1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: I'm Jesse Hemple, host of Hello Monday. In my twenties, 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: I knew what I wanted for my career, But from 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: where I am now, in the middle of my life, 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: nothing feels ascertain. Works changing, We're changing, and there's no 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: guidebook for how to make sense of any of it. 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: So every Monday, I bring you conversations with people who 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: are thinking deeply about work and where it fits into 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: our lives. We talk about making career pivots, about purpose 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: and how to discern it, about where happiness fits into 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: the mix, and how to ask for more money. Come 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: join us in the Hello Monday community. Let's figure out 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: the future together. Listen to Hello Monday with Jesse Hemple 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: Welcome back to sheep Pivots. I'm Cindy Gallop. 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: Welcome to she Pivots, the podcast where we talk with 16 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 3: women who dared to pivot out of one career and 17 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 3: into something new and explore how their personal lives impacted 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 3: these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. Welcome back 19 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 3: to she Pivots. I'm your host Emily Tish Sussman. Today 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,839 Speaker 3: we've got a guest who calls herself the Michael Bay 21 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: of business, so basically, she likes to blow shit up. 22 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 3: I'm so excited to share my conversation with the remarkable 23 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 3: Cindy Gallup. Cindy started her career in the eighties and 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 3: climbed her way to the top of the advertising world, 25 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 3: snagging the Advertising Woman of the Year title in two 26 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 3: thousand and three. Then, on her forty fifth birthday, she 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 3: had what she describes as her personal midlife crisis. Never 28 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 3: thinking she'd be an advertising her whole life, she took 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 3: a leap of faith, leaving behind the agency she'd been 30 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 3: with for over fifteen years and not fully knowing her 31 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: next steps. A staunch feminist, Cindy has changed how we 32 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 3: as a society think and talk about sex through her 33 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 3: ted talk Make Love Not Porn, where she launched her 34 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: company of the same name, centered around the idea of 35 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 3: sex positivity and celebrating quote real world sex, Cindy is 36 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 3: tackling the stigmatization of sex and hoping to promote sex 37 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 3: education through real world demonstration. Throughout her life, Cindy has 38 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 3: continued to push and question the boundaries set by society 39 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 3: and as a result, has curated a life truly her own. 40 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 3: She says, if Sheryl Sandberg wants us to lean in 41 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 3: within the existing system, she wants to redesign the system. 42 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: And there's no question she is doing just that. Let's 43 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 3: dive right in. 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: So I'm Cyndi Up. I'm the founder and CEO of 45 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 2: Make Love nor Poom. We all pro sex pro pawn 46 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: pro knowing the difference. 47 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 3: So you were born in the UK. We're going all 48 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: the way back. We're going all the way back, right, 49 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 3: But you grew up in Brunei, that's right? 50 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: Yes, how long were you there for? 51 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: What was that move? What was that community? 52 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: Like? 53 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 2: So my father was English, my mother is Malaysia and Chinese, 54 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: and my father's passed away. My mother is ninety living 55 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: in London. But basically I was born in the UK, 56 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: as you say. But when I was six, my father 57 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: got a job in Brunei, and you know, he met 58 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: my mother in Singapore and my father just absolutely loved 59 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: Asia and very much wanted to move back there and 60 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: live and work. And equally, obviously, you know, that was 61 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: where my mother has family, so she was very happy 62 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: to go back there as well. And so my father 63 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: got a job as an assistant head master of a 64 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: school in Brunei and we moved there in nineteen sixty six. 65 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: Wow, So were you living as part of a British 66 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: community like English international English speaking community. 67 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: Not now case. No, because my father got a jobb 68 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 2: as head master at one of the local Brunei schools. 69 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: There certainly were expat communities, but they were focused around 70 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: the fact that there was a lot of oil in 71 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: Brunei still is, and so Shell and BP had very 72 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: significant expat communities there. The rest of the expats were 73 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: a bit ad hoc, and certainly in the places we 74 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: were living Qualabolite and then Tutoon, there were not many 75 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: other experts. 76 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: So what was that like to to adjust to acclimate, 77 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: to learn the language. 78 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: Well, I would say that growing up in Brunei is 79 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: a lot more boring than it sounds, because it's an 80 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: orthodox Muslim state. It's one hundred miles long. When we 81 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: were there, the population was two hundred thousand. I don't 82 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 2: know what it is these days. But my parents would 83 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: regularly apologize to me and my sisters for our childhood 84 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: because Brunei was distinctly lacking in more international cultural pursuits, 85 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: and so for English speakers that there was not a 86 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: lot going on. My father, you know, loved Malay culture. 87 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: You know, he would do regular walking tours into the 88 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: jungles of Borneo, you know, the center Borneo. But in 89 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: our case, honestly, you know, it was a wee bit tedious. 90 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 3: What ages were you there for? 91 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: So we moved there. I was six and when I 92 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: was fourteen, my parents sent me and my next sister, 93 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: Annabelle back to the UK to go to boarding school. 94 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: But because my father worked for the Brunei government, they 95 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: paid for us to go back to Brunei for vacations 96 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: twice a year until we turned twenty one or completed 97 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: full time education, you know, whichever came first, And so 98 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: we would go back twice a year on vacation from 99 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: university and then I guess it's indicative that, you know, 100 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: once the government paid for leave ran out, we never 101 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: went back. My parents understood it wasn't the most inflating 102 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: place in the world, so they were fine with that. 103 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: I just I think this background is so interesting because 104 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 3: you talk a lot about you know, we're going to 105 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: skip ahead later to the culture that we're in and 106 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: how people are raised and the ideologies around sex and intimacy, 107 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 3: and actually you had quite a different upbringing than the 108 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 3: US or even Western culture in general. So how do 109 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,559 Speaker 3: you think the Eastern Asian piece played into your thinking 110 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: around what is culture and what are cultural constructs? 