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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a young man finds himself at odds with

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Speaker 1: his boss and her lack of boundaries outside the workplace.

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Speaker 4: She would kind of contact me outside of work to

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Speaker 4: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone

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Speaker 4: light up and it'd be a text message, and I said, Hey,

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Speaker 4: if this is work related and I'm not at work,

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Speaker 4: I really would like if you could just email me instead.

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Speaker 5: Shouldn't really do that first?

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Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi, Laurie,

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Speaker 1: Hey guy, So what do we have in our box today?

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Speaker 3: We have a work situation, and the workplace is a library,

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Speaker 3: so I'm already into it. I like libraries, all right.

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Speaker 3: Here's the letter, Dear therapists. I work at a medical

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Speaker 3: library and I've had the same boss for over seven years.

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Speaker 3: I started as a college student assistant, and after grad

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Speaker 3: school I was promoted to a professional librarian position. My boss, Sharon,

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Speaker 3: is about fifteen years older than me, and as someone

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Speaker 3: predisposed to codependency, I immediately slipped into a role where

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Speaker 3: I felt responsible for her work performance. I found myself

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Speaker 3: working unplanned shifts, sometimes with as little as an hour's notice.

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Speaker 3: As she has a chronic illness and calls out frequently.

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Speaker 3: I would also listen to her complaints about what was

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Speaker 3: going on with the staff and give her information she

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Speaker 3: needed to do her job. She quickly added me on

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Speaker 3: social media accounts and would text me outside of work,

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Speaker 3: usually to gossip, including about graduate students who she thought

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Speaker 3: were interested in her. I've come to realize that her

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Speaker 3: behavior was familiar to me, as I was brought up

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Speaker 3: around this functional extended family and have a parent with

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Speaker 3: narcissistic tendencies. As my career progressed, I realized that my

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Speaker 3: boss wasn't supportive of me unless it fit her narrative.

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Speaker 3: If I didn't recognize music or movies she liked, I

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Speaker 3: was uncultured. If I wore an Apple Watch, I was

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Speaker 3: a nerd until she bought one for herself years later.

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Speaker 3: When I got an article published, she didn't acknowledge it.

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Speaker 3: When we started working from home last year, as the

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Speaker 3: pandemic began, I took it as an opportunity to reset

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Speaker 3: and to be firmer in setting boundaries. I wouldn't allow

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Speaker 3: her to involve me in her gossip. I wouldn't respond

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Speaker 3: to her text or messages when I wasn't in the

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Speaker 3: mental space to do so. Unsurprisingly, she has had a

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Speaker 3: difficult time in my changing role. If I didn't respond

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Speaker 3: to her until the following day when I engaged, she

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Speaker 3: dismissed her previous communication. If I engaged in one conversation,

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Speaker 3: she would take it as an invitation to contact me daily.

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Speaker 3: On my last performance evaluation, she rated me lowest in

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Speaker 3: ability to deal with others. And I can't help but

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Speaker 3: interpret that as passive aggressive, especially since I've never received

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Speaker 3: feedback like that from anyone else. I feel stuck and

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Speaker 3: this has causing me a lot of stress and anxiety

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Speaker 3: with my extended family and parent completely removing myself as

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Speaker 3: the own that has worked for me, But I don't

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Speaker 3: have the same option here. I'd appreciate any advice. Paul.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, people don't realize that the same relational

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Speaker 1: issues that they struggle with outside can occur in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like this is something that Paul has

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Speaker 1: dealt with in his family and now he's seeing it

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Speaker 1: again with his boss.

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Speaker 3: And I find that when people try to set limits,

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Speaker 3: they're really not that great at it. Setting the limit

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Speaker 3: is half the battle. Maintaining it is the other half,

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Speaker 3: and that's the half that most people have a really

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Speaker 3: hard time with because they figured, Okay, once I had

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Speaker 3: that difficult conversation, I don't have to repeat it or

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Speaker 3: do it again. So I'm interested to see how much

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Speaker 3: the limits were set and really how much they were maintained.

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Speaker 1: There's this misconception about boundaries that when you set a boundary,

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Speaker 1: you are asking somebody else to do something and they

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Speaker 1: are supposed to follow the boundary. And I think boundaries

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Speaker 1: are really something that you set with yourself, that you

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Speaker 1: make up your mind, this is what I am going

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Speaker 1: to do. I'm going to tell the other person what

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Speaker 1: I am going to do in this situation, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm going to follow through and do that.

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Speaker 6: So it's not so.

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Speaker 1: Dependent on whether the other person does what you ask.

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Speaker 1: It's really dependent on whether you follow your own boundary

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Speaker 1: and do what you say you're going to do if

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Speaker 1: the other person does that thing right.

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Speaker 3: So let's find out what actually happened.

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Speaker 6: Let's do that.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 3: a quick break.

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Speaker 6: I'm Lori Gottlieb and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Guy Winch, and this is Deotherapists.

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Speaker 5: So, hi, Paul, Hey, how are you great?

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Speaker 3: And thank you so much for coming on the show.

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Speaker 5: Thank you guys so much for having me.

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Speaker 3: You're very welcome. So it's a workplace situation with your BOS,

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Speaker 3: and we're curious a little bit about the history of it.

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Speaker 3: When did those boundary reviolations begin and what was the

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Speaker 3: first signs of trouble there.

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Speaker 4: I think it probably started really when I first started

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Speaker 4: working there. I think that maybe I didn't think of

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Speaker 4: them as really being boundary violations.

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Speaker 5: I kind of thought about.

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Speaker 4: It as, hey, I have a really laid back boss,

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Speaker 4: and this is pretty cool. Maybe I can be myself

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Speaker 4: and I can joke around a little bit more and

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Speaker 4: not have as much of that awkward period you know

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Speaker 4: when you first meet people at a job, you kind

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Speaker 4: of think to yourself, Okay, so how much of me

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Speaker 4: can I be? And what's the rules here? And is

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Speaker 4: are my jokes funny here are they not? And all

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Speaker 4: that kind of stuff. But what I started to realize

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Speaker 4: is that, you know, I would work till eleven o'clock

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Speaker 4: at night. That was my shift, so we were kind

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Speaker 4: of the late shift in when I worked to eleven,

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Speaker 4: I didn't go straight to sleep.

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Speaker 5: When I went home, I would usually be.

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Speaker 4: Eating snacks and watching TV shows and trying to unwind.

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Speaker 4: And so I think sometimes some of the conversations that

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Speaker 4: we had at work would bleed into outside of work.

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Speaker 4: She would kind of contact me outside of work to

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Speaker 4: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone

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Speaker 4: light up and be a text message.

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Speaker 1: When you started that job, you were still in college, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you were young. This was one of your first

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Speaker 1: professional experiences.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was nineteen when I started.

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Speaker 3: And did you know that was going to be a

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Speaker 3: career move for you or did that come about because

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Speaker 3: of the job.

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Speaker 4: So when I first started there, I think I just

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Speaker 4: was happy to have a job. But as I spent

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Speaker 4: more time working there, I thought to myself, maybe this

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Speaker 4: could be a career for me. And so I started

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Speaker 4: to contemplate that and spent more time talking to not

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Speaker 4: only my boss, but some of the other folks who

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Speaker 4: worked there to get an idea of what would this

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Speaker 4: look like. And so I ended up making a massive

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Speaker 4: leap of faith to go to graduate school to get

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Speaker 4: this job. And I touch myself, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to go for it. I'm going to try to

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Speaker 4: get this master's degree, and I hope that something opens

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Speaker 4: here for a job, because if not, I may have

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Speaker 4: some trouble finding another job. But it kind of worked

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Speaker 4: out well because I did end up getting a job there,

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Speaker 4: so I'm super fortunate.

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Speaker 1: When did you start feeling uncomfortable about the interaction between

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Speaker 1: you and your boss? And I asked about your age,

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Speaker 1: because I think when people have these early professional experiences,

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Speaker 1: they don't know what to expect in the workplace. What

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Speaker 1: are the rules here, what are the boundaries here? What

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Speaker 1: does it mean to connect with my coworkers but also

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Speaker 1: be professional? And so there was something that internally went

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Speaker 1: off in you where you said, wait a minute, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel right.

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Speaker 6: At what point did that happen?

