of a parent
Speaker 1: for your father. I'll clean it up, I'll take care
Speaker 1: of it. Here's how you should really handle this, because
Speaker 1: the person who was supposed to be the manager was
Speaker 1: not doing his job.
Speaker 4: So that sounds very familiar to Yeah. I mean that's
Speaker 4: why I think it's so hard. And I see there
Speaker 4: is that parallel.
Speaker 1: What about your mom? Were you ever able to talk
Speaker 1: to your mom in a different way than you could
Speaker 1: talk to your dad?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So I feel really fortunate to have her in my
Speaker 3: life because she is number one support kind of deal,
Speaker 3: you know, no matter what, always started to listen to me,
Speaker 3: always supportive of what I'm doing, helped me study in college,
Speaker 3: not able to pronounce any of the words when I
Speaker 3: was trying to, you know, study for exams and all
Speaker 3: this stuff. And she still, you know, tried her best
Speaker 3: and did everything and always listen. I mean, unfortunately, I
Speaker 3: think she was also a victim of my father as well.
Speaker 3: So they're divorced. They've been divorced since twenty sixteen, and
Speaker 3: a lot of what, at least in conversation with my
Speaker 3: mom and I that we've had is a lot of
Speaker 3: just kind of talking about what happened in our house
Speaker 3: and talking about our perspective. So it's been really cathartic.
Speaker 2: Well, when you were waiting outside the bathroom for your
Speaker 2: dad to come out and then you give him this
Speaker 2: assertive Hey, what are you doing? What did that feel like?
Speaker 2: Do you remember what you felt like when he was
Speaker 2: saying that to him.
Speaker 4: I think in the moment, I needed to say something,
Speaker 4: and it felt good saying it, but then afterward was like, oh,
Speaker 4: this isn't good. I mean, he was livid.
Speaker 3: I mean he just started screaming at me, basically shut up,
Speaker 3: like what are you talking about? I'm a parent, You've
Speaker 3: never been a parent, you don't know what you're talking about,
Speaker 3: and so just completely shut down anything that I have
Speaker 3: to say. And then I just kind of thought in
Speaker 3: my head, you know, like, well, this is why I
Speaker 3: don't normally say things.
Speaker 2: To you, Paul. I think part of the problem you
Speaker 2: have is that you measure your success by whether you
Speaker 2: get the person to do what you want them to
Speaker 2: do or to accept what you have to say. And
Speaker 2: the way we look at success is that the best
Speaker 2: you can do is your part. And as long as
Speaker 2: you're speaking up, as long as you're saying what you
Speaker 2: need to say, as long as you're speaking your truth,
Speaker 2: then that's what assertiveness is about. That's what empowerment is about.
Speaker 2: That you can speak up. But if you do speak
Speaker 2: up but you don't get the result you want, you
Speaker 2: actually miss out on that feeling of empowerment because the
Speaker 2: other person didn't say or react the way you wanted
Speaker 2: them to. And that's a bit of a miss for you.
Speaker 2: I don't think you give yourself enough credit when you
Speaker 2: do it, and I think it goes down in your
Speaker 2: head as a fail because, well, your dad yelled at you,
Speaker 2: but that was a really important moment in your life
Speaker 2: that you remember clearly. I'm sure your brother does as well,
Speaker 2: and yet it doesn't quite get catalogued as that's me
Speaker 2: speaking up and really risk getting screened at which indeed happened.
Speaker 2: But good for me because I stood up for my brother.
Speaker 1: Anyway, if you had not stood up for him in
Speaker 1: that moment, I think you would have remembered that moment
Speaker 1: very differently, even though you didn't get the result that
Speaker 1: you wanted. That was the example of all the many
Speaker 1: examples that you can probably give us, that was the
Speaker 1: one that first came to mind that this happened with
Speaker 1: my brother. It was so unfair, and I spoke up
Speaker 1: because I believe something different. And so even though you
Speaker 1: didn't get that result, it sounds like it was an
Speaker 1: important moment for you anyway.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, thinking about it now, if I had
Speaker 3: it, it would have been so disappointing to me.
Speaker 4: And it's funny because this is all coming together now,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: I think in that moment if I if I didn't
Speaker 3: do that, I mean, I probably would have thought about
Speaker 3: it for the rest of my life. Of like that
Speaker 3: one time that I just watched my brother get berated
Speaker 3: just completely inappropriately and for no reason at all, and
Speaker 3: that I just sat and watched it, even though I
Speaker 3: knew this was so wrong and I had to say
Speaker 3: something about it, and so I'm really glad that I did.
