1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: From this episode of news World. I just finished reading 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: the thirteen volumes of Bernard cornwell Saxon series, which has 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: been the base for the Netflix series on the Last Kingdom, 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: and I was thrilled because I'd already read twice his 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: entire series on Sharp's, his remarkable book on Egen Gorp, 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: and his non fiction work on Waterloo. And I had 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: gotten into all this in part because one evening over 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: a dinner, General Jim Mattis, who later became Secretary of Defense, 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: said to me he had never fully understood Waterloo until 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: he read Sharp's Waterloo. And I thought, well, that's a 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: pretty good expert to have give you advice, so I 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: dove in. And I must say, both of these series 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: are amazing, and I don't know which is the more amazing. 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: On the one hand, Bernard Cornwell is able to take 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: you through the Napoleonic Wars, starting with Wellesley in India, 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: and do it in a way that every adventure is interesting, 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: and yet he is really keeping you a chance to 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: understand from the long competition between Wellington and the French 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: ship's going on. On the other hand, his study of 20 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: the Saxon struggle with the Danes and the rise of 21 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: Alfred the Great and the challenges of what's a cultural 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: racial war is just equally astounding. So it is a 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: thrill to me personally to have Bernard Cornwell chat with us. 24 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: I have to start. You were born in London in 25 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, sort of a war baby. Your dad 26 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: was a Canadian airman, your mother was in the Women's 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: Auxiliary Air Force of Great Britain. You were adopted by 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: a family in Essex who belonged to a religious sect 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: called the Peculiar People. Then you escape to London University 30 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: and after a period as a teacher, you joined BBC Television, 31 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: where you worked for a decade. But you ended up 32 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: falling in love with an American and she didn't want 33 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: to move to Britain for family reasons, so you went 34 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: to the States. The US government and its infinite wisdom 35 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: did not give you a green card, thereby forcing you 36 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: into a job which has changed history, and you became 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: a professional writer. Now you've already been writing for the BBC, 38 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: but I'm curious what was it like to suddenly find 39 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: yourself there at the typewriter, banging away at a novel. 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: It was daunting, I mean I'd never written a novel. 41 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: I think I'd always wanted to. But I realized that 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: if I was going to marry Judy, I had to 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: stay in America and I had to earn a living. 44 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: And I thought, oh, well, why not. You always wanted 45 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: to write a novel, so try And how did the 46 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: early novels go in terms of being able to market 47 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: them and find a publisher and all those things. Well, 48 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: I was incredibly lucky. I mean not only a meeting Judy, 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: but I went to a Thanksgiving Day party in New 50 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: York and a voice behind me said, in very British tones, well, 51 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: I have to explain that the McDonald's All America High 52 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: School band was marching beneath us, playing selection from Oklahoma 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: or something. And the voice said, they do this sort 54 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: of thing frightfully, Well don't they? And I, being a 55 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: brilliant conversational he said, oh you're English, yes, he said. 56 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: I said what you do? He said, I'm a literary agent. 57 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: I said, oh good, I've just written a novel. Whereupon 58 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: he used a four letter word and walked away from me. 59 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: So I followed him into the room off the verandah, 60 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: and I said, I've had an offer on this novel. 61 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: How much, he said, So I told him. He repeated 62 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: the word and walked away again. So I trapped him 63 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: another time and said, please please read my novel. He said, oh, well, 64 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: dear boy, if you must meet me in the Oyster 65 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: bor A Grand Central station at noon tomorrow. So I did, 66 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: and he phoned me that evening He just said, how 67 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: much do you want for this book? And within two 68 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: weeks I had a seven book contract with a publisher. 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: Now was this the original Sharps or what was it? 70 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: It was Sharp's Eagle, which was the first one I wrote, 71 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: and I'm never to reread. It's quite a good book. 72 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: The portrait you draw in there of the stuffy, sanctimonious 73 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: colonel of the regiment is brilliant. Frankly, somebody who's occasionally 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: written books, I am shocked that that was your first book, 75 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: because it's actually quite good. Thank you very much. I 76 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: might try and reread it then, But now you wrote 77 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: I think I'm accurate. I think it's eighteen volumes in 78 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: the Sharp series twenty two, twenty two, Okay, you've got 79 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: four to go. Well, I'm gonna have to go back 80 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: and figure out. I think I probably miscounted because I 81 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: bought everyone that's on Amazon, so I feel comfortable I've 82 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: actually read them. But you also do something which I 83 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: think is quite remarkable. They're very good writing, They're great 84 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: adventure stories. The character of Sharp is terrific, and I 85 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: think you capture Wellesley and Nno and he becomes Wellington, 86 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 1: very very well. I spent a lot of time in 87 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four studying Wellington and thinking about his campaigns. 