Speaker 1: To one more howl. They don't laugh though the gray
Speaker 1: wolf is in danger. In the nineteen seventies, wolves were
Speaker 1: one of the first species to be protected under the
Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act. Due to population decline in the years
Speaker 1: that followed, Congress removed protections from gray wolves, first in
Speaker 1: the Northern Rocky Mountains, then across the country. By February
Speaker 1: of two, federal protections were restored to wolves and much
Speaker 1: of the contiguous United States, except in the Northern Rocky
Speaker 1: Mountain region, where more than of the killing of wolves occurs.
Speaker 1: I've always been passionate about animals and their welfare, so
Speaker 1: on this episode of my podcast, we're talking about how
Speaker 1: we can help protect the gray wolf and learn more
Speaker 1: about these wonderful creatures. Joining me today or Samantha Atwood,
Speaker 1: co founding member of the hashtag Realist Wolves Campaign, and
Speaker 1: Maggie Howell, executive director of the Wolf Conservation Center right
Speaker 1: here near my home in South Salem, New York. Welcome
Speaker 1: to my podcast, Maggie and Samantha, and it's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you here to talk because wolves are on
Speaker 1: a lot of people's minds right now. Do you know why.
Speaker 1: I hope it's because campaign. Well, I wish it were
Speaker 1: just your campaign, but you should be very thankful that
Speaker 1: Kevin Costner and Yellowstone have brought wolves to the forefront
Speaker 1: of everybody's sort of consciousness. Uh. You know, you watch that.
Speaker 1: You watch the conflict on that show between the conservationists
Speaker 1: who are trying to save the wolves and the wildlife
Speaker 1: in the national parks and all the contiguous properties, and
Speaker 1: then you see the the ranchers who want to kill
Speaker 1: the wolves because they kill the calves and the data.
Speaker 1: But um, but I think we are all kind of thinking.
Speaker 1: All my friends are watching Yellowstone and thinking wolves and
Speaker 1: um and did you put that together or not? Sort of,
Speaker 1: so I have to say, what do you think are
Speaker 1: do you think they're doing a disservice or a service?
Speaker 1: So the wolf population on that show, I think any
Speaker 1: point at which the wolves are becoming part of the
Speaker 1: conversation is a win, right it open. That's what I think.
Speaker 1: That's what I think, And I think that you have
Speaker 1: a chance now and opening a big opening to get
Speaker 1: to all those millions of people that are watching Yellowstone
Speaker 1: season five. So it's it's kind of interesting, it really is. No,
Speaker 1: we really appreciate the opportunity here. Well, Maggie and Samantha, Um,
Speaker 1: tell me what is the hashtag realist Wolves campaign all about? Okay,
Speaker 1: the Releast Wolves campaign is a campaign aimed at restoring
Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act protections to the gray wolf across the
Speaker 1: entire you know, forty lower forty eight states in the
Speaker 1: United States are campaign. We founded in a June shortly
Speaker 1: after there's this really horrible wolf hunt in Wisconsin where
Speaker 1: two eighteen wolves were killed in under sixty hours by
Speaker 1: any means necessary, running them down with a TVs, packs
Speaker 1: of dogs, night hunting, baiting, snaring. What was the reason?
Speaker 1: The reason is, well, Maggie, you want to take that one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know what did they say? Why did they
Speaker 1: go on such a massive hunt? So because wolves have
Speaker 1: been um protected due to illegal battles, have been going
Speaker 1: back and forth over wolf protection, um really across the
Speaker 1: United States. And so when it was actually from a
Speaker 1: President Trump, he's really the exiting kind of speech almost
Speaker 1: out of the office, was to delist wolves nationwide. So
Speaker 1: after protections were lost, um, really, there were some people
Speaker 1: just raring to go for a long time, um to
Speaker 1: kill wolves. And there's a lot of it just based
Speaker 1: on fear and hatred, um, which is really unfortunate. And
Speaker 1: but really what we saw happen, you know, as soon
Speaker 1: as they lost protections is just just how important protections are.
Speaker 1: And uh and really Samanthan mentioned it was like sixty hours,
Speaker 1: um and these are wolves, wolf pups, you know it was.
Speaker 1: But what do you do with a population that exists
Speaker 1: today that carry guns. Why does a regulation stop them
Speaker 1: from killing wolves? It doesn't really does it. One of
Speaker 1: the things we say is legal killing leads to more
Speaker 1: illegal killing, so it emboldens everybody when these protections were lost. Look,
Speaker 1: you can't save every single wolf. Will there be poachers? Yes, However,
Speaker 1: regulation has a massive impact on protecting these species. And
Speaker 1: that's the goal of the campaign, which is actually to
Speaker 1: restore these protections wolves, and to do it in a
Speaker 1: way that's a little bit interesting and out of the box,
Speaker 1: where we're talking to the public, we're putting pressure on
Speaker 1: public officials. We're going about this in a little bit
Speaker 1: of a different way, because interestingly enough, this issue until
Speaker 1: recently has really flown under the radar in my opinion.
Speaker 1: You know, you love your dog, you love nature. There's
Speaker 1: only fewer than six thousand wolves left in the lower
Speaker 1: forty eight states. We're not talking at all, that's all.
Speaker 1: And they're being hunted down. Montana and Idaho alone pass
Speaker 1: legislation to incentivize the killing of between eighty five and
Speaker 1: nine of their wolf populations. It's the cattle, I think.