Speaker 3: And you know, just speaking to what guy was just
Speaker 3: saying too one hundred percent.
Speaker 4: I mean, I agree with you guys, because I.
Speaker 3: Think for me, my default is always I'm not going
Speaker 3: to get the response I want out of them. So
Speaker 3: instead of sticking up for myself or saying something, I
Speaker 3: just internalized being angry or frustrated or annoyed with them,
Speaker 3: because it's just well, why bother?
Speaker 1: When you've done this with friends or romantic relationships, has
Speaker 1: it gone better than it went with your father?
Speaker 4: Sticking up for myself?
Speaker 1: You mean, yeah, or just share you call it sticking
Speaker 1: up for yourself. I would say, you know, telling them
Speaker 1: how you feel about something that's going on in the relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I can think of a situation really a close family
Speaker 3: friend where it was another one of those situations where
Speaker 3: there were things that they were doing for the longest time,
Speaker 3: and I eventually had a conversation where you know, it
Speaker 3: was like pent up frustration for months, and you just
Speaker 3: told them exactly how I felt, and you know, they
Speaker 3: were like mortified. Had no idea, of course, because how
Speaker 3: are they supposed to know that this is how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1: And when you wait a really long time when you
Speaker 1: talk about this pent up frustration, probably took you a
Speaker 1: long time to say to your dad, this is not Okay,
Speaker 1: that probably happened so many times before you actually said that,
Speaker 1: And the same thing with this friend that you mentioned,
Speaker 1: and so part of it is recognizing something and being
Speaker 1: able to speak about it as you notice it happening,
Speaker 1: as opposed to waiting months or years to bring something up,
Speaker 1: because it's much harder than because people get into these patterns.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like with your boss, she had already
Speaker 1: gotten into this groove with you, and first you weren't
Speaker 1: really sure how you felt about it. But once you
Speaker 1: were more clear about how you felt about it, it
Speaker 1: still took you a while to say to her, hey,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, and it's so comfortable with this. And
Speaker 1: then it's harder because people are already doing something that
Speaker 1: they've been doing for a while, and they're confused. You
Speaker 1: never told me this bothered you before. It was working
Speaker 1: fine before, but it actually wasn't working fine before exactly.
Speaker 2: So let me tell you something about how therapists score
Speaker 2: these kinds of situations. We a lot to point based
Speaker 2: on the effort you put in to try and speak
Speaker 2: your truth. We accommodate no points to how that other
Speaker 2: person reacted because it's not relevant what's relevant for you
Speaker 2: is whether you can see yourself through the discomfort and
Speaker 2: speak up about the relationship, whether it's an intimate one,
Speaker 2: a familiar one, a work one. Laurie and I are
Speaker 2: always impressed when our patients are able to do that
Speaker 2: because it's so difficult.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm so ready to try something different.
Speaker 3: It's funny in this moment because I feel like I
Speaker 3: don't know. Just the thought of it makes me kind
Speaker 3: of excited.
Speaker 1: And it also translates into other areas of your life.
Speaker 1: So every time you have one of these conversations, it's
Speaker 1: not just that conversation, but it also will help you
Speaker 1: to have those conversations with other people. The more practice
Speaker 1: you get, the easier it's going to become. So we
Speaker 1: do have some advice for you, and not surprisingly, what
Speaker 1: we'd like you to do is to have a conversation
Speaker 1: with Sharon, and we would like you to go back
Speaker 1: to her and say, I've been thinking about the performance
Speaker 1: evaluation and I should have come to you earlier because
Speaker 1: I've been really curious about that one comment and I
Speaker 1: really value my work here, I really value our working relationship,
Speaker 1: and I want to understand more about that. Can you
Speaker 1: tell me what it is that motivated that remark and
Speaker 1: see what she says, and when she's saying this, you
Speaker 1: might have the tendency to regress a little bit, to
Speaker 1: go back to that young child and then teenager who
Speaker 1: really had trouble being seen and heard. And we want
Speaker 1: you to comment this from I'm an adult, and when
Speaker 1: she says these things to me, it might be difficult,
Speaker 1: it might be frustrating, but I'm an adult now and
Speaker 1: I have choices. I didn't have that, and so she
Speaker 1: will probably justify her behavior in certain ways. There might
Speaker 1: also be some points where you say, oh, I hadn't
Speaker 1: seen you know, to yourself, I hadn't seen it that way.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, that's a learning experience for me. So we
Speaker 1: want you to take in that, but we also want
Speaker 1: you to be able to tolerate the places where you
Speaker 1: have different interpretations of things than she did, or you
Speaker 1: have different feelings around what's appropriate and what's not appropriate.