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Speaker 4: I think it was once I moved from the temporary

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Speaker 4: part time position to my first full time position. If

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Speaker 4: you're friendly or friends with people at work, that's great.

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Speaker 4: But for me, when I left work, I wanted to

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Speaker 4: leave work at work, and I felt that once the

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Speaker 4: full time job came about for me, that clicked in

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Speaker 4: my head that Okay, this is the time where I

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Speaker 4: don't think this is appropriate.

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Speaker 3: So what did you do once you had that uncomfortable feeling.

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Speaker 3: How long did it take for you to start actually

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Speaker 3: taking action and all setting limits and what did that

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Speaker 3: look like when you say, DoD.

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Speaker 4: I think it took a long time to realize that

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Speaker 4: I should do something or I wanted to do something,

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Speaker 4: to be honest with you, because I just thought like,

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Speaker 4: it's okay, this is what my boss is like, and

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Speaker 4: that's kind of what I have to deal with. And

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Speaker 4: kind of going back to what Laurie was saying about,

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Speaker 4: you know, you're not really sure what you know what

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Speaker 4: works here and what doesn't. I'm still trying to figure

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Speaker 4: out the culture, right. I feel like I have this

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Speaker 4: weird need to respond to people. So even if I

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Speaker 4: didn't necessarily care what the conversation was about, or I

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Speaker 4: felt like we shouldn't have this conversation, I would just

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Speaker 4: try to keep it very short and brief and just

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Speaker 4: kind of say like oh, okay or cool, you know,

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Speaker 4: or these kind of one word answers, which I think

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Speaker 4: is not really effective and hasn't been effective. Otherwise I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't be in a situation where I feel like I'm

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Speaker 4: not really sure what to do at this point, because

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Speaker 4: I think I've let it go on for so long

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Speaker 4: of not really saying, hey, you know what, I really

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Speaker 4: don't want to have conversations outside of work, or hey,

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Speaker 4: i'd appreciate if you want to communicate them at work,

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Speaker 4: that we have a time I'm at work that we

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Speaker 4: do that versus whenever it works for you.

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Speaker 3: So have you not yet said those kinds of limits

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Speaker 3: with her?

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Speaker 4: So I did one time and it didn't go over

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Speaker 4: that well. I said, Hey, if this is work related

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Speaker 4: and I'm not at work, I really would like if

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Speaker 4: you could just email me instead. She didn't really do that,

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Speaker 4: and going forward, there's been several occasions too where if

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Speaker 4: it's work related, she still has texted me. So I

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Speaker 4: kind of just got to a point where I said,

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Speaker 4: you know what, it's not worth my stress to try

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Speaker 4: to control how she's going to contact me.

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Speaker 3: So the stress of that versus the discomfort that you feel,

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Speaker 3: because what you're tolerating now is the discomfort and stress

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Speaker 3: associated with that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so good at tolerating discomfort that it's just

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Speaker 4: one of those things where it's natural and normal to me.

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Speaker 4: What drives me kind of crazy is that I have

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Speaker 4: the awareness, right I can say this is making me uncomfortable,

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Speaker 4: and this is what I'd want to happen. But I

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Speaker 4: just don't have like the mental energy to keep trying

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Speaker 4: to get someone to do something that I prefer them

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Speaker 4: to do. And I don't want to be in a

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Speaker 4: position where there's there's a difficult relationship between the person

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Speaker 4: who signs my paychecks or the person who writes my reviews.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm kind of in a bind there.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask about, is the

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Speaker 1: power dynamic that's inherent in this relationship. And I think

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Speaker 1: that trips a lot of people up in the workplace

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Speaker 1: because it's one thing to set a boundary or to

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Speaker 1: make requests. It's another thing to do so when there's

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Speaker 1: potentially negative consequences to that person not responding well to

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Speaker 1: the request. And you mentioned earlier the culture of the workplace,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder what is the culture of this workplace?

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Speaker 1: Meaning how casual is it? Are people friends outside of work?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, some of us joke that there's like the new

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Speaker 4: guard and the old guard. There's the older folks and

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Speaker 4: then there's the younger crowd, and the younger crowd tends

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Speaker 4: to be more aligned with each other.

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Speaker 5: It's definitely a very very laid.

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Speaker 4: Back the conversations that people have, the behaviors that people have,

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Speaker 4: which is not what I would expect from a professional environment. Now,

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Speaker 4: do people contact each other outside of work? Sure, I

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Speaker 4: think there's some people who get together for parties or

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Speaker 4: other things. But the people in my department, for instance,

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Speaker 4: who I get along with, I think really well and

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Speaker 4: we really enjoy working together. You know, we don't communicate

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Speaker 4: outside of work. I see them when I'm there or

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Speaker 4: if we're in a meeting together, and if not, then

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Speaker 4: I don't see them.

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Speaker 1: I'm asking because I wonder if your boss supervises other

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Speaker 1: people as well, and whether she has this kind of

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Speaker 1: relationship with the other people that she manages.

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Speaker 4: So she manages two other full time people, and she

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Speaker 4: manages the smaller team of college kids that I used

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Speaker 4: to be back when I was in that position, and

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Speaker 4: I would say with a full time folks, she does

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Speaker 4: not do this, But she definitely does it with the

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Speaker 4: group of college kids. So the full time people, no,

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Speaker 4: I don't think she acts the same way.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever feel like there was some kind of

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Speaker 1: romantic element to this.

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Speaker 4: She's actually married, and that's not something I've ever felt

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Speaker 4: in Nor did I ever feel in this situation where

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Speaker 4: that was ever a thing.

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Speaker 6: Well, you're kind of like her wark husband.

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Speaker 1: What I meant by work husband is that you are

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Speaker 1: meeting her emotional needs. So I don't know when she

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Speaker 1: goes home and it's eleven o'clock at night, why she

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Speaker 1: isn't telling her husband the gossip and talking about TV

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Speaker 1: shows and things like that with him. But you've sort

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Speaker 1: of become the person that she's using for some kind

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Speaker 1: of emotional gratification. You know, it's one thing to be

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Speaker 1: friends with people at work. It's another when you go

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Speaker 1: home at eleven o'clock at night and you're married and

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Speaker 1: you're texting your younger male coworker. Did that ever strike

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Speaker 1: you as unusual in that respect?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think I've probably had the thought.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, I always joke around that I'm like

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Speaker 4: such a sheltered, innocent person that like I just didn't think,

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Speaker 4: or maybe didn't want to think, that that was something

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Speaker 4: that was going on. I mean, now I step back

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Speaker 4: and I think to myself, oh, God, like, this is

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Speaker 4: kind of a really bad situation.

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Speaker 3: One of the greatest gifts a manager can have is

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Speaker 3: an employee who's really conscientious, which you sound you sound

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Speaker 3: conscientious because when there's a gap, you rise to fill it.

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Speaker 3: So you said, she has a chronic illness, she's absent

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Speaker 3: a lot, and then you independently, spontaneously will fill those gaps,

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Speaker 3: will do part of her job for her. You get

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Speaker 3: the responsibility, but you don't get the actual credit for it.

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Speaker 3: You don't get the recognition. And that's another way in

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Speaker 3: which you really provide significant service to her is to

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Speaker 3: be there as a safety net, and she sounds like

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Speaker 3: she needs safety nets quite frequently.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because there was a

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Speaker 4: period of time where, you know, a promotion went through

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Speaker 4: for her, and I felt frustrated with myself because I said,

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Speaker 4: you know, I really feel like, you know, she was

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Speaker 4: getting so much credit for a lot of the things

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Speaker 4: that I did. I carried a lot of mental load

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Speaker 4: that just was not mine. Yeah, that was an interesting

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Speaker 4: learning experience for me because it really felt awful.

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Speaker 3: Now that you've had that learning experience, what would you

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Speaker 3: do differently next time?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think what I did right after it was

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Speaker 4: I immediately took a look at what I was doing

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Speaker 4: and what I was offering and the kind of imbalance

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Speaker 4: that existed there, and I really have pulled back and

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Speaker 4: I just don't do any of the things that I

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Speaker 4: was doing because there's been situations, unfortunately, where people have

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Speaker 4: taken time off and then there's not coverage. And so

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Speaker 4: some of my colleagues have been in a position where

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Speaker 4: they're covering a service desk for the entirety of their

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Speaker 4: day for eight hours, and she's not there. It's a

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Speaker 4: day that I'm off, and so people have no lunch

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Speaker 4: break or no water breaks or bathroom breaks, and I

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Speaker 4: mean that's just really unacceptable to me. So what I've

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Speaker 4: done is I've really pulled back and I don't keep

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Speaker 4: on top of all those things, and I just hope

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Speaker 4: that my colleagues will reach out if they need the support.