Speaker 1: Sitting where we are, it can be a little hard
Speaker 1: to understand when you look at the data. Wolves are
Speaker 1: responsible for less than one percent of unwanted deaths of
Speaker 1: cattle that's unwanted, that includes disease, sickness, birds of prey,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, wolves are responsible for one percent,
Speaker 1: and the data really doesn't actually support um. You know
Speaker 1: what's happening here. And frankly, it's not a zero sum game.
Speaker 1: It's not kill wolves, protect cattle, protect you know, keep
Speaker 1: the wolves. You know, all the cattle are going to
Speaker 1: get eaten. There's really really good mechan isms you have,
Speaker 1: whether it's fencing, flags, lights, uh what do they call livestock,
Speaker 1: guardian dogs, all of these things that work and allow
Speaker 1: you to actually coexist with these animals who are incredibly
Speaker 1: important for our ecosystem. You know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: really major forces working against wolves. You know, whether it's
Speaker 1: the cattleman kind of lobby or the n R A
Speaker 1: UM or hunting associations UM, and there's not that many
Speaker 1: you know groups or I guess a lobby UM really
Speaker 1: speaking for wolves, and you know they need our voices.
Speaker 1: So that's why the campaign has been so great, to
Speaker 1: really elevate what's already been out there among many conservation groups,
Speaker 1: but to bring it to really people across all different functions.
Speaker 1: So lawyers, you have, the artists, you have you know,
Speaker 1: just normally scary and statistic books mentioning the wonderful wolf
Speaker 1: population and now Yellowstone and yellow just to elevate this
Speaker 1: and and give everyone an idea of what's really happening
Speaker 1: and hopefully um, you know, really the roadmap they need
Speaker 1: to use their voice and create change. So you co
Speaker 1: founded this grit this group. Well, actually my mom co
Speaker 1: founded this and I kind of got sucked in, so
Speaker 1: it's kind of a funny story. So you know, my
Speaker 1: mom is a very passion environmentalist. I I am too,
Speaker 1: and you know she saw what happened after these hunts
Speaker 1: and saw what was going on. Mom is Leslie Atwood,
Speaker 1: who is a neighbor of mine here in Bedford, New York,
Speaker 1: and uh. And she is a passionate woman in many, many,
Speaker 1: many different fields. Absolutely, and you she saw what was
Speaker 1: going on, it was like, wow, you know, we need
Speaker 1: to kind of taken out of the box approach. Can
Speaker 1: we all speak in one voice? All these little NGOs,
Speaker 1: all these groups that are doing such great work on
Speaker 1: the ground. We're stronger together. You know, we are going
Speaker 1: to you know, at the risk of stealing someone's phrase
Speaker 1: over there, you know we are we are able to
Speaker 1: speak in one voice and it is much more impactful.
Speaker 1: So I kind of got sucked in because I was
Speaker 1: going to, you know, help get our our campaign firm,
Speaker 1: test strategy set up, get a social media expert who
Speaker 1: you would love, by the way, Brandon Kennedy. He comes
Speaker 1: from a fashion background to actually look at things a
Speaker 1: little bit differently. So I was gonna help the team
Speaker 1: set up. And as I learned more and more about
Speaker 1: this issue and how important wolves are, I just couldn't.
Speaker 1: I couldn't step away so out of outside of my
Speaker 1: day job, this is this is what we do. What
Speaker 1: about you, Maggie, how did you get involved with this campaign? Well,
Speaker 1: we're practically neighbors with with Jim and Leslie Um and Samantha. So, um,
Speaker 1: we've known them for quite a bit. In fact, we
Speaker 1: had a wolf celebrate his fifteenth birthday um at the restaurant. Gosh,
Speaker 1: some handful of years ago. Um, but it was quite
Speaker 1: a turnout, but people showing up to celebrate with a
Speaker 1: big meaty steak and people still talk about it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: still talk about that. So this is one of the
Speaker 1: wolves from the contribution. Yes, his name was after he
Speaker 1: since passed away. He passed away, um a few years ago,
Speaker 1: but um, but boy it was and he was famous.
Speaker 1: He was a beautiful Yeah. I got to talk to
Speaker 1: him a couple of times. Did But really I just
Speaker 1: appreciated new new strength and new kind of um energy
Speaker 1: coming into the fight for wolves. So I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: the more the merrier, and you know, the strength of
Speaker 1: the wolf is the pack. And to have the Realist
Speaker 1: Campaign kind of joined this effort, I just thought it
Speaker 1: was great and so I want to do anything I
Speaker 1: could do to help and and it's been really fun collaboration. Well,
Speaker 1: there are many threatened endangered species of animals. Why are
Speaker 1: wolves so important? Do you know what a keystone is?
