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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and a federal judge. As migrants can

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Speaker 1: sue the company that flew them to Martha's vineyard. We

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Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. True North

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Speaker 1: researches Lisa Graves stops by to talk about the nefarious

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Speaker 1: plan of Republican Attorneys Generals Association. It's called RAGA rhymes

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Speaker 1: with maga. Then we'll talk to legal historian Mary Zigler

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Speaker 1: about the post row apocalypse. But first we have legendary

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Speaker 1: campaign manager and close personal friend of mine, the author

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Speaker 1: of the conspiracy to end America Five ways my old

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Speaker 1: party is driving our democracy to autocracy, the Lincoln Project.

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Speaker 1: Stuart Stevens. Welcome back to Fast Politics. Stuart Stevens.

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Speaker 2: Diis you ask me to party? Roy?

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Speaker 1: You are the best. We're looking down the barrel of

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Speaker 1: this endless general election cycle. The thing that has struck

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Speaker 1: me with all all of this news has been this

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Speaker 1: weird Biden raising all this money and then Trump being jealous.

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Speaker 1: Do Republicans really have a money problem?

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Speaker 3: Trump has a money problem because he needs a lot

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Speaker 3: of money that has nothing to do with the campaign.

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Speaker 3: You know, from the very beginning, if he really knew

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Speaker 3: Republican politics, this is going back to twenty fifteen. The

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Speaker 3: Trump campaign was set up as a large criminal enterprise.

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Speaker 3: And let's don't forget that Trump's campaign manager, deputy campaign manager,

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Speaker 3: national security advisor, foreign policy advisor, lawyer, all of those

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Speaker 3: are now felons. So that was how it started, and

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Speaker 3: it didn't improve. And he has never been interested in

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Speaker 3: building the party at all. It's why there's sort of

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Speaker 3: an ad suicide pack that the party has entered into

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Speaker 3: with Trump. I mean, they literally are out in the

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Speaker 3: jungle drinking the kool aid. So he's killed much of

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Speaker 3: the apparatus of the RNC, and I you know, he

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Speaker 3: has a small donor base, but I don't think that

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Speaker 3: he is going to raise the kind of money that

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Speaker 3: the president is. I think it's harder to say no

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Speaker 3: to the prosident the United States than a guy who

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Speaker 3: is under indictment in four different jurisdictions and is having

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Speaker 3: trouble making bail.

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Speaker 1: Yes, though he did make bail.

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Speaker 2: It did make bail.

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Speaker 1: He did get the bond he needed one hundred and

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Speaker 1: seventy five million dollar bond. Can I ask you? It

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Speaker 1: does seem like there are a number of opportunities to

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Speaker 1: influence trade in Trump world, like, for example, right, I

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Speaker 1: mean you have the bonds, right, you could be one

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Speaker 1: of the people who gave him a bond. You could

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Speaker 1: be an investor in the Donald Trump spack, right, which

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Speaker 1: is locked up so Trumps can't sell a stock. If

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Speaker 1: you buy into that spack, you could be giving Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump money essentially. Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, this has been a reality of Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: from the very beginning. You know, Craig Unger wrote a

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Speaker 3: great book about his rushing connections to go back long

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Speaker 3: before the campaign. Think that we talk about this enough, boy.

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Speaker 3: In twenty sixteen, Russians tried to elect Donald Trump. There

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Speaker 3: is no disagreement over this. Every intelligence agency and the

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Speaker 3: Republican led Senate Intelligence Committee agrees that they tried to

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Speaker 3: elect Donald Trump. Well, they did elect Donald Trump. What

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Speaker 3: did they get? Well, as it turned out, they got

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Speaker 3: a lot. And we now have what was the most

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Speaker 3: consistent element of anti Soviet Union standing up the Russia

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Speaker 3: part of American politics was the conservative part of the

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Speaker 3: Repoking Party, and that has now become the propute and

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Speaker 3: part of the Repokan Party and these Russian connections for Trump,

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Speaker 3: you know, the people that were buying condos and Trump

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Speaker 3: towers and these other places. He's always been a huge

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Speaker 3: conflict of interest guy. And let's don't forget you know,

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Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, and this still blows my mind, Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump went around the country saying, no one's going to

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Speaker 3: holle me because I'm founding my own campaign. So then

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Speaker 3: if you went to his website, prominently featured was a

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Speaker 3: donate button. So I mean, it's always been just a sham.

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Speaker 3: There are one hundred contacts, over one hundred contacts with

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Speaker 3: Russians in the sixteen campaign. You can ask anybody wh's

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Speaker 3: worked in a democratic Republican campaign, what would you do

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Speaker 3: if a hostin foreign power tried to get in touch

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Speaker 3: to the campaign? Do you call the FBI, you tell

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Speaker 3: the campaign lawyer. It's just unimaginable. And this has now

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Speaker 3: been normalized by the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: Right, so let me ask you as we're in this

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Speaker 1: world today. There was a piece of the Times about

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Speaker 1: Chinese influence, right, so if the Chinese wanting to get

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Speaker 1: involved in election medaling, we had Russia in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: we have tech companies that seem completely uninterested in doing

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Speaker 1: anything to prevent it. First of all, why do China

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Speaker 1: and Russia want Trump to win? I mean, I sort

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Speaker 1: of understand Russia because he loves Putin, but China he

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Speaker 1: wants to do all these tariffs. I mean, what does

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Speaker 1: China just think that America in chaos is a win?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what do you think the endgame there is?

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Speaker 3: I think a weakened America helps China across the board,

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Speaker 3: and there is no question that an isolation is too

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Speaker 3: weaker America will be the reality of Donald Trump's president

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Speaker 3: of the United States. Donald Trump is the most easily

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Speaker 3: to manipulate human being in American politics.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's the dog that if you pet them,

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Speaker 2: he'll follow you home. And the Chinese know this.

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Speaker 3: So for him versus Joe Biden, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: this is one of the interesting shifts that's happened here.

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Speaker 3: There was a time, if you go back to sixties

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Speaker 3: early seventies, when the Democratic Party had a strong call

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Speaker 3: it strengthen foreign policy elements, Scoop Jackson all of that.

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Speaker 3: There is an opportunity here for Democrats to reclaim that

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Speaker 3: I mean, who was it who went to Taiwan. Nancy

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Speaker 3: Pelosi went to Taiwan, and it is a repositioning that

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Speaker 3: I think could have generational impact if Democrats can embrace

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Speaker 3: it and deal with their own internal conflicts.

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Speaker 2: That helped the Democratic Party become the.

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Speaker 3: Party of strength and foreign policy, which it certainly is now.

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Speaker 1: So many of these policies is Republican policies suck, right,

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Speaker 1: like the few ones that were right, I mean, besides

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Speaker 1: the lower taxes, which I think a live rich people

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Speaker 1: really like. Most these policies are just terrible, right, and

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Speaker 1: they're not even popular, like banning abortion, States rights, just kidding,

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Speaker 1: not states rights? No rights. Can you use a Comstock

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Speaker 1: Act to make it so you can't send metha pristone

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Speaker 1: in the mail? Going to make it so you can't

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Speaker 1: you know, just I mean endless? You know, regulations, you

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Speaker 1: can't teach kids about certain books, no vaccines. Who want

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Speaker 1: to regulate to have you bring back polio?