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Speaker 1: So what has happened in your relationship with her? Since

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Speaker 1: you've decided that you're not going to do the things

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Speaker 1: that she should be doing as a manager.

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Speaker 5: I have felt so much better from my perspective.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was kind of like feeling this physical

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Speaker 4: load lifted off of me. Honestly, when I stop filling

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Speaker 4: my mental space with responsibilities, I think that were hers.

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Speaker 4: What has happened too with the texting, especially since the pandemic.

359
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Speaker 4: We started working from home, and I just don't respond

360
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Speaker 4: to them. If it's not specifically asking me a question

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Speaker 4: that's pertinent to my job, I don't respond to it.

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Speaker 4: But what's been really difficult for me is I know

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Speaker 4: another text message is coming, you know, in a day

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Speaker 4: or two, and it might be the same kind of thing.

365
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Speaker 4: I think, like two days from now, if she's bored

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Speaker 4: or something, I expect another you know, message maybe to

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Speaker 4: come through.

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Speaker 3: So it sounds like you've made some significant changes, right

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Speaker 3: You're not responding to text, you're not picking up the

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Speaker 3: slack when she creates it. So you've done quite a

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Speaker 3: bit to kind of step back so that at least

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Speaker 3: you're not as resentful for doing so much and not

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Speaker 3: getting recognized in her getting the credit. Other than the

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Speaker 3: fact that those things still happen and you have to

375
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Speaker 3: continue to ignore them or manage them. What are the

376
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Speaker 3: biggest pain points right now with given that you've done

377
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Speaker 3: some stepping back.

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Speaker 4: What's the most difficult for me right now is sitting

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Speaker 4: with the fact that I might have.

380
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Speaker 5: Two or three days where she might not bother me.

381
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Speaker 4: Now I have to ignore or not respond to or

382
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Speaker 4: see a name and just the name is just so

383
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Speaker 4: frustrating me because I'm burnt out just from like, why

384
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Speaker 4: are you asking me about when is this class?

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Speaker 5: When you know the answer, you can find the answer.

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Speaker 4: Or why are you sending me this link that is

387
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Speaker 4: something that you're interested in and I'm not really interested

388
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Speaker 4: in then you're really trying to badger me to read

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Speaker 4: it to have a conversation about it.

390
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Speaker 5: Just really frustrates me.

391
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Speaker 1: Are other people at work aware of this relationship that

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Speaker 1: you have with Sharon? I'm curious to know if you

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Speaker 1: have any other relationships at work that are actually nourishing

394
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Speaker 1: to you, or relationships that you enjoy with other people

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Speaker 1: at work, and can you tell us about what those

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Speaker 1: are like.

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Speaker 4: It's a good question because most of the people there

398
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Speaker 4: we are very different generations. I don't really have anyone

399
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Speaker 4: who I consider like similar to me in any way.

400
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Speaker 4: I don't really think there's anybody who who I be

401
00:20:09,959 --> 00:20:10,799
Speaker 4: really close with.

402
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Speaker 1: I'm asking only because I think that a lot of

403
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Speaker 1: people forget that so much of our lives is spent

404
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Speaker 1: at work, and so I think there is this question

405
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Speaker 1: for a lot of people of well, I want to

406
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Speaker 1: enjoy the work that I'm doing, so Primarily, the work

407
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Speaker 1: needs to be fulfilling, it needs to pay my bills.

408
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Speaker 1: And once those two things are checked off, there's also

409
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Speaker 1: this element of I spend so much time here, I

410
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Speaker 1: want to enjoy the people that I'm working with. Or

411
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Speaker 1: maybe it's the people who come into the library that

412
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Speaker 1: you really enjoy working with.

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Speaker 4: I think it's the people who come in the most,

414
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Speaker 4: especially students. I love working with them. It takes you

415
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Speaker 4: fifteen seconds to help them. These people are so thrilled

416
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Speaker 4: about it. I mean I get a lot of joy

417
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Speaker 4: from that, a lot. I love that I love teaching

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Speaker 4: and I love working with students a lot.

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Speaker 3: So I want to point out to you, Paul, that

420
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Speaker 3: I think part of the problem, the double edged sword

421
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Speaker 3: of conscientiousness, is it takes a lot of effort to

422
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Speaker 3: not do the thing that your insights are telling you.

423
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Speaker 3: But I I should do that. That's the right thing

424
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Speaker 3: to do, that's the good citizen thing to do. So

425
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Speaker 3: I think that there's still a lot of emotional labor

426
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Speaker 3: we call it, that you're putting in to resist your

427
00:21:19,679 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 3: natural impulse to help, to assist, to be there to

428
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Speaker 3: make sure the mission is on track. And I think

429
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Speaker 3: that's part of why you're exhausted, and that's why you're

430
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Speaker 3: feeling burnt out despite the significant steps back that you've

431
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Speaker 3: already taken.

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Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely right. When I see there's an

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Speaker 4: issue or I see there's an opportunity, it's physically like

434
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Speaker 4: chaining myself down to say, yes, you can do it,

435
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Speaker 4: but you know what, don't because you're going to get

436
00:21:43,919 --> 00:21:45,519
Speaker 4: to this point where you're just going to be resentful

437
00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 4: or burnt out or angry later, So you can't. It's

438
00:21:47,919 --> 00:21:50,839
Speaker 4: like this crazy back and forth in your mind of

439
00:21:51,519 --> 00:21:54,839
Speaker 4: trying to find this happy medium, this balance. It's a

440
00:21:54,999 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 4: very second guessing kind of mindset where I feel like

441
00:21:58,239 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 4: I'm in, you know where I think to myself, can

442
00:22:02,199 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 4: I do this?

443
00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:04,759
Speaker 5: And should I do this? And is it okay to

444
00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 5: say you can only email me here or there?

445
00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:11,759
Speaker 1: When you got that evalueuation from your boss that you

446
00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: were having trouble dealing with others, what did you do

447
00:22:16,879 --> 00:22:17,559
Speaker 1: when you got that?

448
00:22:18,319 --> 00:22:20,799
Speaker 4: My thought process was I don't want to react because

449
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:23,239
Speaker 4: I thought in a way, if I reacted, then it

450
00:22:23,319 --> 00:22:26,519
Speaker 4: kind of validated why she did that. So I just thought, okay,

451
00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 4: go ahead, and it really doesn't affect me in any

452
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 4: way I don't really agree with it, but you know.

453
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 5: What are you going to do?

454
00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 3: Well?

455
00:22:32,239 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: I guess the thing is sometimes you might want feedback

456
00:22:34,919 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: on that you might be curious about. Well, I'd like

457
00:22:38,159 --> 00:22:39,999
Speaker 1: to learn and grow from this, because I don't know

458
00:22:39,999 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 1: if you really know what her perspective is. So to you,

459
00:22:43,399 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: a lot of this feels very inappropriate, and from us

460
00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 1: hearing it on the outside, we can understand why it

461
00:22:48,159 --> 00:22:51,279
Speaker 1: makes you feel uncomfortable. But you might have gotten more

462
00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 1: insight if you were to say to her, Hey, I'm

463
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: really curious about this. I want to understand more about

464
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,039
Speaker 1: it so that I can do better and hear what

465
00:23:00,199 --> 00:23:02,279
Speaker 1: her perspective is, and that might have opened up a

466
00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 1: conversation too about boundaries and expectations. There hasn't really been

467
00:23:08,479 --> 00:23:11,239
Speaker 1: a let's sit down and let's have a conversation about

468
00:23:11,479 --> 00:23:13,999
Speaker 1: what's going on for each of us, which you can

469
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,999
Speaker 1: do and should do by the way, in a workplace environment.

470
00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: So people think, well, we're not allowed to talk about

471
00:23:19,919 --> 00:23:21,519
Speaker 1: that kind of thing because it's work.

472
00:23:21,919 --> 00:23:24,799
Speaker 6: But work is all about relationships.

473
00:23:24,199 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 3: Too, especially at review time, because that's when the door

474
00:23:27,279 --> 00:23:27,999
Speaker 3: is open to it.