111 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: I grew up very much in Asian culture, and so 112 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: first of all, it certainly gave me a global perspective 113 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: with everything I've done since, I absolutely believe in bringing 114 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: a global lens to anything that I'm working on or 115 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 2: you know, my own ventures. And I think it just 116 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: it absolutely broadens theal horizons and makes you think differently 117 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: about how different people respond to different things. 118 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 3: After moving back from Brunei, Cindy attended Somerville College at 119 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 3: Oxford University, one of the university's first women's colleges. It 120 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 3: was there that she found her first love, theater. 121 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: I fell mad in love with theater at Oxford, which 122 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: has a very thriving student drama scene, and I alreally 123 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: threw myself into that. I was present in my college 124 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: drama society. I wrote actor directed stage manage, and I went, 125 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: oh my god, all I want to do is work 126 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: in theater the rest of my life. But I knew 127 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: I wasn't good enough to be an actress or directors. 128 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: Many of my friends wanted to be professionally and I 129 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: used to draw a lot when I was younger, and 130 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: so my friends would pull me into a Sydney can 131 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: you design a theater poster for our show? And from 132 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: there I got sucked into, you know, helping to promote 133 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: and sell the shows. And I really enjoyed that, and 134 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: I thought, gosh, I suspect it's easier to find a 135 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: job in theater doing this than acting or directing. And 136 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: I was absolutely right, because I had no problem at 137 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: all finding jobs as a marketing and publicity office in theater. 138 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: So that's how I came to occupy that role. 139 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 3: Did you enjoy it? It sounds like you must have enjoyed it, 140 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: like why not stay in theater forever? 141 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: No, it was enormous fun to begin with, but then 142 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: you know, after a few years of working theater, I 143 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: got completely fed up with working twenty four to seven 144 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: and earning chicken feed, which is what happens in theater. 145 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: And just as I was starting to feel quite disillusioned, 146 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: I was the marketing office at the Everyman Theater in 147 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: Liverpool and part of my job promoting the theater was 148 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: to give talks about it. So I gave a talk 149 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: to a group of women in Liverpool and after the talk, 150 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: one of them came up to me and she said, 151 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: young lady, you could sell a fridge to an eskimol 152 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: And I thought, that is the universe telling me something. 153 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: Time to sell out going to advertising, and so I did. 154 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: With her mind made up, she made her first pivot, 155 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 3: but changing her career from theater had its challenges. 156 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 2: This was gosh the UK back in the eighties and 157 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: advertising was considered the sexiest profession going. Everybody leaving university 158 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: wanted to work. 159 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 3: In advertising, you know. 160 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: I mean it was the golden heyday of British advertising 161 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: and it was therefore extraordinary different to beginning too. And 162 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: so I tried, you know, applying for my theater job 163 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: and got stuck in that bind of no one would 164 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: give me a job in advertising because I didn't have 165 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: experienced advertising. But I couldn't experience in advertising and they want to 166 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 2: give me a job. So then I went back to the 167 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: beginning and I applied for entry level graduate trainee roles 168 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: and took the first one I was offered at an 169 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: agency called head Baits and actually that was a good 170 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: thing to do, because I've got no idea whether UK 171 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 2: ad agencies still do this, but back then they had 172 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 2: these very thorough training programs where you literally spent six 173 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: months working in every single department in the in the agency, 174 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: learning the entire advertising creation and production process end to end. 175 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 2: And that was a phenomenal grounding in the business. I mean, 176 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: advertising was not just sexy but sexist. You know. I 177 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: really asked this question about what sexism I encountered coming 178 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: up through the ranks advertising, and honestly, my response is 179 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: always a fish does not know wh water is. It 180 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: was all around me, but it was the norm and 181 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: I never noticed. Right, that totally makes sense. 182 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 3: I think you probably get that question in the US, 183 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: in particularly a lot because mad Men were so popular here. 184 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: Whenever I you know here mad Men mentioned, I have 185 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: to bring this up. So I was on the inaugural 186 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 2: board of Advertising Week in New York, which started, Gosh, 187 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: I guess that must have been twenty years ago or so, 188 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 2: in order to celebrate the industry make young people more 189 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: keen to come into it. And in our very first 190 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 2: board meeting twenty years ago, I said, and by the way, 191 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: I wish I had a video or audio of this, 192 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: but I literally I said to the gathering, which was 193 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: full of like luminous and advertising industry, I said, if 194 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: we want to elevate the states of the advertising industry, 195 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: you know, really excite people about it, make many more 196 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 2: young people want to come to our industry versus Wall 197 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: Street or Silicon Valley. Then what I think we should 198 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: do is, this was back in the day when the 199 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: Sopranos had just ended at HBO. I went, HBO is 200 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: bound to be casting around for the next big show. 201 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: We should have a competition. We should invite Because every copywriter, 202 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: every art director has like a student in their bottom drawer. 203 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: We should invite people the advertising industry to write a 204 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: really compelling series for HBO about our industry and get 205 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: HBO to agree that if they find a really brilliant concept, 206 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: they will absolute commission it and shoot it. And that 207 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: would engage people in ndustry. No end and lo and behold. 