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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a young man finds himself at odds with

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Speaker 1: his boss and her lack of boundaries outside the workplace.

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Speaker 3: She would kind of contact me outside of work to

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Speaker 3: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone

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Speaker 3: light up and it'd be a text message, and I said, Hey,

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Speaker 3: if this is work related and I'm not at work,

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Speaker 3: I really would like if you could just email me instead.

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Speaker 4: She didn't really do that.

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Speaker 1: First. A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychologue advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi, Laurie,

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Speaker 1: Hey guy, So what do we have in our box today?

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Speaker 2: We have a work situation, and the workplace is a library,

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Speaker 2: so I'm already into it. I like libraries, all right.

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Speaker 2: Here's the letter deotherapists. I work at a medical library

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Speaker 2: and I've had the same boss for over seven years.

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Speaker 2: I started as a college student assistant, and after grad school,

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Speaker 2: I was promoted to a professional librarian position. My boss, Sharon,

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Speaker 2: is about fifteen years older than me, and as someone

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Speaker 2: predisposed codependency, I immediately slipped into a role where I

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Speaker 2: felt responsible for her work performance. I found myself working

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Speaker 2: unplanned shifts, sometimes with as little as an hour's notice.

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Speaker 2: As she has a chronic illness and calls out frequently.

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Speaker 2: I would also listen to her complaints about what was

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Speaker 2: going on with the staff and give her information she

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Speaker 2: needed to do her job. She quickly added me on

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Speaker 2: social media accounts and would text me outside of work,

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Speaker 2: usually to gossip, including about graduate students who she thought

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Speaker 2: were interested in her. I've come to realize that her

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Speaker 2: behavior was familiar to me, as I was brought up

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Speaker 2: around this functional extended family and have a parent with

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Speaker 2: narcissistic tendencies. As my career progressed, I realized that my

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Speaker 2: boss wasn't supportive of me unless it fit her narrative.

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Speaker 2: If I didn't recognize music or movies she liked, I

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Speaker 2: was uncultured. If I wore an Apple Watch, I was

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Speaker 2: a nerd until she bought one for herself years later.

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Speaker 2: When I got an article published, she didn't acknowledge it.

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Speaker 2: When we started working from home last year, as the

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Speaker 2: pandemic began, I took it as an opportunity to reset

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Speaker 2: and to be firmer in setting boundaries. I wouldn't allow

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Speaker 2: her to involve me in her gossip. I wouldn't respond

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Speaker 2: to her text or messages when I wasn't in the

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Speaker 2: mental space to do so. Unsurprisingly, she has had a

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Speaker 2: difficult time with my changing role. If I didn't respond

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Speaker 2: to her until the following day, when I engaged, she

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Speaker 2: dismissed her previous communication. If I engaged in one conversation,

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Speaker 2: she would take it as an invitation to contact me daily.

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Speaker 2: On my last performance evaluation, she rated me lowest in

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Speaker 2: ability to deal with others. And I can't help but

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Speaker 2: interpret that as passive aggressive, especially since I've never received

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Speaker 2: feedback like that from anyone else. I feel stuck and

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Speaker 2: this has causing me a lot of stress and anxiety

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Speaker 2: with my extended family and parent. Completely removing myself is

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Speaker 2: the only thing that has worked for me, But I

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Speaker 2: don't have the same option here. I'd appreciate any advice. Paul.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, people don't realize that the same relational

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Speaker 1: issues that they struggle with outside can occur in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like this is something that Paul has

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Speaker 1: dealt with in his family and now he's seeing it

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Speaker 1: again with his boss.

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Speaker 2: And I find that when people try to set limits,

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Speaker 2: they're really not that great at it. Setting the limit

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Speaker 2: is half the battle. Maintaining it is the other half,

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Speaker 2: and that's the half that most people have a really

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Speaker 2: hard time with because they figured Okay. Once I had

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Speaker 2: that difficult conversation, I don't have to repeat it or

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Speaker 2: do it again. So I'm interested to see how much

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Speaker 2: the limits were set and really how much they were maintained.

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Speaker 1: There's this misconception about boundaries that when you set a boundary,

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Speaker 1: you are asking somebody else to do something and they

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Speaker 1: are supposed to follow the boundary. And I think boundaries

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Speaker 1: are really something that you set with yourself, that you

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Speaker 1: make up your mind this is what I am going

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Speaker 1: to do. I'm going to tell the other person what

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Speaker 1: I am going to do in this situation, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm going to follow through and do that. So it's

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Speaker 1: not so dependent on whether the other person does what

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Speaker 1: you ask. It's really dependent on whether you follow your

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Speaker 1: own boundary and do what you say you're going to

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Speaker 1: do if the other person does that thing.

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Speaker 2: Right, So let's find out what actually happened.

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Speaker 1: Let's do that.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 2: a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Winch

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Speaker 2: and this is Deotherapists.

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Speaker 4: So Hi, Paul, Hey, how are you great?

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Speaker 2: And thank you so much for coming on the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you guys so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: You're very welcome. So it's a workplace situation with your BOS,

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Speaker 2: and we're curious a little bit about the history of it.

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Speaker 2: When did those boundary violations begin and what was the

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Speaker 2: first signs of trouble there.

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Speaker 3: I think it probably started really when I first started

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Speaker 3: working there. I think that maybe a I didn't think

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Speaker 3: of them as really being boundary violations.

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Speaker 4: That I kind of thought about it.

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Speaker 3: As, Hey, I have a really laid back boss, and

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Speaker 3: this is pretty cool. Maybe I can be myself and

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Speaker 3: I can joke around a little bit more or not

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Speaker 3: have as much of that awkward period you know when

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Speaker 3: you first meet people at a job, you kind of

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Speaker 3: think to yourself, Okay, so how much of me can

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Speaker 3: I be? And what's the rules here? And is are

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Speaker 3: my jokes funny? Here are they not? And all that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But what I started to realize is that,

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Speaker 3: you know, I would work till eleven o'clock at night.

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Speaker 3: That was my shift, so we were kind of the

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Speaker 3: late shift in when I worked to eleven, I didn't

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Speaker 3: go straight to sleep.