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Speaker 2: I mean, who is this for a small percentage of

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Speaker 2: the country.

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Speaker 3: I am of the opinion that commnsional wisdom is that

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Speaker 3: this campaign is going to come down to four hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand people and you know, four maybe five states. You know,

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Speaker 3: that's probably right. I mean, the convinsional wisdom is often right.

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Speaker 3: I think there's another chance here, and that is that

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Speaker 3: you know, around October twentieth or something, that Trump campaign

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Speaker 3: could just begin to collapse the same way to Carter

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Speaker 3: cam Pa began to collapse at that time in nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 3: There is no policy that people like. You know, one

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Speaker 3: of my mentors in politics said, you know, sooner or later,

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Speaker 3: you've got to be for stuff that people like. And

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Speaker 3: this is a fervent base. That is an extremist movement.

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Speaker 3: So what is the thing about extremist movements is they

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Speaker 3: always become more extreme. There's not like a well immoderate

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Speaker 3: wing of the Red Guard the demand stronger purity test.

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Speaker 3: We've gone from at least saying we were a big

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Speaker 3: tent party to saying they don't want they don't want

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Speaker 3: anybody that doesn't agree with Donald Trump. The bargain that

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Speaker 3: you have to make with yourself and your values to

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Speaker 3: be for Donald Trump keeps getting steeper and steeper. And

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Speaker 3: when you saw this in the primaries, that bargain sort

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Speaker 3: of a threshold thing was you had to believe that

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Speaker 3: you didn't live in a democracy because you had to

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Speaker 3: believe that Donald Trump really should be pres the United States,

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Speaker 3: which means we don't live in democracy, and that was

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Speaker 3: overwhelming the majority of the supporters. Now, most people don't

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Speaker 3: believe that. Those people think that we actually have a

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Speaker 3: legal government. I think that what has happened is because

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Speaker 3: these polls show that Trump is ahead. I think if

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Speaker 3: you're sitting in a room with Donald Trump, and you know,

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Speaker 3: there's some smart people there, like chrislas Adeta, and they're saying,

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Speaker 3: you need to appeel more to mainstream, you sell ya

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Speaker 3: why I'm winning now, right, I'm not going.

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Speaker 2: To do it.

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Speaker 3: And he loves the crowds, right, It's part of the

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Speaker 3: reason he's so manipultaal by farm agents.

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Speaker 2: These crowds don't represent America.

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Speaker 3: And he gets up there and he says, you know,

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Speaker 3: crazy stuff, but it's really not crazy, and they love it,

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Speaker 3: and so it keeps getting deeper and deeper and the party.

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Speaker 3: You know, in our system, political parties should form a

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Speaker 3: circuit breaker function, and the Republican Party never pulled a

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Speaker 3: circuit breaker on Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Democratic Party pulled the circuit breaker on George.

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Speaker 3: Wallace eventually threw him out and he ended up running

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Speaker 3: as an independent. The Republican Party didn't do it, and

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Speaker 3: now it's a wholly owned subsidiary of Trump Inc.

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Speaker 1: This is this incredible Senate map for Republicans, sort of

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Speaker 1: a once in a twenty year map that where they

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Speaker 1: could really change the director of the Senate when it's

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Speaker 1: back and their candidates suck too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to ask yourself how many of these

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Speaker 3: Senate races are going to overperform the top of the

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Speaker 3: ticket on the Republican side.

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Speaker 2: Not a lot.

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Speaker 3: I just keep going back to what is the policy

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Speaker 3: that people afford that you get with Donald Trump? Usually

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Speaker 3: in a campaign you say, okay, you get me, and

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Speaker 3: you get this. He's going to settle the score. It's

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Speaker 3: the final battle. It's about retribution. He's going to build

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Speaker 3: these camps down on the border and deport lots of people.

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Speaker 3: People can walk around feeling angry about the idea of

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Speaker 3: a leal immigrants, idea of the southern borders. It's not

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Speaker 3: really affecting your life. And the button has an extraordinary

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Speaker 3: campaign administration really has an extraordinary record of ITCHI even

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Speaker 3: that does affect people's life. You know, if you're now

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Speaker 3: paying thirty five bucks for insulin instead of whatever you

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Speaker 3: were paying before. That is more relevant to your life

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Speaker 3: than some image of caravan coming up to the southern border.

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Speaker 3: This infrastructure stuff, it's the largest public works project in

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Speaker 3: the history of the country. The chip stuff, These are

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Speaker 3: all all big things that Biden managed to get passed,

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Speaker 3: a sort of extraordinary managent to get passed, given the

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Speaker 3: dynamics of our time and the key element axis that

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Speaker 3: this campaign has to drive. For the Biden campaign, Biden

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Speaker 3: has to be for the future and Trump has to

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Speaker 3: represent the past. And how does the oldest president do

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Speaker 3: that well by proposing ideas that affect people in the future,

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Speaker 3: that will make your life positive. And you know, traditionally

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Speaker 3: an American pology, it's the most optimistic candidate wins. We

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Speaker 3: very rarely elect a candidate who is a Neil list

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Speaker 3: or things that things are going to get worse. That

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Speaker 3: is the essence of the Trump campaign. And listen, I

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Speaker 3: just if you have not gone on YouTube and watched

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Speaker 3: Trump's announcement in Waco until you see that thing IM

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Speaker 3: reading about it is one thing, but I made myself

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Speaker 3: go watch it for this last book I wrote, it

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Speaker 3: is an extraordinary moment that if Donald Trump wins this

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Speaker 3: race that's going to be looked at, I think as

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Speaker 3: a turning part in American history. It's a declaration of

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Speaker 3: war against the United States as we know it today.

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Speaker 1: Right the polling again, I don't necessarily the polls, but

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Speaker 1: they are really tight. There are certainly a number of

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Speaker 1: worries in this campaign between Israel stuff. Voters hate that,

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Speaker 1: or at least a lot of young voters hate that.

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Speaker 1: You've got RFK Junior supporting Trump's insane rhetorick that Biden

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Speaker 1: is anti Democratic because of his COVID tweets not being

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Speaker 1: allowed to stay. Do you think these are real threats?

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Speaker 1: Do you think these are exaggerated threats?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Look, I mean when I worked in presidential campaigns, people

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Speaker 3: would say are you worried about? I would stop them

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Speaker 3: there and say yes, because whatever it was you're worried about,

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Speaker 3: that's what you're supposed to do. So there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of very troubling things. Biden's best group in twenty

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Speaker 3: we're younger voters. He won them by double digits. That

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Speaker 3: is obviously a cross pressure. Now with the war between

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Speaker 3: Israel and Amas, he needs to get a higher percentage

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Speaker 3: of Hispanic votes than he's getting now there's lots of problems,

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Speaker 3: but you know, at the end of the day, literally

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day, I think the question

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Speaker 3: you always ask yourself is would I rather be my

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Speaker 3: guy or the other guy?