475
00:23:28,639 --> 00:23:30,559
Speaker 4: Laurie, I think you're absolutely right. It would be helpful

476
00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:33,239
Speaker 4: and really interesting to hear her perspective. I think the

477
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 4: error in my judgment maybe is is I'm thinking I

478
00:23:35,399 --> 00:23:37,519
Speaker 4: can already tell what you're going to say, so I

479
00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:39,559
Speaker 4: don't want to have this conversation with you because you're

480
00:23:39,559 --> 00:23:41,719
Speaker 4: probably going to point out things that I don't agree with.

481
00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:43,959
Speaker 5: You know, but obviously that gets us nowhere.

482
00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:45,959
Speaker 3: If you took Lorie's suggestion, If you had taken it

483
00:23:45,999 --> 00:23:48,239
Speaker 3: and said, oh, that's an interesting comment, I'd like to

484
00:23:48,239 --> 00:23:49,999
Speaker 3: hear a little bit more about how you see that.

485
00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:51,839
Speaker 3: Where you see that, what is it you think she

486
00:23:51,879 --> 00:23:52,319
Speaker 3: would say?

487
00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 4: I think that because of how uncomfortable I feel. Maybe

488
00:23:56,439 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 4: you know, I I come across abrasive or I just

489
00:23:59,919 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 4: don't really want to have the conversation. I think maybe

490
00:24:01,959 --> 00:24:04,079
Speaker 4: she'll pick up on that and then say, well, this

491
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 4: is why I think you don't get along with other people,

492
00:24:05,999 --> 00:24:08,519
Speaker 4: because when I try to have the conversation or point

493
00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:11,239
Speaker 4: something out to you, you aren't really engaged in the conversation.

494
00:24:11,679 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 3: Paul. Let's say she did say that, like, look, I'm

495
00:24:13,719 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 3: just trying to give you the heads up so I

496
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,519
Speaker 3: don't have to trouble at work with it, and you

497
00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:20,479
Speaker 3: repeat a point and say is that I promise you'll

498
00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:23,999
Speaker 3: check emails every morning, and I really prefer to have

499
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,719
Speaker 3: some separation between work and home life, so I'd like

500
00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:29,599
Speaker 3: to kind of keep the door closed once I leave

501
00:24:29,679 --> 00:24:32,799
Speaker 3: the office. What's wrong with that? Like, why wouldn't that

502
00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 3: be a fair conversation to him?

503
00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:36,599
Speaker 4: I think it'd be a fair conversation to have. I

504
00:24:36,639 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 4: think I just don't know if she would respect it.

505
00:24:39,919 --> 00:24:42,319
Speaker 4: Just really don't want to have a conversation with someone

506
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,039
Speaker 4: who who's not going to respect what I'm saying.

507
00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 3: There's the two parts to limit setting. Is the moment

508
00:24:48,399 --> 00:24:51,839
Speaker 3: where you explain the limit, but the real limit setting

509
00:24:51,879 --> 00:24:55,759
Speaker 3: comes in the maintenance of the limit. It's very rarely

510
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:59,599
Speaker 3: sufficient to do it just once and then the person

511
00:24:59,679 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 3: hops too when you're good. If you need to set

512
00:25:01,799 --> 00:25:04,239
Speaker 3: limit in the first place, it means the person is

513
00:25:04,239 --> 00:25:06,559
Speaker 3: probably likely to violate it, and they'll do so again,

514
00:25:07,159 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 3: and then you just have to do it as a

515
00:25:08,719 --> 00:25:11,799
Speaker 3: reminder each time. Oh, just to remind you. I really

516
00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 3: would rather have this as an email, thanks so much.

517
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 3: I think that what happens to you is you get

518
00:25:17,239 --> 00:25:20,839
Speaker 3: thrown into this helplessness that maybe got developed when you

519
00:25:20,839 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: were a child, when you were younger, and it just

520
00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:25,999
Speaker 3: makes you feel a little paralyzed and hopeless that you'll

521
00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:27,839
Speaker 3: be able to do anything about it. So you do

522
00:25:27,959 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 3: the first step kind of, but then you don't do

523
00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 3: the follow up because you're worried that it won't be sufficient.

524
00:25:33,679 --> 00:25:36,239
Speaker 3: But what you really need practice doing is being able

525
00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: to verbalize the limit and then maintain it in the

526
00:25:39,679 --> 00:25:43,519
Speaker 3: most polite and respectful way possible, instead of going into

527
00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 3: this hopelessness and paralysis of like, well, I'm screwed. There's

528
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 3: really nothing I can do that'll get her to stop.

529
00:25:48,439 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: You you haven't really overtly made her stop yet.

530
00:25:52,919 --> 00:25:55,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, I definitely think it's something I could work on.

531
00:25:55,479 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 4: I've sort of done this before, it hasn't really gone

532
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 4: the way I want, and I just don't want to

533
00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:02,039
Speaker 4: keep going into the situation and get that response every time.

534
00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, but when you say I don't get the response

535
00:26:04,199 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 3: I want, it means she keeps doing it. That is normal.

536
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: That is part of the process of limit setting. I

537
00:26:09,399 --> 00:26:11,239
Speaker 3: think you see it as a failure or as it

538
00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 3: didn't work. When that's part of the process, you'll keep

539
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 3: doing it and you'll keep calling her on it until

540
00:26:16,559 --> 00:26:20,279
Speaker 3: she stops. But if you keep experiencing each incident as oh,

541
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:24,759
Speaker 3: that didn't work. Then you're completely demotivated to maintain the limit,

542
00:26:24,799 --> 00:26:26,319
Speaker 3: and then it keeps getting violated.

543
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 4: I'm glad you pointed that out, because I think you're

544
00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:31,319
Speaker 4: right that I sort of looked at it as you know,

545
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 4: I did it this one time, and I have this

546
00:26:32,999 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 4: like fantasy in my head that it takes one time

547
00:26:35,199 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 4: of you being what seems clear to me, but I imagine

548
00:26:38,719 --> 00:26:43,999
Speaker 4: the more consistent you are over time, eventually you know correct.

549
00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 1: And if you are consistent over time and nothing changes,

550
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: that's information too. So either way it's a win win

551
00:26:52,479 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: because you will either make your work situation more pleasant

552
00:26:57,879 --> 00:26:59,799
Speaker 1: or it won't become more pleasant, but it gives you

553
00:26:59,879 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: information and then you can say, Okay, so what do

554
00:27:02,479 --> 00:27:04,519
Speaker 1: I want to do, knowing that.

555
00:27:04,479 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 6: It's not going to change.

556
00:27:06,439 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: You mentioned in your letter that you have some history

557
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: in your family with feeling like you couldn't set boundaries,

558
00:27:13,679 --> 00:27:16,519
Speaker 1: and you called it codependency. Can you tell us a

559
00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:19,839
Speaker 1: little bit more about that and what feels similar to

560
00:27:19,879 --> 00:27:21,319
Speaker 1: you about this situation.

561
00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:24,559
Speaker 4: When I think about codependency, I think about my dad,

562
00:27:24,679 --> 00:27:31,079
Speaker 4: who was very inconsistent kind of person, angry, aggressive, punch

563
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 4: a hole through my door, knock all my things off

564
00:27:33,199 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 4: of my shelf. That meant a lot to me kind

565
00:27:35,199 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 4: of person. And it got to the point where I

566
00:27:38,679 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 4: would listen to his footsteps coming through our house and

567
00:27:41,239 --> 00:27:42,319
Speaker 4: I'd be able to tell if he was going to

568
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,599
Speaker 4: be an okay mood, a bad mood, like a you

569
00:27:44,639 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 4: can't talk to him at all mood.

570
00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:49,079
Speaker 5: Kind of thing. Basically, I trained myself.

571
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 4: To be so in tune with what he needed or

572
00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 4: how you can communicate with him or how you couldn't.

573
00:27:54,319 --> 00:27:57,559
Speaker 4: And that's taking me a long time to process and understand.