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Speaker 4: When I went home, I would usually.

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Speaker 3: Be eating snacks and watching TV shows and trying to unwind,

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Speaker 3: and so I think sometimes some of the conversations that

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Speaker 3: we had at work would bleed into outside of work.

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Speaker 3: She would kind of contact me outside of work to

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Speaker 3: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone

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Speaker 3: light up and it be a text message.

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Speaker 1: When you started that job, you were still in college, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you were young. This was one of your first

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Speaker 1: professional experien operiences.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was nineteen when I started.

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Speaker 2: And did you know that was going to be a

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Speaker 2: career move for you or did that come about because

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Speaker 2: of the job.

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Speaker 3: So when I first started there, I think I just

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Speaker 3: was happy to have a job. But as I spent

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Speaker 3: more time working there, I thought to myself, maybe this

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Speaker 3: could be a career for me. And so I started

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Speaker 3: to contemplate that and spent more time talking to not

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Speaker 3: only my boss, but some of the other folks who

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Speaker 3: worked there to get an idea of what would this

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Speaker 3: look like. And so I ended up making a massive

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Speaker 3: leap of faith to go to graduate school to get

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Speaker 3: this job. And I such myself, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to go for it. I'm going to try to

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Speaker 3: get this master's degree, and I hope that something opens

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Speaker 3: here for a job, because if not, I may have

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Speaker 3: some trouble finding another job. But it kind of worked

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Speaker 3: out well because I did end up getting a job there,

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Speaker 3: so I'm super fortunate.

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Speaker 1: When did you start feeling uncomfortable about the interaction between

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Speaker 1: you and your boss? And I asked about your age

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Speaker 1: because I think when people have these early professional experiences,

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Speaker 1: they don't know what to expect in the workplace. What

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Speaker 1: are the rules here, what are the boundaries here? What

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Speaker 1: does it mean to connect with my coworkers but also

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Speaker 1: be professional? And so there was something that internally went

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Speaker 1: off in you where you said, wait a minute, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel right. At what point did that happen?

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Speaker 3: I think it was once I moved from the temporary

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Speaker 3: part time position to my first full time position. If

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Speaker 3: you're friendly or friends with people at work, that's great.

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Speaker 3: But for me, when I left work, I wanted to

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Speaker 3: leave work at work, and I felt that once the

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Speaker 3: full time job came about for me, that clicked in

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Speaker 3: my head that Okay, this is the time where I

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Speaker 3: don't think this is appropriate.

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Speaker 2: So what did you do once you had that uncomfortable feeling?

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Speaker 2: How long did it take for you to start actually

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Speaker 2: taking action or setting limits? And what did that look

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Speaker 2: like when you started.

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Speaker 3: I think it took a long time to realize that

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Speaker 3: I should do something or I wanted to do something,

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Speaker 3: to be honest with you, because I just thought like,

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Speaker 3: it's okay, this is what my boss is like, and

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Speaker 3: that's kind of what I have to deal with. And

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Speaker 3: kind of going back to what Laurie was saying about,

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Speaker 3: you know, you're not really sure what you know, what

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Speaker 3: works here and what doesn't. I'm still trying to figure

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Speaker 3: out the culture, right. I feel like I have this

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Speaker 3: weird need to respond to people. So even if I

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Speaker 3: didn't necessarily care what the conversation was about, or I

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Speaker 3: felt like we shouldn't have this conversation, I would just

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Speaker 3: try to keep it very short and brief and just

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Speaker 3: kind of say like oh, okay or cool, you know,

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Speaker 3: or these kind of one word answers, which I think

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Speaker 3: is not really effective and hasn't been effective. Otherwise I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be in a situation where I feel like I'm

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Speaker 3: not really sure what to do at this point, because

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Speaker 3: I think I've let it go on for so long

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Speaker 3: of not really saying, hey, you know what, I really

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Speaker 3: don't want to have conversations outside of work, or Hey,

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Speaker 3: i'd appreciate if you want to communicate them at work,

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Speaker 3: that we have a time at work that we do

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Speaker 3: that versus whenever it works for you.

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Speaker 2: So have you not yet said those kinds of limits

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Speaker 2: with her?

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Speaker 3: So I did one time and it didn't go over

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Speaker 3: that well. I said, Hey, if this is work related

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Speaker 3: and I'm not at work, I really would like if

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Speaker 3: you could just email me instead. She didn't really do that,

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Speaker 3: and going forward, there's been several occasions too where if

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Speaker 3: it's work related, she still has texted me. So I

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Speaker 3: kind of just got to a point where I said,

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Speaker 3: you know what, it's not worth my stress to try

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Speaker 3: to control how she's going to contact me.

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Speaker 2: So the stress of that versus the discomfort that you feel,

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Speaker 2: because what you're tolerating now is the discomfort and stress

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Speaker 2: associated with that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so good at tolerating discomfort that it's just

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Speaker 3: one of those things where it's natural and normal to me.

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Speaker 3: What drives me kind of crazy is that I have

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Speaker 3: the awareness, right, I can say this is making me uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: and this is what I'd want to happen, But I

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Speaker 3: just don't have like the mental energy to keep trying

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Speaker 3: to get someone to do something that I prefer them

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 4: And I don't want to be in a position.

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Speaker 3: Where there's there's a difficult relationship between the person who

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Speaker 3: signs my paychecks or the person who writes my reviews.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I'm kind of in a bind there.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask about, is the

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Speaker 1: power dynamic that's inherent in this relationship. And I think

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Speaker 1: that trips a lot of people up in the workplace

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Speaker 1: because there's one thing to set a boundary or to

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Speaker 1: make requests, it's another thing to do so when there's

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Speaker 1: potentially negative consequences to that person not responding well to

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Speaker 1: the request. And you mentioned earlier the culture of the workplace,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder what is the culture of this workplace?

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Speaker 1: Meaning how casual is it? Are people friends outside of work?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, some of us joke that there's like the new

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Speaker 3: guard and the old guard. There's the older folks, and

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Speaker 3: then there's the younger crowd, and the younger crowd tends

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Speaker 3: to be more aligned with each other.