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Speaker 2: And I'd rather be the Biden campaign. Now, does that

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Speaker 2: mean you're going to win? No?

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Speaker 1: Tell me why.

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Speaker 3: Your problems compared to the other guys or his problems

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Speaker 3: are monumentally more when he's under indictment. He is running

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Speaker 3: as a candidate of anger. Those candidates rarely win. He

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Speaker 3: has surrounded himself with people who who are the people

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Speaker 3: you like in the Republican Party today?

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Speaker 2: If people like Mike Johnson, I don't think so, seems

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Speaker 2: like this weird little guy. So who's the people you like?

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Speaker 3: There's really nobody out there. Who are you gonna put

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Speaker 3: out there as surrogates? And you know, the economy is

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Speaker 3: getting better, which helps. If you read the book The

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Speaker 3: Last Politician A fact for about Biden, there's a phrase

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Speaker 3: that he keeps using the recurs in the book, don't

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Speaker 3: bet against America, which is a very Biden phase.

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Speaker 2: And I actually that's how I feel about the campaign.

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Speaker 2: Biden is more in the American mainstream. He is a

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Speaker 2: candidate who is optimistic. He's not a hater, he's not

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Speaker 2: a cruel man. And you look around the country, most

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Speaker 2: of the role models that we look to in our

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Speaker 2: life are more like Biden than Trump. Right, And how

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Speaker 2: many coaches, teachers, boy scout girl Scout leaders act like

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump? Not many?

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Speaker 3: And you wouldn't tolerate it. And the Republican Party has

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Speaker 3: tolerated this and sort of normalized it. But I think

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Speaker 3: that there's a limit to how that's normalized. I think

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Speaker 3: Biden has a better story to tell. I would expect

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Speaker 3: that Biden's going to be behind until the convention. If

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Speaker 3: I was a Biden campaign, I kind of want to

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Speaker 3: be up behind until the convention because I think there's

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Speaker 3: a great comeback story here, and you don't want that

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Speaker 3: comeback story to begin too soon. Come October fifteenth, Are

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Speaker 3: people really going to be looking at four years of

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump and want Donald Trump in your face and

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Speaker 3: right now to say that you're for Donald Trump. There's

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Speaker 3: no penalty to you could be a Muslim voter somewhere, Sai.

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Speaker 2: I don't like that. You know, I'm mad at Biden.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to vote for Trump.

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Speaker 3: He come around and he goes, you're really going to

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Speaker 3: go for the guy that wanted to ban Muslims, right?

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Speaker 2: So I think the same with the younger voters.

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Speaker 3: Do you really want somebody who clearly wants a national

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Speaker 3: banner on abortion?

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 3: So, you know, I think the Republican Party is basically

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Speaker 3: at war with the modern world.

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Speaker 2: They're mad at everybody.

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Speaker 3: They're mad at Disney, they're mad at the NFL, they're

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Speaker 3: mad at Nike.

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Speaker 2: And that's just a weird place to be.

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Speaker 3: The NFL's wildly popular, Disney's wildly popular, Nike self, you know,

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Speaker 3: billions of dollars. They got a war with Nascar because

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Speaker 3: Nascar banned the Confederate flag. You're in a culture war

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Speaker 3: with Nascar, right, how's that working out? There's gonna be

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Speaker 3: a lot of bad days for the Bidon campaign. There

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Speaker 3: always are. I think it's impossible to run for president

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Speaker 3: and not be humiliated. It's a question of how you

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Speaker 3: deal with that humiliation. And there's a resiliency to the

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Speaker 3: campaign that I admire. I'm gonna admire the Biden campaign operation.

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Speaker 3: It's very difficult to beat an incumbent president and they

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Speaker 3: did it. And particularly now that we're out of the

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Speaker 3: federal funding system where both kendidates get the same amount

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Speaker 3: of money. The last time an incumbent president lost, he

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Speaker 3: wasn't in the federal funding system. With Herbert Hoover before

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump, we had a bad year. Look, I think

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Speaker 3: the way to wake up in this if you're on

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Speaker 3: the side of democracy and you're on the side of America,

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Speaker 3: is to wake up every day scared to death. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's what we do in the Linking Project and act

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Speaker 3: like that. But I think you should walk with confidence.

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Speaker 3: And if I ran the Democratic Party, that's a message

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Speaker 3: I would deliver. I would say, there are more of

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Speaker 3: us than the r of them. Walk with confidence, get

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Speaker 3: some swagger. We're right there wrong, act like it, and

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Speaker 3: I think that that's the way you go out and

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Speaker 3: you just take this thing.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Stuart.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Rollie.

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Speaker 1: Lisa Graves is the founder of the investigative watchdog group

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Speaker 1: True North Research. Welcome to Fast Politics, Lisa.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me on. It's a

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Speaker 4: joy to be on your show. I'm a longtime Fanily.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, well, I need to tell the story

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Speaker 1: of how I decided to have you on. Dahlia is

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Speaker 1: one of the greats and she has a podcast called

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Speaker 1: Amakus and it is one of those podcasts I listen

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Speaker 1: to certain podcasts like to sort of sound smarter than

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Speaker 1: I am, and they tend to be legal podcasts because

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Speaker 1: I have a very short attention span, so the legal

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Speaker 1: stuff I can never maybe read through get through it

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Speaker 1: quickly enough, for you know, my reading comprehension is a

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Speaker 1: little spotty. So I was listening to it, and I

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Speaker 1: was listening to you, and I was thinking to myself,

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Speaker 1: holy shit, this is big and it's important. You're here

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Speaker 1: to talk to us about the Republican Attorneys General and

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Speaker 1: it's RAGA is the shorthand for it. I'm hoping you

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Speaker 1: could tell our listeners sort of how you got here.

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Speaker 4: Sure well, And I'm a huge fan of Dahlia's as well.

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Speaker 4: These are some of them must listen to podcasts. But

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Speaker 4: she had me on to talk about RAGA and RAGA is,

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Speaker 4: as you said, the Republican Attorney's General Association. So it's

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Speaker 4: a way for them to raise money from a range

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Speaker 4: of sources and an amount that for many of them,

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Speaker 4: they could not raise that money directly for their own campaigns,

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Speaker 4: and so it's really a pay to play operation for

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Speaker 4: those who want to have access to the top law

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Speaker 4: enforcement officers in each state. So how I got into

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Speaker 4: this is that back about twenty years ago, when I

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Speaker 4: was a chief counselor for nominations for the Senate Judiciary Committee,

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Speaker 4: I was working there handling nominations and we had a

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Speaker 4: whistleblower who came forward from within RAGA, and she had

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Speaker 4: the call records, which are the records that the AGS

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Speaker 4: were using to solicit funds for RAGA. Then RAGA would

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Speaker 4: spend that money on the campaigns of those Republican attorneys general.

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Speaker 4: And the way it worked was that for a number

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Speaker 4: of these ags, they could not solicit from corporations or

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Speaker 4: for sources that big for their own campaigns with campaign

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Speaker 4: finance laws and their states, and so RAGA was a

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Speaker 4: way around that, and so it was a big pay

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Speaker 4: to play operation.