208 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: A few years later, mad Men certainly did. 209 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: While her idea may have been swiped, it became her 210 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 3: reality when she was sent to New York City to 211 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: open her Advertising Agencies American office in the late nineties. 212 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 3: It was now Cindy, who became the new hotshot advertising 213 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: executive running around the city. 214 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: The advertising agency I used to work for, Bartle Bogle 215 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: Hegety sent me here to open up its American office, 216 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 2: which began as me in a room with a phone, 217 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: starting an ad agency in the world's toughest advertising marketplace. 218 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: But you know, I absolutely got my dream job because 219 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: I love New York. I had seized every opportunity to 220 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: vacation over here, to stop off on business trips, and 221 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 2: very soon after I arrived here in September of nineteen 222 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: ninety eight, I went I found my spiritual home. I'm 223 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: never going back to London and that was it. I 224 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: am now a New Yorker for life. I love this city, 225 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: and you know, I love it for all sorts of reasons. 226 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 2: It's absolutely my kind of pace. You know, I love 227 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: the dynamism, the energy, but I also love the diversity 228 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: and the cultural melting pot of New York, which is 229 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: very special. And so you know, the business I founded 230 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: here and now work on is global in its scope. 231 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: But I think that having been started up in New 232 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: York just you know, not just for my own business, 233 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: but for other businesses. There's something about that energy and 234 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: that open mindedness, and that willingness to embrace difference, that 235 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: absolutely informs, you know, businesses that started here in certain 236 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: informs mine. 237 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: I think it's an important point because I think that 238 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 3: for people who were born and raised in the US, 239 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 3: they actually don't appreciate that the willingness to create something 240 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 3: new and to cross lines is pretty unique to the US. 241 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 3: How did you find that that was not the case 242 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 3: in London. 243 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 2: After I moved here, you know, and I absolutely said 244 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 2: this to people when I would go back and visit 245 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 2: London after New York, London felt so much smaller, sleepier, 246 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: more parochial. And actually one of the reasons I'd wanted 247 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 2: to move to New York in the first place. I 248 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: made this ambition known within within BBH was because I observed, 249 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: and by the way, things are still not greater on 250 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 2: this front, so that this is a massive in diamond 251 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,079 Speaker 2: of the UK. But I observed that when it came 252 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: to women in business, the US was ten years ahead 253 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: of the UK in terms of welcoming women working and leading. 254 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: And I observed this because while I was based at 255 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: BBAH in London, I was running big global pieces of 256 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: business Coca Cola, Polaroid, RayBan, and I was running their 257 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: business across Europe. But what that meant was working with 258 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: teams from the US and quite often visiting you know, 259 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: Atlanta for Coke, Boston for Polaroid, Rochester for RayBan, and 260 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: I realized that my American clients had no issue at 261 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: all with me leading the business, saw me as their 262 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: first point of contact. I built amazing relationships with them, 263 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: and I have to tell you that with you know, 264 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: white male clients in the UK, that was not always 265 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: the case. So interestingly, one of the things that made 266 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: me want to come and work over here was the 267 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: fact that even though as I said, things are still 268 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: not great in this front, at least if you were 269 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: a woman, you were more accepted in business and leadership 270 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: role here than you own the UK. 271 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 3: At that point, Cindy had spent over fifteen years as 272 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: a top executive at Barto book or Hegarty, and despite 273 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: being at the top of her game, she felt as 274 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: if there was something more that she was missing in 275 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 3: her career than in her life. 276 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: Basically, in two thousand and five, I turned forty five 277 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: and I had what I described as my very own 278 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: personal mid life crisis. In the sense that I've always 279 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: thought of forty five as kind of a midlife point. Obviously, 280 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: by the way, the happy assumption that one does in 281 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: fact live to be ninety fingers crossed. 282 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: Well like you' have good genes, yep. 283 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: But in a couple of years running up to it, 284 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: I'd always thought, on one's forty fifth birth is the 285 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: moment when you should pause, take stock, reflect, review, where 286 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: am I being, where am I going? And so on. 287 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: February one, two thousand and five, idually did that, and 288 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: that was the moment in which I went, oh, my god, 289 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: I've just worked sixteen years for the same advertising agency 290 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: and by the way, amazing agency, you know, I mean 291 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: love BBH to death, cannot say enough nice things about them. 292 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: But I went, wow, I think it might be time 293 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: to do something different. And the problem was I hadn't 294 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: the faintest idea what because I'd always said to people 295 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: for years, I'm not going to work in advertising forever, 296 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: not gonna work bh forever. But advertisers a very good 297 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: industry to work in to figure out what you want 298 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: to do next, because you come into contact with so 299 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: many different sectors, companies, people. I guess i'd always thought 300 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: that one day my next big thing with Bubblah from 301 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: ether and there I was the age of forty five 302 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: and it hadn't so I basically, in the summer of 303 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: two thousand and five, took a massive leap into the unknown, 304 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: resigned as chairwel of BBH without a job to go to, 305 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: and honestly best thing that I ever did in my life. 306 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 3: You know, the premise of this show is how personal 307 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: things in our lives end up impacting our professional decisions. 