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Speaker 4: It's definitely a very very laid.

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Speaker 3: Back the conversations that people have, the behaviors of people have,

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Speaker 3: which is not what I expect from a professional environment. Now,

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Speaker 3: do people contact each other outside of work? Sure, I

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Speaker 3: think there's some people who get together for parties or

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Speaker 3: other things. But the people in my department, for instance,

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Speaker 3: who I get along with, I think really well and

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Speaker 3: we really enjoy working together. You know, we don't communicate

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Speaker 3: outside of work. I see them when I'm there or

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Speaker 3: if we're in a meeting together, and if not, then

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Speaker 3: I don't see them.

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Speaker 1: I'm asking because I wonder if your boss supervises other

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Speaker 1: people as well, and whether she has this kind of

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Speaker 1: relationship with the other people that she manages.

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Speaker 3: So she manages two other full time people, and she

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Speaker 3: manages the smaller team of college kids that I used

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Speaker 3: to be back when I was in that position, And

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Speaker 3: I would say with a full time folks, she does

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Speaker 3: not do this, but she definitely does it with the

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Speaker 3: group of college kids.

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Speaker 4: So the full time people. No, I don't think she

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Speaker 4: acts the same way.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever feel like there was some kind of

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Speaker 1: romantic element to this.

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Speaker 3: She's actually married, and that's not something I've ever felt

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Speaker 3: in nor did I ever feel in this situation where

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Speaker 3: that was ever a thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're kind of like her wark husband. What I

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Speaker 1: meant by work husband, is that you are meeting her

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Speaker 1: emotional needs. So I don't know when she goes home

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Speaker 1: and it's eleven o'clock at night, why she isn't telling

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Speaker 1: her husband the gossip and talking about TV shows and

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Speaker 1: things like that with him. But you've sort of become

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Speaker 1: the person that she's using for some kind of emotional gratification.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing to be friends with people

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Speaker 1: at work. It's another when you go home at eleven

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Speaker 1: o'clock at night and you're married and you're texting your

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Speaker 1: younger male coworker. Did that ever strike you as unusual

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Speaker 1: in that respect?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I've probably had the thought.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I always joke around that I'm like

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Speaker 3: such a sheltered, innocent person that like I just didn't think,

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Speaker 3: or maybe didn't want to think, that that was something

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Speaker 3: that was going on. I mean, now I step back

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Speaker 3: and I think to myself, oh, God, like this is

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Speaker 3: kind of a really bad situation.

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Speaker 2: One of the greatest gifts a manager can have is

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Speaker 2: an employee who's really conscientious, which you sound. You sound

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Speaker 2: conscientious because when there's a gamp, you rise to fimit.

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Speaker 2: So you said, she has a chronic illness, she's absent

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Speaker 2: a lot, and then you, independently, spontaneous, will fill those gaps,

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Speaker 2: will do part of her job for her. You get

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Speaker 2: the responsibility, but you don't get the actual credit for it.

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Speaker 2: You don't get the recognition. And that's another way in

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Speaker 2: which you really provide significant service to her is to

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Speaker 2: be there as a safety net, and she sounds like

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Speaker 2: she needs safety nets quite frequently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because there was a

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Speaker 3: period of time where, you know, a promotion went through

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Speaker 3: for her and I felt frustrated with myself because I said,

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Speaker 3: you know, I really feel like, you know, she was

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Speaker 3: getting so much credit for a lot of the things

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Speaker 3: that I did. I carried a lot of mental load

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Speaker 3: that just was not mine. Yeah, that was an interesting

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Speaker 3: learning experience for me because it really felt awful.

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Speaker 2: Now that you've had that learning experience, what would you

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Speaker 2: do differently next time?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think what I did right after it was

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Speaker 3: I immediately took a look at what I was doing

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Speaker 3: and what I was offering and the kind of imbalance

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Speaker 3: that it existed there, and I really have pulled back

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Speaker 3: and I just don't do any of the things that

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Speaker 3: I was doing, because there's been situations, unfortunately, where people

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Speaker 3: have taken time off and then there's not coverage. And

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Speaker 3: so some of my colleagues have been in a position

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Speaker 3: where they're covering a service desk for the entirety of

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Speaker 3: their day for eight hours, and she's not there. It's

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Speaker 3: a day that I'm off, and so people have no

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Speaker 3: lunch break or no water breaks or bathroom breaks, and

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Speaker 3: I mean that's just really unacceptable to me. So what

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Speaker 3: I've done is I've really pulled back and I don't

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Speaker 3: keep on top of all those things, and I just

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Speaker 3: hope that my colleagues will reach out if they need

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Speaker 3: the support.

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Speaker 1: So what has happened in your relationship with her? Since

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Speaker 1: you've decided that you're not going to do the things

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Speaker 1: that she should be doing as a manager.

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Speaker 4: I have felt so much better from my perspective.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it was kind of like feeling this physical

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Speaker 3: load lifted off of me. Honestly, when I stopped filling

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Speaker 3: my mental space with responsibilities, I think that were hers.

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Speaker 3: What has happened too with the text thing, especially since

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Speaker 3: the pandemic, we started working from home and I just

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Speaker 3: don't respond to them if it's not specifically asking me

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Speaker 3: a question that's pertinent to my job. I don't respond

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Speaker 3: to it. But what's been really difficult for me is

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Speaker 3: I know another text message is coming, you know, in

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Speaker 3: a day or two, and it might be the same

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Speaker 3: kind of thing. I think, like two days from now,

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Speaker 3: if she's bored or something, I expect another you know,

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Speaker 3: message maybe to come through.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like you've made some significant changes, right

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Speaker 2: You're not responding to text, you're not picking up the

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Speaker 2: slack when she creates it. So you've done quite a

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Speaker 2: bit to kind of step back so that at least

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Speaker 2: you're not as resentful for doing so much or not

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Speaker 2: getting recognized in her getting the credit, other than the

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Speaker 2: fact that those things still happen and you have to

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Speaker 2: continue to ignore them or manage them. What are the

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Speaker 2: biggest pain points right now with her? Given that you've

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Speaker 2: done some stepping back.