88 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: But then you pivot and you write it what's really 89 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: a very different kind of series. I mean, The Last 90 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: Kingdom is an absolutely remarkable portrait of the rise of 91 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: England and the creation of England, the invention of it 92 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: in many ways. And you say, in part you did 93 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: this because we tend to skip over that in teaching history. 94 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: We certainly do in Britain. I mean, I think I 95 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: had a very good education in Britain. But it more 96 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: or less begins with ten sixty six, the Norman invasion, 97 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: and what happened before is skimmed over very very quickly. 98 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: And I realized that I actually didn't know how England 99 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: was created, and I thought I want to know, So 100 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: I for years read as much as I could about 101 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: the Saxon period, and it's really rather strange. I mean, 102 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: most countries have an idea of where they come from, 103 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: and this kind has a very very strong, good idea 104 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: of where it came from and exactly how it began. 105 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: But the English really don't know how England came to be. 106 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: So I thought, well, that's a nice story to tell, 107 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: you know. I thought in the series that the actor 108 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: who plays Alfred is as brilliantly perfect as I've ever seen. 109 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: I'd agree with you, David Dawson. It was a wonderful, 110 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: wonderful performance. I mean, I'm not sure how much I 111 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: like Alfred, even though he is, if you like, not 112 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: quite the creator of England. But England is his idea 113 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: and he never lived to see it. But he was 114 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: a Puritan, a strange man. He was sick all his life. 115 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: His first love was the church, his second love with scholarship, 116 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: and yet he waged a successful war against the Viking invasions. 117 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: So he's a great man. He's the only one in 118 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: the whole history of Britain who is called the great, 119 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: and I think he deserves that. But I'm not sure 120 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: I like him. He's portrayed as somebody who isn't particularly likable, 121 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: but whose dedication to duty and sheer intelligence makes him 122 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: formidable and makes him effective. That's exactly right. He's probably 123 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: the most intelligent king we ever had. And I mean, 124 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: I know there's an awful lot of dads around as well, 125 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: not much competition for him, but he was an extremely 126 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: intelligent man and he used that intelligence as a weapon. 127 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: It also struck me that he's driven into the Marshes 128 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: by the Danes who capture the Castle of Winchester, and 129 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: then in effect has the Great comeback out of the marshes. 130 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: In a way, I don't know if this makes any sense, 131 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: it's a little parallel to Robert the Bruce being driven 132 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,239 Speaker 1: into the mountains, ending up in a cave with about 133 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: a dozen companions, watching the spider weave the web and thinking, 134 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: you know, I guess you just have to keep doing it, 135 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: and a little bit of Washington crossing the Delaware on 136 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: Christmas night with these mythic moments when normal, reasonable people 137 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: break and quit. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I had not 138 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: thought of those parallels, but absolutely right. I mean, it's 139 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: an extraordinary thought that the English world, its culture, it's 140 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: language that we share in the year eight seven eight 141 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: was driven to a refuge in the Athney Marshes, and 142 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: it could have been obliterated, and then England would probably 143 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: have become Daneland, and we might have been speaking in 144 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: Danish now instead of English. And yet Alfred leads the 145 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: reaction to that and defeats the Danes at the Great 146 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: Battle of Edgington. Well, and he somehow combines the church 147 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: and religious impulse with the ethnic impulse of being Saxon 148 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: in a way which makes the fight between pagan Danes 149 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: and the Christian English remarkable and gives him a hidden 150 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: weapon in the structure of the church. Yes, I mean 151 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: his ambition was to make a united England, or he 152 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: would call it england Land. He said, it combines all 153 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: those who speak the English tongue. But it was also 154 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: a religious crusade for him, and if any Dane converted 155 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: to Christianity in his mind, that Dane automatically became a friend. 