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Speaker 1: So raga's basically functions as a super pack right.

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Speaker 4: In a way, it's a five to two seven organization,

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Speaker 4: but that's that's sort of how it operates. It's all

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Speaker 4: political and it helps them with their races, but it

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Speaker 4: also helps organize events with their major donors, right, you know,

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Speaker 4: to shape policy, particularly policy against environmental regulations against regulating tobacco,

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Speaker 4: against regulating a number of things that people want regulated.

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Speaker 1: For example, Yes, RAGA didn't come to my attention until

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Speaker 1: after Donald Trump lost his reelection and they started getting

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Speaker 1: involved in the efforts to over turn the election, which

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Speaker 1: is so insane. These are Republican attorneys general, so talk

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Speaker 1: to us about their sort of how they got involved

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Speaker 1: in the twenty twenty lead up to January sixth and

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Speaker 1: the legacy there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was generally shocking, even for RAGA. They have

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Speaker 4: this arm called the Rule of Law of Defense Fund ROLDF,

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Speaker 4: and it was promoting the January sixth events on the mall,

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Speaker 4: the ones where Trump said come it will be wild.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was actually doing robo calls urging people

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Speaker 4: to go to the mall that day. It was basically

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Speaker 4: advancing Trump's big lie, which I call the big lucrative

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Speaker 4: lie because it raises so much money. But basically, this

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Speaker 4: group that is constituted of the top law of course

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Speaker 4: an officers in several states that claims to be devoted

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Speaker 4: to the rule of law was actively promoting people to

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Speaker 4: go to that event. And then after that came out

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Speaker 4: their role in trying to get people to go, they

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Speaker 4: disavowed that activity. The staff left, but it didn't really

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Speaker 4: change anything because in fact, many of those state ags

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Speaker 4: had been actively trying to stop the certification of the

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Speaker 4: election and continue to back Donald Trump at basically every turn.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about sort of who the kind of

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Speaker 1: biggest offenders in this group are.

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Speaker 4: Well. Greg Abbott, who is the Attorney General of Texas,

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Speaker 4: is a significant part of RAGA. You also have Jonathan

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Speaker 4: Scrametti from Tennessee who has been actively trying to intimidate

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Speaker 4: the DC Attorney General who's investigating Leonard Leo. And that's

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Speaker 4: significant because Leonard Leo his network is the biggest funder

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Speaker 4: of RAGA over the past ten years since it was

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Speaker 4: created as a separate entity separate from RSLC, And so

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Speaker 4: you have state attorneys general coming in to try to

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Speaker 4: block the investigation of their biggest benefactor. That certainly stinks.

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Speaker 4: And it's not just Scrimetti, it's also Alexander Mairez who

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Speaker 4: is the Attorney General of Virginia, who is also part

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Speaker 4: of this effort to impede the investigation of Leonard Leo.

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Speaker 4: And Mayor's for quite a while was in business with

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Speaker 4: Garry Marx, who is one of the key leaders of

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Speaker 4: part of Leo's nonprofit network, which included Digital Crisis Network

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Speaker 4: and Judicial Education Project.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting to me because, like, you expect this

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Speaker 1: from a state like Texas, right they are having all

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Speaker 1: sorts of their republican state legislature is fighting against their

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Speaker 1: Republican state legislature right now, right, I mean, they're a

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Speaker 1: mass You expect that, and you even expected from Tennessee

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Speaker 1: because it's so red, and you know, you expect these

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Speaker 1: sort of very red states to have that kind of corruption.

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Speaker 1: But Virginia is surprised to may well.

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Speaker 4: It is a state that has certainly gone blue and

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Speaker 4: red and has a Republican governor, as you and your

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Speaker 4: listeners know, and when that happens, they have had a

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Speaker 4: number of really right wing appointees in the virgin And

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Speaker 4: governor's administration and so or the election related to that

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Speaker 4: with Maras and so in that sense, it's not a

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Speaker 4: surprise because when they rule, they tend to rule and

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Speaker 4: do in my view, rule from an extreme position, regardless

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Speaker 4: of the mandate, regardless of whether the population might be

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Speaker 4: purple or you know, tend toward blue in you know,

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Speaker 4: the popular color parlance for politics. But it's really a

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Speaker 4: function of the fact that RAGA is such a powerful

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Speaker 4: entity for helping these state law enforcement officers get elected

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Speaker 4: and stay elected. And so it's more a matter of power,

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Speaker 4: I suppose, although I mean it is about policy, but

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Speaker 4: it's about power and then wielding it. And so Virginia,

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Speaker 4: you know, I do think it's significant. I suspect that

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Speaker 4: a lot of people who live in Virginia would not

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Speaker 4: be supportive of some of the things that the Attorney

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Speaker 4: general there is. But the fact is is that he

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Speaker 4: has power, and he's holding that power in concert with

436
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 4: these other Republican ags who are also doing things like

437
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 4: trying to intimidate the state of Maine for its efforts

438
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 4: to protect people's right to access abortion and parents' right

439
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 4: to help their children get gender affirming care. And so

440
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 4: you recently, in the past week or so, had another

441
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 4: letter from some of these state RAGA ags basically telling

442
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 4: Maine that they should not be allowing people in their

443
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 4: state to exercise freedom.

444
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: In my opinion, yeah, I mean, it's so interesting because

445
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 1: it is like this big lie. There are obviously a

446
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 1: number of big lies here, but the lie, my favorite,

447
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 1: is that Republicans are like this is a state issue, right,

448
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: states rights issue. They're going to kick abortion back to

449
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: the states. Right. That was the lie, and here we

450
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: are with them trying to control what happens in Maine,

451
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: which obviously so it's not. I'm wondering we talk about

452
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: attorneys generals. They are all elected or some are elected.

453
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: Somewhere pointed, is it all standard? How did this organization

454
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: get so out of control?

455
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 4: Well, they are elected, and I think part of it

456
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,959
Speaker 4: has just been allowing themselves are basically being designed to

457
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 4: do the bidding of their sort of highest bidders. There's

458
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 4: price sheets that we've obtained over the years through open

459
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 4: records requests, and the price sheets say something like, you know,

460
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 4: if you give us ten thousand dollars or fifty thousand dollars,

461
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 4: you get X number of tickets to this event or

462
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 4: that event, you get to have a panel. And then

463
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 4: they have at the top of that, you know, if

464
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 4: you give two hundred thousand dollars or more, call us

465
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 4: you good. And guess who gives two hundred thousand dollars

466
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 4: or more. It's Leonard Leo's network. He's directed more than

467
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 4: twenty million dollars to RAGA over the past decade that

468
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 4: exceeds coke industries meant other major corporations who you would

469
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 4: think might give more, but in fact it's Leonard Leo,

470
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 4: and so I think the reason why they're so out

471
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 4: of control, the reason why there's this massive policy divergence

472
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 4: and this aggression by the state attorney general toward other states,

473
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 4: is because they're advancing Leo's agenda, which is one that

474
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 4: is venmily opposed to abortion access. Who claim to support

475
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 4: state rights actually think that their state law should be

476
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 4: applied extra territorially. Does reveal the lie, because it's quite

477
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 4: extraordinary to see some of the things we've been seeing

478
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 4: happen in Texas, where at one point Abbott was threatening

479
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 4: a woman whose doctor said that she could not go

480
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 4: forward with this pregnancy and she needed to have an abortion,

481
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 4: threatening anyone who would help her get that abortion. And

482
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 4: so this extraterritoriality thing is quite extraordinary and it's new.