308 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 3: And it sounds like you had a couple along the way, 309 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 3: like wanting to live in the US, but it was 310 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: a lot of professional decisions that you made. You know, 311 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 3: who you wanted to work with, where you wanted to work. 312 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: Do you think there were really driving personal factors in 313 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: the first half or did that come later in the 314 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 3: second half. 315 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: Honestly, none of any of this was consciously planned. I'm 316 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: a big fan of serendipity. My ex boss at BBH, 317 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 2: John Hegerty, has this great mantra. He says, do interesting things, 318 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 2: and interesting things will happen to you, and that's been 319 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: very much I've made my professional life decisions. 320 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: So what did you end up doing in those? Because 321 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 3: we became a founder a couple years after you left 322 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 3: the firm, but not right away. 323 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: So when all these things came to me, I went, Okay, 324 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: I still don't know what I really want to do. 325 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: So I'm going to be employment slut. I'm going to 326 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: talk to everybody. I'm going to take every phone call, 327 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to do every meeting, no preconceived notions. Even 328 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 2: if I think to myself, I'm not sure i'd want 329 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: to work for this company, I'm going to go meet 330 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 2: with them. So I embarked on a fascinating exploratory which 331 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: was as good for telling me what I didn't want 332 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: to do as what I did want to do. That 333 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: that really helped kind of give me a sense of 334 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: what needs to be in place where I work next. 335 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: At the same time, to support myself, I was working 336 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: as a consultant and a public speaker and I've been 337 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 2: doing that ever since. And the way my path went 338 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: was an ex cloud Aman of Bee was starting up 339 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: a new tech venture. This is back in spring of 340 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 2: two thousand and six, and he asked me to partner 341 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: with him on it, and I saw an opportunity to 342 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: make this venture something much more interesting. You know, He 343 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: and the team loved it. The VC's backing the venture 344 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 2: didn't get it, and so I ended up walking away 345 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: from it because they wouldn't give me the equity I 346 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 2: wanted to go forward, and by way, it was a 347 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: very good thing I did, because they just took it 348 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 2: in a very bad direction and it never it never 349 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: went anywhere in the end. But what that meant was 350 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: that I spent three months out of Cambridge in Boston 351 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 2: steeped in the world of tech startups and of what 352 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 2: was essentially a social networking platform. And so when I 353 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 2: came out of that, a headtime to call me up 354 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: about the job of CEO of a Small World. He 355 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: just raised some funding and knew he wasn't the right 356 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: person to take it to the next level. So he's 357 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 2: looking for a CEO to take over, and I was 358 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: really interested because I just spent three months steeped in 359 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: this whole scenario, and A Small World back in the 360 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: day was a very special community. The level of gatedness 361 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: meant there was an extraor amount of trust within the community, 362 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,239 Speaker 2: and you could tap into that anyway you went all 363 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: around the world. So I didn't get that job entertainingly 364 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 2: because of Harvey Weinstein. So Eric had just raised some 365 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 2: money from the Weinstein brothers, and so he wanted me 366 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: to do the job. The whole team wanted me to 367 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: vince CEO, but I had to be interviewed by Harvey Weinstein. 368 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: And by the way, I'm extremely grateful. I clearly wasn't 369 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: in any way harvest type. The interview lasted five minutes 370 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: at the Direka Film Center. I mean literally, he came in, 371 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 2: said Hi, asked me a couple of plunctory questions, dismissed 372 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: me because he had already decided that this job could 373 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: not be done by some you came from the advertising world. 374 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: It had to be someone from Taker Entertainment. So that 375 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: didn't happen. But another one of the investors was Bob Pittman, 376 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 2: you know, the founder of MTV, and and he and 377 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 2: I got on really well. And so he said to 378 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: me this, you know, sorry, isn't going forwards, but if 379 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: you ever have any ideas for anything you might like 380 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: to do, I'd love to hear them. And I thought, gosh, 381 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 2: you know, that's a very nice offer. So I might 382 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 2: go and thought about what I would do if I 383 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: start something myself, and so I came up with the 384 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: ideas my first startup, If We Ran the World, which 385 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: I shared with Bob, and he really liked it, and 386 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: so that gave me the confidence to pursue it. And 387 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: If We Ran the World was based on our observation 388 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: that the single biggest pool of untapped natural resource in 389 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: this world is human good intentions that never translate into action. 390 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: And so I built a platform to take not just 391 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: human good intentions, but corporate good intentions and combine the 392 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 2: two to enable brands and businesses to implement what I 393 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: believe is the business model of the future. Shared values 394 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: plus shared action equals shared profit, financial profit, and social profit. 395 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 4: You can decide exactly how you want to make money. 396 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 4: You can design your business model to be anything you 397 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 4: wanted to be. I believe that the business model of 398 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 4: the future is all about doing good and making money simultaneously, 399 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 4: and that the business model of the future therefore is 400 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 4: shared values plus shared action equals shared profit, financial profit, 401 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 4: and social profit. 402 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: But which I mean that you know when brandom businesses 403 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 2: come together with the audiences, consumers, employees on the basis 404 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: of values that you all share, which, by the way, 405 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 2: is the most important requirement for good relationship in life 406 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: as much as business. You literally bond, finish, share the 407 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: same values. And when you were then enabled to collectively 408 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: and collaboratively coact on those values, to walk the talk together, 409 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: you can then make things happen in the real world. 410 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: It will benefit consumers, benefit society, and benefit the brandness business. 411 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 2: So that's what if rand the world was all about, 412 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 2: and that was what I was in the process of building. 413 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: When life was in a completely different direction. 