156 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: And a number of Danes did convert simply to stop 157 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: him beating them up. Well, and you have most of 158 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: the characters in the thirteen novels are actually real. I 159 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: look up Father Bioka, who I think is also brilliantly 160 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: portrayed in the Netflix seris and you know he's real. 161 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: I mean, he's there and we know his dates. You 162 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: must do an astonishing level of research. Well, it's nice 163 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: for you to think, so, I mean, I do do 164 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: a huge amount of research, because research is a lifelong project. 165 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: And I've been reading the Anglo Saxons for at least 166 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: twenty thirty years before I even started to write the series. 167 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: I mean similarly with Sharp, I'd been reading about Wellington 168 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: all my life, so a huge amount of research was 169 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: already tucked away, so to speak. So the one character 170 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: who is clearly fictional is also the person who carries 171 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: the whole thirteen volumes in the series is Utred of Babenberg. 172 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: That in itself has a fascinating parallel in your own life. 173 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: Well it does, because you mentioned my real parents, and 174 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: I was in my fifties before I met them, and 175 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: my father had been in the Royal Canadian Air Force 176 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: was now living in British Columbia. And when I met him, 177 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: he said, oh, you should see the family tree. And 178 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: the family tree went all the way back to a 179 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: man called either the flame Bearer, and he was one 180 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: of the Viking invaders who first captured a fortress that 181 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: was called Bebenberg is now called Bambra. And I found 182 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: out that his success as were often named Outred. There 183 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: was a whole line of Utred's and that was curious 184 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: because his surname was Outred and the name had stuck 185 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: through over a thousand years. And I'd always wanted to 186 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: write this series about the creation of England, but most 187 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: historical novels have If you like a big story in 188 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: a little story, and if you think of Gone with 189 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: the Wind, the big story is the Civil War. The 190 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: little story is where the Scarlet can save Tara, and 191 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: you flipped them. You put the little story in the 192 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: foreground and the big story in the background. So I 193 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: had the big story. I didn't have a little story, 194 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, I've got an ancestor. It was 195 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 1: part of that. That's my little story and how did 196 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: he hold onto Bebbenburg? And that became the story. Have 197 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: you visited Bamberg? I visited Bamberg many, many times and 198 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: love it, and I think the last visit I actually 199 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: met the owner. It's a huge castle, a beautiful and 200 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: enormous castle, mostly restored in the nineteenth century. The pictures 201 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: I've seen it looks like it must have been amazingly 202 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: formidable in the Middle Age. It was totally formidable. It 203 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: was eventually destroyed, I think in the Civil War by 204 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: cannon fab but it's been rebuilt since. And I said 205 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: to the owner, you do realize that this castle Bunce 206 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: belonged to us, and it was stolen from us by 207 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: treachery in ten sixteen. And I said, obviously, if you've 208 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: got a shred of honor, you have to return it. 209 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: And he said to me, let me show you the 210 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: heating bills, and I said, I surrender, keep it. We 211 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: went to the castle, which is where they filmed out 212 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: in Abbey, and there was a similar conversation, if only 213 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: you knew what it takes to sustain one of these estates, 214 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: and just at a practical level. But now Houghtred, who 215 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: I think is brilliantly portrayed actually by a German actor. 216 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: But it's just astonishing. I think, how good a job 217 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: he does. Oh, I agree with you, Alexander, and I 218 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: was born in Germany. He's most complicated man. He now, 219 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: like me, lives in the United States and speaks perfect English, 220 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: and I always think of him as English but I 221 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: guess he is reel German. He affects a kind of 222 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: unusual accent in the series. Yes, he does. When they 223 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: made the series, they tried very hard to have Scandinavians 224 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: playing most of the Danish or Viking parts, and English 225 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: actors like David Dawson playing the Saxon parts. And I 226 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: think that worked very well. Yeah, it really did. I mean, 227 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: what does it feel like to see your writing up 228 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: on a screen? I feel very detached from it. I mean, 229 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 1: I watched it on Netflix. It's like everybody else. And 230 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: occasionally my wife gets confused by a story point. She says, 231 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: what's happening? I said, I don't know. I only wrote 232 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: the books. Somebody once said you have to have a 233 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: certain discipline to realize when they buy the right of 234 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: the book, they have bought the right of the book, 235 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: and that the requirements of movies are different than the 236 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: requirements of novels. Absolutely, And the people who made The 237 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: Last Kingdom also made down to Nabby. Oh is that right? Yeah? 238 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: So I thought, well, even though I worked in television 239 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: for ten years, I know nothing about putting drama on televisions. 