Speaker 1: So keystone species plays the exact same role in the
Speaker 1: ecosystem where they basically punch above their weight in terms
Speaker 1: of the effects they have on the entire environment. And
Speaker 1: wolves are exactly like that. If you look at the
Speaker 1: reintroduction to Yellowstone that happened in the nineties, UM, what
Speaker 1: you saw coming out of that was wolves actually are
Speaker 1: creating this environment where you know they're they're eating elk, yes,
Speaker 1: but they're actually making the elk herds move along more quickly,
Speaker 1: which meant the elk stopped to browsing. Vegetation, allowed the
Speaker 1: beavers to come back, allowed um erosion to stop alongside
Speaker 1: the streams, and really you know, allowed these fish to
Speaker 1: come back. So like all of these as you call
Speaker 1: like a trophic cascade effect happened within the ecosystem that
Speaker 1: was really due to these wolves coming back. Wolves are
Speaker 1: critical for healthy ecosystem. Like I like that analogy to
Speaker 1: the keystone of a building I have. I have keystones
Speaker 1: in my arches of the nail on the No, you
Speaker 1: don't want to lose the keystone because everything comes tumbling down. Exactly.
Speaker 1: So the ecosystem that exists in the wild in the
Speaker 1: United States UM is fragile, becoming more and more fragile
Speaker 1: with the expansion of the gas lines with the whether
Speaker 1: the horrible climate crisis that we're experiencing right now and
Speaker 1: probably forever henceforth, don't you think? And so disbelievers, people
Speaker 1: who don't see a climate crisis or don't see the
Speaker 1: what's happening to the wildlife in the United States? How
Speaker 1: can how can we How how powerful can this group
Speaker 1: be to to make people pay attention? What can you
Speaker 1: do and how can we help? As individuals? That's a
Speaker 1: great question, I would say as individuals, you know, the
Speaker 1: first step is awareness and education, right and then going
Speaker 1: to take action. Realists Wolves dot org. You can send
Speaker 1: letters to your representatives, you can share on social media
Speaker 1: from at Realist Wolves campaign, and frankly opportunities UM with
Speaker 1: with folks like yourself, Martha, who are You're You're a
Speaker 1: keystone in your own way, right you punch above your
Speaker 1: weight in terms of all the people that you reach
Speaker 1: using your voice as an incredible opportunity to UM, you know,
Speaker 1: shed light on this issue and let folks know like
Speaker 1: there is there is a path here. The path here
Speaker 1: is to get wolves relisted. That decision lies with the
Speaker 1: buying in administration and they are currently conducting what's called
Speaker 1: a status review. So it started in September of one.
Speaker 1: They said they're gonna take one year because of all
Speaker 1: the hunting. They were going to make an assessment in
Speaker 1: the US Fish and Wildlife Service December. It is they're late,
Speaker 1: We're waiting. They're late, and they have to know that
Speaker 1: we're paying attention. So every call you make, every letter
Speaker 1: you send, shows them that we're paying attention and that
Speaker 1: this is an issue that you know, I think the public,
Speaker 1: you know, really should care about. You know, six thousand
Speaker 1: wolves may not seem like such a big deal in
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things, but every little bit helps everything.
Speaker 1: I'm shocked and in the lower forty eight. Yes, are
Speaker 1: they protected in Canada? Canada is facing many of the
Speaker 1: similar issues. Yeah, there's a the Gonquin wolf is some
Speaker 1: protections just Alon, Yes, just north of Aspen the Eastern
Speaker 1: are Algonquin wolf. But generally they're it's pretty much open
Speaker 1: season on wolves. I consider them gorgeous creatures. I love
Speaker 1: dogs that look like wolves, and I think about wolves
Speaker 1: and I think about how badly they've been treated by
Speaker 1: so many people. Farmers have done terrible things to wolves.
Speaker 1: When one of the things I can't do I can
Speaker 1: stand is to read some of the bad things people
Speaker 1: have done to them. They're not they're not humans, and
Speaker 1: they don't know that they're being you know why they're
Speaker 1: being tortured. Uh, and they tortured them. So what can
Speaker 1: we do? Just letters? Letters outraging about this outrage? And
Speaker 1: also like do you make do you make a lot
Speaker 1: of personal appearances talking talking about wolves two groups? Uh?
Speaker 1: You know, to some degree, I think at anything we
Speaker 1: can do to get into the public conversation is what
Speaker 1: we want to do. And you know you mentioned their animals,
Speaker 1: they don't have a voice. It's our obligation and responsibility
Speaker 1: to actually be the voice when we can. Well, it's
Speaker 1: like the octopus. I mean, I did you watch My
Speaker 1: Octopus Teachers? Did you watch that? And yet every single
Speaker 1: restaurant that's had octopus on the menu still has octopus
Speaker 1: on the menu. I will not eat octopus. I mean
Speaker 1: I never eat it anyway, because because I've always loved octopus,
Speaker 1: but as a creature. But it's just incredible, They're just
Speaker 1: they don't It doesn't make any difference. And that was
Speaker 1: a powerful movie, powerful documentary, and the difference between octopus
Speaker 1: and wolves is that the octopus doesn't isn't surrounded already
Speaker 1: in this cloak of untruths and myths and fables that
Speaker 1: have been, you know, around for centuries. So beyond giving
Speaker 1: the wolf of voice and asking people to protect wolves
Speaker 1: and care about wolves, we have a lot of unraveling
Speaker 1: to do, um to change perceptions of the wolf, because
Speaker 1: already people have really poor the big bad wolf and
Speaker 1: little red riding hood. I mean, this is why this
Speaker 1: was brand even our language. You know, just just if
Speaker 1: you open the New York Times on a given day,
Speaker 1: you're probably going to see some Wolf of Wall Street
Speaker 1: or lone wolf terrorist or really just we have to
Speaker 1: kind of unleash some of these negative connectations that we
Speaker 1: connect to the word wolf um and kind of start
Speaker 1: from scratch that people can understand what they really are,
Speaker 1: their wild animals living their own like wild lives, but
Speaker 1: their family, you know, just trying to do and survive
Speaker 1: and thrive on the landscape. So incomes another canine. I
Speaker 1: guess it's a canine, the coyote that lives all around
Speaker 1: us here in it's just your county. What do you
Speaker 1: think about them? I love coyotes. The thing about coyotes
Speaker 1: that I find most remarkable is that just like wolves,
Speaker 1: they can persecuted for centuries and they're thriving. And now
Speaker 1: they're not only thriving, but they're all four the forty
Speaker 1: nine of our fifty states, so every state except Hawaii.