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Speaker 4: What's the most difficult for me right now is sitting

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Speaker 4: with the fact that I might have two or three

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Speaker 4: days where you know, she might not bother me.

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Speaker 3: Now I have to ignore or not respond to or

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Speaker 3: see a name, and just the name is just so

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Speaker 3: frustrating me because I'm burnt out just from like, why

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Speaker 3: are you asking me about when is this class? When

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Speaker 3: you know the answer, you can find the answer, Or

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Speaker 3: why are you sending me this link that is something

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Speaker 3: that you're interested in and I'm not really interested in

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Speaker 3: then you're really trying to badger me to read it

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Speaker 3: to have a conversation about it.

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Speaker 4: Just really frustrates me.

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Speaker 1: Are other people at work aware of this relationship that

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Speaker 1: you have with Sharon? I'm curious to know if you

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Speaker 1: have any other relationships at work that are actually nourishing

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Speaker 1: to you, or relationships that you enjoy with other people

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Speaker 1: at work, and can you tell us about what those

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Speaker 1: are like.

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Speaker 3: It's a good question because most of the people there

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Speaker 3: we are very different generations. I don't really have anyone

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Speaker 3: who I consider similar to me in any way. I

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Speaker 3: don't really think there's anybody who who i'd be really

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Speaker 3: close with.

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Speaker 1: I'm asking only because I think that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people forget that so much of our lives is spent

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Speaker 1: at work, and so I think there is this question

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people of well, I want to

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Speaker 1: enjoy the work that I'm doing, so primarily the work

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Speaker 1: needs to be fulfilling, it needs to pay my bills,

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Speaker 1: and once those two things are checked off, there's also

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Speaker 1: this element of I spend so much time here, I

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Speaker 1: want to enjoy the people that I'm working with. Or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's the people who come into the library that

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Speaker 1: you really enjoy working with.

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Speaker 3: I think it's the people who come in the most,

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Speaker 3: especially students. I love working with them. It takes you

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Speaker 3: fifteen seconds to help them. These people are so thrilled

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Speaker 3: about it. I mean, I get a lot of joy

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Speaker 3: from that, a lot. I love that, I love teaching

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Speaker 3: and I love working with students a lot.

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Speaker 2: So I want to point out to you, Paul, that

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Speaker 2: I think part of the problem, the double edged sword

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Speaker 2: of conscientiousness, is it takes a lot of effort to

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Speaker 2: not do the thing that your insights are telling you,

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Speaker 2: but I should do that. That's the right thing to do,

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Speaker 2: that's the good citizen thing to do. So I think

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Speaker 2: that there's still a lot of emotional labor we call it,

401
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Speaker 2: that you're putting in to resist your natural impulse to help,

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Speaker 2: to assist, to be there to make sure the mission

403
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Speaker 2: is on track. And I think that's part of why

404
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 2: you're exhausted, and that's why you're feeling burnt out despite

405
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Speaker 2: the significant steps back that you've already taken.

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Speaker 3: I think you're absolutely right when I see there's an

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Speaker 3: issue or I see there's an opportunity, it's physically like

408
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Speaker 3: chaining myself down to say, yes, you can do it,

409
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Speaker 3: but you know what, don't because you're going to get

410
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Speaker 3: to this point where you're just going to be resentful

411
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Speaker 3: or burnt out or angry later, So you can't. It's

412
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Speaker 3: like this crazy back and forth in your mind of

413
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Speaker 3: trying to find this happy medium, this balance. It's a

414
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Speaker 3: very second guessing kind of mindset where I feel like

415
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Speaker 3: I'm in, you know where I think to myself, can

416
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Speaker 3: I do this? And should I do this?

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Speaker 4: And is it okay to say you can only email

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Speaker 4: me here or there.

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Speaker 1: When you got that evaluation from your boss that you

420
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Speaker 1: were having trouble dealing with others, what did you do

421
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Speaker 1: when you got that?

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Speaker 3: My thought process was I don't want to react because

423
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Speaker 3: I thought in a way, if I reacted, then it

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Speaker 3: kind of validated why she did that. So I just thought, Okay,

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Speaker 3: go ahead, and it really doesn't affect me in any way.

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Speaker 3: I don't really agree with it, but you know.

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Speaker 4: What are you going to do?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: I guess the thing is sometimes you might want feedback

430
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Speaker 1: on that you might be curious about. Well, I'd like

431
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Speaker 1: to learn and grow from this, because I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you really know what her perspective is. So to you,

433
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Speaker 1: a lot of this feels very inappropriate, and from us

434
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Speaker 1: hearing it on the outside, we can understand why it

435
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Speaker 1: makes you feel uncomfortable. But you might have gotten more

436
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Speaker 1: insight if you were to say to her, hey, I'm

437
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Speaker 1: really curious about this. I want to understand more about

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Speaker 1: it so that I can do better and hear what

439
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Speaker 1: her perspective is, and that might have opened up a

440
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 1: conversation too, about boundaries and expectations. There hasn't really been

441
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 1: a let's sit down and let's have a conversation about

442
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,360
Speaker 1: what's going on for each of us, which you can

443
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 1: do and should do by the way, in a workplace environment.

444
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 1: So people think, well, we're not allowed to talk about

445
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 1: that kind of thing because it's work. But work is

446
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 1: all about relationships.

447
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: Too, especially at review time, because that's when the door

448
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 2: is open to it.

449
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 3: Laurie, I think you're absolutely right. It would be helpful

450
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 3: and really interesting to hear her perspective. I think the

451
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 3: error in my judgment, maybe is as I'm thinking, I

452
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 3: can already tell what you're going to say, so I

453
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,919
Speaker 3: don't want to have this conversation with you because you're

454
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 3: probably going to point out things that I don't agree with.

455
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 3: You know, but obviously that gets us nowhere.

456
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 2: If you took Lorie's suggestion, If you had taken it

457
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: and said, oh, that's an interesting comment, I'd like to

458
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 2: hear a little bit more about how you see that.