240 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: I'll shut up and just stay away from it. You know, 241 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: one of the single volumes for those of our listeners 242 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: who'd like to sort of put a toe in before 243 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: they pick up thirteen and twenty two volume series. But 244 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: one of your single volumes, which I think is really 245 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: really helpful, is agencor I think it's very well done, 246 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: and of course it's one of the decisive battles of 247 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. How did you come to it and 248 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: what's your sort of reflection on it. I think I 249 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: came to it through a fascination with the war bow, 250 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: the longbow, which was if you like the secret weapon, 251 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: I mean, much as sharp fights the French with a rifle. 252 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: And the French didn't use rifles, they didn't like them. 253 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: But the British should learned a lesson in North America 254 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: about rifles and said they formed a rifle brigade. And 255 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: the rifle brigade was, if you like, a secret weapon, 256 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: which was used to great effect during the whole Napoleonic Wars. 257 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: And the longbow was similar. And I'd spent a long 258 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: time finding all I could out about longbows, and then 259 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,479 Speaker 1: I thought, well, lovely, the obvious books to write is Agincourt, 260 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,239 Speaker 1: which is the great victory of the longbow. What's intriguing 261 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: to me is you get in Poitier Cracy and in Agencorps, 262 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: the French committed exactly the same mistake three times over 263 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: the course of a century. Yes, and they did exactly 264 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: the same with the Napoleonic Wars, right, That's what I 265 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: was gonna say. The parallel here that they never understand 266 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: the military crest. They never understand that the line will 267 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: always defeat the column when you have guns, and they think. 268 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: Wellington said about Waddloo something like they can up the 269 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: same old way and we put them back the same 270 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: old way. I was about to quote that to you 271 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: exactly what he said. What is should you think about? 272 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a French cultural phenomenon. In 273 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: the case of quite an increasy and Agencourt, the defeatures 274 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: so annihile eating that you would think that the French 275 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: aristocracy would decided at some point to quit just getting killed. Well, 276 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: you would hope. So I think they did try and 277 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: adapt to it. I mean at Poitier and indeeded Agencourt 278 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: they made their attack on foot, and of course they 279 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: had a great belief in their armor, because as longbows 280 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: got more and more deadly, so armor became thicker and 281 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: more effective, but not effective enough. And the same in 282 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: the Napoleonic Wars, they had worked out a device to 283 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: defeat the British line, but it never worked. They kept 284 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: on trying it. I mean their way of doing that 285 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: was to advance in column and then to deploy into 286 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: line at the last moment, but the last moment was 287 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: always too late and out to be their last moment. Well. 288 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: At the same time, just as the longbow requires an 289 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: amazing level of practice and strength, and also I was 290 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: sort of surprised by this. I went from your novel 291 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: to several non fiction works on the Asian Corps. The 292 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: scale of logistics to provide enough arrows for the longbow 293 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: led to sort of strict regulation of having enough geese 294 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: to have enough feathers. I mean, there's this entire national 295 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: defense industry behind the longbow, and it's very, very impressive. 296 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: Every country had to produce so many and so that 297 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: blacksmiths had to produce so many arrowheads. Forests had to 298 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: produce the ash shafts, and as you say, the goose 299 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: feathers and the feathers on an arrow all had to 300 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: come from the same wing of the goose, otherwise it 301 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 1: wouldn't work. And then they were assembled and sent to London, 302 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: and then they were packed in barrels and sent over 303 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: to France. But they literally did millions of arrows, and 304 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: luckily they had them. Yeah, that's what I was saying. 305 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: I said, it's not just the ability of a marksman, 306 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: it's the fact that they could saturate the field with 307 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: so many arrows. Yes, and a good longbowman could shoot 308 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: up to fifteen arrows a minute. In fact, the longbow 309 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: is so effective that Wellington wrote to the War Office 310 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: during the Napoleonic Wars and said, why can't we have longbows? 