Speaker 1: So in terms of being outfoxed, the coyote is remarkable. Um, However,
Speaker 1: still we're killing the hundreds of thousands. I have a
Speaker 1: pack of coyotes on my property. They couldn't just well
Speaker 1: be wolves. I would have a very hard time shooting
Speaker 1: a coyote. Yeah, and yet the coyotes are wreaking havoc
Speaker 1: on the farm. I mean, here, I am living in
Speaker 1: this this little world, here, this little hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: acre world of mine, wondering what the heck am I
Speaker 1: going to do with these beautiful creatures? They walk with
Speaker 1: me when I ride my horse, the coyotes. It's interesting horse.
Speaker 1: I talked to them. They listen. And yet there they
Speaker 1: go at lunch time not long ago, and ate six
Speaker 1: of my most beautiful peacocks. I'm sorry about they did.
Speaker 1: They just ate them at daytime, at noon when everybody
Speaker 1: else was having their lunch. They had their lunch, and
Speaker 1: uh and and then I called the town. I said,
Speaker 1: is there some way to and I'm fenced, but coyotes
Speaker 1: have their way of getting in and over and under fences.
Speaker 1: Have to set something up for you because there are
Speaker 1: lots of really neat tools to use, um that can
Speaker 1: be proactive, non lethal to help the turn. Are you
Speaker 1: doing that from people being beleaguered by wolves chew out
Speaker 1: in the West. We don't do it personally at the
Speaker 1: Wolf Conservation Center because we're here wolves, but definitely that
Speaker 1: works would be very good because I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: about to go out and shoot the coyotes. And actually,
Speaker 1: you say they could be wolves, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of they could be wolves, they actually are a little
Speaker 1: bit wolf. I know they are because yeah, well the
Speaker 1: coyotes we have in this area are called Eastern coyotes. Well,
Speaker 1: we had a pack of seven babies last year, and
Speaker 1: I've watched them grow up, and some of them are
Speaker 1: really dark, almost black, and some are kind of a
Speaker 1: golden color. And there they are, and you know, you
Speaker 1: you look at I go out with flashlights at night
Speaker 1: and find them. And but what do we do My
Speaker 1: my domesticated animals cannot roam my dogs. I'm not worried
Speaker 1: about my dogs. And funny because my dogs would would
Speaker 1: make mincemeat of the coyotes, I think. But I don't
Speaker 1: want my dogs to have the taste of blood like that.
Speaker 1: I just don't want them to So I want them
Speaker 1: to get in a fight. But what do you do?
Speaker 1: What do you do? What do you do? Um? There
Speaker 1: are things just most A lot of it's based on fear. Um.
Speaker 1: A lot of animals, wolves, coyotes have something called neophobia,
Speaker 1: fear of anything new. So it could be flattery, like
Speaker 1: you know, kind of flags or ribbons that are on
Speaker 1: fence line or noisemakers, um, you know, just anything that's
Speaker 1: going to shock them so they don't feel comfortable. So
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean the dogs are pretty noisy, they're
Speaker 1: not afraid of people's I'm so they probably thought they
Speaker 1: were like toys. I mean, big giant peas are not.
Speaker 1: They're as big as the coyotes, if not bigger. Quite
Speaker 1: a snack. It was really something. But back to back
Speaker 1: to tell us about the gray wolf, because I think
Speaker 1: everybody says that's really what we're trying to trying to
Speaker 1: protect the most now since there's only six thousand of them. Um,
Speaker 1: and there's many millions of I bet there's millions of coyotes, right, millions,
Speaker 1: So what about the gray wolf? I think I think
Speaker 1: the one thing I would say on the last point though,
Speaker 1: is that, like the conflict reduction methods are very similar.
Speaker 1: When you're dealing with predators. It really is about you know,
Speaker 1: securing as much as you can, but you can't secure
Speaker 1: everything right, So it is lights. It is like a
Speaker 1: livestyle guardian, dogs, range writers, various things that work. And
Speaker 1: I think what we want to highlight is there is
Speaker 1: a middle ground here, right, there are solutions, and frankly,
Speaker 1: you know, in my opinion, those are the things that
Speaker 1: we really should be funding at the state level to
Speaker 1: try to coexist with these beautiful creatures here that people
Speaker 1: all were going to be overrun by wolves. I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's six thousand of them. I think we're really far
Speaker 1: off from that. We're going in the wrong direction. But
Speaker 1: even where there's like all of these elk, all of
Speaker 1: this food, all of this environment, it's hard being a wolf.