Speaker 1: And then you hear what she has to say, you
Speaker 1: thank her for sharing that with you, and you can
Speaker 1: also say it's interesting that you see it this way.
Speaker 1: I want to let you know that here's how I
Speaker 1: see X.
Speaker 2: Y or Z, and I think you can say to her,
Speaker 2: you know, when I was working as an undergraduate, things
Speaker 2: were quite different because it was just a job as
Speaker 2: an undergraduate. And as you know, this is now my
Speaker 2: career path and it's something I take very seriously. So
Speaker 2: I know we used to text each other after work
Speaker 2: and chat about all kinds of things, and that was
Speaker 2: fine for me then, but right now, because I take
Speaker 2: work really seriously, I really need that recovery and rejuvenation
Speaker 2: after work, and so I really need that separation. And
Speaker 2: that's why I haven't been responding much to texts. And
Speaker 2: I'd really like to ask if it's possible that we
Speaker 2: don't text each other after work, barring real work emergencies,
Speaker 2: so that I have that separation. And then after you
Speaker 2: have that conversation time she texts you after work, you
Speaker 2: don't ignore it. You right back and you go, Sharon,
Speaker 2: just to remind you, I really prefer to keep things
Speaker 2: separate so I can really recover and rest. So I'll
Speaker 2: see you tomorrow week and talk. Then you're gonna just
Speaker 2: remind her nicely, gently, respectfully each time until she stops,
Speaker 2: and she will stop if you're consistent.
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about it, especially just because hearing you
Speaker 3: guys speak about it, it gives me some.
Speaker 4: Ideas on what to say.
Speaker 3: I think sometimes that can be difficult too, and like,
Speaker 3: how do you say this in a way that's respectful
Speaker 3: of yourself and of the other person.
Speaker 4: So I'm definitely excited to try it.
Speaker 1: This is one of those things where it was about work,
Speaker 1: but it's also about what we bring ourselves into the workplace.
Speaker 1: And I'm not just talking about what Paul brings in,
Speaker 1: but what each of us brings in to any situation.
Speaker 1: Things do come out in the workplace. I think that
Speaker 1: Sharon has her own history that she's bringing to this,
Speaker 1: and maybe she's not that able to respect people's boundaries.
Speaker 2: Relationships or relationships. And the way we tend to relate
Speaker 2: to other people, whether it's at work or with family,
Speaker 2: or with friends or with loved ones, tends to repeat
Speaker 2: We have our same stick, and we tend to repeat it.
Speaker 2: We bring the same business to work and to wherever
Speaker 2: we go. And so it's really useful for him to
Speaker 2: address this at work because it will help him address
Speaker 2: it really everywhere else. You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: We'll be back after a quick break.
Speaker 1: So, Guy, we heard back from Paul, and I'm curious
Speaker 1: to hear what happened because I think that talking to
Speaker 1: your boss can be nerve wracking in a way that's
Speaker 1: different from, say, talking to your family talking to a friend.
Speaker 1: So let's hear what happened.
Speaker 4: Hey, Laurie and Guy, it's Paul.