414 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 3: As you were trying on different things, taking different calls, 415 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 3: consulting for different projects, how did you side what was 416 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 3: worth your time to spend bandwidth on and what would 417 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 3: end up just being a suck to suck your energy 418 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: and suck your creativity so you couldn't also be a 419 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: creative like, how did you balance the space for both? 420 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: I was pursuing my own philosophy of be your own filter. 421 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, you know, as 422 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: anyone who follows me on social media will have seen 423 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: my LinkedIn bio and my biocross all the other channels, 424 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: is I like to blow shit up. I'm the mothel 425 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: bear of business. And where that came about was you know, 426 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 2: back in those years I was in the meeting talking 427 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: to some potential consulting clients about my approach to consulting, 428 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: and I said to them, I consult very selectively, only 429 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: for clients and brands who want to change the game 430 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 2: in their particular sector. So you come to me for radical, innovative, groundbreaking, transformative. 431 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: I don't do status quo that I like, hartly said 432 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 2: off the calf, I like to blow shit up. I'm 433 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: the Michael Bear business and I really laughed. I left 434 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: the meeting and I thought, actually, that's a really good 435 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: way of summing up what I do. So I've been 436 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 2: using that line ever since. But I use that line 437 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: entirely deliberately. It's not a bit of fun or bit 438 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: of whimsy. I use it because when I characterize what 439 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: I do in that way, it attracts me the people 440 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 2: who want what I do. It repels the ones who don't. 441 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: And I want to repel the ones who don't because 442 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,239 Speaker 2: of the waste of time, effort, and money. So I 443 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: am my own filter, and that's how I make sure 444 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: that what I'm focusing on is always worth it. 445 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 3: After pivoting out of advertising and leaving room for exploration 446 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: and opportunity, her next big pivot actually came as a 447 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 3: result of work that she had done for the advertising agency. 448 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 3: She was doing product background in research to pitch an 449 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 3: online dating client. So she created a profile, and much 450 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 3: to her surprise, I. 451 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: Got an avalanche of responses, but the vast majority were 452 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: from younger men, and most of those were much younger men, 453 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 2: And I went, wow, Okay, I hadn't thought about this 454 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: approach to dating, but here I am. You know I 455 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 2: do not. I've never wanted marriage, I've never wanted children. 456 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: I just want to have some fun. So I date 457 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: younger men. They tend to be men in their twenties. 458 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: And about fifteen sixteen years ago, I began realizing through 459 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: dating younger men that I was encountering very intimately and 460 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: directly what happens when two things converge. And I stress 461 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: the dual convergence because most people think it's only one thing. 462 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: I remembered I was experiencing what happens when today's total 463 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: freedom of access to hardcore porn online meets our society 464 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: is equally total reluctance to talk openly and honestly about sex. 465 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 2: When those two things converge, Paul becomes sex education by default, 466 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: in not a good way. So I far myself encountering 467 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: a number of sexual behavioral memes in bed. I went, whoa, 468 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 2: I know where that behavior is coming from. I thought, gosh, 469 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 2: if I'm experiencing this, other people must be as well. 470 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 2: I didn't know that because fifteen years ago, no no 471 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,719 Speaker 2: one was talking about this, no one was writing about it. 472 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: This was me an isolation as a naturally action order person, 473 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: going I'm going to do sorry about this. So nearly 474 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: fifteen years ago now I've put up on no money, 475 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: a tiny, clunky website at makelovenoporn dot com pure as 476 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: a side venture, kind of a public service announcement. You know. 477 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: The construct was porn world versus real world. Here's what 478 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 2: happens in the porn world, here's already happens in the 479 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: real world. I had the opportunity to launch Make Love 480 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: Not Porn at TED in two thousand and nine. I 481 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: became the only TED speaker to say the words come 482 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: on my face on the TED stage six times in succession. 483 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: The talk went viral as a result, and it drove 484 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: this extraordinary global response to my tiny website that I 485 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 2: had never anticipated. 486 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 5: I date younger men predominantly men in their twenties, and 487 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 5: when I date younger men, I have sex with younger men. 488 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 5: And when I have sex with younger men, I am 489 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 5: counter very directly and personally the real ramifications of the 490 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 5: creeping ubiquity. 491 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 6: Of hardcore pornography in our culture. So I am launching 492 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 6: at TED today. I am unveiling make loovelotporn dot com. 493 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 6: This is a website that posts the midst of hardcore 494 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 6: porn and balances them with the reality. 495 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: Thousand people wrote to me from all around the world, 496 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: young and old, male and female, straight and gay, pouring 497 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: their hearts out, telling me things about their sex lives 498 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 2: and their porn watching habits they've never told anyone before. 499 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: And I realized I'd uncovered a huge global social issue. 500 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 2: And so that was the point of which I went, 501 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: oh my god, I now have a personal responsibility. I 502 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 2: have to take make Love Not Porn forwards in a 503 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 2: way that will make it much more far reaching, helpful 504 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: and effect And so I backburned if we ran the world, 505 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: because even I, superhuman as I am, cannot run to 506 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: startups simultaneously. And I turned Make Love Not Porn into 507 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: what it is today. We are as our tagline says 508 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 2: pro sex pro porn pro knowing the difference. So make 509 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: love mo porn is the world's first and only user 510 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 2: generated and importantly one hundred percent of human curated social 511 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 2: sex video sharing platform. 512 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: It's knowing that if we were able to have access 513 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 3: and the freedom for people to choose to see things 514 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 3: in the same way as they do on Instagram on Facebook, 515 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 3: how amazing will that be? 516 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 5: Literal social sex revolution. 