Speaker 1: You have to chase down huge prey, very high mortality
Speaker 1: rates and um. And so they've actually really stabilized, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, sadly, last season there were twenty five Yellowstone
Speaker 1: wolves who were killed. That's the population. There are only
Speaker 1: a d and twenty five in the park, which is
Speaker 1: where they were lured out of the park and shot.
Speaker 1: How were they lured The new laws that were passed
Speaker 1: in just in the past couple of years UM allowed
Speaker 1: baiting for the first time. So they had people baiting
Speaker 1: the you know, right beyond the kind of boundary, that
Speaker 1: invisible boundary. UM would learn them from the safety of
Speaker 1: the park and making calls like anything they could do
Speaker 1: to get the wolves out. And these are rules. By
Speaker 1: the way, most wouls are not accustomed to people, but
Speaker 1: people come to Yellowstone to sea wolves. Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: it Like I think there's two million dollars per year
Speaker 1: in tourism revenue of people coming to see wolves in
Speaker 1: this area, and so they're kind of used to people.
Speaker 1: They're not expecting this invisible boundary. You cross it, you're
Speaker 1: going to be shot and killed. How terribly unfair is
Speaker 1: that it is? And that's in Yellowstone where there is
Speaker 1: no management, there's no lethal management to control their populations,
Speaker 1: and that population has stabilized over the years. And the
Speaker 1: same thing in Wisconsin, where they've been protected for um
Speaker 1: a handful of years, and during that time without having
Speaker 1: these state state sanction hunts, they saw that the population
Speaker 1: reached carrying capacity. That means it really was able to
Speaker 1: kind of control itself and has stabilized UM, which demonstrated
Speaker 1: that there's no in terms of population control. The wolves
Speaker 1: that they're set, that's not a problem. They can do
Speaker 1: that without our help. How big is a gray wolf ah, Um,
Speaker 1: Well they vary. There are different kinds of gray wolves. UM.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people think from fairy tales or
Speaker 1: movies like Twilight what have you, that there are these monstrous,
Speaker 1: huge animals. UM. Like in the Great Lakes area of Minnesota, Wisconsin, Wish, Michigan,
Speaker 1: a female might be seventy to ninety maybe hundred pounds.
Speaker 1: A male might get to a hundred ten pounds UM.
Speaker 1: In the Northern Rockies Great and that Great Jans, they're
Speaker 1: like a giant German shipherds. Yeah, they get a little
Speaker 1: bit bigger in the in the northern Rocky states of
Speaker 1: like Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, UM, a male might be
Speaker 1: a hundred fifteen pounds UM. They can be bigger. There's
Speaker 1: been a few in Yellowstone that were over a hundred
Speaker 1: and THIRTYE knows all of this intimately because as director
Speaker 1: of the Wolf Conservation Center here in South Salem. How
Speaker 1: many wolves do you have there? Now? We have thirty two?
Speaker 1: Oh wow, you have a lot more. Yes, last time
Speaker 1: I was there was a couple of years ago, and
Speaker 1: now you have thirty two. What kind of wolves? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: there are different kinds. We have um two wolves that
Speaker 1: we just call a kind of our generic which sounds terrible,
Speaker 1: but gray wolves and they're who, um, the wolves that
Speaker 1: helped teach people, so there aren't bassids or education wolves.
Speaker 1: And their names are Laywa and Nicai. And then we
Speaker 1: have ten critically endangered red wolves, which is a totally
Speaker 1: different species of wolf um that are currently living only
Speaker 1: here in the north or southeast um in the state
Speaker 1: of North Carolina. And then we have twenty Mexican gray wolves,
Speaker 1: which are gray wolves but a different subspecies of gray wolf.
Speaker 1: And they're about um, we have twenty of those and
Speaker 1: they're about two hundred little fewer than two hundred in
Speaker 1: the southwest United States. They're all in pretty bad shape
Speaker 1: numbers wise. Yeah. What does the what does your conservation
Speaker 1: center do for these wolves? Sure? Yeah, so we Obviously
Speaker 1: we house them, we take care of them, we nurture them. UM.
Speaker 1: But we're really teaching people about them. So we do
Speaker 1: a lot of education programs. We have people on site,
Speaker 1: we do remote programs, we do scientific webinars. We really
Speaker 1: try to get that education at every level. How big
Speaker 1: an area do you have for them to roam? We
Speaker 1: have thirty four acres right now. Are they kept separate
Speaker 1: or are they enclosures? It's they're separated by family groups.
Speaker 1: So we have some families are just a pair of wolves. UM.
Speaker 1: We have some families that are quite larger, up to
Speaker 1: eight wolves, UM, that are multigenerational. But wolves ultimately live
Speaker 1: or belong in the wild. So even you know, if
Speaker 1: we have an enclosure that's say two acres or more,
Speaker 1: it's it's they're dynamic creatures. They belong in the wild,
Speaker 1: so keeping them in captivity is really difficult. UM. We
Speaker 1: have no wolves wild in this area, do no. UM.
Speaker 1: There has been the occasional wolf that's gotten into the Northeast,
Speaker 1: likely from Canada UM usually UM and even into New
Speaker 1: York UM. But those animals are usually coming via like
Speaker 1: dead wolves. That's the only way we find out about
Speaker 1: them because we have really robust coyote hunting throughout the Northeast.