459
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 2: Where you see that? What is it you think she

460
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 2: would say?

461
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 3: I think that because of how uncomfortable I feel. Maybe

462
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 3: you know, I I come across abrasive or I just

463
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 3: don't really want to have the conversation. I think maybe

464
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,439
Speaker 3: she'll pick up on that and then say, well, this

465
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 3: is why I think you don't get along with other people,

466
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,880
Speaker 3: because when I try to have the conversation or point

467
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 3: something out to you, you aren't really engaged in the conversation.

468
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 2: Well, let's say she did say that, like, look, I'm

469
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 2: just trying to give you the heads up so I

470
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 2: don't have to troubly at work with it and you

471
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: Peter Poyten says that I promise you'll check emails every morning,

472
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 2: and I really prefer to have some separation between work

473
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 2: and home life. So I'd like to kind of keep

474
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: the door closed once I leave the office. What's wrong

475
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: with that? Like, why wouldn't that be a fair conversation

476
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 2: to have.

477
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: I think it'd be a fair conversation to have. I

478
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 3: think I just don't know if she would respect it.

479
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 3: Just really don't want to have a conversation with someone

480
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 3: who who's not going to respect what I'm saying.

481
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 2: There's the two parts to limit setting. Is the moment

482
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: where you explain the limit, but the real limit setting

483
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 2: comes in the maintenance of the limit. It's very rarely

484
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,959
Speaker 2: sufficient to do it just once and then the person

485
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: hops too when you're good. If you need to set

486
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: limit in the first place, it means the person is

487
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 2: probably likely to violate it. Then they'll do so again,

488
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: and then you just have to do it as a

489
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 2: reminder each time. Oh, just to remind you. I really

490
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: would rather have this as an email, thanks so much.

491
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: I think that what happens to you is you get

492
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 2: thrown into this helplessnes that maybe got developed when you

493
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,719
Speaker 2: were a child, when you were younger, and it just

494
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 2: makes you feel a little paralyzed and hopeless that you'll

495
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 2: be able to do anything about it. So you do

496
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: the first step kind of, but then you don't do

497
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: the follow up because you're worried that it won't be sufficient.

498
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: But what you really need practice doing is being able

499
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: to verbalize the limit and then maintain it in the

500
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 2: most polite and respectful way possible, instead of going into

501
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: this hopelessness and paralysis of like, well, I'm screwed. There's

502
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: really nothing I can do that'll get her to stop.

503
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 2: You you haven't really overtly made her stop yet.

504
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely think it's something I could work on.

505
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 3: I've sort of done this before, it hasn't really gone

506
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 3: the way I want, and I just don't want to

507
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 3: keep going into the situation and get that response every time.

508
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, but when you say I don't get the response

509
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: I want, it means she keeps doing it. That is normal.

510
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 2: That is part of the process of limit setting. And

511
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: I think you see it as a failure or as

512
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 2: it didn't work. When that's part of the process, you'll

513
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: keep doing it and you'll keep calling her on it

514
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 2: until she stops. But if you keep experience seeing each

515
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: incident as oh, that didn't look then you're completely demotivated

516
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 2: to maintain the limit and then it keeps getting violated.

517
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 3: I'm glad you pointed that out, because I think you're

518
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 3: right that I sort of looked at it as you know,

519
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 3: I did it this one time, and I have this

520
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 3: like fantasy in my head that it takes one time

521
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 3: of you being what seems clear to me, But I imagine

522
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 3: the more consistent you are over time, eventually you know correct.

523
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: And if you are consistent over time and nothing changes,

524
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: that's information too. So either way it's a win win

525
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: because you will either make your work situation more pleasant

526
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: or it won't become more pleasant, but it gives you

527
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: information and then you can say, Okay, so what do

528
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: I want to do, knowing that it's not going to change.

529
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: You mentioned in your letter that you have some history

530
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: in your family with feeling like you couldn't set boundaries,

531
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: and you called it codependency. Can you tell us a

532
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: little bit more about that and what feels similar to

533
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: you about this situation.

534
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 3: When I think about codependency, I think about my dad,

535
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 3: who was very inconsistent kind of person, angry, aggressive, punch

536
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: a hole through my door, knock all my things off

537
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: of my shelf that meant a lot to me kind

538
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 3: of person, and it got to the point where I

539
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: would listen to his footsteps coming through our house and

540
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 3: I'd be able to tell if he was going to

541
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 3: be an okay mood, a bad mood, like a you

542
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: can't talk to him at all mood.

543
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 4: Kind of thing.

544
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 3: Basically, I trained myself to be so in tune with

545
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 3: what he needed or how you can communicate with him

546
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: or how you couldn't. And that's taking me a long

547
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: time to process and understand. And I find connections between

548
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 3: some of the behaviors of sharing in some of the

549
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 3: situations that make me feel the same way Sharon, for example,

550
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 3: I kind of went back into that situation where you know,

551
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 3: just by her walking in, I'd be able to tell

552
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: by the look on her face if she was going

553
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 3: to be crouchy all day. So I think generally it's

554
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 3: just this predisposition to being so into and in tuned

555
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 3: with people and then modifying my behavior to make sure

556
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: that I'm not making them angry and anything. That also

557
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: goes along with why I have so much difficulty with

558
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 3: like the second guessing kind of thing, where if I

559
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: do set a boundary I think to myself.

560
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 4: Am I being mean? Is this you know? Am I

561
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 4: presenting it in the wrong way?

562
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 1: Is it reasonable?

563
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 4: Yeah?

564
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: Exactly, And so I think to myself when I'm communicating

565
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 3: this boundary, am I being rude? Am I being abrasive?

566
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 3: And I recognize this is a separate situation. So it

567
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 3: frustrates me because I recognize what I experienced, this is

568
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: not the same person being at my job, completely different environment,

569
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 3: but it hits a nerve in me that makes it

570
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: very difficult, I think.

571
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 4: And this goes along with what we were talking about before.

572
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: I think with like this helplessness of any time I

573
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: did try to say something, it never ended well. There's

574
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: always getting screamed out and invalidated and just was a

575
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: really negative, bad environment.