517 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 3: Let's talk about it without there being such a stigma 518 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 3: and this pressure. Oh my god, everything's so terrible. No, 519 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 3: we were here. 520 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: To have a conversation, so a kind of what Facebook 521 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 2: would be if it allowed you to socially sexually self express, 522 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 2: which it clearly doesn't. The way to think about make 523 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: Love not Porn is if paun is the Hollywood movie, 524 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 2: may Clove, not porn is the badly needed documentary. We 525 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: are a unique window onto the funny, messy, loving, wonderful 526 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: sex we will have in the real world. And what 527 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 2: we're doing is we are socializing, normalizing, and destigmatizing sex, 528 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 2: bringing out of the shadows into the sunlight to promote consent, communication, 529 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: good sexual valuism behavior. We are literally sex education through 530 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: real world demonstration. 531 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 3: Now, one of the things that you made a point 532 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 3: of saying here is that it's human curated. That was 533 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 3: interesting to me. Why do you make that point in particular? 534 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: You know, I'm glad you asked that. 535 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: I mean, because we operate very uniquely as a business, 536 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: and we don't get enough credit for it because people 537 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: get stuck. 538 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: On oh my god, people have sex and video. 539 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: So I want to contextualize my response in the broader 540 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 2: tech landscape as a whole, because the young white male 541 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: founders of the giant tech platforms that dominate our lives today, 542 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 2: they are not the primary targets online offline of harassment, abuse, 543 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 2: sexual assault, violence, racism, rape, revenge, porn. Therefore, they did 544 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 2: not and they do not, proactively design for the prevention 545 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: of any of those things on their platforms, and we 546 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 2: see the results of that around us every single day. 547 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: Those of us who are most at risk every single day, women, 548 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: black people, people of color, LGBTQ, that disabled. We design 549 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: safe spaces and safe experiences. I designed Make Love Not 550 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: Porn through the female Lens to be the safest place 551 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: on the Internet because I designed around what everybody else 552 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: should have. Nobody else did human curation. There is no 553 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 2: self publishing of anything on Make Love Not Porn. Our 554 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: curators watch every frame of every video submitted from beginning 555 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,479 Speaker 2: to end before we approve or reject and we publish it. 556 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: No one ask does that. We review every post on 557 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: every member profile, and by the way, on Make Love 558 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: No Porn, those posts can be as safe work or 559 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: not safe work as you like, you know, text photos, illustration, 560 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: but we review them, we approve, our reject, and we 561 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: publish them. No one else does that we review every 562 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 2: comment on every video before we approve or reject and 563 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: publish it. No one else does that. We can vouch 564 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: for every single piece of content on our platform in 565 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: a way that nobody else can. And one thing to 566 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: bear in mind, I mean is that we are tiny, bootstrapping, 567 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: have no money, and we've human created everything for over 568 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: ten years. Imagine what Facebook and you do you do 569 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 2: their billions if they chose to safety on the Internet 570 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: is not a matter of viability, It's a matter. 571 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: Of will, right. It's a matter of choosing to prioritize 572 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 3: exactly putting your resources there. So what is the business 573 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 3: model for it? 574 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 2: So I foresaw the creator economy fourteen fifteen years ago 575 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: when I concepted Make Love Not Porn around a revenue 576 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: sharing model which I've designed to democratize access to income. 577 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: So our members pay to subscribe and then rent and 578 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 2: stream social sex videos. Half the income goes to our contributors, 579 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: whom I call our Make Love Not Porn stars. And 580 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: as I say, this was like over a decade before 581 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: the creater economy OnlyFans, you know. I designed my own 582 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,239 Speaker 2: startup around my own beliefs, and one of those is 583 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: that everybody should get to realize the value of what 584 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: they create. And I feel that especially strongly because my 585 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: background is theater and advertising, two industries where ideas and 586 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: creativity are massively undervalued, even by the creators themselves. So 587 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: I believe that when you create something, anything that gives 588 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: other people pleasure, that might be a video, a piece 589 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 2: of journalism, you know, a book, you should see a 590 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: financial return on it. And the more people you give 591 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: more pleasure to, the greater that financial return should be. 592 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: So when we launched Make Love Not Porn, I introduced 593 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 2: our business model with a blog post that I titled 594 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: how Make Love Not Porn can Help the Global economy, 595 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: and I began it by saying, you know all those 596 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 2: little scam ads that pop up on the Internet all 597 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: the time going make ten thousand dollars a week working 598 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: from home, Well now you can. And I said in 599 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: that post, my vision is that one day make Love 600 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: Nott Porn hits the kind of critical mass where your 601 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 2: video gets a million rentals at five dollars per rental 602 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: and we give you half income. By the way, that's 603 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: still our vision, where some way off from achieving it 604 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: until we get funded. But I was thrilled when during 605 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: the pandemic, like everybody else, our make Love Nott porn 606 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: stars lost jobs, couldn't find work. They told us that 607 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: our monthly payouts were what kept them going, help them 608 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: pay rent, help them survive. And that's exactly why I 609 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: designed that revenue showing business model. 610 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: Now, you said, in the sense of the interaction of 611 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 3: the personal and the professional, if you've always dated men 612 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 3: who are primarily in their twenties, did you see a 613 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 3: marked difference in behavior over time or was it sort 614 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 3: of a gradual change? And then does that basically turn 615 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: you into the instructor? And does that get exhausting? 