311 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: And the answer was, where there are not enough men 312 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: trained and strong enough to use them to stick with 313 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: your basket? Yeah, And of course you then would have 314 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: to have recreated the entire arrow industry to produce enough 315 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: arrows you would, And in fact Ben Franklin suggested longbows 316 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: during the Revolution. That's amazing. It's being much more effective 317 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: than baskets. I mean, I get this. So instead you 318 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: feel that Henry the fift was going to win, But 319 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't quite the gamble that people in retrospective suggested. 320 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: Henry had enormous faith in his archers, enormous faith and 321 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: in his men. The other thing that amused me about 322 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: Agencourt is we have Shakespeare's great speech before the battle, 323 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: and it's still held up as one of the great 324 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: pre battle speeches. In fact, what he said, and there 325 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: are two witnesses to this, his words were, let's go Fellas. 326 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: That was the speech. That was it, Let's go Fellas. 327 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: And Tom Brady I noticed, always on the sidelines and 328 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: saying let's go. Great leaders don't change much. That's really wild. 329 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: I had not known that. Now I'm crushed because I 330 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: thought it was such a great speech when Shakespeare wrote it. 331 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: It was so where do you go next? What are 332 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: you working on? And working on the twenty third? Sharp? Ah? 333 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: And will this be a post Apolloni or just take 334 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: us back into taking us back into the Peninsula war. 335 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: I always think Sharp is at his best when he's 336 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: in Spain. Oh, I think that's right. And I think 337 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: he's at his best when he is junior. I think 338 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: towards the very end when he's it's a little bit 339 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: like what happens to Hornblower. I mean something about achieving 340 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: too much rank that you lose some of the cutting edge. 341 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: I think, I don't know if Sharp loses it, but 342 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: I'll have a look. So well, I'm looking forward to 343 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: that coming up is as a solo markable. Now what 344 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: led you to go back and write the non fiction Waterloo? Well, 345 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: it was partly the fact that the bicentenary of the 346 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: battle was coming up, and there hadn't been what I 347 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: thought of as a good popular non fiction book on 348 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: Waterloo since David Howarth's book A Near Run Thing, which 349 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: I think was published back in nineteen sixty four, and 350 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: I thought, well, there may well be a market for this. 351 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 1: And the battle has always fascinated me. I mean, history 352 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: doesn't usually supply you with a really neat story, but 353 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: Waterloo is exactly that. I mean, we don't know which 354 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: way that battle is going to go until the very 355 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: last moment, when the sun is already fading, when the 356 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: Imperial Guard makes its huge attack. So it's one a 357 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: brilliant story, in two I think it needed to be 358 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: retold in a form that made it accessible to anybody. 359 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: Do you think Wellington was not sure how the battle 360 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: was going to go? I'm sure he was. He wasn't 361 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: a man given to nervousness, but he later confessed he 362 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: was nervous. I mean, as he said, it was a 363 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: near run thing, and throughout the day he kept looking 364 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: after his left to see if the Prussians were going 365 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: to arrive. And on the other hand, he did have 366 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: enormous faith in his British infantry. Give me enough of those, 367 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: he said before the battle, and I'll win. And he 368 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: didn't have enough. I mean, only thirty three thousand of 369 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: his men came from the British infantry battalions and the 370 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: rest were of dubious value. Well, and they are soo 371 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: much like with the Long Woe. They practiced musketry on 372 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: a scale that nobody else did. Yes, they were the 373 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: only nation that actually and I can't speak for the USA, 374 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: and this because I don't know. They probably did the 375 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: same that allowed men to actually practice with live rounds. 376 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: Most armies simply went through the most of loading, talking 377 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: the gun and snapping the trigger on an empty chamber. 378 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: But the British advantage was their speed of fire. They 379 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: could fire a mask it faster than the French. I 380 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: imagine the Americans were the same because they're not foolish. 