574
00:27:57,839 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 4: And I find connections between some of the behaviors of

575
00:28:01,479 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 4: sharing in some of the situations that make me feel

576
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 4: the same way Sharon, for example, I kind of went

577
00:28:07,159 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 4: back into that situation where you know, just by her

578
00:28:09,999 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 4: walking in, I'd be able to tell by the look

579
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 4: on her face if she was going to be crouchy

580
00:28:15,439 --> 00:28:20,799
Speaker 4: all day. So I think generally it's just this predisposition

581
00:28:20,919 --> 00:28:23,839
Speaker 4: to being so into and in tuned with people and

582
00:28:23,879 --> 00:28:26,319
Speaker 4: then modifying my behavior to make sure that I'm not

583
00:28:26,439 --> 00:28:29,039
Speaker 4: making them angry and anything. That also goes along with

584
00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:31,319
Speaker 4: why I have so much difficulty with like the second

585
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,519
Speaker 4: guessing kind of thing, where if I do set a boundary,

586
00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:35,319
Speaker 4: I think to myself, am I being mean?

587
00:28:35,479 --> 00:28:37,559
Speaker 5: Is this you know? Am I presenting it in the

588
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:38,119
Speaker 5: wrong way?

589
00:28:38,479 --> 00:28:39,359
Speaker 6: Is it reasonable?

590
00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:40,319
Speaker 5: Yeah?

591
00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:43,199
Speaker 4: Exactly, And so I think to myself when I'm communicating

592
00:28:43,199 --> 00:28:45,839
Speaker 4: this boundary, am I being rude? Am I being abrasive?

593
00:28:45,959 --> 00:28:47,999
Speaker 4: And I recognize this is a separate situation. So it

594
00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:52,039
Speaker 4: frustrates me because I recognize what I experienced, this is

595
00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:55,199
Speaker 4: not the same person being at my job, completely different environment,

596
00:28:55,239 --> 00:28:56,999
Speaker 4: but it hits a nerve in me that makes it

597
00:28:57,119 --> 00:28:58,639
Speaker 4: very difficult, I think.

598
00:28:58,679 --> 00:29:00,639
Speaker 5: And this goes along with what we were talking about before.

599
00:29:00,679 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 4: I think with like this helplessness of any time I

600
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:06,879
Speaker 4: did try to say something, it never ended well. There's

601
00:29:06,879 --> 00:29:09,519
Speaker 4: always getting screamed out and invalidated and just was a

602
00:29:09,559 --> 00:29:11,119
Speaker 4: really negative, bad environment.

603
00:29:11,199 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 5: So I think it's really challenging for me.

604
00:29:13,639 --> 00:29:15,759
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of a time when

605
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:19,079
Speaker 1: you tried to say something in your childhood and it

606
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:20,559
Speaker 1: didn't go well?

607
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:21,079
Speaker 5: Yeah?

608
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:24,199
Speaker 4: So I remember one time. My brother has special needs

609
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:26,519
Speaker 4: and who's my best friend? So he had a lot

610
00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:29,039
Speaker 4: of issues growing up with being able to use the bathroom,

611
00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:30,839
Speaker 4: like just learning how to toilet train and all that

612
00:29:30,919 --> 00:29:33,639
Speaker 4: kind of thing. And I remember one night I was

613
00:29:33,679 --> 00:29:36,439
Speaker 4: sitting at my kitchen table and he had an accident,

614
00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 4: and my father was livid, just so angry, you know,

615
00:29:39,719 --> 00:29:41,279
Speaker 4: because it would be anywhere and you might have to

616
00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 4: clean a couch or chair or whatever where this would happen.

617
00:29:45,199 --> 00:29:48,319
Speaker 4: And I was just so upset because I said to myself,

618
00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 4: this person, you know, my brother did not intentionally choose

619
00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 4: to do this, and you're a parent, and it's going

620
00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:56,599
Speaker 4: to take a second for us to clean it, and heck,

621
00:29:56,679 --> 00:29:57,319
Speaker 4: I'll clean it.

622
00:29:57,319 --> 00:29:58,519
Speaker 5: It's not that big of a deal.

623
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 4: And you know, he just kind of went into the

624
00:30:01,239 --> 00:30:03,599
Speaker 4: bathroom where my brother was and just was brating it,

625
00:30:03,719 --> 00:30:06,799
Speaker 4: was yelling at him for having an accident, and I

626
00:30:06,919 --> 00:30:09,919
Speaker 4: was just really irate, and I said, when my father

627
00:30:09,959 --> 00:30:11,759
Speaker 4: walked out of the bathrooms near me, I said, you know,

628
00:30:11,959 --> 00:30:14,399
Speaker 4: he can't control this, and it just why would you

629
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:18,359
Speaker 4: ever scream at a person like this is outrageous. I

630
00:30:18,399 --> 00:30:21,799
Speaker 4: can't believe this. And he just basically screamed at me

631
00:30:21,879 --> 00:30:23,359
Speaker 4: and told me that I wasn't a parent, who am

632
00:30:23,399 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 4: I to tell him what to do? And then called

633
00:30:25,519 --> 00:30:28,879
Speaker 4: me mister college educated as a pejorative because I mean,

634
00:30:28,919 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 4: he dropped out of high school, and I think he

635
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,319
Speaker 4: was always really threatened and intimidated while I was living

636
00:30:33,359 --> 00:30:33,919
Speaker 4: at home.

637
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:36,399
Speaker 5: Going to school, and so that just moment kind of

638
00:30:36,399 --> 00:30:37,239
Speaker 5: sticks in my head.

639
00:30:37,639 --> 00:30:40,119
Speaker 1: It sounds like there's another parallel too, which is that

640
00:30:40,239 --> 00:30:45,319
Speaker 1: sometimes you are doing Sharon's job for her, and here

641
00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:47,639
Speaker 1: you were trying to do the job of a parent

642
00:30:47,959 --> 00:30:51,039
Speaker 1: for your father. I'll clean it up, I'll take care

643
00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:54,839
Speaker 1: of it. Here's how you should really handle this, because

644
00:30:54,919 --> 00:30:58,159
Speaker 1: the person who was supposed to be the manager was

645
00:30:58,199 --> 00:30:59,119
Speaker 1: not doing his job.

646
00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:02,199
Speaker 6: So that sounds very familiar too.

647
00:31:02,959 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's why I think it's so hard.

648
00:31:05,479 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 4: And I see there is that parallel.

649
00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:08,399
Speaker 6: What about your mom?

650
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:10,799
Speaker 1: Were you ever able to talk to your mom in

651
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:12,439
Speaker 1: a different way than you could talk to your dad?

652
00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:13,799
Speaker 5: Yeah.

653
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:15,679
Speaker 4: So I feel really fortunate to have her in my

654
00:31:15,719 --> 00:31:19,399
Speaker 4: life because she is number one supporter kind of deal,

655
00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:21,599
Speaker 4: you know, no matter what, always there to listen to me,

656
00:31:21,639 --> 00:31:24,519
Speaker 4: always supportive of what I'm doing, help me study in college,

657
00:31:25,239 --> 00:31:26,919
Speaker 4: not able to pronounce any of the words when I

658
00:31:26,959 --> 00:31:28,839
Speaker 4: was trying to, you know, study for exams and all

659
00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 4: this stuff, and she still, you know, tried her best

660
00:31:30,719 --> 00:31:33,079
Speaker 4: and did everything and always listen. I mean, unfortunately, I

661
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:35,199
Speaker 4: think she was also a victim of my father as well.

662
00:31:35,399 --> 00:31:39,199
Speaker 4: So they're divorced. They've been divorced since twenty sixteen, and

663
00:31:39,239 --> 00:31:41,399
Speaker 4: a lot of what, at least in conversation with my

664
00:31:41,439 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 4: mom and I that we've had is a lot of

665
00:31:43,039 --> 00:31:46,359
Speaker 4: just kind of talking about what happened in our house

666
00:31:46,399 --> 00:31:49,279
Speaker 4: and talking about our perspective. So it's been really cathartic.

667
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,519
Speaker 3: Well, when you were waiting outside the bathroom for your

668
00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:56,919
Speaker 3: dad to come out and then you give him this

669
00:31:56,959 --> 00:32:01,519
Speaker 3: assertive Hey, what are you doing? What did that feel like?

670
00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:03,279
Speaker 3: Do you remember what you felt like when you was

671
00:32:03,319 --> 00:32:04,599
Speaker 3: saying that to him.