616 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: Obviously, you know dating men my own age previously and 617 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: so you know, this was the first time that I 618 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: identified what Make Love Not Porn was created to address, 619 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: which is when I realized, my god, you know, the 620 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: ubiquity of online porn now means that that is what 621 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 2: these young men are taking instructure from. And yes, absolutely, 622 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: I then had to tackle that. And you know, I 623 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: think this is why people have responded so positively Make 624 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 2: Love Not Porn from the get go, because I completely 625 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: understand the issue. I'll be in bed with a younger 626 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: man and I'll go, Okay, we're going to have a 627 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: conversation about this, and the moment I've broached that conversation, 628 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: the atmosphere ben is going to change. But I have 629 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: to do this for every other woman he'll ever sleep with, 630 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: and I have to tell you that what I've found. 631 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 2: And again, this is how I reassure people, because the 632 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: entire point of Make Love Not Porn, in socializing sex, 633 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: is to make it easier for every single person in 634 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: the world to talk about sex, and people welcome the conversation. 635 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of radical simplicty. I like to 636 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: keep things very simple. The single biggest turn on in 637 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: this world is to be in bed with somebody and know, 638 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: they're having a bloody, amazing time because of you. That's 639 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: what everybody wants. And so when you broke communication around 640 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 2: this topic with that goal in mind, you know, the 641 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 2: young men I date love that and they welcome the 642 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: education and they see the results, and that makes them 643 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: all the kuna to make sure that they adopt that 644 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 2: approach going forwards. 645 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 3: Now, you mentioned that you would never want to get 646 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 3: married or have children. Was that something that was just 647 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 3: always kind of in you. 648 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 2: It wasn't consciously in my you know, because obviously I 649 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: grew up with the same social conditioning we all do, 650 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: especially growing up in Asia, where you know, a woman's 651 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: role is especially focused in that culture on you get married, 652 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: you have children. So it was something I realized over 653 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: time that, you know, marriage was absolutely not an end. Girl. 654 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: I really did not want children, And by the way, 655 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 2: I'm so glad. I always knew that I was supposed 656 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: to find out the hard way by having them, and 657 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: over time I just went I didn't even want to 658 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: be in a relationship. In fact, I remember the moment, 659 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: and this wasn't one moment per se. It was more 660 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 2: like a gradualization, But it was at some point in 661 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: my thirties that you know, I just went, I'm not 662 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 2: here for the one anymore. Because from the moment we're 663 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: born as girls and women. Everything in popular culture, you know, 664 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 2: from the fairy tales were read as babies. Everything tells 665 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 2: us that we must dedicate our life to finding the one. 666 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 2: And what that means is that in your teens and 667 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 2: your twenties, you go to every single social event thinking, 668 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 2: you know, and I'm straight, so I'm going to use 669 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 2: the straight colism, but will he be there? What this 670 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 2: means you spend bloody hours clamming yourself up and making 671 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: yourself up. You go to the social event. This quest 672 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 2: is a dynamic that forces you to compete with other women, 673 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 2: which is a out of clause. At the end of 674 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: the night, you trudge him going he wasn't there. Maybe 675 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: next time. And so at some point in my thirsts 676 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 2: I just went saw this, I'm not give for the 677 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: one anymore. Oh my god, the liberation and the relief 678 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: because now I could go to social events and just 679 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: enjoy them. By the way, obviously there are people who 680 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 2: want to find the one, who want to find the soulmate. 681 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 2: But the sheer joy of when you decide that you 682 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 2: actively do not want to be in love. That strips 683 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 2: a whole lay of crap out of life. I'm very 684 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 2: public about all of this. I'm open about, you know, 685 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 2: not married, not in children, adoring being single, not want 686 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: to relationship, don't want to be in love, cannot wait 687 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 2: to dialone, date young men for sex. I'm probably about 688 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 2: all of that because we don't have enough role models 689 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 2: in our society for women and for men, by the way, 690 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: that demonstrate you can live in your life very differently 691 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 2: the way to start expected to and still be amazingly happy. 692 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 2: I want to have this people, I know, did. 693 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 3: You think along the way of what you were doing 694 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 3: as revolutionary or you were just sort of like this 695 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 3: is just the way I am, and other people started 696 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 3: paying attention. 697 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 2: You know, this is the way I wish other people 698 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: would look at this. I just realize what makes me happy. 699 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: And so many people live life in oiled grooves. So 700 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 2: many people are living lives that don't really want to 701 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: be living that don't really want to be in in 702 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: relationships that don't want to really I mean, they have 703 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 2: children they didn't really want to have, just because of 704 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 2: what society and popular culture told them. What their parents 705 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: wanted what all their friends were doing at the same time. 706 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: And I urge people to stop, take all those other 707 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: considerations out of your mindset, look deep into your own 708 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: heart and ask yourself what would really make me happy, 709 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 2: because maybe living life on those oiled grooves won't. 710 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 3: So do you then find the creator economy right now? 711 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 3: Like the prevalence of it? Like OnlyFans being in the category, 712 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 3: do you see them as a competitor or are they 713 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 3: kind of building the category for you? 714 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: I wish they were building in a category for us. 715 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 2: And that's because no, I absoutly don't see them as 716 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 2: a competitor. You know, it's like porn. We are pro 717 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 2: sex pro paorn pro knowing the difference. So only fans 718 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 2: is adult content in a performative context because you're performing 719 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 2: for fans and you're fulfilling fan request, not all of 720 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 2: which you may feel very happy fulfilling, by the way, 721 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 2: but you know, if you want to make money, that's 722 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:06,919 Speaker 2: what you have to do. And the good thing