381 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: The other ideal back to the West end of there 382 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: are two aspects to it that I thought was fascinating. One, 383 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: you really pick up on the notion of what the 384 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: Romans had left behind and the difference in the scale 385 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: of life, the quality of work. It comes up a 386 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: number of times, and it got me to think about 387 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I was aware of it. We just spent 388 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: three and a half years in Rome, where my wife 389 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: was the ambassador of the Vatican, and so you had 390 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: this sense of the splendor that was the empire at 391 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: its peak. But you really drive home the dramatic decline 392 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: in capabilities, whether it's building a house, building a bridge, 393 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: you name it. Yeah, well that's in the Anglo sacs 394 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: and poetry. The poets often express astonishment at the Roman 395 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: buildings that are left behind and the realization that they 396 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: can't do it. This is a great civilization that has 397 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: faded and gone, and there's a feeling throughout Anglo Saxon 398 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: poetry that the world is declining into more and more 399 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: darkness and horror. But I mean, if you were a 400 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: Saxon warrior and you walked into Colchester or Bath or 401 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: even London, what you see are these magnificent buildings. Okay, 402 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: they're decaying and some of them have fallen down, but 403 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: they're nevertheless a witness to a civilization that you just 404 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: don't have any notion how to recreate. I mean, the 405 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: Saxon's built in timber and thatch, and the Romans leave 406 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: behind marble. We visited Bath a couple of years ago 407 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: and you still have the Roman pools there today. It's 408 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: still there, and there are still places in England where 409 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: the Roman walls are standing, and the Saxons often are 410 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: very grateful for that. They move into Roman fortresses like Chester. 411 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: We've spent some time on Hadrian's Wall a few years ago, 412 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: and it's fascinating because again you capture this at a 413 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: very interesting way. Mean, the Scots are clearly different and 414 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,959 Speaker 1: in a sense frighten, even the Vikings absolutely. I mean 415 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: to quote Wellingston, I don't know what they do to 416 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: the enemy, but by God they terrify me. I think 417 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: that was actually said of an Irish regiment. But the 418 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: Scots are the same. I mean, the Scots have always 419 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: been fanatical fighters, and they're great enemies to the Saxons. Well, 420 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: and you communicate that Ireland is unconquerable because the willingness 421 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: to fight is so widespread, and the fact is that 422 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: it's sufficiently disorganized that there's no way for the Vikings 423 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: to defeat somebody and in control. Well, the Vikings try 424 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: very harden because they found Dublin, and much of eastern 425 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: Ireland becomes a Viking kingdom, but it doesn't last. They 426 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: get thrown out. In a parallel which I had not 427 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: realized until with your books, the Welsh in a sense 428 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: are Arthur's people. They're Christians, but so were the Scots. Yes, 429 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: they're Welsh, are less formidable an enemy to the Saxons, 430 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: though they were enemies to the Saxons than the Scots. 431 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: And Wales, of course means foreigners when we say Wales, 432 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: when you think Cornwall is the land of the Cornish foreigners. 433 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: And yes, because of the mountains, they're relatively unconquerable. They're 434 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: relatively unconquerable. That's going to have to wait until the 435 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: Middle Ages. But they're great cattle raiders and great raiders 436 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: across the border, so they're a constant thorn in the 437 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: Saxon side. It's really fascinating, and you capture this whole 438 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: sense of the of the Danes and all of the 439 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: northern people nowadays we've seen Norwegians. Then you have the Scots, 440 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: then you have the Irish, then you have the Welsh, 441 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: and then you have the people who become the English. 442 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: And there are all sort of tension all the way around, absolutely, 443 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: and yet they all meld, and it really is a 444 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: melting pot. And one of my favorite characters that is 445 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: not very big is either a priest who is in 446 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: fact the son of Danish immigrants and becomes the first 447 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: Dane to be Archbishoal of Canterbury. I mean, that's how 448 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: they assimilated so fast, And I mean England is a 449 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: terrible mess if you like, of language and immigrants, and 450 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: much of the north and the east of the country 451 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: still many of the place names are Danish names, and 452 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: many of the words in English are Danish words. We 453 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: don't eat air and for breakfast we eat eggs, and 454 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: we assimilated a huge amount of the Danish language into English. 455 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: Then after ten sixty six, ocus we've introduced a lot 456 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: of French words too, And of course sixty six is 457 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: actually the Danes by way of Normandy. It is indeed, yes, 458 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: I mean William the Conqueror was a grandson of Rollo, 459 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: the Viking and Normandy takes his name from the northern people, 460 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: and in between you end up with Canute the Great, 461 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: Canute the grade who stole Bebbenberg from my family. So 462 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: that's where the theft occurs in ten sixteen. But he's 463 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: apparently equally extraordinary. I think Canute is extraordinary. Yes, maybe 464 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: a temptation somewhere down the road, a temptation. Indeed, Yes, 465 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: he went native. Is that part of how he holds you? 466 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: Because he has a pretty big kingdom, he has a 467 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: pretty big empire. Yeah, I think he holds it together 468 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: by sheer skill. I mean there's sam who say that 469 