Speaker 1: People like, oh, I killed a really large coyote. They
Speaker 1: do some genetic tests and confirmed that it was a wolf,
Speaker 1: and that's happened a couple of times, so they're really
Speaker 1: close by. But there's no populations just kind of known,
Speaker 1: no proven populations to be here right now, what's the
Speaker 1: lifespan of a gray wolf? Um? It really depends, you know.
Speaker 1: Samantha touched on this earlier. How living in the wild
Speaker 1: is hard even before you put the kind of the
Speaker 1: human component in there. But um, you know, most pups
Speaker 1: don't even survive to adulthood. About sixty percent of pups
Speaker 1: UM die within the first year, usually of starvation. UM.
Speaker 1: And during the late summer I think is the hardest time,
Speaker 1: early fall. UM. But if they get past that that
Speaker 1: first year and make it to two years old, they'll
Speaker 1: likely make it maybe two four to six years old.
Speaker 1: If there's no you know, hunting UM. So those you
Speaker 1: know that the things that we can really be an
Speaker 1: issue would be disease, UM starvation usually just for the
Speaker 1: youngsters UM and UH and actually other wolves. So wolves
Speaker 1: are a top predator, but they're also have lots of
Speaker 1: competitors out there, and wolves will compete with mountain lions,
Speaker 1: wolves will compete with um bears, they will compete with
Speaker 1: coyotes to a degree um, but they also compete with
Speaker 1: other wolves. So they're very much like people and that
Speaker 1: they have their home turf kind of like their their
Speaker 1: area and they're going to defend their territory um from
Speaker 1: their neighbors. Fox fox don't really pose much of a
Speaker 1: competition risk for wolves. Their pack animals wolves yep. So
Speaker 1: how big is a pack um? That varies, But basically,
Speaker 1: you know what a wolf pack is essentially just a
Speaker 1: family um. Even you know, the alpha male alpha female
Speaker 1: kind of terms have been pretty much uh you know,
Speaker 1: aren't used so much in there in the wolf circles
Speaker 1: these days because really just alpha the alpha male would
Speaker 1: be the dad, the help of femails, the mom, and
Speaker 1: they are the bosses because that's how it goes parent
Speaker 1: that's how it should go, right. So, and then they
Speaker 1: have their offspring once a year every year and they
Speaker 1: will make up the rest of the pack. Sometimes a
Speaker 1: wolf that's not related will join the pack um. But
Speaker 1: they're dynamic x you have, just like with our families
Speaker 1: you know, they kind of leave the nest at some
Speaker 1: point and start their own families. So UM, so that's
Speaker 1: why the numbers are a bit you know, it changes.
Speaker 1: And also had a lot of babies that the we
Speaker 1: have we actually we're hoping to have some more babies
Speaker 1: this spring. Um. But last spring we had um one
Speaker 1: letter born Mexican Mexican gray wolves. How many this letter
Speaker 1: was five healthy and one of them actually was released
Speaker 1: into the wild, which is very exciting and um, but
Speaker 1: the largest litter repent at the Wolf center was a
Speaker 1: litter of nine and nine yeah, nine and um. We
Speaker 1: decided that we wanted to name it um name each
Speaker 1: member after really important UM players on the Yankees and uh,
Speaker 1: and we thought, oh, how fun because I make up
Speaker 1: baseball team and so we're trying to do that. And
Speaker 1: then we just I had last minute and I hope
Speaker 1: you have an errand well we were. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of debate, robust ongoing debate about foo should these
Speaker 1: Yankees be and and actually we decided on second thought,
Speaker 1: we'll name them after female conservationists, because of course Yankees
Speaker 1: female conservationists. UM. But it worked out for the best
Speaker 1: because the boys from that letter were actually transferred to
Speaker 1: a different facility in Boston, And if they were named
Speaker 1: after the Yankees, it would have been nobody would have liked.
Speaker 1: So female conservationists one out. So wolves, what what do
Speaker 1: wolves in the wild each? What are they looking for? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So wolves? Um, their menu will vary depending on where
Speaker 1: they live, Like in Yellowstone, they're going to be hunting
Speaker 1: animals like elk um dear bison some of sometimes it's
Speaker 1: a little bit harder for them. But there's one pack
Speaker 1: called the Molly's Pack for years that was their expertise,
Speaker 1: was hunting bison effectively. Um. They'll also eat smallers like
Speaker 1: beaver hair. You know, really it depends. It's going to
Speaker 1: take the whole family group though, in order to really
Speaker 1: chase down a successfully hunted animal like an elk or
Speaker 1: a bison. Um, those other animals would be more of
Speaker 1: like a single snack. What's the ideal habitat for the
Speaker 1: gray wolf? Is it? I mean, do they seem to
Speaker 1: be rather adaptable? They are very adaptable. Um, And ideal
Speaker 1: habitat is a habitat that has prey. Honestly, that's going
Speaker 1: to be the biggest thing. Are they looking for possums
Speaker 1: and skunks and things like that too. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: like even um like the Arctic the Arctic gray wolf.
Speaker 1: Let's say, um, while they're they're really large, you know, um,
Speaker 1: caribou migrations, and there's the musk ox, but otherwise it's
Speaker 1: pretty barren UM. So they're gonna be hunting things like
Speaker 1: Lenning's and Arctic fox. UM. Really the smaller prey than
Speaker 1: those are the ones where they won't rely on the
Speaker 1: rest of the family members necessarily. But because food is
Speaker 1: a bit more scarce, UM, they have a large your
Speaker 1: territory size because they have to roam farther distances justifine food. UM,
Speaker 1: they tend to have smaller litters as well. So the
Speaker 1: question is what's the difference between being endangered and being threatened.