about 723 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 2: make love not porn is that nobody's requesting anything, no 724 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 2: one's performing because this is simply the sex you have 725 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: in your life. But you know, it's a huge shame 726 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 2: because only fans growth and size means that they had 727 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 2: the opportunity to mainstream adult entertainment in the creater economy 728 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 2: for all the rest of us, and that's not what 729 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 2: they chose to do. You know, it is still a 730 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 2: matter of debate as to whether or not they will 731 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 2: at some point absolutely do what they did a few 732 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 2: years ago and kick ad our content off the platform 733 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 2: in order to get funded and support and be able 734 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 2: to grow. And they should have just embraced, you know, 735 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 2: the fact that that was what powered their growth. It's 736 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: absolutely why they started only fans. But honestly, you know, 737 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 2: with the original found and CEO, he would literally read 738 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 2: interviews with him where he was asked if you buy 739 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 2: the information, So you know, obviously adult content is ary 740 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: powered only fans growth. You know, where do you see 741 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 2: that going? Oh? I think we see our future in 742 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 2: music and film entertainment. And literally avoiding the question they 743 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 2: haven't avoided in subsequent years. But that's how much they 744 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 2: want to present themselves as just a general fan platform. 745 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 2: How much do they embrace you know what actually they 746 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 2: owe their success to and so I would have loved 747 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 2: to have seen them do that. It's a huge shame 748 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:32,439 Speaker 2: they didn't. What are your markers of success now? Honestly, depressingly, 749 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 2: my most immediate marker of success is raising funding. Because 750 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 2: I've kept making Love Not Porn Alive for nearly eleven 751 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 2: years now as a business on just three million dollars 752 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: of funding from one investor. That's extraorinary feet and by 753 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 2: the way, all my own savings. I've destroyed myself financially 754 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 2: for this business to keep it going, and so I 755 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 2: really need to raise funding now to scale the business, 756 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 2: to build out the zo I rode to eight in 757 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: and beyond sex education expansion. Parents have asked before since 758 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 2: day one, make lovenotporn dot academy. 759 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 3: You know. 760 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, now measure of success is simply survival, which we 761 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,240 Speaker 2: will only manage if I can raise funding. 762 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 3: What is something that you saw as a negative at 763 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 3: some point in your life and then now in retrospect 764 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 3: you look back and you're like, oh, that actually really 765 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 3: put me in the right direction. 766 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 2: There are things that where I'm doubtitely negatives about, for example, 767 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 2: my industry in my cron advertising, which I wish weren't 768 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 2: negatives because I was lucky enough not to be impacted 769 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 2: by them. And I say that because whenever I'm asked 770 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 2: about my you know what, is always framed as my 771 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 2: successful cryan advertising, I explain that my success was entirely 772 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 2: accidental as well, and it was down to luck. And 773 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 2: it was down to luck on two fronts. First of all, 774 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,720 Speaker 2: I was incredibly lucky that I never got sexually harassed 775 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 2: in the way the end of my career, and by 776 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 2: the way, I was absolutely sexually harassed, but not in 777 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 2: a way that happens to so many women in my industry. 778 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 2: In every other where you are retaliated against, you are 779 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 2: managed out of your company, you are managed out of 780 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 2: your industry, and that honesty was a matter of pure luck. 781 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 2: Then the second thing I was lucky about was I 782 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 2: can literally count on the fingers of one hand a 783 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 2: number of female bosses I had in my advertising career. 784 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 3: Too. 785 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 2: I was incredibly lucky because I virtually always reported into men. 786 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 2: But I reported to men who saw my potential before 787 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 2: I did, who wanted me to succeed, who championed me 788 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 2: and gave me every opportune to do so. And that 789 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 2: is not the experience of most women industry, and most 790 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 2: women in any industry. And both of those things come from, 791 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 2: you know, a very negative norm. That is the case 792 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 2: not only in advertising but in every industry. And I 793 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: wish those negatives have never ever been there, because we 794 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 2: would have so many more women in positions of power 795 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 2: and leadership and shaping the world in the way it 796 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 2: truly should be shaped if the patriarchy and everything that results, 797 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 2: including sexual harassment us systemic and endemic in every single industry, 798 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: had not prevented so many women from realizing their own potential. 799 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, Cindy, great conversation, So happy 800 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 3: to have you on. 801 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 2: Thrill to have been here on the state. 802 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 3: This is terrific. As you might have guessed it. Cindy 803 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 3: still lives happily in New York City and is continuing 804 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 3: to build her company, Make Love Not Porn. Like Cindy said, 805 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 3: they need capital to keep the movement going, so if 806 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 3: you're interested in being involved, you can contact us through 807 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 3: our website, she Pivots the podcast dot com. Be sure 808 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 3: to follow Cindy on Instagram at Cindy Gallup to stay 809 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 3: up to date on her general badassory. Thanks for listening. 810 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots where 811 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 3: I talk with women about how their experiences significant personal 812 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 3: events led to their pivot and eventually their success. To 813 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,879 Speaker 3: learn more about Cindy Make Love Not Porn and all 814 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 3: of our guests and fun happenings, follow us on Instagram 815 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 3: at she Pivots the podcast. Leave a rating and comment 816 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 3: if you enjoyed this episode to help others learn about it. 817 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 3: A special thank you to our partner Marie Claire and 818 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 3: the team that made this episode possible. Talk to You 819 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 3: Next Week special thanks to the she Pivots team, Executive 820 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 3: producer Emily eda Velosik, Associate producer and social media connoisseur 821 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 3: Hannah Cousins, Research director Christine Dickinson, Events and Logistics coordinator 822 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 3: Madeleine Sonovak, and audio editor and mixer Nina pollock I 823 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 3: endorse she Pivots