483
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 4: I don't think it's really ever happened in US history.

484
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 4: I've looked for other examples of interstate fights of this

485
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 4: nature and have seen nothing like what we've seen. But

486
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: we're seeing it because you have a training around. It's

487
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 4: not just that they're beholding to Leonard Leo in part

488
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 4: because of his massive funding of the operation that helps

489
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 4: fuel their elections. It's because he's also someone who if

490
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 4: they're aligned with him, they could get appointed to the

491
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 4: Supreme Court or lower courts or state supreme courts, and

492
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 4: so it's part of their pathway, the pipeline of power

493
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 4: that Leonard Leo has built right.

494
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: And Leonard Leo heat figures in a lot these stories

495
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: about how the judiciary is used to enact more conservative

496
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: laws and undermine the rights of others and also people

497
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: who have less When you read about the Supreme Court

498
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: and how this court became so conservative, he's very much

499
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: a fixture and a lot of those stories. I'm hoping

500
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: you could explain to us what happened after the twenty

501
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: twenty election, that there were a few moments when this

502
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 1: group kind of almost got frozen out, and then what

503
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: happened from there.

504
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: Well, so after Documented, which is a group I co founded,

505
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 4: but I wasn't working with them at the time, found

506
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 4: the robocalls, the documentation that Raga's Rule of a Lot

507
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 4: of Defense Fund was actively supporting the January sixth events,

508
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 4: the precursor to the violent insurrection. There was outcry and

509
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 4: there were corporations that basically said they weren't going to

510
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 4: fund Rolled Out. Now that's similar across the board. There

511
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 4: were corporations that said they weren't going to fund certain

512
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 4: Republican activity. So there was a widespread action, you know,

513
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 4: among the American people, most people to what they saw

514
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 4: with their own eyes about the violence that Trump unleashed,

515
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 4: his incitement, the groups that were involved, the politicians that

516
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 4: were involved, and so there was I would say at

517
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 4: least three months of disdain or you know, active disavowing

518
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 4: by a number of corporations, not just of RAGA and

519
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 4: rolled AFT, but of other components of what happened on

520
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 4: January sixth, and also the broader election denial. And then

521
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 4: it faded. I think it was a big story about

522
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 4: a year or so ago about the number of corporations

523
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 4: that basically went back to the usual funding of a

524
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 4: number of these groups, including RAGA, And so there was

525
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 4: a moment of maybe awakening and fear of public repercussions

526
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 4: for supporting such groups or such politicians, and then things

527
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 4: sort of returned to business as usual as the Republican

528
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 4: circled the wagons and basically, for example, locked the impeachment

529
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 4: of Donald Trump even though it was a majority vote,

530
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 4: there wasn't a super majority vote for that impeachment trial

531
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 4: in the Senate. They started peddling very hard this notion

532
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 4: that basically nothing he did do anything wrong and this

533
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 4: was just free speech. This was in accordance with the

534
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 4: claims by Trump that this was Antifa, it wasn't his followers.

535
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 4: So there was a whole massive disinformation campaign and ultimately

536
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 4: they managed to I think secure a substantial majority of

537
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 4: Republicans to accept that lie or promote that lie, and

538
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 4: that has continued to be part of the massive distortion,

539
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 4: including their reaction to the January sixth Committee and its

540
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 4: extraordinary findings of all the key players in this effort

541
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 4: to subvert our election.

542
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 1: These are like the kind of quiet things that happened

543
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: behind the scenes that got us to Trump, right. They're

544
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: kind of the places where you know, this is the

545
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: quiet groundwork that set up this Supreme Court that's so

546
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: conservative now that got us the overturning of roby Way

547
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: that got us SBA. These are the things in Texas.

548
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: Obviously Centibilite, the one that overturned Row before Roe was overturned.

549
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: I feel like these are the sort of quay machinations.

550
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: He's sort of the air apparent to the Koch brothers.

551
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: Is that right? And tell us a little more about

552
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: Leonard Leo if you can.

553
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 4: Well, it is part of a longer term effort that

554
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 4: we've seen really since the election of Barack Obama. You

555
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 4: had this amazing sort of populist response electing Barack Obama,

556
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 4: and in the midst of the financial meltdown that began

557
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 4: under George W. Bush, and there was a moment where

558
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 4: there were headlines, you know, the Republican Party is losing,

559
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 4: they've lost their way. They're going to try to broaden

560
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 4: their appeal, and that was you know, really pushed back

561
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 4: very quickly because suddenly in the spring of two thousand

562
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 4: and nine, they basically launched the Tea Party. They claimed

563
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 4: it was an organic event, but this superstructure infrastructure, as

564
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 4: Jane Mayer and others have documented, was really supported and

565
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: supplied by the Coke money. Charles Coke, the you know

566
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 4: billionaire from Kansas who runs a you know, big oil conglomerate,

567
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: and his infrastructure to really support give a length and distance,

568
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 4: give talking points to this Tea Party effort. That Tea

569
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 4: Party effort was in essence of rebranding of the Republican

570
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 4: Party that had lost its brand in some ways under

571
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 4: the end or the denlopment of Bush. That Tea Party

572
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 4: effort was one that itself was built on a lie,

573
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 4: the idea that Barack Obama was responsible for tax policy,

574
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 4: you know, three months into his presidency, or even the

575
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 4: financial crisis. It was a way to basically redirect the

576
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 4: focus from Wall Street, for example, and the pain people

577
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 4: were suffering with the foreclosures, et cetera, toward this president

578
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: and blaming the government. And then they turned that into

579
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: an attack on efforts by the obamaistration to bride people

580
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 4: access to healthcare. So there was just an extraordinary fight

581
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 4: against the Affordable Care Act, and Coke really helped fuel

582
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 4: that fight. And Leo was helping in his own way

583
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 4: as well, in terms of his efforts to help get

584
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 4: briefs submitted to the Supreme Court amicist briefs by Republican Senators,

585
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: by Republican ags attacking the Affordable Care Act using some

586
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 4: of these groups that he's closely aligned with for these

587
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 4: many years. And so they've been operating in tandem. You

588
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: can see that relationship in what happened after antoninsk Glia

589
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 4: died suddenly in February of twenty sixteen, where Leo comes

590
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 4: together with Coke to rebrand the George Mason University of

591
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 4: Public University's law school as the Antoninisklia Law School. And

592
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 4: the money that came in was ten million dollars from

593
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 4: Coke and then twenty million dollars from an anonymous donor

594
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 4: who we now and with the good work of Uncoke,

595
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 4: my campus at the time, connected the dots to show

596
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 4: that that was Barry Side, who became very famous a

597
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: few years ago, two years ago now when we learned

598
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 4: that he had actually given control of a one point

599
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 4: six billion dollar fortune, a one point six billion dollar

600
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 4: trust to Leonard Leo and so Coke sent out materials

601
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: during the Trump administration talking about how this was great

602
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 4: for their policy. They were going to get a once

603
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 4: in a generation tax cut, they were going to move

604
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 4: a lot of deregulation, and the third prong was that

605
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 4: they were going to support this effort to pack the court. Basically,

606
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 4: in their view or their words, they were going to

607
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 4: install rule of law judges to the court. That was

608
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 4: the claimed rule of law judges. You see this phrase again.