672
00:32:05,159 --> 00:32:07,799
Speaker 5: I think in the moment, I needed to say something

673
00:32:07,919 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 5: and it felt good to say yeah, But then afterward

674
00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:13,199
Speaker 5: was like, oh, this isn't good. I mean he was livid.

675
00:32:13,239 --> 00:32:15,799
Speaker 4: I mean he just started screaming at me basically shut up,

676
00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:17,759
Speaker 4: like what are you talking about? I'm a parent, You've

677
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:19,759
Speaker 4: never been a parent, you don't know what you're talking about,

678
00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:23,799
Speaker 4: and so just completely shut down anything that.

679
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:24,439
Speaker 5: I have to say.

680
00:32:24,439 --> 00:32:25,959
Speaker 4: And then I just kind of thought in my head,

681
00:32:26,119 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 4: you know, like, well this is why I don't normally

682
00:32:27,719 --> 00:32:28,479
Speaker 4: say things.

683
00:32:28,239 --> 00:32:29,119
Speaker 5: To you, Paul.

684
00:32:29,199 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 3: I think part of the problem you have is that

685
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:37,959
Speaker 3: you measure your success by whether you get the person

686
00:32:38,479 --> 00:32:40,439
Speaker 3: to do what you want them to do or to

687
00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:45,799
Speaker 3: accept what you have to say. And the way we

688
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:49,079
Speaker 3: look at success is that the best you can do

689
00:32:49,239 --> 00:32:52,399
Speaker 3: is your part. And as long as you're speaking up,

690
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 3: as long as you're saying what you need to say,

691
00:32:54,519 --> 00:32:58,159
Speaker 3: as long as you're speaking your truth, then that's what

692
00:32:58,199 --> 00:33:01,559
Speaker 3: assertiveness is about. That's what empowerment is about. That you

693
00:33:01,719 --> 00:33:05,119
Speaker 3: can speak up. But if you do speak up but

694
00:33:05,159 --> 00:33:08,639
Speaker 3: you don't get the result you want, you actually miss

695
00:33:08,679 --> 00:33:13,079
Speaker 3: out on that feeling of empowerment because the other person

696
00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:15,439
Speaker 3: didn't say or react the way you wanted them to,

697
00:33:15,479 --> 00:33:16,919
Speaker 3: and that's a bit of a miss for you. I

698
00:33:16,959 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 3: don't think you give yourself enough credit when you do it,

699
00:33:19,919 --> 00:33:21,679
Speaker 3: and I think it goes down in your head as

700
00:33:21,719 --> 00:33:24,959
Speaker 3: a fail because, well, your dad yelled at you, but

701
00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:27,479
Speaker 3: that was a really important moment in your life that

702
00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:30,039
Speaker 3: you remember clearly. I'm sure your brother does as well,

703
00:33:30,399 --> 00:33:33,679
Speaker 3: and yet it doesn't quite get catalogued as that's me

704
00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:37,439
Speaker 3: speaking up and really risk getting screened at which indeed happened.

705
00:33:37,439 --> 00:33:39,879
Speaker 3: But good for me because I stood up for my brother.

706
00:33:39,959 --> 00:33:43,839
Speaker 1: Anyway, if you had not stood up for him in

707
00:33:43,919 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 1: that moment, I think you would have remembered that moment

708
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:51,039
Speaker 1: very differently. Even though you didn't get the result that

709
00:33:51,079 --> 00:33:54,119
Speaker 1: you wanted. That was the example of all the many

710
00:33:54,159 --> 00:33:57,119
Speaker 1: examples that you can probably give us, that was the

711
00:33:57,119 --> 00:34:00,359
Speaker 1: one that first came to mind that this happened with

712
00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:03,639
Speaker 1: my brother. It was so unfair, and I spoke up

713
00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:08,119
Speaker 1: because I believe something different. And so even though you

714
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:10,559
Speaker 1: didn't get that result itself, it was an important moment

715
00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:12,079
Speaker 1: for you anyway.

716
00:34:12,279 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, thinking about it now, if I hadn't,

717
00:34:14,879 --> 00:34:16,479
Speaker 4: it would have been so disappointing to me.

718
00:34:16,919 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 5: And it's funny because this is all coming together now,

719
00:34:19,399 --> 00:34:19,639
Speaker 5: you know.

720
00:34:20,119 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 4: I think in that moment if I if I didn't

721
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,119
Speaker 4: do that, I mean, I probably would have thought about

722
00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 4: it for the rest of my life. Of like that

723
00:34:26,439 --> 00:34:29,079
Speaker 4: one time that I just watched my brother get berated

724
00:34:29,279 --> 00:34:32,519
Speaker 4: just completely inappropriately and for no reason at all, and

725
00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 4: that I just sat and watched it, even though I

726
00:34:35,439 --> 00:34:37,959
Speaker 4: knew this was so wrong and I had to say

727
00:34:37,999 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 4: something about it. And so I'm really glad that I did.

728
00:34:40,999 --> 00:34:42,959
Speaker 4: And you know, just speaking to what guy was just

729
00:34:42,999 --> 00:34:45,599
Speaker 4: saying too one hundred percent. I mean, I agree with

730
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:48,559
Speaker 4: you guys, because I think for me, my default is

731
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 4: always I'm not going to get the response I want

732
00:34:51,999 --> 00:34:54,479
Speaker 4: out of them. So instead of sticking up for myself

733
00:34:54,599 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 4: or saying something, I just internalized being angry or frustrated

734
00:34:58,879 --> 00:35:01,519
Speaker 4: or annoyed with them, because it's just well, why bother?

735
00:35:01,919 --> 00:35:04,599
Speaker 1: When you've done this with friends or romantic relationships, has

736
00:35:04,639 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: it gone better than it went.

737
00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 6: With your father?

738
00:35:06,639 --> 00:35:07,519
Speaker 5: Sticking out for myself?

739
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,479
Speaker 6: You mean, yeah, or just you call it sticking up

740
00:35:10,479 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 6: for yourself?

741
00:35:10,839 --> 00:35:13,079
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, telling them how you feel

742
00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 1: about something that's going on in the relationship.

743
00:35:16,319 --> 00:35:16,559
Speaker 5: Yeah.

744
00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:18,639
Speaker 4: I can think of a situation really a close family

745
00:35:18,679 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 4: friend where it was another one of those situations where

746
00:35:21,759 --> 00:35:23,599
Speaker 4: there were things that they were doing for the longest

747
00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 4: time and I eventually had a conversation where you know,

748
00:35:27,279 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 4: it was like pent up frustration for months and you

749
00:35:29,919 --> 00:35:32,199
Speaker 4: just told them exactly how I felt, and you know,

750
00:35:32,279 --> 00:35:34,999
Speaker 4: they were like mortified. Had no idea, of course, because

751
00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:36,599
Speaker 4: how are they supposed to know that this is how

752
00:35:36,639 --> 00:35:37,199
Speaker 4: I'm feeling.

753
00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: And when you wait a really long time when you

754
00:35:40,279 --> 00:35:43,639
Speaker 1: talk about this pent up frustration probably took you a

755
00:35:43,679 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: long time to say to your dad, this is not okay.

756
00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:50,039
Speaker 1: That probably happened so many times before you actually said that,

757
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,639
Speaker 1: And the same thing with this friend that you mentioned,

758
00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: and so part of it is recognizing something and being

759
00:35:57,799 --> 00:36:01,479
Speaker 1: able to speak about it as you notice it happening,

760
00:36:01,959 --> 00:36:04,559
Speaker 1: as opposed to waiting months or years to bring something up,

761
00:36:04,559 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 1: because it's much harder than because people get into these patterns.

762
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:10,119
Speaker 1: It's kind of like with your boss, she had already

763
00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: gotten into this groove with you, and first you weren't

764
00:36:12,759 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 1: really sure how you felt about it. But once you

765
00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:17,079
Speaker 1: were more clear about how you felt about it, it

766
00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 1: still took you a while to say to her, hey,

767
00:36:19,879 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: wait a minute, and I'm not so comfortable with this.

768
00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 1: And then it's harder because people are already doing something

769
00:36:26,639 --> 00:36:29,199
Speaker 1: that they've been doing for a while and they're confused.

770
00:36:29,279 --> 00:36:31,119
Speaker 1: You never told me this bothered you before. It was

771
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: working fine before, but it actually wasn't working fine before exactly.