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: Canute should be the great too, although he obviously would 470 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: not be an English king in that sense, but he 471 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: was the emperor of that whole region. He was indeed 472 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: the king of England and emperor of his own sort 473 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: of territory. And then that all get subsumed by the Normans, 474 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: who are themselves only are assimilated. I mean, we don't 475 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: end up speaking French and England. Yes, thank goodness. Since 476 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: many people have your books as collections, do you have 477 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: any collections yourself? Is there anybody you've collected? Absolutely? I 478 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: collect Lee Child and John Sandford. I'm a huge fan 479 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: of John Sandford, who is actually born on exactly the 480 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: same day as I was. That's amazing if I have 481 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: both sets. Also, I once met Sandford. I think he 482 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: has a remarkable insight into human nature. He does absolutely. 483 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: And Lee Child you simply can't put down. If you're 484 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: a writer. They're pretty good people. Just to get into 485 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: the rhythm of good writing. Oh that's true. I always 486 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: end up when I read both of them just envious. 487 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: I think, how can I do that? And I suspect 488 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: they read you and they're envious. One last question is 489 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: somebody who also writes on occasion. Do you have a 490 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: particular system for how you write or a particular schedule. 491 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,239 Speaker 1: I have a schedule, but not a system. I mean 492 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: the schedule is to start work first thing in the 493 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: morning and keep going until it's time for a drink 494 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: in the evening. As for a system, no, I can't 495 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: plan a book. I wish I could. It would I 496 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: think make life a lot easier. So I tend to 497 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: start off by throwing sharp or whoever it is, into 498 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: a small crisis and see how he gets out of it, 499 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: and then see what happens after that. So I wake 500 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: up every morning thinking I don't know what's going to 501 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: happen today, and I just find out. Well, and you 502 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: had this technique of there will be about a half 503 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: chapter of a crisis. I'll get my brothers the reader, 504 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: and there's a new crisis. And many of them are very, 505 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: very and venny even come at you from angles you've 506 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: never dreamed of. That's nice. It's one of the things 507 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: I find fascinating about how you write. That you're not 508 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: only capturing big things and as you put big stories 509 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: and big facts, but you somehow manage to be a 510 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: great storyteller, which I always think, as a guy who 511 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: used to teach history, I think one of the great 512 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: tragedies is if you have a historian who can't tell stories. Absolutely, 513 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: I always claim that I'm not in his storian, I'm 514 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: a storyteller. Well, and I would say you're one of 515 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: the great storytellers of our lifetime. Well, that's very kind 516 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: of you. Well, you have a remarkable knack. I admire 517 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: it greatly. I will look forward to your continued production 518 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: of fascinating books. And I can't tell you what a 519 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: thrill it was for me personally to be able to 520 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: chat with you. I've spent an amazing number of hours 521 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: with you. You weren't aware of it, but I was 522 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: out there day after day, reading on airplanes, reading in 523 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: cars wherever I had a chance. I work away at 524 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: Bernard Cornwell and here you are. So it's really very exciting. 525 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: And I think we're going to have the largest collection 526 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: of potential purchases we've ever put up on our show page, 527 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: because we're going to list all of your books. And 528 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: it's an amazing achievement on your part. And I will say, 529 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: on behalf of leaders, I am glad that the United 530 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: States government refused to give you a green card, and 531 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: I think it had a second order effect beyond any expectation. 532 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: I'm very glad too. I'm now an American citizen and 533 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: they're still married to the girl who drew me away 534 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: from England, and obviously has worked out pretty well for 535 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: both of you, and it's worked out very well for 536 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: all of us who are in your fan club. Well, 537 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: thank you, mister Speakers, in a privilege and a pleasure 538 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: meeting you. Thank you to my guests. Bernard Carnwell. We'll 539 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 1: have links to his books on our show page at 540 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: Newtsworld dot com Newtsworld is produced by Gingwish three sixty 541 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer who's Garnsey Sloan. Our producer 542 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: is Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 543 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 544 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingridge three sixty. If you've 545 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 546 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 547 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 548 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World consign up for my 549 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Gingridge three sixty dot com 550 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingridge. This is news World