Speaker 1: Is there a distinct difference? Yeah, I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: endangered when when something when a species is designated as
Speaker 1: an endangered species, they get the maximum protections, right, can't
Speaker 1: hunt them like you have to kind of preserve their habitat,
Speaker 1: and and endangered means well they're at risk of going extinct.
Speaker 1: Threatens It is kind of like the next level, which
Speaker 1: is like yo, you think they're going to become endangered.
Speaker 1: So by the time they're endangered is really dire. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they're now endangered. Yeah, seriously, Yeah they are. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you look at what's happening with these hunts and
Speaker 1: all the barbaric methods that are being used, and frankly,
Speaker 1: like you know, there are groups and states they're paying
Speaker 1: bound teams, they are incentivizing hunters to go out and
Speaker 1: cobols they're gonna pay in Idaho they'll pay between five
Speaker 1: hundred dollars per wolf. And there's no i mean berries everywhere,
Speaker 1: but like there's not a buch limitation in terms of
Speaker 1: what what hunters can go out. They could go get
Speaker 1: twenty wolves and it's really it's really slipped into the
Speaker 1: dark ages and and no better. I mean, we used
Speaker 1: to have likely more than a quarter of a million
Speaker 1: wolves living coast to coast no longer. And really it
Speaker 1: was through you know, these these predator eradication programs UM
Speaker 1: that used poison and bounties and trapping and snares, UM
Speaker 1: that brought them down to just a few isolated, you know,
Speaker 1: almost family groups, mostly in the Great Lakes area and
Speaker 1: they were gone everywhere else. UM. So then you know,
Speaker 1: with UM, the Endangered Species Act being passed in ninety three. Um,
Speaker 1: we stopped killing wolves and we started to protect wolves.
Speaker 1: And at the height, how many wolves have we counted?
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're if there's six thousand, now, what
Speaker 1: was the most we ever counted? Um, well they don't
Speaker 1: they weren't counting, but they're estimating at least a quarter
Speaker 1: of a million. Really, and that's when was that. That
Speaker 1: was really before we colonized and started these massive programs
Speaker 1: to just get rid of most of the predators. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just like you know, late eighteen hundreds, I would say,
Speaker 1: So it was a long time ago when the bison
Speaker 1: were running free. It's a lot always different, and there
Speaker 1: were millions of bison and now they've been reduced to
Speaker 1: such a pitiful number. Two. No, it's true, it's um.
Speaker 1: So the Endangered Species list that was what year were
Speaker 1: they removed from it? So they were removed from it.
Speaker 1: It's gone back and forth, kind of a legal battle.
Speaker 1: But they were initially removed like in two thousand and eleven,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of gone back and forth in different
Speaker 1: places for a little while now. Um. But while it
Speaker 1: has gone back and forth, it's been a little bit confusing. UM.
Speaker 1: But we've seen what happens when there is wolf hunting,
Speaker 1: and then we've seen when wolves are afforded protections. Really
Speaker 1: a lot of those populations stabilize, which really takes away,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the reasons they're the justifications, um
Speaker 1: for these hunts in the first place. Is there legal
Speaker 1: hunting anywhere in the United States? Where um, legal hunting
Speaker 1: right now is in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana. And that's
Speaker 1: where again, like Samantha said, they're using some of these
Speaker 1: you know bounties. You know, bounties aren't legal. I mean,
Speaker 1: essentially we we kind of got over bounties. You know,
Speaker 1: we celebrated the Endangered Species Act. It's fifty year anniversary
Speaker 1: is next year. I mean, it's one of the most
Speaker 1: uh successful environmental reinstated. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think it's unfair. I think it's very unfairly. But
Speaker 1: wolves have become sort of an emblem of this political
Speaker 1: out all between environmentalists and you know, we don't want
Speaker 1: to be told what to do at the state level.
Speaker 1: And the problem is it really is not the wolves
Speaker 1: are caught in the middle. It's not about the science
Speaker 1: or the data behind it, because all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you're seeing a lot of emotion um being pulled into
Speaker 1: this issue. Where yet you look at the data, you
Speaker 1: look at how many cattle are being killed by wolves.
Speaker 1: You've got Montana, the state of Montana is being overrun
Speaker 1: by elk right now, to the point where it's a
Speaker 1: big problem that everyone knows about. You have a natural
Speaker 1: solution here, and yet you're out there killing your natural solution.
Speaker 1: At the same time this endangered Species list, who else
Speaker 1: is on it? Oh gosh, lots of critters? Um, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it depends. You know. Again, different parts of the
Speaker 1: country almost has different kinds of protection. But in terms
Speaker 1: of predators, you have the grizzly bear that's currently still
Speaker 1: being protected. Um, those different kinds of wolves, lots of birds, birds,
Speaker 1: and that that the Endangered Species Act is really responsible
Speaker 1: for one of the greatest conservation success stories, the emblem
Speaker 1: of the United States. We had our first sighting here
Speaker 1: at the farm last week. We got a picture of
Speaker 1: a bold eagle circling the whole farm, looking looking around.