609
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 4: They were going to work with the Federal Society and

610
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 4: Leonard Leo to do so. And so this has been

611
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 4: you know, a cooperative joint effort, joint agenda, and that

612
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 4: agenda has has resulted in a Supreme Court that has

613
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 4: voluntarily taken on cases that some of which seemed mood

614
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 4: at the time, like the idea that they're going to

615
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 4: take up the clean Power Plan from the obaministration, which

616
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 4: was never implemented. They took that case up in twenty

617
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 4: twenty one twenty two, issued a decision in West Virginia

618
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 4: versus EPA that was spearheaded by one of.

619
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: The genial Sorry sorry, sorry, Yeah, that's a decision that

620
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: haunts me. That is it air pollution or watervolution.

621
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 4: Air pollution and also and also just to redirect efforts

622
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 4: to have more clean energy in order to mitigate climate change.

623
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 4: And who was at the helm of that but someone

624
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 4: who Leo's groups had really groomed, Patrick Morrissey, the Attorney

625
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 4: General West Virginia. What were they aiming for? Coke's wish

626
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 4: list on this thing called the Major Questions doctrine, which

627
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 4: is an invention doesn't exist, not part of the Constitution,

628
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 4: but now has been embraced by these appointees to advance

629
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 4: cokes agenda, to have a way to assail environmental regulations.

630
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 4: And now we're here again with these cases, the Relentless

631
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 4: Case and Low or Bright Case, which are designed to

632
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 4: not just deal with major questions that agencies write about,

633
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 4: but basically anything else that allowed judges to set aside

634
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 4: agency expertise on environmental laws and so much more. Again,

635
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 4: this is the unity of the Coke wish List and Leo.

636
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 4: And it's also the case that Coke Industries and the

637
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 4: Coke fortune have funded the Federal Society for many years

638
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 4: as well, so they have a long standing relationship. But now,

639
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 4: in essence, Leo has the control of a billion dollar

640
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 4: fortune in his own right, so he doesn't necessarily need them.

641
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: But they're still aligned, even though you know, they both

642
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: sort of claim that they're not backing Trump, but they're

643
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 4: more than happy to have him in power in order

644
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 4: to accomplish their substantive policy agenda.

645
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,479
Speaker 1: Lisa Graves, we're all going to die. Thank you for

646
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: joining us.

647
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 4: No, No, there's hope and knowledge and I do think

648
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 4: you know, there's so many people who are waking up

649
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 4: and standing up and helping to make a difference. So

650
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 4: you know, there are a lot of people who are

651
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 4: working on addressing this court that's surrounded by this cloud

652
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 4: of corruption. There are a lot of a lot more

653
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 4: people focusing on Leonard Leo and you Molly helping to

654
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 4: bring this to light as well. So I'm hopeful that

655
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 4: we can make progress.

656
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: Mary Ziggler is a legal historian. Mary Zigler, Welcome back

657
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: to Fast Politics.

658
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me back.

659
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: So excited to have you. I think of you as

660
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: like one of the smartest people thinking and writing about

661
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: what's going on right now in our post row healthscape.

662
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: You've been writing about this for a long time and

663
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: thinking about it for a long time. Isn't as bad

664
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: as you thought it would be.

665
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 5: Yes, But I think seeing it actually happen is still surreal. Right,

666
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 5: So if you study it, you're kind of aware of

667
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 5: what could happen and what people are shooting for, and

668
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 5: you know, so in that sense, you could kind of

669
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 5: see it coming, but actually having it happen is still different.

670
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: Today, I was on Morning Joe talking about abortion, Like

671
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: I was talking about like how Florida's moving the Supreme

672
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: Court said that this six week ban can come into effect,

673
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: and it's like the six week ban even though DeSantis

674
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: signed this into law under the cover of night just

675
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: a few months ago. The anti choice movement is like

676
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: light years ahead of the six week ban, right, I mean,

677
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: in Alabama, they're at Glastis's personhood And I see that

678
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: you're writing an academic book for Yale University Press about

679
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: this embryonic personhood fiasco, since you are much more sort

680
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: of read in on the legal side. Was this always

681
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: cooking up with them? And are you shocked at how

682
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: quickly they've gotten here and whatever else you want.

683
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 5: To say, Yeah, I mean they've always been cooking this up. So,

684
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 5: I mean one of the kind of big mistakes I

685
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 5: think a lot of progressives to make and talking about

686
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 5: aborsh is that they they really do believe that personhood

687
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 5: is like a new thing. So you'll see people say

688
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 5: there's this new personhood movement. Reality, I think is that

689
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 5: the anti abortion movement, for the most part, really any

690
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 5: major group of any kind, from the very beginning, has

691
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 5: always been a fetal personhood movement. So this isn't new

692
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 5: in terms of how quickly the movements achieved its objectives,

693
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 5: and well, they haven't. Really, It's more sort of how

694
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 5: quickly they've come humblic with the fact that this is

695
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 5: what this is about. In a way isn't surprising because

696
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 5: I think after Dobbs, after the reversal of the right

697
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 5: to choose abortion, a lot of conservatives, especially social conservatives,

698
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 5: began sort of looking at one another and saying, well,

699
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 5: what are we going to do now right, how are

700
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 5: we going to get people to vote, How are we

701
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 5: going to be keepit people to good money? How are

702
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 5: we going to justify to people that this movement is

703
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 5: worth their time versus some other conservative cause. And the

704
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 5: answer there really was kind of an easy answer, which

705
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 5: is fetal personhood, because that had been really what rallied

706
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 5: most people to the movement in the first place, and

707
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 5: the Alabama Supreme Court's decision I think was obviously really

708
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 5: exciting and alganizing for people who believe that fetuses or

709
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 5: embryoser zegots are persons, because they weren't. I don't think

710
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 5: they were expecting it. Like if you look at who

711
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 5: was involved in that case, it wasn't anybody like major

712
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 5: in the anti porshion movement. It was just random plaintiff's

713
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 5: a joneys, right, So I think they when once that happened,

714
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 5: they got really energized and thought, well, maybe we can

715
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 5: get some action in words, even if voters are decidedly

716
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 5: not interested in this idea of feal person hit.

717
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that. It is incredibly amazingly weird this,

718
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it makes sense if you think

719
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: of the history of Republicans and abortion, right, which is

720
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: that originally, you know, abortion being a religious idea only

721
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: came about in the you know, in the sixties or seventies.