772
00:36:36,439 --> 00:36:39,199
Speaker 3: So let me tell you something about how therapists score

773
00:36:39,839 --> 00:36:44,039
Speaker 3: these kinds of situations. We a lot to point based

774
00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:47,159
Speaker 3: on the effort you put in to try and speak

775
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 3: your truth. We accommodate no points to how that other

776
00:36:51,959 --> 00:36:56,479
Speaker 3: person reacted because it's not relevant. What's relevant for you

777
00:36:57,319 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: is whether you can see yourself through the discomfort and

778
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:05,559
Speaker 3: speak up about the relationship, whether it's an intimate one,

779
00:37:05,559 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: a familiar one, the work one. Laurie and I are

780
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,479
Speaker 3: always impressed when I patients that are able to do that,

781
00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:11,999
Speaker 3: because it's so difficult.

782
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I'm so ready to try something different.

783
00:37:16,199 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 4: It's funny in this moment because I feel like I

784
00:37:18,759 --> 00:37:20,119
Speaker 4: don't know. Just the thought of it makes me kind

785
00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:20,639
Speaker 4: of excited.

786
00:37:20,919 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 1: And it also translates into other areas of your life.

787
00:37:23,399 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: So every time you have one of these conversations, it's

788
00:37:26,519 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: not just that conversation, but it also will help you

789
00:37:30,479 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: to have those conversations with other people. The more practice

790
00:37:35,399 --> 00:37:42,679
Speaker 1: you get, the easier it's going to become. So we

791
00:37:42,759 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: do have some advice for you, and not surprisingly, what

792
00:37:47,919 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 1: we'd like you to do is to have a conversation

793
00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:54,599
Speaker 1: with Sharon, and we would like you to go back

794
00:37:54,599 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: to her and say, I've been thinking about the performance

795
00:38:00,399 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 1: evaluation and I should have come to you earlier because

796
00:38:05,919 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: I've been really curious about that one comment. And I

797
00:38:09,799 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: really value my work here, I really value our working

798
00:38:14,279 --> 00:38:17,999
Speaker 1: relationship and I want to understand more about that. Can

799
00:38:18,039 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: you tell me what it is that motivated that remark

800
00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: and see what she says and when she's saying this,

801
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: you might have the tendency to regress a little bit,

802
00:38:31,919 --> 00:38:35,599
Speaker 1: to go back to that young child and then teenager

803
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:41,159
Speaker 1: who really had trouble being seen and heard. And we

804
00:38:41,199 --> 00:38:44,039
Speaker 1: want you to comment this from I'm an adult, and

805
00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 1: when she says these things to me, it might be difficult,

806
00:38:46,479 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: it might be frustrating, but I'm an adult now and

807
00:38:49,839 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 1: I have choices. I didn't have that, and so she

808
00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: will probably justify her behavior in certain ways. There might

809
00:38:59,319 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: also be some points where you say, oh, I hadn't

810
00:39:00,879 --> 00:39:02,559
Speaker 1: seen you know, to yourself, I hadn't seen it that way.

811
00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:05,679
Speaker 1: That's interesting. That's a learning experience for me. So we

812
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,079
Speaker 1: want you to take in that. But we also want

813
00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:10,679
Speaker 1: you to be able to tolerate the places where you

814
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: have different interpretations of things than she did, or you

815
00:39:13,399 --> 00:39:17,679
Speaker 1: have different feelings around what's appropriate and what's not appropriate.

816
00:39:18,639 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: And then you hear what she has to say, you

817
00:39:20,279 --> 00:39:22,559
Speaker 1: thank her for sharing that with you, and you can

818
00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 1: also say it's interesting that you see it this way.

819
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:29,119
Speaker 6: I want to let you know that here's how I

820
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,599
Speaker 6: see X.

821
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 3: Y or Z, and I think you can say to her.

822
00:39:32,799 --> 00:39:36,119
Speaker 3: You know, when I was working as an undergraduate, things

823
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 3: were quite different because it was just a job as

824
00:39:38,919 --> 00:39:42,119
Speaker 3: an undergraduate. And as you know, this is now my

825
00:39:42,199 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 3: career path and it's something I take very seriously. So

826
00:39:45,879 --> 00:39:47,919
Speaker 3: I know we used to text each other after work

827
00:39:47,959 --> 00:39:50,519
Speaker 3: and chat about all kinds of things, and that was

828
00:39:50,519 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 3: fine for me then, but right now, because I take

829
00:39:53,959 --> 00:39:58,479
Speaker 3: work really seriously, I really need that recovery and rejuvenation

830
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 3: after work, and so I really need that separation. And

831
00:40:02,799 --> 00:40:05,639
Speaker 3: that's why I haven't been responding much to texts. And

832
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:08,079
Speaker 3: I'd really like to ask if it's possible that we

833
00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 3: don't text each other after work, borring real work emergencies,

834
00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:15,959
Speaker 3: so that I have that separation. And then after you

835
00:40:15,999 --> 00:40:21,119
Speaker 3: have that conversation, anytime she texts you after work, you

836
00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:23,679
Speaker 3: don't ignore it. You right back and you go, Sharon,

837
00:40:23,759 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 3: just to remind you, I really prefer to keep things

838
00:40:26,919 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 3: separate so I can really recover and rest. So I'll

839
00:40:29,919 --> 00:40:32,639
Speaker 3: see you tomorrow week and talk. Then you're gonna just

840
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 3: remind her nicely, gently, respectfully each time until she stops,

841
00:40:36,919 --> 00:40:38,639
Speaker 3: and she will stop if you're consistent.

842
00:40:39,279 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 4: I'm really excited about it, especially just because hearing you

843
00:40:41,799 --> 00:40:43,999
Speaker 4: guys speak about it, it gives.

844
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,959
Speaker 5: Me some ideas on what to say.

845
00:40:45,999 --> 00:40:48,159
Speaker 4: I think sometimes that can be difficult too, and like,

846
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,999
Speaker 4: how do you say this in a way that's respectful

847
00:40:50,999 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 4: of yourself and of the other person.

848
00:40:53,279 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 5: So I'm definitely excited to try it.

849
00:41:03,319 --> 00:41:05,519
Speaker 1: This is one of those things where it was about work,

850
00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: but it's also about what we bring ourselves into the workplace.

851
00:41:09,879 --> 00:41:12,159
Speaker 1: And I'm not just talking about what Paul brings in,

852
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: but what each of us brings in to any situation.

853
00:41:16,279 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: Things do come out in the workplace. I think that

854
00:41:19,279 --> 00:41:22,039
Speaker 1: Sharon has her own history that she's bringing to this,

855
00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: and maybe she's not that able to respect people's boundaries.

856
00:41:26,159 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 3: Relationships or relationships. And the way we tend to relate

857
00:41:28,839 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 3: to other people, whether it's at work or with family,

858
00:41:31,839 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 3: or with friends or with loved ones, tends to repeat.

859
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 3: We have our same stick, and we tend to repeat it.

860
00:41:37,439 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 3: We bring the same business to work and to wherever

861
00:41:40,399 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: we go. And so it's really useful for him to

862
00:41:43,879 --> 00:41:46,159
Speaker 3: address this at work because it will help him address

863
00:41:46,199 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 3: it really everywhere else. You're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio.

864
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:57,679
Speaker 3: We'll be back after a quick break.

865
00:42:09,959 --> 00:42:12,199
Speaker 1: So, Guy, we heard back from Paul, and I'm curious

866
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,599
Speaker 1: to hear what happened because I think that talking to

867
00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:16,679
Speaker 1: your boss can be nerve wracking in a way that's

868
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: different from, say, talking to your family or talking to

869
00:42:19,399 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: a friend.

870
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:21,999
Speaker 6: So let's hear what happened.

871
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 4: Hey, Laurie and Guy, it's Paul. So I spoke with

872
00:42:26,279 --> 00:42:28,959
Speaker 4: my boss, Sharon, and we had a conversation about my

873
00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:31,959
Speaker 4: last performance evaluation in texting when I'm not at work.

874
00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 4: Leading up to the conversation, I was a little anxious

875
00:42:34,839 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 4: because I wasn't sure how she was going to react,

876
00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:40,159
Speaker 4: and I felt a little awkward about vocalizing my perspective

877
00:42:40,159 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 4: and the limit I want to set on texting after work.