576
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 4: So I think it's really challenging for me.

577
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of a time when

578
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: you tried to say something in your childhood and it

579
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: didn't go well?

580
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 4: Yeah?

581
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: So I remember one time my brother has special needs

582
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: and who's my best friend, So he had a lot

583
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 3: of issues growing up with being able to use the bathroom,

584
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 3: like just learning how to toilet train and all that

585
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: kind of thing. And I remember one night I was

586
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: sitting at my kitchen table and he had an accident.

587
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: And my father was livid, just so angry, you know,

588
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 3: because it would be anywhere and you might have to

589
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 3: clean a couch or a chair or whatever where this

590
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 3: would happen. And I was just so upset because I

591
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: said to myself, this person, you know, my brother did

592
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: not intentionally choose to do this, and you're a parent,

593
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 3: and it's going to take a second for us to

594
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 3: clean it, and heck, I'll clean it.

595
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 4: It's not that big of a deal. And you know,

596
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 4: he just.

597
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: Kind of went into the bathroom where my brother was

598
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 3: and just was brating it, was yelling at him for

599
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 3: having an accident, and I was just really irate, and

600
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 3: I said to when my father walked out of the

601
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 3: bathrooms near me, I said, you know, he can't control this,

602
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: and it's just why would you ever scream at a

603
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 3: person like this is outrageous. I can't believe this. And

604
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 3: he just basically screamed at me and told me that

605
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 3: I wasn't a parent, who am I to tell him

606
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 3: what to do, and then called me mister college educated

607
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: as a pejorative, because I mean, he dropped out of

608
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: high school and I think he was always really threatened

609
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 3: and intimidated while I was living at home going to school,

610
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 3: and so that just moment kind of sticks.

611
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 4: In my head.

612
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 1: It sounds like there's another parallel too, which is that

613
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: sometimes you are doing Sharon's job for her, and here

614
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: you were trying to do the job of a parent

615
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: for your father. I'll clean it up, I'll take care

616
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: of it. Here's how you should really handle this, because

617
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: the person who was supposed to be the manager was

618
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: not doing his job.

619
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 4: So that sounds very familiar to Yeah. I mean that's

620
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 4: why I think it's so hard. And I see there

621
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 4: is that parallel.

622
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: What about your mom? Were you ever able to talk

623
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: to your mom in a different way than you could

624
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: talk to your dad?

625
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 4: Yeah?

626
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: So I feel really fortunate to have her in my

627
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: life because she is number one support kind of deal,

628
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: you know, no matter what, always started to listen to me,

629
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: always supportive of what I'm doing, helped me study in college,

630
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 3: not able to pronounce any of the words when I

631
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: was trying to, you know, study for exams and all

632
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 3: this stuff. And she still, you know, tried her best

633
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: and did everything and always listen. I mean, unfortunately, I

634
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 3: think she was also a victim of my father as well.

635
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: So they're divorced. They've been divorced since twenty sixteen, and

636
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: a lot of what, at least in conversation with my

637
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: mom and I that we've had is a lot of

638
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 3: just kind of talking about what happened in our house

639
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 3: and talking about our perspective. So it's been really cathartic.

640
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: Well, when you were waiting outside the bathroom for your

641
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: dad to come out and then you give him this

642
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: assertive Hey, what are you doing? What did that feel like?

643
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: Do you remember what you felt like when he was

644
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: saying that to him.

645
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 4: I think in the moment, I needed to say something,

646
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 4: and it felt good saying it, but then afterward was like, oh,

647
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 4: this isn't good. I mean, he was livid.

648
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: I mean he just started screaming at me, basically shut up,

649
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: like what are you talking about? I'm a parent, You've

650
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: never been a parent, you don't know what you're talking about,

651
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: and so just completely shut down anything that I have

652
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 3: to say. And then I just kind of thought in

653
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 3: my head, you know, like, well, this is why I

654
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: don't normally say things.

655
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: To you, Paul. I think part of the problem you

656
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: have is that you measure your success by whether you

657
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: get the person to do what you want them to

658
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: do or to accept what you have to say. And

659
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: the way we look at success is that the best

660
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: you can do is your part. And as long as

661
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: you're speaking up, as long as you're saying what you

662
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: need to say, as long as you're speaking your truth,

663
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: then that's what assertiveness is about. That's what empowerment is about.

664
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: That you can speak up. But if you do speak

665
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: up but you don't get the result you want, you

666
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: actually miss out on that feeling of empowerment because the

667
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: other person didn't say or react the way you wanted

668
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: them to. And that's a bit of a miss for you.

669
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: I don't think you give yourself enough credit when you

670
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: do it, and I think it goes down in your

671
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 2: head as a fail because, well, your dad yelled at you,

672
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: but that was a really important moment in your life

673
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: that you remember clearly. I'm sure your brother does as well,

674
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: and yet it doesn't quite get catalogued as that's me

675
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: speaking up and really risk getting screened at which indeed happened.

676
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: But good for me because I stood up for my brother.

677
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: Anyway, if you had not stood up for him in

678
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: that moment, I think you would have remembered that moment

679
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: very differently, even though you didn't get the result that

680
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: you wanted. That was the example of all the many

681
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: examples that you can probably give us, that was the

682
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 1: one that first came to mind that this happened with

683
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: my brother. It was so unfair, and I spoke up

684
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: because I believe something different. And so even though you

685
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: didn't get that result, it sounds like it was an

686
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: important moment for you anyway.

687
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, thinking about it now, if I had

688
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: it, it would have been so disappointing to me.

689
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 4: And it's funny because this is all coming together now,

690
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 4: you know.

691
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 3: I think in that moment if I if I didn't

692
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 3: do that, I mean, I probably would have thought about

693
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: it for the rest of my life. Of like that

694
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 3: one time that I just watched my brother get berated

695
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 3: just completely inappropriately and for no reason at all, and

696
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: that I just sat and watched it, even though I

697
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 3: knew this was so wrong and I had to say

698
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: something about it, and so I'm really glad that I did.

699
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 3: And you know, just speaking to what guy was just

700
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 3: saying too one hundred percent.