722
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: Before that, you know, it wasn't necessarily tied to religion

723
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: quite the same way it is. I'm sure I have

724
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 1: that wrong, but you know what I mean, it wasn't

725
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: always evangelicals hating abortion quite the same way. Is that right?

726
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: Totally?

727
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: Yeah?

728
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 5: I mean, so the early nineteenth century laws that we

729
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 5: still sometimes saw in the books, that was just doctors

730
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 5: who were mad about a bunch of things. They were

731
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 5: mad that midwives were competing with them. They were mad

732
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 5: that married women were having sex and not having children

733
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 5: all the time. They were mad that immigrants were having

734
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 5: more babies than non immigrants. But they weren't really talking

735
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 5: as much or centrally about religion. And then in the

736
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 5: sixties when they're what's the sort of modern anti abortion

737
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 5: got going?

738
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 4: That was Catholics.

739
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 5: This being a predominantly evangelical Protestant movement was a thing

740
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 5: that didn't happen until, you know, sometime between the eighties

741
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 5: and the nineties.

742
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 4: And when that happened, the movement became.

743
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 5: A lot more comfortable talking about Christianity because it wasn't

744
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 5: just Catholicism, right, and this is there's more anti Catholicism

745
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 5: than there's anti Protestantism. It was easier to say this

746
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 5: about Christianity when not all the Christians were the same

747
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 5: kind of Christian. The kind of modern it's a super

748
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 5: religious cause vision of things came about a while after

749
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 5: the movement got its start.

750
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: When it comes to IBF, IVF is popular. Mike Pence

751
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: admits to have done it, though he says it was

752
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 1: an IVF. They say it is some kind of Christian IVF. Okay,

753
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: but it certainly sounds like IVF. Not Mike mother Mother

754
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: Pens admitted to do it. So is the goal here

755
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: to make IVF just untenable for religious people? I mean,

756
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: is that where these Republicans are going?

757
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 5: And if so, why well, I mean, so, if you

758
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 5: think a fetus or a zygot or an embryo as

759
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 5: a person, you're going to have a problem with IBF. Right,

760
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 5: So you're gonna have a problem with the way IVF

761
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 5: is currently practiced because IVF often involves the creation of

762
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 5: more embryos than are implanted in a given IVF cycle.

763
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 5: And there are, you know, a couple of reasons for that,

764
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 5: including the facts that not everyone's yours IVF cycle is successful.

765
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 5: Obviously sometimes people are planning on having more children. But

766
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 5: in either case, right, they don't like the idea that

767
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 5: embryos are stored. Steve Aiden of Americans United for Life said,

768
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 5: you know, we don't put our children in hold storage indefinitely.

769
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 5: They don't like the idea that embryos are destroyed sometimes,

770
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 5: right if people break up or they don't need the

771
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 5: extra embryos anymore. They don't like the idea that embryos

772
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 5: are donated for research. So if once you kind of

773
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 5: make that step that the embryo is a person, the

774
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 5: way IVF currently works is not going to be okay

775
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 5: with you.

776
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 2: And that's been true.

777
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 5: I think for people in the anti worship movement going

778
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 5: way back to the very beginning of IBF, but now

779
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 5: I think, you know, they just think more is politically possible,

780
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 5: so attacking IBF gradually first, I think by saying, hey, IBF,

781
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 5: it's like underregulated, it's the wild West. We need more

782
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 5: sensible regulation, right.

783
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: That's what they say on the Heritage Foundation website, which

784
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: is like, honestly amazing to me, Like, these are people

785
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: who don't want you to be able to regulate fossil fuels.

786
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: They don't want you to begulate anything except IVF.

787
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 4: Oh pretty much.

788
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so they say that, and then they also

789
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 5: say essentially like you know, if we're taking this whole

790
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 5: person note seriously, we have to be consistent, right, We

791
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 5: can't say, oh, well, an embryo is a person in

792
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 5: context A and not context B. The problem, I think

793
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 5: is again that a lot of evangelicals, you know, don't

794
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 5: believe that right there. There's something similar I think has

795
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 5: happens with Catholics, where there's you know, been church Catholic

796
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 5: church teachings for a long time that IVF is a problem,

797
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 5: and yet lots of Catholics willing to use IBF right.

798
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 5: So I think convincing she Bols to agree with you is,

799
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 5: you know, very different from embarking on a campaign to try.

800
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean just incredible. So now this personhood thing,

801
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: I mean, what do we think Alabama seems like one

802
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: of the things, like with SBA and overturning Road Texas,

803
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: really was in the forefront. Now it feels like Republicans

804
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: have gotten really distracted trying to impeach each other and

805
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: the Republican state.

806
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, that that happens, you know as one does you know.

807
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Ken pax In fiasco. So I feel like

808
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 1: now they've sort of moved on and they're working really

809
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: hard in Alabama at undermining IVF. Would that decision kiv rights,

810
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, signed something to indemnify IVF clinics. So if

811
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: you kill a fetus person, it's not a fetus a

812
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: blastosist person, You're okay because you're doing it in the

813
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: name of making money. I mean, what do you think

814
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: is going on there?

815
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 5: Well, I think Republicans essentially realized that if you're in Alabama,

816
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 5: you can't be opposed to the idea that an embryo

817
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 5: or a blasticist is a person and you can't be

818
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 5: against IVF either. So the fix, the kind of middle

819
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 5: ground was Okay, we know we're gonna let not let

820
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 5: you sue if you know any embryos destroyed during idea,

821
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 5: regardless of how right, regardless of even and whether you

822
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 5: know in scenarios where maybe we think, you know, an

823
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 5: IVF provider did something wrong and maybe should be sued

824
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 5: for something that isn't personhood, but then also didn't say

825
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 5: the Alabama Supreme Court was wrong on personhood, right, They

826
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 5: let that part stand. So I think this was supposed

827
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 5: to be, you know, among other things, kind of a

828
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 5: way for even Republicans in Alabama to stop the bleeding.

829
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 5: We just had an election recently in near Huntsville, where

830
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 5: there's lots of aerospace industry, where a Democrat won a

831
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 5: state election. So this was designed to say, of course,

832
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 5: you know, if you're for IBF, you don't need to

833
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 5: be opposed to Republicans. But if you're for fetal person good,

834
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 5: you also don't need to be angry at rebuttal's against

835
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 5: try to write like pla eate everybody.

836
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think though, that they've really painted

837
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: themselves into a corner hair Basically The goal here is

838
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: to do why right is to make it so you

839
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: can't have IVF. You know, they don't want the morning

840
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: after pill. They don't want iud's right. Because this group

841
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 1: doesn't know much about biology. They've decided iud's or aboord

842
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: fashions or whatever it's called. You're tacking dangerously close here

843
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: to just getting rid of all birth control. And you

844
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: have to wonder, like, when do the American people say like, no, no,

845
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: Like I remember Tipper Gore and porn Like I feel

846
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 1: like there's a moment where Americans are like, no, no now.

847
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: Like we think of ourselves as hypocritical, you know, religious zalads,

848
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: But even for us, this is too far.