Speaker 1: It was so exciting because I am not in the
Speaker 1: twenty years I've been here seeing an eagle. Have you
Speaker 1: seen one here? I haven't, but I live over in
Speaker 1: Washington and they're like a pest out there. They're gorgeous,
Speaker 1: they are, you know, one of the things they actually
Speaker 1: still have some protections under what's called the Migratory Bird
Speaker 1: Protection Act. All of a sudden, you see wolves they're
Speaker 1: dealists that they have no protection. So, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's like a link between those two,
Speaker 1: but certainly something worth considering. Going from zero to do
Speaker 1: both of you go to Washington and make your case.
Speaker 1: Do you actually go in front of of the Congress
Speaker 1: or the people that the committees in charge of this
Speaker 1: this act. A key part of the campaign is really
Speaker 1: talking too elected officials, and we do have have some
Speaker 1: some of the members of our team are lobbyists who
Speaker 1: are going and doing that and making it clear why
Speaker 1: why this is important. And frankly, like I think, if
Speaker 1: you take a step back, you look at the data,
Speaker 1: healthy ecosystems are something we can all get behind. So
Speaker 1: what has been the public response to your campaign for
Speaker 1: realist wolves. Oh, it's been awesome, it's been great. It's
Speaker 1: it's um so awesome. And I think the thing is,
Speaker 1: it's like most people just don't know how do you
Speaker 1: break through and talk to people. We've done a couple
Speaker 1: of really cool things. We did this collaboration with Jim Bacher,
Speaker 1: who's this pothole mosaic artists, so he put in these potholes.
Speaker 1: That's a realist in d C. We put up billboards.
Speaker 1: We collaborated with Jason Momoa and Sender Films on a
Speaker 1: public service spot. Um. All of these things are you know,
Speaker 1: incremental grains of sand that are building up into a
Speaker 1: mountain of change. And so it's been really great. But
Speaker 1: I would say probably every day I talked to someone,
Speaker 1: whether it's at work or a friend, they're like, they
Speaker 1: didn't know about this issue. To the wolves, like the
Speaker 1: cold weather, they love the cold yes, And do they
Speaker 1: have dens? Do they go into den's at night? They do?
Speaker 1: And you know, we're tear. I would hate to be
Speaker 1: a wolf with the wolf setter sometimes just because we
Speaker 1: have webcams everywhere, So we have webcams and their enclosures
Speaker 1: and also in their dens. So unbeknownst to the wolves,
Speaker 1: we have an unlimited uh number of like a global
Speaker 1: audience basically sneaking into their dens at night to watch.
Speaker 1: How do how do we access that um at our
Speaker 1: website as just and why wolf dot org. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I encourage I wanted to go check out the wolves.
Speaker 1: Webcams are so cool. Yeah, so that's that's important. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can watch so many animals by webcam, and it
Speaker 1: is extraordinary that we can. We can be nosy in
Speaker 1: the best possible way. We are now you know we
Speaker 1: are nosy. Um. So, wolves were some of the first
Speaker 1: animals shield by the Natured Species Act and the decision, well,
Speaker 1: we we've discussed this have been politically charged ever since.
Speaker 1: And and how do you think, how do you really
Speaker 1: think we can change this? We need a president that cares,
Speaker 1: you know, voice, a voice that cares and is outspoken
Speaker 1: and who's ready to be brave about an issue that
Speaker 1: is is surprisingly difficult. And I think we've been surprised
Speaker 1: at how difficult it has been to push this administration,
Speaker 1: which generally is very science driven, until they can actually
Speaker 1: come up with a plan to meet in the middle
Speaker 1: and figure out how do we live with wolves? They
Speaker 1: need protections and the administration needs to recognize that and
Speaker 1: restore them. Well, I really think that you have to
Speaker 1: go out to Montana, to the Yellowstone Ranch and talk
Speaker 1: to Kevin and his producers, and and uh and make it,
Speaker 1: make it even a bigger subject on such a program
Speaker 1: like that, and get and get get some more programs
Speaker 1: about wolves. Because as as you say, they have been,
Speaker 1: they have been made menaces, they have been made evil,
Speaker 1: they have been miscast. Miscast is the best word. They've
Speaker 1: been miscast and in American history. And um, and I think, uh,
Speaker 1: the voice, your voices have to be heard bigger and
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger. Well, we have some very exciting ideas
Speaker 1: as much as you want to lean in with us here,
Speaker 1: and um, I mean, this is just an incredible opportunity
Speaker 1: to do that. Thank you very much for educating us
Speaker 1: on such an important topic and these very very beautiful creatures.
Speaker 1: To find out more. Again, remember everyone, you can save
Speaker 1: the wolves by visiting Realist r E. L I S T.
Speaker 1: Wolves dot org and use the hashtag realist wolves. And
Speaker 1: to learn more about wolves in general, visit New York,
Speaker 1: n Y wolf dot org. Those are important addresses for
Speaker 1: you to know. I have been instructed that before we're
Speaker 1: done here that Maggie should teach Martha how to howl
Speaker 1: like a wolf. Oh you can you have? Well really
Speaker 1: and Maggie's name is Maggie yes, which is so weird,
Speaker 1: but my name is My name is Stuart art on
Speaker 1: the artists of Stuart O Good, Okay, blow out the mic, Maggie,
Speaker 1: don't get scared everybody because oh pretty legit