701
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: I mean, I agree with you guys, because I.

702
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 3: Think for me, my default is always I'm not going

703
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: to get the response I want out of them. So

704
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: instead of sticking up for myself or saying something, I

705
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: just internalized being angry or frustrated or annoyed with them,

706
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 3: because it's just well, why bother?

707
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: When you've done this with friends or romantic relationships, has

708
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: it gone better than it went with your father?

709
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 4: Sticking up for myself?

710
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: You mean, yeah, or just share you call it sticking

711
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: up for yourself. I would say, you know, telling them

712
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: how you feel about something that's going on in the relationship.

713
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

714
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 3: I can think of a situation really a close family

715
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: friend where it was another one of those situations where

716
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 3: there were things that they were doing for the longest time,

717
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: and I eventually had a conversation where you know, it

718
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: was like pent up frustration for months, and you just

719
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: told them exactly how I felt, and you know, they

720
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: were like mortified. Had no idea, of course, because how

721
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: are they supposed to know that this is how I'm feeling.

722
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: And when you wait a really long time when you

723
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: talk about this pent up frustration, probably took you a

724
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: long time to say to your dad, this is not Okay,

725
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: that probably happened so many times before you actually said that,

726
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: And the same thing with this friend that you mentioned,

727
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: and so part of it is recognizing something and being

728
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: able to speak about it as you notice it happening,

729
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: as opposed to waiting months or years to bring something up,

730
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: because it's much harder than because people get into these patterns.

731
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: It's kind of like with your boss, she had already

732
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: gotten into this groove with you, and first you weren't

733
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: really sure how you felt about it. But once you

734
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: were more clear about how you felt about it, it

735
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: still took you a while to say to her, hey,

736
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: wait a minute, and it's so comfortable with this. And

737
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: then it's harder because people are already doing something that

738
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: they've been doing for a while, and they're confused. You

739
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: never told me this bothered you before. It was working

740
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: fine before, but it actually wasn't working fine before exactly.

741
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: So let me tell you something about how therapists score

742
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 2: these kinds of situations. We a lot to point based

743
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: on the effort you put in to try and speak

744
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: your truth. We accommodate no points to how that other

745
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 2: person reacted because it's not relevant what's relevant for you

746
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: is whether you can see yourself through the discomfort and

747
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: speak up about the relationship, whether it's an intimate one,

748
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: a familiar one, a work one. Laurie and I are

749
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: always impressed when our patients are able to do that

750
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: because it's so difficult.

751
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm so ready to try something different.

752
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 3: It's funny in this moment because I feel like I

753
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: don't know. Just the thought of it makes me kind

754
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 3: of excited.

755
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: And it also translates into other areas of your life.

756
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: So every time you have one of these conversations, it's

757
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: not just that conversation, but it also will help you

758
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: to have those conversations with other people. The more practice

759
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: you get, the easier it's going to become. So we

760
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: do have some advice for you, and not surprisingly, what

761
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: we'd like you to do is to have a conversation

762
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,959
Speaker 1: with Sharon, and we would like you to go back

763
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: to her and say, I've been thinking about the performance

764
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: evaluation and I should have come to you earlier because

765
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: I've been really curious about that one comment and I

766
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: really value my work here, I really value our working relationship,

767
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: and I want to understand more about that. Can you

768
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: tell me what it is that motivated that remark and

769
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: see what she says, and when she's saying this, you

770
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: might have the tendency to regress a little bit, to

771
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: go back to that young child and then teenager who

772
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: really had trouble being seen and heard. And we want

773
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: you to comment this from I'm an adult, and when

774
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: she says these things to me, it might be difficult,

775
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: it might be frustrating, but I'm an adult now and

776
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: I have choices. I didn't have that, and so she

777
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: will probably justify her behavior in certain ways. There might

778
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: also be some points where you say, oh, I hadn't

779
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 1: seen you know, to yourself, I hadn't seen it that way.

780
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: That's interesting, that's a learning experience for me. So we

781
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: want you to take in that, but we also want

782
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: you to be able to tolerate the places where you

783
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: have different interpretations of things than she did, or you

784
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: have different feelings around what's appropriate and what's not appropriate.

785
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: And then you hear what she has to say, you

786
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: thank her for sharing that with you, and you can

787
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: also say it's interesting that you see it this way.

788
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: I want to let you know that here's how I

789
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: see X.

790
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: Y or Z, and I think you can say to her,

791
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: you know, when I was working as an undergraduate, things

792
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 2: were quite different because it was just a job as

793
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: an undergraduate. And as you know, this is now my

794
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: career path and it's something I take very seriously. So

795
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 2: I know we used to text each other after work

796
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: and chat about all kinds of things, and that was

797
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: fine for me then, but right now, because I take

798
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 2: work really seriously, I really need that recovery and rejuvenation

799
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: after work, and so I really need that separation. And

800
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: that's why I haven't been responding much to texts. And

801
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: I'd really like to ask if it's possible that we

802
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: don't text each other after work, barring real work emergencies,

803
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: so that I have that separation. And then after you

804
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: have that conversation time she texts you after work, you

805
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: don't ignore it. You right back and you go, Sharon,

806
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: just to remind you, I really prefer to keep things

807
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: separate so I can really recover and rest. So I'll

808
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: see you tomorrow week and talk. Then you're gonna just

809
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 2: remind her nicely, gently, respectfully each time until she stops,

810
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: and she will stop if you're consistent.

811
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about it, especially just because hearing you

812
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 3: guys speak about it, it gives me some.

813
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 4: Ideas on what to say.

814
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 3: I think sometimes that can be difficult too, and like,

815
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 3: how do you say this in a way that's respectful

816
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 3: of yourself and of the other person.

817
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 4: So I'm definitely excited to try it.

818
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: This is one of those things where it was about work,

819
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: but it's also about what we bring ourselves into the workplace.

820
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: And I'm not just talking about what Paul brings in,

821
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: but what each of us brings in to any situation.

822
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: Things do come out in the workplace. I think that

823
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 1: Sharon has her own history that she's bringing to this,

824
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: and maybe she's not that able to respect people's boundaries.