849
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think the question the answer is

850
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 5: really after. I mean, I hopefully not after. It's too late.

851
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 5: But Americans have this tendency when it comes to reproductive

852
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 5: rights to basically think that's just not going to happen.

853
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: Right.

854
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 5: That's especially true of younger people, and it's especially true

855
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 5: of people who don't live and have never lived in

856
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 5: Red States.

857
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 4: I say, this is someone who you still live in Florida.

858
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: Like that.

859
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 5: Things people will tell me they just don't believe things

860
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 5: I've seen can happen one. I mean, the Alabama Supreme

861
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 5: Court is a case in point, right, because I don't

862
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 5: think anybody really took this fetal person and thinks seriously

863
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 5: until the court actually took it seriously for them, right,

864
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 5: you're more likely to see the American people say no,

865
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 5: this is way too far once someone has gone even further.

866
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 5: We've already seen this in pulling right that people who

867
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 5: are living under abortion bands are more unhappy with abortion

868
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 5: bands than people who aren't, because they know what it

869
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 5: actually means, right, as opposed to it just sort of

870
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 5: an abstraction. So I think the more of that we see,

871
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 5: the closer we move to any recognition of fetal personhood

872
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 5: that would affect everybody, the more backlash from the American

873
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 5: people we're going to see.

874
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: That's what's going to happen in Florida possibly right, because

875
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: the abortion ban goes into action in a month, and

876
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: so it'll be a six week abortion ban, which basically

877
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: means that you can't get an abortion in the state,

878
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: and then you're going to have a ballot initiative. Right,

879
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: so it's April now, so you'll have a whole summer

880
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: of no abortion and a fall and Florida voters will

881
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: really know what they're voting on.

882
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

883
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And I think Florida voters also get to vote

884
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 5: on the Florida Supreme Court, right, They're voting on that too,

885
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 5: which is a dynamic obviously, you know, different from the

886
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 5: one where you used to with the US Supreme Court,

887
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 5: because you know, if you don't like Samuel Alito, there's

888
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 5: not well, you know, pretty much all you could do.

889
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 5: And I think you could say, but if you are

890
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 5: unhappy with the Florida Supreme Court, they're judges who face

891
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 5: you know, retention elections.

892
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: With the six week ban, this is a big seed

893
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: change for Florida. Right, Florida was always a place where

894
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: you could get an abortion for much bigger window, you know,

895
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: with sort of the sanctuary of the South when it

896
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: came to reproductive health. I mean, the reason that DeSantis

897
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: signed this ban in the dead of night was because

898
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: he wanted to primary Trump, because he knew that if

899
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: you're going to get the evangelicals, you have to have

900
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: a six week ban. Do you think this hurts DeSantis?

901
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he's term limited out, so he can't,

902
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: you know, just keep running it definitely. But I mean,

903
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: do you think like this comes to a place where

904
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: it like actually bites you know, Republicans, people like Rick Scott,

905
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean, or do you think balant initiatives in itself

906
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: are sort of cloistered and don't necessarily connect with what

907
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: regular voters vote for.

908
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it depends, right, So, I mean,

909
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 5: we have evidence pointing both ways. Right, we have the

910
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 5: twenty twenty two mid terms where Democrats did better than expected.

911
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 5: We have state elections, so like in places like Kansas

912
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 5: where voters went for ballot initiaves and then still gave

913
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 5: Republicans majorities or even increased Republican majorities. So the question is,

914
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 5: like how much ticket splitting like that is there going

915
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 5: to be. The good news for turnout is that there

916
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 5: are going to be a lot of younger, you know,

917
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 5: people of reproductive age who you know, may just screen

918
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 5: up not have voted, will be more likely to come

919
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 5: out for the ballot initiative in Florida. Whether that's enough,

920
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 5: because Florida's pretty read, whether that's enough to overcome that,

921
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean, I think this sort of

922
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 5: the way it's been framed recently has been you know

923
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 5: this sort of makes Florida interesting again. I don't know

924
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 5: if it gets you all the way to anything changing,

925
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 5: but it does at least make the question worth considering

926
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 5: versus it sort of being like, gee, who will win Alabama.

927
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 5: It's like no one is going to stay up late

928
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 5: to find that out. We already know, right, And I

929
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 5: think that's still probably true in Florida. But I think

930
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 5: it'll be an interesting litmus test, if nothing else, about

931
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,720
Speaker 5: how much this kind of a reproductive rights ballid initiative

932
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 5: can move the needle when it is on the ballot, right,

933
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 5: And I.

934
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: Mean that's going to be the ten million dollar question

935
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: is can it move the needle. I don't know if

936
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: a Senate is down ballot from that or up ballot

937
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 1: from that. I don't know where all of these things

938
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: occur on the ballot. But really good question and really

939
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: important point. When you see this coming from embryotic personhood,

940
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: do you think they are just Republicans are too far

941
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: gone on this? Now? Clearly this is not popular. I mean,

942
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: do you think they're just banking on the idea they

943
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,439
Speaker 1: could make this popular? No, I don't.

944
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 5: I think there's some elements of that, but I think

945
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 5: there's also efforts to sort of figure out where you

946
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 5: can exercise power where things aren't popular.

947
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: At the moment. That's quartz right.

948
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 5: It's federal courts prom barrel, it's all of state courts

949
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 5: like the ones in Alabama. It's state legislatures where there's

950
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 5: no political competition, where you essentially have single party states.

951
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 5: And it's also increasingly the thinking is through the executive branch,

952
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 5: right because you know, in addition to the Comstock Act

953
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 5: and all the other sort of pals that are on

954
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 5: the table from the Heritage Foundation for Donald Trump if

955
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 5: he's elected, there's also you know, arguments that he could

956
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 5: just start doing personhood executive orders. And the reason for

957
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 5: that again is if Trump's re elected, he's not going

958
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 5: to be able to run for the election, so he

959
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 5: too is sort of not going to be accountable in

960
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 5: the same way. So I think for the most part

961
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 5: you've seen anti aborshin groups sort of trying to pick

962
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 5: those spots, essentially saying, you know, we think this person

963
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 5: put idea is more important than what voters think about it,

964
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 5: and so we're going to try to sort of exercise

965
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 5: power where we can, with or without voters backing us.

966
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: Up.

967
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 1: Mary, Thank you. I hope you'll come back.

968
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I definitely will.

969
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 5: Like we you know, maybe with the Supreme Court, if

970
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 5: not before, maybe when the Supreme Court starts seeing stuff

971
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 5: in June, No, no moment, Jesse Cannon.

972
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: Molly Jong Fast. We got some wild news out of Florida.

973
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: What are you seeing? And it's not just Florida men

974
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: doing wild things.

975
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: For once, marijuana and abortion are going to be on

976
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: the ballot in November. We want abortion available, but it's

977
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: a healthcare issue now Florida voters are going to get

978
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: to vote on it so much too. Ron Desanti's chagrin,

979
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: the fact that voters are actually getting to exercise their democracy.

980
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: Desanta's being upset about that is our moment of buck Ord.

981
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

982
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

983
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

984
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

985
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.