878
00:42:42,759 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 4: But I reminded myself that the conversation was a great

879
00:42:45,279 --> 00:42:49,199
Speaker 4: opportunity to express myself. When I asked about what motivated

880
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,559
Speaker 4: her decision to rank me lowest and ability to deal

881
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 4: with others, she gave examples of other colleagues in my

882
00:42:54,919 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 4: department and the ways that they had trouble dealing with others.

883
00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 4: When I followed up asking if her rating was motivated

884
00:43:00,919 --> 00:43:04,039
Speaker 4: by my interactions just with her or with my colleagues

885
00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:06,159
Speaker 4: and the students I work with. She said that there

886
00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 4: was one time she noticed that it looked like I

887
00:43:07,999 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 4: was struggling and she wasn't sure if I was okay,

888
00:43:10,319 --> 00:43:14,039
Speaker 4: and that's why she chose that rating. Those answers weren't

889
00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 4: particularly helpful to me. But instead of focusing on that,

890
00:43:16,799 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 4: I steered the conversation toward me and sharing my perspective.

891
00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 4: I told her that because I work full time now

892
00:43:22,279 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 4: and put a ton of energy and effort into my work,

893
00:43:24,399 --> 00:43:26,959
Speaker 4: I really need to have separation between my work life

894
00:43:26,999 --> 00:43:29,159
Speaker 4: and personal life, and it's not worth it to me

895
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 4: to have conversations about work and life if they're not

896
00:43:31,399 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 4: constructive and negative to that, she mentioned that life is

897
00:43:34,839 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 4: really stressful right now and gave an example of how

898
00:43:37,439 --> 00:43:39,679
Speaker 4: she was writing for fun to alleviate her own stress

899
00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,559
Speaker 4: and suggested that I do the same. So overall, Sharon

900
00:43:43,639 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 4: seemed to deflect the questions I asked in her reasoning

901
00:43:46,479 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 4: for the evaluation didn't really make much sense to me,

902
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 4: but I felt that behind what she was saying, she

903
00:43:51,439 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 4: knew why I was having the conversation with her and

904
00:43:53,839 --> 00:43:55,919
Speaker 4: what I was asking her, even though it was difficult

905
00:43:55,959 --> 00:43:58,559
Speaker 4: for her to acknowledge. It also turned out that the

906
00:43:58,599 --> 00:44:01,599
Speaker 4: anticipation of what the conversation might look like was way

907
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 4: more anxiety inducing than the actual conversation itself. Time will

908
00:44:05,839 --> 00:44:08,559
Speaker 4: tell if Sharon falls through with not texting me after work,

909
00:44:08,599 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 4: but if she does, I really feel confident reminding her

910
00:44:11,479 --> 00:44:13,439
Speaker 4: that after work is my time to de stress and

911
00:44:13,479 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 4: to relax. I think the greatest gift I got from

912
00:44:16,839 --> 00:44:18,999
Speaker 4: talking to you both was in getting help changing my

913
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 4: mindset from if this person doesn't acknowledge my point of view,

914
00:44:22,479 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 4: it was a pointless conversation to have. So I just

915
00:44:24,479 --> 00:44:28,079
Speaker 4: won't bother trying again to how anyone responds to me

916
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 4: is about them, not me, and I get a positive

917
00:44:30,799 --> 00:44:34,159
Speaker 4: point on my rubric for having the conversation, regardless that,

918
00:44:34,279 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 4: in focusing on the choices I have, I can choose

919
00:44:37,279 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 4: how to set and maintain limits and boundaries. I can

920
00:44:39,879 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 4: choose how to react to someone's response to my boundaries,

921
00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:45,639
Speaker 4: and I can choose what kind of conversations I have

922
00:44:45,759 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 4: and how often. And knowing all of that makes the

923
00:44:48,399 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 4: conversation I had with Sharon a win for me.

924
00:44:54,639 --> 00:44:56,639
Speaker 3: What impressed me there was not just that he actually

925
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 3: had the conversation, but he actually asked follow up questions,

926
00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:02,999
Speaker 3: and he was proud of himself for having the conversation,

927
00:45:03,079 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 3: which was the point all along. So that made me

928
00:45:05,839 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 3: feel good about his prospects going forward and being able

929
00:45:08,759 --> 00:45:09,679
Speaker 3: to set limits with her.

930
00:45:09,839 --> 00:45:11,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, he did ask follow up questions.

931
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: I think that it's tricky in a workplace situation because

932
00:45:14,759 --> 00:45:17,639
Speaker 1: if this had been maybe a friendship or a family relationship,

933
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:21,959
Speaker 1: I would hope that he would ask more pointed follow

934
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:24,439
Speaker 1: up questions so that when she did deflect, that he

935
00:45:24,439 --> 00:45:27,599
Speaker 1: would bring her back into the conversation. Because she really

936
00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 1: didn't address anything that he brought up. He didn't really

937
00:45:31,959 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: get a clear answer that you would get from your

938
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 1: employer about here's an example of when I saw you

939
00:45:37,399 --> 00:45:41,199
Speaker 1: have difficulty dealing with a colleague or dealing with me,

940
00:45:41,959 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: that would have been the answer. It doesn't sound like

941
00:45:43,839 --> 00:45:48,479
Speaker 1: she is really capable of providing that kind of feedback, right.

942
00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 3: I also think that she's maybe one of those people

943
00:45:50,519 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 3: sharing his boss that maybe she will enact it in

944
00:45:53,839 --> 00:45:55,679
Speaker 3: future behavior, but she's not going to give him the

945
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 3: win in the moment.

946
00:45:56,919 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I thought, that she understood what he

947
00:46:00,399 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: was trying to say, and hopefully she'll take it to heart.

948
00:46:04,399 --> 00:46:07,079
Speaker 1: I think people don't like when someone wants to change

949
00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:09,479
Speaker 1: something that you want to do, and she sounds like

950
00:46:09,519 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: one of those people who maybe will try to slip

951
00:46:11,799 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: in a text here and there. But I think that

952
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:17,919
Speaker 1: it created a new dynamic between them where makes him

953
00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: seem like the more mature person in the dynamic. Absolutely

954
00:46:23,319 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: it does, and so I think that that's why he

955
00:46:25,279 --> 00:46:27,039
Speaker 1: felt like there was a win at the end, where

956
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: he feels like, first of all, not only might it

957
00:46:29,399 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: change what happens between him and Sharon, but I think

958
00:46:31,839 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: that it allows him to do this in other relationships

959
00:46:34,279 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: as well.

960
00:46:35,159 --> 00:46:36,199
Speaker 6: And that's the important thing.

961
00:46:36,199 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: That he isn't the kid who really couldn't stand up

962
00:46:39,839 --> 00:46:42,159
Speaker 1: to his father anymore. That he is now an adult

963
00:46:42,199 --> 00:46:43,959
Speaker 1: and he does have all these choices and he feels

964
00:46:44,119 --> 00:46:45,159
Speaker 1: very empowered by them.

965
00:46:45,399 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 3: And what we should all remember is that it is

966
00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 3: always scarier before you have the conversation than it is

967
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 3: when you have the conversation, so you should have it. Nonetheless,

968
00:46:59,839 --> 00:47:02,679
Speaker 3: next week, a woman comes to us for help connecting

969
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,999
Speaker 3: with her husband, her children, and her own emotions.

970
00:47:06,279 --> 00:47:09,079
Speaker 1: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of

971
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: saying hey, he loves me like I have a hard

972
00:47:11,319 --> 00:47:14,519
Speaker 1: time saying I love you. Beath Hey, fellow travelers, if

973
00:47:14,519 --> 00:47:17,679
Speaker 1: you're enjoying our podcast each week, don't forget to subscribe

974
00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 1: for free so that you don't miss any episodes, and

975
00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:23,519
Speaker 1: please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about

976
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:26,679
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977
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: really help people to find the show.

978
00:47:28,839 --> 00:47:30,999
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

979
00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 3: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

980
00:47:36,479 --> 00:47:38,519
Speaker 6: Our executive producer is Noel Brown.

981
00:47:38,919 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: We're produced and edited by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and

982
00:47:42,359 --> 00:47:46,199
Speaker 1: Chris Childs. Our interns are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton.

983
00:47:46,639 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Alison Wright and to our podcast fairy

984
00:47:49,759 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: Godmother Katie Kuric.

985
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

986
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:57,559
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.