825
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: Relationships or relationships. And the way we tend to relate

826
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: to other people, whether it's at work or with family,

827
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: or with friends or with loved ones, tends to repeat

828
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: We have our same stick, and we tend to repeat it.

829
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 2: We bring the same business to work and to wherever

830
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: we go. And so it's really useful for him to

831
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: address this at work because it will help him address

832
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: it really everywhere else. You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio.

833
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: We'll be back after a quick break.

834
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: So, Guy, we heard back from Paul, and I'm curious

835
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: to hear what happened because I think that talking to

836
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: your boss can be nerve wracking in a way that's

837
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: different from, say, talking to your family talking to a friend.

838
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: So let's hear what happened.

839
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 4: Hey, Laurie and Guy, it's Paul.

840
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: So I spoke with my boss, Sharon, and we had

841
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 3: a conversation about my last performance evaluation in texting when

842
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 3: I'm not at work. Leading up to the conversation, I

843
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: was a little anxious because I wasn't sure how she

844
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 3: was going to react, and I felt a little awkward

845
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 3: about vocalizing my perspective and the limit I want to

846
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 3: set on texting after work. But I reminded myself that

847
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 3: the conversation was a great opportunity to express myself. When

848
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: I asked about what motivated her decision to rank me

849
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: lowest and ability to deal with others, she gave examples

850
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: of other colleagues in my department and the ways that

851
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 3: they had trouble dealing with others. When I followed up

852
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: asking if her rating was motivated by my interactions just

853
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: with her or with my colleagues and the students I

854
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 3: work with. She said that there was one time she

855
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 3: noticed that it looked like I was struggling and she

856
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 3: wasn't sure if I was okay, and that's why she

857
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 3: chose that rating. Those answers weren't particularly helpful to me,

858
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: But instead of focusing on that, I steered the conversation

859
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: toward me sharing my perspective. I told her that because

860
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 3: I work full time now and put a ton of

861
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 3: energy and effort into my work, I really need to

862
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 3: have separation between my work life and personal life, and

863
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 3: it's not worth it to me to have conversations about

864
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: work and life if they're not constructive and negative to that,

865
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 3: she mentioned that life is really stressful right now and

866
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 3: gave an example of how she was writing for fun

867
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: to alleviate her own stress and suggested that I do

868
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 3: the same. So overall, Sharon seemed to deflect the questions

869
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: I asked, and her reasoning for the evaluation didn't really

870
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 3: make much sense to me, but I felt that behind

871
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 3: what she was saying, she knew why I was having

872
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 3: the conversation with her and what I was asking her,

873
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: even though it was difficult for her to acknowledge. It

874
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: also turned out that The anticipation of what the conversation

875
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 3: might look like was way more anxiety inducing than the

876
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: actual conversation itself. Time will tell if Sharon falls through

877
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 3: with not texting me after work, but if she does,

878
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 3: I really feel confident reminding her that after work is

879
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 3: my time to de stress and to relax. I think

880
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 3: the greatest gift I got from talking to you both

881
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: was in getting help changing my mindset from if this

882
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 3: person doesn't acknowledge my point of view, it was a

883
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: pointless conversation to have, so I just won't bother trying

884
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: again to how anyone responds to me is about them,

885
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: not me, and I get a positive point on my

886
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 3: rubric for having the conversation, regardless that, in focusing on

887
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 3: the choices I have, I can choose how to set

888
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 3: and maintain limits and boundaries. I can choose how to

889
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: react to someone's response to my boundaries, and I can

890
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 3: choose what kind of conversations I have and how often.

891
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 3: And knowing all of that makes the conversation I had

892
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 3: with Sharon a win for me.

893
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: What impressed me there was not just that he actually

894
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 2: had the conversation, but he actually asked follow up questions

895
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: and he was proud of himself for having the conversation,

896
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: which was the point all along. So that made me

897
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: feel good about his prospects going forward and being able

898
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: to set limits with her.

899
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, he did ask follow up questions. I think that

900
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: it's tricky in a workplace situation because if this had

901
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: been maybe a friendship or a family relationship, I I

902
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: would hope that he would ask more pointed follow up

903
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: questions so that when she did deflect, that he would

904
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: bring her back into the conversation. Because she really didn't

905
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: address anything that he brought up. He didn't really get

906
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: a clear answer that you would get from your employer

907
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: about here's an example of when I saw you have

908
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: difficulty dealing with a colleague or dealing with me, that

909
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: would have been the answer. It doesn't sound like she

910
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: is really capable of providing that kind of feedback, right.

911
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 2: I also think that she's maybe one of those people

912
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: sharing his boss that maybe she will enact it in

913
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: future behavior, but she's not going to give him the

914
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 2: win in the moment.

915
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I thought. That she understood what he

916
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: was trying to say, and hopefully she'll take it to heart.

917
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,439
Speaker 1: I think people don't like when someone wants to change

918
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: something that you want to do, and she sounds like

919
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: one of those people who maybe will try to slip

920
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: in a text here and there. But I think that

921
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 1: it created a new dynamic between them where makes him

922
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: seem like the more mature person in the dynamic. Absolutely

923
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: it does, and so I think that that's why he

924
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: felt like there was a win at the end, where

925
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: he feels like, first of all, not only might it

926
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: change what happens between him and Sharon, but I think

927
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: that it allows him to do this in other relationships

928
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: as well. And that's the important thing. That he isn't

929
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 1: the kid who really couldn't stand up to his father anymore.

930
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: That he is now an adult and he does have

931
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: all these choices and he feels very empowered by them.

932
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: And what we should all remember is that it is

933
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: always scarier before you have the conversation than it is

934
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 2: when you have the conversation, so you should have it. Nonetheless,

935
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: next week, a woman comes to us for help connecting

936
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 2: with her husband, her children, and her own emotions.

937
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 4: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of

938
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 4: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time

939
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 4: saying I love you back.

940
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: Hey fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

941
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

942
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

943
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

944
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

945
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

946
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 2: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

947
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

948
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

949
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

950
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.

951
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

952
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.