Speaker 3: So I spoke with my boss, Sharon, and we had
Speaker 3: a conversation about my last performance evaluation in texting when
Speaker 3: I'm not at work. Leading up to the conversation, I
Speaker 3: was a little anxious because I wasn't sure how she
Speaker 3: was going to react, and I felt a little awkward
Speaker 3: about vocalizing my perspective and the limit I want to
Speaker 3: set on texting after work. But I reminded myself that
Speaker 3: the conversation was a great opportunity to express myself. When
Speaker 3: I asked about what motivated her decision to rank me
Speaker 3: lowest and ability to deal with others, she gave examples
Speaker 3: of other colleagues in my department and the ways that
Speaker 3: they had trouble dealing with others. When I followed up
Speaker 3: asking if her rating was motivated by my interactions just
Speaker 3: with her or with my colleagues and the students I
Speaker 3: work with. She said that there was one time she
Speaker 3: noticed that it looked like I was struggling and she
Speaker 3: wasn't sure if I was okay, and that's why she
Speaker 3: chose that rating. Those answers weren't particularly helpful to me,
Speaker 3: But instead of focusing on that, I steered the conversation
Speaker 3: toward me sharing my perspective. I told her that because
Speaker 3: I work full time now and put a ton of
Speaker 3: energy and effort into my work, I really need to
Speaker 3: have separation between my work life and personal life, and
Speaker 3: it's not worth it to me to have conversations about
Speaker 3: work and life if they're not constructive and negative to that,
Speaker 3: she mentioned that life is really stressful right now and
Speaker 3: gave an example of how she was writing for fun
Speaker 3: to alleviate her own stress and suggested that I do
Speaker 3: the same. So overall, Sharon seemed to deflect the questions
Speaker 3: I asked, and her reasoning for the evaluation didn't really
Speaker 3: make much sense to me, but I felt that behind
Speaker 3: what she was saying, she knew why I was having
Speaker 3: the conversation with her and what I was asking her,
Speaker 3: even though it was difficult for her to acknowledge. It
Speaker 3: also turned out that The anticipation of what the conversation
Speaker 3: might look like was way more anxiety inducing than the
Speaker 3: actual conversation itself. Time will tell if Sharon falls through
Speaker 3: with not texting me after work, but if she does,
Speaker 3: I really feel confident reminding her that after work is
Speaker 3: my time to de stress and to relax. I think
Speaker 3: the greatest gift I got from talking to you both
Speaker 3: was in getting help changing my mindset from if this
Speaker 3: person doesn't acknowledge my point of view, it was a
Speaker 3: pointless conversation to have, so I just won't bother trying
Speaker 3: again to how anyone responds to me is about them,
Speaker 3: not me, and I get a positive point on my
Speaker 3: rubric for having the conversation, regardless that, in focusing on
Speaker 3: the choices I have, I can choose how to set
Speaker 3: and maintain limits and boundaries. I can choose how to
Speaker 3: react to someone's response to my boundaries, and I can
Speaker 3: choose what kind of conversations I have and how often.
Speaker 3: And knowing all of that makes the conversation I had
Speaker 3: with Sharon a win for me.
Speaker 2: What impressed me there was not just that he actually
Speaker 2: had the conversation, but he actually asked follow up questions
Speaker 2: and he was proud of himself for having the conversation,
Speaker 2: which was the point all along. So that made me
Speaker 2: feel good about his prospects going forward and being able
Speaker 2: to set limits with her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he did ask follow up questions. I think that
Speaker 1: it's tricky in a workplace situation because if this had
Speaker 1: been maybe a friendship or a family relationship, I I
Speaker 1: would hope that he would ask more pointed follow up
Speaker 1: questions so that when she did deflect, that he would
Speaker 1: bring her back into the conversation. Because she really didn't
Speaker 1: address anything that he brought up. He didn't really get
Speaker 1: a clear answer that you would get from your employer
Speaker 1: about here's an example of when I saw you have
Speaker 1: difficulty dealing with a colleague or dealing with me, that
Speaker 1: would have been the answer. It doesn't sound like she
Speaker 1: is really capable of providing that kind of feedback, right.
Speaker 2: I also think that she's maybe one of those people
Speaker 2: sharing his boss that maybe she will enact it in
Speaker 2: future behavior, but she's not going to give him the
Speaker 2: win in the moment.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I thought. That she understood what he
Speaker 1: was trying to say, and hopefully she'll take it to heart.
Speaker 1: I think people don't like when someone wants to change
Speaker 1: something that you want to do, and she sounds like
Speaker 1: one of those people who maybe will try to slip
Speaker 1: in a text here and there. But I think that
Speaker 1: it created a new dynamic between them where makes him
Speaker 1: seem like the more mature person in the dynamic. Absolutely
Speaker 1: it does, and so I think that that's why he
Speaker 1: felt like there was a win at the end, where
Speaker 1: he feels like, first of all, not only might it
Speaker 1: change what happens between him and Sharon, but I think
Speaker 1: that it allows him to do this in other relationships
Speaker 1: as well. And that's the important thing. That he isn't
Speaker 1: the kid who really couldn't stand up to his father anymore.
Speaker 1: That he is now an adult and he does have
Speaker 1: all these choices and he feels very empowered by them.
Speaker 2: And what we should all remember is that it is
Speaker 2: always scarier before you have the conversation than it is
Speaker 2: when you have the conversation, so you should have it. Nonetheless,
Speaker 2: next week, a woman comes to us for help connecting
Speaker 2: with her husband, her children, and her own emotions.
Speaker 4: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of
Speaker 4: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time
Speaker 4: saying I love you back.
Speaker 1: Hey fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Speaker 2: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
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